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gw67
02-15-2008, 07:43 AM
ESPN is in the process of naming the 25 greatest college basketball players. In naming Tom Gola, it appears to me that they are sticking strictly to college basketball unlike the ACC sportswriters who named Jordan as the best ACC player in the first 50 years (IMO, Jordan is barely in the top ten). I suspect their best player is one of the big three – Alcindor/Jabbar, Walton or Russell. They were all great players who led their teams to championships. Behind them, I expect the Big O, Thompson, Lucas, Ewing, Maravich, Chamberlain, Bird and maybe Laettner and West. Luisetti may be on the list because he is credited with developing the one hand jump shot.
Based on the players I saw, I would vote for Lou Alcindor/Jabbar.

gw67

CDu
02-15-2008, 08:01 AM
I'm very surprised that Ralph Sampson was only #18. I would have suspected higher, and would definitely have put him ahead of Ewing. It'll be interesting to see who goes higher than him. But if Alcindor is not #1, I'm calling B.S.

pamtar
02-15-2008, 08:06 AM
I'd vote for the skywalker.

BlueintheFace
02-15-2008, 10:14 AM
No way guys, Lou Alcindor must come in number two. Pistol Pete Maravich was the best. If he was on UCLA at the time, we would be calling him the greatest player hands down, but he wasn't. He is the all time scoring leader in college basketball history.

Olympic Fan
02-15-2008, 10:17 AM
I wouldn't argue with Alcindor/Jabbar -- three straight national titles and he was the Final Four MVP in all three.

But I'd also vote for David Thompson, who was clearly the greatest non-center. I'm willing to bet that he finishes behind Walton in the ESPN vote, even though when the two took their teams to the Final Four in 1974, it was Thompson who prevailed -- even though Walton had by far the greater supporting cast (including four future all-pro players on the UCLA).

It would tick me off if he finished behind Oscar or Pistol Pete -- two stat hogs who never led their teams to championships. What does it say about you when your team only starts winning championships in the year AFTER you finish -- if Oscar is in your top three, then where is Tom Thacker? And LSU had one winning season with Maravich and never played in the NCAA Tournament.

The listing of Sampson at No. 18 seems awfully high to me for a guy who was renowned for choking in the clutch. Here's a guy who never won a championship ACC or NCAA. Ewing let his team to an NCAA championship (1984) and two more title games (1982, 1985). Sampson led Virginia to one Final Four, but choked the next two years .... His defenders tried to blame his supporting cast, but the year after Sampson left, Virginia finally made it back to the Final Four with Olden Polynice in the middle.

I also want to see how high Laettner makes it. If he winds up behind Jordan, then we'll know the "based on collegiate performance" is BS.

yancem
02-15-2008, 10:18 AM
I'm very surprised that Ralph Sampson was only #18. I would have suspected higher, and would definitely have put him ahead of Ewing. It'll be interesting to see who goes higher than him. But if Alcindor is not #1, I'm calling B.S.

I know that Sampson gets trashed because UVA struggled mightily in the big games but he was a 3 time first team AA and 2 time player of the year. He was completely dominate. I have a hard time seeing him as low as 18. He may not be top 10 but he should be very close.

Spret42
02-15-2008, 10:26 AM
No way guys, Lou Alcindor must come in number two. Pistol Pete Maravich was the best. If he was on UCLA at the time, we would be calling him the greatest player hands down, but he wasn't. He is the all time scoring leader in college basketball history.

With total humility.

I have no familiarity with Maravich with regard to direct viewing of his play. I begin with college basketball in 1982. I understand he scored a bunch of points, but from what I have heard, he also took a tremendous amount of shots and monopolized the ball a great deal. Would he have shot, scored and dominated the ball as much with UCLA, or would he simply have been a very skilled cog in a dominant machine?

Turtleboy
02-15-2008, 10:41 AM
With total humility.

I have no familiarity with Maravich with regard to direct viewing of his play. I begin with college basketball in 1982. I understand he scored a bunch of points, but from what I have heard, he also took a tremendous amount of shots and monopolized the ball a great deal. Would he have shot, scored and dominated the ball as much with UCLA, or would he simply have been a very skilled cog in a dominant machine?You can find his career stats here (http://www.lsusports.net/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=5200&ATCLID=177319). (Scroll down) He wasn't a ball hog, averaging over six rebounds and five assists a game.

He was a wizard with the basketball. Any team would be better for having him as a member.

dkbaseball
02-15-2008, 11:09 AM
Walton had by far the greater supporting cast (including four future all-pro players on the UCLA).

Wilkes, Meyers, Johnson and Washington?

My recollection of that game is what a factor Monty Towe was -- pushing, pushing, pushing the ball upcourt. It was never in the cards for him to be all-pro at 5'5", but people seem to forget what a great college player he was.

Lew Alcindor gets my nod, and I agree Thompson is second, nosing out Walton. Maravich was a gunner -- showtime -- who didn't make the players around him any better. I don't know if he even would have played at UCLA. Wooden liked an even scoring distribution and defense.

Tom B.
02-15-2008, 11:12 AM
Out of curiosity, who are the players that ESPN has named to the list so far?

Classof06
02-15-2008, 11:15 AM
Out of curiosity, who are the players that ESPN has named to the list so far?

In no particular order:

David Robinson
Austin Carr
Ralph Sampson
Tom Gola
Tim Duncan
Elgin Baylor

Classof06
02-15-2008, 11:18 AM
I'm very surprised that Ralph Sampson was only #18. I would have suspected higher, and would definitely have put him ahead of Ewing. It'll be interesting to see who goes higher than him. But if Alcindor is not #1, I'm calling B.S.

Watching the way they did the top 25 college football players of all-time, they're bound to produce some head-scratchers. Archie Griffin for Ohio State is the only player in the history of college football to win the Heisman twice and he was ranked #22 all-time. Wow.

Olympic Fan
02-15-2008, 11:18 AM
Named so far:

David Robinson
Austin Carr
Ralph Sampson
Tom Gola
Tim Duncan
Elgin Baylor

Which of these was born at Duke Hospital?

gw67
02-15-2008, 11:23 AM
Wilkes definitely played with Walton as did his backup Swen Nater who was a good pro. I don't think Meyers played on his teams but I think Johnson and Wicks were sophs when Walton was a senior. Thompson and Robertson were the best all around players and I respectively disagree with Olympic - Maravich was a ball hog but the Big O shot a high percentage and averaged about 10 assists per game. I saw both he and Thompson play in person and they were simply the best that I had ever seen play.

I also would put Russell and Walton ahead of Thompson and Robertson but I am really splitting hairs because all four are among the greatest of all time. Thompson did indeed outplay Walton in the NCAA's although the player he beat was Wilkes. Thompson was returning the favor to Keith who outplayed him during their regular season meeting.

gw67

captmojo
02-15-2008, 11:29 AM
Maravich was nothing without "the socks". :rolleyes:

BlueintheFace
02-15-2008, 11:34 AM
And LSU had one winning season with Maravich and never played in the NCAA Tournament.

Let us not forget that the NCAA tournament was a completely different beast back in Maravich's time. It was basically a straight trip to the sweet 16 for regional winners. (... and you wondered how UCLA won so many consecutive titles.)

Pistol Pete took a previously miserable losing team to the NIT Final Four (Not the same NIT as today). Also, he wasn't exactly a ball hog. It wasn't uncommon for Pete to dish out 8 or 9 assists a game. In fact, at least 2 or 3 times a season Pete would turn in 11, 12, even 19 assist performances.

Plus, he is the all time scoring leader in ONLY THREE YEARS (44 pts/game, 3667 pts).

My final argument for Pistol Pete is that we should look at criteria. Last year, Kevin Durant was the winner without argument. Was he on a championship caliber team? No. The best player doesn't need to be the dominant player on the best team. He just needs to be a great player on a relevant team (Often times the team is relevant because of the player). The player of the year award has always worked this way.

Lou Alcindor made a very good team, great. Maravich made a terrible team very good. The player of the year award has historically treated two players with these two profiles equally. So, this being the case, who was better? I still must give the nod to the greatest offensive player the NCAA has ever seen- Pistol Pete!

Duvall
02-15-2008, 11:37 AM
I still must give the nod to the greatest offensive player the NCAA has ever seen- Pistol Pete!

There's more to the game than offense.

dkbaseball
02-15-2008, 11:38 AM
Wilkes definitely played with Walton as did his backup Swen Nater who was a good pro. I don't think Meyers played on his teams but I think Johnson and Wicks were sophs when Walton was a senior. gw67

Sorry, got to make corrections:

Wicks -- class of '71. Didn't play with Walton who was on the freshman team in '71. Wicks vied with Austin Carr for player of the year.

Nater -- class of '73. Didn't play in '74 title game against NCS.

Johnson -- class of '77 (as was Washington). Played with Walton in '74 as freshmen.

Meyers -- class of '75. Played two years with walton, started at forward along with Wilkes in '74.

Acymetric
02-15-2008, 11:44 AM
There's more to the game than offense.

Is there anything to suggest that he was a bad defender? In my opinion, even an average defender with his offensive skills would be one of the top players ever, and I could easily see him being THE top player. Not that he definitely is, there's a ton of room for conversation. But especially considering he played for a good while in the NBA and was pretty successful I'd say he could at least play SOME defense. Have you heard otherwise?

gw67
02-15-2008, 11:46 AM
Thanks dk. I went with my memory rather than do a little research.

gw67

BlueintheFace
02-15-2008, 11:56 AM
There's more to the game than offense.

5.1 assists/game
6.4 rebounds/game
Steals- They didn't keep statistics

...but I agree that defense is important. It's a fair point.

The only concern there is, how many smaller basketball players that might appear on this list are known for defense? Big men really have the leg up on defense because of their position on the court and opportunity to guard the rim. Perhaps a good question would be- Since size is such an advantage on both ends of the floor, are big men deserving of a majority of the spots on this list?

blueprofessor
02-15-2008, 12:22 PM
Named so far:

David Robinson
Austin Carr
Ralph Sampson
Tom Gola
Tim Duncan
Elgin Baylor

Which of these was born at Duke Hospital?

Dunno.Rodney Rogers? John Lucas?Who,O F?

As for the greatest college player:
1. Bill Walton
2. Lew Alcindor
3. The Big O
4. Larry Bird
5. Ralph Sampson
6. David Thompson
7. Bill Russell
8. Wilt
9. Jerry Lucas
10. Jerry West
11. Pistol Pete
12. Magic
13. Tom Gola
14. David Robinson
15. Christian Laettner
16. Bill Bradley
17. Patrick Ewing
18. Elvin Hayes
19. George Mikan ( for the old-timers)


Best regards:) :)

barjwr
02-15-2008, 12:41 PM
Dunno.Rodney Rogers? John Lucas?Who,O F?

As for the greatest college player:
1. Bill Walton
2. Lew Alcindor
3. The Big O
4. Larry Bird
5. Ralph Sampson
6. David Thompson
7. Bill Russell
8. Wilt
9. Jerry Lucas
10. Jerry West
11. Pistol Pete
12. Magic
13. Tom Gola
14. David Robinson
15. Christian Laettner
16. Bill Bradley
17. Patrick Ewing
18. Elvin Hayes
19. George Mikan ( for the old-timers)


Best regards:) :)

Just my $0.02, but I'd have to put Danny Manning in there somewhere--maybe instead of David Robinson.

blueprofessor
02-15-2008, 12:50 PM
barjwr---Good point.I guess I was trying hard to forget Kemper Arena ,Kansas City,the Kansas Jayhawks, and the talented Mr. Manning.What a nice trip ruined by one game!
Best regards.:D :D

DBFAN
02-15-2008, 01:16 PM
Didn't Fox Sports Do something like this also, and if I recall they put Christian as the number one player of all time in CBB, mainly for his 10 for 10 (I think) performance against Kentucky, and for his game winning shot against UCONN. I for one have to agree, all of the others you mentioned are all great players, but I do not think you can mention CBB and not think of Laettner. I bet he makes the top 10. Although Pistol Pete may have had the most incredible numbers of any player, Laettner's perfection was very unique.

Tom B.
02-15-2008, 01:26 PM
Good point. I guess I was trying hard to forget Kemper Arena ,Kansas City,the Kansas Jayhawks, and the talented Mr. Manning.What a nice trip ruined by one game!


Ugh -- I'd almost erased that one from my memory. I was a sophomore in high school at the time, and a bona fide Duke fanatic in the making. Duke was coming off an ACC Tournament that ended with a triple-crowning of UNC and an upset of #1 Temple in the regional final (hey Mark Macon, Billy King says hi), and looked to be on a roll. Duke had beaten Kansas in Allen Field House about six weeks earlier, so they had every reason to be confident.

Then Duke went out against Kansas in the Final Four and simply couldn't score, falling behind 18-2. By halftime, they'd cut the Kansas lead to 11, and kept chipping away in the second half. Duke cut the lead to three at one point late in the game, and Kevin Strickland (I think) took a potential game-tying three-pointer that did a full lap around the rim and was halfway down before rolling out. That was the closest Duke ever got. Danny Manning then scored on a tip-in off of a teammate's missed shot (he ended up dropping 25 on Duke, along with 10 rebounds and 6 blocks), and that was pretty much all she wrote.

dkbaseball
02-15-2008, 01:42 PM
Thanks dk. I went with my memory rather than do a little research.

gw67

So did I, but then I had a fixation on those UCLA teams (the soul of a frontrunner, I guess). You didn't happen to see Wooden's last team play at Cole in Dec., '74 did you? I went around and watched their practice before the tournament started -- maybe the biggest thrill I've had in spectator sports, watching Wooden with his 3 by 5 notecards putting them through their paces.

mapei
02-15-2008, 01:43 PM
Dunno.Rodney Rogers? John Lucas?Who,O F?

As for the greatest college player:
1. Bill Walton
2. Lew Alcindor
3. The Big O
4. Larry Bird
5. Ralph Sampson
6. David Thompson
7. Bill Russell
8. Wilt
9. Jerry Lucas
10. Jerry West
11. Pistol Pete
12. Magic
13. Tom Gola
14. David Robinson
15. Christian Laettner
16. Bill Bradley
17. Patrick Ewing
18. Elvin Hayes
19. George Mikan ( for the old-timers)


Best regards:) :)

Wow. Only one player from the last 20 years, and very few from even the last 30. That's a pretty severe indictment of modern college basketball!

Laettner gets my vote for #1.

mgtr
02-15-2008, 02:17 PM
Looking only at performance at the college level, I would accept blueprofessor's list without much change. I definitely agree on the 1-2 order of Walton and then Alcindor. I was on the west coast at the time, and the running joke when Alcindor was a senior went: Who's the number 1 team in the country? UCLA Who's the number 2 team in the country? UCLA freshman team (Walton was on that frosh team, and, for the youngsters, freshmen couldn't play on the varsity team at that time).

dkbaseball
02-15-2008, 02:21 PM
Looking only at performance at the college level, I would accept blueprofessor's list without much change. I definitely agree on the 1-2 order of Walton and then Alcindor. I was on the west coast at the time, and the running joke when Alcindor was a senior went: Who's the number 1 team in the country? UCLA Who's the number 2 team in the country? UCLA freshman team (Walton was on that frosh team, and, for the youngsters, freshmen couldn't play on the varsity team at that time).

The joke was about the Wicks team. Alcindor graduated in '69, Walton entered UCLA in '70.

