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throatybeard
02-17-2008, 08:54 PM
No Baptist ministers were harmed in the making of this thread.

FireOgilvie
02-17-2008, 09:04 PM
Worst game I've seen us play in several years at Duke.

calltheobvious
02-17-2008, 09:07 PM
There are 100 teams whose best game could beat the best 3 teams' worst.

I know that seems like a back-handed compliment to Wake, but I don't mean it to be. They were simply tremendous tonight, the lackluster Duke effort notwithstanding.

Next play.

Karl Beem
02-17-2008, 09:07 PM
Worst game I've seen us play in several years at Duke.

Agreed. Most of the Duke players didn't show up along with the refs and Brando. I'd love to be the Gman and tell him, "you ever root for a team and I'll embarrass you on the air".

Bob Green
02-17-2008, 09:08 PM
Duke was up 60-55 and Wake Forest finishes the game on a 31-13 run. My hats off to the Deacons on playing an excellent game.

OZ
02-17-2008, 09:08 PM
Out hustled... out played. One of those nights.

feldspar
02-17-2008, 09:08 PM
If we were going to lose a game between now and the ACC Tournament, this would probably be the best one to lose.

It's not that big of a deal in the long run so let's avoid the meltdown. Wake is VERY VERY good at home, they're an up-and-coming team and we played horribly, it's not like we actually played well and got beat.

I feel confident that we could be looking back at this game at some point and see it as a turning point.

Next play.

FishStick
02-17-2008, 09:09 PM
I'd like to blame the loss on the refs, but we really played below our level tonight. Wake played well and we just couldn't put in the effort. Well, let's hope that Wake makes it in the NCAA thanks to this at least and can carry the momentum to win their next game. Hopefully we can rebound as well.

freedevil
02-17-2008, 09:09 PM
Some nights, you just get beat. Ech.

CatfiveCane
02-17-2008, 09:09 PM
Duke played sloppy today. Brought their "C" game.

Is it just me... or am I the only one who wishes that Scheyer played less minutes. I mean he's gritty and plays tough, but he can't buy a bucket. Plus he's a defensive liability. He needs to be able to knock down the open 3 point shot.

pfrduke
02-17-2008, 09:09 PM
Worst game I've seen us play in several years at Duke.

Nah - last year's game at Maryland was definitely worse.

pratt '04
02-17-2008, 09:09 PM
Duke looked tired and unfocused. Hopefully this loss can be used as motivation.

Karl Beem
02-17-2008, 09:09 PM
There are 100 teams whose absolute best game could beat the best 3 teams' absolute worst.

I know that seems like a back-handed compliment to Wake, but I don't mean it to be. They were simply tremendous tonight, the lackluster Duke effort notwithstanding.

Next play.

Balls. They were given the game. They'll lose by 40 at Carolina.

dukestheheat
02-17-2008, 09:10 PM
Worst game I've seen us play in several years at Duke.

I've never seen that, ever, in all the years I've watched basketball. I'm not doubting the calls but I think that statistic, coupled with the turnovers and the free throw shooting, add up to Duke just not mentally arriving to play this game tonight.

We'll rebound.

Remember we are still in first place in the ACC even though the hated Holes are having A LOT of fun in Chapel Hell right now at our expense.

I don't know about any of you guys, but I'm still putting on my DUKE sweatshirt when I head out tomorrow, to the gym or otherwise. We'll be fine and we'll learn from this game.

dth.

pfrduke
02-17-2008, 09:10 PM
Duke played sloppy today. Brought their "C" game.

Is it just me... or am I the only one who wishes that Scheyer played less minutes. I mean he's gritty and plays tough, but he can't buy a bucket. Plus he's a defensive liability. He needs to be able to knock down the open 3 point shot.

The statement bolded above is just flat wrong. See what he did to Wayne Ellington in the UNC game.

buddy
02-17-2008, 09:10 PM
You could see this train wreck early. Nelson 3-9 from the foul line, Singler 3 or 4 turnovers in the first few minutes. And if Henderson can't shoot, why is he playing. Scheyer had clearly his worst game of the season. Only Smith showed me anything tonight. Let's hope they got this out of their system.

feldspar
02-17-2008, 09:11 PM
Balls. They were given the game. They'll lose by 40 at Carolina.

Way to keep it classy, Karl.

Duvall
02-17-2008, 09:12 PM
Way to keep it classy, Karl.

They will lose by 40 at Carolina, though.

Ben63
02-17-2008, 09:12 PM
Wow. That was absolutley pathetic. No Hustle, no effort, no desire, no emotion. The NBA All-Stars put more effort into their game than this Duke team did. You can't have much of a chance when 5 starters foul out, but it was just ugly.

Wake played great basketball all night.

godukerocks
02-17-2008, 09:12 PM
I'd like to blame the loss on the refs,.

Or the 8-28 shooting display from three.

CatfiveCane
02-17-2008, 09:12 PM
The statement bolded above is just flat wrong. See what he did to Wayne Ellington in the UNC game.

Sorry, but Wayne Ellington did that to himself. He missed open shots left and right. Plus, it was Henderson who guarded him as well.

jipops
02-17-2008, 09:12 PM
WF is precisely the type of team we have serious matchup problems with. They have size, they're extremely athletic and quick, they rarely lose at home, and unlike UNC - they play DEFENSE. No one should be at all surprised at this loss.

My biggest concern is Gerald Henderson. Since the unc game with the wrist injury he has been a near non-factor offensively as he's no longer looking for his shot. This is a huge deal for the rest of the season. Sounds like he could be playing through it through the remainder of the year.

With the exception of the turnovers I didn't think we actually played that poorly, we were simply over-matched. The Deacs were quicker and we couldn't guard them which led to the foul issues.

Again, this loss should come as no surprise to anyone who has been following ACC hoops outside of duke and unc.

GatorBait15
02-17-2008, 09:13 PM
Sorry that it just couldnt happen guys

pamtar
02-17-2008, 09:13 PM
We beat the holes.

Keep that in mind in times like these.

godukerocks
02-17-2008, 09:13 PM
They will lose by 40 at Carolina, though.

They probably will.

But I hope they don't.

Duvall
02-17-2008, 09:13 PM
Sorry, but Wayne Ellington did that to himself. He missed open shots left and right. Plus, it was Henderson who guarded him as well.

Please stop being wrong.

When you're closely guarded most of the night, you miss the few open shots you get.

mehmattski
02-17-2008, 09:14 PM
39: Field Goal Percentage (Duke's worst of the season)
31: Fouls Committed (including one technical)
21: Turnovers
12: Missed Free Throws
4.5: Minutes without a FG in the second half... five different Blue Devils missed a 3 pointer in this stretch.

That, folks, is recipe for disaster.

Let's not forget the contribution from Nolan Smith today. While most of the Deacon's defense was focused on the 3, Smith showed up to keep the score close in the second half.

CoachJ10
02-17-2008, 09:14 PM
Congrats to a good effort by the Deacs, they certainly were fired up for this game. Poor shooting by the Blue Devils certainly did not help their cause.

But...tonight continues a bad trend this season...poor officiating by ACC officials. Tonight's game was one of the worst called games I have seen in awhile (and I was in school when Wirtz and Papparo were around). Inconsistent calls all around by the zebras...and clearly letting the home crowd influence their calls. I don't know how K was so calm tonight with all the bad calls.

And can we get ONE announcer who doesn't openly root against Duke to comment on our games? Elmore clearly is the president of that contingency...but Mike Patrick, Tim Brando and Jimmy Dykes are giving him a run for his money.

Bob Green
02-17-2008, 09:14 PM
The statement bolded above is just flat wrong. See what he did to Wayne Ellington in the UNC game.

Most post by CatfiveCane are just flat wrong.

beach rev
02-17-2008, 09:15 PM
I agree with Feldspar; next play. And might I add - Brando needed a striped ref shirt along with his Demon Deacon megaphone. Blatant bias, IMO.

dbd4ever
02-17-2008, 09:15 PM
We didn't play our best game, but WTF the sorry a** referees. The three or four no-calls when we drove the baseline and were forced out of bounds; the rebound that was deflected twice by a Wake Forest player before eventually being called a backcourt violation on Scheyer; and how in the HELL do you keep having contact on both ends under the basket or where ever and no whistle being blown. The play that Singler fouled out on was from contact initiated by James Johnson as he leaned up into Kyle. And if all of that isn't bad enough, we have to listen to Tim Brando the whole game. Is it just me or does it seem like most commentators are anti-Duke these days. Sometimes it seems like the worst ones are Duke alumni. Just my .02 worth. On a side note though, Gerald looks very tentative along with Scheyer and why the hell can't Taylor King get in the game or Zoubek when we're getting destroyed on the inside and Lance is in foul trouble?

Why????Why????Why????Why????

jimmymax
02-17-2008, 09:15 PM
We'll rebound.


That's optimism. Maybe we'll make FTs too. I'd feel better if UNC hadn't been able to squeak out their recent Ws.

pfrduke
02-17-2008, 09:16 PM
Sorry, but Wayne Ellington did that to himself. He missed open shots left and right. Plus, it was Henderson who guarded him as well.

This is also wrong. See this thread (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6744) to educate yourself

glutton
02-17-2008, 09:16 PM
Duke played sloppy today. Brought their "C" game.

Is it just me... or am I the only one who wishes that Scheyer played less minutes. I mean he's gritty and plays tough, but he can't buy a bucket. Plus he's a defensive liability. He needs to be able to knock down the open 3 point shot.

yeah, I can't agree at all. scheyer is a far better defender than anyone gives him credit for.

Karl Beem
02-17-2008, 09:16 PM
Duke played sloppy today. Brought their "C" game.

Is it just me... or am I the only one who wishes that Scheyer played less minutes. I mean he's gritty and plays tough, but he can't buy a bucket. Plus he's a defensive liability. He needs to be able to knock down the open 3 point shot.

That's because you're a troll. Begone!:mad:

jipops
02-17-2008, 09:16 PM
Duke played sloppy today. Brought their "C" game.

Is it just me... or am I the only one who wishes that Scheyer played less minutes. I mean he's gritty and plays tough, but he can't buy a bucket. Plus he's a defensive liability. He needs to be able to knock down the open 3 point shot.

Defensively liability!!??? Are you serious????!!!

Scheyer was possibly the only guy playing effective D tonight. He even took away some of the Deacs' shots inside.

In case you didn't notice, NOBODY knocked down a shot in the critical time of the 2nd half. All credit goes to Wake's D.

Duvall
02-17-2008, 09:17 PM
A serious question - why in the name of God would anyone care about what Tim Brando had to say? Please, please stop whining, or at least find something worth whining about.

feldspar
02-17-2008, 09:17 PM
We didn't play our best game, but WTF the sorry a** referees. The three or four no-calls when we drove the baseline and were forced out of bounds; the rebound that was deflected twice by a Wake Forest player before eventually being called a backcourt violation on Scheyer; and how in the HELL do you keep having contact on both ends under the basket or where ever and no whistle being blown. The play that Singler fouled out on was from contact initiated by James Johnson as he leaned up into Kyle. And if all of that isn't bad enough, we have to listen to Tim Brando the whole game. Is it just me or does it seem like most commentators are anti-Duke these days. Sometimes it seems like the worst ones are Duke alumni. Just my .02 worth. On a side note though, Gerald looks very tentative along with Scheyer and why the hell can't Taylor King get in the game or Zoubek when we're getting destroyed on the inside and Lance is in foul trouble?

Why????Why????Why????Why????

Hey, whatever makes you feel better.

FireOgilvie
02-17-2008, 09:17 PM
Nah - last year's game at Maryland was definitely worse.

I don't know. We had 3 losses in a row before that game. We were terrible the whole second half of the season last year. Maybe we have just been overachieving this whole year, but if not I think this was definitely our worst game in several years. Our starting lineup fouled out, Coach K wore a gold tie and didn't show any emotion the whole night, and only Nolan Smith looked like he wanted to win.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
02-17-2008, 09:18 PM
Great game by Wake, not so much for us. Duke gets all the calls. I'm going to bed.:mad:

glutton
02-17-2008, 09:18 PM
some of the reffing was was pretty poor. both of those force-out-of-bounds turnovers looked suspect to me.

that being said, we still played badly and deserved to lose. I'm just not sure we deserved to have our entire starting lineup foul out...

Oriole Way
02-17-2008, 09:19 PM
The refs didn't matter that much, we had little chance to win based on how we played all night. The fact we dug ourselves into a huge hole with 4+ minutes left led to the typical flurry of fouls which are called when the losing team is scrambling to make a comeback. Lots of Wake/Duke games at Joel have been called tightly.

Missing free throws like crazy, getting outrebounded and outhustled, and WAY too many turnovers are what killed us tonight.

A few things alarm me, in order of concern:

1. Henderson's wrist seems to be a serious problem. He's just not the same player since he injured it. I'd like to see him sit out a few games to try and let it heal; if that won't do it, our team is much less dynamic and I don't think we can make a deep run in March.

2. The free throws. This will start and end with DeMarcus. He just takes so many free throws that he can single-handedly determine how well Duke shoots from the line as a team. You can't teach an old dog new tricks, but he's a senior and he's elevated every other aspect of his game this year. It's not a coincidence that both of our losses featured piss poor free throw shooting.

3. For being such a smart player, Kyle Singler makes some of the dumbest fouls you'll ever see. Fouls 50 and 60 feet away from the basket he's defending. Fouling guys in transition he's not even guarding. It has to stop so he can stay on the floor, and it's not a hard thing to do.

There's a few other pressing concerns, but nothing that can't be remedied. Loved how Nolan Smith played tonight. Scheyer's last few games have been depressing, he needs to step up.

dukelifer
02-17-2008, 09:19 PM
Tonight was one of those nights- but a bigger concern is Henderson. If that wrist is getting worse or not getting better- it does not bode very well for Duke down the stretch. Scheyer will have better nights for sure- but Duke will not win when he is O-fer. The only bright spot was the play of Smith. He showed when given minutes- he can shine. The Wake frosh are really good.

Now watch all the experts chime in about how Duke is weaker than their record etc. ESPN already has noted that Wake beats Duke "convincingly"

OldSchool
02-17-2008, 09:19 PM
The starters looked exhausted after 30 minutes.

Demarcus tried to put the team on his back when Wake started pulling away, but he just seemed too worn out. He would work tremendously hard to drive to the basket and then miss the layin.

Officiating was inconsistent. After the call on McFarland, the three-man team seemed unable to get a consistent approach to foul-calling which worked to our disadvantage.

Nolan looked great down the stretch.

robed deity
02-17-2008, 09:19 PM
Well-it was just one of those nights. Nothing really went Duke's way against a balanced team playing well on their home court. Between fouls, mental errors and failure to finish at the rim, Duke just couldn't get into a groove. It happens-not the end of the world. We'll come back stronger. The funny thing is, I was still optimistic about them coming back even with a minute or so left. And that's with 3 players already having fouled out. Certainly couldn't say that last year.

And hopefully, G's wrist will feel better soon. We really could have used his midrange game tonite.

CatfiveCane
02-17-2008, 09:20 PM
Most post by CatfiveCane are just flat wrong.

sorry, but you are flat wrong. Scheyer and Paulus are defensive liabilities. Teague ran circles around Paulus today. Scheyer is barely any better. yet at least Paulus is the PG and can nail open 3-point shots. Scheyer is streaky from the outside... at best.

Sorry, but to say Scheyer stopped Wayne Ellington is down right laughable. That's like when Michael Jordan had a bad game... and saying the guy who defended him shut him down. Of course Wayne Ellington isn't that good, but you get the point. Plus, Scheyer did not guard Ellington alone. Henderson did the bulk.

godukerocks
02-17-2008, 09:20 PM
In case you didn't notice, NOBODY knocked down a shot in the critical time of the 2nd half. All credit goes to Wake's D.


That's true. But Nolan Smith stepped up a little bit towards the end; a good sign of things to come.

Classof06
02-17-2008, 09:20 PM
I said it before the game (hope I didn't jinx us :( ) but we were due for a sub-par outing. With the exception of a few halves, this team has played superb basketball for 2 straight months now, since the Pitt game. People forget Duke is still a young team, but young or not, they were due for one of those nights.

I honestly don't think Duke played lazy tonight. We made some mistakes obviously but I felt the effort was there, I really did. Again, sometimes it just isn't your night.

I will say this though, I would love another chance at Wake. Those kids were talking a bit too much for my liking and while it didn't cost us the game, those refs were terrible. If you're going to give Zoubek a T for doing nothing, they had to give Teague a T for standing over Singler acting like he was about to punch him. I don't care what anyone says, Wake got some home cookin' from the refs tonight. It's not the reason we lost but they definitely got some favors.

I'll be at the Miami game Wednesday night. After tonight, I'm even more eager to be there. Can't wait.

wiscodevil
02-17-2008, 09:20 PM
The statement bolded above is just flat wrong. See what he did to Wayne Ellington in the UNC game.

agreed. he actually plays great defense and rebounds well for his size. offensively, tonight he added nothing.

paulus and henderson brought very little as well.

DU82
02-17-2008, 09:21 PM
We didn't play our best game, but WTF the sorry a** referees. The three or four no-calls when we drove the baseline and were forced out of bounds; the rebound that was deflected twice by a Wake Forest player before eventually being called a backcourt violation on Scheyer; ...

That call was correct. Scheyer was the last one to touch it in the front court, and he knocked it into the backcourt when trying to control it. No Deacon touched it in between.

beach rev
02-17-2008, 09:21 PM
A serious question - why in the name of God would anyone care about what Tim Brando had to say? Please, please stop whining, or at least find something worth whining about.

Perhaps because Brando, Elmore, et al are paid extremely well to at least posit objective, decently-reasoned thoughts about both teams in a balanced manner. Lofty, I know - but true, nevertheless.

VaDukie
02-17-2008, 09:22 PM
We just got beat soundly. No other way to put it. Congrats to Wake.

DoubleDuke Dad
02-17-2008, 09:22 PM
39: Field Goal Percentage (Duke's worst of the season)
31: Fouls Committed (including one technical)
21: Turnovers
12: Missed Free Throws
4.5: Minutes without a FG in the second half... five different Blue Devils missed a 3 pointer in this stretch.

That, folks, is recipe for disaster.

