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Jumbo
02-07-2008, 05:15 PM
In case you didn't notice, it took K all of two minutes to summon Jon Scheyer last night. (He didn't come out the rest of the half.) He went into the game and immediately guarded Ellington. Nelson moved over to Ginyard. From that point on, Scheyer harrassed Ellington through every screen and kept him from getting a good look. In fact, if you watch most of Ellington's open misses, someone else was guarding him after a switch (College Gamenight had a nice montage). Yet Scheyer, who rarely gets credit for his defense, got none again last night.
The kid is a fantastic all-around player, and his defense might be the most underrated aspect of any player on Duke's team. And the way he has owned Ellington in three career matchups is incredible:

Scheyer: 35.3 mpg; 17.7 ppg; 3.7 rpg; 1.7 apg; 2.0 spg; 0.3 bpg; 1.3 tpg; .405 FG% (15-37); .421 3FG% (8-19); .789 FT% (15-19).

Ellington: 22.3 mpg; 5.0 ppg; 2.7 rpg; 1.7 apg; 0.7 spg; 0.0 bpg; 1.0 tpg; .222 FG% (6-27); .000 3FG% (0-10); 1.000 FT% (3-3).

freedevil
02-07-2008, 05:20 PM
Those are awesome numbers. Just awesome.

mgtr
02-07-2008, 05:23 PM
Others have made the point as well as me, but I firmly believe that Scheyer and Singler understand the game better than almost any college player I have seen this year.

Chard
02-07-2008, 06:22 PM
I noticed his stellar D on Ellington as well. I was nervous when Jon was not guarding Ellington. Jon did an outstanding job.

Madrasdukie
02-07-2008, 06:37 PM
Others have made the point as well as me, but I firmly believe that Scheyer and Singler understand the game better than almost any college player I have seen this year.

Second that.

However, I didn't make this Scheyer/ Ellington observation - very impressive.

dukelifer
02-07-2008, 07:15 PM
Others have made the point as well as me, but I firmly believe that Scheyer and Singler understand the game better than almost any college player I have seen this year.

I agree. Both guys have great bball IQs. This really helps them in tight moments in a game. At the end of the game yesterday when Paulus was shooting throws- there was a shot of Scheyer standing behind him and he had this little smile - not gloating- just a "we outplayed you tonight heels and it is sweet" smile.

2535Miles
02-07-2008, 07:22 PM
Thanks Jumbo! Those are fantastic numbers.

cajundevil74
02-07-2008, 08:15 PM
On the miserable Raycom telecast (what a poor excuse for television production), Packer mentioned how Scheyer was everywhere on defense ... making steals, etc. He said that Scheyer's length (almost 6'6" according to Packer) caused problems. He just couldn't bring himself to say that Scheyer was athletic - which Scheyer obviously is. In fact, imo, Scheyer is a much better athlete than Ellington.

Jumbo, do you have a stats breakdown of how Duke fared when Scheyer and Henderson were on the floor together? It seems like they were great when playing together.

Delaware
02-07-2008, 08:31 PM
Jumbo... I certainly noticed the defense on Ellington... my vote for MOTM was for Scheyer for that reason and his all around game. He is just a great all around player. I felt without Lawson that the only way UNC beats Duke last night was if Ellington went off from the outside (I assumed Tyler H would get his and he did). Scheyer was a major reason for the night Ellington had and therefore a major factor in the win.

Jumbo
02-07-2008, 08:35 PM
On the miserable Raycom telecast (what a poor excuse for television production), Packer mentioned how Scheyer was everywhere on defense ... making steals, etc. He said that Scheyer's length (almost 6'6" according to Packer) caused problems. He just couldn't bring himself to say that Scheyer was athletic - which Scheyer obviously is. In fact, imo, Scheyer is a much better athlete than Ellington.

Jumbo, do you have a stats breakdown of how Duke fared when Scheyer and Henderson were on the floor together? It seems like they were great when playing together.

