Carolina-Clemson

[Lavabe]

WHen Clemson wins Saturday, will you still offer to ... you know?;)

Clemson has a GREAT chance. I am pulling for you (especially if your wager is still in effect)!

A Saturday night in Chapel Hill after a Tigers win could be REALLY neat!

GO KLEMNOP,
Lavabe

[rthomas]

I think that if Clemson wins this weekend, we should all meet sometime in the near future and streak down Franklin Street.

[gofurman]

Clemson just killed UVA. 5-3 ACC first half, best since 90s. Largest road win ever in league - 30+points. Notice they have Booker back (still no Stitt and Mays can hardly catch) and they have beaten' on BC and UVA.

GO TIGERS - get you some Heels on Sunday

[Lavabe]

Yes, Clemson won its warm up game tonight.

Which means if they maintain their playing ability on Saturday night ...

people will be seeing a lot of Klemnop soon.

GO CLEMSON!!

Cheers,
Lavabe

[CDu]

So halfway through, we're starting to get a little bit of separation. The top four appear clear right now: Duke, UNC, Clemson, Maryland. State would appear to be next, followed by Va Tech/Ga Tech. And then, there's the rest.

I still think we'll wind up with five teams getting in to the tournament: Duke, UNC, and Clemson will get in comfortably; Maryland will do enough to go along with the UNC road win; and State will sneak in the back door.

[Jumbo]

What's funny is Klemnop hasn't posted since March. I hope he's still lurking out there.

[Lavabe]

What's funny is Klemnop hasn't posted since March. I hope he's still lurking out there.

I thought it was just after the game in which Clemson should have won against the Holes.

We need our dose of Klemnop prior to the Saturday Night showdown.

Lavabe

[weezie]

And then all the jawflappers will bellyache about the "weak ACC" getting in too many schools at the expense of some poor deserving middle American institutions.

[norduck]

WHen Clemson wins Saturday, will you still offer to ... you know?;)

Clemson has a GREAT chance. I am pulling for you (especially if your wager is still in effect)!

A Saturday night in Chapel Hill after a Tigers win could be REALLY neat!

GO KLEMNOP,
Lavabe

Don't confuse him. The game is Sunday Feb 10th 6:30 pm FSN

[blueprofessor]

While the announcers at first stated the margin was the largest in ACC away game history, they corrected their error .They were referring to the largest margin of a Clemson win in an ACC away game.
Best regards to Duke fans.Professor of ethics:)

[dukegirlinsc]

I think that if Clemson wins this weekend, we should all meet sometime in the near future and streak down Franklin Street.

i'm down.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I think that if Clemson wins this weekend, we should all meet sometime in the near future and streak down Franklin Street.

Did someone say .......... streak!

It was officially called "The first annual coed come as you are streak on the main quad at 1 a.m.", or so the signs said that suddenly appeared all over campus that Friday afternoon. It was pre-reported on the 10 pm sports report on WDBS radio by "someone". "Someone" was also interviewed on WRDU Channel 28, in blacked out silhouette, on their 11:00 news - Lou Bello, who did their sports report, closed their news broadcast saying "Streak on!"

We (Duke students) momentarily held the (1974) national record for the largest streak, 632 students streaking ~2.1 miles in 34 degree weather, running from the JB Duke statue, around the main quad from the clock tower to the hospital entrance, to the bus stop and then down to the circle, over to Hanes House (then the undergraduate nurses' dorm), through all three floors of Hanes House, back around the Hospital (NOT through it) and back to the statue. The official count of 632 was done on the way to Hanes House. Unofficial estimates say close to 1000 students struck, including about a dozen women. There was only one injury - a spectator fell off of a tree branch while watching and sprained his ankle. Oh, one of the California colleges (USC or UCLA, I forget which) broke the 632 barrier the next night, but it was a darn site warmer than 34 degrees.

It was a very fun night. Cold, but very fun.

I look forward to watching Klemnop streak on Franklin Street Saturday night.

Did my story take this thread to the Off Topic board? Probably not! It was the leading sport at Duke that year!

[devildeac]

Did someone say .......... streak!

It was officially called "The first annual coed come as you are streak on the main quad at 1 a.m.", or so the signs said that suddenly appeared all over campus that Friday afternoon. It was pre-reported on the 10 pm sports report on WDBS radio by "someone". "Someone" was also interviewed on WRDU Channel 28, in blacked out silhouette, on their 11:00 news - Lou Bello, who did their sports report, closed their news broadcast saying "Streak on!"

We (Duke students) momentarily held the (1974) national record for the largest streak, 632 students streaking ~2.1 miles in 34 degree weather, running from the JB Duke statue, around the main quad from the clock tower to the hospital entrance, to the bus stop and then down to the circle, over to Hanes House (then the undergraduate nurses' dorm), through all three floors of Hanes House, back around the Hospital (NOT through it) and back to the statue. The official count of 632 was done on the way to Hanes House. Unofficial estimates say close to 1000 students struck, including about a dozen women. There was only one injury - a spectator fell off of a tree branch while watching and sprained his ankle. Oh, one of the California colleges (USC or UCLA, I forget which) broke the 632 barrier the next night, but it was a darn site warmer than 34 degrees.

It was a very fun night. Cold, but very fun.

I look forward to watching Klemnop streak on Franklin Street Saturday night.

Did my story take this thread to the Off Topic board? Probably not! It was the leading sport at Duke that year!

OZZIE, streaking? Now THAT is a scary thought and sight...:o

[mus074]

Did someone say .......... streak!

...

The official count of 632 was done on the way to Hanes House. Unofficial estimates say close to 1000 students struck, including about a dozen women. There was only one injury - a spectator fell off of a tree branch while watching and sprained his ankle.

So some dude felt he needed to sit in a tree to watch 988 other dudes run naked and perhaps hope to catch a glimpse of one of maybe 12 ladies that evening?

Was it Lawson?

[JBDuke]

...
We (Duke students) momentarily held the (1974) national record for the largest streak, 632 students streaking ~2.1 miles in 34 degree weather, running from the JB Duke statue, around the main quad from the clock tower to the hospital entrance, to the bus stop and then down to the circle, over to Hanes House (then the undergraduate nurses' dorm), through all three floors of Hanes House, back around the Hospital (NOT through it) and back to the statue.
...

NOT a fun night for yours truly. First, it was quite chilly. Then, I'm woken up by a bunch of yammering kids. And they're all naked! Finally thought I'd seen the back of them when they took off, only to have watch them all come running back while flopping all over the place.

Some fads are much better left in the past...

[Klemnop]

My Duke Friends,

First, I sincerely appreciate that you always remember me at my special time of year. If you've ever posted to an internet message board (and Lord knows I have) then you have at the very least a secret desire to be known and recognized. My ego thanks you for every stroke you give. :)

This year marks the 10th year that I have been reading DBR and the message boards. 10 years. For those of you who need a trip in the Way Back Machine...10 years ago Clemson was transitioning from their most successful coach ever (Barnes) to his ace assistant and future HOFer Larry Shyatt. The Tigers had been to three consecutive NCAA tournaments and returned a senior-laden squad led by Terrell Mcintyre, Harold Jamison and Tom Wideman. Will Solomon was a freshman. Oliver Purnell was just settling in at Dayton. So, for those of you who have been around here since this board was (literally) James' and we had to copy and paste our verification codes into the "bverifyp.htm" web address (weird, the things that stick with you), you know I'm a long suffering Clemson fan.

When I joined the board I was nearly 10 years out from that fateful moment when I made "the pact." And while A LOT has changed in what is now 20 years...some things always remain the same. Clemson won't be beating UNC in Chapel Hill this year. They won't be beating UNC in Chapel Hill ever. It's just not going to happen. I'm OK with it - and you all should be too. As I've said before, there's something right in the cosmos so long as the streak continues and I certainly don't want Clemson to be responsible for unsettling the natural state. It's just a game, for heaven's sake.

Would life really be better if Clemson's record were 1-fer-XX instead of 0-fer-XX? Wouldn't it actually be worse if there was just the one, single, solitary win? Somehow that seems even more ignominious than none. None is special. None is "WOW!" None is worth talking about. One is...pathetic. I don't want to be pathetic. You shouldn't want that for your Clemson friends either. We're happy this way. It's our cross to bear and it has come to fit us well.

As for streaking - I couldn't do it anyway. At 6:30P on Sunday night I'll be deplaning in Detroit for yet another week on-site with yet another client. Far, far away from the sundial which I assume still sits unmolested in front of the planetarium on Franklin Street. (For historical accuracy the official pledge was *not* to "run down Franklin Street naked" - which seems both dangerous and somewhat exhausting - but that I would dangle myself nekid from the sundial in joyful bliss if Clemson should ever manage to win.) Like all of you my life has changed dramatically in the last 20 years. Even if Clemson did the unthinkable I'mnot in a position to put myself in that compromising position anymore. Not to mention, no way I want my wife having to explain to my 12 and 10 and eight year-old why she's got to go bail Dad out of jail. (Who are we kidding? She wouldn't even come to do that. I'd be getting what I deserved, I imagine.)

Which was the beauty of the original idea. Clemson will NEVER beat UNC in Chapel Hill. That was the moment of clarity I had in 1989 walking out of the Dean Dome with my best friend (yet another constant through these 20 years.) Clemson will never do it. It won't happen. I could guarantee to do anything and I'd be safe. I just happened to guarantee the thing that seemed most outrageous to my 19 year old mind at the time. But that act is not what's important. It's the idea that liberated the idea that's important. Clemson will never win that game. And I'm OK with that. It's part of who I am now - and a part I don't necessarily want to give up.

In simpler terms: If Clemson were to win Sunday night, who would ask for me to make my annual post on the eve of the Clemson @ UNC game next year? Or the year after? Wouldn't we all lose something that we look forward to? Something that binds us together?

I'm keeping my hopes straightforward right now. Clemson needs to hold serve at home the rest of the way (vs. GaTech, vs. Miami and vs. VaTech) to insure an 8-8 ACC campaign. Coupled with a road win at Miss. State, a good home win vs. Purdue and some nice RPI/Pomeroy/Sagarin type ratings - that should be enough to get the Tigers into the NCAAs. Right now that's far more important than taking away my streak.

10 years. 10 years I've been posting here. And in those 10 years not a single NCAA game. No joy on Selection Sunday. No bracket filled out. No sneaking away from work to catch a tournament game. No nothing. See, THAT's pathetic. That's far more important to erase. So let's enjoy Sunday night, take our loss and move on. We've got bigger goals to accomplish than adding a scratch to the win column in one series.