Let's not forget the contribution from Nolan Smith today. While most of the Deacon's defense was focused on the 3, Smith showed up to keep the score close in the second half.
What can you say. It is clear that this defeat was a team effort.:(

pugtugdoz
02-17-2008, 09:22 PM
I know we didn't play well tonight, but it's hard to compete when everybody is in foul trouble. During there 17-2 run, we couldn't get a call and one of their guards would miss a shot (looked like good D) and the ref would call a foul. Tough to play basketball with some of those random calls. Z's technical was bad, and so was the intentional foul by McFadden. It seemed like we couldn't get into a rhythm. It seemed like everybody was in foul trouble, and the announcers made no comment about it. That seemed to be pretty important. What's with the announcers being so Anti Duke? I enjoyed (sarcasm) the announcer making the comment that everybody says Duke gets every call, and that must be what Coach K is saying to the official. It’s funny to listen to the announcers get in some cheap shots at Duke.

Ben63
02-17-2008, 09:22 PM
This proves what happens when certain things don't happen for us. Those certain things are:

1) Hit the 3ball with consistancy.
2) Make Free Throws
3) Stay out of foul trouble

Duke wins when these 3 things happen and sometimes when only 2 of the 3 happen. This game also proves the importance of Kyle Singler not only staying out of foul trouble, but shooting the 3 with effectivness.

loran16
02-17-2008, 09:23 PM
I apologize for the heat of my comments in the chat today.

Naturally i was tense.

Where to begin. Personally i care less about commentating than i do about camera angles...the behind the basket cam during FTs is miserable.

On the Game:

Demarc-Solid offensive effort in the first 25 minutes and then disappeared. Grade: B-

Singler: Once again solid offensive effort (especially early in the 2nd half). Still, he has a couple issues.....like dumb fouls in the backcourt for no reason. Which really, REALLY , cost us this game. B-

Paulus: After a couple great games, he had issues tonight. Which is fine, the reason we're better this year is smith can normally back him up. C.

Thomas: Not as bad as classic lance, but not the inspired play of late either. Still showed some flashes and had some bad calls on him. C.

Henderson: I agree with previous comments here....bench henderson for smith or scheyer until he's fully healed. The starters' minutes cannot make the healing go faster, and he's playing like crap. C-

Scheyer: .........WHERED YOU GO MAN! Scheyer's been the target of a redonkulous hatred recently since pitt by thebiglead, and it really annoyed me. But this is the type of performance which wont help much. F. Nothing redeeming about your play today man.

Smith: Man of hte match for duke. A++++. Shouldve played more minutes to be honest, but that's fine. Kept us in it late.

Mcclure: Bipolar today. Some great defense, + some terrible defense, + a couple fo shot attempts (misses). Nothing much to see here. C.

King: Played for like 2 minutes, got the ball inside and blocked easily. didnt play long enough for a grade, but wouldnt be too much help....he's too slow.

Zoubek: Didnt block well when in, and got blocked by a smaller guy. F. You advantage Zoo is your height....when you waste it like that, i mean cmon.

----------------------------------------------------------

Hopefully feldspar is right and we rebound from this......such an awful loss.

godukerocks
02-17-2008, 09:23 PM
Perhaps because Brando, Elmore, et al are paid extremely well to at least posit objective, decently-reasoned thoughts about both teams in a balanced manner. Lofty, I know - but true, nevertheless.


How can you not just love Len Elmore's commentary?

He's a terp too!

mgtr
02-17-2008, 09:24 PM
As long as Henderson is injured, and unable/unwilling to provide offense, we have a big problem. Since Thomas provides little offense, we have three to rely on -- and if one is off, as Paulus was tonight, our points have to come from two starters plus subs. Now McClure and Zoubek give us virtually no points, so we have Smith (who was great tonight), Scheyer (about as good as Paulus tonight on the offensive end), and King (in Coach K's doghouse, apparently).
My point is, with Henderson injured, we have a big, big problem, and our season may go downhill quickly. Now Wake played great tonight, and played us real smart. But, on a normal night, we would have overcome what they were doing. You have to expect to be "homered" by the refs every so often, but a great team has enough arrows in its quivers to overcome that. Tonight, we were short a couple of arrows.

The1Bluedevil
02-17-2008, 09:24 PM
Wake will be scary good in 08-09

jimmymax
02-17-2008, 09:25 PM
Nolan was certainly a bright spot. G's wrist has me concerned. What's up with that?

Duvall
02-17-2008, 09:26 PM
Perhaps because Brando, Elmore, et al are paid extremely well to at least posit objective, decently-reasoned thoughts about both teams in a balanced manner. Lofty, I know - but true, nevertheless.

Yeah, well, life ain't fair. You should probably save your energy for worrying about something that actually matters.

dukienyc
02-17-2008, 09:26 PM
Does anyone know what's underneath the black tape on the team's uniforms? I've noticed it on UNC's and Wake's as well. Are they covering the ACC logo or a Nike logo? or something else? If so, why?
Thanks!

diesel
02-17-2008, 09:27 PM
So we lost. But I was tremendously encouraged by the play of Nolan Smith. A star is born!

Next play.

pfrduke
02-17-2008, 09:28 PM
Yeah, well, life ain't fair. You should probably save your energy for worrying about something that actually matters.

shoot, if that's the standard, there's not a whole lot to worry about (maybe your point).

this thread is generally going to be a disaster of hair pulling and clothes rending - let people vent; it'll make them feel better.

Classof06
02-17-2008, 09:28 PM
I thought Zoubek should have played a bit more. If I'm not mistaken, he didn't play at all after he was assessed a Technical, a technical he didn't at all deserve. Not only did we need Brian but keeping him out of the game after stuff like that can't be good for his confidence.

We were clearly having trouble getting rebounds and it's hard to say Brian wouldn't have helped. I keep saying it, this kid is going to have to log legit minutes if we're going to go deep this year. I truly don't believe there's any way around it. I know he isn't exactly a Naismith candidate but this team needs Brian whether or not they realize it.

FireOgilvie
02-17-2008, 09:29 PM
Does anyone know what's underneath the black tape on the team's uniforms? I've noticed it on UNC's and Wake's as well. Are they covering the ACC logo or a Nike logo? or something else? If so, why?
Thanks!

In honor of the victims of the shooting at Virginia Tech.

KandG
02-17-2008, 09:30 PM
Looks like the meltdown is on, but I agree with everyone that says we were due for this loss, though I certainly wish we didn't disintegrate the way we did at the end.

Only thing I can add is that I felt like K making the Battier comparison was bound to be a jinx -- Kyle responded with his most freshman-like game in a while, full of dumb mental mistakes and turnovers galore. His final foul was a perfect capper -- goes in against three defenders with guys open on the perimeter and fouls out with a charge. He could have had two fouls tonight if he had just played smarter.

I'm concerned about Gerald, because we need his penetration and mid-range jumper when teams apply the blueprint Wake did tonight (quickness on perimeter, size inside, willingness to mix up defenses). Otherwise, I look forward to seeing how we bounce back against Miami.

UrinalCake
02-17-2008, 09:30 PM
I only saw the second half, but our offense looked like four guys standing around while the ballhandler tried to beat his man one-on-one. There didn't seem to be any movement, and very little energy to the team. What a bummer.

Classof06
02-17-2008, 09:31 PM
How can you not just love Len Elmore's commentary?

He's a terp too!

Call me crazy but I actually like Len Elmore calling our games. A lot.

77devil
02-17-2008, 09:31 PM
So was the yellow tie worn by Coach K. Classy move.

dbd4ever
02-17-2008, 09:33 PM
Through all of this it is just a regular season loss. And I would much rather see this team takes a bump now a learn from it instead of hitting the hard time in a tournament game. We saw what happened when everything doesn't come together but to be honest we were still in this game all the way to about the 1:40 mark in the game. And that was with 5 people fouled out(probably a first). Let's take our shots and learn from it and hopefully steam roll into the conference tourney and the big dance. So let's vent it out tonight and be ready for the next game to get behind these guys through the rest of this season no matter what happens. Go Duke!!

Ben63
02-17-2008, 09:33 PM
Does anyone know what's underneath the black tape on the team's uniforms? I've noticed it on UNC's and Wake's as well. Are they covering the ACC logo or a Nike logo? or something else? If so, why?
Thanks!

All the ACC team are wearing black strips for VaTech and the shootings that happened in April. The teams can wear them wherever they like.

TJ99
02-17-2008, 09:33 PM
So was the yellow tie worn by Coach K. Classy move.

I agree - very classy!!

CDu
02-17-2008, 09:36 PM
I thought Zoubek should have played a bit more. If I'm not mistaken, he didn't play at all after he was assessed a Technical, a technical he didn't at all deserve. Not only did we need Brian but keeping him out of the game after stuff like that can't be good for his confidence.

We were clearly having trouble getting rebounds and it's hard to say Brian wouldn't have helped. I keep saying it, this kid is going to have to log legit minutes if we're going to go deep this year. I truly don't believe there's any way around it. I know he isn't exactly a Naismith candidate but this team needs Brian whether or not they realize it.

Zoubek didn't play because he was very ineffective while he was in. Wake made a big run early, and he was a part of that. The guy just isn't up to ACC speed yet. And Wake plays at such a tempo that he is an even bigger liability.

It would be nice if Zoubek could give us something. His size could really change games. But he's just not moving at the speed of college basketball, and as such is a liability. Until he can catch up to the speed and athleticism of the college game, he's not going to get significant minutes and he's not going to provide us much.

weezie
02-17-2008, 09:36 PM
Bernard Clinton was just nominated for the Karl Hess award.

BobbyFan
02-17-2008, 09:36 PM
My biggest concern is Gerald Henderson. Since the unc game with the wrist injury he has been a near non-factor offensively as he's no longer looking for his shot.

This is by far the most troubling development. Gerald has put up 3 and 4 FGAs in the past 2 games, his lowest and 2nd lowest figures for the season. He clearly had the opportunity several times to rise for the mid range jumper but just didn't take it. With an offense that relies on balance and versatility, this injury changes our dynamic.

BlueintheFace
02-17-2008, 09:37 PM
Well, at least we have proof now that Singler is definitely still a Freshman, After a few awesome games, we got this one. Typical freshmen mistakes... silly turnovers (6) and some really bad fouls. At least he put the ball in the basket. Still... a pretty awful game for the freshman.

On the other hand, Nolan tore it up. Granted, a lot of those were on uncontested layups down the stretch, but still. good job nolan

captmojo
02-17-2008, 09:38 PM
Duke did not play well enough to deserve the win. Too many missed, close shots. Too many free throws clanked away. Improper defensive play on the perimeter. I'd like to see a rematch in the tournament...........but not with this group of blind mice in stripes. The bump-outs on the baseline, that hotheaded Brian Zoubek:rolleyes: , the intentional on Wake's center, the forarm shiver Thomas took at the 7:00 minute mark, The pull down of Singler at the free throw line after the over-and-back. That's enough. Man of the match........Coach K, for keeping his cool when the chips were all falling down around him. I'm not one who could have kept a chair from getting a flying lesson, a la Bobby Knight.

BlueDevilBaby
02-17-2008, 09:39 PM
WTF with the yellow tie! Classy move, but. . . . Turned the game off in the first half since Duke was playing so terrible. Just had that feeling. Weren't getting any threes, no turnovers, any easy buckets, etc. Where was the patented run? Smith was the MOM, IMO. Way to be aggressive. No one else was. Kept expecting Kyle to take over. Well deservied win Wake, you outmatched Duke in all areas tonight. On to the next one. Still a game up on the Tarholes!

WeepingThomasHill
02-17-2008, 09:40 PM
CDu is right on. Zoubek is a complete liability right now. Can't defend, rebound, run the floor or catch an entry pass. He is just not fully back from the injury. We really can't afford for him to be out there against a team like Wake. There may be a spot role for him against a Hansborough or a Hibbert, but this wasn't the game for him and he cost us. I just hope he can become Aaron Gray by his senior year, and not the next Marty Nessley.

Constantstrain 81
02-17-2008, 09:40 PM
COngrats to WF - I guess if we had to lose a game, I would want it to be at WF this year (plus it may help them to get into the tournament).

We played with some energy, but without passion at times. We were not sharp or focused and stupid turnovers and missed free throws ensued. It didn't help that most free throws were taken by our worst free throw shooters most of the time. The free throws and turnovers kept Wake in the game in the first half - having Singler on the bench with foul trouble didn't help.

Scheyer and Paulus will have their best success shooting the three when we drive and kick. However, tonight, Nelson mainly drove and shot (or attempted to). Henderson drove, but Wake simply fell back and gave him the shot (which he didn't take). In both cases, there was a definite lack of openings for Paulus and Scheyer accordingly. Singler wasn't in the game because of fouls. Just as we have won as a result of teamwork and balance - tonight we lost as a result of a lack of this.

Wake made their big run in the second half with Nelson and Singler on the bench with four. In fact, we fouled out five starters in the end - but the impact was felt much earlier in the half when an awful lot of Duke players picked up their 4th or 3rd. I actually thought that Wake was more aggressive early - literally pushing the Blue Devils around with no games. That, of course, is fine - but only as long as we can push back. That did not seem to be the case. Wake's defense produced "blocked shots" and "charges" - Duke's were touch fouls and blocks. It sure did not seem equitable (the final fouls numbers certainly bear that out) with both teams looking to play physical. First Nelson and then Henderson were both bumped hard out of bounds with no calls. Scheyer took it to the hoop, was bumped off balance, and missed the layup - no call.

The foul inconsistencies coupled with the turnovers coupled with the free throws coupled with at least 10 stupid turnovers (those not forced by Wake) coupled with Gerald playing one handed ... well, I guess you can't couple that many things together and have a good game.

Ben63
02-17-2008, 09:41 PM
Do we have to vote for a MOTM?? I guess Nolan Smith but they all played like crap.

mapei
02-17-2008, 09:42 PM
I thought the announcers were fine, pretty fair and even-handed. I know sometimes guys like Packer and Elmore are anti-Duke, but I just didn't hear any of that tonight, except perhaps to mention the bad call on the intentional a couple too many times. But it WAS a bad call.

We were outhustled and outrebounded big time by Wake tonight. We've lived on quickness all year, but tonight ran up against a team that
s quicker than us. They made every one of our players, with the exception of Nolan Smith, look like a much worse version of himself.

I too am concerned about Henderson. If he can't contribute, let him heal!

OldSchool
02-17-2008, 09:42 PM
I thought Zoubek should have played a bit more. If I'm not mistaken, he didn't play at all after he was assessed a Technical, a technical he didn't at all deserve. Not only did we need Brian but keeping him out of the game after stuff like that can't be good for his confidence.

We were clearly having trouble getting rebounds and it's hard to say Brian wouldn't have helped. I keep saying it, this kid is going to have to log legit minutes if we're going to go deep this year. I truly don't believe there's any way around it. I know he isn't exactly a Naismith candidate but this team needs Brian whether or not they realize it.

Z did make one more very brief appearance after that.

From what I could tell trying to lip-read, after the foul by Zoubek, McFarland must have said something chippy upon which Brian turned to the official and said something like "what was that about?", and then promptly got T'd up. It seemed completely undeserved.

I would have played Zoubek more in a game like this when we were just getting muscled around by Johnson. Brian is not only tall but strong. But with a team as quick as Wake, they can't just have him switching out there on the perimeter, they need to make adjustments on the defensive scheme to let Z be effective.

dukestheheat
02-17-2008, 09:42 PM
Duke did not play well enough to deserve the win. Too many missed, close shots. Too many free throws clanked away. Improper defensive play on the perimeter. I'd like to see a rematch in the tournament...........but not with this group of blind mice in stripes. The bump-outs on the baseline, that hotheaded Brian Zoubek:rolleyes: , the intentional on Wake's center, the forarm shiver Thomas took at the 7:00 minute mark, The pull down of Singler at the free throw line after the over-and-back. That's enough. Man of the match........Coach K, for keeping his cool when the chips were all falling down around him. I'm not one who could have kept a chair from getting a flying lesson, a la Bobby Knight.

He seemed totally impassive and almost detached...I did see him up a few times and getting it going with the refs, but not like usual. The whole team seemed like they were still walking to Winston to play the game?!

This was just a weird game and I think we learn from something about the game, but unlike Pittsburgh, we will 'throw this one out'. Like in scientific trials, you sometimes have 'artifacts'. This game was an artifact for Duke, I believe. Proof Point 1: All five of our starters fouled out. Ever seen that? No.

Weird.

dth.

oso diablo
02-17-2008, 09:44 PM
just got back from the game, and reading the comments about Scheyer's game tonight. haven't seen it mentioned in this thread, but he limped off the court at one point in the first half, and just looked off all night after that.

Lots of energy in the building. Lots of things i didn't like, but i am happy to see Wake playing well. I was worried whether their new coach could get it done at this level. They looked pretty well coached to me.

DevilDad
02-17-2008, 09:44 PM
A question for anyone listening to Bob Harris tonight. At the final buzzer he said the Wake kids were storming the floor (expected of course), but he said there would be no hand-shake line because our guys may be in danger, or something to that effect. Maybe tongue-in-cheek, but it did seem like the Deacs were a litte chippy near the end. Thoughts?

mapei
02-17-2008, 09:45 PM
Do we have to vote for a MOTM?? I guess Nolan Smith but they all played like crap.


Or could we vote for Teague? He was the best player on the floor IMO.

weezie
02-17-2008, 09:45 PM
YES!! Give the capt a CIGAR. Sorry if it sounds like sour grapes but we were completely horse-collared! The entire starting 5 fouls out? I'd like to see that happen inside the Deandome. :mad:

Hey Playcaller, how's about you give us a lesson on this ludicrosity?

mehmattski
02-17-2008, 09:45 PM
Duke did not play well enough to deserve the win. Too many missed, close shots. Too many free throws clanked away. Improper defensive play on the perimeter. I'd like to see a rematch in the tournament...........but not with this group of blind mice in stripes. The bump-outs on the baseline, that hotheaded Brian Zoubek:rolleyes: , the intentional on Wake's center, the forarm shiver Thomas took at the 7:00 minute mark, The pull down of Singler at the free throw line after the over-and-back. That's enough. Man of the match........Coach K, for keeping his cool when the chips were all falling down around him. I'm not one who could have kept a chair from getting a flying lesson, a la Bobby Knight.

Man, did Wal-Mart have a sale on blue-colored glasses?

1) Zoubek's technical: there are some things you just can't say during a game. If Brian said one of those things, he absolutely deserved it.
2) The intentional foul was pretty questionable. MacFarlane was playing the ball and didn't take a swipe at Henderson, he took a two handed swing at the ball (and hit it, I might add).
3) Not sure what forearm you're referring to, but Thomas himself was not playing with much poise and control the whole game- Thomas does a lot of shoving underneath the basket, and paid for it with fouls tonight.
4) Singler was absolutely not pulled down on that play. If anything, that should have been a foul on Kyle for taking out the Wake player's knees. But both players were continuing their momentum and a correct no-call was made.

