PDA

View Full Version : Basketball scholorships



NYC Duke Fan
02-12-2008, 03:30 AM
Why couldn't Duke or for that matter any school who is recruiting a high school basketball player, offer that player an academic scholorship instead of a basketball scholorship, thus gaining another player.? The academic scholorship would only be given to a player who meets the academic qualifications set by the school and not just given out randomly.

Black Mambo
02-12-2008, 09:26 AM
I imagine, although am not really sure, that athletic and academic scholarhisps actually come from different monetary sources. Also, if something like this were to happen, there would be too many people, like myself and others who were really hoping to get some scholarhship help while at Duke, who would be in outrage. Why, because we would "meet" the academic requirements too...as would practically every student who attended Duke. Now, if you had your super exceptional student who was also a high basketball recruit (super, as in no more and no less than your super non-basketball student recruit), then maybe...but still you'd in effect end up taking that academic scholarship away from another student for the sole purpose of opening up an athletic scholarship for a non-super academic athletic recruit. But it's Duke's money I guess...

yancem
02-12-2008, 09:33 AM
Why couldn't Duke or for that matter any school who is recruiting a high school basketball player, offer that player an academic scholorship instead of a basketball scholorship, thus gaining another player.? The academic scholorship would only be given to a player who meets the academic qualifications set by the school and not just given out randomly.

I would image that this would be a regulation nightmare for the NCAA and therefor simply disallow it to save themselves a headache.

Devilsfan
02-12-2008, 09:57 AM
I don't recall too many future brain surgeons or nuclear physicists that played BB at Duke. Great kids, granted. But academically elite, I don't think so. I would venture to say that there are hundreds of brilliant Duke students each year that somehow get overlooked for academic scholarships.

loran16
02-12-2008, 10:07 AM
I'm fairly certain that unless the player is actually qualified for an academic scholarship (very unlikely in most cases) this would be a recruiting violation.

And given that we're duke, it'd be caught by the NCAA in around 5 seconds, since they definitely monitor the major programs.

Recruiting violations=bad, and can ruin a program for multiple years. not worth it.

Indoor66
02-12-2008, 10:15 AM
I don't recall too many future brain surgeons or nuclear physicists that played BB at Duke. Great kids, granted. But academically elite, I don't think so. I would venture to say that there are hundreds of brilliant Duke students each year that somehow get overlooked for academic scholarships.

I question your point: Jay Buckly, MD, Jack Marin, JD, Jay Bilas, JD, Quinn Snyder, MBA and that is just off the top of my head. I think you understimate many of the Duke players (and college players at many schools.)

CDu
02-12-2008, 10:19 AM
I question your point: Jay Buckly, MD, Jack Marin, JD, Jay Bilas, JD, Quinn Snyder, MBA and that is just off the top of my head. I think you understimate many of the Duke players (and college players at many schools.)

There are THOUSANDS of people with those degrees who didn't qualify for academic scholarships. I'd be willing to bet that none of those players listed qualified for academic scholarships at Duke.

That's not meant to be a knock on them. Obviously they cared enough about their education to get advanced degrees. But having an advanced degree doesn't prove you were worthy of an academic scholarship.

Indoor66
02-12-2008, 10:25 AM
There are THOUSANDS of people with those degrees who didn't qualify for academic scholarships. I'd be willing to bet that none of those players listed qualified for academic scholarships at Duke.

...and you evidence for that last assertion?

Marin and Bilas are Duke Law grads, Buckley (I stand corrected, he is a PhD): Dr Buckley holds a PhD from Johns Hopkins University in Physics/Atmospheric Sciences, a B.S. in Physics from Duke University and Academic All American, Basketball. Quinn Snyder: He played for the Duke University Blue Devils for four years and led his team to the Final Four in 1986, 1988, and 1989. He graduated from Duke in 1989 with a double major in philosophy and political science, and, later received a JD from Duke Law School in 1995 and an MBA from Duke's Fuqua School of Business in 1995.

grit74
02-12-2008, 10:28 AM
I am pretty certain that the NCAA has a regulation that disallows this idea. If a player has been recruited at all by a school, the player cannot then receive an academic scholarship and be eligible to play.

This has been an issue for UNC with the Morehead scholarships. One of the 6'9" walk-ons a few years ago was a Morehead, and the press reports emphasized he had not been recruited. I suspect that was a polite fiction.