Klem

P.S. If anyone would like to join me in the Fox "Lounge" just outside of the fountain, Main Concourse at Detroit Metro - feel free. I'll be the tall, blonde in the Clemson Basketball sweatshirt.

[Klemnop]

Not that it matters much, but Clemson has managed a 5-3 record through the first half of the season to a large extent on the strength of five out of eight games at home. The back half of the ACC schedule is far less appealing as Clemson now stares down road games @NCState, @Maryland, @GaTech, @FSU.

And @ UNC. But there's a whole other thread on that topic.

Still the last two games have been encouraging, especially with Demontez Stitt being out. I feel pretty good that the Tigers can win the three home games remaining (GaTech, Miami and VaTech) to get to 8-8. I think that, alone, is enough in combination with their other successes thus far. One (or two or three) more road wins would be gravy.

Of course it sure would be nice to take Thursday of the ACC Tourney off. And to get a relatively favorable match-up for Friday. The last time Clemson got to play Saturday of the ACC Tourney, some kid named Will Avery drove the length of the floor to hit a layup at the buzzer and crush what could have been Clemson's second ever trip to the ACC Finals. When was that? 1997? Wow!

[OZZIE4DUKE]

My Duke Friends,

First, I sincerely appreciate that you always remember me at my special time of year.

My ego thanks you for every stroke you give. :)

This year marks the 10th year that I have been reading DBR and the message boards. 10 years.

As for streaking - I couldn't do it anyway. At 6:30P on Sunday night I'll be deplaning in Detroit for yet another week on-site with yet another client.

Not to mention, no way I want my wife having to explain to my 12 and 10 and eight year-old why she's got to go bail Dad out of jail. (Who are we kidding? She wouldn't even come to do that. I'd be getting what I deserved, I imagine.)

Which was the beauty of the original idea. Clemson will NEVER beat UNC in Chapel Hill.

In simpler terms: If Clemson were to win Sunday night, who would ask for me to make my annual post on the eve of the Clemson @ UNC game next year? Or the year after? Wouldn't we all lose something that we look forward to? Something that binds us together?

10 years. 10 years I've been posting here. And in those 10 years not a single NCAA game. No joy on Selection Sunday. No bracket filled out. No sneaking away from work to catch a tournament game. No nothing. See, THAT's pathetic. That's far more important to erase. So let's enjoy Sunday night, take our loss and move on. We've got bigger goals to accomplish than adding a scratch to the win column in one series.

Klem

P.S. If anyone would like to join me in the Fox "Lounge" just outside of the fountain, Main Concourse at Detroit Metro - feel free. I'll be the tall, blonde in the Clemson Basketball sweatshirt.

So glad I woke up and decided to read the boards at 3 a.m. Welcome back, my friend. I remembered that you said you promised something besides "running down Franklin Street nekkid", but couldn't remember our board discussion from, what 5 or 6 years ago when Doh' was coach and they were so terrible. While I certainly agree that it is far more important for Clemson to wipe out the NCAA unbid "streak", getting that one win against carolina will feel like nothing else on earth for you. And even if you lost the following year, the streak would never get to 50+ again before the next win. Even the hated (by me) Red Sox duplicated their WS championship.

We'll remember you next year, win or lose, but I hope you win on Sunday. And if by some chance you were to appear in chapel hill post victory, even if it is a week or three later, just let us know. You won't have to rely on your wife to bail you out, I promise. And as for having to tell your kids what you'd done, they will never, ever in their lives be more proud of you for what you had done; sixty years from now they'll probably be telling their grandkids about what you had done way back in '08.:D

PS. I'm heading out to Minneapolis early Monday morning. Can't believe I have to go there in mid February. Brrrrrrrrrrrr.

[Lavabe]

Klemnop is one of the classic posters who make the DBR what it is. All is right in the world now that we have heard from the best Tiger fan out there.:) Klem's post is a piece that helps all of us tie in to the DBR's own history. I believe it exemplifies the spirit under which the DBR was created. We have recently been graced by a number of high quality non-Duke contributors. We may get trolls from time to time, but man, our Klemnops are great!


In simpler terms: If Clemson were to win Sunday night, who would ask for me to make my annual post on the eve of the Clemson @ UNC game next year? Or the year after? Wouldn't we all lose something that we look forward to? Something that binds us together?

Whatever happens in the game, we'd always welcome Klem's annual post! And the year after, and after, and after. It's a DBR tradition, as much as the "Status Check." We do it regardless. We are bound together in DBR-dom.

But you know, of all the teams we've played this year so far, I am actually feeling that Clemson shows the most upward movement in the ACC. They're in third place! Ten years is too long. This year will do it. To me, they're in the upper four in the ACC. Four more wins in the regular season, or three wins in the regular season plus a win in their ACC tourney 1st game should cinch it (note: none of the wins coming against Duke).

More importantly, not unlike Duke this year, they're fun to watch. And yeah, the image of Clemson fans in CIS yelling with Crazies in GTH,C,GTH is still fresh. And yeah, I don't think I see them becoming part of the new cut, bump, tackle ACC that we are becoming used to. I used to be pro-ACC come tourney time -- that is long gone. My list of can't stand teams in the ACC now includes Md, GT, FSU, BC, VT, Miami, and UVa. NOTE: UNC is a special class of hatred that is not on a par with any of the aforementioned list. NCSt is almost on the list too, as their style of play in the CIS game angered me. Wake is still awaiting judgment.

Let me be crystal clear: I will never root for anyone over Duke.

Aside from any future meetings with Duke, I do want to see Clemson win and end the 10-yr skein NOW. And it starts with a convincing win at Chappaheeya come Sunday (apologies as I initially got the date of the game incorrect). As is the custom in the ACC, when a team spells out another team's weakness, stuff happens.

I understand that Klem will NOT be streaking in Detroit this Sunday ... a wise move!;) But I hope we have some fodder for discussion come Monday morning! Remember Kerlina's motto this year:
TAKE NOTHING, GIVE UP EVERYTHING!!!

9F, KLEM!!

More close-ups of Holes crying in Chappaheeya!

Cheers,
Lavabe

P.S. Man Ozzie, ROTFLMAO. I'm going to have to have a beer after that post. It was only topped by mus074's comment.

[CDu]

Not that it matters much, but Clemson has managed a 5-3 record through the first half of the season to a large extent on the strength of five out of eight games at home. The back half of the ACC schedule is far less appealing as Clemson now stares down road games @NCState, @Maryland, @GaTech, @FSU.

And @ UNC. But there's a whole other thread on that topic.

Still the last two games have been encouraging, especially with Demontez Stitt being out. I feel pretty good that the Tigers can win the three home games remaining (GaTech, Miami and VaTech) to get to 8-8. I think that, alone, is enough in combination with their other successes thus far. One (or two or three) more road wins would be gravy.

Of course it sure would be nice to take Thursday of the ACC Tourney off. And to get a relatively favorable match-up for Friday. The last time Clemson got to play Saturday of the ACC Tourney, some kid named Will Avery drove the length of the floor to hit a layup at the buzzer and crush what could have been Clemson's second ever trip to the ACC Finals. When was that? 1997? Wow!

I think they'll win those three how games and win against FSU or Ga Tech on the road, even without Stitt. I think they'll get to 9-7 in the ACC at least.

[Lavabe]

The back half of the ACC schedule is far less appealing as Clemson now stares down road games @NCState, @Maryland, @GaTech, @FSU.

And @ UNC. But there's a whole other thread on that topic.

Still the last two games have been encouraging, especially with Demontez Stitt being out. I feel pretty good that the Tigers can win the three home games remaining (GaTech, Miami and VaTech) to get to 8-8. I think that, alone, is enough in combination with their other successes thus far. One (or two or three) more road wins would be gravy.



3 solid chances of away wins: GT, NCSU, and FSU (who now has Swann out as well).
Cheers,
Lavabe

[keithg]

"When was that? 1997? Wow"

Actually 1998 in Greensboro. It was one of the best semi-final days in a storied tourney. Duke beat Clemson 66-64 and Carolina made some ridiculous shots (Shammond Williams) to get to overtime and then handle Md (83-73).

[JasonEvans]

Klem has returned!!!


All is right in the world.

If Clemson wins at Carolina then all will be wrong in the world.

But, to steal from the great words written by Homer Banks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(If_Loving_You_Is_Wrong)_I_Don't_Want_to_Be_Right) -- if that is wrong, I don't want to be right!

--Jason "now, if only someone could only find Wheat then we'd really have a DBR reunion party!!" Evans

[Indoor66]

I miss Klem's regular reports on the status of Clemson BB. They were informative, thoughtful and fun to read. Over 10 years, all of our lives change dramatically. Now there are 3 children rather than 1, careers grow and demands on time explode. Klem, I wish you well and hope you are back here more often.

[Johnboy]

Klem has returned!!!

Jason "now, if only someone could only find Wheat then we'd really have a DBR reunion party!!" Evans

I think of Wheat/"/"/" every time I see a bass fishing show.

[wilson]

FWIW, Seth Davis is picking Climpsun:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/seth_davis/02/08/fiveforfriday/index.html

[Nugget]

Thanks for checking in.

This has to have been a very frustrating season, with what appears to be another fizzle from a promising start in the making.

The injury problems have greatly hampered y'all, and the free throw misery is inexplicable for a team with veteran guards.

Hopefully, the Tigers can hold it together down the strech this year. I think it is clear that only Clemson, Carolina and Duke have much chance (with Maryland a dim possibility) of representing the ACC with runs to at least the Sweet Sixteen. So, the league really needs Clemson to finish strong and get in the NCAAs.

Healthy and playing their best, this Clemson team could really put on a show. I hope we again get a chance to see the team that played the first 38 minutes against Carolina back in early January.

[Lavabe]

End the game at 11:16 in the first half:
Clemson 21
holes 9

[DukieInBrasil]

The Tiggers are handing it to the Holes right now. It was double digits and its down to 9 with 7:45 in the first half. Go Tigrinhos!!!

[Namtilal]

Biggest problem for Heels is the lack of desire to play D for 35 seconds. And turnovers, I guess I should add.

[Classof06]

Whether or not Lawson played, I was veeeeery interested in seeing this game because I knew Clemson was going to give UNC a game; they knew they let the Holes off the hook in Littlejohn. A UNC loss tonight would put Duke in unbelievable shape.

Clemson doesn't look like they're backing down tonight, folks. They're up 10 with 4:00 left in the 1st...

[buddy]

Hanstravel just got away with an extra shove on Rivers under the boards, then draws the foul on the next play. Ellington is heating up. Oglesby is making bad decisions for Clemson.