To blame the game on the referees is to sink to the level of hot-headed opposing fans. Although, this game is good fodder for the next time a Terp/UNC/UK fan pulls the "Duke gets all the calls" crap, because frequently those folks look only at free throw numbers, and Wake made more free throws (27) than Duke attempted (25) tonight. Style of play dictates those numbers more than anything. Particularly, sloppy play dictates those numbers...

Kilby
02-17-2008, 09:45 PM
Those that blame match up problems are absolutely right. But with the steady play of Singler, the improvement of Lance and the toughness of Henderson and Nelsonn and Duke's great help rotations I do not worry about the match-ups down low. The biggest matchup problem is whoever Paulus is guarding. Wakes guards are too quick for him and he's too small to guard anyone else. Paulus has been a great spot up shooter for Duke with nerves of steel but he has been a defensive liability often this season. Duke plays great help D but if the other teams PG is continually getting penetration it leads to points or foul trouble. The guys down low have to move to cut off the penetrator then they have poor position to defend the man they left. Why was Paulus playing D with his back to his man? Because that was the only way that he could stay ahead of him.

oso diablo
02-17-2008, 09:45 PM
A question for anyone listening to Bob Harris tonight. At the final buzzer he said the Wake kids were storming the floor (expected of course), but he said there would be no hand-shake line because our guys may be in danger, or something to that effect. Maybe tongue-in-cheek, but it did seem like the Deacs were a litte chippy near the end. Thoughts?
the Wake students come in from the end zone by the Duke bench. it gets pretty chaotic when they storm.

Duvall
02-17-2008, 09:46 PM
Yo, feldspar - a question re the over-and-back call with ~2:00 minutes left. Was that good or bad? Can you gain possession by tipping a loose ball?

KandG
02-17-2008, 09:46 PM
A question for anyone listening to Bob Harris tonight. At the final buzzer he said the Wake kids were storming the floor (expected of course), but he said there would be no hand-shake line because our guys may be in danger, or something to that effect. Maybe tongue-in-cheek, but it did seem like the Deacs were a litte chippy near the end. Thoughts?


I'm under the impression the players are coached to leave the court immediately when fans storm it, to avoid any chippy incidents or overzealous fans. I don't think it had anything to do with the way the Wake team was behaving specifically.

duketaylor
02-17-2008, 09:46 PM
I told my wife, as the 1st half went along how bad I thought it was, then as the 2nd half unfolded it got worse, IMO. Then Duke lost 5 starters, not sure I've ever seen that. Maybe 3 or 4. In watching the game and replays I'm commenting on the calls, both ways, about how bad they are. (I have coached for 6 years and understand what a foul is...or is NOT) Of couse, wife thinks I'm a nut, but knows better. Again, worst game-calling I've seen in a long time. A long, long time. I'll guess this crew never calls another ACC game. Any way to track that? They shouldn't. I'm not overly concerned that Duke lost, just in the process in which they did.
I'm not saying Duke should've won, but that was awful.

grc5
02-17-2008, 09:46 PM
Our offense was totally out of rhythm tonight, and I'm totally pinning the blame on Paulus. He just could not do anything in the face of the WF defensive pressure, and could not get us into our offensive sets...
The rumors of the death of the Smith vs. Paulus debate have been greatly exaggerated.

captmojo
02-17-2008, 09:46 PM
The team did so much that was not right, K could only smile while the camera was on, and shake his head. The team did not appear to have the toughness they needed for this contest.

It's bedtime. Better dreams everyone!

RelativeWays
02-17-2008, 09:47 PM
We beat the holes.

Keep that in mind in times like these.

Sorry but "WE BEAT UNC" doesn't count for crap when losing to Wake, and lets remember that the holes have a return engagement as well.

feldspar
02-17-2008, 09:48 PM
I told my wife, as the 1st half went along how bad I thought it was, then as the 2nd half unfolded it got worse, IMO. Then Duke lost 5 starters, not sure I've ever seen that. Maybe 3 or 4. In watching the game and replays I'm commenting on the calls, both ways, about how bad they are. (I have coached for 6 years and understand what a foul is...or is NOT) Of couse, wife thinks I'm a nut, but knows better. Again, worst game-calling I've seen in a long time. A long, long time. I'll guess this crew never calls another ACC game. Any way to track that? They shouldn't. I'm not overly concerned that Duke lost, just in the process in which they did.
I'm not Duke should've won, but that was awful.

One of the worst-played Duke games I've seen in a while, so I guess they're even.

hurleyfor3
02-17-2008, 09:48 PM
This game doesn't bother me. If we're going to have Just One Of Those Off Nights, there are worse teams to have it against than Wake.

BTW, Wake, the world of dance music thinks it's funny your official song is a track that's NINE years old now.

CatfiveCane
02-17-2008, 09:49 PM
The statement bolded above is just flat wrong. See what he did to Wayne Ellington in the UNC game.

Watch parts of the Duke/UNC game. Clearly Scheyer is not guarding Ellington most of the game. Also Ellington is just missing flat out missing open shots. I will say Scheyer did have some nice 3-point shots, and a nice steal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaON-jjKEHc&feature=related

feldspar
02-17-2008, 09:49 PM
BTW, Wake, the world of dance music thinks it's funny your official song is a track that's NINE years old now.

Tell it to Pepsi.

Section 8
02-17-2008, 09:50 PM
I used to like this board, but I may as well be reading the UNC/KY/FLA boards. Seems like half the posts are from fans of those schools anyway. Where are all the Duke fans? And when was the last time all 5 starters fouled out of an ACC game? If you look at all the posts I have ever posted, you will see exactly 0 (zero) comments about officiating, but this was ridiculous. The missed calls went both ways, and Duke played like a team full of freshmen, but the officials seemed to give the calls to whoever had the momentum at the time, which was Wake most of the time. I counted 5 baseline force-outs not called, and innumerable uncalled hacks in the paint matched by muggings uncalled at the other end. I hate to call out officials because they normally do a decent job, but this was pathetic. Don't get me wrong, Duke didn't show up tonight, and played with no composure and no confidence, but, despite that, we were still up 5 in the second half. Just a game that I will concentrate on forgetting as soon as possible.

jipops
02-17-2008, 09:51 PM
I told my wife, as the 1st half went along how bad I thought it was, then as the 2nd half unfolded it got worse, IMO. Then Duke lost 5 starters, not sure I've ever seen that. Maybe 3 or 4. In watching the game and replays I'm commenting on the calls, both ways, about how bad they are. (I have coached for 6 years and understand what a foul is...or is NOT) Of couse, wife thinks I'm a nut, but knows better. Again, worst game-calling I've seen in a long time. A long, long time. I'll guess this crew never calls another ACC game. Any way to track that? They shouldn't. I'm not overly concerned that Duke lost, just in the process in which they did.
I'm not Duke should've won, but that was awful.

Though I didn't see it, I'm pretty sure the 1972 USA vs. Russia game was worse.

We lost 5 guys to fouls against Maryland back in '05 and 4 guys to fouls vs. WFU in '05 as well. We also lost ~4 guys to fouls vs. UConn in '04. Don't think they were all starters but we've suffered that kind of attrition before.

Not a great called game but it had no bearing on the outcome. The team that deserved to win won tonight. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

feldspar
02-17-2008, 09:53 PM
Though I didn't see it, I'm pretty sure the 1972 USA vs. Russia game was worse.

We lost 5 guys to fouls against Maryland back in '05 and 4 guys to fouls vs. WFU in '05 as well. We also lost ~4 guys to fouls vs. UConn in '04. Don't think they were all starters but we've suffered that kind of attrition before.

Not a great called game but it had no bearing on the outcome. The team that deserved to win won tonight. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

Oh, stop it with your stats and logic. We want blood! :D

luigi90
02-17-2008, 09:55 PM
Man, did Wal-Mart have a sale on blue-colored glasses?

1) Zoubek's technical: there are some things you just can't say during a game. If Brian said one of those things, he absolutely deserved it.
2) The intentional foul was pretty questionable. MacFarlane was playing the ball and didn't take a swipe at Henderson, he took a two handed swing at the ball (and hit it, I might add).
3) Not sure what forearm you're referring to, but Thomas himself was not playing with much poise and control the whole game- Thomas does a lot of shoving underneath the basket, and paid for it with fouls tonight.
4) Singler was absolutely not pulled down on that play. If anything, that should have been a foul on Kyle for taking out the Wake player's knees. But both players were continuing their momentum and a correct no-call was made.

To blame the game on the referees is to sink to the level of hot-headed opposing fans. Although, this game is good fodder for the next time a Terp/UNC/UK fan pulls the "Duke gets all the calls" crap, because frequently those folks look only at free throw numbers, and Wake made more free throws (27) than Duke attempted (25) tonight. Style of play dictates those numbers more than anything. Particularly, sloppy play dictates those numbers...

I don't think anyone on here is gonna blame this loss on the refs--we clearly did not play a good game and Wake played with lots of energy down the stretch. Having said that, I am pretty sure this is the same crew (or similar) that created that foul fest in the Duke-Miami game a couple of weeks ago and the way the game was refereed certainly effected the result. They just simply called too many fouls--say what you want but there was a stretch in the second half when every foul, either offensive or defensive was called on us. It clearly changed the momentum in the game.

What was unfortunate was that we never reacted to the momentum change. Up until that point the game was very back and forth. We just didnt respond in the last 8 minutes.

For what its worth the last time i remember this many starters fouling out (4 before we even were trying to foul) was a game at Wake several years ago (maybe 2003).

Here's to playing a better next game with a different referee crew.

luigi90
02-17-2008, 09:56 PM
I am not blaming the refs for this loss, however, I am wondering if anyone can recall a game when all of the starters fouled out? I don't think I have ever seen this before.


closest thing i recall was the 2004 final four game against UCONN when that crew fouled out our entire front line

Ben63
02-17-2008, 09:57 PM
Though I didn't see it, I'm pretty sure the 1972 USA vs. Russia game was worse.



Didn't think about that one but you're definantly right.

There have been worse games in history but this is one of the worst this year IMO.

Still no excuse for losing, we had our chances.

CDu
02-17-2008, 09:59 PM
According to the ESPN stat sheet, not one Duke player had more assists than turnovers. Henderson and Nelson both totaled 3 assists and three turnovers. Everyone else either had a negative differential in that department, or played less than 5 minutes.

Just a poorly played game by several of our key guys. I'm not sure what the deal was. The focus and intensity didn't seem to be there. Wake was more aggressive and more focused, and we didn't match them.

It's a big win for Wake. They played really hard and a few of their guys played really well. I could do without the antics of McFarland and Williams, but Teague and Johnson had really fantastic games. Wake deserved the win, and we didn't. It's just frustrating for the team to not bring their game against an inferior opponent, and let them mop the floor with us.

KandG
02-17-2008, 09:59 PM
I'm in the extreme minority here, but this is one of the few games I've seen Duke play where I wasn't terribly upset with five starters fouling out, because the foul situation revealed all too well how unprepared the team was mentally and physically, and how much Wake took it to us with their aggressive play and their quickness.

Markie's fifth foul was very questionable to me, and he had one other foul that seemed peculiar. The other players pretty much earned their disqualifications with poor defense or mental errors.

I think K will use the five starters fouling out to show them just how unprepared they were for Wake's aggressiveness, and what the consequences are for not showing up ready to play. This was ugly.

Again, Wake had the blueprint for beating us today, by defending the perimeter aggressively and shutting off drives inside (mainly by Markie and a very off-kilter Scheyer). Singler is usually the X-factor with the way he creates mismatches, but he was forcing too much and he didn't have his outside shot for the most part...actually, no one did. And Gerald's injury and its impact on our offensive options has already been hashed out heavily here.

sandinmyshoes
02-17-2008, 09:59 PM
As that game rolled along I was remind of a comment DBR used in one of their game recaps, I think it was the UNC game. Speed kills. It killed us tonight.

But, that's ACC basketball. Earlier in the year UNC was rolling and we were struggling. Then all of a sudden, we're rolling and they struggle. Now they destroy VT and we get handled by Wake. Throw in nice run Maryland is putting together after a rough start, and it's so typical ACC that I wonder why I'm surprised by it every year. :confused:

mgtr
02-17-2008, 10:00 PM
Our offense was totally out of rhythm tonight, and I'm totally pinning the blame on Paulus. He just could not do anything in the face of the WF defensive pressure, and could not get us into our offensive sets...
The rumors of the death of the Smith vs. Paulus debate have been greatly exaggerated.

I wondered how long this would take. Why single out Paulus? True, he didn't have a very good game. But what about Thomas -- didn't do much. Singler scored some points, but made silly fouls and even sillier turnovers. Henderson, well Gerald just didn't show up tonight (probably because of bad wrist). Nelson most certainly scored some points and gave it his all, but he ran out of gas in second half, and ran out of free throw shooting throughout. Scheyer -- no, not much. Smith was a bright spot, but he was about the only one. McClure, well you don't expect him to score. I would just mark this one down as a team loss, with the man of the match being on the other team.
I can only hope we learn as much from this as we obviously did from the Pitt loss.

DevilDad
02-17-2008, 10:01 PM
Yes, congrads to Deacon Nation, a well tough fought game. We flat out sucked. I will say, that it is my hope that the clowns officiating the game get sent down to division 2.

gofurman
02-17-2008, 10:01 PM
WF is precisely the type of team we have serious matchup problems with. They have size, they're extremely athletic and quick, they rarely lose at home, and unlike UNC - they play DEFENSE. No one should be at all surprised at this loss.

My biggest concern is Gerald Henderson. Since the unc game with the wrist injury he has been a near non-factor offensively as he's no longer looking for his shot. This is a huge deal for the rest of the season. Sounds like he could be playing through it through the remainder of the year.

With the exception of the turnovers I didn't think we actually played that poorly, we were simply over-matched. The Deacs were quicker and we couldn't guard them which led to the foul issues.

Again, this loss should come as no surprise to anyone who has been following ACC hoops outside of duke and unc.

EXACTLY - Henderson is becoming a non-factor Offensively. Dunk or nothing. He has regressed from that beautiful mid-range game he put on at Maryland. Great defender and rebounder, etc. But we NEED his offense also. Last game the comments were - "oh, he is just in a funk". That "funk" seems very coorelated to his injury 4 games ago. And those 10/12 points and the respect of the opposing defesne are a HUGE LOSS.

It's not this one loss that bothers me - it's the Henderson trend.

*One last thought - Paulus has improved greatly but still needs a mid-range jumper. He is either a 3 or a kick out... rarely takes the 5-10 footer most teams give him.

Section 8
02-17-2008, 10:02 PM
Duke did not play well enough to deserve the win.

So, how were we up by 5 in the second half?

UrinalCake
02-17-2008, 10:03 PM
Was anyone else really irritated by the "limp-wristed throwing style" of the Wake point guard? The way he just dangles his right hand out there... and then he constantly waves it to tell his teammates to clear out, but there's no one anywhere near him! Jeez.

(gotta find something to criticize them for, I guess)

feldspar
02-17-2008, 10:04 PM
So, how were we up by 5 in the second half?

Because the game is 40 minutes long.

mehmattski
02-17-2008, 10:04 PM
I don't think anyone on here is gonna blame this loss on the refs--we clearly did not play a good game and Wake played with lots of energy down the stretch. Having said that, I am pretty sure this is the same crew (or similar) that created that foul fest in the Duke-Miami game a couple of weeks ago and the way the game was refereed certainly effected the result. They just simply called too many fouls--say what you want but there was a stretch in the second half when every foul, either offensive or defensive was called on us. It clearly changed the momentum in the game.

The refs for Miami @ Duke were: Roger Ayers, Bernard Clinton, Jerry Heater

Not sure what you mean about the fouls in that particular game, since the fouls called were similar to the Duke @ Wake game, except reversed: Miami committed 31 fouls to Duke's 23. According to the boxscore (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22726&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1381258), there was never a stretch where Duke was called for more than two consecutive fouls, while Miami had several stretches where they were called for three consecutive fouls.

BigTedder
02-17-2008, 10:05 PM
Everybody join in....BLIND, DEAF, WE WANT.......

CDu
02-17-2008, 10:05 PM
So, how were we up by 5 in the second half?

The game of basketball is (at least) 40 minutes long, so being up 5 at one point is not mutually exclusive with not playing well enough to win. We played just well enough to win for about 30 minutes. The last ten minutes we were thoroughly outplayed. Thus, we did not play well enough to win.

365Duke
02-17-2008, 10:06 PM
So, how were we up by 5 in the second half?

A 31-13 run kills that.

Section 8
02-17-2008, 10:09 PM
Because the game is 40 minutes long.

I'm just saying that you are all very quick to write off the effort. We fought back and took the lead, and noone here seems to care. Yeah, we played like crap most of the game, but give this team a little bit of credit. Aren't you supposed to be Duke fans?

mehmattski
02-17-2008, 10:10 PM
A 31-13 run kills that.

Starting with the TV timeout with 11:14 remaining, Duke's offensive possessions:

1) D-Marc missed a layup
2) D-Marc missed a layup (blocked)
3) Offensive foul on D-Marc
4) Paulus shot clock violation
5) Smith made two FTs
6) Singler missed 3
7) Scheyer missed 3
8) Offensive foul on Mclure
9) Smith missed 3
10) Henderson offensive foul
11) Henderson turnover
12) Nelson missed 3
13) Scheyer missed jumper (blocked)
14) Henderson missed jumper
15) Scheyer missed layup
16) Paulus missed jumper
17) Singler made 2 FTs
18) Nelsom missed jumper

at that point it was 72-63 with 4:14 remaining, before Paulus hit a 3.

And even with that, it was a 6 point game with 2 minutes left when Singler had a wide-open look from the top of the key... and it rattled out. If he makes that, it's a much different final two minutes. Might be the same result because of the foul trouble, though.

feldspar
02-17-2008, 10:12 PM
Aren't you supposed to be Duke fans?

What would make you think that?

Kilby
02-17-2008, 10:12 PM
Duke's offense is a beautiful when it runs well but it needs both Henderson and Nelson to be threats to slash for the mid range or drive, thus freeing Paulus for the three. As long as Henderson is playing with one hand I give Duke very little chance of getting very far come tournament time. I would rest Henderson if it would help his wrist.

luigi90
02-17-2008, 10:12 PM
The refs for Miami @ Duke were: Roger Ayers, Bernard Clinton, Jerry Heater

Not sure what you mean about the fouls in that particular game, since the fouls called were similar to the Duke @ Wake game, except reversed: Miami committed 31 fouls to Duke's 23. According to the boxscore (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22726&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1381258), there was never a stretch where Duke was called for more than two consecutive fouls, while Miami had several stretches where they were called for three consecutive fouls.

