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Sir Stealth
02-16-2008, 03:24 PM
http://www.sacbee.com/749/story/717681.html

pratt '04
02-16-2008, 03:39 PM
What would this mean for Shel? I don't know much about the Kings this season.

CameronBornAndBred
02-16-2008, 03:54 PM
He gets to meet up with Dahntay, and hopefully get some minutes. I don't know what the big man situation is in Sacremento, but it can't be as crowded as Atlanta. He'll have to pay a little bit more to see Candace dunk now, though.

Indoor66
02-16-2008, 03:59 PM
Sacramento Roster prior to trade:

Team Roster
NO. NAME POS AGE HT WT COLLEGE 2008 SALARY
3 Shareef Abdur-Rahim PF 31 6-9 245 California $5,800,000
93 Ron Artest SF 28 6-7 246 St. John's $7,400,000
10 Mike Bibby PG 29 6-2 190 Arizona $13,500,000
8 Quincy Douby PG 23 6-3 175 Rutgers $1,333,920
32 Francisco Garcia SF 26 6-7 195 Louisville $1,168,800
31 Spencer Hawes C 19 7-0 230 Washington $2,028,600
7 Dahntay Jones SG 27 6-6 210 Duke $584,757
23 Kevin Martin SG 25 6-7 185 Western Carolina $1,808,121
52 Brad Miller C 31 7-0 261 Purdue $10,500,000
33 Mikki Moore PF 32 7-0 223 Nebraska $5,356,000
15 John Salmons SG 28 6-6 207 Miami (FL) $4,752,000
9 Kenny Thomas PF 30 6-7 245 New Mexico $7,875,000
19 Beno Udrih PG 25 6-3 200 $561,544
30 Justin Williams C 23 6-10 225 Wyoming $862,456
Coach: Reggie Theus
Average Age: 26.9
Average Height: 6-7
Average Weight: 216

OZZIE4DUKE
02-16-2008, 04:07 PM
What would this mean for Shel? I don't know much about the Kings this season.

It would mean that his commute to Knoxville to visit his sweetie (Candace Parker) would be a bit tougher. Hope it doesn't screw up his All-Star weekend visit with her.

Atlanta Duke
02-16-2008, 04:09 PM
This excerpt from an article on the trade in the Atlanta paper indicates Shelden is pretty much out of the Hawks rotation and that getting out of ATL at least may give Shelden a chance to play for his next contract:

Parting with Williams, the No. 5 pick in the 2006 NBA draft, ends his rather bizarre tenure with the Hawks.

Williams began his rookie year in the starting lineup for an injured Marvin Williams and finished it as the Rookie of the Month after a string of double-double performances seemed to boost his stock.

But he fell further out of coach Mike Woodson's playing rotation with the addition of the top 2007 draft pick Al Horford, who represented the Hawks here Friday night in the Rookie Challenge.

Adding insult to that fate, Williams was carjacked outside of his barbershop in December.

If he can't find a niche with the Kings, Shelden Williams will undoubtedly be viewed as a draft bust. The Hawks selected him one spot ahead of Portland's Brandon Roy, the 2006 Rookie of the Year, who is playing in Sunday's All-Star Game.

Williams averaged just 2.9 points and 2.9 rebounds in 11.4 minutes per game this season and 4.7 points and 4.6 rebounds in 116 career games with the Hawks.

Williams has another year left on his rookie deal that pays him $3.3 million a year. Moving him now allows him an opportunity to carve out space for himself in the league elsewhere.

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/sports/hawks/stories/2008/02/16/hawks_0218.html

BD80
02-16-2008, 04:16 PM
The Kings are weak and old at PF, and Mikki Moore has not been playing well - he only seems to play well when he is about to be a free agent

I don't know much about their style of play, but Artest is a good team defender which could meld with Shel's game. Brad Miller is a good passing center who likes the high post, so that could give Shel some opportunities underneath with his good hands.

Problem is, they are describing this as a deal with Bibby going for 4 guys with contracts that expire this year. Doesn't sound promising.

Could also be bad for Dahntay. The Kings are trading one player for 4, so a couple of players aren't going to be on the Kings roster.

billybreen
02-16-2008, 05:52 PM
Looks like the deal is done (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3249180).

Lavabe
02-16-2008, 05:57 PM
I am SOOOOO tired of the Atlanta media getting on Shelden's case, so now I look forward to highlights from Sacramento. I now have NO reason whatsoever to root for the Hawks.

365Duke
02-16-2008, 06:07 PM
I'm really happy for Shel also. I just hope this isn't the beginning of a journeyman venture:(

YmoBeThere
02-16-2008, 06:32 PM
I am SOOOOO tired of the Atlanta media getting on Shelden's case, so now I look forward to highlights from Sacramento. I now have NO reason whatsoever to root for the Hawks.

Was there ever a reason to root for the Hawks?

mgtr
02-16-2008, 06:36 PM
Oh, maybe there was a time. Before they were the Atlanta Hawks, they were the Chicago Blackhawks, and before that the Tri-City Blackhawks (Moline, Ill). That early team featured Don Otten at center. Never heard of him? I guess then there never has been a reason to root for this team.

Karl Beem
02-16-2008, 06:39 PM
Oh, maybe there was a time. Before they were the Atlanta Hawks, they were the Chicago Blackhawks, and before that the Tri-City Blackhawks (Moline, Ill). That early team featured Don Otten at center. Never heard of him? I guess then there never has been a reason to root for this team.