[DukieInBrasil]

c´mon, those other teams are being mean, making us play like we want to win. Hey, man, we´re like Carolina, or something. Can´cha juss let us win?

[buddy]

A tough, physical game--only Clemson never got into 1-and-1 in the half. How does that happen? Couldn't be homecooking?

[chattpanther]

A tough, physical game--only Clemson never got into 1-and-1 in the half. How does that happen? Couldn't be homecooking?

Clemson with 12 fouls to UNC's 6. I haven't seen a team get only 6 fouls in a half much less a team down by 12 at the half. Of course it isn't like Clemson would hit the free throws if they had the chance. Go Tigers!

[DukieInBrasil]

Tigrinhos are upp 11 at the half.
Ed. note: Tigrinhos is portuguese for the spanish word Tigritos or little tigers.

[mgtr]

In general I am not a Clemson fan, but, against Carolina -- Go Tigers!!!

[devildeac]

Hey Big Guy,

I know you are in Detroit but IF IF IF, the Tiggers pull of the W, OZZIE and I discussed an alternative to runnin' nekkid down Franklin St or standing in a fountain nekkid. We thought that running across the unc campus in an ORANGE Speedo would be an equivalent fulfillment of your 'promise' and also:

1. keep your butt out of jail
2. save us folks on DBR a TON of bail money and
3. not embarrass your offspring/family

so, whaddaya think? (reply now or just forget about it if you guys lose tonight)

[DukeBlood]

Would be huge for the Devils if Clemson won. A 3 game lead with 6 games to go.

Didnt watch much of the first half, was checking the score every now and then but really not interested in watching it. UNC isn't the same team w/out Lawson. Oh well, Take advantage of what you can =)

[Lavabe]

Klem 47
holes 36

19:32 2nd half

Losing is NOT an option.

Cheers,
Lavabe

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Klem 47
holes 36

19:32 2nd half

Losing is NOT an option.

Cheers,
Lavabe

Do you really expect carolina to lose this game? Come on now, be real. Ain't gonna happen.

[Lavabe]

Do you really expect carolina to lose this game? Come on now, be real. Ain't gonna happen.

WWKD?

Yeah, it's a nonslaught, and yeah, Booker got his 3rd.

But things happen.

Lavabe

[smittendevil]

Clemson 62-50 UNC, 10:32 to go in the 2nd.

[365Duke]

Do you really expect carolina to lose this game? Come on now, be real. Ain't gonna happen.

This is extremely negative, and will not be tolerated.:D :D :D

[Lavabe]

This is extremely negative, and will not be tolerated.:D :D :D

64-50 CLEMSON 9:58 to go!!!!!!

I BELIEVE ... beat the holes!!!!!!

Lavabe

[arydolphin]

Clemson looks REALLY good tonight, as in Sweet 16 good. On the other hand, Carolina is missing Lawson in a major way, this is the second straight game that they can't get on track offensively. Someone like Ellington has to step up for them on the offensive end, and they've had way too many turnovers tonight.

[pamtar]

Any sign of Lawson?

[feldspar]

Clemson looks REALLY good tonight, as in Sweet 16 good.

Eh. It's easy for Clemson to get up for this game based on what happened earlier this season at Clemson.

Add that to Carolina's let down from Wednesday night, their lack of Lawson and UNC's inability to play a smidgen of defense, and the outcome is not that surprising. I'm not ready to coronate Clemson right now by any means, but should be interesting to see if this game will spark them to finish out their season strong. (assuming Clemson even wins. Carolina just cut it to 9...still almost 7 minutes left)

[RelativeWays]

DANGER! DANGER! CLEMSON SELF DESTRUCTION IMMINENT!!!!

Also, can someone tell me what Tim Brando is talking about. A seeing eye deuce? WTF?

[JBDuke]

Any sign of Lawson?

Only on the bench.

[feldspar]

Clemson 79, UNC 68

3:00 left

[Lavabe]

DANGER! DANGER! CLEMSON SELF DESTRUCTION IMMINENT!!!!

Also, can someone tell me what Tim Brando is talking about. A seeing eye deuce? WTF?

Yeah, 4 fouls on 3 players after a 2nd nonslaught.

Thanks for the reality check ... WHAT'S a seeing-eye deuce?

He DID say that.

75-66 4:52 to go.

Oh please!

Lavabe

[freedevil]

Does Roy ever complete a sentence without mentioning himself?

[RelativeWays]

You do understand, that if Clemson wins, the very fabric of our universe will be destroyed. Do we want that?

[Bluedog]

Clemson now only up by 5 with two minutes left. Just turned it over thrice in a row....

[pamtar]

Refs giving this one back to the Holes.

[Indoor66]

You do understand, that if Clemson wins, the very fabric of our universe will be destroyed. Do we want that?

Aout like pushing an Easy button twice.

[ugadevil]

This game is now close enough where free throws will be critical.

[RelativeWays]

If Clemson wins tonight, Cubs win the 08 world series, guaranteed!



That, or a planet ruining asteroid collides with us before years end

[buddy]

No wonder Clemson can't win in Chapel Hill. Five point lead with 2 minutes to go, and #25 tries to force a basket instead of pulling it outside and milking the clock.

[feldspar]

Ugh.

[Lavabe]

You do understand, that if Clemson wins, the very fabric of our universe will be destroyed. Do we want that?

Yes we do. It's Kerlina.

I half expect Coach D'oh to come out from behind the stands.

Oh PLEASE!!!

[BlueintheFace]

There are some pretty annoying personalities that come with ESPN basketball coverage, but the quality of the announcers has to be better than FSN. I don't know, maybe I am in the minority in my preference for the biased yet somewhat intelligent announcing from ESPN.

This message is brought to you by FSN coverage of Carolina-Clemson- "Like a great white shark, Hansbrough's eyes light up when he is in the painted area."

???? what ????

[smittendevil]

Clemson falling apart big time now ... 3 turnovers in like 30 seconds and a big three by Green ...

[Bluedog]

Refs giving this one back to the Holes.

Free throw shooting:
Clemson 0-3
Holes 18-22

Total fouls:
Clemson 24
Holes 10

[feldspar]

Refs giving this one back to the Holes.

Jeez. Clemson's lack of focus and the fact that UNC finally decided to start playing defense (and Green decided to start shooting well) is what's happening, not the refs.

[BCGroup]

Pair of matching threes...coming down to the wire.

[mcdukefan]

9f 9f 9f 9f 9f 9f 9f 9f 9f 9f 9f 9f 9f 9f 9f 9f 9f 9f 9f 9f 9f

[RelativeWays]

The self destruct mechanism has been activated. Please evacuate Clemson now. The self destruct mechanism has been activated. Please evacuate Clemson now.
The self destruct mechanism has been activated. Please evacuate Clemson now.
The self destruct mechanism has been activated. Please evacuate Clemson now.
The self destruct mechanism has been activated. Please evacuate Clemson now.

[ugadevil]

As the Clemson players begin to wonder..."Can we win?" Not "Will we win?"

[feldspar]

Must....hit...free throws.

[pamtar]

No love for the G-Man?

[OZZIE4DUKE]

There are some pretty annoying personalities that come with ESPN basketball coverage, but the quality of the announcers has to be better than FSN. I don't know, maybe I am in the minority in my preference for the biased yet somewhat intelligent announcing from ESPN.

This message is brought to you by FSN coverage of Carolina-Clemson- "Like a great white shark, Hansbrough's eyes light up when he is in the painted area."

???? what ????

You're dissing Mike Gminski? He's pretty well acknowledged around here to be the best analyst on the airwaves today.

Grrrrrrrrrr. carolina just tied the score at 82.

[FireOgilvie]

Meltdown.

[RelativeWays]

Hate to say it but that was a ballsy play by Q.

[Bluedog]

Must....hit...free throws.

gahhhh....missed front end of one-and-one....tie game, 19.4 sec left....Clemson ball....major foul trouble; can't go to OT.

[billybreen]

Tied at 82-82 with 24 seconds left. Pray.

[feldspar]

Clemson's done. They have that same look in their eyes as last time.

[mcdukefan]

OT anyone?

[Troublemaker]

This is actually Clemson's best chance to win. Because they are such horrible FT shooters, hey need the game to be tied with them holding the ball on the last possession. Hell, UNC might foul them anyway.

[godukecom]

overtime... crap

[smittendevil]

Going to OT. Agreed that Clemson's done, unfortunately. :(

[billybreen]

Tied at 82-82 with 24 seconds left. Pray.

Overtime. I give Clemson a 5% chance of winning.

[feldspar]

Clemson is gutless.

[RelativeWays]

Coming To A Theatre Near You. Clemson Blows It Against Unc In Ot Part 2 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BlueintheFace]

Over/Under ... Carolina by 6 ????

[jipops]

Even though you could see this coming the entire half, it doesn't make it any less disgusting.

[Troublemaker]

Yeah, unless they have alien physiology, Clemson is done. Humans don't recover from that meltdown.

[pamtar]

Jeez. Clemson's lack of focus and the fact that UNC finally decided to start playing defense (and Green decided to start shooting well) is what's happening, not the refs.

Good Point.


Free throw shooting:
Clemson 0-3

1-3 for three and this game would be over!

[RelativeWays]

Clemson looks bewildered. UNC by 9, possibly 12

[mcdukefan]

When was the last time Clemson beat unc?

[Delaware]

3 points by Clemson in the last 3 minutes... what a meltdown.

[feldspar]

At least Clemson is still rebounding.

[RelativeWays]

Maybe Hansbeaker is like a great white, he just flopped like a fish.

[feldspar]

Tigers are just jacking up anything they can and hoping it goes in. Luckily a few of them have.

[pamtar]

ALOT of contact.

I saw at least 5 fouls on the last Clemson possesion

[Bluedog]

Booker just fouled out....Clemson up by 3. I still have hope!

[RelativeWays]

I know I dream of a three man team of Jimmy Dikes, Tim Brando and Dan Bonner

The G man is fine.

[mcdukefan]

Hanstravelingflopper foul Roy

[Delaware]

"Duke gets all the calls"

[feldspar]

Must....hit.....FREE THROWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good freaking gracious.

[BlueintheFace]

I can love the G-man as a Duke fan but prefer ESPN announcing as a basketball fan. Plus, he isn't nearly as bad as his colleague tonight.

[RelativeWays]

Clemson would miss a hula hoop at the stripe.

[Troublemaker]

Clemson might not even make the NCAA tournament after losing this. For their psyche, it would've been better to get blown out.

[Lavabe]

Still hanging on ... I might need devildeac's services.

Would love to see droopy lose at home to the guys in orange.