If you are trying to be critical you should read my post more carefully. I never suggested that the refs hurt Duke in the Miami game. I just said it was an absolute foul fest (especially in the first half). Anytime the refs become the story, its a problem. Tonight, IMO, the refs were part of the story. I give lots of credit to Wake too. The refs handed them momentum, and they ran with it and outplayed our starterless team in the end. Bascially, too many fouls called in both games--let em play!

Lulu
02-17-2008, 10:13 PM
All I know is that that intentional foul almost could have changed the game and allowed Duke to win. We definitely get all the calls.

houstondukie
02-17-2008, 10:13 PM
People forget Duke is still a young team.

What team isn't young these days. Just look at Wake; they have no seniors and start 2 freshmen and 3 sophomores.

Sorry but I just don't buy the "young" argument anymore.

grc5
02-17-2008, 10:15 PM
I wondered how long this would take. Why single out Paulus? True, he didn't have a very good game. But what about Thomas -- didn't do much. Singler scored some points, but made silly fouls and even sillier turnovers. Henderson, well Gerald just didn't show up tonight (probably because of bad wrist). Nelson most certainly scored some points and gave it his all, but he ran out of gas in second half, and ran out of free throw shooting throughout. Scheyer -- no, not much. Smith was a bright spot, but he was about the only one. McClure, well you don't expect him to score. I would just mark this one down as a team loss, with the man of the match being on the other team.
I can only hope we learn as much from this as we obviously did from the Pitt loss.

We hear ad nauseum "Playing the PG at Duke is like playing QB at Notre Dame." When when the offense stalls, more often than not its the QB's fault. The Duke offense looked as if it had no game plan whatsoever. Paulus is supposed to be the coach on the floor, but he didn't look like it today. When your PG play is crummy, you don't give the other 4 players on the floor the CHANCE to succeed.

luigi90
02-17-2008, 10:17 PM
All I know is that that intentional foul almost could have changed the game and allowed Duke to win. We definitely get all the calls.


that was clearly a bad call (one of many on the night)...however, it appeared to be a case where the ref anticipated the contact because McFarland went up for a very hard foul with two hands (generally a clear sign you are looking to take someone down) but was so uncoordinated he missed Henderson's head and actually got some ball :)

CDu
02-17-2008, 10:17 PM
I'm just saying that you are all very quick to write off the effort. We fought back and took the lead, and noone here seems to care. Yeah, we played like crap most of the game, but give this team a little bit of credit. Aren't you supposed to be Duke fans?

No, I'm quick to say that the team did not perform well enough to deserve a win. We played hard to get the lead with 11 minutes to go. Wake then thoroughly outplayed us after that. Like I said, it's a 40-minute game. We didn't bring it for most of those 40 minutes. Had we done so, we might have won.

As for your last question, being able to point out when the team plays badly doesn't make you not a fan. It makes you aware of the obvious. Wake played really well. We did not. I'll still cheer just as hard for Duke next week (and every week thereafter), but it doesn't mean I have to be excited about our performance tonight.

rockymtn devil
02-17-2008, 10:19 PM
We didn't play well (lack of emotion and energy, looked tired and unathletic on defense, missed easy shots, etc.) and lost as a result. In terms of our ultimate goals this season (ACC Title and NCAA Title) I'd prefer our losses be games in which we don't play well. This team has now played a total of three bad games, IMO--Pitt, @FSU, @WF. That's pretty good for such a young team. I'll start to worry when we lose games to teams like Wake and, afterwards, the talk on here is that we played well and still lost. Until then, I can take a conference loss on the road to an upstart, athletic team we we play poorly.

mehmattski
02-17-2008, 10:22 PM
If you are trying to be critical you should read my post more carefully. I never suggested that the refs hurt Duke in the Miami game. I just said it was an absolute foul fest (especially in the first half). Anytime the refs become the story, its a problem. Tonight, IMO, the refs were part of the story. I give lots of credit to Wake too. The refs handed them momentum, and they ran with it and outplayed our starterless team in the end. Bascially, too many fouls called in both games--let em play!

I wasn't trying to be too critical, except that you noted to the effect of "every possession there was a foul called on us" which I took to mean against Duke. I was demonstrating that wasn't the case. There was a foul on about 75% of possessions in the first half, for both teams. If that's what you meant then I have no argument there.

I was also showing the refs for the Miami game... I have no idea who the refs were tonight. None of the major sites (ESPN, Yahoo, CBS, Fox) list them and goduke.com doesn't have the boxscore up. Who were the refs tonight?

Section 8
02-17-2008, 10:23 PM
This will be my 38th and final post here. Too much negativity. This is not 1991, 1992, or 2001. This is an over-achieving group of kids who have played a remarkable season thus far, and all most of you can do is start threads about whether we are really that good, or whether we rely on the 3 too much. Some of us have been following Duke ball since before many of you were born, and are delighted with this team's effort, win or lose. Thanks for the effort to teach me about the length of college basketball games, and I was shocked to learn that they don't have to retrieve the ball from the peach baskets anymore. Please just enjoy the magnificent effort these boys are putting forward for your enjoyment, and stop harping on things that, frankly, most of you don't know jack about.

Regards-
Section 8

DangerDevil
02-17-2008, 10:23 PM
The team just looked tired tonight especially DeMarcus, both physically and mentally. As evidenced by our poor shooting, lack of offensive movement leading to the scoreless streaks. Our mental mistakes would account for the turnovers and silly fouls (i.e. Singler’s two backcourt fouls).

The fact all five starters fouled out was just bizarre, the 05 Maryland game mentioned before wasn’t all five starters and that wasn’t until late in overtime.

feldspar
02-17-2008, 10:24 PM
We didn't play well (lack of emotion and energy, looked tired and unathletic on defense, missed easy shots, etc.) and lost as a result. In terms of our ultimate goals this season (ACC Title and NCAA Title) I'd prefer our losses be games in which we don't play well. This team has now played a total of three bad games, IMO--Pitt, @FSU, @WF. That's pretty good for such a young team. I'll start to worry when we lose games to teams like Wake and, afterwards, the talk on here is that we played well and still lost. Until then, I can take a conference loss on the road to an upstart, athletic team we we play poorly.

Well said. Very well said. This is the reason I just can't seem to get too upset about this loss. And just ask my wife, I'm usually not the most pleasant person to be around when Duke loses. But tonight? It's just an off night. I don't expect this to become a pattern.

houstondukie
02-17-2008, 10:24 PM
Nice gesture by Coach K and the staff for wearing gold ties in honor of Skip.

mehmattski
02-17-2008, 10:25 PM
This will be my 38th and final post here. Too much negativity. This is not 1991, 1992, or 2001. This is an over-achieving group of kids who have played a remarkable season thus far, and all most of you can do is start threads about whether we are really that good, or whether we rely on the 3 too much. Some of us have been following Duke ball since before many of you were born, and are delighted with this team's effort, win or lose. Thanks for the effort to teach me about the length of college basketball games, and I was shocked to learn that they don't have to retrieve the ball from the peach baskets anymore. Please just enjoy the magnificent effort these boys are putting forward for your enjoyment, and stop harping on things that, frankly, most of you don't know jack about.

Regards-
Section 8

Ahhhhhhhhhhh.... SEE-YA!

EDIT: All right, don't want to be completely arrogant. But if you want a place to see only what you want to read, it's best if you head somewhere else. If you want a game broken down by some of the most knowledgeable Duke fans anywhere, you should stay. All I know is, I personally don't go anywhere else to learn about Duke basketball.

dukepsy1963
02-17-2008, 10:26 PM
We knew this was coming... at least I think I did.

The entire Duke squad deserved the loss. Each of them played well enough to lose tonight. It happens.

This regular "Duke team" just didn't show up. Wake's did. Don't blame it on the refs. When we are playing well, we don't foul this much.

Tomorrow is another day...............:).

Mudge
02-17-2008, 10:26 PM
First Gminski tells us that Chazzzz McFarland is the chippiest player on the team (or did he say the league?) and that if anything happens, McF will be sticking his nose in there... then McFarland gets blocked/fouled by Zoubek, and McF starts mouthing off to Zoubek in his face-- the ref should have given a Technical foul immediately, to McF alone-- but Brando (is he even paying attention at all, at this point?) clearly misreads the event and declares that the ref has given Zoubek a Tech, when it was obvious from the very first viewing that the ref had completely lost the plot, and given both players a Tech, when all Zoubek had done was turn to the ref after McF started jawing at Z and very clearly asked "Oh, yeah, what is that?!" It took until the return from TV commercials for Brando to acknowledge that both players had gotten Techs, and Brando never once pointed out that Zoubek's Tech was completely unmerited and unfair.

Then, when McF later went after Henderson very aggressively and got a not-unmerited intentional foul, Brando went out of his way 3 or 4 more times to label the call dubious or questionable, and kept calling that play a key momentum shift in the game, despite the fact that Duke only got 1 extra point out of the possession. Moreover, if Brando had understood the McF/Zoubek sequence properly, he would have been saying that McF was lucky to have dodged a bullet by not giving up 2 shots plus the ball in the first half, for what should have been McF's technical foul alone... as far as I'm concerned, McF's karma was only beginning to catch up to him, when he got the intentional foul.

Finally, Brando decided that the refs had done a great job, because they rapidly broke up a potential altercation between Johnson and Singler, when Johnson had his fist cocked, ready to punch Singler while standing over him-- and then Brando went so far as to say something like "Oh, it was all pretty innocent, and no harm was intended." The guy was ready to try to punch another player laying on the floor, just as the Miami player did to Paulus, and Brando is making excuses and covering up for him... Brando talked about his pre-game interview with Wake's Athletic Director- is that all we have to do to get Brando shamelessly shilling for Duke? 'Cause if it is, WhereintheHell is Joe Alleva, 'cause we finally got some work for him to do. Brando topped off his great night by chortling about all five Duke starters fouling out, and saying that maybe Duke doesn't get all the calls, but that the team that dictates the game gets the calls-- where is that line, when Duke IS getting more of the foul calls?

P.S.- Why is every team in this league, except Maryland, looking to start a fight with somebody on Duke (usually Paulus)? How has the league not noticed this yet, and sent some kind of memo around to the league's coaches? I am getting real tired of people getting chippy and starting fights, for no apparent reason.

grc5
02-17-2008, 10:27 PM
This will be my 38th and final post here. Too much negativity. This is not 1991, 1992, or 2001. This is an over-achieving group of kids who have played a remarkable season thus far, and all most of you can do is start threads about whether we are really that good, or whether we rely on the 3 too much. Some of us have been following Duke ball since before many of you were born, and are delighted with this team's effort, win or lose. Thanks for the effort to teach me about the length of college basketball games, and I was shocked to learn that they don't have to retrieve the ball from the peach baskets anymore. Please just enjoy the magnificent effort these boys are putting forward for your enjoyment, and stop harping on things that, frankly, most of you don't know jack about.

Regards-
Section 8

"Dear Mr. President, There are too many states nowadays. Please eliminate three. P.S. I am not a crackpot."

-Abraham "Grampa" Simpson

DukeDevilDeb
02-17-2008, 10:27 PM
You could see this train wreck early. Nelson 3-9 from the foul line, Singler 3 or 4 turnovers in the first few minutes. And if Henderson can't shoot, why is he playing. Scheyer had clearly his worst game of the season. Only Smith showed me anything tonight. Let's hope they got this out of their system.

Why is it that when Scheyer doesn't score, he's having his worst game? He did everything out there but wipe up the sweat... got some great rebounds... I agree that he wasn't scoring...

But where was Nolan Smith earlier in the game when his aggressive drives to the basket might actually have helped? Where was DeMarcus early in the game? His body was on the free throw line, but his brain was obviously not there... you cannot expect to win in the ACC with the kind of free throw shooting we did in the first half.

Also, am I the only one who thought that Kyle's last three fouls were unutterably indefensible? Especially the last... was he just thinking, "I want to get out of here?"

Didn't understand why K spent most of the game sitting on the bench rather than getting up and directing the team as he did against our last several opponents.

Yuck.:(

DangerDevil
02-17-2008, 10:27 PM
Nice gesture by Coach K and the staff for wearing gold ties in honor of Skip.

First Wake game I've watched this year. Have other Coachs done this or was K the first?

DukeDevilDeb
02-17-2008, 10:28 PM
We knew this was coming... at least I think I did.

The entire Duke squad deserved the loss. Each of them played well enough to lose tonight. It happens.

This regular "Duke team" just didn't show up. Wake's did. Don't blame it on the refs. When we are playing well, we don't foul this much.

Tomorrow is another day...............:).

It was a combination of factors, but to have 5 guys foul out... that can't just be the refs.... it was our bad tonight.

CDu
02-17-2008, 10:30 PM
This will be my 38th and final post here. Too much negativity. This is not 1991, 1992, or 2001. This is an over-achieving group of kids who have played a remarkable season thus far, and all most of you can do is start threads about whether we are really that good, or whether we rely on the 3 too much. Some of us have been following Duke ball since before many of you were born, and are delighted with this team's effort, win or lose. Thanks for the effort to teach me about the length of college basketball games, and I was shocked to learn that they don't have to retrieve the ball from the peach baskets anymore. Please just enjoy the magnificent effort these boys are putting forward for your enjoyment, and stop harping on things that, frankly, most of you don't know jack about.

Regards-
Section 8

Glad you're done posting on the topic. It'll allow me to get in the last word. :)

You're being WAY too sensitive. Yes, this team isn't the 1991/1992/2001 team. But yes, they've played REALLY well to be as successful as they've been so far. And I've thoroughly appreciated their effort. That said, it is entirely possible to appreciate what the team has done and ALSO note that the team didn't play up to its ability tonight. The two are not mutually exclusive.

You act like you have to say nothing but positive things about the team at every turn in order to be a Duke fan. That's simply not true. The team is having a great season. They didn't have a great night tonight, though. I don't expect the team to win every night out. I expect the team to have down nights. A team just simply can't have it every night. Tonight was one of those down nights. But when a night like tonight happens, I'm willing to point it out. I'm sorry that the truth offends you.

devildeac
02-17-2008, 10:30 PM
I told my wife, as the 1st half went along how bad I thought it was, then as the 2nd half unfolded it got worse, IMO. Then Duke lost 5 starters, not sure I've ever seen that. Maybe 3 or 4. In watching the game and replays I'm commenting on the calls, both ways, about how bad they are. (I have coached for 6 years and understand what a foul is...or is NOT) Of couse, wife thinks I'm a nut, but knows better. Again, worst game-calling I've seen in a long time. A long, long time. I'll guess this crew never calls another ACC game. Any way to track that? They shouldn't. I'm not overly concerned that Duke lost, just in the process in which they did.
I'm not saying Duke should've won, but that was awful.

Apparently, DT, you missed the Duke-md game a few years ago when we finished the OT with JJ, Dock(?) and 3 walk-ons and lost 92-99 with about 35 fouls on us and about 15-20 on md. Oh, you also missed the f$u game at T'hassee about 2 years ago after the stripes got suspended for the improper T on f$su's Johnson and the return game at f$u resulted in about 5 of our guys DQ'ed and f$u shooting about 39 FT to our 19. Ask Stray about that one. He sat at courtside and was aghast at the calls at one end compared to the other end and thought there was clearly an agenda from the acc office on that one. But, Bob Harris put it perfectly on the radio tonight when he totalled up the fouls and said "and Duke gets all the calls." Of course, 15/27 from the line, -5 or -6 on the boards, 8/28 from 3 and 21 TO's did not help us either.

Highlander
02-17-2008, 10:31 PM
Had to watch the game on a delay, so I started already knowing we lost. I've read a lot of the comments here about the officiating and the shooting in the last 10 minutes, so I thought it was odd that with 11:15 to go in the game:

Duke has shot more Free Throws than Wake. Wake has hit one more.
Duke shot 55% from the floor in the first half.
Duke shot 46% from the floor in the first 9:45 of the second.
Duke has 1 person with 4 fouls (Thomas) and a couple with 3. Pretty typical for this point in the game IMO.
Duke has 15 turnovers, which is about 4-5 above their average for this point in the game.


Other than the 15 or so turnovers, at this point this is a typical Duke game.

Then the bottom drops out.

We finished the game at 39%, which is amazing considering our %ages to this point in the game. It's also amazing that Duke would have 5 guys foul out when at this point only one is in serious foul trouble (and 2 others in moderate trouble).

I'll go watch the last 11 minutes now, with a bottle of pepto handy. This is going to be ugly...

DukeDevilDeb
02-17-2008, 10:32 PM
sorry, but you are flat wrong. Scheyer and Paulus are defensive liabilities. Teague ran circles around Paulus today. Scheyer is barely any better. yet at least Paulus is the PG and can nail open 3-point shots. Scheyer is streaky from the outside... at best.

Sorry, but to say Scheyer stopped Wayne Ellington is down right laughable. That's like when Michael Jordan had a bad game... and saying the guy who defended him shut him down. Of course Wayne Ellington isn't that good, but you get the point. Plus, Scheyer did not guard Ellington alone. Henderson did the bulk.

...posting on Inside Carolina instead of here? Bob is right... most of what you say isn't based on fact!

KyDevilinIL
02-17-2008, 10:36 PM
Of all the things to pontificate about tonight, Tim Brando's performance hardly seems like a priority.

Lulu
02-17-2008, 10:37 PM
sorry if this has already been asked, but where does this put us in the league standings if carolina wins out, and we only lose again to carolina? Is there a tie-breaker rule regarding md being better than wake (at the moment)? Or is it just a tie? or is there any other tie-breaking factor?

DukeDevilDeb
02-17-2008, 10:37 PM
This may be buried somewhere in the thread... if so, forgive me. But why did Zoubek get T'ed up? It appeared to me that the Wake player said something unacceptable, and Brian was pointing it out to the official... then the double technical was called.

Any explanation?

And, by the way, I agree that the call when Scheyer tried to take it and was forced over mid-court was correct. He was the last to touch it on oen side and the first one the other... but don't you wish someone broadcasting the game could show the replay, point it out? I am so tired of looking at Josh Howard and others like him (nothing against him at all) while the game is going on.

I'm going to sleep too!

dukestheheat
02-17-2008, 10:38 PM
It was a combination of factors, but to have 5 guys foul out... that can't just be the refs.... it was our bad tonight.