Yeah. Duke's best lineup -- by far -- was Paulus-Scheyer-Henderson-Singler-Thomas. It got three shifts and outscored UNC 16-3. Scheyer and Henderson played together plenty in other lineups, too, but that was by far the most effective.

Methodistman
02-07-2008, 09:50 PM
Packer mentioned how Scheyer was everywhere on defense ... making steals, etc. He said that Scheyer's length (almost 6'6" according to Packer) caused problems. He just couldn't bring himself to say that Scheyer was athletic - which Scheyer obviously is. In fact, imo, Scheyer is a much better athlete than Ellington.


Several times last night he just stunned me with his quickness and "athleticism". Although we are a deep team with a ton of contributions this year, I think that without Scheyer last night we would have lost. The guy was tangibly and intangibly doing everything.

devildeac
02-07-2008, 09:52 PM
another big time THANKS for this kind of stuff Jumbo. This is just SO educational to read and learn from before and after games. Makes us all better fans, I hope.

mus074
02-07-2008, 10:31 PM
another big time THANKS for this kind of stuff Jumbo. This is just SO educational to read and learn from before and after games. Makes us all better fans, I hope.

I could not agree more. This year's Duke experience has eclipsed even my halcyon days on campus 89-93. The depth of understanding and engagement in the success of this team's growth from last year is just flippin phenomenal.

Exiled_Devil
02-07-2008, 10:53 PM
Funny, but most of the talk on the local radio shows was about Henderson shutting down Ellington. I had assumed that would be the gameplan, but I admit that I didn't watch Ellington as much as Quenton and Hansblablah.

It was funny the way Packer could not say Scheyer was athletic. Also, he kept on commenting on how the heels perimeter was not shooting well, but never actually attributed it to good defense. Packer drives me nuts.

Jumbo
02-08-2008, 09:29 AM
another big time THANKS for this kind of stuff Jumbo. This is just SO educational to read and learn from before and after games. Makes us all better fans, I hope.

Not a problem. Just a little pattern I noticed. Thanks.

MChambers
02-08-2008, 03:39 PM
Yeah. Duke's best lineup -- by far -- was Paulus-Scheyer-Henderson-Singler-Thomas. It got three shifts and outscored UNC 16-3. Scheyer and Henderson played together plenty in other lineups, too, but that was by far the most effective.
Jumbo, did you post the plus/minus for this game? If you did, I can't find it.

MChambers
02-08-2008, 03:40 PM
Not a problem. Just a little pattern I noticed. Thanks.

Seriously, I agree that Scheyer is very underrated. All he does is win.

OldPhiKap
02-08-2008, 03:47 PM
Seriously, I agree that Scheyer is very underrated. All he does is win.

Absolutely. He is the best "sixth man" since David Henderson -- and that is saying a HELL of a lot. I also notice that, when the press is on, he is often the one bringing up the ball or handling at the top of the floor. Like most of the team this year, his contributions go far beyond the boxscore.

Karl Beem
02-08-2008, 03:52 PM
Absolutely. He is the best "sixth man" since David Henderson -- and that is saying a HELL of a lot. I also notice that, when the press is on, he is often the one bringing up the ball or handling at the top of the floor. Like most of the team this year, his contributions go far beyond the boxscore.

I'll take Grant Hill.:D

OldPhiKap
02-08-2008, 03:58 PM
I'll take Grant Hill.:D

Not to downplay one of my favorite players, but there is a difference between a freshman coming off the bench of a star-studded team (Grant) and one of the best players on our team being specifically slotted as the sixth man (Jon). Of course, given that Jon ends up with starter's minutes anyway (if not moreso) my whole point is somewhat meaningless. (Which is true of most of my points, but y'all have figured that out already).

Devilsfan
02-08-2008, 03:58 PM
He does so many things so well. It's the intangibles.

phaedrus
02-08-2008, 04:01 PM
What is it about you and Scheyer?

