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View Full Version : The evolution of JJ Redick's 'game'; analogy to King's?



dukestheheat
01-31-2008, 06:10 PM
I remember when JJ first hit the courts for Duke and he was just lighting it up.

Then, it became obvious that he needed to develop into more of a 'complete player' than he apparently was at that time: a jump shooter.

The one thing I saw in JJ over the years that he did seem to develop was an ability to drive to the hole left or right. He also was, later, able to create more of his own shot. He developed a sort of leaning shot and this enabled him to get to the free throw line (seemingly) more than the earlier years, or so it seemed at least on the increase in free throw shooting.

So with Taylor King, who can also fill it up and appears to have more game range than did JJ Redick, how do you see him developing as a more complete player? I've seen his blueplanet.com highlights and have noted many games this year where he hit a shot from great distances, but then he gets sent to the pine for long stretches of time and K sees something going on. I'm curious as to what that is, and what he needs to develop.

So what's your view of King as he progresses through four years at Duke?

thanks,

dth.

SilkyJ
01-31-2008, 06:29 PM
I definitely see similarities in their development b/c, as you pointed out they have similar weaknesses, or areas they need to improve. Ball handling/creating their own shot is definitely one, probably the biggest. Passing/vision is another. midrange game, something JJ really developed his jr/sr year (i saw flashes of it from taylor in HS, but havent really seen it yet...) shot selection is another one, though different to develop. not something u can really do through "drills" like u can with some other skills.

one big difference though, is that with king's size, he can and should develop a post-up game. even if his go to move is a fadeaway jumper, he can definitely do that against some wing players with his length and high release point. it just can't hurt to have that as part of your repetoire and he has the size to do it, imo.

beltwayBD
01-31-2008, 07:03 PM
I used to think similar things about Scheyer. He's got a sweet, natural shot. He broke some consecutive free throw record his freshman year (#3 all time, I think). He's also a natural ball handler, and is developing his inside game more this year, both in terms of rebounds and field goals. I see him really improving and contributing more over the course of his career at Duke.

dukestheheat
02-01-2008, 12:58 PM
I definitely see similarities in their development b/c, as you pointed out they have similar weaknesses, or areas they need to improve. Ball handling/creating their own shot is definitely one, probably the biggest. Passing/vision is another. midrange game, something JJ really developed his jr/sr year (i saw flashes of it from taylor in HS, but havent really seen it yet...) shot selection is another one, though different to develop. not something u can really do through "drills" like u can with some other skills.

one big difference though, is that with king's size, he can and should develop a post-up game. even if his go to move is a fadeaway jumper, he can definitely do that against some wing players with his length and high release point. it just can't hurt to have that as part of your repetoire and he has the size to do it, imo.

that's really good feedback on King and your insight on him getting a mid-range game, and in fact I hadn't even considered that outside of getting him to drive to the hoop without getting stripped of the ball/turning it over otherwise. if he can develop that presence going forward, that'll help Duke a lot and then when he can, he can move out and pop the three ball. right now, he's really just cornered into taking a three ball from the next zip code, and if it goes in he's a hero, but if he's off and he can't play D so great and he can't post up.....well.........that's probably where Duke will take him, thanks for the insight.

dth.

CDu
02-01-2008, 01:13 PM
Redick was a little more gifted off the dribble as a freshman. He was also more adept at catching and shooting off of screens and curls. He could get fantastic elevation on his shot before releasing, which allowed him to shoot in almost any environment.

King, on the other hand, is pretty much a one-trick pony right now. His game offensively is limited to set shots and step backs from deep. He's starting from a much less diverse skillset, even if he's freakishly capable in his limited skillset.

But the general idea is similar. Redick became, by his junior and senior year, much more capable of scoring off the dribble. Hopefully, King can expand his game as well. And King does have the advantage of being a bit taller and bigger than Redick. So its possible that, if he can improve his conditioning and athleticism, he could add more aspects to his game than Redick.

That said, the improvements Redick made from his freshman year to his senior year were PHENOMENAL. He worked extremely hard at it. Very few players make the kinds of strides Redick did.