I don't know how long this rule has existed. I do know that UNC--back in the day--regularly gave Moreheads to athletes who were academically qualified.In fact, I think the Morehead charter included some recognition of athletic ability, as I think the Rhodes originally did.

As usual, I am open for corrections.

loran16
02-12-2008, 10:31 AM
...and you evidence for that last assertion?

Marin and Bilas are Duke Law grads, Buckley (I stand corrected, he is a PhD): Dr Buckley holds a PhD from Johns Hopkins University in Physics/Atmospheric Sciences, a B.S. in Physics from Duke University and Academic All American, Basketball. Quinn Snyder: He played for the Duke University Blue Devils for four years and led his team to the Final Four in 1986, 1988, and 1989. He graduated from Duke in 1989 with a double major in philosophy and political science, and, later received a JD from Duke Law School in 1995 and an MBA from Duke's Fuqua School of Business in 1995.

A good percentage of duke grads go to graduate schools. That does not make them scholarship students.

Most scholarship students at duke (not financial aid) are cream of the crop students, and thus 99.9% of any recruits we have would not qualify.

allenmurray
02-12-2008, 10:37 AM
Again, just because of thier amazing accomplishments doen't mean they would have been granted an academic scholarship.

From the pool of athletes who have played major revenue sports for Duke you have found a sub-group with amazing acomplishments. But, from the pool of people who have MD, JD, or PhD degrees from Duke, how may were athletes? How many were academic scholarships? You need to look at all of those ratios to make the claim. And again, back to the original question - Duke Basketball can certainly field a competitive basketball team with the amount of athletic scholarships it has at its disposal. In fact, you couldmake a good argument that many "bench" players at Duke would be starters anywhere else. Do we need a team of more than 13 players? If 10 of our current basketball players were eligible for full academic scholarships, and were given them, we could then use our athletic scholarships to field a team of 25. For what purpose?

The whole argument is bizarre. It is not as though Duke is missing out on basketball players because we don't have enough scholarships to give.

Johnboy
02-12-2008, 10:37 AM
Will Johnson (http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/johnson_will00.html) played basketball for UNC-CH and attended on a Morehead scholarship. My understanding is that if a player is on an athletic scholarship, it must be a football scholarship if he plays football; if the player plays men's basketball and not football, then it must be a basketball scholarship, and if he plays neither, it can be whatever sport a scholly is available in.

Apparently, anyone can play anything on an academic scholarship, as evidenced by Will Johnson. This wasn't a long time ago, BTW. He graduated in 2003 and went on to play pro basketball in Spain (http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/072703aaa.html).

johnb
02-12-2008, 10:42 AM
Admittedly, it is very difficult to get an academic scholarship at Duke. I'm uncomfortable, however, when people simply write off the academic accomplishments of our players. For one, our basketball players are probably the most sought-after group on campus (in terms of recruitment to Duke and in terms of competition from other schools)--the development of such an elite skill set takes many hours and hence could cut back one's high school grades a bit.

Second, we've had quite a few players who would have easily been Duke admits if their main extracurricular had been chess or debate. Some were, actually, physics majors (George Burgen, who I think was Phi Beta Kappa) or math majors (Trajan Langdon) or eventual doctors (Taymon Domzalski, who was at Duke's medical school last I checked) and quite a few showed up at Duke having made straight A's in high school (including such marginal players as Grant Hill, Shane Battier, Domzalski, and Langdon, McDonald's All Americans, all). I won't even go into the players who overcame huge odds to thrive at Duke (e.g., David Henderson or Chris Carrawell, guys who may not have gone to Exeter but whose progress took more drive and intelligence than that showed by the average Duke student). If they were as good at chess or debate as they were at basketball, all of those guys would have been up for academic scholarships. Regardless, though, I don't quite get the point of casually disparaging the guys who you root for in games.

CDu
02-12-2008, 10:43 AM
...and you evidence for that last assertion?

Marin and Bilas are Duke Law grads, Buckley (I stand corrected, he is a PhD): Dr Buckley holds a PhD from Johns Hopkins University in Physics/Atmospheric Sciences, a B.S. in Physics from Duke University and Academic All American, Basketball. Quinn Snyder: He played for the Duke University Blue Devils for four years and led his team to the Final Four in 1986, 1988, and 1989. He graduated from Duke in 1989 with a double major in philosophy and political science, and, later received a JD from Duke Law School in 1995 and an MBA from Duke's Fuqua School of Business in 1995.