Right from the get go, we weren't there to play tonight and I could sense it. But, we will rebound from this and we have all the markings of a National Championship team this year (but I do agree that something BAD is going on with Henderson's injury situation). I am certain we'll be back for Miami and Duke going forward is going to use this game to help with focus and concentration, and effort.

The bigger question for me is this: How will K work to motivate Duke after this one: What does he do to get Duke re-focused and looking forward, not backward? Remember, we got Superman on the sidelines in K and he's the master at getting our guys re-vamped and ready to kill again.

dth.

feldspar
02-17-2008, 10:39 PM
sorry if this has already been asked, but where does this put us in the league standings if carolina wins out, and we only lose again to carolina? Is there a tie-breaker rule regarding md being better than wake (at the moment)? Or is it just a tie? or is there any other tie-breaking factor?

Tiebreaker would be against the 3rd place team, who would probably be Maryland, giving us the advantage.

CDu
02-17-2008, 10:41 PM
This may be buried somewhere in the thread... if so, forgive me. But why did Zoubek get T'ed up? It appeared to me that the Wake player said something unacceptable, and Brian was pointing it out to the official... then the double technical was called.

Any explanation?

Either it was something Zoubek said, or the official felt that Zoubek was showing him up begging for the call, or (most likely) the official just blew the call thinking more was going on than was really going on. It looked to me like McFarland taunted Zoubek (calling shenanigans on DBR's listing McFarland as one of the league's likable players, by the way), Zoubek turned to ask where the call was, and the official then T'ed them both up. But I'm guessing that the ref just missed the action and wanted to try to make a statement.

KyDevilinIL
02-17-2008, 10:42 PM
The bigger question for me is this: How will K work to motivate Duke after this one: What does he do to get Duke re-focused and looking forward, not backward? Remember, we got Superman on the sidelines in K and he's the master at getting our guys re-vamped and ready to kill again.


I kind of sense K won't need to say or do too much. This bunch is awfully tough, and you've gotta think they understand what went wrong. They're probably chomping at the bit to go again right now.

houstondukie
02-17-2008, 10:42 PM
First Wake game I've watched this year. Have other Coachs done this or was K the first?

Coach K, to my knowledge, is the first this year to wear the gold ties to honor Skip. I base this on what I am reading over in the Wake Forest message boards. In fact, the Wake fans are pretty positive towards K tonight. Not just for the ties, but also saying he was very respectful and classy during the game and in post-game interviews.

CDu
02-17-2008, 10:43 PM
Tiebreaker would be against the 3rd place team, who would probably be Maryland, giving us the advantage.

How does the tiebreaker work if Clemson winds up third? We're 1-0 against Clemson, Carolina is 2-0. Would they get the tiebreaker due to more wins? That would be irritating.

wisteria
02-17-2008, 10:45 PM
a very long post-game thread, so I didn't read the whole thing.

I want to say that, unlike suggested by some posters, our players played hard and this loss wasn't due to a lack of effort. We came back from 9-points down, and came back from 5-point down again to claim 5-piont lead. The two teams exchanged leads numerous times, and till the last 2 minutes, we were still in the ball game down about 6 points. I didn't see them giving up.

But Wake played great game. And having all your starters fouled out...

It's "that" night, when you just have a combination of things gone wrong.

We will regroup and rebound. But first of all, I want the whole team, especially Demarcus Nelson to shoot 1000 free throws.

feldspar
02-17-2008, 10:45 PM
How does the tiebreaker work if Clemson winds up third? We're 1-0 against Clemson, Carolina is 2-0. Would they get the tiebreaker due to more wins? That would be irritating.

I'm pretty sure it just goes down the line of the rest of the teams in the conference.

So, if the ACCT were tomorrow, the tie breaker would go all the way down to Maryland, and we'd win the tiebreaker.

DangerDevil
02-17-2008, 10:48 PM
I'm pretty sure it just goes down the line of the rest of the teams in the conference.

So, if the ACCT were tomorrow, the tie breaker would go all the way down to Maryland, and we'd win the tiebreaker.

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/020402aad.html


2002 ACC Tournament Page

Seeding for the 2002 ACC Tournament will be determined by the regular season conference standings. In case of a tie, the following formula will be used:

Tie Breaking Formula
(1) When two teams are tied in the standings, regular season head-to-head results are used as the tie-breaker.
(2) If the two tied teams split their regular season games, the tie is broken by comparing each team's records against the team occupying the highest position in the standings, and then continuing down until one team gains an advantage.

grc5
02-17-2008, 10:49 PM
After this game, it's likely that every moron in ACC (especially those in Chapel Hell) will think that you can beat Duke by simply pushing the pace and running past them.
I think that if anyone tries this nonsense again, though, our defense will return its usual form and force run-and-gun teams into turnovers (and easy points!).

rthomas
02-17-2008, 10:56 PM
If there is a team I'd rather lose to (this time of year), it's Wake. I really liked Skip Prosser; I've admired Wake's teams over the years. I've liked beating them (including WVU). This year, they have been through it. I hope they do well.

And, I hope this loss helps focus our team for the rest of the year. Go Duke!

Carter431
02-17-2008, 10:57 PM
Tough loss but better now than in March. I felt like we were out of sync all night. Every pass looked unexpected and out of rhythm.

The positive in a game full of negatives was Nolan Smith. I didn't feel that GP had great game so it was great to see Nolan step up. I'd like to see GP and Nolan together on the court more. They compliment each other very well offensively with Nolan being the slashing point guard and GP the shooter from behind the arch.

Next play. Lets get ready for Miami. They will be ready for us after getting a big road win at GT today.

Duvall
02-17-2008, 10:58 PM
How does the tiebreaker work if Clemson winds up third? We're 1-0 against Clemson, Carolina is 2-0. Would they get the tiebreaker due to more wins? That would be irritating.

No - by rule, 1-0 is treated the same as 2-0. The tiebreaker is based on winning percentage, not total wins.

BacchusBlue
02-17-2008, 11:01 PM
Same with me. I'd rather not overreact no matter what: they played great, we didn't, and the officiating was pretty suspect. But it happens, and I'd rather it happen here than anywhere else.
But does anyone know how Gaudio coached the biggest win of his life without seeming to raise his voice, elevate his heartrate and without breaking a sweat? I was really impressed and somewhat frightened at the same time. I don't think I've ever been that calm WATCHING a game!

billy
02-17-2008, 11:04 PM
Finally, Brando decided that the refs had done a great job, because they rapidly broke up a potential altercation between Johnson and Singler, when Johnson had his fist cocked, ready to punch Singler while standing over him-- and then Brando went so far as to say something like "Oh, it was all pretty innocent, and no harm was intended."

I believe it was Teague who got tangled up w/Singler and had his fist clenched.

As to the double technical, it seemed more like an effort on the refs part to stem some of the extracurricular play going on in the league this season.

Acymetric
02-17-2008, 11:07 PM
I believe it was Teague who got tangled up w/Singler and had his fist clenched.

As to the double technical, it seemed more like an effort on the refs part to stem some of the extracurricular play going on in the league this season.

I can think of about a million other instances that would have been better for such a statement.

Mudge
02-17-2008, 11:11 PM
After this game, it's likely that every moron in ACC (especially those in Chapel Hell) will think that you can beat Duke by simply pushing the pace and running past them.
I think that if anyone tries this nonsense again, though, our defense will return its usual form and force run-and-gun teams into turnovers (and easy points!).

Unfortunately, teams with a fast point guard who can drive past Duke's guards and get good shots will think that this is the key to beating Duke-- I think we may have seen a vision of T. Lawson playing against Duke next time.

When are announcers going to stop saying that Nelson can guard really quick guards? He couldn't do it last year against Marquette, VPI, and VCU, and he fouled out of this game trying to do it against Wake.

The other Big Lie is that Nelson is 6'4" and can go inside and score over bigger people, up to 6'9"-- he is actually more like 6'2' (according to sources inside the team), and he can't often score over frontcourt players, as tonight showed time and again-- he regularly gets blocked by players between 6'5" and 6'9", because, while he is a good athete, he is not a transcendant athlete (like a Jordan, Barkley, Bryant, James, etc.) who can beat bigger, good athletes... and unfortunately, Nelson STILL has not figured this out, which is why, 4 years into his college career, he continues to bull his way inside and then force up bad shots. But at least he finally did try to make a fast break outlet pass tonight off a defensive rebound in his own half-- unfortunately the pass was poorly thrown and resulted in a turnover, so maybe that's why he chooses to dribble the ball up himself every other time, after collecting a defensive rebound.

buzz
02-17-2008, 11:12 PM
*One last thought - Paulus has improved greatly but still needs a mid-range jumper. He is either a 3 or a kick out... rarely takes the 5-10 footer most teams give him.

Paulus has a pretty nice mid-range shot, but he doesn't take it as often as I'd like to see. We did see him hit a sweet one tonight, and that was a bright spot. This could be really valuable when other shots aren't falling (along with Henderson's mid-range game).

The thing I'm most concerned about is that he's becoming predictable when he drives to the hoop. Teams expect him to kick it out and are starting to play the pass first. Also, once in awhile he gets caught in no-man's-land and attempts the kick-out after committing himself too far. Though he's not that quick on the drive, he's a pretty decent finisher when there's a little room to work. I think the trick is to make the right choice at the right time between drives, mid-range shots, and kick-outs to keep the other teams honest.

Lulu
02-17-2008, 11:19 PM
If there is a team I'd rather lose to (this time of year), it's Wake. I really liked Skip Prosser; I've admired Wake's teams over the years. I've liked beating them (including WVU). This year, they have been through it. I hope they do well.

And, I hope this loss helps focus our team for the rest of the year. Go Duke!

I have to second that. I would have hated losing to unc, md, vt, fsu, or even clemson. So I guess it's the least of evils.

One further comment. I have NEVER felt the need to look up an officiating crew before, but during tonight's game I felt the need to see who was officiating this game and who officiated the Miami game:
Wake crew: Roger Ayers, Bernard Clinton, Sean Hull
Miami crew: Roger Ayers, Bernard Clinton, Jerry Heater
That made a pretty convincing argument to myself regarding officiating crew MOs. There was just something remarkably similar... and lo and behold... I am NOT blaming officials for the loss though.

Mudge
02-17-2008, 11:19 PM
Of all the things to pontificate about tonight, Tim Brando's performance hardly seems like a priority.

I had it as a separate thread, but the powers that be decided, in their infinite wisdom, that it needed to be closed out and folded in here... it was just one of many things that grated on me about tonight's game, but it was hardly the only one... I have posted elsewhere about Nelson.

Kilby
02-17-2008, 11:20 PM
Paulus can't get the mid range shot off if he is defended unless its a floater.

dukie8
02-17-2008, 11:24 PM
Though I didn't see it, I'm pretty sure the 1972 USA vs. Russia game was worse.

We lost 5 guys to fouls against Maryland back in '05 and 4 guys to fouls vs. WFU in '05 as well. We also lost ~4 guys to fouls vs. UConn in '04. Don't think they were all starters but we've suffered that kind of attrition before.

Not a great called game but it had no bearing on the outcome. The team that deserved to win won tonight. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

were the 5 guys to maryland all starters? also, how many of them were at the very end when we were fouling right away? i can't recall a game where ALL of the starters fouled out and all but i think paulus fouled out before the heavy fouling started.

-jk
02-17-2008, 11:31 PM
That [back court] call was correct. Scheyer was the last one to touch it in the front court, and he knocked it into the backcourt when trying to control it. No Deacon touched it in between.

By rule, to have back court you first need team control, and there is no team control from the time the ball is shot until someone secures the rebound.

Obviously, the refs must have decided Duke had secured the rebound, even if ever so briefly, before the ball was subsequently knocked loose (which does not end team control).

-jk

mehmattski
02-17-2008, 11:37 PM
Paulus can't get the mid range shot off if he is defended unless its a floater.

I wasn't sure about this statement, so I decided to check out the shot charts from the ACC games:

Greg Paulus, Mid-Range game

@ WF: 1 for 4
MD: 1 for 4
BC: 0 for 1
@UNC: 0 for 1
Miami: 0 for 2
NCSU: 0 for 3
@MD: 1 for 1
@VT: none
Clemson: 1 for 1
@FSU: 0 for 2
UVA: 0 for 1

Overall in ACC Play: 4 for 16 (25%, compared to 44% beyond the arc and 48% on all 2 point shots).

Highlander
02-17-2008, 11:43 PM
OK, finished the last 11 minutes of the game on delay. Here's my take on the officiating, which wasn't great but not altogether atrocious either. It looked to me like the officials were allowing players to challenge with the lower body, but anything with the arms was called a foul. That's fine. I can live with it if it's consistent. After all, that explains Gerald and Demarcus's out of bounds calls, and how Scheyer picked up a foul for grazing the arm of a shooter in the lane.

Now fast forward to the last 2 minutes...

Duke's in a hole because they're down around 7 and have to play aggressive defense to force turnovers or foul. Problem is, nobody has any fouls to give.

Singler's 5th was a good call; the guy he collided with was pretty stationary. Demarcus's 5th was also good. He slipped, the Wake guy went right at him, and he reached.
Greg's 5th foul was intentional to stop the clock.
Lance's 5th for bumping the Wake player out of bounds I thought was BS, especially since the refs let the earlier two plays against Gerald and Demarcus slide.
Sure looked like Nolan got taken down on his 3 attempt, although it was not a good angle from TV to say for sure.


As for other bad calls, there was certainly intentional foul and the Technicals that were poor, even though I'd argue both of them favored us since McFarlane fouled out. There was another play (same series as the Gerald force out) where Lance goes to set a screen and the Wake guy sees him coming and lowers his shoulder into Lance, who goes sprawling into the fetal position. That, as a no call, floored me.

However, even if these 4-5 calls were all made correctly, we still would have lost. No way did the officials cost us this game IMO. We could not contain Wake's guards, had problems keeping their big men off the glass, turned the ball over WAAAY too much, went about 5 minutes without a bucket, and couldn't hit over half our free throws. That, ladies and gentlemen, is a lot to overcome for any team, and tonight we couldn't do it.

Anyway, I'm off to bed. Not a bad loss, but it certainly shows that this team isn't invincible, and that we can be done in when our shooters go cold. But we'll watch the film, learn from it, and move on. Next Game.

g4orce
02-17-2008, 11:58 PM
Why is every team in this league, except Maryland, looking to start a fight with somebody on Duke (usually Paulus)?

I wondered for a while if my blue colored glasses were distorting my viewing of recent Duke games concerning the physicality of play, but the last few games that I watched non-Duke were just as bad. Has anyone else noticed how much they are letting players get away with, but then whistle ticky-tack fouls? It almost looks like NBA or Big East... anything goes.

I know this is just my opinion, but it does seem like the games where we have the most trouble are the ones where we are in a heavy-weight slugfest. Our guys aren't bruisers, but I'm glad that this team has a certain cockiness and will get back in their face. I call thsi team: Timex. We take a licking and keep on ticking. Only tonight, I think our battery went dead b/c we just seemed really out of it. I made the comment to my wife that it seemed like we were just tired of getting beat up, and the physical play of late was getting to us.

Regarding Brando, etc... I know that I can mute the audio, but why should I have to? I mean, they are COMMENTATORS, not the opposing team's voice-box. These guys are supposed to be neutral, not trying to flame-up the anti-Duke crowd. They are the ones who spread all this "Duke gets the calls" crap. Even tonight, after all our starters fouled out (which I've never ever seen happen before to anyone) and the rest of the team has a number of fouls, Brando makes a flipant comment along the lines of "I guess Duke didn't get all the calls tonight." Simply uncalled for. Just make interesting comments about the game, and if I want to hear anti-Duke venom, I will find the radio station for the other team's coverage.

One last comment: In listening to Bob harris at some poing near the end of the game, he made a comment along the lines that Nelson has a streak of 16 games where he has missed at least 4 FT in a row. I found that interesting, considering that he had such a great FT % in HS. I wonder how many of those were the front-end of 1&1s?

crimsonandblue
02-18-2008, 12:05 AM
Now fast forward to the last 2 minutes...

Duke's in a hole because they're down around 7 and have to play aggressive defense to force turnovers or foul. Problem is, nobody has any fouls to give.

Singler's 5th was a good call; the guy he collided with was pretty stationary. Demarcus's 5th was also good. He slipped, the Wake guy went right at him, and he reached.
Greg's 5th foul was intentional to stop the clock.
Lance's 5th for bumping the Wake player out of bounds I thought was BS, especially since the refs let the earlier two plays against Gerald and Demarcus slide.
Sure looked like Nolan got taken down on his 3 attempt, although it was not a good angle from TV to say for sure.


As for other bad calls, there was certainly intentional foul and the Technicals that were poor, even though I'd argue both of them favored us since McFarlane fouled out. There was another play (same series as the Gerald force out) where Lance goes to set a screen and the Wake guy sees him coming and lowers his shoulder into Lance, who goes sprawling into the fetal position. That, as a no call, floored me.


As someone pulling for Wake, my take was that the officials were awful.

The force outs you mention were fouls. They have to be called.

The intentional foul can't be called that. It just can't.

The and one late by, I think, Teague against Paulus was bad.

The Scheyer play along the sideline in front of the Wake bench where he cut the guy off, spilled himself and the Wake guy and Scheyer as he fell, caught the ball and keyed the break was physically impressive, but a block by Scheyer who undercut the guy.

The three-point knock down on Nolan Smith was a good non-call, if you mean the one in the last minute and a half (or even less). Smith shot the ball and kind of layed down to his right looking for the call. Don't blame him for trying, but it was a good no call.

The double tech early was silly. Looked like Zoubek whined about what looked like a good call and the Wake guy, McFarlane, gave him the ol' a-hole, "Oh, you know you hacked me" line. Didn't look all that serious to deserve a tech either way, but you either need to tee Zoubek up for the initial whine, or just tee the Wake dude up. There was no way to meld those things together and the ref had already let the Zoubek whining go.

The fifth on Singler looked dicey from that last angle they showed. Looked like Johnson leaned in. But Singler may have gotten away with an earlier fourth that Brando commented on (mentioned that the crowd was whining).