[freedevil]

I'll take the blame for Clemson losing this one. I turned on the TV thinking they'd win.

[BlueintheFace]

he's had a tough game, but I say you go back to oglesby... hit the last shot, maybe he's got one more

[Indoor66]

They are 0'fer on fer throws

[billybreen]

I'll take the blame for Clemson losing this one. I turned on the TV thinking they'd win.

I did the same.

[BlueintheFace]

like i said... Bam

[feldspar]

Wow. What a shot.

[Lavabe]

I'll take the blame for Clemson losing this one. I turned on the TV thinking they'd win.

Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

[bigj4194]

what a shot by ogalsby

[Bluedog]

oglesby just hit miracle three! but stupid hand check foul called on him at the other end...so cheap.

[billybreen]

he's had a tough game, but I say you go back to oglesby... hit the last shot, maybe he's got one more

Good call!

[Troublemaker]

Oglesby might not have money on UNC afterall. Clemson is still going to lose.

[ugadevil]

Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

When did the Germans bomb Pearl Harbor?:confused:

[Troublemaker]

Again, this is their dream scenario. Hold the ball for basically the last shot. Will they make it?

[feldspar]

1 second to shoot.

[Teton Jack]

Thanks for giving some commentary. I live in a blacked out area - TN - and the running "commentary" on the sports pages leaves a lot to be desired.

Teton Jack

[bigj4194]

2OT anyone?

[smittendevil]

1 second to shoot.

Fastest one second in history there

[BlueintheFace]

what the hell is Oliver Purnell doing?

[throatybeard]

Watching Clemson against UNC is like watching a man stick dynamite sticks up his own butt.

[BlueintheFace]

gaurd the inbounder!!!!

[feldspar]

Fastest one second in history there

The shot clock doesn't go under a minute. It was probably more like 1/2 second.

[Bluedog]

Knowing how this game is going, there's probably going to be a foul called on Clemson.

[BlueintheFace]

more bad coaching by Purnell

[billybreen]

When did the Germans bomb Pearl Harbor?:confused:

It was a reference to the best movie ever.

[feldspar]

Great defense on that last play.

2OT we go.

[smittendevil]

what the hell is Oliver Purnell doing?

Agreed. His team has really failed to execute in the halfcourt in pressure situations (Oglesby's prayers don't count). Also, Clemson's insistence in keeping with the full court press at the end of regulation led to a few too many 3 on 2s for UNC.

[billybreen]

2ot.

[bigj4194]

hopefully in double-OT oglesby will finally start hitting some shots, i mean after that last desperation one while the shot clock was running out you'd think it would help his momentum

[smittendevil]

The shot clock doesn't go under a minute. It was probably more like 1/2 second.

Which is what my comment was going to ... Clemson had hardly touched the ball before the "1.2 seconds" was up.

[ugadevil]

It was a reference to the best movie ever.

They never say that in Dumb & Dumber.

[Lavabe]

"Dean Smith would be proud."

What the .... ?!?!?!?! Brando is bugging me.

C'mon Clemson!

[BlueintheFace]

hopefully in double-OT oglesby will finally start hitting some shots, i mean after that last desperation one while the shot clock was running out you'd think it would help his momentum

He pretty much hit the only field goals in the first OT... lets just hope it continues

[feldspar]

Hansblahblahblah. Can't stand that kid.

[BlueintheFace]

Carolina by 8

[bigj4194]

all the announcers ever say is "the all american"...im so tired of it

oh and btw what an awful decision by clemson to try to throw an ally-oop

[Bluedog]

The stat of the game to me is the fact that we're in the second overtime, and Clemson has yet to make a SINGLE FREE THROW.

[feldspar]

I can't believe I wasted 2 hours of my life watching this disgusting spectacle.

Again.

[godukecom]

this is getting rediculous...
hansbrough can get a foul whenever the freak he wants

and hansblah and thompson only have 3 fouls, and the clemson post players have like a billion...
had to edit to add that last point

[billybreen]

The stat of the game to me is the fact that we're in the second overtime, and Clemson has yet to make a SINGLE FREE THROW.

That's just sad.

[blueduke59]

Anyone else find it odd that as aggressive as Hansflopper always is he rarely if ever gets in foul trouble? Has he ever fouled out of a game?

[kramerbr]

0-5 free throws vs. 22-26

Are you kidding me?

[billybreen]

0-5 free throws vs. 22-26

Are you kidding me?

Make that 1-7.

[feldspar]

A free throw!!! Clemson hit a free throw!!

[bigj4194]

talk about ft differential...there is more contact when the holes are on d than clemson's d...its such crap

[billybreen]

A walk on Hans! Maybe that's an omen. :)

[feldspar]

Holy #(@!. Clemson might just win this 'cause Hansblahblah just got called for a travel.

[mcdukefan]

Hansblabla's first walk . . . of the year . . .

[feldspar]

Another foul-out for Clemson.

[Bluedog]

Clemson looked really tired on the last possession. Stitt and Booker both have fouled out.

[Troublemaker]

That drive for Potter was Clemson's first in a long time. They had been settling for jumpers too much.

[gotoguy]

Clemson looks tired on D

[bigj4194]

hey look...more FTs for the holes

[ugadevil]

So hopeless

[godukecom]

foul on potter... bullcrap

[billybreen]

The profanity filter won't let me express my feelings for Hans.

[feldspar]

Looks like Ted Valentine is late for dinner.

[Bluedog]

This is one of the most painful games ever to watch...Clemson vs. UNC never watching again..

[feldspar]

Carolina by 8

Good call.

[billybreen]

I think I hate Clemson more than UNC right now.

[bigj4194]

game over...clemson's tired and the refs are in love with the holes...such crap

[mcdukefan]

Clems are toast . .

[fan345678]

Matador defense, leaving the three-point shooters open on the press, missing free throws, taking quick and stupid shots.

Either Purnell is an awful coach or nobody on the team listens.

[RelativeWays]

Clemson self destruct in 5....4....3....2....KABBBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOOOM!

[arydolphin]

This is just sickening to watch on so many levels. I take back what I posted earlier in this thread...I now have no faith in Clemson to do anything meaningful in March.

[Indoor66]

Clemson self destruct in 5....4....3....2....KABBBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOOOM!

They self destructed on the foul line all game long. :mad:

[ugadevil]

Clemson should just go ahead and call off the season.

[feldspar]

I think I hate Clemson more than UNC right now.

Agreed, until I saw Lawson sitting on the bench with a sh*t-eating grin on his face.

[Bluedog]

Outscored by THIRTY at the FREE THROW line. Is that a record?!

[godukecom]

how the HELL can unc have 29 free throws whel clemson has 7?
this is bullcrap

but Duke gets all the calls

[chattpanther]

They self destructed on the foul line all game long. :mad:

Even if Clemson hit their free throws it wouldn't have made a difference. Only 7 free throws the whole game. Has to be a record for a losing team.

[throatybeard]

See, this really makes me dislike Clemson more than it does UNC. The gutless display at the end of regulation, Purnell's inability to see that the press was worthless and kept leading to 4-on-2 breaks, their inability to hit a foul shot.

I disagree about the imprtance of the foul shots. If they'd hit that one toward the end of regulation they'd have won 83-82. (Or really, they'd have been up 83-80 and UNC would have had to put up a three).

All this crying about the refs is pretty pathetic.

[Bluedog]

how the HELL can unc have 29 free throws whel clemson has 7?
this is bullcrap

but Duke gets all the calls

Don't know what game you were watching...UNC had 36 fts in this one.

[CameronBlue]

Agreed, until I saw Lawson sitting on the bench with a sh*t-eating grin on his face.

You would understand if you'd ever eaten on UNC's campus.

[feldspar]

how the HELL can unc have 29 free throws whel clemson has 7?


Clemson fouled more.

[bigj4194]

such crap...the holes "never get calls"...BS!

hanssucksatlife flops,travels and never gets the calls, but if someone even so much at blinks in his direction they call a foul

9F

[Bluedog]

The thing that I don't understand is how a team that shot 14% for free throws shot 44% from three point land. Is it legal to take 3s instead of free throws ? :rolleyes:

[OZZIE4DUKE]

This is extremely negative, and will not be tolerated.:D :D :D

I wasn't being negative. I was absolutely, positutely positive that Clemson would find a way to lose, and they did. They did well to hang in until the second OT. Oh,and the space time continuum is safe.

[pamtar]

Let 'em have their little 50 year home winning streak. (Who gives a sheet, its Clemson.)

They still haven't forgotten Wednesday!!!



BTW,
Why is Hansdough such a dork? He has no celebratory style, just a guy who looks like a girl trying to look mean and tough. Tool.

[ugadevil]

What does it matter if Clemson only shot 7 free throws? They didn't seem interested in making any of them.

[mpj96]

Clemson fouled more.

Yeah but they didn't foul that much more.

[feldspar]

Yeah but they didn't foul that much more.

According to the stat sheet, they did.

[sandinmyshoes]

I remember being so happy when DBR introduced this new bulletin board system. I thought that at last it wouldn't be a pain to post and I could enjoy the board. Now, I feel like we've become TDD lite, or worse a better moderated IC.

I'd rather read the intelligent posting of the old style DBR than this variation of every other board on the net. :(

[feldspar]

I remember being so happy when DBR introduced this new bulletin board system. I thought that at last it wouldn't be a pain to post and I could enjoy the board. Now, I feel like we've become TDD lite, or worse a better moderated IC.

I'd rather read the intelligent posting of the old style DBR than this variation of every other board on the net. :(

What exactly are you talking about, or are you just whining in general?

[mgtr]

It looked like Clemson all the way, yet Carolina pulled it out. Life is simply not fair.

[Devilsfan]

Carolina very average team without Lawson.

[Pam]

The Tigers played a valiant game and almost pulled it off. I was rooting for you, but that wasn't enough. The real problem, as I see it, is that Klemnop is in Detroit. If he had been in the Chapel Hill area and able to do what he has always said he would do, then Clemson would have won. They needed that extra push of the thought of the nude run to win this one! :D

I have been posting here, off and on, for 8 years, so Klemnop had me by a couple of years, but I always think about his promise every time UNC and Clemson meet in Chapel Hill.

[Kimist]

NEVER waste the time watching a Clemson game in the Dean Dome.

[KandG]

Clemson stopped playing after May got that breakaway to make it 79-70. They thought it was over, and they literally stopped playing defense, stopped concentrating on offense, just stopped doing anything. Pressing in the backcourt and giving up those threes in the last minutes of regulation was just absurd.

They were the better team the whole game, but they started celebrating way too early.