St Louis Hawks.

YmoBeThere
02-16-2008, 06:41 PM
St Louis Hawks.

Hmmm, interesting didn't know that. Ahhh, but still no reason...

luigi90
02-16-2008, 06:45 PM
this can only be a good move for williams..he was buried in atlanta...now he will get a chance to play i would think. Now we just need redick to get his shot.....

HumboldtDevil
02-16-2008, 07:03 PM
Should be good for Shelden, though he won't reunite with Dahntay because the Kings had to release D.J. to make room for all the players they got from Atlanta.

I won't pretend to be an expert on the Kings because I'm not an NBA fan, but my friend loves the Kings and my family lives about 35 min. from Arco so I've got some idea about the Kings. They relied on big guys that were more finesse players than tough players. When they were good in the early 2000's they got away with using Webber and Vidac inside, bringing guys like Scot Pollard off the bench to defend and rebound a little bit. Problem now is that they still have finesse guys inside when they need some muscle. Miller isn't tough, Kenny Thomas isn't either, Shareef certainly isn't, and Moore is a shotblocker.

I haven't seen the Kings play in a while, but Shelden shoul get some minutes to defend and rebound, if he can do that for them. I think getting out of Atlanta should give him a chance to start over someplace where the doghouse doesn't have his name on it.

Just too bad the Kings had to drop Dahntay to make the trade work.

Lavabe
02-16-2008, 07:14 PM
St Louis Hawks.

The St. Louis Spirits... THAT team I could pull for, with Costas calling games. He's also known for re-telling stories about Marvin Barnes, who refused to get on a plane that arrived at a time earlier than it departed (time zone shift). The Costas quote of Barnes was "I'm not getting on no da** time machine."

Classof06
02-16-2008, 07:20 PM
This is definitely good for Shelden. He should get the chance to show he belongs in the NBA, which he undoubtedly does.

sagegrouse
02-16-2008, 07:59 PM
The article linked on the Landlord Liberated story said that the Kings had asked for waivers on Dahntay Jones:

"Also on Saturday, the Kings requested waivers on forward Justin Williams and guard Dahntay Jones."

sagegrouse

_Gary
02-16-2008, 08:10 PM
Great news for Shelden! Now if we can only free JJ from the clutches of Orlando. I had a bad feeling it wasn't going to work out for him under Van Gundy.

Gary

mgtr
02-16-2008, 09:06 PM
St Louis Hawks.

Sorry, I left out a step.

Mudge
02-16-2008, 09:16 PM
Sacramento Roster prior to trade:

Team Roster
NO. NAME POS AGE HT WT COLLEGE 2008 SALARY
3 Shareef Abdur-Rahim PF 31 6-9 245 California $5,800,000
93 Ron Artest SF 28 6-7 246 St. John's $7,400,000
10 Mike Bibby PG 29 6-2 190 Arizona $13,500,000
8 Quincy Douby PG 23 6-3 175 Rutgers $1,333,920
32 Francisco Garcia SF 26 6-7 195 Louisville $1,168,800
31 Spencer Hawes C 19 7-0 230 Washington $2,028,600
7 Dahntay Jones SG 27 6-6 210 Duke $584,757
23 Kevin Martin SG 25 6-7 185 Western Carolina $1,808,121
52 Brad Miller C 31 7-0 261 Purdue $10,500,000
33 Mikki Moore PF 32 7-0 223 Nebraska $5,356,000
15 John Salmons SG 28 6-6 207 Miami (FL) $4,752,000
9 Kenny Thomas PF 30 6-7 245 New Mexico $7,875,000
19 Beno Udrih PG 25 6-3 200 $561,544
30 Justin Williams C 23 6-10 225 Wyoming $862,456
Coach: Reggie Theus
Average Age: 26.9
Average Height: 6-7
Average Weight: 216

How does a guy like Kevin Martin from Western Carolina get a contract for 3x what Dahntay Jones is getting-- when did he prove himself 3x the player that Jones is? Is Salmons 9x the player that Jones is? Is Jones really the worst SG/SF on this team, that he should be released? I would think with his strength and athleticism, he could defend SF/SG as well as anyone on this team (even including Artest)? Why is he not viable on this roster? Is it all about his shooting accuracy?

For that matter, how does a guy like Kenny Thomas ever do enough to earn a contract at ~$8M/year? What about Mikki Moore-- what did he do to earn a $5.4M/year contract? Something in this league does not compete, when a guy like Shelden can dominate at the college level, play well (when he gets a chance to play) in the NBA, and then suddenly become a throw-in (as a guy who's contract is allegedly about to expire, when actually it's not) to a deal, just so they can cut him loose at the end of the year. What have Thomas and Moore done to justify big contracts that Williams has not?

jzp5079
02-16-2008, 09:17 PM
clearly Sheldon dosn't have a new buddy in DJ. He just took his roster spot!

billybreen
02-16-2008, 09:18 PM
clearly Sheldon dosn't have a new buddy in DJ. He just took his roster spot!

Shelden

YmoBeThere
02-16-2008, 09:37 PM
"Also on Saturday, the Kings requested waivers on forward Justin Williams and guard Dahntay Jones."

I guess Dahntay has been liberated also...

HumboldtDevil
02-16-2008, 11:11 PM
Mudge, you don't have to be an NBA fan to notice that Kevin Martin is an absolute stud.