Just my take on those calls you mentioned or the ones I remembered.

elvis14
02-18-2008, 12:10 AM
I always hate losing, period. I hope the team responds the way they responded to the Pitt loss....use it as fuel for the fire and get back after it even harder. I do have some concerns that may not be specific to this loss but more about things I have been seeing lately:
Actually let me first state that as easy as it is to be negative after a loss I'll start with the positive. Nolan Smith played great tonight. That was nice to see since he's had some pretty bad games of late.
Gerald's injury is affecting him greatly and having him be ineffective erodes some of the great balance we have had from our team this year. We are so good because we have so many guys to stop. If G is hurt and isn't hard to stop that really makes a difference.
Taylor King has left the building...and we could use him back. Another threat for Duke that has been missing of late is TK. I'd like to see this kid get back on track to increase that great scoring balance we have leaned on this year.
I hope that Demarc's practice of taking on bigger players in the paint when he shouldn't can be minimized, unlike tonight where he looked like the DN from last season.
Singler has to respect those 5 fouls and try harder not to give them away cheaply. This is also the second game in a row where he's had some bad turnovers. He's a great player but he could improve on these areas (all players can improve on something!).
A serious question - why in the name of God would anyone care about what Tim Brando had to say? Please, please stop whining, or at least find something worth whining about.

It's that we love to watch Duke basketball and having the announcers be anti-Duke takes away some of that enjoyment. That's why and it's a valid complaint. Does it matter as much as winning? Nope but last I checked this was entertainment.


blah blah blah a bunch of anti-Scheyer crap I deleted

WTF??? Jon has good and bad games just like everyone else but this kid is a large part of why we only have 2 losses this season.


Wake will be scary good in 08-09

I think you mispelled "Duke" it starts with a "D" not a "W".


One more thing. Wake played great tonight but their run in the second half was fueled by the referees calling the game in their favor. I know it's the gallant thing to do to say that we lost not because of the refs but because Wake played great and we didn't bring our 'A' game. Well I'm not feeling gallant! All five of our starters fouled out, all five! I'm not saying we win this game with better officiating but I will say that it really sucks that we didn't get better officiating so we could have seen who should have won the game. Maybe it would have still been Wake...who the hell knows? I sure don't!

I'm not getting this loss out of perspective. I thought the Pitt loss was a bad loss but our kids responded well. I don't feel that this is a 'bad' loss. I feel like we are as good as anybody in the nation and mostly I can't wait to see our next game. It's so much fun seeing who's going to step up next.

gep
02-18-2008, 12:16 AM
Didn't understand why K spent most of the game sitting on the bench rather than getting up and directing the team as he did against our last several opponents.

I also noticed this during the game, and posted on the chat room. Coach K seemed pretty passive, as far as what was shown on TV. It's almost as if he wanted to let the team figure this one out themselves... and then use this as a "teaching moment".

HK Dukie
02-18-2008, 01:04 AM
Anyone know why it took about 6 minutes before Scheyer got in the game? It looked like he was the 8th man or so today. Any chance he was hurt?

OZ
02-18-2008, 01:14 AM
were the 5 guys to maryland all starters? also, how many of them were at the very end when we were fouling right away? i can't recall a game where ALL of the starters fouled out and all but i think paulus fouled out before the heavy fouling started.


According to GoDuke.com, this was the first time in Duke history that all five STARTERS fouled out!

buzz
02-18-2008, 01:53 AM
I wasn't sure about this statement, so I decided to check out the shot charts from the ACC games:

Greg Paulus, Mid-Range game

@ WF: 1 for 4
MD: 1 for 4
BC: 0 for 1
@UNC: 0 for 1
Miami: 0 for 2
NCSU: 0 for 3
@MD: 1 for 1
@VT: none
Clemson: 1 for 1
@FSU: 0 for 2
UVA: 0 for 1

Overall in ACC Play: 4 for 16 (25%, compared to 44% beyond the arc and 48% on all 2 point shots).

I came up with some different numbers, using the shot charts found here:

http://www.ncaasports.com/basketball/mens/scoreboard/ACC/20080217

@ WF: 1 for 4
MD: 1 for 3*
BC: 0 for 1
@UNC: 0 for 1
Miami: 0 for 1*
NCSU: 1 for 2*
@MD: 1 for 1
@VT: none
Clemson: 1 for 1
@FSU: 0 for 1*
UVA: 0 for 0*

*differs from the quoted post

Take it with a grain of salt, since the charts and shot data there are a bit inconsistent. Based on these numbers, Greg has hit 5 of 15 (33%). OK, not lighting the world on fire, but I still think he's got some potential to make an impact. I would agree that he's not going to be very effective with a guy in his face. The original poster (gofurman on page 6) was making the point that sometimes teams give him an open shot from mid-range and that he wished Greg could take advantage of that. He's not quite there yet, but I think he could be with a little work on that part of his game.

Uncle Drew
02-18-2008, 04:39 AM
I picked a wonderful away game to waste gas and ticket money on. But as said in another post I had a really bad feeling about this game all day. I have been to several Wake Forrest vs. Duke games over the years and I'm used to Wake playing them hard. And not to sound like a UNC fan but it seems like every year I go they hire three refs from the MMA to call the game. Yes there were obvious fouls for both teams. But anyone who says Duke gets all the calls can view video of this game and shut their yap. I don't know how things looked on TV. But from the stands it looked like Duke had glue on the bottom of their feet, was trying to make threes with one eye closed and a hand in their face and Wake made shots they don't normally make. The use of video, sound effects and obnoxious yellow and black tie dyes that wouldn't be allowed in a Grateful Dead show reminded me of UNLV in the early 90's. But I did have fun when the fans were screaming Wake........Forrest over and over, inserting Gump......Forrest......Gump. But an ACC game is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get.


One of the most irritating thing about the Wake crowd (and perhaps this is every home crowd now when Duke comes to play, I wouldn't know someone else would have to comment) but every whistle that went against Wake they booed. For Christ's sake Duke fouled out their entire starting five, yet the idiots in the stands actually thought they were getting screwed over by the refs! From where I was sitting there were obvious calls, they booed. There were times when a Wake player mugged a Duke guy, they cheered seeing no foul. And they even broke into a chant of "refs suck" after the Singler incident when he was trying to stand with a guard on his back. Apparently they thought Singler somehow desreved a foul for giving their guard a piggy back ride. I can watch any basketball game pro or college whether I have a favorite or not and be objective about the calls. Either Wake Forrest fans are the most ignorant ACC fans about what is a foul and whats not. Or these people actually feel at home they should get the benefit of the doubt on all whistles. A foul, travel and goaltend is a foul, travel and goaltend regardless of where you are playing.

I am not for a minute suggeting Duke deserved to win this game. They played in a funk from start to finish. The drive home through a drizzly, nasty cold rain semed very appropriate but did very little to wash away the bad taste in my mouth. :mad:

NYC Duke Fan
02-18-2008, 05:48 AM
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING !!

Did we learn that we cannot win if we don't make 3 pointers ? That is a surprise

Did we learn that we cannot win if we don't make Free throws ? Another surprise

Actually we did learn something from the game...Duke is not the second best team in the country. Thankfully UAB's last second shot didn't count otherwise Duke would have been ranked number 1 as the rankings would have come in before the end of the Duke-WF game..

Matches
02-18-2008, 06:40 AM
Tough loss, but not entirely unexpected. We've been flirting with disaster since about the NCState game, and eventually it was going to catch up to us. Kudos to Wake on an outstanding performance.

Next play.

RelativeWays
02-18-2008, 06:55 AM
The FT problem is much bigger than the 3pt problem. Every team that relies on the three is going to have good nights and bad nights, the fact that we could counter it with hitting FTs but didn't is a problem. It cost us against Pitt and while WF may have still won, it could have gone the other way had we made the shots at the stripe. We HAVE to make those if we want to go deep in the tournament.

gw67
02-18-2008, 07:01 AM
I can’t add much to ten pages of posts (I read the first page). Wake matches up well with the Devils and they had much more energy. The game reminded me of an NBA game. There was very little team play and passing, and the pushing and shoving under the basket by both teams was the worst I’ve seen this year. When one of your best one-on-one players is a complete non-factor, another is picking up fouls and the Wake perimeter players can keep up with the rest, you are in trouble, particularly when you can’t make three point shots.

Agree with DBR writeup that two technicals and foul on drive by Henderson didn’t make sense. It seemed to me that refs played makeup after the foul by McFarland but I’m not unbiased.

What was DBR’s point when they stated that Nelson threw the ball back hard to refs? Was he warned?

This game shows once again that even Duke needs to bring at least their A- game against the better ACC teams.

gw67

wisteria
02-18-2008, 07:02 AM
exactly. the horrible FT shooting performance has been around for a while. I just knew that sooner or later it's going to cost us dearly. I don't know if it's a mental thing or a technical issue. But, please, let's fix it !!

korshmar
02-18-2008, 07:44 AM
Is it just me or does anyone else out there wonder what in the world Coach K is doing with Taylor King? Remember, the guy who put up 27 points on phenomenal three point shooting in limited playing time in a game early in the season? With a need for offensive production in the second half against Wake, Taylor sat while Scheyer went 0-8 and Golden Boy Singler threw the ball all over the place. With Nolan Smith's fine penetration, I could just visualize King hitting 5 three's in about 5 minutes to turn this game around.

I'm sure someone will tell me King is a defensive liability, but last night nobody else was doing so hot on defense, and we needed offense. I'm sure someone will tell me King's shot has not been there recently. How would you know? He comes in, cold off the bench, misses one shot and is gone immediately. King must be demoralized- he's barely in the game, he's out. He does anything wrong, he's pulled, whereas Singler can make the most ridiculous turnovers, throwing passes practically to the stands, and he's good for 37 minutes.

So I'm curious: was anybody else thinking, "Put King in," last night against Wake? Does anyone else think King has been getting pulled way too quickly and not given a chance?

beltwayBD
02-18-2008, 07:49 AM
Wow. We hardly did anything right last night. And all five starters out! Unbelievable.

Two things were not our fault.

1) Gerald Henderson's wrist.

2) Wake plays extremely well at home.

Everything else was our fault: terrible shooting, terrible passing, terrible ball handling. I thought our hussle was up to par, but nothing came of it.

Too bad we only play them once this year, I would love a healthy rematch. Speaking of healthy, we gotta bench Henderson until his wrist is better. It's not doing us any favors. Start Nolan Smith until Henderson is back to 90-95%. He's playing at maybe 40% now.

arnie
02-18-2008, 07:49 AM
I picked a wonderful away game to waste gas and ticket money on. But as said in another post I had a really bad feeling about this game all day. I have been to several Wake Forrest vs. Duke games over the years and I'm used to Wake playing them hard. And not to sound like a UNC fan but it seems like every year I go they hire three refs from the MMA to call the game. Yes there were obvious fouls for both teams. But anyone who says Duke gets all the calls can view video of this game and shut their yap. I don't know how things looked on TV. But from the stands it looked like Duke had glue on the bottom of their feet, was trying to make threes with one eye closed and a hand in their face and Wake made shots they don't normally make. The use of video, sound effects and obnoxious yellow and black tie dyes that wouldn't be allowed in a Grateful Dead show reminded me of UNLV in the early 90's. But I did have fun when the fans were screaming Wake........Forrest over and over, inserting Gump......Forrest......Gump. But an ACC game is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get.


One of the most irritating thing about the Wake crowd (and perhaps this is every home crowd now when Duke comes to play, I wouldn't know someone else would have to comment) but every whistle that went against Wake they booed. For Christ's sake Duke fouled out their entire starting five, yet the idiots in the stands actually thought they were getting screwed over by the refs! From where I was sitting there were obvious calls, they booed. There were times when a Wake player mugged a Duke guy, they cheered seeing no foul. And they even broke into a chant of "refs suck" after the Singler incident when he was trying to stand with a guard on his back. Apparently they thought Singler somehow desreved a foul for giving their guard a piggy back ride. I can watch any basketball game pro or college whether I have a favorite or not and be objective about the calls. Either Wake Forrest fans are the most ignorant ACC fans about what is a foul and whats not. Or these people actually feel at home they should get the benefit of the doubt on all whistles. A foul, travel and goaltend is a foul, travel and goaltend regardless of where you are playing.

I am not for a minute suggeting Duke deserved to win this game. They played in a funk from start to finish. The drive home through a drizzly, nasty cold rain semed very appropriate but did very little to wash away the bad taste in my mouth. :mad:

Try going to a game against State in RBC (which I will be doing on March 1). The fans start booing the refs when they walk on the court and several older fans are taken off in stretchers during the game screaming at K. I find their fan base to be the most ignorant of the rules in the conference (and when Md is in the league, thats guite an indictment of the red and white.)

beltwayBD
02-18-2008, 07:52 AM
So I'm curious: was anybody else thinking, "Put King in," last night against Wake? Does anyone else think King has been getting pulled way too quickly and not given a chance?

I was! When you've tried everything else, how on earth could King be a liability? We needed someone to spark the offense, and he had no fouls! I realize he hasn't been as much of a performer against ACC opponents, but I think he's earned more minutes.

Matches
02-18-2008, 07:59 AM
So I'm curious: was anybody else thinking, "Put King in," last night against Wake? Does anyone else think King has been getting pulled way too quickly and not given a chance?

I was hoping he'd get in near the end when we clearly needed to play catch-up, and of course he did get in when everyone fouled out. I think his minutes are going to be limited for the rest of the season, though, simply because his game is, at this moment, one-dimensional.

I don't think he's demoralized at all, though. Whenever they show him on the bench he seems to have a great attitude, cheering on his teammates and appearing genuinely happy for their success. That speaks well of him - he has a bright future on this team.

camion
02-18-2008, 07:59 AM
The main problem I saw last night was that Wake was more ready to play and had more energy than we did. Everything else flowed, or didn't flow, because of that.

This is still a very young team that had a bad game and got a serious reality check. The players will grow up a bit because of it so I don't consider the loss to be a major catastrophe beyond a single blemish on the season record.

oldnavy
02-18-2008, 08:02 AM
It is a little mysterious as to why King is not getting minutes. It must be practice related, because I watch him in the few minutes he gets each game and he gives as much effort, taking charges, deflecting passes, and overall hustle as anybody.

As to last nights game, we need to look no further down the sat sheet to the 22 turnovers. Forget the refs and the suspect calls, all 22 turnovers were our fault and we will lose most everygame in the ACC that we turn it over 22 times IMO!

DukeDevil
02-18-2008, 08:04 AM
I didn't get to see most of the game, just the last 15 minutes of the second half. (well that's a lie, I stopped watching with 30 seconds left because it was just too painful) but it really seemed like we just never came to play. There were multiple shots, and I don't even mean open threes, but layups and the like where we just totally missed. You can't miss that kind of stuff and expect to stay in the game. Threes can stop falling, but then when you go inside and successfully cut to an open rim, you have to hit that. The reffing was aweful, as well, but they didn't make us miss those gimme shots. The two things I noticed in the short span I saw was 1) bump outs on the baseline. Didn't the playcaller address this? If you have the ball and step out of bounds, it's either out or a foul if you were bumped out. It seemed really straightforward to me, and I find it hard to believe that all of those were our players stepping out without a bump on the baseline. I'll believe one or two could be a bad camera angle on our part, but seriously? 2) the over and back call...the ball was tipped back by wake...can someone explain this to me? I confess I don't know the rules perfectly but I didn't think that was an over and back. 3) (OK I lied about two, sue me) the non call on the wake player standing over Singler with a closed fist like that? After the tech on zoubs...seriously? and 4) There was a walk on scheyer, and then on the next play, a wake player ( can't remember who) did the exact same thing, except it he completely lifted his pivot foot and put it down again (ie: a step) and no travel was called. Seriously? Yeesh.

Like everyone's been saying...that didn't lose the game for us, but it certainly doesn't help you come back when every starter has 4 fouls and aren't allowed to play D while the opposing team can play as they like.

I feel like this is my fault. There have only been 2 games this season where I wasn't sitting in my lucky chair/wearing lucky shorts/shirt/socks in my lucky spot hunched over in the lucky position. Pitt and Wake. I was going skiing this weekend and I figured we'd be safe this weekend against wake, plus I wanted a game to prove that the superstition was bunk so I could justify watching the next UNC game at a Duke bar with other people. You think they'd let me bring my own chair to the bar? The sad part is I'm not really kidding about that...I really would like to bring the lucky chair to the bar.

Surfsideron
02-18-2008, 08:09 AM
It hurt to watch our guys get beat last night but the operative phrase there is "get beat" which they were soundly by a Wake team that was truly fired up. (I thought Dino's pregame speech was a classic).

We were outplayed in almost every phase of the game. Maybe in every phase! It happens.

Hopefully our guys will learn from it and go down to Miami and win a game against another under-valued opponent. Make no mistake, every game from here on will be a dogfight.

We had a bad game and 75% of the posts on here make it sound like our team has suddenly had a major meltdown. Not so.

We will be a #1 seed!!!

DrChainsaw
02-18-2008, 08:14 AM
were the 5 guys to maryland all starters? also, how many of them were at the very end when we were fouling right away? i can't recall a game where ALL of the starters fouled out and all but i think paulus fouled out before the heavy fouling started.

So in seeing the 5 starters fouling out, I am trying to remember a game: The team we played had most of their starters benched for the entire game for some disciplinary action. By the end of the game, they had the student manager on the floor playing. The Crazies and Duke players wanted the kid to score in his one chance for fame, so the players stepped back and offered a free shot. The manager was so rattled by the gesture that he spazzed & double dribbled. I think he missed the second uncontested shot as well.

Can anyone fill in the details? I think it was Laettner era.....
:confused:

Uncle Drew
02-18-2008, 08:40 AM
Try going to a game against State in RBC (which I will be doing on March 1). The fans start booing the refs when they walk on the court and several older fans are taken off in stretchers during the game screaming at K. I find their fan base to be the most ignorant of the rules in the conference (and when Md is in the league, thats guite an indictment of the red and white.)



Fire so basically what you are saying is that is the norm in opposing arenas. Would someone like to explain is that only when their team plays Duke? For example when Henderson did a hook move to get free under the basket, even as a biased Duke fan I could clearly see that was a foul. Yet it seems when fans from other schools get a call on their player, even on obvious calls they feel they are being robbed.

I liken this to a football game where the defensive guy is pulling the recievers jersey and the refs call interferance, yet the fans go balistic their team got called for a foul. Has the anti-duke tsunami grown so strong that it has made opposing fans blind or down right stupid? We Duke fans in general are probably the most knowledgable fans in America about the entire game. As much as I hate to say it UNC fans though repulsive also know the game pretty well, like UK, Kansas etc. But some schools have fans that either don't know (insert your wn curse word) about the game and the rules or Duke is so despised through out the entire nation that fans feel a seperate set of rules apply when playing them.