[The1Bluedevil]

36 FT attempts to 7
14 Fouls to 31

[mpj96]

According to the stat sheet, they did.

trenchant observation, that. I stand corrected.

[upstateny]

Duke-BC, FT 33/13, fouls 14/28, not too different

[CameronBlue]

36 FT attempts to 7
14 Fouls to 31

It doesn't matter that Clemson only had 7 attempts, it matters that they only hit 1. With Clemson up by 2 in the first overtime they had their best shooter on the line with a 1 and 1 and came away with 0 points. Did UNC get the calls, sure, they were at home, it's to be expected. But the irony is that Clemson lost the game at the line, not because they didn't get to it.

[mgtr]

I don't believe that Carolina won this game, but rather than Clemson lost it.

[77devil]

See, this really makes me dislike Clemson more than it does UNC. The gutless display at the end of regulation, Purnell's inability to see that the press was worthless and kept leading to 4-on-2 breaks, their inability to hit a foul shot.

I would add a lack of patience on the offensive end to run the clock when Clemson had a decent lead.

[dukelifer]

I don't believe that Carolina won this game, but rather than Clemson lost it.
I agree- Carolina might feel good about this win for a while- but their issues on D remain. If Clemson was mentally tougher- they would not have had three horrible turnovers in the span of 15 seconds and would have hit their throws to go up by 4. Clemson lost this game. Credit UNC for hitting their throws and some big shots- but if Clemson takes care of business- this would have been two losses in a row at home for UNC.

[throatybeard]

I remember being so happy when DBR introduced this new bulletin board system. I thought that at last it wouldn't be a pain to post and I could enjoy the board. Now, I feel like we've become TDD lite, or worse a better moderated IC.

I'd rather read the intelligent posting of the old style DBR than this variation of every other board on the net. :(

Understood, but why did this particular thread move you to this realization?

[devildeac]

Hansblabla's first walk . . . of the year . . .

2nd-he was called for 1 wed. night against us and the chat room went wild

[Surfsideron]

This was a travesty! How could a team (Clemson) play so doggone aggressive in the first half, slashing to the basket, rebounding, etc, and not even get to a 1-1 situation!

The refs were pathetic the whole game. The calls that Hans gets is why people hate Carolina. The calls that are not made against him make people hate Carolina even more! If this game is called fairly, he fouls out in the first half! If refs called what they should on this guy, he wouldn't even make All-ACC much less All-America.

Clemson gets outscored from the line by 29 points!

If Carolina fans think they have a good team they are being delusional. They play no defense. Hans is pathetic on defense. He doesn't even try. If this guy gets national Player of the Year it would be the ultimate joke!

[UncleBill]

What the hell was that Ole Roy timeout after Clemson had inbounded the ball after a made bucket and was crossing halfcourt? WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT?

[buddy]

For those who continue to say that Oliver Purnell is a good coach, this game should forever end that fantasy. He has players that cannot make foul shots (all they had to do was hit ONE in regulation), who don't understand game situations, and who obviously are not mentally tough . Of course, the way they shoot fouls, why would they spread the floor? But still, they showed NO discipline down the stretch of regulation. Congratulations to Carolina for a tough win, for never quitting. But as for Clemson, I expect this loss will do to them what the "clock" game in Cameron did last year--enable them to fold like a cheap suit. But then, for Clemson, basketball is only something to fill the time between the end of football season and the start of spring football practice.

[Lulu]

So the game really, really sucked... But the only thing bothering me now is I want to know where all the outrage is with the foul discrepancy UNC has been putting up this season. For some reason, when Duke does it (especially a couple years ago), it can't be because we have better, faster athletes or our style of play... it was the refs; and I don't know which was the chicken and which was the egg, but this pretty much coincided with this new wave of outright hatred the media and all other fans had for duke.

But when UNC does the same... it's accepted... Not to mention that weird timeout Roy got at the end somehow. Sure seems like the world would be up in flames if this were Duke.

Really, there's so much contact in college bball right now that half of the fouls called are pretty much subjective.

[dukelifer]

It is clear that this is a real Sport's curse. What was the origin? What did Clemson do to deserve this? It is clear to me that this streak of losses at UNC will never ever end. Clemson had this in the bag and let it slip away in an instant. I am not sure Clemson will recover from this game.

[feldspar]

What the hell was that Ole Roy timeout after Clemson had inbounded the ball after a made bucket and was crossing halfcourt? WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT?

Roy had been trying to call a timeout since Carolina's made bucket but the official closest to him couldn't hear it. Ted Valentine saw Roy signaling for the timeout, but it took until the ball got to halfcourt for him to finally get play stopped.

[feldspar]

I would add a lack of patience on the offensive end to run the clock when Clemson had a decent lead.

Can you say.....stall ball?

:D

[Lulu]

This probably belongs in another thread, but I guess I just don't have the gall to start one.

First, let me say that judging offense based on pure points per game, imo, is plain nonsense. You should at least start at points per possession and work from there.

But here's what I've got to say about all the offensive numbers we see at places like ESPN.com which purport to show UNC's dominance...

Non counting overtime periods, in 9 ACC games, UNC is averaging 83.67 points per game. Duke is averaging 87 points per game. If we include the non-conference games then UNC average is 87.68 and Duke's is 85.8. Non-conference gimme games aren't much good for comparison though if you ask me. I only mention this because I just heard some idiot on the TV talking about how UNC's points per game stat indicates they have the best offense in the ACC. Maybe they do, but it's not because of their ppg stat.

[Klemnop]

For those who continue to say that Oliver Purnell is a good coach, this game should forever end that fantasy. He has players that cannot make foul shots (all they had to do was hit ONE in regulation), who don't understand game situations, and who obviously are not mentally tough . Of course, the way they shoot fouls, why would they spread the floor? But still, they showed NO discipline down the stretch of regulation. Congratulations to Carolina for a tough win, for never quitting. But as for Clemson, I expect this loss will do to them what the "clock" game in Cameron did last year--enable them to fold like a cheap suit. But then, for Clemson, basketball is only something to fill the time between the end of football season and the start of spring football practice.

Hey, Buddy, try actually being a Clemson fan before you go spouting off crap like this. While Purnell may not have players that can hit foul shots he's at least got players that belong on the same floor as Duke and Carolina...and anyone else in the country. And, as for his coaching ability, watch more than four minutes of one game before passing judgement. My guess is that coaching is what netted the team a 15 point margin in the first place. And your insinuation (by comparison to Carolina) that Clemson is quitters is just stupid. You want to see quitters? Watch the last 15 minutes of Clemson's game at UVa last week.

While you (and others in this thread) seem all too willing to call for Clemson's demise on the strength of one lost opportunity in OT against a good opponent after having had a big lead in the second half - I wonder if you've looked in the mirror first to see if your own beloved Devils haven't had their own meltdown this season. I seem to recall a similar game against Pitt, although maybe I'm wrong.

Many of you loath Carolina so much that you are irrational in all things. Carolina couldn't have possibly deserved to win, could they have? Would it be that hard to just say, "Good game, Carolina"...and walk away? No, not really. It has to devolve to "Carolina gets all the calls" and "Clemson sucks". As an outsider I can tell you that it's pathetic.

Even though all I apparently do during ACC basketball season is stick my finger up my butt waiting for football.

Klem

Seriosuly, do any of you read your posts before you submit them? Or are your meters really that badly broken?

[CDu]

Even if Clemson hit their free throws it wouldn't have made a difference. Only 7 free throws the whole game. Has to be a record for a losing team.

Actually, it likely WOULD have made a difference. If they hit one more free throw in regulation (especially the front end of the one-and-one late by Stitt), they might have won. If they had hit one more free throw in the first overtime (especially the front end of the one-and-one missed by Potter), they might have won. Instead, they missed all of their free throws in regulation and the first overtime, and thus were tied at each of those points.

[gotoguy]

Hey, Buddy, try actually being a Clemson fan before you go spouting off crap like this. While Purnell may not have players that can hit foul shots he's at least got players that belong on the same floor as Duke and Carolina...and anyone else in the country. And, as for his coaching ability, watch more than four minutes of one game before passing judgement. My guess is that coaching is what netted the team a 15 point margin in the first place. And your insinuation (by comparison to Carolina) that Clemson is quitters is just stupid. You want to see quitters? Watch the last 15 minutes of Clemson's game at UVa last week.

While you (and others in this thread) seem all too willing to call for Clemson's demise on the strength of one lost opportunity in OT against a good opponent after having had a big lead in the second half - I wonder if you've looked in the mirror first to see if your own beloved Devils haven't had their own meltdown this season. I seem to recall a similar game against Pitt, although maybe I'm wrong.

Many of you loath Carolina so much that you are irrational in all things. Carolina couldn't have possibly deserved to win, could they have? Would it be that hard to just say, "Good game, Carolina"...and walk away? No, not really. It has to devolve to "Carolina gets all the calls" and "Clemson sucks". As an outsider I can tell you that it's pathetic.

Even though all I apparently do during ACC basketball season is stick my finger up my butt waiting for football.

Klem

Seriosuly, do any of you read your posts before you submit them? Or are your meters really that badly broken?

Klem,

I feel for you man. My 13 yo son and I agonized over the last few minutes of regulation and the two overtimes. We were very disappointed. :( So close... Hopefuly the Tigers will rebound quickly and earn that elusive NCAA bid. That will be some solace.

[johnb]

Carolina hit some tough 3's and played defense, and it is good that Clemson can play even with the top teams, and the Tigers did hit some gutsy shots and didn't appear to quit trying.

By the end of the game, however, it does seem that they played scared and that their floor/time management was terrible. Some of that is related to Carolina having better players at almost every position, but it was agonizing watching Clemson not be able to safely get the ball across half court and take the air out of the ball. Must have been really painful for those who are actually Clemson fans, as opposed to those of us who are situational fans.

[dukeENG2003]

According to the stat sheet, they did.

Did you actually watch the game? I know you are always jumping to defend referees, but they did a TERRIBLE job this game, and in many others this weekend. This game hinged a great deal on a VERY questionable 5th foul call on Booker (after which, Hansbrough, his man, had several big buckets).

Its become a REALLY aggravating trend that the home court advantage now equates to refereeing advantage, BIG TIME (Duke got it against BC, and it made me a little sick too, this isn't just homerism). Totalling up the fouls called in all games played by ACC teams this weekend, home teams enjoyed a 76-125 foul call advantage, the UNC game was just one example of many.

I'm starting to understand why K prefers to play on neutral courts, b/c playing on road courts truly DOES mean you are playing 8 on 5 in the ACC.