And let me just add here: Anybody who watched the '86 regional final, Duke v. Navy, would have to be awfully surprised to see David Robinson ranked ahead of Johnny Dawkins as a college player.

killerleft
02-15-2008, 02:29 PM
Maravich not in someone's Top Ten? Christian Laettner not in someone's Top Five? Maravich was his era's college basketball Tiger Woods. He did what he had to do to keep LSU competitive. We'll never know what he could have done in college (or the pros, for that matter) if he had been on a team with more talent. But a guy capable of putting up 44 points any night might have possibly fit in on any team you can think up. Heck, if he'd played for Dean Smith, Dean couldn't hold him under 30 ppg without breaking his leg!

blueprofessor
02-15-2008, 02:32 PM
75--60 in 1965.The varsity team was the defending national champion.
:)Alcindor's line:31 points ,21 rebounds,and many blocked shots.Lucius Allen,Lynn Shackelford, and Kenny Heitz were on the frosh team with Alcindor.:D
Best regards.:)
P.S. That game was the debut of Pauley Pavilion.

dkbaseball
02-15-2008, 02:59 PM
I still must give the nod to the greatest offensive player the NCAA has ever seen- Pistol Pete!

Solid enough arguments on paper, but did you see him play? It seemed like one was watching the Harlem Globtrotters, rather than competitive team basketball. And his LSU teams never rose to the level of "very good." Just on his numbers, I guess I have to put him in the top 25, but right alongside another of the "three M's" from the class of 1970 with almost comparable numbers -- Calvin Murphy.

Maravich was voted one of the top 50 NBA players, but that doesn't necessarily mean he ever played any defense, which was pretty much a lost concept in the NBA during those years.

Olympic Fan
02-15-2008, 04:40 PM
A few points:

-- The four future all-pros who played with Walton were Keith Wilkes and Dave Meyers, who started up front with Walton and sophomores Marques Johnson and Richard Washington. Nater, a second-team All-ABA pick, graduated in 1973. The 1974 backup center Ralph Drollinger was drafted, but decided not to play. Sophomore guard Andre McCarter, a backup in 1974, played in the league. The starting guards -- Greg Lee and Tommy Curtis -- weren't pros, but they were (like Towe) superb college players.

BTW, to win the title, Thompson's team had to consecutively beat teams that included future pros John Lucas-Tom McMillen- Len Elmore; Marvin "Bad News" Barnes; Billy Knight; the UCLA five; and Maurice Lucas.

-- Blueprofessor -- don't mean to be insulting, but if you really think Ralph Sampson ranks ahead of David Thompson, I don't have much respect for your opinion. A lot of facts are debatable -- which is what makes threads like this fun. But c'mon man -- how can you rationally think that? Did only did Thompson win championships and Ralph didn't ... Thompson put up significantly better numbers ... Thompson's teams won more often.

-- Oscar Robertson and Pete Maravich were great players. But when you start talking about the greatEST players, shouldn't there be some dimension of the ability to do more than post stats? It's a fact that Cincinnati got better immediately after Oscar left. Don't you think if you lost one of the three greatest players of all time, his leftovers wouldn't go on to win the next two national titles when he couldn't win one? Pete's LSU teams finished 14-12 (8-10), 13-13 (7-11) before they finished 20-8 in his senior year. And that was when the SEC was Kentucky and a bunch of dwarfs.

Maravich averaged 44 points a game (shooting a career 43.8 percent from the field). Does it put that scoring average into context that the year after he graduated, Mississippi's Johnny Neuman averaged 41 points a game for an Ole Miss team that was as mediocre as Maravich's LSU teams? If you're going to rank Maravich in the top five, don't you have to -- by the same logic -- put Neuman in the top 10? And how about Frank Selvy, who averaged 41.7 at Furman in 1954 (when the Southern with West Virginia and George Washington was as deep a league that the mid-60s SEC).

Again, I think both Oscar and Pete were fine players ... but the very best? I don't have a problem with the big men who won -- Alcindor, Russell, Walton ... but when you talk about college players who were HUGE in their era, I'd suggest you not forget Bill Bradley (now THERE was an all-around player), Cazzie Russell, Ernie D'Gregorio and Jerry Lucas. And, although I never saw him play, Chet Forte must have been pretty darn good in 1957 when he beat out Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor and Lenny Rosenbluth for the concensus player of the year award.

PS -- The answer to the trivia quiz is Austin Carr. Although often mistakenly listed as born in Washington, D.C., he was born in Duke Hospital. His parents were moving from Columbia, SC, to Washington DC when his mother went into labor and Carr was born in Durham.

blueprofessor
02-15-2008, 05:02 PM
Olympic,thanks for the hospital answer.Re: the best players, it is a matter of opinion, unless one wishes to convert his "opinion" to a "fact." I rank Sampson 5th and Thompson 6th. I thought Sampson was a tiny bit more dominant.I did not post the stats to which you refer.There was a tad more talent on Thompson's team and Sampson was a three-time ACC and consensus national player of the year. I accept that you take offense to my opinion and wish to push Thompson in front of Sampson.I bet others would rank Thompson higher as well.
Best regards.:)

g-devil
02-15-2008, 05:28 PM
Watching the way they did the top 25 college football players of all-time, they're bound to produce some head-scratchers. Archie Griffin for Ohio State is the only player in the history of college football to win the Heisman twice and he was ranked #22 all-time. Wow.

That's correct, but a lot of folks like myself don't think he deserved it his senior year.

captmojo
02-15-2008, 05:36 PM
Was this limited to division 1 players?

I kind of like Lloyd(World B) Free, Artis Gilmore, Julius Erving

dkbaseball
02-15-2008, 05:41 PM
Was this limited to division 1 players?

I kind of like Lloyd(World B) Free, Artis Gilmore, Julius Erving

Artis and Doc played in Div. One (recall that Artis transferred to Jacksonville and played in the NCCA finals in '70). Doc flew a little under the radar unti he got to the pros, given that UMass wasn't a big basketball name back then.

Indoor66
02-15-2008, 05:45 PM
Artis and Doc played in Div. One (recall that Artis transferred to Jacksonville and played in the NCCA finals in '70). Doc flew a little under the radar unti he got to the pros, given that UMass wasn't a big basketball name back then.

Though, UMass did defeat UNC with the Dr. playing.

dkbaseball
02-15-2008, 06:20 PM
sophomores Marques Johnson and Richard Washington.

Minor correction: They were freshmen in '73-'74. I agree with the rest of the post, with the possible exception of putting Ernie D Among the immortals. Probably was as clever a passer as we've seen, but I always thought of him as pretty one-dimensional.

My personal list, BTW, has Grant Hill somewhere in the top 20. Two NCAA titles, nearly carried his team to a third. Called by K the best player he's ever coached. As versatile a player as I can remember.

captmojo
02-15-2008, 06:30 PM
I know Gilmore transferred to Jacksonville. He started out at Gardner-Webb(NAIA) when it was juco. I thought UMass was div II when the Doctor was there. I used to see Free play at Guilford. He was amazing.

This rambling sounds like an old poem..........

Roses are red.
Violets are blue.
I like ice cream.
Can you skate?

wiscodevil
02-15-2008, 06:35 PM
At Princeton, under coach Butch van Breda Kolff, Bradley was a three-time All-American and the 1965 National Player of the Year. In each of Bradley's varsity seasons, the Tigers captured the Ivy League championship. During his sophomore season, Bradley averaged 27.3 points and 12.2 rebounds a game while sinking 89.3 percent of his free throws. Among his greatest games was a 41-point effort in an 80-78 loss to heavily favored Michigan in the 1964 Holiday Festival (Bradley fouled out with his team leading 75-63), and a 58-point outburst against Wichita State in the 1965 NCAA tournament, which was a single-game tournament record. In total, Bradley scored 2,503 points at Princeton, averaging 30.2 points per game. In 1965, Bradley became the first basketball player chosen as winner of the James E. Sullivan Award, presented to the United States' top amateur athlete in the country.

As a freshman, Bradley sank 57 successive free throws, a record unmatched by any other player, college or professional.

As a sophomore, he led the league in rebounds, field goals, free throws, and total points, and, when he fouled out after scoring a record-breaking 40 points in an NCAA tournament game with Saint Joseph's in Philadelphia, was given an unprecedented ovation.

In his junior year, he scored 51 points against Harvard, more than the entire opposing team had scored before he was taken out, and his 33.1 points-per-game average that season set an Ivy League record.

In his senior year, as captain, he led Princeton to its highest national basketball ranking ever. The Tigers placed third behind UCLA and Michigan in the NCAA tournament, by virtue of an 118-82 victory over Wichita State in the semi-final consolation game. In that game, Bradley scored 58 points, an NCAA tournament record that still stands today.

Also, he's the subject of one of the best sports books ever written:
http://www.johnmcphee.com/senseofwhereyouare.htm

Indoor66
02-15-2008, 07:31 PM
At Princeton, under coach Butch van Breda Kolff, Bradley was a three-time All-American and the 1965 National Player of the Year. In each of Bradley's varsity seasons, the Tigers captured the Ivy League championship. During his sophomore season, Bradley averaged 27.3 points and 12.2 rebounds a game while sinking 89.3 percent of his free throws. Among his greatest games was a 41-point effort in an 80-78 loss to heavily favored Michigan in the 1964 Holiday Festival (Bradley fouled out with his team leading 75-63), and a 58-point outburst against Wichita State in the 1965 NCAA tournament, which was a single-game tournament record. In total, Bradley scored 2,503 points at Princeton, averaging 30.2 points per game. In 1965, Bradley became the first basketball player chosen as winner of the James E. Sullivan Award, presented to the United States' top amateur athlete in the country.

As a freshman, Bradley sank 57 successive free throws, a record unmatched by any other player, college or professional.

As a sophomore, he led the league in rebounds, field goals, free throws, and total points, and, when he fouled out after scoring a record-breaking 40 points in an NCAA tournament game with Saint Joseph's in Philadelphia, was given an unprecedented ovation.

In his junior year, he scored 51 points against Harvard, more than the entire opposing team had scored before he was taken out, and his 33.1 points-per-game average that season set an Ivy League record.

In his senior year, as captain, he led Princeton to its highest national basketball ranking ever. The Tigers placed third behind UCLA and Michigan in the NCAA tournament, by virtue of an 118-82 victory over Wichita State in the semi-final consolation game. In that game, Bradley scored 58 points, an NCAA tournament record that still stands today.

Also, he's the subject of one of the best sports books ever written:
http://www.johnmcphee.com/senseofwhereyouare.htm

...and he was committed to Duke and went to Princeton at the last minute. And Duke steered Fred Hetzel to Davidson (coached by Duke grad Lefty Drizell) because Bradley was promised the last scholarship available.

mgtr
02-15-2008, 10:19 PM
The joke was about the Wicks team. Alcindor graduated in '69, Walton entered UCLA in '70.

And let me just add here: Anybody who watched the '86 regional final, Duke v. Navy, would have to be awfully surprised to see David Robinson ranked ahead of Johnny Dawkins as a college player.

OK, I messed it up. I relied upon my old age memory instead of checking the fact. I still place Walton ahead of Alcindor in college (though not in the NBA by a long shot!).

IStillHateJimBain
02-15-2008, 10:55 PM
No. 1 has to be Lew Alcindor. He dominated and won like no one else to the point they banned the dunk in college basketball.
No. 2 I'd go with David Thompson. Don't forget State was 27-0 his sophomore year but was banned from postseason play.
No. 3 is Pete Maravich. So what he was a solo act? No one has ever had that kind of offensive skill, ever.
After that.........Russell, Walton, Oscar, Magic, Ewing, Hakeem, Elvin Hayes, Calvin Murphy, Jordan, Bob Lanier, Isaiah Thomas...........I give up. It's too hard to do.

Verga3
02-15-2008, 11:08 PM
Only one I'm really solid on is #1....

1. Pete Maravich (not even close)
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Larry Bird
4. Lew Alcindor
5. David Thompson

greybeard
02-16-2008, 11:32 AM
...and he was committed to Duke and went to Princeton at the last minute. And Duke steered Fred Hetzel to Davidson (coached by Duke grad Lefty Drizell) because Bradley was promised the last scholarship available.

And Cornell beat him his senior year when Cornell guard and later coach K freshman coach Dave Bliss, all 5'10" of him guarded Bradley man up and held him to 15 points the first half. Bradley did not like that too much, and hit everything he shot the second half, scoring another 26, but alas, it was one too short.

I was at that Michigan game at the Garden. Michigan was huge, led by one of its smaller players, a 6' 6" Cazzie Russell. The entire Michigan team looked like a bunch of hapless dorks until Bill fouled out. Those last few minutes probably haunt Gary Walters til today. I was sure that he would hold the fort. He was more than good enough to. Some things just ain't meant to be.

BD80
02-16-2008, 01:39 PM
Most here are at least savvy enough to pay the Big O some lip service, but apparently no one truly remembers Oscar Robertson. He took a mediocre team to the final four three years in a row. He was the national player of the year and lead the nation in scoring all three years he played at Cincinnati. He was strong with the ball and virtually unstoppable - even though opposing teams basically played a box and one, with the box being 4 guys guarding O. He averaged a triple double, averaged 34 ppg, averaged 15 rpg, shot .535 from the field. It was like watching 6'7" NBA all-star Jack Marin when he played in the IM league at Duke (law) after he retired from the NBA.

Oscar faced unfathomable racism throughout his college career. His high school team was THE team the "Hoosiers" beat in the championship game. When his team won the championship his senior year - they were forced to hold the celebration outside of town for fear that "the blacks" would tear up the town. He was also a forward and point guard for the 1960 Olympic Gold medal team: 12 college players that dominated the Olympics - averaging more than 40 points more than their opponents.

This is my vote for Oscar. He was as fun to watch as Pistol Pete and was as dominant as Lou Alcinder. Pete could do absolutely anything with the ball (his bounce pass through the legs of a RUNNING defender is second only to The Shot), but Pistol wasn't the physical presence that O was. Even Alcinder didn't dominate a game like Oscar. The others are worthy, but if you have seen Oscar play in college, he would be your first choice in picking a team with your mortgage payment on the line.

dkbaseball
02-16-2008, 01:52 PM
His high school team was THE team the "Hoosiers" beat in the championship game.

Minor correction: Milan High beat Crispus Attucks High and (sophomore) Robertson in the finals of the semi-state, i.e, the round of eight. In the finals they beat Muncie Central. I agree with you that the Big O isn't getting quite enough love in this thread. Maybe the best all-around player ever.

captmojo
02-16-2008, 02:21 PM
Most here are at least savvy enough to pay the Big O some lip service, but apparently no one truly remembers Oscar Robertson. He took a mediocre team to the final four three years in a row. He was the national player of the year and lead the nation in scoring all three years he played at Cincinnati. He was strong with the ball and virtually unstoppable - even though opposing teams basically played a box and one, with the box being 4 guys guarding O. He averaged a triple double, averaged 34 ppg, averaged 15 rpg, shot .535 from the field. It was like watching 6'7" NBA all-star Jack Marin when he played in the IM league at Duke (law) after he retired from the NBA.

Oscar faced unfathomable racism throughout his college career. His high school team was THE team the "Hoosiers" beat in the championship game. When his team won the championship his senior year - they were forced to hold the celebration outside of town for fear that "the blacks" would tear up the town. He was also a forward and point guard for the 1960 Olympic Gold medal team: 12 college players that dominated the Olympics - averaging more than 40 points more than their opponents.