He averages over 20 ppg, which is well more than 3x what Dahntay averages.

Still, Dahntay should be able to stay on a roster somewhere.

Once you get to the NBA it doesn't matter whether you played at Duke or Western Carolina.

Mudge
02-16-2008, 11:44 PM
Mudge, you don't have to be an NBA fan to notice that Kevin Martin is an absolute stud.

He averages over 20 ppg, which is well more than 3x what Dahntay averages.

Still, Dahntay should be able to stay on a roster somewhere.

Once you get to the NBA it doesn't matter whether you played at Duke or Western Carolina.

Not an NBA fan, so I wasn't familiar with Martin's talents. Is Martin averaging 3x Jones, in points/minute played? I'd expect that Jones isn't playing much, if he is being cut now. Jones has averaged a bit more points/game, when he played more minutes... Martin stats appear quite good, but I had assumed that at 25, he was playing out the end of his rookie contract-- he didn't do well enough coming out of W. Carolina to get a higher draft position (and thus bigger rookie contract) than Jones. Jones must have taken a big pay cut when he finished his rookie contract and signed his latest contract. Jones did not come into the league with a big (Duke) reputation, like Redick and Williams-- he just came in with the reputation of being one of the best athletes (and fiercest competitors) ever to play at Duke-- I'd think that would serve him quite well in the NBA, regardless of where he went to college. Obviously, he has not flourished in the NBA, despite his physical skills and mental toughness-- it surprises me, given many less accomplished college players have done more in the league.

jzp5079
02-17-2008, 02:42 AM
How does a guy like Kevin Martin from Western Carolina get a contract for 3x what Dahntay Jones is getting-- when did he prove himself 3x the player that Jones is? Is Salmons 9x the player that Jones is? Is Jones really the worst SG/SF on this team, that he should be released? I would think with his strength and athleticism, he could defend SF/SG as well as anyone on this team (even including Artest)? Why is he not viable on this roster? Is it all about his shooting accuracy?

For that matter, how does a guy like Kenny Thomas ever do enough to earn a contract at ~$8M/year? What about Mikki Moore-- what did he do to earn a $5.4M/year contract? Something in this league does not compete, when a guy like Shelden can dominate at the college level, play well (when he gets a chance to play) in the NBA, and then suddenly become a throw-in (as a guy who's contract is allegedly about to expire, when actually it's not) to a deal, just so they can cut him loose at the end of the year. What have Thomas and Moore done to justify big contracts that Williams has not?

Mugdede,

thats just ignorant. Martin is 5X the player DJones is/ will be. Martin was a better college player as well even though he went to Western Carolina (where I believe he was the NCAA scoring leader his senior year). Moore is a big man with some agility and energy that a lot of other bigs can't match (which is a need and a rarity which equals worth). You personally might think Jones can defend as well as Artest, but anyone who follows the NBA closely would agree Artest is one of the best 5 defenders in the league. Jones is a good and capable defender, but nowhere near Artest. Kenny Thomas earned that money by posting right around 12 points and 8 rebounds in the three years before his contract with Sac. Sheldon shined at the end of last season but hasn't played well enough to earn PT in Atlanta. He should be given a better opportunity with the Kings.

Again, Moore and Thomas have been in the league, and have performed well in their contract years. Sheldon is still on his rookie contract.

Jones is a fierce competitor and awesome athlete - but there are many many other factors that come into play when assessing how a player will do in the NBA. In many cases, you don't know until they get there. According to Hollinger, defensive aces peak in their late 20's to early 30's. Hopefully Jones will have another chance somewhere else in the league.

jgehtland
02-17-2008, 11:27 AM
dear. God. In. Heaven.

His jersey is hanging in the rafters. Is it too hard to learn that there is no "o" in "shelden"?!?!?

YmoBeThere
02-17-2008, 11:31 AM
dear. God. In. Heaven.

His jersey is hanging in the rafters. Is it too hard to learn that there is no "o" in "shelden"?!?!?

Yeah, unfortunately the jersey only has the last name on it. Maybe if they put the correct spelling of his first name on it, more people would notice?

dukemath
02-17-2008, 12:02 PM
Problem is, they are describing this as a deal with Bibby going for 4 guys with contracts that expire this year. Doesn't sound promising.


According to ESPN, Shelden still has one more year on his contract after next year so it looks like he is going to get another full season to be more successful.

jzp5079
02-17-2008, 01:37 PM
dear. God. In. Heaven.

His jersey is hanging in the rafters. Is it too hard to learn that there is no "o" in "shelden"?!?!?

So give me an "F" and please remember to capitalize dear next time. :confused:

Mudge
02-17-2008, 03:20 PM
Mugdede,

thats just ignorant. Martin is 5X the player DJones is/ will be. Martin was a better college player as well even though he went to Western Carolina (where I believe he was the NCAA scoring leader his senior year). Moore is a big man with some agility and energy that a lot of other bigs can't match (which is a need and a rarity which equals worth). You personally might think Jones can defend as well as Artest, but anyone who follows the NBA closely would agree Artest is one of the best 5 defenders in the league. Jones is a good and capable defender, but nowhere near Artest. Kenny Thomas earned that money by posting right around 12 points and 8 rebounds in the three years before his contract with Sac. Sheldon shined at the end of last season but hasn't played well enough to earn PT in Atlanta. He should be given a better opportunity with the Kings.