[dukeENG2003]

Roy had been trying to call a timeout since Carolina's made bucket but the official closest to him couldn't hear it. Ted Valentine saw Roy signaling for the timeout, but it took until the ball got to halfcourt for him to finally get play stopped.

Yet he blew the whistle AFTER the ball was in bounded. Doesn't matter if Roy was calling for it, it matters when the whistle blows. This is not a reviewable call.

[sandinmyshoes]

Understood, but why did this particular thread move you to this realization?


My frustration at Clemson getting so close to knocking off UNC mixed with the building immaturity of the board creating a tipping point, I guess. I'm glad Klem posted what he did, so at least I don't feel like I'm the only one seeing it.

It's just very disappointing that when the board finally becomes sensible in its ease of posting, it also loses so much of its intelligence. Maybe that is inevitable on the Internet.

Maybe we need yet another board. A board where silly middle-school play on names and overwrought ranting is gently moderated.

I won't say anymore. Maybe this is as bad as it will get.

[sandinmyshoes]

Yet he blew the whistle AFTER the ball was in bounded. Doesn't matter if Roy was calling for it, it matters when the whistle blows. This is not a reviewable call.


I think the whistle blew before the ball was inbounded but nobody on the court seemed to hear it. I know I heard it, and my UNC-fan wife was screaming about it. Then the whistle blew again when the ball was near midcourt. Evidently the ref who blew the original whistle blew it again to stop play and allow the timeout. There were some bad calls both ways, as usual, but that wasn't really one of them.

I really thought Clemson played a superb game. Purnell staved off at least three previous UNC rallies with what I thought was an excellent use of time outs. I do wonder, however, if the effort to run with UNC and press them defensively sapped his team down the stretch. Even though they are deeper, with the injuries to Frasor and Thomas, the UNC players have running built into them from the first day of practice. It's even more amazing because Ginyard didn't play in any of the overtimes because of a sprained ankle.

I hope we see these two go at each other in the ACC tourney, or at least that we don't have to play BOTH of them by some trick of the seedings. If they meet again, I think Clemson breaks through. It's just so hard, Lawson or no Lawson, to win three games in a row against a team that matches up so well with you. It would have to be sweet for coach Purnell.

[CDu]

Did you actually watch the game? I know you are always jumping to defend referees, but they did a TERRIBLE job this game, and in many others this weekend. This game hinged a great deal on a VERY questionable 5th foul call on Booker (after which, Hansbrough, his man, had several big buckets).

Its become a REALLY aggravating trend that the home court advantage now equates to refereeing advantage, BIG TIME (Duke got it against BC, and it made me a little sick too, this isn't just homerism). Totalling up the fouls called in all games played by ACC teams this weekend, home teams enjoyed a 76-125 foul call advantage, the UNC game was just one example of many.

I'm starting to understand why K prefers to play on neutral courts, b/c playing on road courts truly DOES mean you are playing 8 on 5 in the ACC.

Agreed. This isn't just a Carolina thing. It happens for Duke in Cameron. It happens for UCLA at Pauley. It happens for MSU in the Izzone. Good teams at home get a big advantage in the officiating.

I think the best way to describe it is the "50/50" calls are more like "65/35" calls in favor of the home team. I've noticed that good home teams tend to get away with a little more contact on aggressive defense. They get some questionable out-of-bounds calls. The questionable block/charge calls tend to go in their favor more often.

That said, I agree with Klemnop in that this game didn't warrant a "Clemson sucks" post. They played a fantastic 35 minutes on the road against a top-10 team. They competed despite foul trouble to nearly all of their best players (Booker, Stitt, Mays, Rivers). And they very nearly won in both regulation and the first overtime. They recovered from the first UNC loss to dominate the lower portion of the ACC. As they get healthier, they should continue to be one of the top teams in the conference.

It's tough to win in the Dean Dome. You're playing against a team with one of the best players in the country. You're playing against history (in Clemson's case). You're playing against a fan base that, when they want to, can get really loud and excited. But most importantly, you're playing against a top-10 team in their place. That's always difficult.

[yancem]

Hey, Buddy, try actually being a Clemson fan before you go spouting off crap like this. While Purnell may not have players that can hit foul shots he's at least got players that belong on the same floor as Duke and Carolina...and anyone else in the country. And, as for his coaching ability, watch more than four minutes of one game before passing judgement. My guess is that coaching is what netted the team a 15 point margin in the first place. And your insinuation (by comparison to Carolina) that Clemson is quitters is just stupid. You want to see quitters? Watch the last 15 minutes of Clemson's game at UVa last week.

While you (and others in this thread) seem all too willing to call for Clemson's demise on the strength of one lost opportunity in OT against a good opponent after having had a big lead in the second half - I wonder if you've looked in the mirror first to see if your own beloved Devils haven't had their own meltdown this season. I seem to recall a similar game against Pitt, although maybe I'm wrong.

Many of you loath Carolina so much that you are irrational in all things. Carolina couldn't have possibly deserved to win, could they have? Would it be that hard to just say, "Good game, Carolina"...and walk away? No, not really. It has to devolve to "Carolina gets all the calls" and "Clemson sucks". As an outsider I can tell you that it's pathetic.

Even though all I apparently do during ACC basketball season is stick my finger up my butt waiting for football.

Klem

Seriosuly, do any of you read your posts before you submit them? Or are your meters really that badly broken?

I didn't see the game so I can't make any comments about the refs or Clemsons/UNC's play. That being said, I have read these boards for quite a while and your frustrations with posters is well placed. Like most here, I am an ardent Duke fan but I try not to get too blinded by my blue tinted glasses or my hatred of all things in the lighter shade of blue. Unfortunately, after a close UNC win many on this board seem to loose most if not all reason. There are some sane souls here and most of the time the postings are reasonable so I hope you stick around. It is always nice to have outsiders provide a different perspective and even slap us in the face once in a while when we need it.

[dukeENG2003]

Agreed. This isn't just a Carolina thing. It happens for Duke in Cameron. It happens for UCLA at Pauley. It happens for MSU in the Izzone. Good teams at home get a big advantage in the officiating.


I'd say its ALL teams at home these days, which I suppose is better than just giving it to good teams, but the level of bias seems to have gotten out of hand. I'm starting to see what I would call 35/65 calls going to the home team.

Its like they are scared of being booed, when frankly, thats just gonna happen, no matter what. Crowds will complain about ANY call going against their team (Cameron is guilty of it too, I find it kind of embarassing and whiny). The refs need to toughen up, and call a fair game.

All I can say is that I hope the trend continues for when we play UNC at home, cuz Hanstravel will be fouled out in the first half, and we'll win by 20 if we get the level of bias that Clemson was subject to last night.

[yancem]

My frustration at Clemson getting so close to knocking off UNC mixed with the building immaturity of the board creating a tipping point, I guess. I'm glad Klem posted what he did, so at least I don't feel like I'm the only one seeing it.

It's just very disappointing that when the board finally becomes sensible in its ease of posting, it also loses so much of its intelligence. Maybe that is inevitable on the Internet.

Maybe we need yet another board. A board where silly middle-school play on names and overwrought ranting is gently moderated.

I won't say anymore. Maybe this is as bad as it will get.

Honestly, I think the best way to deal with this problem is to not read threads like this completely. I know that if I read this thread start to finish I would go insane. I simply read a post here and there (usually paying attention to who the poster is) to get a gist of the ruminations and try to skip the mindless drivel. I too am glad that Klem added his voice to the chorus.

[CDu]

I'd say its ALL teams at home these days, which I suppose is better than just giving it to good teams, but the level of bias seems to have gotten out of hand. I'm starting to see what I would call 35/65 calls going to the home team.

Its like they are scared of being booed, when frankly, thats just gonna happen, no matter what. Crowds will complain about ANY call going against their team (Cameron is guilty of it too, I find it kind of embarassing and whiny). The refs need to toughen up, and call a fair game.

All I can say is that I hope the trend continues for when we play UNC at home, cuz Hanstravel will be fouled out in the first half, and we'll win by 20 if we get the level of bias that Clemson was subject to last night.

I doubt that ALL home teams get the advantage. I doubt we lose out on too many calls to UVa. If you're a bad team, you aren't likely to get too many calls. I think it happens for decent-to-good teams, not for really bad teams. Other than that, I agree - it needs to stop.

[devilsadvocate85]

I think the whistle blew before the ball was inbounded but nobody on the court seemed to hear it. I know I heard it, and my UNC-fan wife was screaming about it. Then the whistle blew again when the ball was near midcourt. Evidently the ref who blew the original whistle blew it again to stop play and allow the timeout. There were some bad calls both ways, as usual, but that wasn't really one of them.

I really thought Clemson played a superb game. Purnell staved off at least three previous UNC rallies with what I thought was an excellent use of time outs. I do wonder, however, if the effort to run with UNC and press them defensively sapped his team down the stretch. Even though they are deeper, with the injuries to Frasor and Thomas, the UNC players have running built into them from the first day of practice. It's even more amazing because Ginyard didn't play in any of the overtimes because of a sprained ankle.

I hope we see these two go at each other in the ACC tourney, or at least that we don't have to play BOTH of them by some trick of the seedings. If they meet again, I think Clemson breaks through. It's just so hard, Lawson or no Lawson, to win three games in a row against a team that matches up so well with you. It would have to be sweet for coach Purnell.

So how does 1:10 get put on the clock? The ball didn't go in until at least 1:09, you can't call timeout before the shot is made and the clock doesn't stop until under 1:00. How ridiculous is that?

[dukeENG2003]

So how does 1:10 get put on the clock? The ball didn't go in until at least 1:09, you can't call timeout before the shot is made and the clock doesn't stop until under 1:00. How ridiculous is that?

and why did they spend so much time reviewing this, yet not even THINK about reviewing the .6 seconds on the clock (that should have been .9-1 sec according to my Tivo slow-mo replay) at the end of regulation? I saw Purnell go to talk to the ref (presumably about this, but I can't say for sure) and he turned his back on him.

[Johnboy]

Hey, Buddy, try actually being a Clemson fan before you go spouting off crap like this. While Purnell may not have players that can hit foul shots he's at least got players that belong on the same floor as Duke and Carolina...and anyone else in the country. And, as for his coaching ability, watch more than four minutes of one game before passing judgement. My guess is that coaching is what netted the team a 15 point margin in the first place. And your insinuation (by comparison to Carolina) that Clemson is quitters is just stupid. You want to see quitters? Watch the last 15 minutes of Clemson's game at UVa last week.