Again, all you've done is show me their accomplishments after graduating from Duke. They are terrific accomplishments. Doesn't mean they deserved an academic scholarship. My point is that it's very unlikely that they qualified for academic scholarships WHEN THEY CAME TO DUKE. Lots of Duke grads have resumes like this, and not many of them received academic scholarships. I'm simply playing the odds here. The odds are pretty good that those players didn't qualify for academic scholarships.

You seem to be taking the stance that it's some sort of insult to say that they probably didn't qualify for academic scholarships. It isn't an insult. Duke is an elite school, and academic scholarships are offered to the elite of the elite. There are many many many great students who come to Duke (and do fantastic things after college) that didn't merit an academic scholarship when they came to Duke. So listing great post-graduate credentials of some players doesn't prove they merited an academic scholarship in any way.

CDu
02-12-2008, 10:48 AM
Admittedly, it is very difficult to get an academic scholarship at Duke. I'm uncomfortable, however, when people simply write off the academic accomplishments of our players. For one, our basketball players are probably the most sought-after group on campus (in terms of recruitment to Duke and in terms of competition from other schools)--the development of such an elite skill set takes many hours and hence could cut back one's high school grades a bit.

Second, we've had quite a few players who would have easily been Duke admits if their main extracurricular had been chess or debate. Some were, actually, physics majors (George Burgen, who I think was Phi Beta Kappa) or math majors (Trajan Langdon) or eventual doctors (Taymon Domzalski, who was at Duke's medical school last I checked) and quite a few showed up at Duke having made straight A's in high school (including such marginal players as Grant Hill, Shane Battier, Domzalski, and Langdon, McDonald's All Americans, all). I won't even go into the players who overcame huge odds to thrive at Duke (e.g., David Henderson or Chris Carrawell, guys who may not have gone to Exeter but whose progress took more drive and intelligence than that showed by the average Duke student). If they were as good at chess or debate as they were at basketball, all of those guys would have been up for academic scholarships. Regardless, though, I don't quite get the point of casually disparaging the guys who you root for in games.

Who is writing off the academic accomplishment of Duke athletes? Saying that someone doesn't merit an academic scholarship does not mean you're disparaging their efforts or gifts as a student. You can be a fantastic student and not merit an academic scholarship at Duke. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Bluedog
02-12-2008, 11:20 AM
Second, we've had quite a few players who would have easily been Duke admits if their main extracurricular had been chess or debate. Some were, actually, physics majors (George Burgen, who I think was Phi Beta Kappa) or math majors (Trajan Langdon) or eventual doctors (Taymon Domzalski, who was at Duke's medical school last I checked) and quite a few showed up at Duke having made straight A's in high school

This is kind of a silly topic. I don't think anybody is saying that Duke's basketball players haven't exhibited academic excellence. They certainly have and we can be very proud of their accomplishments. But, I agree with CDU that in all likelihood they wouldn't have qualified for academic scholarships. The MAJORITY of Duke students had straight As in high school and just because you are a physics or math major doesn't mean you'd qualify (then we'd be giving out hundreds a year). Similarly, the VAST majority of those that graduated summa cum laude or Phi Beta Phi did not have academic scholarships. Academic scholarships at Duke are EXTREMELY difficult to get and very qualified and impressive candidates don't get them. Likewise, just because a graduate went to an impressive graduate school means nothing - there were around 12 Duke grads that went to Harvard Law this year, and as far as I know, none of them received an academic scholarship at Duke. There are only around 50 merit based scholarships a year and most of those aren't even full rides (cover only tuition). As far as I know, the only full rides are AB Duke and Trinity. There are only 2-3 Trinity scholars per year and they MUST be from the Carolinas. The AB Duke is the only full ride scholarship given to people of any racial background nationwide. There are only 5-6 AB Duke's per year, and I can tell you, these people are VERY impressive....Not likely Duke b-ball players had these credentials. Obviously, b-ball graduates have been very impressive academically, but chances are, they wouldn't qualify since these are really a select few in the entire nation. The other scholarships that cover tuition, by the way, are BN Duke (only for students in the Carolinas), Reginald Howard (only for African Americans), Robertson Scholars, and University Scholars (requires financial need as well). We seem to be doing just fine on and off the court, though, so we don't really have a need to change it!

Troublemaker
02-12-2008, 11:42 AM
I don't recall too many future brain surgeons or nuclear physicists that played BB at Duke. Great kids, granted. But academically elite, I don't think so.