I am NOT suggesting Duke did not commit their fair share of fouls last night even with the questional calls and no calls through out the game. But I have seen one team get more fouls called against them and the head coach point out the discrepancy to the refs. The number of fouls called on both teams is not supposed to be equal to make it fair. If yor team is committing more fouls you might want to teach them better defense and to stop hacking. And again those who say Duke gets all the calls are so full of equestrian fecal matter it's running out their ears. I've seen very few games where five players on one team fouled out, even in an over time game. For the entire starting five to foul out in unprecidented in Duke history and I know I've never seen it happen to any other team.

Thanks for your input Fire. At least I know it's just not Wake fans who look at games through bumble bee glasses. It's been a while since I've seen a game at Cameron, bt are the Duke fans in attendance anywhere near as blindly biased about blatant calls?

dukie8
02-18-2008, 08:44 AM
According to GoDuke.com, this was the first time in Duke history that all five STARTERS fouled out!

i remember watching an arizona/illinois game in the ncaat (i think 2003) where arizona fouled out a ton of players but i don't think it was the entire starting team and many of the fouls were in the last couple of minutes and intentional. it seemed like all but paulus fouled out before the intentional fouls started. i wonder how many times this has happened in the history of the ncaa. it can't be that many.

rsvman
02-18-2008, 08:48 AM
Is it just me or does anyone else out there wonder what in the world Coach K is doing with Taylor King? Remember, the guy who put up 27 points on phenomenal three point shooting in limited playing time in a game early in the season? With a need for offensive production in the second half against Wake, Taylor sat while Scheyer went 0-8 and Golden Boy Singler threw the ball all over the place. With Nolan Smith's fine penetration, I could just visualize King hitting 5 three's in about 5 minutes to turn this game around.

I'm sure someone will tell me King is a defensive liability, but last night nobody else was doing so hot on defense, and we needed offense. I'm sure someone will tell me King's shot has not been there recently. How would you know? He comes in, cold off the bench, misses one shot and is gone immediately. King must be demoralized- he's barely in the game, he's out. He does anything wrong, he's pulled, whereas Singler can make the most ridiculous turnovers, throwing passes practically to the stands, and he's good for 37 minutes.

So I'm curious: was anybody else thinking, "Put King in," last night against Wake? Does anyone else think King has been getting pulled way too quickly and not given a chance?

Yes. I was thinking the same thing. Nobody is making any shots. There's no offense whatsoever. Wake is extending the lead. Why not give TK a chance? Yes, I know he's "Icy-hot," but if he happens to be hot, he can bring the team back into a game in a hurry! What was there to lose at that point?

Devilsfan
02-18-2008, 09:02 AM
What was the significance of the opposing coaches wear the other teams colors?
Also, maybe Kyle hit a small wall. I know he had 17 pts. but I don't remember him ever throwing such soft passes. I think he had 5 turnovers in the first half.
I too am in the camp of playing Taylor more. I know he seems to have lost all his confidence. I just hope he stays at Duke because I think he can and will be a valuable part of the team in his four years of elligibility.
No high school star wants to be relagated to a bench warmer.

FerryFor50
02-18-2008, 09:08 AM
What was the significance of the opposing coaches wear the other teams colors?
Also, maybe Kyle hit a small wall. I know he had 17 pts. but I don't remember him ever throwing such soft passes. I think he had 5 turnovers in the first half.
I too am in the camp of playing Taylor more. I know he seems to have lost all his confidence. I just hope he stays at Duke because I think he can and will be a valuable part of the team in his four years of elligibility.
No high school star wants to be relagated to a bench warmer.

Agreed.

I think King's lack of playing time has to do with his shot selection, as well as Coach K's tendency to shorten his bench every year around this time when he needs the role players to get meaningful minutes.

MulletMan
02-18-2008, 09:25 AM
Well, I read the first 6 pages of this thread and just can't stand to read anymore, so here are my thoughts after the drive home in the rain, and a night to sleep on it.

1. LJC is a great venue. Kudos to Wake for its design and accessibility. The Wake fans that we were sitting with were knowledgable and we enjoyed chatting with them during the game about thier team, Dino and Skip.

2. To whoever posted "WTF is with the yellow tie"... shut your mouth. Skip Prosser was one of the great stewards of the game of college basketball. I met him when he was the coach at Xavier, and spoke with him several times in Cameron once he came to Wake. He was a great coach and friend of K... if you think the tie was out of line, you're sadly mistaken.

3. The over and back WAS over and back. Scheyer tipped that ball twice before it went across the line, and he essentially had control of it before he lost it.

4. The foul on G was NOT intentional... it was hard, but Macfarlane went for the ball. Terrible call.

5. Duke did not lose becuase of the officiating. Yes, the officials were horrendous, however, the officials did not blow 10-12 lay ups, and the officials did not prevent our team from making FTs. Layups and FTs... fundamentals.

6. At no point in the game did Duke match Wake's intensity. Every time Wake made a bucket or a good defensive play, thier entire bench was up and cheering... practially on the floor. Duke didn't even look like they knew that a game was occuring.

7. Paulus was not to blame for Duke's offensive struggles. Everyone was extrememly tentative... this was epitomized in one trip during the first half in which LT got in position for a rebound on a drive by G... who pump faked and passed the ball to Scheyer... who drove into the lane, went up, faked and dumped the ball off to Singler who pumped... and then LT got whistled for 3 seconds. Well, perhaps we should have SHOT THE F-ING BALL!

8. Jon Scheyer is a defensive liability? OK, so those who answer in the affirmative actually don't watch Duke basketball, right?

9. I said in the pregame thread that the key to this game would be stopping Wakes dribble penetration. It was, and we didn't. Our transition D was terrible and Smith and Teague pretty much got to the three point arc or inside before someone picked them up. That was really what killed us.

10. Sadly, for all the good we experienced with the Wake fans, there were two rather embarassing moments for them (in my eyes). First, when Scheyer tweaked his ankle in the first half, they let loose with chants of “Scheyer’s crying!” Pure class there. Then, in the second half, when Duke went on that little run and was up 5 with about 12 minutes left, they started pelting the Duke bench with crap. The PA announcer asked that fans not throw things at the benches… the ENTIRE ARENA booed. Good times.

Duke played a terrible game. However, what matters now is how they bounce back. Don't slit your wrist just yet... there's still a lot of ball to be played, and we're 10-1 in the ACC with a game in hand over the Holes. If you'd told me that in November, I'd have taken it!

grc5
02-18-2008, 09:29 AM
Anyone know why it took about 6 minutes before Scheyer got in the game? It looked like he was the 8th man or so today. Any chance he was hurt?

I was wondering that too. Zoubek and McClure both came off the bench before Scheyer.

I saw Jon walking around pretty gingerly this morning, but I think that might just be a result of leaving it all on the floor last night. It could have also been the result of tweaking that ankle. On the court though, he certainly didn't look injured. Maybe his legs are getting tired.

ohioguy2
02-18-2008, 09:29 AM
MM--very well written and thought out--I agree with it all--bouncing back is the key--did anyone actually expect us to go undefeated the rest of the season??

dukeENG2003
02-18-2008, 09:40 AM
maybe its been mentioned, but why was the Wake scoreboard operator allowed to get away with TWICE letting the clock run during free throws (each time trying to run off around 7 seconds). It was corrected both times, but I find it hard to believe that this wasn't intentional. In both cases, the clock had already stopped, and then was restarted several seconds later, while players were on the line in a situation where it was VERY clear that running time off benefited the home team.

Didn't affect the outcome, but seems like you can forgive this sort of thing once as an "error", but twice? Come on. I certainly hope they were warned the second time.

MulletMan
02-18-2008, 09:46 AM
MM--very well written and thought out--I agree with it all--bouncing back is the key--did anyone actually expect us to go undefeated the rest of the season??

Sadly, yes. I'm sure that many people actually believed that Duke would go through the ACC slate undefeated. Truth be told, with our schedule remaining, it was a possibility, but as I told my buddy last night after Wake dropped 47 on us in the first half... what do we learn if we win that game last night other than we can again come out flat and "turn it on" in the second half. I hope the great lesson from last night is that to play like a champion, you have to play all out and be focused for 40 minutes.

Mudge
02-18-2008, 09:49 AM
Fire so basically what you are saying is that is the norm in opposing arenas. Would someone like to explain is that only when their team plays Duke? For example when Henderson did a hook move to get free under the basket, even as a biased Duke fan I could clearly see that was a foul. Yet it seems when fans from other schools get a call on their player, even on obvious calls they feel they are being robbed.

I am NOT suggesting Duke did not commit their fair share of fouls last night even with the questional calls and no calls through out the game. But I have seen one team get more fouls called against them and the head coach point out the discrepancy to the refs. The number of fouls called on both teams is not supposed to be equal to make it fair. If yor team is committing more fouls you might want to teach them better defense and to stop hacking. And again those who say Duke gets all the calls are so full of equestrian fecal matter it's running out their ears. I've seen very few games where five players on one team fouled out, even in an over time game. For the entire starting five to foul out in unprecidented in Duke history and I know I've never seen it happen to any other team.


I believe that Clemson (under Rick Barnes) in the late '90's lost so many players to fouls that they finished a game against UNC with only 3 players on the court. I don't recall if Clemson had any starters left-- though it doesn't really matter much, when you are playing 3 against 5, does it? Those were the days when Barnes decided to turn his games against UNC into football (and chippy football, at that). Oh, by the way, there's only one "R" in (Wake) Forest, even if there are two in Forrest (Gump).

Bluedog
02-18-2008, 09:52 AM
Scheyer is limping around campus today. Anybody know if he got injured? Hopefully, he's just really sore or something. I don't want to start a panic or anything, but was just curious if anybody has any inside info.

oso diablo
02-18-2008, 09:55 AM
maybe its been mentioned, but why was the Wake scoreboard operator allowed to get away with TWICE letting the clock run during free throws (each time trying to run off around 7 seconds). It was corrected both times, but I find it hard to believe that this wasn't intentional. In both cases, the clock had already stopped, and then was restarted several seconds later, while players were on the line in a situation where it was VERY clear that running time off benefited the home team.

Didn't affect the outcome, but seems like you can forgive this sort of thing once as an "error", but twice? Come on. I certainly hope they were warned the second time.
i'm guessing it was mechanical error, not operator error. sure, it looks fishy, given the context, but i base my opinion on this...

waiting for the 2nd half to start, before teams even took the court again, the clock ran down 10 seconds to 19:50, and had to be reset. maybe he was just practicing for later, though. ;)

oso diablo
02-18-2008, 09:59 AM
10. Sadly, for all the good we experienced with the Wake fans, there were two rather embarassing moments for them (in my eyes). First, when Scheyer tweaked his ankle in the first half, they let loose with chants of “Scheyer’s crying!” Pure class there. Then, in the second half, when Duke went on that little run and was up 5 with about 12 minutes left, they started pelting the Duke bench with crap. The PA announcer asked that fans not throw things at the benches… the ENTIRE ARENA booed. Good times.
on that last part, i cracked up at the time, asking my father-in-law if they were booing themselves.

i thought the worst thing from the Wake fans was doing a very loud cheer to drown out the Duke player introductions. Do we do that in Cameron? Back in my day (TM), we greeted opposing players with a hearty "Hi, Rodney" or whatever their name was. I found it (last night) to be poor sportsmanship.

Mudge
02-18-2008, 10:01 AM
Is it just me or does anyone else out there wonder what in the world Coach K is doing with Taylor King? Remember, the guy who put up 27 points on phenomenal three point shooting in limited playing time in a game early in the season? With a need for offensive production in the second half against Wake, Taylor sat while Scheyer went 0-8 and Golden Boy Singler threw the ball all over the place. With Nolan Smith's fine penetration, I could just visualize King hitting 5 three's in about 5 minutes to turn this game around.

I'm sure someone will tell me King is a defensive liability, but last night nobody else was doing so hot on defense, and we needed offense. I'm sure someone will tell me King's shot has not been there recently. How would you know? He comes in, cold off the bench, misses one shot and is gone immediately. King must be demoralized- he's barely in the game, he's out. He does anything wrong, he's pulled, whereas Singler can make the most ridiculous turnovers, throwing passes practically to the stands, and he's good for 37 minutes.

So I'm curious: was anybody else thinking, "Put King in," last night against Wake? Does anyone else think King has been getting pulled way too quickly and not given a chance?

Are you one of King's partying buddies on campus? Because if you aren't, you might have noticed that King has been highly ineffective when he is in the game lately, and with 6-7 other players playing much better, it's going to be hard to stay on the floor when you aren't successfully doing the one thing you are good at (making long shots, when you're open and they pass you the ball), and the rest of your game is not going well.

I'm thinking that Singler is getting 37 minutes a game because he is far and away the headiest (last night's game notwithstanding), most complete, most effective, and best player on this team-- and the one player this team cannot do without-- if Singler doesn't play for Duke this year, I think this team would have between 5-7 more losses than it currently does... if King doesn't play, I'm not sure the record is any different than it is. In any event, I'd be more disappointed in King's lack of opportunities, if I felt that he was doing all he could outside of the games to maximize his potential-- which would include trying to watch his intake of unnecessary carbohydrates and toxins.

RPS
02-18-2008, 10:14 AM
The weeping, wailing and teeth-knashing are a bit over the top (in my humble estimation). Wake was better and deserved to win. Next play.

Also, let's more careful to distinguish legitimate concerns from illegitimate ones.


Dribble penetration was huge. Wake got it consistently; we didn't.

3-point shooting was off. It happens. But I was concerned that we took too many even after it was clear that we were struggling. I would have preferred trying something else. Easily fixed though.

Ref talk is foolish. With 10 minutes left, FTs were about even; then the rails came off for us. If we want to criticize the silliness of "Duke gets all the calls," we need to practice what we preach.

Like others, I'm concerned about GH's health. I'm also hoping JS's rolled ankle is okay.

Gaudio and Wake were very impressive. If their recruiting class is close to as good as advertised, Wake should become extremely good.

The gold ties to honor Skip were terrific.

Bad shooting. Bad shot selection. Way too many turnovers. And we're still in it late against a very good home team playing great. Not the end of the world. Not even close.
Next play.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
02-18-2008, 10:23 AM
Are you one of King's partying buddies on campus? Because if you aren't, you might have noticed that King has been highly ineffective when he is in the game lately, and with 6-7 other players playing much better, it's going to be hard to stay on the floor when you aren't successfully doing the one thing you are good at (making long shots, when you're open and they pass you the ball), and the rest of your game is not going well.

I disagree. Taylor has been ice cold, but he's actually been good (not great) in a lot of other aspects. He's rebounding and blocking shots fairly well, given his size. His D is still pretty lacking, though. Generally I have no problem with the minute distribution this season, but I would have loved to see K toss Taylor in just to see how he's shooting last night and maybe even run a J.J. screen play or two. If he's hot, he's quite a weapon. If he's cold, well, it can't be worse than Jon (0-3), G (0-2), or Greg (1-6). I do believe K was, erm, okay with this loss and deliberately didn't do anything to protect the team from their own overconfidence. This was a teaching moment at the perfect time in the season.

DukePA
02-18-2008, 10:29 AM
My tarheel boyfriend (yes, it is very tough living with a carowhina fan!) questioned the fact that our starters all fouled out of the game. He felt that the officiating was poor, but I pointed out that we would have lost anyway given the fact that the team just did not bring it. Hopefully the guys will learn and grow after last night. I don't know about anyone else, but I would much rather see this happen now instead of during the tournament or, God forbid on March 8th!

GO DUKE, no matter what!!!

tbyers11
02-18-2008, 10:36 AM
I have to post my take on the intentional foul by McFarland on Gerald b/c I didn't think it was an awful call. The replay that I saw showed that McFarland jumped in the air with both of his hands together over his head (kinda like how one would put their hands together before diving off a diving board) and he came down with a hard tomahawk motion with the hands still together. He got some ball and didn't hit Gerald that hard (partially b/c Gerald was knocked off his flight path by another Wake player making contact with him from the other side), but the amount of contact is irrelevant. This was an intentional, not a flagrant (which I don't believe exist in college ball) foul.

IMO, the referee thought that the way McFarland challenged Gerald (two hands together, tomahawk motion) showed that he had no intention of trying to make a clean play for the ball and called the intentional accordingly. The ref may have been influenced by McFarland's chippy play and technical for jawing earlier in the game. But hey, McFarland reaped what he had sown.

Feldspar, or any of the other refs out there, does my take have any merit on how referees are instructed to call intentional fouls or am I just making stuff up?

grc5
02-18-2008, 10:40 AM
Scheyer is limping around campus today. Anybody know if he got injured? Hopefully, he's just really sore or something. I don't want to start a panic or anything, but was just curious if anybody has any inside info.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions, noted above. Scheyer rolled his ankle yesterday, so I'm sure that the limp is the result of that. If they let him play through it, however, I doubt that it's very serious.

Chard
02-18-2008, 10:40 AM
The two things I noticed in the short span I saw was 1) bump outs on the baseline. Didn't the playcaller address this? If you have the ball and step out of bounds, it's either out or a foul if you were bumped out. It seemed really straightforward to me, and I find it hard to believe that all of those were our players stepping out without a bump on the baseline. I'll believe one or two could be a bad camera angle on our part, but seriously?


I don't know if anyone else caught this but around the half there was video of the Wake locker room with Gaudet speaking to the team. On the dry erase board you'll see something like "Absolute must haves" or something on the lower left side. I believe #1 was defend the baseline. They weren't going to let Duke have the baseline drives no matter what. I assume that included fouling the offensive player. I guess that worked out for them.

dukeENG2003
02-18-2008, 10:41 AM
i'm guessing it was mechanical error, not operator error. sure, it looks fishy, given the context, but i base my opinion on this...

waiting for the 2nd half to start, before teams even took the court again, the clock ran down 10 seconds to 19:50, and had to be reset. maybe he was just practicing for later, though. ;)

Hmm, didn't see that incident, but I suppose that provides proof in their favor (although they were winning at half, so there was motivation for that incident too). :)

Uncle Drew
02-18-2008, 10:41 AM
The weeping, wailing and teeth-knashing are a bit over the top (in my humble estimation). Wake was better and deserved to win. Next play.

Also, let's more careful to distinguish legitimate concerns from illegitimate ones.


Dribble penetration was huge. Wake got it consistently; we didn't.

3-point shooting was off. It happens. But I was concerned that we took too many even after it was clear that we were struggling. I would have preferred trying something else. Easily fixed though.

Ref talk is foolish. With 10 minutes left, FTs were about even; then the rails came off for us. If we want to criticize the silliness of "Duke gets all the calls," we need to practice what we preach.

Like others, I'm concerned about GH's health. I'm also hoping JS's rolled ankle is okay.