While you (and others in this thread) seem all too willing to call for Clemson's demise on the strength of one lost opportunity in OT against a good opponent after having had a big lead in the second half - I wonder if you've looked in the mirror first to see if your own beloved Devils haven't had their own meltdown this season. I seem to recall a similar game against Pitt, although maybe I'm wrong.

Many of you loath Carolina so much that you are irrational in all things. Carolina couldn't have possibly deserved to win, could they have? Would it be that hard to just say, "Good game, Carolina"...and walk away? No, not really. It has to devolve to "Carolina gets all the calls" and "Clemson sucks". As an outsider I can tell you that it's pathetic.

Even though all I apparently do during ACC basketball season is stick my finger up my butt waiting for football.

Klem

Seriosuly, do any of you read your posts before you submit them? Or are your meters really that badly broken?

Klemnop - My sincere apologies on the game and for the poor behavior of some of our posters here. I still can't believe Clemson didn't manage to pull that one out. For the most part, they played a whale of a game. I'd like to see an ACC Tournament rematch with both teams healthy and at full strength. Illigitimi non carborundum! (http://www.santacruzpl.org/readyref/files/a-b/bastard.shtml)

[feldspar]

Yet he blew the whistle AFTER the ball was in bounded. Doesn't matter if Roy was calling for it, it matters when the whistle blows. This is not a reviewable call.

Actually, you're wrong.

It doesn't matter when the whistle is blown, it matters when the timeout was requested.

And the time on the clock is reviewable. Which is why they reviewed it.

[dukeENG2003]

I replayed it several times, and heard several whistles, but none of them before the ball was inbounded, I guess I must have missed one, as I didn't hear it.

My comment about review was a bit misguided I suppose, I was saying that its not a reviewable play to determine whether a timeout was called before the ball was inbounded, but if what you say was true, that Valentine noted when it was called from the beginning, then its not an issue of review.

However, I've rarely seen a case where the ref sees a call, and isn't capable of blowing the whistle in time. I would argue that Valentine saw Roy calling the timeout AFTER the ball was inbounded, surmised that Roy had probably been calling it the whole time, and determined that he should retroactively grant the timeout. This is why I referred to it as a case of "review" but its semantics at that point and probably not worth arguing about.

I always thought that on plays like this, it mattered more when the whistle blew. In the case of fouls at the end of the half, for example, they can review the play for time, but the clock stops when the whistle blows (doesn't it?), not when they determine the foul to occur from the replay. I thought the same logic applied to this case, but I could be wrong as foul calls are more a judgement than whether or not timeout is being called.

[feldspar]

I replayed it several times, and heard several whistles, but none of them before the ball was inbounded, I guess I must have missed one, as I didn't hear it.

It doesn't matter what you heard. I don't understand what part of this you're not getting.

The official trailing the play, who usually would have been the one to call timeout, apparently didn't hear or see Roy trying to call the timeout. Ted Valentine, who was the center official clear on the halfcourt line, did see Roy trying to call timeout after Carolina's made basket. He was probably expecting the trail official to call the timeout, but when he didn't, Ted took it upon himself to call it.

That Ted's whistle happened to be after Clemson had inbounded the ball makes absolutely no difference. Roy had legally requested a timeout within the alloted time, and Ted rightfully granted it.

But then, I'm just a homer for the officials, so what do I know.

[throatybeard]

It's just very disappointing that when the board finally becomes sensible in its ease of posting, it also loses so much of its intelligence. Maybe that is inevitable on the Internet.

Maybe so.


Maybe we need yet another board. A board where silly middle-school play on names and overwrought ranting is gently moderated.

I agree that the mods are generally too laissez-faire. Although a lot of people would disagree; any time we have a thread were we discuss some action we took, it devolves into 50+ posts rants about what unfair hard-asses we are.


I won't say anymore. Maybe this is as bad as it will get.

Nope. Wait till our [statistically probable] season-terminal NCAA loss.

[greybeard]

Carolina very average team without Lawson.

Carolina sure gets many less points off of the break and delayed break.

In the halfcourt, they play so much to Hansborough, not through him, but to him, that the other guys become much easier to defend. When Hansborough touches it, the ball is going up; very unimaginative and predictable in the half-court as a consequence. They score enough points in this mode, but the other players on the team don't get to assert themselves against their opponents and that hurts flow/momentum for Carolina.

I do not think that this shortcoming in their half-court game changes when Lawsen is present (could be wrong, haven't seen them much). It is just less significant because the rest of the team gets to score and be involved offensively in the running game.

I'd fault Roy for the deficiencies in the half court game.

[Dukiedevil]

It doesn't matter what you heard. I don't understand what part of this you're not getting.

The official trailing the play, who usually would have been the one to call timeout, apparently didn't hear or see Roy trying to call the timeout. Ted Valentine, who was the center official clear on the halfcourt line, did see Roy trying to call timeout after Carolina's made basket. He was probably expecting the trail official to call the timeout, but when he didn't, Ted took it upon himself to call it.

That Ted's whistle happened to be after Clemson had inbounded the ball makes absolutely no difference. Roy had legally requested a timeout within the alloted time, and Ted rightfully granted it.

But then, I'm just a homer for the officials, so what do I know.

One odd thing was that they put 1:10 on the clock, when the ball didn't go throught the net until 1:09! I think it was largely meaningless to the outcome of the game, but you'd think after spending 10 minutes reviewing it, they would have gotten THAT much of it right... I don't have a problem with them rewarding a timeout in general, but agree it was an odd set of circumstances.

[BD80]

Hey, Buddy, try actually being a Clemson fan before you go spouting off crap like this. While Purnell may not have players that can hit foul shots he's at least got players that belong on the same floor as Duke and Carolina...and anyone else in the country.

Klem, my heart goes out to you. It was painful watching the ending while rooting against UNC, I was thinking of how painful it must be for you. Duke had similar frustration with UNC in the 70s, no matter what lead we had, it seemed that everyone, including the players, expected Carolina to win. Eventually, with enough talent, we broke through.

Purcell has been putting together the talent. I wanted Clemson to win so that they would have the three seed in the ACC tourney and we wouldn't have to play both Clemson and UNC. Hopefully we can give Md their 4th loss and Clemson can beat Md up at their place.

I try not to dwell on refs calls, but Hansbrough won't last long in the tourney with that amount of contact, he'll foul out in minutes. In many ways the game was good for Duke, because it gives the UNC players the misguided impression they can just turn it on when they want and win the game. I do not fear Dancing Danny Green launching threes in critical situations (in caught up to him in OT)

[UncleBill]

...Ted Valentine, who was the center official clear on the halfcourt line, did see Roy trying to call timeout after Carolina's made basket. He was probably expecting the trail official to call the timeout, but when he didn't, Ted took it upon himself to call it.

That Ted's whistle happened to be after Clemson had inbounded the ball makes absolutely no difference. Roy had legally requested a timeout within the alloted time, and Ted rightfully granted it...Unless you ARE Ted, it may have been a better post if you used a few more "probably"s and maybe some "most likely"s. If you are Ted, or did a Vulcan Mind Meld with him after the call was made, please accept my apologies for offering this suggestion.

To the Clemson team, it probably looked like the refs took away their offensive advantage after a live ball inbounding and forced them to inbound against a setup defense. Most likely they would be upset due to the wording of the NCAA Basketball Rulebook, Rule 5, Section 9, Article 4, which states "The game clock and shot clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official ... Grants a coach's request for a timeout, such a request being granted only when the coach's team is in possession of the ball (this includes throw-ins and free throws) or when the ball is dead. The official must be certain the request was made by the head coach."

Or Article 5: "Recognizes a request by the head coach or a player for a timeout after a goal until the subsequent throw-in begins."

And the Exception 1 listed under Article 3a: "After the thrown-in starts, no timeouts shall be granted to the opponents to the throw-in team."

Rules are subject to differing interpretations, of course, and the refs are human and make human errors on top of that.

[Lavabe]

Klem, my heart goes out to you. It was painful watching the ending while rooting against UNC, I was thinking of how painful it must be for you. Duke had similar frustration with UNC in the 70s, no matter what lead we had, it seemed that everyone, including the players, expected Carolina to win. Eventually, with enough talent, we broke through.

Purcell has been putting together the talent. I wanted Clemson to win so that they would have the three seed in the ACC tourney and we wouldn't have to play both Clemson and UNC. Hopefully we can give Md their 4th loss and Clemson can beat Md up at their place.

I try not to dwell on refs calls, but Hansbrough won't last long in the tourney with that amount of contact, he'll foul out in minutes. In many ways the game was good for Duke, because it gives the UNC players the misguided impression they can just turn it on when they want and win the game. I do not fear Dancing Danny Green launching threes in critical situations (in caught up to him in OT)

Klem,
I am just now getting to this, after trying to get over last night's game. I know that Clemson will take UNC to the rack the next time they meet. I make no excuses; I felt that Ozzie's time-space continuum line was irrelevant, in the face of an improved Clemson team. I still hold hope in a potential third game this season.

I appreciate your long and storied history with DBR. Please continue to contribute. In the meantime, nail down that NCAA bid. Clemson deserves it!!!

Cheers,
Lavabe

[buddy]

I'm sorry if my post offended you. If you think it is wise with a 5 point lead and 2 minutes to go to force a shot in the first ten seconds of the shot clock, then Oliver Purnell is a genius. Carolina had just cut a double digit deficit to five points, and #25 (I don't have a roster) forces a shot into a double team. Just pull the ball out, run a little clock. Purnell could have helped his team by calling a time out--he had one--and settling them down. Or they could have been better schooled to understand that the clock was their sixth man if they could manage it. Even with its foul trouble, Clemson had superb athletes on the floor, and should have at least tried to get a better shot.

And what is it with a team that converts ZERO free throws in the first 45 minutes of a game. Free throw shooting is a major part of the game. Even though they got to the line only 4 times in regulation, if they make even ONE they win the game.

I really wanted Clemson to win this game. First, they deserved it because they outplayed Carolina for the first 38 minutes. Second, I want the conference to get as many bids (and good seeds) as possible. But as we know it is a 40 minute game, and end of game coaching is important. I think Purnell is deficient here. If you think his end of game coaching was superb, we have a difference of opinion.

[feldspar]

Unless you ARE Ted, it may have been a better post if you used a few more "probably"s and maybe some "most likely"s. If you are Ted, or did a Vulcan Mind Meld with him after the call was made, please accept my apologies for offering this suggestion.

Apology accepted.


Or Article 5: "Recognizes a request by the head coach or a player for a timeout after a goal until the subsequent throw-in begins."

And the Exception 1 listed under Article 3a: "After the thrown-in starts, no timeouts shall be granted to the opponents to the throw-in team."