Jumbo is Scheyer's father, Jumbo Scheyer. I thought that was common knowledge?

3rd Dukie
02-08-2008, 04:08 PM
In case you didn't notice, it took K all of two minutes to summon Jon Scheyer last night. (He didn't come out the rest of the half.) He went into the game and immediately guarded Ellington. Nelson moved over to Ginyard. From that point on, Scheyer harrassed Ellington through every screen and kept him from getting a good look. In fact, if you watch most of Ellington's open misses, someone else was guarding him after a switch (College Gamenight had a nice montage). Yet Scheyer, who rarely gets credit for his defense, got none again last night.
The kid is a fantastic all-around player, and his defense might be the most underrated aspect of any player on Duke's team. And the way he has owned Ellington in three career matchups is incredible:

Scheyer: 35.3 mpg; 17.7 ppg; 3.7 rpg; 1.7 apg; 2.0 spg; 0.3 bpg; 1.3 tpg; .405 FG% (15-37); .421 3FG% (8-19); .789 FT% (15-19).

Ellington: 22.3 mpg; 5.0 ppg; 2.7 rpg; 1.7 apg; 0.7 spg; 0.0 bpg; 1.0 tpg; .222 FG% (6-27); .000 3FG% (0-10); 1.000 FT% (3-3).

Great catch, Jumbo. I also agree that Jon is one of the really underrated players in the country, certainly in the league.
Furthermore, that guy has a motor that just won't quit. Combine that with a great understanding of the game, a sharp shooting eye, a fantastic attitude and his leadership qualities, and you have one HELL of a fine player.

I think he is a wonderful kid and Duke is fortunate to have him. In a way, he sorta reminds me of Hurley. Not so much for his play necessarily, as much as his "won't quit" attitude.

bird
02-08-2008, 04:08 PM
Scheyer is No. 2 in minutes played right now.

Johnboy
02-08-2008, 04:10 PM
Perhaps this needs its own thread, but other posts on this one inspired this. . .

I just wanted to chime in with a general Hooray! for Jumbo. Since becoming a moderator, he has made more and better contributions to this board than any moderator has ever made to any of the boards here. I so appreciate his + and - charts, his "Phases of the Season" threads and other threads like this one where he points out parts of the game or players that casual fans or even more sophisticated fans who still watch the ball too much (like me) tend to miss.

I was a moderator on the old PPB board for a while, and to start these threads, maintain the stats and moderate like Jumbo has been doing is a real service to this community we have here.

So, Jumbo: thank you. Have a great weekend!

Karl Beem
02-08-2008, 04:29 PM
Not to downplay one of my favorite players, but there is a difference between a freshman coming off the bench of a star-studded team (Grant) and one of the best players on our team being specifically slotted as the sixth man (Jon). Of course, given that Jon ends up with starter's minutes anyway (if not moreso) my whole point is somewhat meaningless. (Which is true of most of my points, but y'all have figured that out already).

I was referring to Grant's 2nd year ('92). They left him as 6th man after he came back from his injury. He should have been MOP of the NC game.

johnb
02-08-2008, 04:37 PM
Maggette was a pretty fair 6th man, as well, though he was mainly an absurdly-talented athlete whose game had some maturing to do.

OldPhiKap
02-08-2008, 04:38 PM
Perhaps this needs its own thread, but other posts on this one inspired this. . .

I just wanted to chime in with a general Hooray! for Jumbo. Since becoming a moderator, he has made more and better contributions to this board than any moderator has ever made to any of the boards here. I so appreciate his + and - charts, his "Phases of the Season" threads and other threads like this one where he points out parts of the game or players that casual fans or even more sophisticated fans who still watch the ball too much (like me) tend to miss.

I was a moderator on the old PPB board for a while, and to start these threads, maintain the stats and moderate like Jumbo has been doing is a real service to this community we have here.

So, Jumbo: thank you. Have a great weekend!