This is my vote for Oscar. He was as fun to watch as Pistol Pete and was as dominant as Lou Alcinder. Pete could do absolutely anything with the ball (his bounce pass through the legs of a RUNNING defender is second only to The Shot), but Pistol wasn't the physical presence that O was. Even Alcinder didn't dominate a game like Oscar. The others are worthy, but if you have seen Oscar play in college, he would be your first choice in picking a team with your mortgage payment on the line.

Alas, I'm not old enough to remember The Big O's days in school but I do recall his uncanny abilities to hit the basket from nearly anywhere on the floor for the old Cincinnati Royals. Ah, the old days, when I really cared to watch the NBA.

BobbyFan
02-16-2008, 02:23 PM
As for the greatest college player:
1. Bill Walton
2. Lew Alcindor
3. The Big O
4. Larry Bird
5. Ralph Sampson
6. David Thompson
7. Bill Russell
8. Wilt
9. Jerry Lucas
10. Jerry West
11. Pistol Pete
12. Magic
13. Tom Gola
14. David Robinson
15. Christian Laettner
16. Bill Bradley
17. Patrick Ewing
18. Elvin Hayes
19. George Mikan ( for the old-timers)


I would put Alcindor at #1 and Walton #2. I also think you have Sampson too high. And I would find Duncan a spot on this list. But nice list - I agree with most of your inclusions and their general placements.

dball
02-16-2008, 03:23 PM
A few points:

-- Oscar Robertson and Pete Maravich were great players. But when you start talking about the greatEST players, shouldn't there be some dimension of the ability to do more than post stats? It's a fact that Cincinnati got better immediately after Oscar left. Don't you think if you lost one of the three greatest players of all time, his leftovers wouldn't go on to win the next two national titles when he couldn't win one? Pete's LSU teams finished 14-12 (8-10), 13-13 (7-11) before they finished 20-8 in his senior year. And that was when the SEC was Kentucky and a bunch of dwarfs.

Again, I think both Oscar and Pete were fine players ... but the very best?

Maravich was a good rebounder for a guard and he averaged over 5 assists a game in an era when assists were not so easily handed out. Because of his incredible passing skills, teammates often bobbled chances to score. Over time they did become more adept at expecting (if not handling) the ball as they didn't want it bouncing off their faces. If you attended a college game that Maravich played in, there was a 1 in 3 chance he would score 50 that night (with no 3 point line).

While you point out LSU's team records in the Pistol years, you fail to mention that the team was 3-20 the year he played freshman ball so the team actually improved quite a bit with his addition. There is also a direct correlation to the number of points Pete scored to how many games they won. Mainly, with the teams he was on, if Pete didn't score a LOT, they didn't win. They needed him to score and score he did... often while triple teamed.

Did you know several of our best players have won Oscars? When Brand, Williams, Battier and Redick look at their College Player of the Year trophies, they probably have an idea that the Big O was one of the greatest players ever...the trophy is name after Robertson. Not including Oscar in a discussion of the greatest players ever would be unimaginable. Much like including Ernie D. C'mon.

Verga3
02-16-2008, 07:41 PM
With total humility.

I have no familiarity with Maravich with regard to direct viewing of his play. I begin with college basketball in 1982. I understand he scored a bunch of points, but from what I have heard, he also took a tremendous amount of shots and monopolized the ball a great deal. Would he have shot, scored and dominated the ball as much with UCLA, or would he simply have been a very skilled cog in a dominant machine?


I realize there is a point of view that would account for defensive skill and team accomplishments, but if we are talking about the best basketball player ever in college.....I still say it's Pete. His offensive scoring stats (career points and average) are goofy good and may never be broken. If anyone never saw him play in college, take a look. He was pretty good.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8qUZILi8IM

mgtr
02-16-2008, 09:30 PM
Interesting to me that absolutely nobody mentions Rick Barry. He was a difficult guy to like, and definitely better as a pro than a college player, but he did OK at Miami.

Mudge
02-16-2008, 11:05 PM
I realize there is a point of view that would account for defensive skill and team accomplishments, but if we are talking about the best basketball player ever in college.....I still say it's Pete. His offensive scoring stats (career points and average) are goofy good and may never be broken. If anyone never saw him play in college, take a look. He was pretty good.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8qUZILi8IM

This stuff from several different posters about Maravich being the best ever just amazes me... doesn't winning count for anything? Maravich never won anything (other than scoring titles) either college or pro. Don't you think if Alcindor had had his Dad coaching him, and telling everybody on his team that "Lew needs to get 40 shots every night", that Alcindor would have averaged 40 points a game?

Alcindor's hook shot was unstoppable in both college and the pros-- Alcindor changed the NBA game into the physical shoving match that it became after 1970, BECAUSE there was no other way to defend him in the low post. Go back and read up on what guys like Bob Lanier, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld (some pretty good Hall-of-Famers) have to say about trying to guard Alcindor without fouling him-- there was no way to do it without pushing and shoving him away from the basket, as he was in the process of receiving the ball and shooting the hook... we take it for granted now, that guys will "battle for position" and "push a post player off the low block"-- before Alcindor, post players didn't do that, and it wasn't legal, but after Alcindor came into the league, refs began to allow it, because it was almost unfair for any of the other centers to try to defend him, without getting physical with him.

If you don't believe me, take a look at the kind of post defense played in an old NBA game film from the '60's, and then look at the defense by the mid-'70's-- even Russell vs. Chamberlain looked nothing like Lanier on Alcindor. Gradually, Alcindor bulked up to be able to hold his position and deal with the aggressive physical attempts to throw him off his shot, but make no mistake, the game was allowed to change, to allow overmatched centers to compensate against him. Imagine if the NBA had let people push and shove Jordan as he drove to the basket every time (instead of calling a foul on his opponents, if they even breathed on him, which is what the NBA really did). Do you still think people would be talking about Jordan as the Greatest Ever?

Walton wasn't anywhere in Alcindor's league as an offensive player (though he was an excellent passer). Moreover, Alcindor's college teams (which is what we're talking about here) lost one game in his 3 varsity years, they won 3 NCAA championships (easily, I should add), and Alcindor was the player of the year all 3 years. Walton's senior team lost several games (not just the game to NC State), and won only 2 championships, finishing with a whimper, not a bang. I might put Russell ahead of Walton too, for his back-to-back champions (with only one loss).

As for those who think Robertson was over-rated and a "stat hog", I don't even know where to start with them. Robertson could (and would, if asked) have scored more than Maravich-- he was a far superior physical specimen to Maravich (6'5", 198), with every bit of the ball skills of Maravich-- but unlike those who mistakenly contend that Maravich did much to enhance the play of his teammates (he didn't), Robertson DID do a lot to make his teammates better, and spread the scoring around. There's a reason why Robertson AVERAGED double figures in points, rebounds, and assists over his first 5 pro seasons (and nearly for his career)- he was a 6'5", 220 pound point guard, in an era when many teams (college and pro) were playing with 6'7" or 6'8" centers weighing 210-230 pounds, while most PGs were ~6'0"-- there was nobody with his combination of physical and ball skills at any level. Maravich wasn't even in Robertson's league for assists or rebounds. With Robertson, you got JJ Redick, Shelden Williams, and Bobby Hurley all rolled into one special package-- with Maravich, all you got was the scoring. Ask people who played and coached in that era who was the better player-- nobody (except some SC bigots) who played against both in the NBA is ever going to tell you that Maravich was better than Robertson, either in college or the pros. Robertson scored as much as he needed to to win (~34 ppg for college; when you see that he only scored 24ppg in HS, against lesser competition, you realize that he could have basically scored as much as he wanted to)-- not as much as his ego (or his Dad/Coach's ego) needed him to score... winning is what matters, not how many you score.

Robertson's college teams (Cincinnati had no tradition of excellence before he came), went 79-9, went to the Final Four his last two years, finishing 3rd both times, and he was college basketball's leading scorer and college player of the year all 3 years on varsity. Maravich's teams went 49-35, and went to the NIT one year, and he was player of the year only in his senior season. Robertson was NBA rookie of the year, and later, NBA MVP; Maravich was never either. Robertson was the point guard of the 1960 US Olympic Gold medal winning team and Milwaukee's only NBA championship team; Maravich won nothing. Robertson was 9x 1st Team All-NBA and 2x 2nd Team in 14 seasons; Maravich was 2x 1st Team and 2x 2nd Team in 10 seasons. At 35, Robertson led Milwaukee to the NBA Finals, losing in 7 games to the Celtics; the next season, with the same team, including Alcindor/Jabbar (but no Robertson), Milwaukee went 38-44-- still think Robertson didn't make his teammates better? If Jordan had been ineligible as a frosh (like Robertson), would you say that he must not have been much good since UNC won two championships after he left and two before he got there (and noting that James Worthy was the dominant player on UNC's '82 championship team, followed by Sam Perkins, and Jimmy Black, with Jordan not even in the top three of importance on that team.)

Channing
02-16-2008, 11:44 PM
I wasnt alive to watch the players from the 70s and earlier play college ball. All I have to go on is video footage of different games. I have not seen footage of anyone who was more fun to watch than Pistol Pete. He was a wizard with the basketball. It was like a yoyo was attached to his hand.

gw67
02-17-2008, 08:28 AM
Mudge - I pretty much agree with your assessments. I have one very small nit. Oscar was a forward on the Cincinnati teams but the ball often went to him on the outside so he sometimes served like a modern day PG. He, Thompson and West would often post up close to the basket. I was lucky enough to see all three play in college and I saw West play a couple of times in high school when my family lived in South Charleston, WV. West is one of my very favorite players but, IMO, Thompson and the Big O are the greatest players that I have ever seen play in person. Both were unstoppable on offense. Thompson used his quickness and unreal leaping ability to get by or over the opposition while Oscar used his strength, great ballhandling and wonderful shotmaking to score points. Both had terrific touch on their shots and great court awareness. Thompson was a superb defensive player and shot blocker while Oscar seemed to have eyes in the back of his head and was a great passer. Both are equals in my eyes and my memories, and are among the top five college players of all time.

gw67

blueprofessor
02-17-2008, 12:52 PM
:) Coach Wooden stated that Walton was the "best" player he ever had.He was a terrific shooter, as he had a beautiful,accurate high-post jumper, a short hook,a bank shot jumper, and attacked the basket with great quickness.An excellent dribbler,Walton dominated defenders 15 feet from the basket and left them a step behind as he exploded down the lane.His hands were incredible and he had fast, polished low post and baseline moves(where he could pull-up to hit a jumper off the board) .Alcindor was not as good a jump shooter in college as Walton, was not as quick away from the basket,was a mediocre dribbler and inferior passer to Walton.Walton's defense was outstanding and he ran like a SF.The great Lew Alcindor had gifts , but they were behind Walton's rebounding, quickness, passing,hands, and shot variation.Walton's use of the backboard reminds of a very tall Sam Jones---he was lethal 12 feet and in.Alcindor was most effective 8 feet and in from the basket.Both were the very best players,I think,all time in college.Alcindor ,as Abdul-Jabbar, in the pros knew he needed a money shot and further refined the sky-hook--which was nearly unstoppable.He used the sky hook out to 12 feet with accuracy.
:)In the pros,in his twilight a 34 year old Chamberlain with 2 bad knees was very effective against Jabbar who was 24 the first of 4 years they competed beginning in 1969-70.Chamberlain was a better rebounder and defender despite the age and health deficiency.If memory serves, Jabbar's FG% was considerably below his season stats when Chamberlain played him. Chamberlain was able to block the sky hook---I never saw anyone else do it.There is no doubt that a young,healthy Chamberlain would have been Jabbar's bete noire and worse. Even in 1969, Wilt was more athletic,faster,as tall, and considerably stronger .Even in 1969-70, before his severe injury, Wilt was averaging 27 points a game on 56.8% shooting and 18.4 rebounds a game (Jabbar,14.5 rpg, 28.8 ppg and 51.8% from the floor,the lowest until 51.3 % in 74-75 and
47.5% in 88-89).
:) As a matter of fact, without an injured Jerry West and Elgin Baylor (ruptured Achilles tendon), a 35 year-old Chamberlain coming back from a severe knee injury and operation nearly fought Jabbar to a draw(Wilt dominated games 2 and 3) in the 1971 playoffs as the eventual NBA
Champion Milwaukee Bucks beat the Lakers.The Milwaukee Bucks fans gave Wilt a standing ovation.
Best regards:)

Mudge
02-17-2008, 06:47 PM
:) Coach Wooden stated that Walton was the "best" player he ever had.He was a terrific shooter, as he had a beautiful,accurate high-post jumper, a short hook,a bank shot jumper, and attacked the basket with great quickness.An excellent dribbler,Walton dominated defenders 15 feet from the basket and left them a step behind as he exploded down the lane.His hands were incredible and he had fast, polished low post and baseline moves(where he could pull-up to hit a jumper off the board) .Alcindor was not as good a jump shooter in college as Walton, was not as quick away from the basket,was a mediocre dribbler and inferior passer to Walton.Walton's defense was outstanding and he ran like a SF.The great Lew Alcindor had gifts , but they were behind Walton's rebounding, quickness, passing,hands, and shot variation.Walton's use of the backboard reminds of a very tall Sam Jones---he was lethal 12 feet and in.Alcindor was most effective 8 feet and in from the basket.Both were the very best players,I think,all time in college.Alcindor ,as Abdul-Jabbar, in the pros knew he needed a money shot and further refined the sky-hook--which was nearly unstoppable.He used the sky hook out to 12 feet with accuracy.
:)In the pros,in his twilight a 34 year old Chamberlain with 2 bad knees was very effective against Jabbar who was 24 the first of 4 years they competed beginning in 1969-70.Chamberlain was a better rebounder and defender despite the age and health deficiency.If memory serves, Jabbar's FG% was considerably below his season stats when Chamberlain played him. Chamberlain was able to block the sky hook---I never saw anyone else do it.There is no doubt that a young,healthy Chamberlain would have been Jabbar's bete noire and worse. Even in 1969, Wilt was more athletic,faster,as tall, and considerably stronger .Even in 1969-70, before his severe injury, Wilt was averaging 27 points a game on 56.8% shooting and 18.4 rebounds a game (Jabbar,14.5 rpg, 28.8 ppg and 51.8% from the floor,the lowest until 51.3 % in 74-75 and
47.5% in 88-89).
:) As a matter of fact, without an injured Jerry West and Elgin Baylor (ruptured Achilles tendon), a 35 year-old Chamberlain coming back from a severe knee injury and operation nearly fought Jabbar to a draw(Wilt dominated games 2 and 3) in the 1971 playoffs as the eventual NBA
Champion Milwaukee Bucks beat the Lakers.The Milwaukee Bucks fans gave Wilt a standing ovation.
Best regards:)

If your argument is that Chamberlain at his best may have been or was better than Alcindor, I am not prepared to argue with you-- it may very well be true, and I would agree that Chamberlain was a more dominant physical specimen than Alcindor. I don't think Chamberlain ever had the one shot that was so automatic, that you couldn't stop him without fouling him, as Alcindor did. (Obviously, UNC with a 6'9" center, figured out how to limit Chamberlain's touches and baskets in the 1957 final.) I think O'Neal (at his best) is a better comparison for Chamberlain. However, this discussion is about the best COLLEGE player ever, and from that perspective, I think Chamberlain only played one season at Kansas, and Dean Smith couldn't give Wilt enough help to get over the hump against UNC, so Chamberlain can't be considered to have had the best college career.