Rules are subject to differing interpretations, of course, and the refs are human and make human errors on top of that.

Nothing that happened during that play contradicts the rule you just quoted. So, I guess we're in agreement. Ain't that nice?

[pfrduke]

It doesn't matter what you heard. I don't understand what part of this you're not getting.

The official trailing the play, who usually would have been the one to call timeout, apparently didn't hear or see Roy trying to call the timeout. Ted Valentine, who was the center official clear on the halfcourt line, did see Roy trying to call timeout after Carolina's made basket. He was probably expecting the trail official to call the timeout, but when he didn't, Ted took it upon himself to call it.

That Ted's whistle happened to be after Clemson had inbounded the ball makes absolutely no difference. Roy had legally requested a timeout within the alloted time, and Ted rightfully granted it.

But then, I'm just a homer for the officials, so what do I know.

With regard to the text bolded above, is there a point where it would make a difference? To use an extreme example, if Clemson threw the ball over the top and hit a guy who had beat all the other Carolina defenders down court by two steps, could the official properly blow the whistle after the catch was made while the player was on his way to an uncontested hoop because, in the official's view, the opposing coach called time out while the passer still had the ball? Even though 2-3 seconds of time (or enough for the ball to travel half court, be caught by the offensive player, and the player to progress further toward the hoop) had elapsed between the time the player let it go and the time the referee stopped play? I recognize that an official would almost certainly never do this, because they have common sense, but presumably under the rule you stated above, the ball could be inbounded, 20 or so seconds could pass, and just as the offensive team goes to take a shot, the referee could whistle the play dead because, 21 seconds earlier before the ball was inbounded, he saw the opposing coach call a timeout (and just didn't stop play until then).

I should say that I didn't see the play last night, so I don't know how much time lapsed between the ball leaving the inbounds passer's hands and the whistle blowing, nor did I see whether the inbounds pass had been caught before the whistle blew. In such a situation, if the pass is caught, would it make a difference? Or is it just left to the judgment of the official to decide when, even though he saw the coach whistle a time out a split second before the ball was inbounded, it would be inappropriate to grant the time out given the manner in which the action progressed on the court?

[UncleBill]

Nothing that happened during that play contradicts the rule you just quoted. So, I guess we're in agreement. Ain't that nice? Except for my observation that the timeout was granted to the opponents after the throw-in was started, and the timeout was recognized (in my interpretation of the rules, that means officially acknowledged by the ref's whistle and hand signal, but who am I but some new guy?) after the throw-in was initiated, then yes, we are in agreement.

Nice pointy ears, man.:)

[MChambers]

I'm sorry if my post offended you. If you think it is wise with a 5 point lead and 2 minutes to go to force a shot in the first ten seconds of the shot clock, then Oliver Purnell is a genius. Carolina had just cut a double digit deficit to five points, and #25 (I don't have a roster) forces a shot into a double team. Just pull the ball out, run a little clock. Purnell could have helped his team by calling a time out--he had one--and settling them down. Or they could have been better schooled to understand that the clock was their sixth man if they could manage it. Even with its foul trouble, Clemson had superb athletes on the floor, and should have at least tried to get a better shot.

And what is it with a team that converts ZERO free throws in the first 45 minutes of a game. Free throw shooting is a major part of the game. Even though they got to the line only 4 times in regulation, if they make even ONE they win the game.

I really wanted Clemson to win this game. First, they deserved it because they outplayed Carolina for the first 38 minutes. Second, I want the conference to get as many bids (and good seeds) as possible. But as we know it is a 40 minute game, and end of game coaching is important. I think Purnell is deficient here. If you think his end of game coaching was superb, we have a difference of opinion.

1. Purnell is a good coach. He's done well at several schools, and he's improved Clemson quite a bit. Plus, he's shown a lot of class. You never see him blaming the refs.

2. What makes you think his players do what he tells them to do? (Have you ever coached at any level?)

3. As far as free throws go, I suspect that many of the Clemson players really don't want to get fouled, because they are so bad at shooting free throws. (See Webber, Chris.)

[bballfan]

SURFSIDERON-I am not sure what planet you are from but Hans is one heck of a player! I can not wait until he is gone... If we had him there is no way we come close to losing a game this year. Hans is the best player in the acc this year and it is not even close as much as I hate to admit that.

[CMS2478]

Actually, you're wrong.

It doesn't matter when the whistle is blown, it matters when the timeout was requested.

And the time on the clock is reviewable. Which is why they reviewed it.

Feldspar,

I am usually with you when it comes to people constantly complaining about the refs, but I would have to respectfully disagree with you here. I don't know exactly what happened, bc I wasn't there but I disagree with your statement that "it doesn't matter when the whistle is blown." It does matter a whole lot. A coach can call a timeout until he is blue in the face, but until the ref acknowledges it and blows his whistle, play does not stop and neither does the clock. Once the ball is in play Roy cannot, by rule, call a timeout. The refs had to grant his timeout before the ball was inbounded, which they clearly didn't. If you are going to allow it to happen as Clemson walks the ball up the court, what will happen next time? What if Clemson through the ball up the court for a quick dunk......and then the refs said "no, no, no, Roy called a timeout and we didn't see it quick enough and so we are going to erase the points and allow him to have his timeout." I know this is an extreme case, but the timeout allowed Carolina to set up a press and the ball was already in play and the game should have never been stopped. I am not one of these "the refs cost us the game" type people and I don't think that call impacted the outcome of the game, but it was still wrong.

[riverside6]

Hey, a lot has been made about the foul differential obviously, so we just did an article on it (http://www.scacchoops.com/forms/tt_NewsBreaker_External.asp?NB=1068). It shows the teams with the top foul differential in the ACC, and you might be surprised who tops the list.

Ultimately, the Clemson - UNC game had two teams that were on completely different ends of the foul differential spectrum.

[feldspar]

Feldspar,

I am usually with you when it comes to people constantly complaining about the refs, but I would have to respectfully disagree with you here. I don't know exactly what happened, bc I wasn't there but I disagree with your statement that "it doesn't matter when the whistle is blown." It does matter a whole lot. A coach can call a timeout until he is blue in the face, but until the ref acknowledges it and blows his whistle, play does not stop and neither does the clock. Once the ball is in play Roy cannot, by rule, call a timeout. The refs had to grant his timeout before the ball was inbounded, which they clearly didn't. If you are going to allow it to happen as Clemson walks the ball up the court, what will happen next time? What if Clemson through the ball up the court for a quick dunk......and then the refs said "no, no, no, Roy called a timeout and we didn't see it quick enough and so we are going to erase the points and allow him to have his timeout." I know this is an extreme case, but the timeout allowed Carolina to set up a press and the ball was already in play and the game should have never been stopped. I am not one of these "the refs cost us the game" type people and I don't think that call impacted the outcome of the game, but it was still wrong.

You're right. Kind of.

I was wrong.

The important point I was trying to make is that in most cases, it matters less when the official blows his whistle than when the coach requests the timeout. There is always...ALWAYS at least a fraction of time that lapses between when the coach requests and when the timeout is granted.

For instance, Carolina makes a basket, and immediately after the ball goes through the hoop, Roy calls a timeout. The official sees the request, but before he can get air in his whistle, Clemson has picked up the ball and has begun its throw-in. Now, legally, once Clemson has the ball in its possession, no timeout can be REQUESTED. That's the key here. But, Roy REQUESTED the timeout BEFORE the Clemson player had the ball in his possession. Therefore, the timeout request is legal. So even though, in this hypothetical (which is not far off from what happened, IIRC) the whistle is blowing while the Clemson player has possession, the timeout is legal.

Such is the case with officiating, sadly. Many things go on that--to the naked eye--seem like a misapplication of the rule, when in fact the officials are doing an excellent job of applying the rules.

I overstated things when I said it never matters when the whistle is blown. Obviously there are cases when it does matter. My larger point is that you can have a situation, as I believe the Clemson/UNC game shows, where things really aren't exactly as they seem, but the rules are still being executed fairly and as prescribed.

Thanks for your comment.

[sandinmyshoes]

I thought Clemson played very physical defense, crashed the boards like mad men but then settled for jump shots when they were on offense. Meanwhile, UNC kept feeding the post but played almost no defense for three quarters of the game. The disparity in fouls was note worthy, but not outrageous given the way each team played.

As for the time out. DBR in the ACC column says, "Clemson shouldn’t be made to suffer for an official’s mistake." But would that not apply to UNC since they called a timeout when it was appropriate to do so? Was that not a mistake on the part of the officials for failing to grant it? So they corrected their error.

The refs don't get everything right, they're human like that. But after all the nonsense we had to listen to for the past five or six years it seems like we would be more aware of how it sounds.

I also have to shake my head at the fact that just a few days ago people on this board were griping about the physical play in the ACC. They even fingered Clemson as culprit while some even managed to set aside their rivalry bias to appreciate that UNC played a "clean" game against us (no doubt the setting aside of bias is easier done after a convincing win :o ). So when the refs finally call a physical team for being physical it stands to reason that there will be a foul difference.

[UncleBill]

Now, legally, once Clemson has the ball in its possession, no timeout can be REQUESTED. That's the key here. But, Roy REQUESTED the timeout BEFORE the Clemson player had the ball in his possession. Therefore, the timeout request is legal. So even though, in this hypothetical (which is not far off from what happened, IIRC) the whistle is blowing while the Clemson player has possession, the timeout is legal. My interpretation of the rules:

"...Grants a coach's request for a timeout, such a request being granted only when the coach's team is in possession of the ball (this includes throw-ins and free throws) or when the ball is dead. The official must be certain the request was made by the head coach."

seems to have the granting as the more important driver than the requesting. The request was legal, no question about it (actually, I didn't SEE Roy request it, but it seems logical and I concede that point).

Upon TiVo review, some ref appeared to chirp his whistle as Clemson was inbounding at 1:08 (chirp as Clemson player caught ball), which MAY have been a ref beginning to grant Roys Timeout, but realizing it was too late to grant it. The gameclock stops at 1:08 for about 2.5 seconds, per my mental count, then begins running again just before the ref furthest from Roy tweets and grants the timeout, stopping the clock again at 1:07, by which point Clemson had full possession and had taken four dribbles advancing upcourt. The clockmeister MAY have understood Roy was being GRANTED a timeout, although I did not see that call being made from a ref at that time (couldn't see all refs).

[Lavabe]

Beat GT
Beat NCSU

One more win gives Clemson 20 wins.

Still keeping pace in the ACC top 4.

MAKE THE NCAA's!!

Cheers,
Lavabe