Hitting "a wall"

[duketaylor]

Since the other thread has been locked I wanted to visit this thought separately. I do think there's merit in freshmen in college or rookies in the NBA with regards to hitting "a wall." I also think alot depends upon conditioning, both physically and mentally. In the specific case of Nolan Smith, please consider how many games he played last year at Oak Hill and the type of schedule Oak Hill plays regularly. My point being, I think a player coming from a public HS, playing a "normal" schedule, is much more susceptible to hitting "a wall." Oak Hill played over 40 games last year, traveling all over the place, playing in tournaments and constantly on the road. To me, the transition into college hoops should be fairly easy compared to a public HS player who rarely travels and plays less hoops. Just a thought.

[pamtar]

Thats a very good point.

How many games do state champ public schools play? I don't think its close but just curious. Also, the case could be made that most good high schoolers play AAU -but then again the there is probably less will to win those games. Plus, Oak Hill is exposed to the media a lot more than public schools.

[wilson]

You make a great point about Nolan's high school pedigree. I would also add that our markedly higher degree of depth this year as compared to seasons past should help. This cuts people's minutes a bit (if need be), and our remarkable offensive balance relieves pressure on any one player to perform in whatever minutes he does get. That has/will help us avoid further unnecessary fatigue that comes with both the physical and mental exhaustion that can result from "pressing" (that is to say trying too hard, not playing full-court defense).

[mr. synellinden]

I have noticed that in many games this year we have looked like the fresher team as the second half wears on. With the running style we play, our conditioning and depth will be a major advantage as the season moves into March and hopefully April.

Whereas in years past we have seemed to get more tired as the season wore on (compared to our opponents) I see very positive signs that suggest we will not have that problem this year. There have been reports about Singler's conditioning (something having to do with his mile run time or something like that). Nelson, who is playing the most minutes, seems to get stronger as the games go on. And our other key players are playing 25 minutes a game or less as opposed to 32-35 minutes a game. I think that's a huge difference. I thought the difference in the second half of the Maryland game was in part due to who was the fresher team.

I believe this is why we have won some "close" games late in the second half such as Marquette, Clemson, Maryland, etc. which many people have cited as the type of games we lose last year. IMO conditioning and depth are playing a big role in that.

[wilson]

...I thought the difference in the second half of the Maryland game was in part due to who was the fresher team.

I believe this is why we have won some "close" games late in the second half such as Marquette, Clemson, Maryland, etc. which many people have cited as the type of games we lose last year. IMO conditioning and depth are playing a big role in that.

I totally agree. I recall reading an in-depth analysis (though sadly, I can't remember where) of the Maryland game that essentially said the twerps ran out of gas. I'd argue that we also executed better than they did throughout the second half, though I suppose that's in part attributable to not running out of gas.

[duketaylor]

last year Nolan played in 41 HS games, Taylor King in 36 and Kyle in 30. That's more than your average HS team, which is closer to 20. Your better HS teams will play in a few tourneys, plus their play-offs.
No reason to expect any of the 3 frosh to hit "a wall," IMO.

[socaldukie]

I believe the issue of "hitting the wall" is more mental than physical. Sure, it can be both. Or mental leading to physical. But, playing in X number of games from HS to college doesn't necessarily mean that player is not going to run into mental fatigue. The mental pressure over a long season has its toll on freshmen who are adjusting to the speed of the game, the competition etc..not to mention the adjustment to college life. I just don't think there is nearly the same amount of mental preparation and constant pressure and pushing that comes from the college level compared to high school. Obviously each indivudual handles it differently. I think this is how K has really made this team better by letting them have fun with their game and not have too much added pressure. Having a spread offense, running and pushing the ball, and depth has helped accomplish this.

[MChambers]

I totally agree. I recall reading an in-depth analysis (though sadly, I can't remember where) of the Maryland game that essentially said the twerps ran out of gas. I'd argue that we also executed better than they did throughout the second half, though I suppose that's in part attributable to not running out of gas.

were saying early in the second half how the Maryland players were grabbing their shorts. I definitely think our depth played a big part in the comeback.
How nice it is to say that!