As for Walton vs. Alcindor, I think their comparative college results speak for themselves (Alcindor's were better), but if you want Wooden to speak on it, the most telling comment I remember from him was "No team with Lewis on it should ever lose." His point was, that if a coach had half a clue, there is no way that a team with Alcindor on the team should ever lose the championship (though he may have meant even a game-- which brings up the question of what did Wooden do wrong against Houston in 1968-- but Alcindor had been poked in the eye the game before that game, and was not really 100% against Hayes-- as he proved later that year in the final). Wooden never said anything like that about Walton. I know I wouldn't have taken Walton over Alcindor at any time in the pros or college, from what I saw.

I also know that Alcindor was the starting center and the most important player (as Magic Johnson will tell you) on 6 NBA championship teams (and several more runner-ups), while Walton was the starter and most important player on 1, and a role player on another, and no runner-ups. The idea that Walton ever (with both knees wrapped heavily even in college, foot problems that started in college, a back injury that caused him to miss some games in college, and a propensity for smoking weed) ever ran like a small forward makes me laugh. The guy could barely hobble around in the NBA, after about 3-4 years in the league, and I don't recall him exactly destroying Tom Burleson (not Mr. Mobility himself) in their two matchups in 1974 (in the first one, Walton got into foul trouble and only played half the game; in the second one, he outscored Burleson 28 to 20, but he never dominated... but Burleson was 7'2.5", which was at least 2" taller than Walton (like Alcindor), and since Walton didn't have the automatic hook that Alcindor did, Burleson gave Walton problems. Walton was a better passer than Alcindor-- that is all. Alcindor was taller, more agile, could jump higher, and could block shots higher than Walton. Walton did have excellent timing on shotblocking, but he couldn't get up anywhere near as high as Alcindor.

blueprofessor
02-17-2008, 08:15 PM
Mudge--Thank you for your post which agreed with some primary assertions.
However,respectfully, there are some points for you to consider as it appears you have overlooked some matters.
1.Read the entire thread next time.No one ever suggested Wilt was better in college than Walton or Alcindor.Nobody!Wilt was great,though.
2.I will take Wooden's word on the Walton-Alcindor preference.Walton.
3.Regarding your rejoinder that "this is a college discussion",I wholeheartedly agree!! Please read your 11:05 pm post.You, Mudge, devoted a long paragraph to Jabbar as a pro and how others (including Wilt) played him.Wilt was a phenomenal athlete at Kansas(track and field).Check it out.O'Neal could not carry Wilt's jock strap as an athlete.Wilt had a nice fade-away ,a quick finger roll, a powerful dunk, led the league in assists,shot a high %, and was the greatest rebounder of all-time.On the majority of his teams,he had less support than his principal rivals.
I merely responded to YOUR introduction of the pro basketball discussion in this COLLEGE thread to explain that Wilt was tremendous against Jabbar even though he was 10 years older and in
the twilight of his career ,with 2 bad knees.
4. Regardless of the loss in the 1957 NCAA championship game, Wilt was only the 2nd person at that time from the losing team to be named MVP.He had 23 points and 14 rebounds.As one teammate stated,"The rest of us didn't play worth a damn."
5.You cite Walton as a PRO,when he could barely walk.I spoke about the collegian Walton's quickness and speed(yes, as fast as a then small forward in his college prime----of course Wilt ran a 4.4 40 and a sub 12 second 100--some big men can run--so he was as fast as a SF,too).Are you dismissive of Wilt's speed and quickness ,too?

From your sardonic reference to Walton's speed,I must assume you did not see him in college and/or you did not read the thread to discern, indeed, that the discussion referred to "greatest" COLLEGE players.
7. By the way, Walton makes the top 50 NBA players of all-time. In his prime, he was one of the top 6 NBA centers of all-time.
8. I saw Walton and Jabbar many times in college. It was poetry in motion.Yet they were very different players. Check them out in college.
Best regards.:)

dkbaseball
02-17-2008, 09:20 PM
Wooden wouldn't be quite that undiplomatic. I believe I read what you're talking about, and while he might have called Walton the "best" player, I'm pretty sure he called Alcindor the "most valuable." Walton had a skill set and intensity on the court that would make a coach love him, but Kareem was more of an unstoppable force. Not much to choose between them, IMO.

Since I seem to be a self-designated factoid monitor in this thread, I have to point out that Kareem lost a game in his senior year, as well as his junior year. Walton played on two undefeated teams.

mgtr
02-17-2008, 10:36 PM
I didn't see Russell play in college, but I know his record at USF. I didn't see Chamberlain play in college (except films of the infamous 100 point game). But I did see both Alcindor and Walton play in college, and I thought that Walton was the better player. In other words, if we are picking teams and I go first, I pick Walton, not Alcindor. Now, when we shift to pros, it is reversed with no question. Jabbar is simply dominant, and Walton is very much off and on. Because of physical problems, develops the rep as a complainer and malingerer.
However, since this thread is about college, I pick Walton.

blueprofessor
02-18-2008, 08:26 AM
Wooden wouldn't be quite that undiplomatic. I believe I read what you're talking about, and while he might have called Walton the "best" player, I'm pretty sure he called Alcindor the "most valuable." Walton had a skill set and intensity on the court that would make a coach love him, but Kareem was more of an unstoppable force. Not much to choose between them, IMO.

Since I seem to be a self-designated factoid monitor in this thread, I have to point out that Kareem lost a game in his senior year, as well as his junior year. Walton played on two undefeated teams.
:) dkbaseball---In They Call Me Coach, Wooden does in fact state who his best players were. It does not come across as undiplomatic.For instance, he called Walton his best player (3-time Naismith winner,20.3 ppg,65% shooting %,and 15.7 rpg), Alcindor his mvp ,Walt Hazzard as his best ever ball-handler and passing guard, Goodrich as one of his greatest shooters ever, Mike Warren as smart a player as he ever had,and Henry Bibby and Dick Banton as his best ever defensive guards.Wooden cited Keith Erickson as one of the very finest athletes he coached.
:) Your assessment of Wooden's distinction between the two centers ,from what I recall in the book, is correct.Of course, eyewitnesses like the Santa Clara coach Carroll Williams,who also played against Bill Russell, did state about the redhead,"He's the best college basketball player I've ever seen.He's better at both ends of the court than Lew Alcindor was.He dominates like no college player in the history of the game.And that includes Bill Russell,whom I played against."
Wouldn't it be a pleasure to have to choose between the two?
:) BTW, Russell had the benefit in college of the dunk and offensive goaltending.Both were legal.Defensive goaltending was ruled illegal in 1945(Kurland rule). Offensive goaltending was no longer permitted in 1957 and dunking was not permitted(Alcindor rule) beginning in the 1967-68 season until the 1976-77 season.So Alcindor only had 1 varsity year when the dunk was available; Walton had none. Can you imagine what those two would have done with legal offensive goaltending and dunking during their college careers? Of course the legal dunk may have impeded to some extent the development of their awesome shooting skills.
I have really enjoyed the various posters' different perspectives on players in this thread, as well as their passionate opinions.Great reading--thanks.
Best regards.:)

Mudge
02-18-2008, 10:25 AM
Mudge--Thank you for your post which agreed with some primary assertions.
However,respectfully, there are some points for you to consider as it appears you have overlooked some matters.
1.Read the entire thread next time.No one ever suggested Wilt was better in college than Walton or Alcindor.Nobody!Wilt was great,though.
2.I will take Wooden's word on the Walton-Alcindor preference.Walton.
3.Regarding your rejoinder that "this is a college discussion",I wholeheartedly agree!! Please read your 11:05 pm post.You, Mudge, devoted a long paragraph to Jabbar as a pro and how others (including Wilt) played him.Wilt was a phenomenal athlete at Kansas(track and field).Check it out.O'Neal could not carry Wilt's jock strap as an athlete.Wilt had a nice fade-away ,a quick finger roll, a powerful dunk, led the league in assists,shot a high %, and was the greatest rebounder of all-time.On the majority of his teams,he had less support than his principal rivals.
I merely responded to YOUR introduction of the pro basketball discussion in this COLLEGE thread to explain that Wilt was tremendous against Jabbar even though he was 10 years older and in
the twilight of his career ,with 2 bad knees.
4. Regardless of the loss in the 1957 NCAA championship game, Wilt was only the 2nd person at that time from the losing team to be named MVP.He had 23 points and 14 rebounds.As one teammate stated,"The rest of us didn't play worth a damn."
5.You cite Walton as a PRO,when he could barely walk.I spoke about the collegian Walton's quickness and speed(yes, as fast as a then small forward in his college prime----of course Wilt ran a 4.4 40 and a sub 12 second 100--some big men can run--so he was as fast as a SF,too).Are you dismissive of Wilt's speed and quickness ,too?

From your sardonic reference to Walton's speed,I must assume you did not see him in college and/or you did not read the thread to discern, indeed, that the discussion referred to "greatest" COLLEGE players.
7. By the way, Walton makes the top 50 NBA players of all-time. In his prime, he was one of the top 6 NBA centers of all-time.
8. I saw Walton and Jabbar many times in college. It was poetry in motion.Yet they were very different players. Check them out in college.
Best regards.:)

I read the (whole) thread, and I saw all of them play. I know you weren't trying to say that Chamberlain was the better college player, since you never stated as much; I simply acknowledged your point that Chamberlain may have been a better player as a pro than Alcindor, then reverted to focusing on who was the better college player. I would never be dismissive of Chamberlain's speed and quickness. I am dismissive of Walton's speed at any time in his career- he had both knees wrapped heavily in college; he missed time in college with a bad back, and he began to suffer foot problems in college, which eventually crippled him in the pros-- he was never, IMO, a fleet player. I'd be happy to play your UCLA team with Walton in his prime, versus my UCLA team with Alcindor in his prime, and see who wins a one-game championship or a seven-game series-- I like my chances far better than yours, no matter what diplomatic statement Wooden made in his book. Wooden did better with Alcindor than he did with Walton, and I think I would too; certainly, Wooden's comment to the effect that "no coach should lose with Alcindor on his team" tells me who he would have picked, if forced to choose.

I mention O'Neal as a comparison to Chamberlain on pure physical gifts, not on refined basketball skills-- I agree Chamberlain far surpasses O'Neal there. But on sheer physical skills (size, power, speed, jumping ability, explosiveness), I don't think anyone compares to O'Neal. Even Walton today regularly states that no one could guard O'Neal one-on-one, because he was just too powerful for any one man. You have to remember that Shaq outweighs Chamberlain by about 75-100 pounds (250-275 vs. 325-350). Even Chamberlain would be physically overwhelmed by O'Neal. I'll never forget seeing O'Neal (in a conference final playoff vs. Portland) take his off-arm and hook it around Arvidas Sabonis (7'3" and somewhere north of 300 pounds) and lift him off the ground and move him out of the way, so that he could drive around Sabonis with the ball in his other hand-- illegal, but impressive. Sabonis was big and powerful (bigger than Chamberlain), but he was no match for O'Neal's power and size. O'Neal was apparently still able last year, at age 34 and over 350 pounds, to jump over the trainer's table in the Miami Heat training room, while standing next to it-- a vertical leap of between 3-4 feet-- this is Darrell Griffith/David Thompson territory, for a guy who weighs as much or more than both of those guys put together... don't dismiss O'Neal's raw physical athleticism. Christian Laettner once told me that the other thing people forget about O'Neal is how wide he is through the hips-- Laettner said there was no way to get around him to front him consistently, because O'Neal's butt was as wide as a bus seat... Chamberlain would have had this problem, just like everybody else; then when the O'Neal got the ball down low, he was simply too strong for anyone in there.

blueprofessor
02-18-2008, 12:49 PM
Mudge--Thanks for your thoughtful discussion about O'Neal and Wilt. Wilt,with a 50" vertical , tremendous strenghth, and great speed ( a very quick starter and a 4.4 40) would have made life difficult for O'Neal. O'Neal would not have been as successful against a young ,incredibly strong Wilt at "butting" him (heh,heh) in the low post.Chamberlain could have run O'Neal into the ground, even before O'Neal's mid-career when he was not in shape.Moreover, Wilt had outstanding and quick feet(he was a track,field, and volleyball star).
:) As for the collegian Walton, he was quick and fast .He only missed 3 of 90 games at UCLA.I thought he was fast and quick then and I have not let the foot and ankle problems(not knees) in the pros obscure that college speed and quickness.
:) I do not know who would win that hypothetical matchup between team Redhead and team Mudge/Alcindor.You are very confident.I would have confidence that Walton, through maximum effort, would be totally spent at the end,win or lose.I bet Alcindor would be,too.I stopped such gasconades as the captain of my prep-school fball and bball teams and the occasion of the de rigeur exhortation to an in-sight victory.After the first 2 or so in each sport led to losses,my teammates told me to shut up. My son,a varsity tennis player as a soph, learned that lesson well--and,Mudge, I could relive my embarrassments again from the '60s!Ugh.Now my son was about to feel a ton of pain.He watched the other kid warm up.Having a day before won a huge match in 2 sets, my son remarked,"Dad, I'll take this kid in 40 minutes!"Two hours later he came home with a face as red as a beet.He was pissed.I smiled and asked(a parent had already called to tell me it was a helluva match just then entering the 3rd set)
how it had taken so long. My smile was a little impish ,but it was the normal smile.He learned his lesson.Now he says (and it is true at their level---they are the best program in North Florida and go on long trips to play other top programs) that he will play with confidence and to win and that he hopes he wins.....
So, I hope that both teams play great and that the better team wins.It could be your team ...or it could be....
Best and thanks for the really interesting observations!:)

Classof06
02-18-2008, 12:55 PM
That's correct, but a lot of folks like myself don't think he deserved it his senior year.

Haha, as if that's the first Heisman presentation people didn't uniformily agree on. He's still the only 2x winner, baby...

Mudge
02-18-2008, 07:42 PM
Mudge--Thanks for your thoughtful discussion about O'Neal and Wilt. Wilt,with a 50" vertical , tremendous strenghth, and great speed ( a very quick starter and a 4.4 40) would have made life difficult for O'Neal.
:) As for the collegian Walton, he was quick and fast .He only missed 3 of 90 games at UCLA.I thought he was fast and quick then and I have not let the foot and ankle problems(not knees) in the pros obscure that college speed and quickness.


Two notes:
I'm not saying you're wrong, but are you sure about a 50" vertical leap for Chamberlain? That's higher than I have seen advertised for any other player, including the really famous leapers like David Thompson (44") and Darrell Griffith (48")-- is it likely that Chamberlain was a better jumper, at 7'1", than players who were primarily known for their leaping ability? I did know about his other athletic pursuits, as I actually saw Chamberlain play pro volleyball in a short-lived pro team league, but I assumed most of his ability there came from his superior height and coordination.