SilkyJ
02-01-2008, 01:16 PM
that's really good feedback on King and your insight on him getting a mid-range game, and in fact I hadn't even considered that outside of getting him to drive to the hoop without getting stripped of the ball/turning it over otherwise. if he can develop that presence going forward, that'll help Duke a lot and then when he can, he can move out and pop the three ball. right now, he's really just cornered into taking a three ball from the next zip code, and if it goes in he's a hero, but if he's off and he can't play D so great and he can't post up.....well.........that's probably where Duke will take him, thanks for the insight.

dth.

no sweat. one more comment:

you said he can't play D so well, and while that is probably what is limiting his minutes, and I kind of agree, at least let me say that I'm seeing improvements in his D and his overall game. Still needs to work on ball-handling and vision, it really does seem like i hold my breath when he puts it on the floor. That said the last few games I feel like what I have seem from him has been quite good. I think overall he's making better decisions and not always jacking 3s (still a little bit). Against maryland (i think) he came down and bricked a 3, but followed it up by coming back on D and taking a charge. His quickness and footwork leave something to be desired, but I really think this kid is working hard to improve and is going to help us out THIS year. we all know how good his attitude is from seeing him lead cheering efforts from our bench.

Ignatius07
02-01-2008, 01:28 PM
I actually watched the Maryland game a second time and was left wondering why King was benched in the second half. I am not a King apologist that thinks he should be getting minutes regardless of how he plays - last night, for instance, it just wasn't happening for him. But against Maryland, he did brick a couple 3s, but made some nice plays on defense, including a charge (which SilkyJ mentions), a slap-away of a ball from his defender, and a few good rebounds. Not sure what happened there.

King certainly has improved his rebounding and defense from the first few games, but it seems like he might get stuck on the bench during the ACC season, as some predicted. Frankly I'm a little surprised that K seems so reluctant to even use King in spot duty in the post at the end of games. It seems like it would help the Singler/Lance/McClure rotation because they seem to be perpetually in foul trouble at the end of games, and they need their rest too. I don't think any of us wants a situation where our "post" guys foul out with a few minutes left in the game and we are then forced to put King in to close the game.

dukestheheat
02-01-2008, 01:32 PM
I actually watched the Maryland game a second time and was left wondering why King was benched in the second half. I am not a King apologist that thinks he should be getting minutes regardless of how he plays - last night, for instance, it just wasn't happening for him. But against Maryland, he did brick a couple 3s, but made some nice plays on defense, including a charge (which SilkyJ mentions), a slap-away of a ball from his defender, and a few good rebounds. Not sure what happened there.

King certainly has improved his rebounding and defense from the first few games, but it seems like he might get stuck on the bench during the ACC season, as some predicted. Frankly I'm a little surprised that K seems so reluctant to even use King in spot duty in the post at the end of games. It seems like it would help the Singler/Lance/McClure rotation because they seem to be perpetually in foul trouble at the end of games, and they need their rest too. I don't think any of us wants a situation where our "post" guys foul out with a few minutes left in the game and we are then forced to put King in to close the game.

So, I totally agree on our inside players, Singler/Lance/McClure, being saddled with fouls in games and that's because all other teams are working very hard to exploit our supposed 'Achille's Heel' in that area of our game; here's hoping that we can just figure a way to get Taylor King into the game and have him give us 9-12 points per game. We do that are we are going a very long way this year in the NCAA's.

dth.

greybeard
02-01-2008, 01:32 PM
I think that K's concepts for King on offense this year are limited. In fact, there are only tow: he is in their to spread the defense, shoot it from deep, and to not throw the thing into the fifth row. If he does the first when he arrives on the court he gets to stay unless he does the second, in which case he sits, for a long, long time.

I do not think that K has deployed King to post up, or to shoot from mid-range. So, I doubt that you will see him posting up at all this season, and, unfortunately, when he ends up in the mid-range, can seem like he did last night as a doe with her eyes caught in the headlights. That, I'd have to think, will not happen again; but then again, I thought the same about the long passes.

King is being asked to do a very difficult thing for a guy of his apparent temperment: to scale back his aggressiveness and play on the perimeter away from the action on offense. My sense is that, given free reign to mix it up, he'd show the skills that many hope to see. For now, however, inside play, except for Singler, and mid-range play, is the exclusive realm of the slashers, of which this team has four, and King is not one of them.

King is a much tougher ballplayer than JJ, and much more the few spirit. JJ was a terrifically, terrifically hard worker and developed a game around a jump shot which, as I've said before, is the best that the college game has ever known.

If King succeeds in this game the way we all hope, I do not think that his game will resemble JJ's.

ArtVandelay
02-01-2008, 02:00 PM
Redick was a little more gifted off the dribble as a freshman. He was also more adept at catching and shooting off of screens and curls. He could get fantastic elevation on his shot before releasing, which allowed him to shoot in almost any environment.