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

I believe the issue of "hitting the wall" is more mental than physical. Sure, it can be both. Or mental leading to physical. But, playing in X number of games from HS to college doesn't necessarily mean that player is not going to run into mental fatigue. The mental pressure over a long season has its toll on freshmen who are adjusting to the speed of the game, the competition etc..not to mention the adjustment to college life. I just don't think there is nearly the same amount of mental preparation and constant pressure and pushing that comes from the college level compared to high school. Obviously each indivudual handles it differently. I think this is how K has really made this team better by letting them have fun with their game and not have too much added pressure. Having a spread offense, running and pushing the ball, and depth has helped accomplish this.

Great point, Socal. I wonder also if some freshmen are worn down by the unique hostility that the Duke uniform evokes. For a lot of freshmen, even highly-regarded ones, they only have 2-3 high profile games, and the stands are usually filled with fans who either don't know them especially well or are there to see the "star" in action. I wonder how many are used to being reviled and screamed at three times a week by thousands of people? Add in the fact that other teams get up for Duke in a way they might not otherwise, and that's a pretty imposing baptism by fire. Maybe contributes to the "wall" in the short term, but I think it builds really strong and self-assured (generally in a good way) people in the long-term.

[juise]

The mental pressure over a long season has its toll on freshmen who are adjusting to the speed of the game, the competition etc..not to mention the adjustment to college life. I just don't think there is nearly the same amount of mental preparation and constant pressure and pushing that comes from the college level compared to high school.

I was thinking the same thing. Just as a student, I remember how much more intense and exhausting the last two weeks of a college semester were, as compared to a high school semester. Of course, the average student gets a couple weeks off between Fall and Spring semesters to recover. The basketball players normally do not get this luxury, but this year was a bit different. It will be interesting to see if the team has more energy down the stretch this year... especially the freshmen.

[Classof06]

Personally, I think the depth we have on this team will greatly mitigate the chances of any of our freshman hitting a wall. These kids haven't been asked to carry anywhere near the amount that Scheyer was asked to carry last year. King and Smith don't start and Singler's foul trouble has prevented him from playing too many minutes in certain games; Singler averages 6 minutes less per game than Scheyer did last year. I think this team is a lot fresher at this point than they were last year.

I think it's also worth noting that Duke had a 17-day layoff between the Pitt and Cornell games; the longest break in one season under Krzyzewski. I can't think of any other major D-1 team that had that long of a break. These kids shouldn't be hitting a wall anytime soon.

[OZ]

Perhaps this has been discussed before (if so I missed it and apologize), but in reference to Nolan's playing time, Coach K, in his Maryland post-game interview mentioned "Nolan's knee giving out." I think the exact quote was "his (Nolan) knee gave out... he has had a problem with that knee."

Maybe, when we question as to whether Nolan ought to be the point guard (as in one thread), or that he should be getting more minutes and/or whether he might "hit the wall," we might need to consider there may be factors about which we have no knowledge. Prior to this interview, I had not previously heard of Nolan having a knee problem.

If his knee has been discuss before or someone has an update on this, I would appreciate the information.

[Classof06]

Based on what I know, Nolan hyper-extended his knee in the Clemson game and then reaggravated it when he slipped on Maryland's court in the 2nd half. As far as I know, Smith had no knee problems before the Clemson game.

[duketaylor]

I also agree that, with more quality depth, Duke is a much stronger team, especially at crunch time. We do, indeed, seem stronger as the game goes on and I think it bodes well for March. I don't see K (I hope) cutting back to a 7-man rotation.

[GMR]

I agree with posters on this topic that Duke seems to weathering the "hitting the wall" syndrome very well so far. In fact, I also agree that Duke seems to be wearing out other teams, and one of the reasons is the depth Duke uses, which is much improved over last year.