Again, Moore and Thomas have been in the league, and have performed well in their contract years. Sheldon is still on his rookie contract.

Jones is a fierce competitor and awesome athlete - but there are many many other factors that come into play when assessing how a player will do in the NBA. In many cases, you don't know until they get there. According to Hollinger, defensive aces peak in their late 20's to early 30's. Hopefully Jones will have another chance somewhere else in the league.

Yes, I admit I am somewhat ignorant of the NBA-- I watched some of the Suns vs. the Warriors the other night-- watched about 5 minutes of what are supposed to be two of the most exciting teams in the league, and couldn't get interested in the lack of energy or enthusiasm (even Nash looked bored), so turned it off.

Speaking of ignorant, since you claim to be so up on the league, why didn't you notice that Jones was a higher draft pick (and thus by implication, a better college player) than Martin? As noted above, the NBA doesn't care what school you played at in college. I'd have to disagree about what Martin did at W. Carolina, as I never heard of the guy (or his team, for that matter) doing anything of note there. Obviously, he did (or had) something of interest, to be drafted in the 1st round, but what it was, I don't recall. Best I can tell, by looking him up online, he has come on quite a bit in the last 2 years, and credits some teammates for helping him improve offensively-- he didn't come into the league with his current skills.

I KNOW Artest is considered one of the best defenders in the league-- that's why I purposefully compared Jones to him-- that's exactly the point of my comment-- It is is MY OPINION that Jones could offer similar defensive skills, but he hasn't been afforded a similar chance to play at either of his league stops... and I really don't care that NBA insiders don't agree-- those are the same guys who put Boozer into the second round, and drafted T. Prince behind a whole bunch of guys not in the league anymore. This league is as much about opportunity, as it is about talent-- some guys who are perceived as very talented (Benoit Benjamin, M. Olowokandi) get numerous chances to prove that they don't have what it takes (usually because they're 7 feet tall)... other guys (S. Williams, D. Jones) have not yet gotten much chance to prove their worth. Boozer was just lucky that Cleveland had so little on hand, when he arrived, that he got a chance to play and prove people wrong, or he'd be still sitting on somebody's bench (or out of the league) like Williams. My point is, when you come into the league, and there isn't a lot to go on (e.g.- you're 7'5", like Y. Ming), you'd think that the person who accomplished more on the previous level (e.g.- Williams) and did it at a high level, against the best competition there, would get a chance to show what he can do, over somebody else who is also an unknown quantity and did not perform as successfully at the previous level.

Williams may still prove his worth-- my hope is that he gets a chance to do so. Moore may have some "agility and energy", but I have never heard of the guy doing anything of note in college (Nebraska basketball???) or the pros, and yet somehow he's got a huge contract, that might very well be the reason why Williams doesn't get off the bench in Sacramento either. Williams was the most important piece (more than Redick, IMO) on a college team that was #1 or #2 in the country (and taking every team's best shot) for his last two years of college-- you'd think they'd at least give him some playing time, especially after he played well in his limited opportunities last year. Some GM's are willing to recognize their mistakes and cut their losses, even on big contracts, some aren't-- and some are willing to tell their coaches to play the most effective players and some aren't-- it will be interesting to find out if Sacramento thinks Mikki Moore (or Kenny Thomas) is more effective than S. Williams, when each is afforded similar playing time.

Oriole Way
02-17-2008, 03:40 PM
Not an NBA fan, so I wasn't familiar with Martin's talents. Is Martin averaging 3x Jones, in points/minute played?

Who says that points per minute solely determines how much a player should be paid?


I'd expect that Jones isn't playing much, if he is being cut now.

He wasn't playing much at all. When two to three Kings starters (Bibby, Artest, Martin) were simultaneously injured, Jones was getting about 10 minutes of playing time. He was quite productive, not unlike last year. Unfortunately for Jones, Bibby, Martin, and Artest all came back around the same time. As a result, he's lucky to get 2 or 3 minutes of play.

Not surprising he was cut. I think Jones deserves a lot more PT, and hopefully he'll get it, but it's tough to find an ideal situation for players like him, he's a victim of his size and position, there are tons of other players out there like him in the NBA.


Yes, I admit I am somewhat ignorant of the NBA-- I watched some of the Suns vs. the Warriors the other night-- watched about 5 minutes of what are supposed to be two of the most exciting teams in the league, and couldn't get interested in the lack of energy or enthusiasm (even Nash looked bored), so turned it off.

Speaking of ignorant, since you claim to be so up on the league, why didn't you notice that Jones was a higher draft pick (and thus by implication, a better college player) than Martin? As noted above, the NBA doesn't care what school you played at in college. I'd have to disagree about what Martin did at W. Carolina, as I never heard of the guy (or his team, for that matter) doing anything of note there. Obviously, he did (or had) something of interest, to be drafted in the 1st round, but what it was, I don't recall. Best I can tell, by looking him up online, he has come on quite a bit in the last 2 years, and credits some teammates for helping him improve offensively-- he didn't come into the league with his current skills.

After admitting that you are ignorant about the NBA, it's probably not a good idea to start criticizing or commenting on what other people should or shouldn't know about the NBA, or claiming to know what the NBA thinks of where a player went to college.

Kevin Martin has developed into one of the best scorers in the entire NBA. He has more than earned his salary.

billybreen
02-17-2008, 05:46 PM
Sheldon was given a chance in Atlanta - and he will be given further chances with the Kings.