King, on the other hand, is pretty much a one-trick pony right now. His game offensively is limited to set shots and step backs from deep. He's starting from a much less diverse skillset, even if he's freakishly capable in his limited skillset.



This is on point, IMO. Yes, King needs to develop more of an all-around offensive game. However, one step at a time here. I think we're a ways away from worrying about Taylor developing a dribble-drive game. First I think he just needs to even learn to maximize his skill - shooting. As CDu pointed out, JJ was always very good at moving without the ball and getting open on curls to get his shot off, even as a freshman. Taylor could exploit his weapon even more if he can improve on working for his shot, and not just waiting for it to come to him off a pick and pop or when he happens to be left all alone.

loran16
02-01-2008, 02:59 PM
No. You cannot compare the two.

Here's the problem. JJ was a shooting guard who had the typical body for it in college. He's 6'4'', 190. He was able to move around to find a shot as well as to defend opposing guards. Originally, his best aspect was his shot, but he was able to built up these secondary skills (finding a shot and setting up a play, playing D on opposing guards) so as to make him the star that he was.

Now take Taylor King: 6'6", 230. Weightwise, he's the biggest non-Zoubek player on the team (Lance is 220 as is Singler). And he's listed as a forward (i'm assuming they consider his position small forward, but with our team all the forwards have had to pick it up inside as well).

But his greatest (and perhaps only) standout talent is hitting long range shots (He can't even hit Free Throws). But his size limits his mobility. He can't get open for shots like JJ could (Essentially, most of his points come from good passing after a defender leaves him or from far out before he's defended properly). He can't pass like JJ was able to, and his mobility limits his defense substantially. Moreover his size is such that he's supposed to play forward, and he can't play inside well at all.

The problem with King is that he wants to be a 3 point shooter like JJ, but his body is not built for it. He either needs to develop as a forward (involving playing the post, driving more, defending interior defenders), or lose some weight ( 20 pounds would be good, 210 wouldnt be unreasonable) and slip into the guard position (still a big guard).

Neither of which is likely to happen this season. But until one of these things happens, King is not getting any better than he is now. And he should ride the bench because of it.

SilkyJ
02-01-2008, 03:31 PM
I do not think that K has deployed King to post up, or to shoot from mid-range. So, I doubt that you will see him posting up at all this season, and, unfortunately, when he ends up in the mid-range, can seem like he did last night as a doe with her eyes caught in the headlights. That, I'd have to think, will not happen again; but then again, I thought the same about the long passes.

I totally agree that we will not see him using the mid-range or post-up game anytime soon. at least not with any kind of regularity. just to be clear I was saying that I think he CAN do these things EVENTUALLY. they are skills/aspects of his game he needs to improve.

also, I think it was taylor who turned down a semi-open shot and made a nice skip pass to an open hendo which turned into an open 3 point look. (i may be wrong about taylor making that pass and what the final result of the play was, but I do specifically remember that someone turned down a pretty open look and skipped it to hendo. if it was king, than i think its illustrative of his development. not a huge thing, but he is slowly but surely improving, and i like it.)


First I think he just needs to even learn to maximize his skill - shooting. As CDu pointed out, JJ was always very good at moving without the ball and getting open on curls to get his shot off, even as a freshman. Taylor could exploit his weapon even more if he can improve on working for his shot, and not just waiting for it to come to him off a pick and pop or when he happens to be left all alone.

I do agree, but JJ improved his ability to come off curls dramatically from fresh to senior year. by senior year he was catching the ball and jumping while facing away from the basket, squaring in the air, and dropping it. he was definitely light years ahead of taylor at this stage (in terms of coming off screens) but at the same time we aren't utilizing taylor in the way. we use taylor as a screener, not a screenee.


No. You cannot compare the two.

Here's the problem. JJ was a shooting guard who had the typical body for it in college. He's 6'4'', 190. He was able to move around to find a shot as well as to defend opposing guards. Originally, his best aspect was his shot, but he was able to built up these secondary skills (finding a shot and setting up a play, playing D on opposing guards) so as to make him the star that he was.

Now take Taylor King: 6'6", 230. Weightwise, he's the biggest non-Zoubek player on the team (Lance is 220 as is Singler). And he's listed as a forward (i'm assuming they consider his position small forward, but with our team all the forwards have had to pick it up inside as well).