. . . looks like someone is angling to be adopted as Jon's brother . . . .

Jumbo
02-08-2008, 04:51 PM
Perhaps this needs its own thread, but other posts on this one inspired this. . .

I just wanted to chime in with a general Hooray! for Jumbo. Since becoming a moderator, he has made more and better contributions to this board than any moderator has ever made to any of the boards here. I so appreciate his + and - charts, his "Phases of the Season" threads and other threads like this one where he points out parts of the game or players that casual fans or even more sophisticated fans who still watch the ball too much (like me) tend to miss.

I was a moderator on the old PPB board for a while, and to start these threads, maintain the stats and moderate like Jumbo has been doing is a real service to this community we have here.

So, Jumbo: thank you. Have a great weekend!

I'm blushing. You're way too kind.

Jumbo
02-08-2008, 04:53 PM
Jumbo, did you post the plus/minus for this game? If you did, I can't find it.

Here (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6701) you go.

Troublemaker
02-08-2008, 07:20 PM
Perhaps this needs its own thread, but other posts on this one inspired this. . .

I just wanted to chime in with a general Hooray! for Jumbo. Since becoming a moderator, he has made more and better contributions to this board than any moderator has ever made to any of the boards here. I so appreciate his + and - charts, his "Phases of the Season" threads and other threads like this one where he points out parts of the game or players that casual fans or even more sophisticated fans who still watch the ball too much (like me) tend to miss.

I was a moderator on the old PPB board for a while, and to start these threads, maintain the stats and moderate like Jumbo has been doing is a real service to this community we have here.

So, Jumbo: thank you. Have a great weekend!

Agreed. This season, Jumbo has taken the level of bball analysis on this board up a notch or three with his threads. All of them are very interesting to read to me and he's done a great job at looking at the overarching picture of a developing team. Thanks, Jumbo.

Re: Jon, his defense is to the point where I look forward to facing teams that have good wings because I know that Duke stands a good chance of gaining an advantage by taking away one of the opponent's strengths.

greybeard
09-09-2008, 01:33 AM
The posts on Scheyer make me want to way "why didn't I say that, or more particularly, why couldn't I say that." Apart from the insights themselves, Jumbo paints pictures like great radio men of old, or the way I imagine them. It's like Scheyer lives in the offensive players' heads, and Jumbo sharpens ours. Well done!

mgtr
09-09-2008, 12:11 PM
Jumbo paints pictures like great radio men of old, or the way I imagine them. It's like Scheyer lives in the offensive players' heads, and Jumbo sharpens ours. Well done!

I second Greybeard's comments. I do remember great radio men of old, and agree with the picture-painting comparison.

Jumbo
02-08-2009, 05:31 PM
I thought it was worth resurrecting this thread from last year. Since my first post, there was one more game -- the home loss at the end of the regular season. In that game, Scheyer played 32 minutes and scored 14 points (5-12 FG, 2-3 3FG, 2-2 FT) to go with four rebounds, four assists, one steal, one block and one turnover.
Ellington finally had a good game against Duke, playing 35 minutes and scoring 16 points (6-14 FG, 2-3 3FG, 2-2 FT) to go with three rebounds, two assists, no steals, no blocks and a turnover. That brought the head-to-head totals to:

Scheyer: 34.5 mpg; 16.8 ppg; 3.8 rpg; 2.3 apg; 1.8 spg; 0.5 bpg; 1.3 tpg; .408 FG% (20-49); .455 3FG% (10-22); .810 FT% (17-21).

Ellington: 25.5 mpg; 7.8 ppg; 2.8 rpg; 1.8 apg; 0.5 spg; 0.0 bpg; 1.0 tpg; .293 FG% (12-41); .154 3FG% (2-13); 1.000 FT% (5-5).

Even with the virtually even showing in that last matchup, the numbers are still staggering. Let's hope this trend continues.