As for Walton and his speed, every picture that I have seen of him playing for UCLA shows him with both of his knees wrapped-- that can't be because they felt fine. Moreover, most accounts of the games in his senior season talk about him missing games for a recurring back problem-- perhaps it was only three games, but I don't think he would have been ghosting up and down the floor like Keith Wilkes, if his back was bothering him. Finally, it was an open secret that he liked to smoke marijuana, which doesn't tend to enhance your aerobic capacity (and thus your ability to run up and down the floor). I have a hard time thinking he was more agile and athletic than Alcindor, who went on to earn a black belt in martial arts (karate, IIRC), and also to study yoga for many years... admittedly, those occurred after UCLA, but they say something about Alcindor's agility and coordination.

topps coach
02-18-2008, 07:55 PM
I do not know if Wilt ever had his vertical measured but it was impressive.He however weighed between 315 to 325 lbs and was one of the strongest men to ever play BB. Wilt was taller, quicker, stronger and more skilled than Shaq. I think that Wilt would have beem Shaqs worst nightmare.

Mudge
02-18-2008, 08:07 PM
I do not know if Wilt ever had his vertical measured but it was impressive.He however weighed between 315 to 325 lbs and was one of the strongest men to ever play BB. Wilt was taller, quicker, stronger and more skilled than Shaq. I think that Wilt would have beem Shaqs worst nightmare.

He most certainly did not-- his biography on the NBA stats page lists him at 275 pounds, and I would venture (looking at photos of him from his battles with Russell) that he weighed considerably less than 275 in his early years in the league-- I'd bet something more towards 250 pounds at the most.

Johnboy
02-18-2008, 08:18 PM
Incredible as it sounds, Shaq has the higher free throw percentage between him and Chamberlain.

I agree with the sentiment, however, that the Big Dipper would have dominated Shaq. If you are comparing players different eras, I'm not sure it's fair to compare weight - how do you account for modern training methods?

Indoor66
02-18-2008, 09:04 PM
He most certainly did not-- his biography on the NBA stats page lists him at 275 pounds, and I would venture (looking at photos of him from his battles with Russell) that he weighed considerably less than 275 in his early years in the league-- I'd bet something more towards 250 pounds at the most.


Wiki on Wilt:

"The 7 foot 1 inch Chamberlain, who weighed 250 lb as a rookie[2] before bulking up to 275 lb and eventually over 300 lb with the Lakers,[1] played the center position and is one of the greatest and most dominant players in the history of the NBA.

...In his early years, Chamberlain was not interested in basketball, because he thought it was "a game for sissies".[8] Instead, he was an avid track and field athlete: as a youth, he high jumped 6 feet, 6 inches, ran the 440 yards in 49.0 seconds and the 880 yards in 1:58.3, put the shot 53 feet, 4 inches, and broad jumped 22 feet.

...As he did at Overbrook, Chamberlain again showcased his diverse athletic talent. He ran the 100-yard dash in 10.9 seconds, threw the shotput 56 feet, triple jumped more than 50 feet, and won the high jump in the Big Eight track and field championships three straight years."

Indoor66
02-18-2008, 09:31 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QmhTWmAaBc

blueprofessor
02-18-2008, 10:42 PM
:)The always astute Indoor66 listed some of Wilt's track and field college achievements and records.I had posted some in another thread.
Chamberlain was one of the most incredible athletes of the 20th century.He would have been one of the top decathletes in the world as he blended strength, speed, and endurance as only a few could.In another thread about hops,I wrote about the photo of Wilt(after taking a Guy Rodgers fast break pass) stuffing the ball with his arms almost fully extended above the rim---the highest I have ever seen anyone jump on a court.
Here is the link to his 50" vertical by USA Today's NBA beat writer on the Golden State Warriors Official Website. Wilt had played in San Fran 1962-63,'63-'64, and part of '64-'65 before returning to Philly.
:) As for Walton---just because Sandy Koufax soaked his elbow in ice his last two years( ( perhaps a prophylactic measure but in his case a sign of significant problems to come) did not prevent him from being the dominant pitcher in baseball those years.Walton was fast and quick with or without kneepads or wraps.I saw the redhead run in college games. Wilt,by the way, wore kneepads (wraps sometimes) and he may have been the fastest center ever.Drafted overall number 1 in the NBA draft in 1974,Walton's debilitating injuries came later in the pro ranks.In fact ,he was an NBA All-Star in 1977 and 1978 and the league's MVP in 1978.THEN came his debilitating injuries He was at a snail's pace compared to college by 1981, but still able to play well against other top centers in the NBA and he won the NBA's Top 6th Man award in 1986 after many operations that limited his speed and quickness.
Best regards.:D

blueprofessor
02-19-2008, 08:01 AM
http://www.nbdlalbuquerque.com/warriors/history/Dupree_Chamberlain.html
The vertical has been reported by several sources.This one is by the NBA beat reporter for USA Today.It appears on the Golden State Warriors Official Website.:)
Best regards.:)

BD80
02-19-2008, 09:00 AM
In college? No issue. Shaq had no technique, little skill.

In the pros, Shaq did gain skill and understanding of the game, but never got in shape. Wilt was in phenomenal shape. Even into his 40s and 50s Wilt was able to compete in pro volleyball, which is much more than being tall. If you ever saw him alone from a distance, he looked looked like a sculpted 6'4". Only standing near others did you get a perspective of how tall and large he was.

Wilt was generally larger than he was listed, but Shaq was stronger and had greater mass. As agile as Shaq was, Wilt was an even better athlete and more skilled in scoring and on defense. Shaq probably gets the nod for passing skills. Shaq is about 12 for 120,000 in free throw shooting.

Head-to-head, Wilt wins by wearing Shaq out.

I never saw Wilt in college, but I just can't imagine anyone dominating a college game the way Oscar did. Walton would be #2 among players I've seen, Alcinder #3. Alcinder didn't seem to lead or inspire a TEAM the way Walton did.

rsvman
02-19-2008, 09:29 AM
This may be an urban legend, but the story is that Wilt could dunk from the freethrow line from a dead stand-still. In fact, legend has it that the rule about not jumping over the free-throw line came from the fact that early on Wilt would take the ball from the ref and then just leap and slam or finger-roll the ball into the basket. (Does anybody know if there is any truth to this?) He certainly had a HUGE vertical and was an impressive volleyball player.

As for Pete Maravich, my guess is that most of the people dissing him in this thread never actually watched him play. I wonder what his point average would have been if there had been a 3-point shot when he played? Somebody should go back and watch a videotape of one of his average games and give him 3 whenever he shot from behind the current 3-point line and see what he would have scored. Sure he was the only weapon on a very weak team, but dissing Maravich because of his teammates and/or his coach undervalues a truly unbelievable basketball talent. Do you begrudge JJ Redick his National Player of the Year award because he shot a lot? If you had been coaching JJ, would you have asked him to score less? If you were coaching an incredible player like Maravich, what would you have done?

blueprofessor
02-19-2008, 09:49 AM
In college? No issue. Shaq had no technique, little skill.

In the pros, Shaq did gain skill and understanding of the game, but never got in shape. Wilt was in phenomenal shape. Even into his 40s and 50s Wilt was able to compete in pro volleyball, which is much more than being tall. If you ever saw him alone from a distance, he looked looked like a sculpted 6'4". Only standing near others did you get a perspective of how tall and large he was.

Wilt was generally larger than he was listed, but Shaq was stronger and had greater mass. As agile as Shaq was, Wilt was an even better athlete and more skilled in scoring and on defense. Shaq probably gets the nod for passing skills. Shaq is about 12 for 120,000 in free throw shooting.

Head-to-head, Wilt wins by wearing Shaq out.

I never saw Wilt in college, but I just can't imagine anyone dominating a college game the way Oscar did. Walton would be #2 among players I've seen, Alcinder #3. Alcinder didn't seem to lead or inspire a TEAM the way Walton did.
:) BD80.Interesting info.Wilt was far superior to O'Neal as a passer.Wilt had years when he averaged 8.6 and 7.8 apg.He led the entire NBA one year as a center!Compare that to Bill Walton, considered one of the greatest passing centers of all time,whose best ever apg was 5. O'Neal is about a 2.5 apg player.Wilt was a quick jumper with long arms.A great shot blocker, Wilt was the greatest rebounder of all time.He would have run O'Neal to death as Wilt was incredibly fast(4.4 40) with an agile,quick 1st step.Wilt's volleyball, track, and field events playing provided an early, prescient look at the benefits of cross-training.
Best regards.:)

mgtr
02-19-2008, 09:53 AM
rsvman-
I don't why, exactly, the no step over the FT line rule enacted, but I had always heard that it was due to Bill Russell at USF, who could shoot the FT and beat the defenders to the rim in case it missed. May also be just urban legend.

Indoor66
02-19-2008, 11:15 AM
rsvman-
I don't why, exactly, the no step over the FT line rule enacted, but I had always heard that it was due to Bill Russell at USF, who could shoot the FT and beat the defenders to the rim in case it missed. May also be just urban legend.

I would accept the Russell idea as legend before the Chamberlain idea of dunking the free throw.

Chamberlain caused the lane to be widened, the 3 second rule, offensive goal tending rule, the Pro no-zone rule, rule against passing over the backboard. All that and he never fouled out of a game, High School, College or Pro!

blueprofessor
02-19-2008, 12:31 PM
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761557999/wilt_chamberlain.html

Effective as of the 1956-1957 NCAA basketball season,which was Wilt's first year on the Kansas varsity, the NCAA instituted new rules with Wilt in mind:
1.Offensive goaltending was no longer permitted.
2.Inbounding a pass under a team's own basket was restricted so that a team could not inbound the ball behind its own basket.Prior to the change,Wilt would receive the pass over the backboard and jump up and score.
3.The lanes around the basket were widened.
AND
4.On a foul shot,the shooter's foot could no longer pass the imaginary vertical plane of the free throw line until the ball hit the rim or backboard.Wilt at Overbrook High and as a freshman at Kansas would dunk some foul shots and lay others in.This matter is recounted on page 29 and page 48 of Wilt by Robert Cherry, former editor of the Arizona Republic, with foreword by Jerry West.Dick Schaap called it "the definitive biography" of Wilt.
:) Russell,shorter by3''- 4", not as muscular as Wilt( Russell was 220,Wilt was 275) and not the jumper Wilt was,almost certainly could not do it.Timing was Big Bill's game.
:) There was discussion about who could touch the top of the backboard in another thread a few weeks ago.I mentioned that Bob Lewis of UNC could remove a coin from the top of the bboard. Another mentioned that he saw David Thompson do it as well.It seems Lewis had a running start.Perhaps the 6'4" Thompson did, too.Well, Wilt could do it taking ONLY ONE STEP for a start.This was witnessed at a clinic in Emporia ,Kansas. Present were 3 frosh teammates(including Bob Billings and Monte Johnson who was later AD at Kansas).On other occasions John Parker ,KU captain, and Al Domenico,Philly 76ers trainer, saw the feat.
Best regards.:)

ugadevil
02-19-2008, 01:07 PM
2.Inbounding a pass under a team's own basket was restricted so that a team could not inbound the ball behind its own basket.Prior to the change,Wilt would receive the pass over the backboard and jump up and score.


Wow. Is there a tape of this anywhere? That would be hilarious to see.

mgtr
02-19-2008, 10:54 PM
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761557999/wilt_chamberlain.html

Effective as of the 1956-1957 NCAA basketball season,which was Wilt's first year on the Kansas varsity, the NCAA instituted new rules with Wilt in mind:
1.Offensive goaltending was no longer permitted.
2.Inbounding a pass under a team's own basket was restricted so that a team could not inbound the ball behind its own basket.Prior to the change,Wilt would receive the pass over the backboard and jump up and score.
3.The lanes around the basket were widened.
AND
4.On a foul shot,the shooter's foot could no longer pass the imaginary vertical plane of the free throw line until the ball hit the rim or backboard.Wilt at Overbrook High and as a freshman at Kansas would dunk some foul shots and lay others in.This matter is recounted on page 29 and page 48 of Wilt by Robert Cherry, former editor of the Arizona Republic, with foreword by Jerry West.Dick Schaap called it "the definitive biography" of Wilt.
:) Russell,shorter by3''- 4", not as muscular as Wilt( Russell was 220,Wilt was 275) and not the jumper Wilt was,almost certainly could not do it.Timing was Big Bill's game.
:) There was discussion about who could touch the top of the backboard in another thread a few weeks ago.I mentioned that Bob Lewis of UNC could remove a coin from the top of the bboard. Another mentioned that he saw David Thompson do it as well.It seems Lewis had a running start.Perhaps the 6'4" Thompson did, too.Well, Wilt could do it taking ONLY ONE STEP for a start.This was witnessed at a clinic in Emporia ,Kansas. Present were 3 frosh teammates(including Bob Billings and Monte Johnson who was later AD at Kansas).On other occasions John Parker ,KU captain, and Al Domenico,Philly 76ers trainer, saw the feat.
Best regards.:)

You are right that Wilt was a great athlete, and capable of many feats. However, many of the rules changes to which you refer are called, in many sources, "Russell Rules." While Wilt was scoring points, Russell was winning championships -- 2 NCAA championships at USF, a US Olympic championship at Melbourne, and 11 NBA championships. And Wilt won what? A lot of money, according to him, at least, at lot of girls, and a premature demise.
I will take Russell any day of the week.

blueprofessor
02-19-2008, 11:15 PM
:) Russell was a fine champion.However,every basketball writer I have read,including Robert Cherry,former editor of the Arizona Republic and author of Wilt's biography, attributes the 4 rule changes to Wilt's phenomenal physical gifts and performance.Read page 48.You can love Russell and still give credit where it is due.Even Jordan apparently had no comeback to Wilt's pointed query in the premises of the rule changes Wilt caused, "How many rules did they ever change for Jordan?":)
Best regards.:)

blueprofessor
02-20-2008, 08:25 AM
mgtr---I have a great deal of respect for Russell the player ( I have mixed feelings about the person).Although Russ was not the catalyst,because Wilt was, for the 4 college rule changes on offense ,I bet he had some influence on 2 of those 4 rules that were changed after he had left college to join the pro ranks (lane width and offensive goaltending), but not crossing the foul shot line and the inbounding behind the bboard(which were uniquely the Dipper's plays).
:) Russell played 3 years on the USF varsity :1953--1956.Yet,not one of the 4 rule changes occurred while he was playing or before any of those 3 seasons.Simply, there was no urgency. Recall that the dunk was deemed illegal in college bball at the start of the 1967--68 season, as Alcindor had demonstrated in the prior year at UCLA (his 1st varsity season) how devastating he was with that shot. While Wilt and other dunkers(Russell) had in prior years laid the predicate for action in the NCAA's rulemaking body,it was Alcindor who was the catalyst for the no-dunk rule change.
:) Likewise,Wilt,having startled the college basketball world as a frosh at Kansas with his play in the narrow lane and around and above the rim, was the catalyst for the aforementioned 4 rule changes.Every basketball historian and author I have read attributes the 4 rule changes which affected offensive play to Wilt, the greatest offensive player the game has known.
:) The NCAA was so astonished (Kansas was not Overbrook High) at Wilt's geometric progression in basketball at the offensive end of play that the organization did not wait for 1 or 2 or 3 varsity seasons,but acted immediately after Wilt's freshman year to promulgate the 4 changes.There had never been a 7-footer who was so strong,agile,could leap out of the gym,was so quick and fast and was so talented and inventive.The NCAA had to act fast and it did with the 4 rule changes after Wilt's frosh season in time for his 1st varsity season in 1956-1957.
Best regards.:)

Hector Vector
02-20-2008, 01:50 PM
13 to go, these 12 are locks (no particular order):

1. Alcindor
2. Walton
3. David Thompson
4. Big 0
5. Russell
6. Laettner
7. Bird
8. Jerry West
9. Bill Bradley
10. Jordan (you can quarrel with it, but I guarantee he is on here)
11. Jerry Lucas
12. Maravich

Good chance that Wilt is 13, but with only two years in college, and no NC, wouldn't be sure. Magic is only other 2 yr player on the list.