However, we are 1/2 of the way through this year, if you consider 2 or 3 ACC tourney games, and 3-4 NCAA games. Last year, I don't think Duke had yet hit the wall, or in K's words, "run out of gas". Duke lost in the first round of the ACC and the NCAA, and ended up losing its last four games of the season.
K has stated that the coaching staff should have done a better job of keeping them fresher last year. I think the long layoff over the Holidays is an indication that the coaches are watching this closely. I have seen no indication, yet, that the players are beginning to tire, although I wonder a little bit about Scheyer the last couple of games. He has played below his abilities, and it could be, of course, due to many other factors beyond being tired. He seems to pushing his shots like a shot putter, versus shooting his shots.

Last year, Duke won five straight ACC games in January, then lost four straight, I believe. I think they then won four in a row before tanking with the season ending four game losses.

I am thoroughly enjoying Duke's success so far in this season, and I certainly want to see the Devils not only continue their successes but improve upon them. If they're capable of improving, I think the post season will be very enjoyable for Duke.

GMR

[dukemomLA]

I agree with previous posts that "the Wall" (especially in this case with a deep team) is more mental than physical. That being said, it's up to the coaches and more experienced players to 'teach the young guys the ropes.'

ACC BB, and the ACC Tournament, and then the NCAAs doesn't rival ANYTHING these guys experienced in HS, no matter where they played, or how many games.

Conditioning, Focus, Conditioning, Focus. Physically prep. Mental prep.

And MAKE THOSE FREE THROWS!!!!! Extra time at the line after practice. Throws and throws -- even with eyes shut. MAKE US PROUD!! This team with a plethora of shooters, should ace the FT line every time. GO DUKE!

[cato]

Since the other thread has been locked I wanted to visit this thought separately. I do think there's merit in freshmen in college or rookies in the NBA with regards to hitting "a wall." I also think alot depends upon conditioning, both physically and mentally. In the specific case of Nolan Smith, please consider how many games he played last year at Oak Hill and the type of schedule Oak Hill plays regularly. My point being, I think a player coming from a public HS, playing a "normal" schedule, is much more susceptible to hitting "a wall." Oak Hill played over 40 games last year, traveling all over the place, playing in tournaments and constantly on the road. To me, the transition into college hoops should be fairly easy compared to a public HS player who rarely travels and plays less hoops. Just a thought.

I saw Nolan Smith play last year when Oak Hill swung out West for a tournament in Orange County (with the Love v. King game following Oak Hills' game). Those teams may have been good for high school, but the intensity and level of competition were nowhere near the realm of ACC hoops. I really don't know if a few extra games against high school competition -- even the best high school competition -- makes that much of a difference when a freshmen has to face an ACC opponent for the return game on the road down the stretch.

[NYC Duke Fan]

It seems that Singler has recently hit a wall and hopefully the 4 days will rejuvinate him.

The other talented freshmen to wit : Beasley, Mayo, Gordon, Bayliss, Hummell and Love seemed to escape it. Are there any other, talented freshmen who like Singler have had the same experience ?

[slower]

It seems that Singler has recently hit a wall and hopefully the 4 days will rejuvinate him.

The other talented freshmen to wit : Beasley, Mayo, Gordon, Bayliss, Hummell and Love seemed to escape it. Are there any other, talented freshmen who like Singler have had the same experience ?

Who in the world is Hummell?

[heyman25]

Rob Hummel plays at Purdue. Derrick Rose also hasn't hit a wall. None of those freshman has had to guard every game players that out weigh Kyle by 20 to 40 pounds. That physical play may have taken its toll.Our recruiting decisions in the last few years have lead to this situation.Maybe Cysz can help the power forward position next year with Taylor King.

[GMR]

Robbie Hummel is a freshman from Purdue that was runner-up for Big 10 player of the year, was All Big 10, and is a Wooden Finalist for Player of the year. He's about 6'8" tall, only averages about 11-12 points per game, but is a good all-around player....defensively, rebounding, 3 point shooting, inside game. He's not a power player.