If true, that's more a function of a day being only 24 hours long than some inherent lack of intelligence on the part of our players. Many, many, MANY of our basketball players could have become brain surgeons or nuclear physicists if that's what they wanted to become. But they decided to dedicate their time to becoming basketball players instead. They're not stupid, they just chose a different career path, and since there are only so many hours in a day, you can't both improve your basketball skill AND, for example, study for the MCAT, take a heavy science courseload complete with time-consuming labs, volunteer, etc, etc. to become a doctor.

IStillHateJimBain
02-12-2008, 12:52 PM
Here's how Nebraska ran their famous football "walk-on" program for years.
Let's say Nebraska wanted a player from Illinois or another state, or maybe 20 players from other states but the 'Huskers already had used up their limit of 25 scholarships. Under the rules at the time, the kid could get an apartment in Lincoln and thus declare himself an in-state resident before enrolling in school. That way he could qualify for what was at the time an incredibly low in-state tuition per credit hour. Not sure what's changed but that's one way Nebraska was able to load up with so many players when Tom Osborne was coaching there.

MarkD83
02-12-2008, 01:39 PM
First, I will apologize for only reading half of the posts in this thread. So if I cover a point that has already been made I apologize.

The AB Duke Scholarship (at least when I went to Duke: Early 80's) was an academic and leadership scholarship. Obviously, a student had to have very strong academic credentials but they had to show leadership skills as well. One of the obvious ways to show leadership skills in high school is to be a captain of an athletic team. Therefore, it would not surprise me if many AB Duke Scholars or candidates for the scholarship were captains of high school varsity teams. This would include football and basketball teams.

bill brill
02-12-2008, 02:02 PM
coach K is in his 29th year at duke. he has never had a full roster of recruited scholarship players. duke has 13, the limit, this year with davidson and johnson, former walk-ons. and it was partially because of what nebraska did that the ncaa changed the rules. nebraska did indeed have a squad full of players who had been given full rides with county scholarships. no place else had the same thing. if a player is a recruited athlete, he may not get an academic grant (unless, I guess, he wasn't planning on playing).

AtlDuke72
02-12-2008, 03:38 PM
Here's how Nebraska ran their famous football "walk-on" program for years.
Let's say Nebraska wanted a player from Illinois or another state, or maybe 20 players from other states but the 'Huskers already had used up their limit of 25 scholarships. Under the rules at the time, the kid could get an apartment in Lincoln and thus declare himself an in-state resident before enrolling in school. That way he could qualify for what was at the time an incredibly low in-state tuition per credit hour. Not sure what's changed but that's one way Nebraska was able to load up with so many players when Tom Osborne was coaching there.

Bill Callahan disbanded the walk on program for reasons no one understood. He also was a total failure and was recently fired.

Richard Berg
02-12-2008, 04:07 PM
The most obvious answer is that Duke is a big place, and the right hand often doesn't know what the left hand is doing. For instance, when I was recruited for an academic scholarship and a music scholarship, neither department knew what the other was up to until I told them.


There are only 5-6 AB Duke's per year
15

dukie8
02-12-2008, 11:49 PM
this has to be one of the more painful threads i have read in awhile. first, if you are going to start a thread about scholarships, at least spell it correctly. second, why are you creating issues out of non-issues? as bill brill noted, we don't need more players and we usually have walk-ons regardless. third, the argument that some of the duke players could have qualified for ab duke scholarships because they did some nice things after duke, like go to law school or get a phd, is utterly ridiculous. what you did AFTER duke is completely irrelevant to what your resume was your senior year in high school. if you want to compare what some former players' resumes were their senior years in high school to the actual ab duke recipients in their classes, fire away. i have a very strong feeling that their resumes weren't even in the ballpark as those who won ab duke scholarships are some of the most distinguished and impressive high school students in the country. i don't know of any duke players who were even remotely in that stratosphere academically. someone like crawford palmer had 1400 on his sats and was a russian major but, if he didn't play basketball, he would have looked just like your typical duke student and hardly exceptional.

lastly, the fact that a duke grad went on to earn a jd, mba or md hardly is a sign of academic brilliance. what do you think most duke grads wind up doing? i think over 20% of my class went to either law school or med school right after graduation. when you account for everyone who went to grad school in later years, particularly business school, i wouldn't be surprised if more than half my class now has a grad degree. they come a dime a dozen.