Other candidates: Danny Manning, Grant Hill (career tends to be over-glorified, IMO, although obviously excellent), Battier (winningest ever; Packer said "best college career"); Phil Ford; Rick Mount.

Karl Beem
02-20-2008, 03:05 PM
:) Russell was a fine champion.However,every basketball writer I have read,including Robert Cherry,former editor of the Arizona Republic and author of Wilt's biography, attributes the 4 rule changes to Wilt's phenomenal physical gifts and performance.Read page 48.You can love Russell and still give credit where it is due.Even Jordan apparently had no comeback to Wilt's pointed query in the premises of the rule changes Wilt caused, "How many rules did they ever change for Jordan?":)
Best regards.:)

Bob Ryan, a Boston writer, once wrote something like "..sure Russ won most of the games, but everytime he stepped on a court with Wilt, he got his Celtic-magic-^$%^$%^$% kicked." Russell's teams won more championships, Wilt's won just two. Wilt was the greatest XXL athlete the world has ever seen.

barjwr
02-20-2008, 05:14 PM
Wow. Only one player from the last 20 years, and very few from even the last 30. That's a pretty severe indictment of modern college basketball!


I would guess that nobody later than Duncan will make this list--nobody stays long enough to pile up many achievements. The only one in the neighborhood would have been Battier. Redick might have had a shot if his teams were more successful in the tourney.

blueprofessor
02-20-2008, 05:35 PM
:)Karl, Russell and Chamberlain were magnificent competitors.Russell was wise to have dinner with Chamberlain before(usually the night before) their games to keep the Dipper friendly.Russell related that Wilt could have broken the former's wrists many times had Wilt not checked the force of his dunks and blocks.Wilt said in later years he was too gentle with Russ and should have taken it to him much more physically. I don't believe Wilt ever would have because he was really pretty gentle.However, if O'Neal had tried to butt his way to the basket,Wilt would have answered.
Russell was smart to use guile and friendship (some of which may have been manipulative).In their head-to-head years, Russell, with about 3 exceptions, was surrounded by better talent--sometimes much better.Chamberlain,to lead his team to victory,usually had to dominate at both ends of the court.
Of the number of playoff series between Russell's Celtics and Wilt's Philly Warriors, San Francisco Warriors,Philly 76ers,and Lakers teams, a few stand out:
the 7-game series in 1962 when Sam Jones hit the winning shot with 2 seconds to play in the 7th game; the 7-gamer in 1965 when Hondo stole the pass with Philly setting up for the series-winning shot; the 1968 7-gamer when the Celts overcame a 3-1 76ers' lead in games to win; and the 1969 7th game win by the Celts on Nelson's miracle shot that hit the back of the rim and went so very high up and then straight down into the basket with a minute to play which led to a 2 point win by Boston.
Of course ,there was the 76ers' 4-1 win over the Celts in 1967 by a team that was selected as the greatest ever.
:) As magnificent as the Bird-Magic duels, nothing in basketball surpassed the Russell-Chamberlain rivalry. The results of their epic battles (please insert "team" after each name,as it was a team game):

:) Russell vs. Chamberlain

Regular-season meetings: 94
Russell won 57, Chamberlain 37
Postseason meetings: 49
Russell won 29, Chamberlain 20


Reg. season (head-to-head)
Russell: 14.2 PPG, 22.9 RPG Chamberlain: 30.0 PPG, 28.2 RPG
Postseason (head-to-head)
Russell: 14.9 PPG, 24.7 RPG Chamberlain: 25.7 PPG, 28.0 RPG

I miss those games---the intensity and pride among all the players were palpable.
Best regards.:)

Indoor66
02-20-2008, 05:50 PM
:)Karl, Russell and Chamberlain were magnificent competitors.Russell was wise to have dinner with Chamberlain before(usually the night before) their games to keep the Dipper friendly.Russell related that Wilt could have broken the former's wrists many times had Wilt not checked the force of his dunks and blocks.Wilt said in later years he was too gentle with Russ and should have taken it to him much more physically. I don't believe Wilt ever would have because he was really pretty gentle.However, if O'Neal had tried to butt his way to the basket,Wilt would have answered.
Russell was smart to use guile and friendship (some of which may have been manipulative).In their head-to-head years, Russell, with about 3 exceptions, was surrounded by better talent--sometimes much better.Chamberlain,to lead his team to victory,usually had to dominate at both ends of the court.
Of the number of playoff series between Russell's Celtics and Wilt's Philly Warriors, San Francisco Warriors,Philly 76ers,and Lakers teams, a few stand out:
the 7-game series in 1962 when Sam Jones hit the winning shot with 2 seconds to play in the 7th game; the 7-gamer in 1965 when Hondo stole the pass with Philly setting up for the series-winning shot; the 1968 7-gamer when the Celts overcame a 3-1 76ers' lead in games to win; and the 1969 7th game win by the Celts on Nelson's miracle shot that hit the back of the rim and went so very high up and then straight down into the basket with a minute to play which led to a 2 point win by Boston.
Of course ,there was the 76ers' 4-1 win over the Celts in 1967 by a team that was selected as the greatest ever.
:) As magnificent as the Bird-Magic duels, nothing in basketball surpassed the Russell-Chamberlain rivalry. The results of their epic battles (please insert "team" after each name,as it was a team game):

:) Russell vs. Chamberlain

Regular-season meetings: 94
Russell won 57, Chamberlain 37
Postseason meetings: 49
Russell won 29, Chamberlain 20


Reg. season (head-to-head)
Russell: 14.2 PPG, 22.9 RPG Chamberlain: 30.0 PPG, 28.2 RPG
Postseason (head-to-head)
Russell: 14.9 PPG, 24.7 RPG Chamberlain: 25.7 PPG, 28.0 RPG

I miss those games---the intensity and pride among all the players were palpable.
Best regards.:)

How many times has Shaq ever had 28 rebounds in a game, much less average that number over a series of games? Those guys played a game that few have ever even been familiar with.

MIKESJ73
02-20-2008, 06:48 PM
Frank Selvey from Furman still holds the NCAA record for 100 pts in a game (1954), but I don't know if he could be considered coming from such a small school.

Verga3
02-20-2008, 10:41 PM
It's fun to read these great and informative posts, especially recalling the big guys: Alcindor, Chamberlain, Russell and Walton. Tough job at ESPN to pick the BEST college player of all time.

OK....Enough with all the stats, anecdotes and accolades. It's time to put up or shut up. Who's ready to go on record with who they think ESPN will pick (in order) in their Top 10? Let's play guys....

Pete Maravich
Oscar Robertson
Lew Alcindor
Larry Bird
David Thompson
Bill Walton
Jerry Lucas
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Jerry West

Sandman
02-21-2008, 01:44 AM
Having watched Alcindor, Maravich, Walton, Robertson, Dr. J, and most of the other greats play over a lot of years, one thing to keep in mind is the generational differences. Players have individually become more athletic and more experienced every generation as the game has evolved, but team play and fundamentals have perhaps deteriorated. Having said that, the one player that would have excelled in any generation in almost every facet of the game is David Thompson, the most amazing college player ever.

dkbaseball
02-21-2008, 01:49 AM
It's fun to read these great and informative posts, especially recalling the big guys: Alcindor, Chamberlain, Russell and Walton. Tough job at ESPN to pick the BEST college player of all time.

OK....Enough with all the stats, anecdotes and accolades. It's time to put up or shut up. Who's ready to go on record with who they think ESPN will pick (in order) in their Top 10? Let's play guys....

Pete Maravich
Oscar Robertson
Lew Alcindor
Larry Bird
David Thompson
Bill Walton
Jerry Lucas
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Jerry West

Alcindor
Thompson
Walton
Russell
Robertson
Bird
Maravich
West
Chamberlain
Lucas

dkbaseball
02-21-2008, 08:46 AM
Has Laettner not been named yet? If not, he goes on my list behind Russell, Wilt gets bumped off the list.

barjwr
02-22-2008, 05:55 PM
Has Laettner not been named yet? If not, he goes on my list behind Russell, Wilt gets bumped off the list.

I anticipate a thread merge, but it appears that Laettner has been named #12, according to the thread below.

Verga3
02-23-2008, 01:36 PM
Dunno.Rodney Rogers? John Lucas?Who,O F?

As for the greatest college player:
1. Bill Walton
2. Lew Alcindor
3. The Big O
4. Larry Bird
5. Ralph Sampson
6. David Thompson
7. Bill Russell
8. Wilt
9. Jerry Lucas
10. Jerry West
11. Pistol Pete
12. Magic
13. Tom Gola
14. David Robinson
15. Christian Laettner
16. Bill Bradley
17. Patrick Ewing
18. Elvin Hayes
19. George Mikan ( for the old-timers)


Best regards:) :)


BP, great job on your earlier picks.....you've been very close. ESPN just named Jerry Lucas at #11, so I'm doing a final tweak to my Top #10 before #10 is announced. I've been somewhat influenced by some of the compelling prior posts, particularly on the big men.

It will be interesting to see how much weight ESPN ultimately gives to player performance that resulted in significant team accomplishments/ championships, and if that trumps raw individual performance and stats. So far, it not fully clear. I'm sticking with my man, Pistol Pete at #1, but will understand if Alcindor or Walton shows up there.

OK, I'm sellin' here. Check out the most incredible college highlight clip I have ever seen, below. What's remarkable in this grainy video is that someone was able to play like this 40 years ago. I've seen better athletes on the basketball court, but don't know of anyone with more pure skill. Enjoy.

Pete Maravich http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8qUZILi8IM
Lew Alcindor
Oscar Robertson
Bill Walton
Larry Bird
David Thompson
Bill Russell
Bill Bradley
Wilt Chamberlain
Jerry West

Verga3
02-24-2008, 04:06 PM
With all the current discussion on thread merges, this one may also be a candidate to clean up. Consider bringing in the "Laettner at #12" thread into this one.....same subject.

blueprofessor
02-26-2008, 03:27 AM
as the 10th best-ever college player. He was a 2-time unanimous AA in his 2 varsity seasons at Kansas.
Nine selections to come.
Best regards.:)

Verga3
02-27-2008, 06:44 PM
Per ESPN....and via French Lick and Indiana State, Larry Bird is the 9th greatest college player ever. Eight to go....getting interesting.

gw67
02-28-2008, 07:44 AM
According to ESPN last night, David Thompson is their 8th greatest college player. To those of us in ACC land, he was right there with the very best.

With seven remaining, the obvious are Alcindor, Russell, Walton, the Big O and Maravich. I suspect that Mikan might be one, as could Luisetti.

gw67

blueprofessor
02-28-2008, 08:33 AM
comprised in some order of:
Alcindor, Walton, Robertson, Russell, Maravich, West, and Bradley, as Mikan has already been picked at #25.:)
Best regards.:)

blueprofessor
02-28-2008, 08:40 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3267851&categoryId=3238346

gw67
02-28-2008, 08:47 AM
blueprofessor - Thanks. I didn't have list in front of me and forgot that Mikan was previously picked. I also left out Bradley who deserves to be in the top ten. I really liked West as a player. He was a great player but he was not a better college player than David Thompson.

I tuned out this list as soon as they named Jordan one of the greatest. He was the greatest pro player ever and an excellent college player but he wouldn't even make my top five ACC players.

gw67

Forrest
02-28-2008, 09:22 AM
I tuned out this list as soon as they named Jordan one of the greatest. He was the greatest pro player ever and an excellent college player but he wouldn't even make my top five ACC players.
Who would?

I'd say Thompson, Laettner, Ford, Sampson, and Duncan, but I could be persuaded otherwise (Heyman, Cunningham, Lucas, Bias, Hill, . . .) re Sampson and Duncan.

Best players that'll never make the list? Mike Gminski, Bryant Stith, Antwan Jamison, Mark Price, Lenny Rosenbluth.

blueprofessor
02-28-2008, 09:35 AM
blueprofessor - Thanks. I didn't have list in front of me and forgot that Mikan was previously picked. I also left out Bradley who deserves to be in the top ten. I really liked West as a player. He was a great player but he was not a better college player than David Thompson.

I tuned out this list as soon as they named Jordan one of the greatest. He was the greatest pro player ever and an excellent college player but he wouldn't even make my top five ACC players.

gw67

I believe that Bradley was not better than Thompson. Dollar Bill,however, was an American icon...the basketball Love Story.West may or may not have been better in college than Thompson, but he became one of the 3 or 4 greatest pro guards of all time (without the 3-point shot,an important fact as West is one of the greatest long range shooters ever),was picked ahead of Magic by Wooden on his all-time (non-UCLA) basketball team,is arguably in the top 10 NBA players of all time, was said to be the best guard in the game (better than Oscar) to a man by the Celtic players who respected him above any other non-Celtic for West's HEROIC playoff performances, played in 9 NBA Finals( averaged 30.5 points a game and 43.1 minutes per game), dominated his position and was one of the 2 best players in the league no less than 4 different seasons(as judged by MVP votes) in an era dominated by Russell and Wilt and then Jabbar, averaged 27 ppg and 5.8 rpg and 6.7 apg , and was a perennial 1st team all-defensive selection as well.
Unless, West, all of a sudden got a whole lot better in the NBA, he was certainly a phenomenal talent at West Virginia.
Best regards.:)
P.S. My agreement with gw67 re Jordan is that he was not a top 5 all-time ACC player. I do not believe he was the greatest all-time NBA player.

Johnboy
02-28-2008, 09:38 AM
Who would?

I'd say Thompson, Laettner, Ford, Sampson, and Duncan, but I could be persuaded otherwise (Heyman, Cunningham, Lucas, Bias, Hill, . . .) re Sampson and Duncan.

Best players that'll never make the list? Mike Gminski, Bryant Stith, Antwan Jamison, Mark Price, Lenny Rosenbluth.

Those are some good lists. I'd add Johnny Dawkins to your second list, as I think he was at least Mark Price's equal in college. I can think of others that could be mentioned, but I'm not sure I could make a strong enough case for them - Bobby Hurley, James Worthy, Sam Perkins, John Salley, Danny Ferry, Dick Groat, Kenny Anderson, Len Chappell, Rodney Monroe . . .

This (http://www.sportsstats.com/bball/leader.lists/PAR)is an interesting page, through 2002, ranking players for points, assists and rebounds (PAR). Flawed, but interesting.

gw67
02-28-2008, 10:44 AM
Blueprofessor – Your description of Jerry West as an NBA star is right on the money. He was exceptional in high school and college as well. I saw him play for East Bank against South Charleston during his junior and senior years. He was easily the best high school player that I ever saw play in person. When he went to WVU, they didn’t have freshmen eligibility so he played on the freshmen team and, if my memory serves, he was considered by many the second best player on that team behind Willie Akers. That assessment would quickly change when he began playing as a soph. He was the missing piece for perhaps the best WVU team of all time.