Virginian
02-08-2009, 05:38 PM
Perhaps this needs its own thread, but other posts on this one inspired this. . .

I just wanted to chime in with a general Hooray! for Jumbo. Since becoming a moderator, he has made more and better contributions to this board than any moderator has ever made to any of the boards here. I so appreciate his + and - charts, his "Phases of the Season" threads and other threads like this one where he points out parts of the game or players that casual fans or even more sophisticated fans who still watch the ball too much (like me) tend to miss.

I was a moderator on the old PPB board for a while, and to start these threads, maintain the stats and moderate like Jumbo has been doing is a real service to this community we have here.

So, Jumbo: thank you. Have a great weekend!

I agree wholeheartedly.

bradjenk
02-08-2009, 06:25 PM
I thought it was worth resurrecting this thread from last year. Since my first post, there was one more game -- the home loss at the end of the regular season. In that game, Scheyer played 32 minutes and scored 14 points (5-12 FG, 2-3 3FG, 2-2 FT) to go with four rebounds, four assists, one steal, one block and one turnover.
Ellington finally had a good game against Duke, playing 35 minutes and scoring 16 points (6-14 FG, 2-3 3FG, 2-2 FT) to go with three rebounds, two assists, no steals, no blocks and a turnover. That brought the head-to-head totals to:

Scheyer: 34.5 mpg; 16.8 ppg; 3.8 rpg; 2.3 apg; 1.8 spg; 0.5 bpg; 1.3 tpg; .408 FG% (20-49); .455 3FG% (10-22); .810 FT% (17-21).

Ellington: 15.5 mpg; 7.8 ppg; 2.8 rpg; 1.8 apg; 0.5 spg; 0.0 bpg; 1.0 tpg; .293 FG% (12-41); .154 3FG% (2-13); 1.000 FT% (5-5).

Even with the virtually even showing in that last matchup, the numbers are still staggering. Let's hope this trend continues.

I love this matchup as well, but I suspect that Ellington's mpg is more than 15.5. Probably just a math error but if it's higher than his production is even worse.

Jumbo
02-08-2009, 08:54 PM
I love this matchup as well, but I suspect that Ellington's mpg is more than 15.5. Probably just a math error but if it's higher than his production is even worse.


Oops -- typo. Should've been 25.5. I'll fix it -- thanks for catching that!

Ignatius07
02-08-2009, 09:33 PM
Hopefully Scheyer will use the UNC game - against whom, as the data shows, he has consistently been spectacular - to break out of his slump for good. The Miami game was certainly a step in the right direction. I'm hoping to see him start knocking down his pull-up mid-range more and finish off the glass better like the Scheyer of old.

CDu
02-10-2009, 10:15 AM
Hopefully Scheyer will use the UNC game - against whom, as the data shows, he has consistently been spectacular - to break out of his slump for good. The Miami game was certainly a step in the right direction. I'm hoping to see him start knocking down his pull-up mid-range more and finish off the glass better like the Scheyer of old.

He should certainly get his opportunities, as UNC will be weak defensively against him. The scoring chances will be there. He just needs to knock them down.

Jumbo
02-10-2009, 10:17 AM
He should certainly get his opportunities, as UNC will be weak defensively against him. The scoring chances will be there. He just needs to knock them down.

Yup. It would be nice to see him create off the dribble as effectively has he did earlier in the season, too. We know he has struggled with his jumper, but that's been made worse by the fact that he's not getting easy baskets and/or going to the FT line. Attack!

CDu
02-10-2009, 10:28 AM
Yup. It would be nice to see him create off the dribble as effectively has he did earlier in the season, too. We know he has struggled with his jumper, but that's been made worse by the fact that he's not getting easy baskets and/or going to the FT line. Attack!