GMR

[Lauderdevil]

It seems that Singler has recently hit a wall and hopefully the 4 days will rejuvinate him.

The other talented freshmen to wit : Beasley, Mayo, Gordon, Bayliss, Hummell and Love seemed to escape it. Are there any other, talented freshmen who like Singler have had the same experience ?

In addition to playing basketball, Singler has to go to class.

[mgtr]

That is probably a major difference between Duke and some other schools. People at Duke are actually expected to get an education.

[Bluedawg]

Singler (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=24604) has shot 9-50 from behind the line in the last nine games, underscoring the toll that playing out of position has taken on him.

is it playing out of position or the "freshman wall"? I expect he'll bounce back but the stat is interesting.

[NYC Duke Fan]

In addition to playing basketball, Singler has to go to class.

Why do assume that the others don't do to class? Plus Duke has had it share of players who left early...not including Jason Williams or Boozer who got their degrees. The reasons given previously regarding why Singler might have hit a wall have merit...yours don't.

[Saratoga2]

is it playing out of position or the "freshman wall"? I expect he'll bounce back but the stat is interesting.

I am sick of hearing about hitting a wall, as though it is something real. Singler may be hurting from all the pounding he has taken playing out of position, or he may have faced tougher competition and lost a degree of confidence, but hitting a wall is something an outfielder might do. It seems to be something people say when they don't know the real cause of a change in performance.

[MChambers]

I am sick of hearing about hitting a wall, as though it is something real. Singler may be hurting from all the pounding he has taken playing out of position, or he may have faced tougher competition and lost a degree of confidence, but hitting a wall is something an outfielder might do. It seems to be something people say when they don't know the real cause of a change in performance.

is a slump, nothing more and nothing less. Has nothing to do with hitting a figurative wall as a freshman or with guarding people who are heavier than you.

[The Gordog]

Why do assume that the others don't do to class? Plus Duke has had it share of players who left early...not including Jason Williams or Boozer who got their degrees. The reasons given previously regarding why Singler might have hit a wall have merit...yours don't.
Because they don't. For every Duke player that did not go to class (Will Avery is the only one I'm aware of - and that's only hearsay) there are at least 5 at every other hoops power.

[mgtr]

Agreed -- it all has to do with the type of player you recruit, and why you recruit him. It would be interesting to look at where Duke BB players have ended up outside of basketball.

[mapei]

Georgetown players, including all-Big-East (freshmen team) Austin Freeman, definitely go to class. And Freeman, after a terrific early and mid-season, did seem to hit a wall or slump. His shooting %, particularly on 3s, took a nosedive. (He's also been playing out of position, BTW, playing SF at 6'4".)

But lately he seems to have come out of it and has been hitting key shots again. He seems to be fine now.

[Bluedawg]

I am sick of hearing about hitting a wall, as though it is something real. Singler may be hurting from all the pounding he has taken playing out of position, or he may have faced tougher competition and lost a degree of confidence, but hitting a wall is something an outfielder might do. It seems to be something people say when they don't know the real cause of a change in performance.

You will note the term "freshman wall" is in quotes...

[Lauderdevil]

Why do assume that the others don't do to class? Plus Duke has had it share of players who left early...not including Jason Williams or Boozer who got their degrees. The reasons given previously regarding why Singler might have hit a wall have merit...yours don't.

You're being naive about the difference between going to school at Duke and going to many other schools -- and the pressure and time commitment it can bring to bear on a 19-year-old. Being a student at Duke is a full-time endeavor, and the fact that Duke players are able to perform adequately in the classroom given the time commitment basketball requires is remarkable, in my judgment.

If you think it's the same everywhere, you should check out the article just this week in the Chronicle of Higher Education about the "special treatment" of athletes at the University of Michigan -- one of the nation's top public institutions academically. http://chronicle.com/news/article/4152/athletes-at-u-of-michigan-steered-to-certain-professors-and-majors-study-finds You'll find the situation to be considerably worse at some schools.