Gaudio and Wake were very impressive. If their recruiting class is close to as good as advertised, Wake should become extremely good.

The gold ties to honor Skip were terrific.

Bad shooting. Bad shot selection. Way too many turnovers. And we're still in it late against a very good home team playing great. Not the end of the world. Not even close.
Next play.


RPS, I for one am not blamming the Wake fans, refs or anone other than Duke for the loss last night. If Duke played better, even doing something as simple as their free throws they would have been either in the game at the end or ahead. Wake beat Duke flat out last night. Your points about dribble penetration and Wake was nailing 3's especially early in the game are correct. That's usually Duke's forte, it was really odd to see a team doing to Duke what they usually do to others. The better playing team won last night. I for one am not disputing that at all. I was mostly commenting on how the fans in LJVMC reacted when ANY call went against them. And we all know Duke takes every teams best shot at home or away. I just wonder if some of these teams are able to channel all this energy and spirit against Duke why they can't get pumped to play UNC Charlotte and UGA. It will be intresting to see how up they are for UNC. I can't label this as a "good" loss for Duke against an ACC foe they should have been better prepared up and matched the intensity against. (Like IMO the Pitt loss, if any loss was a good one that would be it.) Still it's not over, the sky isn't in the process of falling and I have loved watching this team play. Next play, next game, let's just hope Duke learns from their mistakes and what ailments a few Duke players may or may not be sufferingfrom they can get over quickly.

Bluedog
02-18-2008, 10:46 AM
Thanks for confirming my suspicions, noted above. Scheyer rolled his ankle yesterday, so I'm sure that the limp is the result of that. If they let him play through it, however, I doubt that it's very serious.

Ah, sorry for repeating what you had already said! I didn't get a chance to read the entire 11-page thread. And thanks for the response.

Ben63
02-18-2008, 10:48 AM
This will be my 38th and final post here. Too much negativity. This is not 1991, 1992, or 2001. This is an over-achieving group of kids who have played a remarkable season thus far, and all most of you can do is start threads about whether we are really that good, or whether we rely on the 3 too much. Some of us have been following Duke ball since before many of you were born, and are delighted with this team's effort, win or lose. Thanks for the effort to teach me about the length of college basketball games, and I was shocked to learn that they don't have to retrieve the ball from the peach baskets anymore. Please just enjoy the magnificent effort these boys are putting forward for your enjoyment, and stop harping on things that, frankly, most of you don't know jack about.

Regards-
Section 8

Too much negativity?? WTF, we lost, losing is a negative thing. Losing to an inferior conference opponent sucks. Of course we are gonna be negative.

yancem
02-18-2008, 10:49 AM
I don't know. We had 3 losses in a row before that game. We were terrible the whole second half of the season last year. Maybe we have just been overachieving this whole year, but if not I think this was definitely our worst game in several years. Our starting lineup fouled out, Coach K wore a gold tie and didn't show any emotion the whole night, and only Nolan Smith looked like he wanted to win.

Yeah, what was the deal with the yellow tie? I thought that it was very weird to wear a tie with the opposing teams colors. Very weird.

RPS
02-18-2008, 10:51 AM
If Duke played better, even doing something as simple as their free throws they would have been either in the game at the end or ahead.FT shooting is another key point and one I should have mentioned.


Wake beat Duke flat out last night.We agree.


I was mostly commenting on how the fans in LJVMC reacted when ANY call went against them.How do you think opposing fans see things when they visit CIS?


And we all know Duke takes every teams best shot at home or away. I just wonder if some of these teams are able to channel all this energy and spirit against Duke why they can't get pumped to play UNC Charlotte and UGA.When I was in college, I didn't give my best effort in every class, on every test, in every intermural game. I was a college kid. Thankfully, I wasn't on TV a lot.


It will be intresting to see how up they are for UNC.Especially since it's at the Dean Dome.


Next play, next game, let's just hope Duke learns from their mistakes and what ailments a few Duke players may or may not be sufferingfrom they can get over quickly.Agreed.

FerryFor50
02-18-2008, 10:54 AM
Especially since it's at the Dean Dome.



The next UNC meeting is at Cameron.

gw67
02-18-2008, 10:56 AM
tbyers11 - IMO, that was not an intentional foul; however, your point about the previous technical and the motion by McFarland probably influenced the call (i. e., chippy Wake player nailing Duke player). Henderson had a good run and goes very hard to dunk the ball. You better be ready to man up if you want to stop him. Osby is one of the strongest players in the ACC and dared to stop Henderson on a drive last week and came away laughing about it after he got the ball but fouled Henderson.

I think that it was a bad call (Hey, that happens.) but the worst part was that it seemed to energize the Wake coach, players and fans. I'm biased but I think it may have influenced the refs as well for the next several minutes.

gw67

Johnboy
02-18-2008, 11:09 AM
Yeah, what was the deal with the yellow tie? I thought that it was very weird to wear a tie with the opposing teams colors. Very weird.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you are really clueless and not just a jerk. Are you aware that Skip Prosser, the Wake Forest coach last season, passed away suddenly this past summer?

It's not weird to pay tribute to a man whose passing left a terrible void in the college basketball world. It's classy.

It has also been dealt with on this thread already.

RPS
02-18-2008, 11:16 AM
The next UNC meeting is at Cameron.Latta was referring to Wake and Wake plays UNC at the Dean Dome next.


I think that it was a bad call (Hey, that happens.)I agree.


...but the worst part was that it seemed to energize the Wake coach, players and fans. I'm biased but I think it may have influenced the refs as well for the next several minutes.Actually, it became the start of the Duke run that got the lead to 5 before Wake came back and the wheels came off for Duke.

BlueintheFace
02-18-2008, 11:26 AM
Last night in K-ville the crazies witnessed the players trod out of Cameron one after the other... heads hung low. This was depressing enough, but then Jon Scheyer walked out, except he wasn't really walking. Jon could barely hobble out. It looks like that ankle injury is much worse than we all thought.

Toss in Gerald's wrist injury and this team is starting to look a little ragged. If these injuries are going to be lasting, how should K game plan for the rest of the season? I guess the real question is, how important is that #1 seed in the East really? Is it worth possibly dropping a few games and seeds for a healthy team in March?

Neals384
02-18-2008, 11:28 AM
Let's look on the bright side. When you have a 12 game winning streak, everyone thinks he's superman. Losing gives coach K an opportunity to correct some of the bad habits his players have.

happydays1949
02-18-2008, 11:40 AM
.

i thought the worst thing from the Wake fans was doing a very loud cheer to drown out the Duke player introductions. Do we do that in Cameron? Back in my day (TM), we greeted opposing players with a hearty "Hi, Rodney" or whatever their name was. I found it (last night) to be poor sportsmanship.


Last night was the first time I have been in an opposing team's gym in over 5 years. I couldn't even hear the introductions, and thought it was very poor sportsmanship. Or, perhaps every other team does that now...does anyone know?

Classof06
02-18-2008, 11:41 AM
What team isn't young these days. Just look at Wake; they have no seniors and start 2 freshmen and 3 sophomores.

Sorry but I just don't buy the "young" argument anymore.

I followed that statement up by saying young or not, we were due for a bad game. But that doesn't change the fact that Duke is a young team. We have one senior and two juniors. I don't care what our national ranking is or what our record is, this is a young team. That's not making any excuses, that's the truth.

houstondukie
02-18-2008, 12:06 PM
...for a total of 4 points.

houstondukie
02-18-2008, 12:09 PM
That #1 seed in the East is critical. With that said, I think we can still beat teams at the bottom of the ACC with some of our players resting, especially home games.

micah75
02-18-2008, 12:11 PM
5. Duke did not lose becuase of the officiating. Yes, the officials were horrendous, however, the officials did not blow 10-12 lay ups, and the officials did not prevent our team from making FTs. Layups and FTs... fundamentals.

That pretty much sums up my general take on the game.


10. Sadly, for all the good we experienced with the Wake fans, there were two rather embarassing moments for them (in my eyes). First, when Scheyer tweaked his ankle in the first half, they let loose with chants of “Scheyer’s crying!” Pure class there. Then, in the second half, when Duke went on that little run and was up 5 with about 12 minutes left, they started pelting the Duke bench with crap. The PA announcer asked that fans not throw things at the benches… the ENTIRE ARENA booed. Good times.

I had noticed in several shots of Coach K in the 2nd half that he had some white specks on his jacket that you don't normally see. I guess the Wake fans pelting the Duke bench would explain that.

I'm a huge Greg Paulus fan, but I also like Nolan Smith as well, and (2nd-guessing of course) felt he should have played more minutes early on, being that the biorhythms seemed to be off for Greg and nearly everyone else. He had a monster game playing only 18 minutes. Seemed to be pulling a Tyus Edny on several possessions late in the game.

Could have done without Fox's overkill camera shots of McFarland's yukkie pinkie.

Classof06
02-18-2008, 12:21 PM
While I believe Duke can go deep in the tournament regardless, I think they need that 1 seed in the East to have a legitimate chance at winning it all. That would help this team immensely. They need to get back on the horse and keep going because UNC seems to be getting stronger by the day. The last thing this team needs to do is scale it back.

Yeah, we seemed to be a little dinged up. But this is why depth is key, ladies and gentleman..

dcarp23
02-18-2008, 12:24 PM
I'm a huge Greg Paulus fan, but I also like Nolan Smith as well, and (2nd-guessing of course) felt he should have played more minutes early on, being that the biorhythms seemed to be off for Greg and nearly everyone else. He had a monster game playing only 18 minutes. Seemed to be pulling a Tyus Edny on several possessions late in the game. .

I really like the lineup when both guys are in there. If Henderson's wrist continues to bother him as much as it appears, maybe we'll see more of that lineup.


Could have done without Fox's overkill camera shots of McFarland's yukkie pinkie.

Could not agree more. That was nasty, and they would NOT quit showing it.

DU82
02-18-2008, 12:26 PM
By rule, to have back court you first need team control, and there is no team control from the time the ball is shot until someone secures the rebound.

Obviously, the refs must have decided Duke had secured the rebound, even if ever so briefly, before the ball was subsequently knocked loose (which does not end team control).

-jk

It wasn't a rebound, if I remember correctly (it's long gone from my DVR, of course!) Jon had control dribbling, the ball was knocked loose, Jon knocked it to the backcourt, and then he touched it. Backcourt violation as it was still team control.

I agree had it been a long rebound, and a player touched it and it went into the backcourt, it would not be a violation.

Cameron
02-18-2008, 12:34 PM
how important is that #1 seed in the East really?

Important enough that if we get it we won't have to leave the state on our way to San Antonio. Even though the state of North Carolina is not a vast (or even half) contingency of Duke faithful, this would help us out greatly not to have to travel to the unfriendly confines of anti-Duke sites. Although Rupp Arena isn't a scheduled site this year, a hostile enviroment like that is always nice to avoid for Duke teams (we all remember the home-court advantage Indiana had there in '02).

I agree with Classof06, in that for us to have a legitimate shot at cutting down the nets in April, we need to come out of Charlotte. Now I don't propose us playing seriously injured players (if God forbid we should encounter that problem) in order to attain the East's top seed, but it would greatly help us if we could end up with it.

DU82
02-18-2008, 12:40 PM
So in seeing the 5 starters fouling out, I am trying to remember a game: The team we played had most of their starters benched for the entire game for some disciplinary action. By the end of the game, they had the student manager on the floor playing. The Crazies and Duke players wanted the kid to score in his one chance for fame, so the players stepped back and offered a free shot. The manager was so rattled by the gesture that he spazzed & double dribbled. I think he missed the second uncontested shot as well.

Can anyone fill in the details? I think it was Laettner era.....
:confused:

Clemson, circa '92. The manager came in late, and put up a shot. I believe Tony Lang blocked it. Many of us there were (kiddingly) mad at Tony for not letting the kid make a shot.

Coach K asked for the fans to go easy on Clemson, so after a quick "hit the books" cheer, nothing else was said (that was audible to the upstairs crowd.)

I'm not positive it was the same game, but it was against Clemson that Randy Denton's son, who was a ~6'5" ball boy (back when we had them) dunked the ball before the game (while both teams were in the locker room.) During the first half, when we had some incredible lead, the chant "the ballboy's better" went up.

The1Bluedevil
02-18-2008, 12:42 PM
The two possibilities are 1 in the East or 2 in the Midwest. 1 in the East means homecourt but also means a possible sweet 16 matchup with Mr. Beasley. Quite frankly I don't want to see that play out.

UCLA will be a 2 seed in the West so Duke will be sent to the Midwest behind either Tennessee or Kansas. In my opinion I'd rather be the 2 in the Midwest playing Tennessee then K-State at a home game.

pfrduke
02-18-2008, 12:48 PM
The two possibilities are 1 in the East or 2 in the Midwest. 1 in the East means homecourt but also means a possible sweet 16 matchup with Mr. Beasley. Quite frankly I don't want to see that play out.

UCLA will be a 2 seed in the West so Duke will be sent to the Midwest behind either Tennessee or Kansas. In my opinion I'd rather be the 2 in the Midwest playing Tennessee then K-State at a home game.

You have some remarkable insight into seeding given that there are three weeks of basketball left to play before the tournament. Why wouldn't UCLA possibly get a 1? Why wouldn't K-State possibly get a 3? Why would Duke automatically go to the Midwest as a 2? The answer is, all of those things could happen, but might not. People are notoriously inaccurate in predicting the seeding within hours of when the field is announced. Making predictions like this 3 weeks in advance is complete folly.

The1Bluedevil
02-18-2008, 01:00 PM
Just throwing out a possibilty.

devildeac
02-18-2008, 01:12 PM
Try going to a game against State in RBC (which I will be doing on March 1). The fans start booing the refs when they walk on the court and several older fans are taken off in stretchers during the game screaming at K. I find their fan base to be the most ignorant of the rules in the conference (and when Md is in the league, thats guite an indictment of the red and white.)

My sister-in-law and her husband attended the Duke-gt game last year in Atlanta and had little, if anything complimentary to say about the gt fans and their knowledge(or lack thereof) about the rules and game of basketball. They described it much as our fans have done in recent years/games, when they have visited other arenas such as comcast, T'hassee, vt, and the Dump on the Hump. Those comments have usually been that they can't believe any fouls are properly called against their team and everything should be a foul on Duke. Even after we beat the holes this year, a comment was overheard by one of their fans complaining that the 'refs really screwed us' in that game. Of course, they forgot the fact that the holes had outshot us on FT by about 26-7 until about the last 3 minutes of the game when they had to foul us as teams usually do in end-of-game situations when trailing. Just more Duke- hating perpetuated by clowns like brando, elmore, patrick, billy pecker and...

SharkD
02-18-2008, 01:40 PM
i thought the worst thing from the Wake fans was doing a very loud cheer to drown out the Duke player introductions. Do we do that in Cameron? Back in my day (TM), we greeted opposing players with a hearty "Hi, Rodney" or whatever their name was. I found it (last night) to be poor sportsmanship.

Last night was the first time I have been in an opposing team's gym in over 5 years. I couldn't even hear the introductions, and thought it was very poor sportsmanship. Or, perhaps every other team does that now...does anyone know?

Well, if my recent visit to the Dean Dome (Carolina's cumsy drubbing of Virginia Tech; no, I still can't get the smell off, or stop the burning sensation), the Whine and Cheese-Itz crowd proceeded to yammer away during the Hokies' introduction. (As expected, they had to be reminded to make 'noise' by the jumbotrons, lest they forget how to cheer on their team; similarly, the students are reminded to 'jump' -- which they promptly stopped doing 2-3 seconds after the audio/visual cue ended.) I'm also pretty sure that the PA announcer either turned-up the volume for the Tarheels' intros, or decided to use his 'inside voice' for the Hokies'.

I found it pretty classless. Sure, the Crazies add 'you suck!' for the bigger opponents, but they still allow the announcer to read the name.

patentgeek
02-18-2008, 01:59 PM
My primary complaint about attending games in other arenas (and this hold whether Duke is the opponent or not) is that fans don't appear to recognize the difference between a bad call (i.e., the ref made the wrong call) and an unfavorable call. If a fan feels the need to complain about a truly incorrect call, I suppose that's fine - but how many calls in each game can one sitting in the stands know is truly, blatantly incorrect? I suspect very few, particularly without the benefit of replay. Nothing makes a group of fans look more ignorant and less sympathetic than constant whining about unfavorable, but often correct, calls.

DU Band Prez 88
02-18-2008, 03:43 PM
You have some remarkable insight into seeding given that there are three weeks of basketball left to play before the tournament. Why wouldn't UCLA possibly get a 1? Why wouldn't K-State possibly get a 3? Why would Duke automatically go to the Midwest as a 2? The answer is, all of those things could happen, but might not. People are notoriously inaccurate in predicting the seeding within hours of when the field is announced. Making predictions like this 3 weeks in advance is complete folly.

You are correct...this is way, way too soon to even start thinking about this stuff! Also, enough with the 250+ end-of-the-world posts because they lost the Wake game. Unbelievable. Let's just KEEP MOVING ON and forget about the Wake game and the hyper-analysis...the players will have this totally behind them as soon as they step on the court on Wednesday night. Look at history - all of Coach K's best Duke teams had tough, sometimes even bad, losses in mid-season. I believe that the '92 team lost 2 in a row mid-season, including to a not very good Wake team on the road, and wasn't Hurley injured in this stretch? Please correct me if I'm wrong. And, then legions of Duke fans gave up on the team when the sky was falling in '01 with the loss at home to Maryland and Boozer's injury...

Does anyone on this board not think that this team is not going to have sharp, focused, tough practices and rebound by beating a mediocre Miami team on the road and demolishing a bad St. John's team in the next two games? We are still in the driver's seat to win the ACC regular season and the #1 seed in the ACC tournament, and that is the only seeding that is really important right now.

should_be_working
02-18-2008, 03:44 PM
(we all remember the home-court advantage Indiana had there in '02).

I had the displeasure of attending that game a few years back. Literally it was only about 10 seconds after the buzzer went off (and Duke had lost) before i was being hounded by Indiana fans wanting to buy my tickets. It was such a nasty feeling being in a supposedly neutral site and seeing a kentucky wildcat on the floor and the opposition being so closely located. Rupp hasn't been that loud, I'm quite sure, since. I think a number one seed in the east could very well result in a trip to the final four. Not completely necessary but important nonetheless.

First post by the way - I'm a duke fan living in the not-so-great state of kentucky. The crap i get on a daily basis is painful, but completely worth it. I just found this site the other day and feel as if i have found my people!

bp