My dad was a big sports fan and he loved college basketball. My uncle lived in Cincinnati and he got tickets to the Kentucky Invitational during West's sophomore year. This was a two day Christmas time tournament in Lexington. WVU played against Kentucky and their All American, Johnny Cox, and after beating Kentucky on their home court, they played defending NCAA champ, UNC, and their preseason All American, Pete Brennan. West played head to head against both and outplayed them. Even though it was over 50 years ago, I remember the beginning of the UNC game. The folks sitting next to us were Heels fans and they felt that their team (No.1) and Brennan would easily take care of WVU. On one of the first plays of the game, Brennan at 6-6 had his jump shot blocked by the 6-3 West. West scored, rebounded and defended in the two games and was immediately played up by the media after the tournament. Later, I saw him play in the Southern Conference Tournament in Richmond for a couple of years, at the Fort Meyer Armory in Northern Virginia for GWU games and against Don Hennon and Pitt. I saw Thompson play three times in person and I saw the Big O play once. As great as West was, I thought that they were better. One amazing stat for West was that he averaged 17 rpg as a senior. The WVU team that year had no size and he had to help on the boards.

gw67

blueprofessor
02-28-2008, 11:28 AM
Blueprofessor – Your description of Jerry West as an NBA star is right on the money. He was exceptional in high school and college as well. I saw him play for East Bank against South Charleston during his junior and senior years. He was easily the best high school player that I ever saw play in person. When he went to WVU, they didn’t have freshmen eligibility so he played on the freshmen team and, if my memory serves, he was considered by many the second best player on that team behind Willie Akers. That assessment would quickly change when he began playing as a soph. He was the missing piece for perhaps the best WVU team of all time.

My dad was a big sports fan and he loved college basketball. My uncle lived in Cincinnati and he got tickets to the Kentucky Invitational during West's sophomore year. This was a two day Christmas time tournament in Lexington. WVU played against Kentucky and their All American, Johnny Cox, and after beating Kentucky on their home court, they played defending NCAA champ, UNC, and their preseason All American, Pete Brennan. West played head to head against both and outplayed them. Even though it was over 50 years ago, I remember the beginning of the UNC game. The folks sitting next to us were Heels fans and they felt that their team (No.1) and Brennan would easily take care of WVU. On one of the first plays of the game, Brennan at 6-6 had his jump shot blocked by the 6-3 West. West scored, rebounded and defended in the two games and was immediately played up by the media after the tournament. Later, I saw him play in the Southern Conference Tournament in Richmond for a couple of years, at the Fort Meyer Armory in Northern Virginia for GWU games and against Don Hennon and Pitt. I saw Thompson play three times in person and I saw the Big O play once. As great as West was, I thought that they were better. One amazing stat for West was that he averaged 17 rpg as a senior. The WVU team that year had no size and he had to help on the boards.

gw67


I guess you realize how lucky you were to see West, Oscar, and Thompson IN
PERSON! I saw snippets of O and West on the tube.Saw Thompson as a freshman at Duke.I bet some of the "youngins" (under 50 or so) on the DBR would be amazed at how little tv coverage there was of college sports in the early '60s. National championship games in bball sometimes were delay-broadcasted. I listened to the Cincin.-Loyola Nat'l Ch. game on the radio! There was 1 televised college football game a week.You were very lucky. I paid a pittance to see 4 games(consolation game then) in the 1966 Final Four at Cole. Bought the ticket on the steps that descended to the fieldhouse---second row under the basket.I will take your word on West and Thompson in college. As you may have alluded, no comparison between them in the pros, though.
Re Oscar, I wholeheartedly agree.He, like Wilt, was the geometric progression in the college game (like Russell on defense) from the old to the new. And he had a body like Bob Hayes...
only a lot bigger!
I love your and others' first-hand accounts.Thanks!
Best regards.:)

jimsumner
02-28-2008, 12:05 PM
" Bobby Hurley, James Worthy, Sam Perkins, John Salley, Danny Ferry, Dick Groat, Kenny Anderson, Len Chappell, Rodney Monroe . . ."

Good list except for Salley. We're talking about a guy who never even made first-team All-ACC. Did you mean to put Dennis Scott instead?

gw67
02-28-2008, 12:18 PM
blueprofessor - You are correct about TV coverage in the late 50's and early 60's. There was some ACC coverage but very little national coverage. I don't recall if I ever saw the Big O on the tube and it was a big deal that the NCAA finals (I remember seeing Cinncinati vs Ohio State) was televised.

As my 92 year-old mother pointed out a few weeks ago when we got together with my brothers, my memory is very selective. I do remember snipets of play from 45-50 years but I have pretty good recollections from the 70's on since I saw a bunch of games at UHall and Cole. I recall Thompson playing against Wally Walker. Walker was about 3-4 inches taller than Thompson, was a good jumper and a great offensive player. In the games I saw, Thompson easily outplayed Walker and another taller player (Gerard?). To this day, Thompson is the best ACC player of all time, IMO.

gw67

dkbaseball
02-28-2008, 01:29 PM
.Saw Thompson as a freshman at Duke.

Do you recall early in that game where he soared way up above 6-8 Bob Fleischer and Duke's other big for a rebound? Said to myself: "I've got a feeling all the hype is going to be justified."

Has Thompson already been named by ESPN? A farce if he's not in the top three.

blueprofessor
02-28-2008, 04:02 PM
Do you recall early in that game where he soared way up above 6-8 Bob Fleischer and Duke's other big for a rebound? Said to myself: "I've got a feeling all the hype is going to be justified."

Has Thompson already been named by ESPN? A farce if he's not in the top three.

and ,yes, there was no "dad-gum" hype. He scored 49 against the UNC frosh and beat us twice( by about 10 and 20).I remember how easily he seemed to jump...and always with a purpose.Used to bigger players' domination, I was amazed at what he did at only 6'4" 15 feet and closer in our home game.I also remember going to the game early as those end zone seats(smaller bleachers then) in the end where the band sits now were full.Even at most varsity games,those bleachers had seats for late arrivals. Didn't he have a 35 points/15 or 20 rebounds vs. our frosh that game? He averaged 35 and 14 for the year and lost only one game (UNC), while compiling a 15-1 record---a harbinger of great seasons to come.He was also a terrific triple jumper, set the NC State record and qualified for the NCAAs.
I do not remember the specific play you mentioned,but my general impression of him was I had never seen anybody in person play like him at 6'4".
Best regards.:)

Indoor66
02-28-2008, 04:31 PM
and ,yes, there was no "dad-gum" hype. He scored 49 against the UNC frosh and beat us twice( by about 10 and 20).I remember how easily he seemed to jump...and always with a purpose.Used to bigger players' domination, I was amazed at what he did at only 6'4" 15 feet and closer in our home game.I also remember going to the game early as those end zone seats(smaller bleachers then) in the end where the band sits now were full.Even at most varsity games,those bleachers had seats for late arrivals. Didn't he have a 35 points/15 or 20 rebounds vs. our frosh that game? He averaged 35 and 14 for the year and lost only one game (UNC), while compiling a 15-1 record---a harbinger of great seasons to come.He was also a terrific triple jumper, set the NC State record and qualified for the NCAAs.
I do not remember the specific play you mentioned,but my general impression of him was I had never seen anybody in person play like him at 6'4".
Best regards.:)

I agree that Thompson was the best ever in the ACC. I watched his entire career. He did it all. I also disliked him because he was the cause of the only NCAA penalty ever suffered by Duke for a recruiting infraction. Damn that sport coat!

blueprofessor
02-28-2008, 05:04 PM
I agree that Thompson was the best ever in the ACC. I watched his entire career. He did it all. I also disliked him because he was the cause of the only NCAA penalty ever suffered by Duke for a recruiting infraction. Damn that sport coat!

that Thompson was named by Sports Illustrated as one of the top 5 college players of all time some years ago, IIRC. In the earlier post I should have said that I had never seen in person or on TV any 6'4" player with the set of skills that led to positive results as Thompson had. I had forgotten about the coat!:(

gw67--Another thing about West---he was 1st team all-NBA 10 times and 2nd 1 time, as well as 1st team all-defense quite often. Oscar was all-NBA first team 9 times and 2nd team twice.Magic was 9 and 1. Neither the Big O or Magic was close to West in defensive performance.IIRC, Magic was among the lesser rated guards defensively.
dk----Any other memories of that frosh game?
Best regards.:)

dkbaseball
02-28-2008, 05:21 PM
dk----Any other memories of that frosh game?


Just generally, Thompson's combination of elevation with a great outside shot, and Monte Towe's ability to get the ball down the floor quickly in different ways. I will credit myself with thinking afterwards that if anybody was going to have a chance to knock off one of Wooden's teams, it would be this bunch. I remember that everybody I talked to was similarly impressed.

Indoor66
02-28-2008, 05:37 PM
Just generally, Thompson's combination of elevation with a great outside shot, and Monte Towe's ability to get the ball down the floor quickly in different ways. I will credit myself with thinking afterwards that if anybody was going to have a chance to knock off one of Wooden's teams, it would be this bunch. I remember that everybody I talked to was similarly impressed.

We seem to forget that one of the best on those State teams at delivering the passes to Thompson was 6'7" forward, Tim Stoddard. Stoddard later was a pitcher for the Baltimore Orioles.

dkbaseball
02-28-2008, 05:56 PM
We seem to forget that one of the best on those State teams at delivering the passes to Thompson was 6'7" forward, Tim Stoddard. Stoddard later was a pitcher for the Baltimore Orioles.

If the wind hadn't blown the ball back into the park and the centerfielder doesn't make a leaping catch, I would have had a walk-off homerun against him (I swear on a stack of Bibles). With Thompson and Towe watching, since the game was in Raleigh as a makeup of a rainout. Of the top pitchers in the ACC at the time, he wasn't the one I would have predicted to have a long major league career (and I believe it was over ten years). But he was a competitor, and I imagine playing NCAA hoops on the biggest stage had something to do with that.

blueprofessor
02-28-2008, 06:20 PM
it is a damn good story/memory.This board is a great place for stories full of small coincidences and ironies.:)
What did he throw?What did you hit?
Best regards.:)

dkbaseball
02-28-2008, 08:20 PM
it is a damn good story/memory.This board is a great place for stories full of small coincidences and ironies.:)
What did he throw?What did you hit?
Best regards.:)

Bless you, blueprofessor. I've been waiting 35 years to tell this almost story. Very windy day in Raleigh. Discombobulated me on the mound, and I gave up four runs in the first, but then settled down and didn't let anybody past first base after the first inning. We go into the bottom of the last inning down 4-2, get two guys on, me up with one out. Stoddard was still a little rusty from basketball season, and they were using him out of the bullpen. They bring him in when I come up. At that time, he was almost strictly a fastball pitcher. For some reason, he starts me with a breaking ball for ball one. So everybody in the park knows the next pitch will be a fastball. I didn't particularly like 90+ high fastballs from righthanders, but I was sitting on it, so I got it pretty good and settled into the HR trot. Then the fates intervened.

I'm reminding myself of an old announcer named Bob Murphy, who was inducted into the Hall of Fame in '94. On a really hot day, when everybody was waiting to see Lefty Carlton and Scooter Rizutto, he was recalling some of the big games he called, literally pitch by pitch. Eventually people started booing, and he finally got the message and cut the reminiscences short.

sagegrouse
02-28-2008, 08:33 PM
I believe that Bradley was not better than Thompson. Dollar Bill,however, was an American icon...the basketball Love Story.

For that era, the unranked Cazzie Russell IMHO was a far better player than Bill Bradley. Of course, when John McPhee writes a 50-page New Yorker essay on you when you are at Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar, you are a legend.

Bradley should be somewhere north of #20. Do you really think, if he had come to Duke, he would have been much better than Heyman and Mullins?

sagegrouse

Indoor66
02-28-2008, 08:44 PM
Bless you, blueprofessor. I've been waiting 35 years to tell this almost story. Very windy day in Raleigh. Discombobulated me on the mound, and I gave up four runs in the first, but then settled down and didn't let anybody past first base after the first inning. We go into the bottom of the last inning down 4-2, get two guys on, me up with one out. Stoddard was still a little rusty from basketball season, and they were using him out of the bullpen. They bring him in when I come up. At that time, he was almost strictly a fastball pitcher. For some reason, he starts me with a breaking ball for ball one. So everybody in the park knows the next pitch will be a fastball. I didn't particularly like 90+ high fastballs from righthanders, but I was sitting on it, so I got it pretty good and settled into the HR trot. Then the fates intervened.

...and thus ended your opportunity to go to The Show! :) :D

dkbaseball
02-28-2008, 08:51 PM
...and thus ended your opportunity to go to The Show! :) :D

Ended a few years earlier when I stopped growing at 5-8. But I didn't know it at the time.

blueprofessor
02-29-2008, 07:49 AM
For that era, the unranked Cazzie Russell IMHO was a far better player than Bill Bradley. Of course, when John McPhee writes a 50-page New Yorker essay on you when you are at Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar, you are a legend.

Bradley should be somewhere north of #20. Do you really think, if he had come to Duke, he would have been much better than Heyman and Mullins?

sagegrouse

:) On my list,sagegrouse, I had Bradley at #16.Better than Mullins. Better (I agree, not "much" better) than Heyman,IMHO.What I know is that Duke team ,reconstituted as you suggest, would have been awesome---a passing and shooting wonder.
Perhaps someone can answer this:has the rather unethical behavior of Bradley ,in committing to Duke and attending another school and Duke's discovering it was w/o Bradley too late to recruit over him (assumed these facts,please correct me), ever been scrutinized or explained by the media? By Bradley?

dk-----damn fate!As Manilius wrote of fate and wind:Forget thy hopes,and give thy fears to wind; For Fate rules all, its stubborn laws must sway
The lower world, and man confin'd obey.:(
Best regards.:)

blueprofessor
02-29-2008, 08:20 AM
...as sagegrouse reported earlier.Bradley was an icon (and icons have legs) and a great player with a compelling story, but I do not think he was better in college than #8 Thompson, #9 Bird, #10 Wilt,or #11 Lucas. The latter 4 players changed how the "game" was being played by force of talent and/or by introducing a new skill set in a different- sized player.Bradley did not, but he surely gave all of us who love the under-dog teams something to cheer for!So, in the spirit of good sportsmanship:
"Here's to you,Tiger Bill Bradley!"
Best regards.:)
P.S. Damn, I'm getting choked up with all the distant memories!

roywhite
02-29-2008, 10:09 AM
Six left to be named and five are locks IMO:
Alcindor
Oscar Robertson
Bill Walton
Bill Russell
Pete Maravich
(that would be my order with Alcindor #1)

The last spot would seem to be either Danny Manning or Jerry West. Both IMO deserve to be somewhere in the top 25, but neither really should be #6 or better. Am I missing any other possibles?

Verga3
02-29-2008, 10:24 AM
Six left to be named and five are locks IMO:
Alcindor
Oscar Robertson
Bill Walton
Bill Russell
Pete Maravich
(that would be my order with Alcindor #1)

The last spot would seem to be either Danny Manning or Jerry West. Both IMO deserve to be somewhere in the top 25, but neither really should be #6 or better. Am I missing any other possibles?


I'll bite.......Agreed on #6 being either West or Manning. I would guess West.