The fact that Duke has had players who have left school to pursue dreams of millions in the NBA (some successfully, some not) isn't responsive to the question of whether they went to class while at Duke. I think it's reasonable to assert that academics place a much higher burden on Duke's players than would be found at many other schools. That's part of the attraction for the right players, but it's still wearing over the course of a long season.

[JG Nothing]

In addition to playing basketball, Singler has to go to class.


For every Duke player that did not go to class (Will Avery is the only one I'm aware of - and that's only hearsay) there are at least 5 at every other hoops power.


It all has to do with the type of player you recruit, and why you recruit him. It would be interesting to look at where Duke BB players have ended up outside of basketball.


Being a student at Duke is a full-time endeavor, and the fact that Duke players are able to perform adequately in the classroom given the time commitment basketball requires is remarkable, in my judgment.

Justified or not, these are the types of comments that contribute to the hatred towards Duke.

[Bluedawg]

It seems that Singler has recently hit a wall and hopefully the 4 days will rejuvinate him.

The other talented freshmen to wit : Beasley, Mayo, Gordon, Bayliss, Hummell and Love seemed to escape it. Are there any other, talented freshmen who like Singler have had the same experience ?


Since losing to Clemson in the ACC semifinals on Saturday, Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski and his staff have emphasized the importance of rest and sleep to a team heavily reliant on freshmen and sophomores. He was the first to admit that freshman forward Kyle Singler was running on fumes in Charlotte.

"Kyle looks tired," Krzyzewski said after the Clemson game. "He's had a lot of pressure -- physical and otherwise -- on him to play at a high level. We need to get him refreshed. His two [ACC Tournament games] were a gallant effort, but you could tell he doesn't have his legs, ... he wasn't fresh."

Caulton Tudor (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/duke/story/1006627.html)

There is reason to believe that fatigue was a real factor with Kyle.

[greybeard]

Singler has had to operate under a lot of pressure. No, he has had to operate under an unconscionable amount of pressure. Mentally, physically, emotionally; I don't recall a player more at the center of everything a high-end team does than Singler is; and there really is no help from anyone with a lot of it.

If the offense did not work as effectively as it did, then Singler would perhaps have been less central, or might be less central, now that Zoubek is back and able to contribute somewhat (not how he would like). But, with the way that offense works, it seems that so much depends on Singler. So much.

He has been sensational. Whether he can get enough of a second wind at this point is anybody's guess.

Have to say that I have enjoyed watching Duke this year as much as any team I have ever followed. Without Singler, I could not say that. Thanks Kyle, and enjoy the rest of the ride.

[NYC Duke Fan]

You're being naive about the difference between going to school at Duke and going to many other schools -- and the pressure and time commitment it can bring to bear on a 19-year-old. Being a student at Duke is a full-time endeavor, and the fact that Duke players are able to perform adequately in the classroom given the time commitment basketball requires is remarkable, in my judgment.

If you think it's the same everywhere, you should check out the article just this week in the Chronicle of Higher Education about the "special treatment" of athletes at the University of Michigan -- one of the nation's top public institutions academically. http://chronicle.com/news/article/4152/athletes-at-u-of-michigan-steered-to-certain-professors-and-majors-study-finds You'll find the situation to be considerably worse at some schools.

The fact that Duke has had players who have left school to pursue dreams of millions in the NBA (some successfully, some not) isn't responsive to the question of whether they went to class while at Duke. I think it's reasonable to assert that academics place a much higher burden on Duke's players than would be found at many other schools. That's part of the attraction for the right players, but it's still wearing over the course of a long season.

Then I guess that if any of the Stanford or Vanderbilt freshmen , " hit a wall",then the same reasoning would have to apply to them.

[dw0827]

Even a casual reading of various threads suggests a fairly common denominator . . . we were a tired team.