Ok, at this point it's clear that you are either intending to misspell his name or you've suffered serious head trauma. Please stop.

OZZIE4DUKE
02-17-2008, 05:48 PM
Sheldon was given a chance in Atlanta

Who cares about this Sheldon guy? Shelden Williams, we care a great deal about.

Obviously, the correct spelling of our players' names is something else we care a great deal about. That's why we keep correcting those who get it wrong, be it once or repeatedly (like you do).

jzp5079
02-17-2008, 06:00 PM
Who cares about this Sheldon guy? Shelden Williams, we care a great deal about.

Obviously, the correct spelling of our players' names is something else we care a great deal about. That's why we keep correcting those who get it wrong, be it once or repeatedly (like you do).

Where to start...

The NBA does not necessarily "care" what school you came from. However, the NBA and their scouts, GM's, etc... are all effected by hype and exposure.

Jones had about 100x more exposure then Martin during college. (Take Duke's televised games compared to Westerns... Take the hype surrounding the two leagues...)

Martin averaged 25 points a game his senior in college - he had a ton of skills before he got to the NBA. He moved into the first round through pre-draft workouts where he played well against some higher profiled players.

A lot of scouts saw a ton of potential in him and it was noted - but there was still some skepticism because of where he played in college and the competition he went up against. I think it is safe to say he went a little lower then he would have if he had played at a higher profiled school. I think it is possible Jones would have gone a few spots lower if he would have stayed at Rutgers. Where they were taken in the draft relates to their perceived risk-benefit ratio and the factors surrounding them.

As far as chances go - Jones has been given chances - and unfortunately he has not impressed. So he has failed to impress 3 out of 3 head coaches (Grizzlies, the brief stint with the Celtics, and now the Kings) so far.

Shelden was given a chance in Atlanta - and he will be given further chances with the Kings. Your college rep unfortunately only gets you so many chances alone.

The worst thing you said by far was that Boozer would have still been buried on the bench if it weren't for Cleveland's lack of a front court. Boozer is such a dominant force that there is no way he wouldn't be getting PT at any location he landed in the NBA. Boozer would be starting over Gasol if he was in LA. Thats how good he is. If you dominate in practice like he does - you get time. He still scores at will against the Shaqs and Duncans in the league.

It does not matter that Moore wasn't a household name in College. It really does not matter what his stats in the NBA are. Especially for big men. If you want to get more technical we could point out that Moore is a lot faster then Williams and his motor helps him cover better on the weak-side. The NBA is extremely fast paced nowadays. Having said that, it does not mean Williams won't have a better career or won't land a good contract.

I simply think you are misinformed on how you think Jones and Williams lack of "chances" are the reason for their misfortunes so far. You are putting too much weight on their college careers.



If I had a nickel for every time someone spelled my name "Zach" instead of "Zack"...

Indoor66
02-17-2008, 06:18 PM
If I had a nickel for every time someone spelled my name "Zach" instead of "Zack"...

We're not writing about you! Thank you.

slower
02-17-2008, 06:24 PM
If I had a nickel for every time someone spelled my name "Zach" instead of "Zack"...

Do you accept Paypal?

jk, man - it's a tough crowd!

jzp5079
02-17-2008, 06:43 PM
Is it DuMarcus or DaMarcus?

Mudge
02-17-2008, 07:05 PM
After admitting that you are ignorant about the NBA, it's probably not a good idea to start criticizing or commenting on what other people should or shouldn't know about the NBA, or claiming to know what the NBA thinks of where a player went to college.

Kevin Martin has developed into one of the best scorers in the entire NBA. He has more than earned his salary.

I admitted I am ignorant (of the NBA, which I have no desire to become expert in-- and I am joined by the bulk of the US sporting public, as evidenced by the lack of interest when the NBA went on strike in 1999), after JPZ (who can't spell Shelden, if you spot him the first 5 letters) told me I was ignorant, and told me how much he knew about the NBA by labeling Martin a better player in college and a better prospect coming out of college than Jones-- then I looked it up, and found that Jones was a higher draft choice than Martin, so it occurred to me that JPZ is pot to my kettle.

Apparently, Martin has earned his salary by his development post his arrival in the league... he has gotten chances to play, has improved (as he notes in his own words several times) as a result of coaching from NBA teammates, and is now very effective. I am wondering if Jones has gotten the same chance. I see noted above that Jones was doing well with his increased playing time, until 3 big contract players returned-- hmmm, who do we play-- the guys we have invested big money in, or the guy with the tiny contract? The Cleveland Browns are confronted with the same dilemma with Brady Quinn and Derek Anderson-- Anderson performed well, but they gave Quinn (who has done nothing yet) a lot of guaranteed money-- the problem in the NBA is that all the money is guaranteed.

YmoBeThere
02-17-2008, 07:21 PM
Is it DuMarcus or DaMarcus?

Well, when he misses on a dunk it is DohMarcus....

Mudge
02-17-2008, 07:24 PM
Where to start...

The NBA does not necessarily "care" what school you came from. However, the NBA and their scouts, GM's, etc... are all effected by hype and exposure.


The worst thing you said by far was that Boozer would have still been buried on the bench if it weren't for Cleveland's lack of a front court. Boozer is such a dominant force that there is no way he wouldn't be getting PT at any location he landed in the NBA. Boozer would be starting over Gasol if he was in LA. Thats how good he is. If you dominate in practice like he does - you get time. He still scores at will against the Shaqs and Duncans in the league.