My Top 5 in order:

Pete Maravich
Lew Alcindor
Oscar Robertson
Bill Walton
Bill Russell

blueprofessor
02-29-2008, 10:52 AM
comprised in some order of:
Alcindor, Walton, Robertson, Russell, Maravich, West, and Bradley.:)
Best regards.:)

Manning was outstanding,but he was not better than anyone from the 15th choice(Magic) and higher.Jerry is the man!:D
Best regards.:D

blueprofessor
02-29-2008, 10:55 AM
comprised in some order of:
Alcindor, Walton, Robertson, Russell, Maravich, West, and Bradley.:)
Best regards.:)

Bradley is 7th.Manning was outstanding,but he was not better than anyone from the 15th choice(Magic) and higher.Jerry is the man!:D
Best regards.:D

mgtr
02-29-2008, 11:29 AM
My Top 5 in order:

Pete Maravich
Lew Alcindor
Oscar Robertson
Bill Walton
Bill Russell

I would pretty much agree with this list, if it were reversed (Maravich #5 and Russell, or maybe Walton, #1).

crimsonandblue
02-29-2008, 11:56 AM
Six left to be named and five are locks IMO:
Alcindor
Oscar Robertson
Bill Walton
Bill Russell
Pete Maravich
(that would be my order with Alcindor #1)

The last spot would seem to be either Danny Manning or Jerry West. Both IMO deserve to be somewhere in the top 25, but neither really should be #6 or better. Am I missing any other possibles?

I agree that one of Manning or West is going to get hosed. But there's just no way that Manning shouldn't be on this list. Tim Duncan over Manning or West based only on college performance?

I know I'm biased, but Manning is ninth in all time scoring. Played good defense. Good rebounder. Two final fours and one title.

I do wonder if they're waiting to name him Saturday with College Gameday in town for KU-KState. They've tiered it out conveniently...

That said, West does belong on this list somewhere. And personally, I don't think Manning necessarily belongs above Wilt or in the top 10. But he belongs on the list.

sagegrouse
02-29-2008, 12:01 PM
Six left to be named and five are locks IMO:
Alcindor
Oscar Robertson
Bill Walton
Bill Russell
Pete Maravich
(that would be my order with Alcindor #1)

The last spot would seem to be either Danny Manning or Jerry West. Both IMO deserve to be somewhere in the top 25, but neither really should be #6 or better. Am I missing any other possibles?

Holy cow! Jerry West is a basketball legend (actually he is the NBA logo personified -- lefthanded, thin guard).

When Kansas won the NCAA championships in 1988, remember that they were an eight seed (IIRC) -- not exactly the stuff of legend. I think Manning is off the list.

Robertson would be ahead of West, I suspect. And then you have the choice of the big men (Russell, Alcindor, Walton) or a guard/SF (Robertson, West, Maravich).

My guess at the order would be (alternating big and small):

1. Alcindor
2. Robertson
3. Russell
4. West
5. Walton
6. Maravich

I think Maravich is a clown act -- although damned good -- and the living members of the top 25 would go berserk if he were selected over guys that won championships (at college and/or pro level). I mean, his LSU teams never won anything, and while he might have been around a championship Celtic team at the end of his career, he was not material to its success.

West did not win an NCAA championship (runnerup to Cal, IIRC), but his WVa teams were AP #1 at least a couple of times, and he was a proven champion in the NBA. Russell, Alcindor, Robertson, and Walton all won multiple NCAA championships and at least one NBA championship.

sagegrouse

sagegrouse
02-29-2008, 12:13 PM
:)Perhaps someone can answer this:has the rather unethical behavior of Bradley ,in committing to Duke and attending another school and Duke's discovering it was w/o Bradley too late to recruit over him (assumed these facts,please correct me), ever been scrutinized or explained by the media? By Bradley?


I have heard two versions of the story:

Bradley's own is that during the summer he began reading the Princeton course catalog, particularly about the Woodrow Wilson school, and made up his mind to go to Princeton.

The other version (Feinstein? Brill?) was that Bradley's father, a banker who had not gone to college, believed that the only real colleges were Harvard, Yale and Princeton, and put a lot of pressure on his son.

FWIW, people I know who were grad students in econ at Princeton at the time thought that he was a trifle thick. But clearly the Rhodes Committee wanted a marquis name when it became time to for selections.

"Unethical behavior" did not, I fear, enter into it except in a high school changing his mind at the last instant.

sagegrouse

blueprofessor
02-29-2008, 12:17 PM
crimsonandblue,I just do not believe Manning could be listed above Magic,Hayes,Laettner,Lucas,Wilt, Bird, Thompson, or Bradley(numbers 15-7,excluding number 13 Jordan). I do believe West could and should be.He was ,after all, one of the 10 best players of all time, considering college and pro careers.
I do understand how some could rate Manning equal to Jordan (#13) at the college level.
We shall see...and I would not be surprised if pick # 6 or #5 answers the question.But it is probably wise not to wager large sums that Manning will be picked as the SIXTH best college player of all time.Sixth is very,very special!
The remaining 6 in some order:Alcindor,Walton,Oscar,Russell,Maravich,and West.
Best regards.:)
p.S. sagegrouse,just read your Bradley info in response to my query.Thanks.I still wonder why the failure to notify Duke has not been visited with all the "character" scrutiny now.

crimsonandblue
02-29-2008, 12:51 PM
To the "not exactly the stuff of legend" post - putting an 8 seed on your back and carrying them to a national title isn't the stuff of legend? Three-time conference player of the year? Two time consensus all-american? Snubbing sure #1 pick to come back and lead a mediocre team to a NCAA tournament championship FF MOP and consensus NPOY? 2,900+ points? 1,100 rebounds? 250 steals? 300+ assists? 200 blocks? 59% FG% and 74% FT%?

Blueprof - I know Duncan was already picked at 21, my point is, if Manning isn't there at 6, he's not getting on the list at all with the locks that are still out there.

To the notion that Manning can't be above Laettner - he only bested him in points, rebounds, assists and blocks each of their respective years of their careers, so I can see your point. Not that Laettner doesn't belong, but Manning could certainly be put above him.

Anyway, again, I don't think Manning belongs above Wilt or West or whatever. But he sure as heck is a top 25 college player of all time. And back to my main point, c'mon, Tim Duncan over Danny Manning?

blueprofessor
02-29-2008, 01:44 PM
...and your acknowledging that Manning does not belong ahead of West or Wilt.
I did state that I could understand that some would rank him as the college equal of Jordan.
I know how great Manning was ,as I was at Kemper Arena in 1988 watching him, as you reminded, put the Jayhawks on his back and win a NC.
:) Nonetheless, we are talking "opinion" here.My "opinion" is that Manning "could" be,but not "should" be, in the top 25(he "may" be on the level of Calvin Murphy,at #23,for instance)if one compares him to some who made the list.However, the standard is "greatest", not "best" or "most talented."There is an active nuance at hand.
:) In my "opinion",Laettner was better. He played great in a ton of huge games.Laettner was 15th on my list in a post near the beginning of this thread.Obviously,Manning "can be ahead" of Laettner,as you think he should be.I was stating an "opinion", not issuing a metaphysical decree!We differ in our "opinions"--I believe Laettner is demonstrably greater than Manning ;you believe Manning is "better" because he had more impressive individual stats than Laettner..No sweat.
:) Was Manning "more talented" than Mikan,Murphy,Kurland, and Gola (a 4-time 1st team All-America)? Probably.Was he "greater" than Mikan, Kurland, or Gola?Not in my opinion.Murphy...well maybe.
:) And, I believe ESPN picks 1-15(except Jordan) were demonstrably better and greater than Manning.
Best regards

mapei
02-29-2008, 06:47 PM
I don't see West as a top 10 college player. What came after shouldn't matter (but it does, of course).

barjwr
02-29-2008, 09:21 PM
To the "not exactly the stuff of legend" post - putting an 8 seed on your back and carrying them to a national title isn't the stuff of legend?

They were actually a #6 seed in 1988 after a late season swoon that resulted in losing 5 of 6 games before the Big Eight tournament. They remain the team with the most losses to win the NCAAs.

I agree that he deserves to be on the list somewhere--and given his supporting cast (or lack thereof), to win a national championship and make it to another Final Four was a fairly impressive accomplishment. He is third behind Laettner and Elvin Hayes for NCAA tournament scoring and ninth for career scoring.

Again, ESPN claims that this is ONLY about collegiate performance, so there's no way I see his resume as less deserving than Duncan's.

blueprofessor
03-01-2008, 12:40 PM
I don't see West as a top 10 college player. What came after shouldn't matter (but it does, of course).

...and I wonder (given the likely ESPN top 10 ,in some order, of Alcindor,Walton,O,Russell,Pete,West,Bradley,Thomps on,Bird,and Wilt),whom (and the rationale for that person) you would move up to take West's spot in the top 10?It appears,on a hunch, that West will be 5th or 6th on ESPN's list of the "Greatest 25 Basketball Players in College History."
Would you keep Bradley(at #7) in the top 10,yet move West out?

:) gw67 had a descriptive post about West in college.I never saw him play a full game, because of limited TV exposure of sports in those days.However, he was a phenomenal talent from the fact that he had a terrific 1st year in the pros and was 1st team all-NBA in his SECOND year and 9 more times,as well as 2nd in MVP voting in '66,'70,'71, and '72.Two-time 2nd team all-NBA. So, in 13 seasons when he could play(injured most of last season), he was 1st team 10 time and 2nd team twice!Magic and Oscar were 1st teamers 9 times each.
Moreover,West was 4 times a first -team Defensive all-NBA selection(the award was only begun in the 9th year of West's 14 year career).
West was considered the best defensive guard in the league beginning in the early '60s.Obviously, this multitude of talent did not just appear in West's 1st NBA season.
:)So,then, let's look at college: West was a 2-time consensus All-America at WVU.He was MVP as a losing player in the FF when his team lost the championship game in 1959.
Junior year:26.6 ppg,12.3 rpg,52% from field (an incredibly high % at any level;for instance Bill Russell, an opportunistic scorer only, in the NBA in 1960-61 took few shots except dunks, tips, and short hooks and shot 42.6%).
Senior year:29.3ppg,16.5 rpg,50% from the field, and 4 apg.
:) West and Robertson brought a very high shooting % to the pros.In 1962, the NBA shooting % was 42.6%. In 1960-61,when West entered the league,the shooting %s were low and those of the stars were low as well.Cousy,37.5%; Sharman,42%:Arizin,42.5%:Russell,42.6%;Lenny Wilkens,42.5%;Robert E. Lee Pettit Jr.,high at 45%.Only Wilt was fairly high at 51%.
Yet, West went on to have a 48% shooting % for his career(including playoffs) and Oscar at 48.4 % (including playoffs).
While the collegian West was not Alcindor,Oscar, or Walton in college, he was a phenomenal player: great shooter, outstanding rebounder and defensive player, great scorer, and excellent passer and ball-handler.
The question remains: If not West in the top 10 in college,...who?
Best regards.:)

Verga3
03-01-2008, 05:42 PM
Congrats to Jerry....what a career at West Virginia.

Last call for Top 5 prognosticators.

Jarhead
03-01-2008, 09:29 PM
Let me tell you about a comment from a friend of mine made about West Virginia when Jerry West was playing there: "Without West, it's nothing but Virginia."

tech9127
03-03-2008, 12:24 PM
Looking at who has been selected and who has not been selected, I would submit that the remaining five players to be selected are:

Maravich
Robertson
Russell
Walton
Alcinder

Do you agree and rank them in the order you think they should appear.

mgtr
03-03-2008, 01:06 PM
Sure, I will bite. I am uncertain that these are the remaining 5, but if so:

5 Maravich
4 Robertson
3 Alcindor
2 Russell
1 Walton


Bound to be controversial -- if I were going to change anything, I would probably switch Russell and Walton. Fire when ready!

throatybeard
03-03-2008, 01:08 PM
In honor of our matchup with UVA this week, I feel I should acknowledge the greatest player in NCAA history, Willie Dersch.

roywhite
03-03-2008, 01:49 PM
In honor of our matchup with UVA this week, I feel I should acknowledge the greatest player in NCAA history, Willie Dersch.

In further honor of the matchup and in appreciation of Danny Meagher, I'll cast one (slightly wet) vote for Tom Sheehy.

blueprofessor
03-04-2008, 08:10 AM
Video link:http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3230172
Best regards.:)

blueprofessor
03-05-2008, 11:58 AM
comprised in some order of:
Alcindor, Walton, Robertson, Russell, Maravich, West, and Bradley, as Mikan has already been picked at #25.:)
Best regards.:)

So far: 1-3 to go. Bradley(7),West(6),Pete Maravich(5), and Russell(4) have been picked.
Best regards.:)

Exiled_Devil
03-05-2008, 12:29 PM
Did I miss something or is Len Bias not on that list?

Verga3
03-05-2008, 07:55 PM
Six left to be named and five are locks IMO:
Alcindor
Oscar Robertson
Bill Walton
Bill Russell
Pete Maravich
(that would be my order with Alcindor #1)

The last spot would seem to be either Danny Manning or Jerry West. Both IMO deserve to be somewhere in the top 25, but neither really should be #6 or better. Am I missing any other possibles?

Nice picks so far RW.....you just may hit it.

I was blinded by Pistol Pete's insane talent (I thought #1 insane talent), but #5's not too shabby. Looks like it's down to the Big O and the Skywalker.

wolfpackdevil
03-05-2008, 09:53 PM
It has to be Oscar Robertson at #2 and Lew Alcindor at #1

Lew was deffinatley the best over at UCLA and will be numero uno come saturday when were all biting our tounges during the duke game

Indoor66
03-05-2008, 10:07 PM
It has to be Oscar Robertson at #2 and Lew Alcindor at #1

Lew was deffinatley the best over at UCLA and will be numero uno come saturday when were all biting our tounges during the duke game

With UNC playing and ESPN covering, a shocking development, they will declare HansTravelFlop #1 :D :o

loran16
03-05-2008, 10:22 PM
Did I miss something or is Len Bias not on that list?

Bias never won a Naismith award (During that time, Ralph Sampson, Patrick Ewing, Jordan, and our own Dawkins won the award.)

His stats were comparable to Dawkins, and obviously Dawkins won the more national award (but not the ACC award).

Bias' college career might be a bit high in your mind becaus of the circumstances that ended his career tragically, and how the Celtics fans until this year always considered it the key reason they faded in prominence in the 90s. But top 25 players of college? Not even close.

Verga3
03-05-2008, 11:01 PM
Nice picks so far RW.....you just may hit it.

I was blinded by Pistol Pete's insane talent (I thought #1 insane talent), but #5's not too shabby. Looks like it's down to the Big O and the Skywalker.

OOPS....should be down to Big O and the Skyhook. My sincere apologies to the one and only Skywalker, David Thompson....Remember when DT hit his foot on 6'9" Phil Spence's shoulder and took that terrible fall. Nuff said.

blueprofessor
03-08-2008, 11:20 AM
OOPS....should be down to Big O and the Skyhook. My sincere apologies to the one and only Skywalker, David Thompson....Remember when DT hit his foot on 6'9" Phil Spence's shoulder and took that terrible fall. Nuff said.
************************************************** *************

...2. Video link:
http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3281450&categoryId=2459792

Your appropriately named Alcindor is coming up!
Best regards and GTH,C!
P.S. Hope those attending the game at CIS do not have to endure,as my wife,son,and I did 2 years ago there, the woofing of UNC students who gained admission wearing Duke clothing! Keep 'em out..."Don't mess with Dukesas!"