First, this is NOT about the flu. That is different. The flu doesn't explain why we didn't do too well down the stretch this season. But posters have suggested that we faltered because we were tired. And they seem to say that we were physically tired.

Let me throw something out there and see how you all respond. Let me suggest that our problems were more about mental exhaustion than physical exhaustion.

This team was, in some respects, flawed (in my opinion) partially due to the lack of a meaningful inside game similar to what we've seen in past years. The coaches and the team did a wonderful job in adapting to the available talent. Different schemes, Phoenix, zone, Scheyer off the bench, small ball, and so on. Personally, I think this was one of Coach K's greatest coaching jobs.

BUT, to succeed, this team had to play well, extremely well. There simply wasn't much margin for error. To play at such a high level for several months, although exhilarating, takes its toll. Mentally. Its hard to stay at one's peak, and maintain that level of emotional intensity, for a sustained period.

Kyle, for example. People talk about him hitting a wall, like Jon last year. Well, is the wall a physical or a mental barrier? I suggest that its a mental barrier. And just as, perhaps, Kyle may have hit the wall, I wonder if the entire team didn't collectively hit the same wall . . . and for the same reasons. Mental and emotional exhaustion.

In the last part of the year, the team made tired mistakes. They did things we didn't see when they were fresh. Defense is as much about intensity and emotion as it is about technique (in my opinion). And our defense late wasn't as good as early. Technique? I don't think so. They're mentally tired. Fried.

Thoughts? Am I way off base here?

[Dukeford]

I agree, there's no way that 19-21 year old kids stay physically tired when they play 1-2 games per week.
I mean come on, these guys will go all day in the summer, I used to play for hours and loved it when I was that age.

I know it's not exactly the same thing, but guys this age don't have "tired legs" when they have had 2 days rest between games.

But yes, I can accept the mental exhaustion possibility

[kinghoops]

Even a casual reading of various threads suggests a fairly common denominator . . . we were a tired team.

First, this is NOT about the flu. That is different. The flu doesn't explain why we didn't do too well down the stretch this season. But posters have suggested that we faltered because we were tired. And they seem to say that we were physically tired.

Let me throw something out there and see how you all respond. Let me suggest that our problems were more about mental exhaustion than physical exhaustion.

This team was, in some respects, flawed (in my opinion) partially due to the lack of a meaningful inside game similar to what we've seen in past years. The coaches and the team did a wonderful job in adapting to the available talent. Different schemes, Phoenix, zone, Scheyer off the bench, small ball, and so on. Personally, I think this was one of Coach K's greatest coaching jobs.

BUT, to succeed, this team had to play well, extremely well. There simply wasn't much margin for error. To play at such a high level for several months, although exhilarating, takes its toll. Mentally. Its hard to stay at one's peak, and maintain that level of emotional intensity, for a sustained period.

Kyle, for example. People talk about him hitting a wall, like Jon last year. Well, is the wall a physical or a mental barrier? I suggest that its a mental barrier. And just as, perhaps, Kyle may have hit the wall, I wonder if the entire team didn't collectively hit the same wall . . . and for the same reasons. Mental and emotional exhaustion.

In the last part of the year, the team made tired mistakes. They did things we didn't see when they were fresh. Defense is as much about intensity and emotion as it is about technique (in my opinion). And our defense late wasn't as good as early. Technique? I don't think so. They're mentally tired. Fried.

Thoughts? Am I way off base here?

actually, i dont think you are off base at all, i think it is a combination of physical and mental. like i stated in another thread, i think the final 5 mins of the carolina home game took all the wind out of our sails.

[SoCalDukeFan]

I hope that the staff does not just chalk this up to the flu.

As I posted on the other thread, last year's team lost their last four games.

I think some of it can be attributed to a more physical style of play being allowed and Duke not having the players or preparation for it. I could be completely off base.

In the past we seemed to peak in March/April now its Dec/Jan.

SoCal