But his greatest (and perhaps only) standout talent is hitting long range shots (He can't even hit Free Throws). But his size limits his mobility. He can't get open for shots like JJ could (Essentially, most of his points come from good passing after a defender leaves him or from far out before he's defended properly). He can't pass like JJ was able to, and his mobility limits his defense substantially. Moreover his size is such that he's supposed to play forward, and he can't play inside well at all.


I think your're missing the point. We're talking about comparing the development of their skill sets. you're comparing their size as freshman. Do you believe that b/c taylor is bigger than JJ and plays forward not guard he can't or won't develop a dribble-drive or midrange game like JJ did?

I'm not saying they are identical players, cause they aren't, but the question is will the development of their skill sets be similar, and I think the answer is yes. Also, its SIMILAR, not identical. Or maybe the word he used is "analogous" but I think the point is (and DTH, correct me if I'm wrong) that there will be similarities in the development of their games. In its simplest terms: when they arrived at duke both of their strengths were spot-up, 3 point, jump shots. JJ could also come off screens, but he was still a 3 point shooter who wasnt a real threat to drive, and didnt have much of a mid-range game, and didnt handle the ball all that well. I think we could say the same for taylor, and I certainly hope he improves those aspects of his game as JJ did.

Also, as I said, I hope he develops a post-up game. if he does that will be different than JJ, but thats only one area. He needs to work on ball-handling, decision making/shot selection, and mid-range shooting just like JJ.

loran16
02-01-2008, 03:37 PM
I think your're missing the point. We're talking about comparing the development of their skill sets, not the players. Basically what your saying is that b/c taylor is bigger than JJ and plays forward not guard he can't develop a dribble-drive or midrange game like JJ did?

I'm not saying they are identical, cause they aren't, but the question is will the development of their skill sets be similar, and I think the answer is yes. Also, its SIMILAR, not identical. Or maybe the word he used is "analogous" but I think the point is (and DTH, correct me if I'm wrong) that there will be similarities in the development of their games. In its simplest terms: when they arrived at duke both of their strengths were spot-up, 3 point, jump shots. JJ could also come off screens, but he was still a 3 point shooter who wasnt a real threat to drive, and didnt have much of a mid-range game, and didnt handle the ball all that well. I think we could say the same for taylor, and I certainly hope he improves those aspects of his game as JJ did.

Also, as I said, I hope he develops a post-up game. if he does that will be different than JJ, but thats only one area. He needs to work on ball-handling, decision making/shot selection, and mid-range shooting just like JJ.

Yes, Yes I am saying that. His size and mobility are the key parts of who Taylor King is, and they make his development hugely different from JJ's. They limit a player's development options.

He can either become smaller or needs to gain the skillsets that big players have, which he currently lacks. Option #1 would put him closer to a path where he could learn the skills you are talking about. Option #2, is clearly not.

And i don't see him losing the weight. Therefore imo, threads comparing his development to JJ's are mostly stemming from hopeful optimism about a player who can never be what you're talking about, and him following that track will only lead to a mediocre player at best by senior year.

greybeard
02-01-2008, 04:49 PM
Silky, I get you completely, and, while you have seen more of him than me (I often finds myself working late; wonder why), where I think I differ with you is on the extent to which we are actually seeing Taylor's current skill base.

My point is that it might be K, and not Taylor, who is calling the shots (I liked that pun, I mean, really). So, for example, it sounded from this summer's postings that the kid had an all-around game including an inside one, at least as I remember it. My thinking is that maybe K would prefer to keep a guy of his size, who when he spreads out to receive takes up lots of space, away from the lane, even though he, King, might be able to create play from that position.

I'd like to hope that, even while he finds himself in strange territory (both on the court and getting short minutes depending on whether he can in short order hit from deep), he will adjust and make better use of mid-range opportunities when they present, as last night.

I think that Taylor is in a tough position because of the extraordinary attacking talent that this team possesses. I admire the energy he shows on the bench; it bespeaks a confidence that everything will turn out for the best. Seems like a quality guy.

SilkyJ
02-01-2008, 05:30 PM
Yes, Yes I am saying that. His size and mobility are the key parts of who Taylor King is, and they make his development hugely different from JJ's. They limit a player's development options.

He can either become smaller or needs to gain the skillsets that big players have, which he currently lacks. Option #1 would put him closer to a path where he could learn the skills you are talking about. Option #2, is clearly not.

And i don't see him losing the weight. Therefore imo, threads comparing his development to JJ's are mostly stemming from hopeful optimism about a player who can never be what you're talking about, and him following that track will only lead to a mediocre player at best by senior year.