That could be a key. He's faced several teams with a strong shotblocking presence in the paint during his slump, which has limited his ability to finish around the rim. Carolina, needless to say, does not defend the paint well, nor do they play the best help defense in the world. Perhaps a few driving layups will help his confidence and get his shot going as well.

shotrocksplitter
02-10-2009, 11:19 AM
My friends and I have been worried about Jon most all year. He started the season spectacularly, but has since changed his playstyle.

He's started looking for the contact, rather than the bucket, when he heads to the rim. This has dramatically decreased his in-the-paint FG %, but is hopefully just a decision he needs to make to be more hardnosed again.

Slightly more disconcertingly is the way he moves on the court. He seems to be unable to move as quickly as he could. This is fully speculation, but we were thinking it could be a minor injury, maybe to his back. Yet this point is moot, as he played spectacularly on Saturday and looked to be back in shooting form (at least in the 2nd half).

I look forward to his passion against Carolina. He has always been fiery and made funny faces, but this one (http://www.nmnathletics.com.edgesuite.net/pics/800/JS/JSKSEEMNJTLPGAT.20090207214740.jpg) was a bit different on Saturday. Sure hope he has reason to get pumped again.

Jumbo
02-10-2009, 12:13 PM
My friends and I have been worried about Jon most all year. He started the season spectacularly, but has since changed his playstyle.

He's started looking for the contact, rather than the bucket, when he heads to the rim. This has dramatically decreased his in-the-paint FG %, but is hopefully just a decision he needs to make to be more hardnosed again.

Slightly more disconcertingly is the way he moves on the court. He seems to be unable to move as quickly as he could. This is fully speculation, but we were thinking it could be a minor injury, maybe to his back. Yet this point is moot, as he played spectacularly on Saturday and looked to be back in shooting form (at least in the 2nd half).

I look forward to his passion against Carolina. He has always been fiery and made funny faces, but this one (http://www.nmnathletics.com.edgesuite.net/pics/800/JS/JSKSEEMNJTLPGAT.20090207214740.jpg) was a bit different on Saturday. Sure hope he has reason to get pumped again.

I hate speculating about injuries. That said, he doesn't seem to be moving the same way as earlier in the season. Maybe something is wrong. Let's hope it's not a big deal.

MChambers
02-10-2009, 12:23 PM
at some point late in the Miami game, Jon Scheyer had the ball in the middle of a 3 on 2 or 3 on 1 break. Paulus was on the left wing; I don't remember who was on the right wing. Strangely, at the three point line, Scheyer passed to Paulus who ended up taking a 10 foot jumper, just about the worst shot you could have out of that possession. He missed, of course.

I really did not understand why Scheyer did not attack the basket, or at least make the defender commit. Or even just take a three point jumper (although that was the least of my preferences).

CDu
02-10-2009, 12:31 PM
at some point late in the Miami game, Jon Scheyer had the ball in the middle of a 3 on 2 or 3 on 1 break. Paulus was on the left wing; I don't remember who was on the right wing. Strangely, at the three point line, Scheyer passed to Paulus who ended up taking a 10 foot jumper, just about the worst shot you could have out of that possession. He missed, of course.

I really did not understand why Scheyer did not attack the basket, or at least make the defender commit. Or even just take a three point jumper (although that was the least of my preferences).

I don't remember the play you're talking about, but it depends on a few things.

If it was a true 3-on-2 break (with wings cutting with him), Scheyer should have kept his dribble until a defender committed, and then passed to the open man or shot the layup (if no one committed). If it was a 3-on-1 break, then he could have gone at the defender and created a driving lane for the cutter, or made the first pass early (to commit the defender) and set up the second pass for a wide open layup.

Several questions come to mind. Where were the wings? Was Scheyer ahead of the play, having to slow up for Paulus? How many defenders were in position, and where were they? Did one of them commit to Scheyer eary, making him pass sooner? And where were the trailing defenders? Did someone recover on the play?

jv001
02-10-2009, 04:20 PM
I look for Jon to light up unc. And I hope he guards ellington again. He plays deny defense and that seems to annoy ellington. Go Duke!