Can't have it both ways-- either the NBA doesn't care what school you came from, or they do acknowledge that some people (and schools) play (and do well) against tougher competition and get everybody's best shot-- which is why those schools' players are getting more exposure than others.

As for Boozer, I recall that the reason he opted out of Cleveland, even after having a couple of nice seasons there and being offered a bigger contract (though obviously still not on par with his market value in the league), was that the Cavs wanted him to be "role player" to LeBron, and he thought he could be more than that-- and has since proved it. So, even after getting to play a lot for two years for them, the Cavs still did not think of him as a premier player in the league-- and certainly not as an All-Star. I think the Cavs (after 2 years to study him up close) still did not realize what they had-- kudos to Carlos for thumbing his nose at them. Doesn't sound like his emergence was an inevitable conclusion-- he could still be playing in Cleveland, pulling in rebounds so LeBron can shoot another long 3-pointer, with nobody in the league talking about Boozer as an All-Star.

jzp5079
02-17-2008, 07:32 PM
Can't have it both ways-- either the NBA doesn't care what school you came from, or they do acknowledge that some people (and schools) play (and do well) against tougher competition and get everybody's best shot-- which is why those schools' players are getting more exposure than others.

As for Boozer, I recall that the reason he opted out of Cleveland, even after having a couple of nice seasons there and being offered a bigger contract (though obviously still not on par with his market value in the league), was that the Cavs wanted him to be "role player" to LeBron, and he thought he could be more than that-- and has since proved it. So, even after getting to play a lot for two years for them, the Cavs still did not think of him as a premier player in the league-- and certainly not as an All-Star. I think the Cavs (after 2 years to study him up close) still did not realize what they had-- kudos to Carlos for thumbing his nose at them. Doesn't sound like his emergence was an inevitable conclusion-- he could still be playing in Cleveland, pulling in rebounds so LeBron can shoot another long 3-pointer, with nobody in the league talking about Boozer as an All-Star.

wrong again, but thats a whole different subject.

Acymetric
02-17-2008, 07:35 PM
wrong again, but thats a whole different subject.

Your argument is convincing. Elaborate?

jzp5079
02-17-2008, 08:02 PM
in short - Cleveland had no intention of preventing Boozer from playing to the best of his ability. They only had a mid-level exception to offer. Once they let Boozer out of his final contract year, the phone started ringing with offers.

Utah had previously missed out on two other Dukies: Elton Brand and Corey Magette (obviously the Jazz have a history of good taste). They had also missed out on Jason Terry. They had money to spend and offered Boozer everything they could.

Cleveland had offered 6 years and 39 million.
Utah offered 6 years and 70 million.

Did Boozer know a team would offer him that much? Maybe not, all though I know he thought he was still worth at least a little bit more.

Did he have a verbal agreement with Cleveland?
Maybe - he claims he did not. I would say we will never know 100% for sure what was said and what wasn't.

Cleveland (and any other team in the NBA) would have loved to have 2 All-Stars. They thought a lot of Boozer which is part of the reason why they let him out of his contract a year early. Lebron operates very methodically from the outside working in and would have opened up the interior a lot and given Boozer a fair opportunity at becoming an All-Star as well. He was as mad as anyone Boozer left Cleveland (as he is unhappy he has limited help at the moment). Boozer did not leave because he thought he could be more productive with Utah (at least not primarily).

If my math is correct, Boozer made a 31 million dollar decision (almost as much as what his initial contract offer was worth). It was partly a decision for his children and his children's children.

I mean who wouldn't want to play with Lebron?



This is my understanding from what I have read, and of course I am open to any other sides of the story.

jzp5079
02-17-2008, 08:28 PM
"Boozer claims he originally had planned to re-sign with the Cavs, but as negotiations progressed, he became disillusioned after head coach Paul Silas made some negative comments about his game.

"During those conversations, I asked those guys about my role on the team, and I expressed to them the direction I wanted to go individually and with the team," Boozer said. "I wanted the chance to become an All-Star, and some [in the meeting] didn't think I could accomplish that here. One primary person *Paul Silas* didn't believe I could."

I believe the contract was actually 68 mil (not 70).
This is relating to what was said in an earlier post. This related with the much larger sum of money is what I believe did it.

Double DD
02-17-2008, 08:50 PM
I admitted I am ignorant (of the NBA, which I have no desire to become expert in-- and I am joined by the bulk of the US sporting public, as evidenced by the lack of interest when the NBA went on strike in 1999), after JPZ (who can't spell Shelden, if you spot him the first 5 letters) told me I was ignorant, and told me how much he knew about the NBA by labeling Martin a better player in college and a better prospect coming out of college than Jones-- then I looked it up, and found that Jones was a higher draft choice than Martin, so it occurred to me that JPZ is pot to my kettle.

Apparently, Martin has earned his salary by his development post his arrival in the league... he has gotten chances to play, has improved (as he notes in his own words several times) as a result of coaching from NBA teammates, and is now very effective. I am wondering if Jones has gotten the same chance. I see noted above that Jones was doing well with his increased playing time, until 3 big contract players returned-- hmmm, who do we play-- the guys we have invested big money in, or the guy with the tiny contract? The Cleveland Browns are confronted with the same dilemma with Brady Quinn and Derek Anderson-- Anderson performed well, but they gave Quinn (who has done nothing yet) a lot of guaranteed money-- the problem in the NBA is that all the money is guaranteed.