Thanks. I understand you a little better now. I def agree that some weight loss will go a long way, and may even be necessary for the development of "option 1" or "guard skills" but there are several flaws in your argument, imo.

Not the least of which is that K likes to develop ALL aspects of ALL his players games. Sure he may not have the Shelden Williams and Carlos Boozers of the world doing as much work on their cross-over as the guards, but as he often says he want his players to be just that, PLAYERS. In fact, he used this term to describe taylor specifically saying he doesn't want taylor to be just a shooter but a player. So with that in mind, I think that would indicate that he will develop ALL aspects of his game that are relevant (I say "relevant" b/c, Coach K probably doesn;t work with say greg or nolan that much on their post Defense b/c rarely will they guard the post) So to think that K won't work with a great shooter like taylor on how to get his own shot off the dribble be a good passer, seems pretty crazy. It would be a waste of talent, and thats not exactly what K is known for.

Secondly, something you said below is flawed, imo: "He either needs to develop as a forward (involving playing the post, driving more...or slip into the guard position" In fairness to you, you are being quite consistent with seeing two tracks for him. But you said he needs to drive more as a "forward" which would be your "option 2" above. Yet you say that the more "guard like skills" I mention fall into your "option 1" Well wouldn't you say that to improve one's driving abilities, one would need to work on those guard like skills I mentioned like ball handling at a minimum, as well as vision and passing so you can be effective when driving and have the option to shoot or pass?

ALSO, in that same sentence you say "he either needs to develop as a forward (involving playing the post, driving more, defending interior defenders" are you suggesting that he isn't defending interior players. To this point, taylor has ONLY guarded interior players. He plays the 4 most of the time, and has played the 5 some of the time. BUT, just b/c you defend on the interior doesn't mean you have to play in the interior on offense. Look at kyle: he has all the thing we are talking about: he can shoot from deep, has a midrange game and a dribble drive game.

at the end of the day, we may have to agree to disagree as I see him losing weight and becoming more of a pure 3 and you clearly see him continuing life in the post...(part of my reasoning is that at the pro level he won't be able to play in the post)



The problem with King is that he wants to be a 3 point shooter like JJ, but his body is not built for it. He either needs to develop as a forward (involving playing the post, driving more, defending interior defenders), or lose some weight ( 20 pounds would be good, 210 wouldnt be unreasonable) and slip into the guard position (still a big guard).



Silky, I get you completely, and, while you have seen more of him than me (I often finds myself working late; wonder why), where I think I differ with you is on the extent to which we are actually seeing Taylor's current skill base.

My point is that it might be K, and not Taylor, who is calling the shots (I liked that pun, I mean, really). So, for example, it sounded from this summer's postings that the kid had an all-around game including an inside one, at least as I remember it. My thinking is that maybe K would prefer to keep a guy of his size, who when he spreads out to receive takes up lots of space, away from the lane, even though he, King, might be able to create play from that position.

Seems like a quality guy.

interesting and I'm tempted to agree. hard to know exactly what coach k is thinking/saying to these guys, but your point would at least make sense in the context of this offense. We want to space the floor to open up driving lanes, etc. and he is such a threat from SO far away that he's best utilized by just keeping him out on the perimeter and forcing a defender to be far away from the basket.

Not to mention that by playing him at the 4/5 the player that is guarding him so far from the basket is usually an effective rebounder, so we negate that potential advantage...definitely a logical argument on your part

also, definitely seems like a quality guy. these guys all do. they just love playing with each other (let's hope that means they want to stay together for a few more years!!!)

greybeard
02-01-2008, 06:00 PM
interesting and I'm tempted to agree. hard to know exactly what coach k is thinking/saying to these guys, but your point would at least make sense in the context of this offense. We want to space the floor to open up driving lanes, etc. and he is such a threat from SO far away that he's best utilized by just keeping him out on the perimeter and forcing a defender to be far away from the basket.

Not to mention that by playing him at the 4/5 the player that is guarding him so far from the basket is usually an effective rebounder, so we negate that potential advantage...definitely a logical argument on your part

also, definitely seems like a quality guy. these guys all do. they just love playing with each other (let's hope that means they want to stay together for a few more years!!!)

"You give me too much credit, kid, I'm not that clever." Except for the part about spreading the defense to open up driving lanes, the rest, which makes large sense, completely escaped me. As to the last, I'll drink to that!