Jones wasn't as good a prospect as Martin was in his draft year. Dahntay was projected by most as a second rounder and his selection as high as 20th was a big surprise. In fact the Grizzlies' other 1st round player, Troy Bell, was also expected to be a 2nd rounder before Memphis took him. Jerry West got a lot of criticism for those two picks and I think the Grizzlies gave more than enough opportunity for Jones to succeed so that they wouldn't look foolish for selecting two 2nd round caliber players in the 1st round. I don't think a lack of opportunity is what's caused him to struggle so far in the NBA.

YmoBeThere
02-17-2008, 09:14 PM
Is it DuMarcus or DaMarcus?

FWIW, Gminski identified a new player for us this evening. Gerald Nelson...

jzp5079
02-17-2008, 10:28 PM
I'de take him over DeMarcus Henderson

Mudge
02-17-2008, 10:40 PM
"Boozer claims he originally had planned to re-sign with the Cavs, but as negotiations progressed, he became disillusioned after head coach Paul Silas made some negative comments about his game.

"During those conversations, I asked those guys about my role on the team, and I expressed to them the direction I wanted to go individually and with the team," Boozer said. "I wanted the chance to become an All-Star, and some [in the meeting] didn't think I could accomplish that here. One primary person *Paul Silas* didn't believe I could."

I believe the contract was actually 68 mil (not 70).
This is relating to what was said in an earlier post. This related with the much larger sum of money is what I believe did it.

Obviously, I wasn't wrong again-- you were-- and you proved my point for me by dredging up exactly the words and conversation that I was thinking of when I said that the Cavs didn't know what they had and didn't think Boozer could be an All-Star... Thanks for proving my point (Silas was too dumb to know what he had), even if you can't see it yourself, and Kudos again to Carlos for seeing that he was more than the Cavs thought he was, even after playing extensively for them for two years... it took the opportunity to be fully utilized in Utah (and not just treated as LeBron's stalking horse in Cleveland) for Boozer's ability to be recognized. I don't give a rat'sass what the money was-- what I recall was Boozer saying he wanted to be given the chance to realize his potential, and it wasn't going to happen in Cleveland.

Mudge
02-17-2008, 10:54 PM
Jones wasn't as good a prospect as Martin was in his draft year. Dahntay was projected by most as a second rounder and his selection as high as 20th was a big surprise. In fact the Grizzlies' other 1st round player, Troy Bell, was also expected to be a 2nd rounder before Memphis took him. Jerry West got a lot of criticism for those two picks and I think the Grizzlies gave more than enough opportunity for Jones to succeed so that they wouldn't look foolish for selecting two 2nd round caliber players in the 1st round. I don't think a lack of opportunity is what's caused him to struggle so far in the NBA.

How do you know Jones wasn't as good a prospect as Martin in his draft year? I am asking an honest question-- do you have prospective draft rankings from those years that show this to be true? I've never seen anything that talked up Martin before his drafting; conversely, all I ever saw about Jones in advance was that he had great athletic ability, and could expect to go in the first round of the draft, so no, I don't agree that Jones was projected as a 2nd rounder, anymore than Boozer was.

The fact that Jones was picked in the 1st round by Jerry West says a lot to me, as I consider him the best, most accomplished NBA draft executive in the league's history. He has built more really good NBA championship teams (and playoff teams) from scratch than anybody else in the league. Auerbach built one great dynasty around Russell, and then a pretty good bunch around Bird, and then spent the last 20 years making excuses, telling us how Len Bias would have been another Jordan (no, he wouldn't, as he couldn't begin to handle the ball like Jordan, or defend like Jordan). West built a team that had never had a winning record into an NBA playoff team, and we can see how well they've done with that team, since his involvement has been curtailed-- they destroyed a playoff team, in less than 2 years.

Oriole Way
02-17-2008, 11:22 PM
How do you know Jones wasn't as good a prospect as Martin in his draft year? I am asking an honest question-- do you have prospective draft rankings from those years that show this to be true? I've never seen anything that talked up Martin before his drafting; conversely, all I ever saw about Jones in advance was that he had great athletic ability, and could expect to go in the first round of the draft, so no, I don't agree that Jones was projected as a 2nd rounder, anymore than Boozer was.

The fact that Jones was picked in the 1st round by Jerry West says a lot to me, as I consider him the best, most accomplished NBA draft executive in the league's history. He has built more really good NBA championship teams (and playoff teams) from scratch than anybody else in the league. Auerbach built one great dynasty around Russell, and then a pretty good bunch around Bird, and then spent the last 20 years making excuses, telling us how Len Bias would have been another Jordan (no, he wouldn't, as he couldn't begin to handle the ball like Jordan, or defend like Jordan). West built a team that had never had a winning record into an NBA playoff team, and we can see how well they've done with that team, since his involvement has been curtailed-- they destroyed a playoff team, in less than 2 years.

See, there you go again talking about the NBA as if your opinion matters or you want it to matter, after saying you are "somewhat ignorant" about the NBA, and that a lot of people don't care about it.

Just before you claim that Jerry West was "the most accomplished NBA draft executive in the league's history", you said "I have no desire to be an expert in [the NBA]." Do you realize how asinine you come off?

Instead of offering your "somewhat ignorant" opinions and assertions, just stick to asking questions.

lmb
02-19-2008, 03:10 PM
Sorry if this has already been posted, but Shelden was traded along with several others to the Kings for Mike Bibby. Hopefully this will be a good system for him. Also, the team requested waivers for Dahntay. I'm NBA ignorant. What does that mean?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3249180

Got_Duke
02-19-2008, 03:26 PM
it means he's being waived (goodbye)

Bluedog
02-19-2008, 03:27 PM
Sorry if this has already been posted, but Shelden was traded along with several others to the Kings for Mike Bibby. Hopefully this will be a good system for him. Also, the team requested waivers for Dahntay. I'm NBA ignorant. What does that mean?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3249180

Waivers mean the Kings have released him. Other teams have to 48-hour waiver period to pick up his contract essentially. If no team picks him up, he clears waivers and the Kings must pay the rest of the guaranteed portion of the contract. Then new teams can negotiate a new contract if they want. The vast majority of players are not picked up on waivers since teams typically want to pay less than the current contract. And it's obviously possible that nobody picks him up.

See http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#54 for more details.

lmb
02-19-2008, 03:43 PM
It's a shame the two couldn't play together. Hopefully someone can use Dahntay's services.

MIKESJ73
02-19-2008, 05:09 PM
Trade deadline in 3pm Thurs. New rumors of a trade involving Redick and others to the Kings for Miller and Garcia. Only Rumors though, you can read more on the Orlando Magic board.

CameronBornAndBred
02-19-2008, 07:01 PM
Trade deadline in 3pm Thurs. New rumors of a trade involving Redick and others to the Kings for Miller and Garcia. Only Rumors though, you can read more on the Orlando Magic board.

I hope JJ gets chance somewhere. It's cruel watching him sit, especially knowing they flat out told him he isn't going to play. If it were any other job, you couldn't beat earning millions and doing nothing for it, but when you really want to earn your dough and aren't allowed to, that's tough.

I hope Sheldon makes the most of his opportunity. He really needs to step up and prove his NBA worth. Candace will even be a further visit from Israel.

hc5duke
02-19-2008, 07:41 PM
I hope JJ gets chance somewhere. It's cruel watching him sit, especially knowing they flat out told him he isn't going to play. If it were any other job, you couldn't beat earning millions and doing nothing for it, but when you really want to earn your dough and aren't allowed to, that's tough.

I hope Sheldon makes the most of his opportunity. He really needs to step up and prove his NBA worth. Candace will even be a further visit from Israel.

Kinda sad to see Shelden struggle so much, but hopefully it was just the environment he was in, not being given enough opportunities. A lot of people expected JJ would have a tough time with defense in the NBA, but Shelden's low numbers are mind-boggling. On the plus side, Sacto is only 1.5 hr drive from here, so maybe I can go watch a game some time.

Oh, and it's SheldEn and fArther... sorry, couldn't resist not fixing it :-/

Acymetric
02-19-2008, 11:07 PM
Shelden is playing today, hopefully he puts up some decent numbers...I'd watch if it was on TV.

speedevil
02-20-2008, 12:12 AM
now i got some reason to watch kings games,

wisteria
02-20-2008, 01:28 AM
Shelden's debut at Kings

5minutes, 3points, 3rebounds, 2 turnovers, 1 foul.

And he got to see McRoberts today :)

Acymetric
02-20-2008, 01:34 AM
Shelden's debut at Kings

5minutes, 3points, 3rebounds, 2 turnovers, 1 foul.

And he got to see McRoberts today :)

You forgot the block!

wisteria
02-20-2008, 01:39 AM
ah, my bad.

And Shelden made the frontpage of Kings website today :)
Looking very sharp in purple, although Duke Blue is the best for him.

wisteria
02-21-2008, 01:40 AM
Shelden's 2nd game as a King.
10 minutes, 3-5 shooting, 2-3 FT, 8 points total.
not bad!

I just think we could use some good news after the loss.

Acymetric
02-21-2008, 01:57 AM
And another block!:D

I think Shelden is going to get a chance to contribute meaningfully on this team.

One question though. It seems like because of his hight he would be more of a PF than a C, so why is he always listed as a center? I guess its all really just basketball semantics, but I just never understood.

OZZIE4DUKE
02-21-2008, 08:30 AM
One question though. It seems like because of his hight he would be more of a PF than a C, so why is he always listed as a center? I guess its all really just basketball semantics, but I just never understood.

I would guess because he is playing the 5 position and not the 4.

Dave Cowens had a pretty good career with Boston as a 6'7" center 30+ years ago, and he was undersized even back then.

throatybeard
01-26-2013, 01:10 AM
I don't pay much attention to the NBA and I was surprised to find Shelden is in France. Also, it messes me up that he's almost 30.

johnb
01-26-2013, 01:26 AM
I don't pay much attention to the NBA and I was surprised to find Shelden is in France. Also, it messes me up that he's almost 30.

and Dahntay is still in the NBA, with the Mavs.

juise
01-26-2013, 01:44 AM
I don't pay much attention to the NBA and I was surprised to find Shelden is in France. Also, it messes me up that he's almost 30.

Our friend awhom111 does a great job of keeping us updated on Shelden in the Dukies in Europe and other places outside the USA (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?25830-Dukies-in-Europe-and-other-places-outside-the-USA/page17) thread.