Unruly fan behaviour...

[Madrasdukie]

Maybe this will make Terp fans think twice....

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/basketball/ncaa/01/29/oregon.apology.ap/index.html

[Uncle Drew]

Maybe this will make Terp fans think twice....

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/basketball/ncaa/01/29/oregon.apology.ap/index.html

The Oregon fans / students probably regret their verbal assault, but only because it apparently REALLY irked the younger Love into a monster game and thus a Duck loss. When it comes to verbal assaults on JJ's sisters, bottle assaults on Boozers mom or on court antics by opposing players MOST of us (see anti-Duke tsunami for more information) know there is a double standard. Having seen enough games at opposing arenas and heard Duke players get verbally assaulted I've realized most schools think since it's Duke it's okay. The best thing Duke can do is continue to take the high road and the best revenge is a victory on an enemy court like the last two road wins.

[Madrasdukie]

Having seen enough games at opposing arenas and heard Duke players get verbally assaulted I've realized most schools think since it's Duke it's okay.
If that is indeed true, that would be unfortunate. However, I feel more press coverage of unruly fan behaviour should at least make people think twice.


The best thing Duke can do is continue to take the high road and the best revenge is a victory on an enemy court like the last two road wins.
Agreed. The team has done a marvellous job on the road over the years.

[MulletMan]

Having been sitting next to JJ's fam the first time we travelled to VT, I will vouch for the ridiculous behavior there.

Thanks to the note on the front page last weekend, I was able to scoop up a couple of tix for the Wake game on the 17th. Given my past run ins with Wake fans in Cameron, I will be anxious to see what sort of reception my buddy and I get in Winston-Salem...

[allenmurray]

From the article: "It's an ongoing thing to try to get our students to behave properly," Walker said.

Any coach or athletic director with guts can stop this kind of thing any time they want to. They coach simply announces to the crowd that if it doesn't stop he will remove his team from the court and forfeit. Or the AD simply announces that there will be no student seating for the next home game. You would only have to do it once to have an impact.

[Channing]

I hate to bring something like this up - I know its ancient history, but someone was making an argument to me about how the crazies have no class and it came up - and I had never heard of it. Did the crazies chant "orphan" at Scott Williams (I believe thats who it was), possibly around the 1989 season. Apparently his father had killed his mother and then himself in a murder suicide. He swore it was true - i find it hard to believe. Can anyone tell me if this actually happened?

[Carlos]

That's great urban legend stuff right there.

[Channing]

That's great urban legend stuff right there.

Thank goodness!!

[blazindw]

I hate to bring something like this up - I know its ancient history, but someone was making an argument to me about how the crazies have no class and it came up - and I had never heard of it. Did the crazies chant "orphan" at Scott Williams (I believe thats who it was), possibly around the 1989 season. Apparently his father had killed his mother and then himself in a murder suicide. He swore it was true - i find it hard to believe. Can anyone tell me if this actually happened?

I doubt it did. I know that there have been many players since then who have come to Cameron with seriously troubled pasts (like Juan Dixon or D.J. Strawberry), and we made a point not to touch those subjects. If that did happen, that was totally wrong, and I feel that kind of attitude has sensed been corrected for the most part.

[DevilCastDownfromDurham]

Yeah, that, the "PLO" chant at at Kerr, and a bunch of others often get wrongly attributed to the Crazies. In one sense it's neat that we are the first group of fans that anyone thinks of (like mislabled MP3's on Napster), but so often it's just the really nasty ones that someone is trying to pin on the Crazies. Since the "Avuncular Letter" I can only think of 2-3 chants that were even borderline.

[Indoor66]

I hate to bring something like this up - I know its ancient history, but someone was making an argument to me about how the crazies have no class and it came up - and I had never heard of it. Did the crazies chant "orphan" at Scott Williams (I believe thats who it was), possibly around the 1989 season. Apparently his father had killed his mother and then himself in a murder suicide. He swore it was true - i find it hard to believe. Can anyone tell me if this actually happened?

I was in Cameron for the '89 Carolina game and I don't remember any incident of that nature. The crazies try to be cute and sometimes border on being cruel but a chant such at you describe would only be cruel, not a trait I have seen in the Cameron crowd.

[sandinmyshoes]

I had never heard of that supposed Scott Williams rumor. I asked a handful of my UNC friends and they had never heard of it, and I'm pretty sure they all keep a secret diary of what they perceive to be Crazies' misdeeds for future reference.

[allenmurray]

I don't know if this is ammong them or not, but I remember reading somewhere (probably DBR) about a number of these types of incidents being falsely attributed to Duke. A number of these type things did in fact happen, and there seemed to have been some documentation, but they happened at other schools. Then in the Duke Hatred Tsunami the story became that they happeed at CIS. Thuys, while the stories were not just urban legend, their location was falsely ascribed.

[alteran]

Maybe this will make Terp fans think twice....

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/basketball/ncaa/01/29/oregon.apology.ap/index.html

Possibly. But what will make them think for the first time?

[alteran]

The moronic "orphan chant" rumor has been around forever. About 15 years, actually. Originally, though, the claim was that the crazies chanted, "where's mommy! where's daddy!"

Oh, and sometimes, the crazies were firing cap guns. Seriously.

As the years go on, the haters morphed it into "orphan!" I have no idea why, maybe it was easier to type. The best part: half these morons claim they were there and heard it. Of course, they don't explain why the cheer suddenly changed 10 years after the fact.

Or why the media, which REALLY let Duke have it for the Herman Veal incident, gave this supposed happening a complete pass when it would have been a far more appalling event.

Sad.

[Madrasdukie]

Possibly. But what will make them think for the first time?

It is wishful thinking to an extent. However, when unruly behaviour is reprimanded, and receives such press(D. Williams-ESPN sportscenter, and the current article), it should I would think, cumulatively weigh on the sense of license that motivates such behaviour.

[pamtar]

Didnt know what the Herman Veal incident was so I googled it and this is what I found. Thought I'd share: http://espn.go.com/page2/s/cameron/hits.html

[whereinthehellami]

Its amazing to me how perception can change from one fan base to the next. I follow three boards pretty closely, UNC, VT, and Duke. I only post on the Duke boards. I'm constantly amazed at how each fan base can see one thing so differently. It is a fascinating and frightening phenomenon born from the internet. But if you probe deeper, you start to see that while each fanbase sees things differently, the fanbases are for the most part made of the same persons. The sociologist in me can't get enough.

[alteran]

Didnt know what the Herman Veal incident was so I googled it and this is what I found. Thought I'd share: http://espn.go.com/page2/s/cameron/hits.html

Yes, a LEGITIMATE low point for the crazies.

That flavor of the article doesn't really do the episode justice. It triggered a wave of outrage at the students, and Terry Sanford responded with the famous "Avuncular Letter (http://library.duke.edu/uarchives/images/cameron/avuncular.jpg)" to the student body.

The Crazies responded in the next game by giving UNC's Dean Smith flowers, waving signs that said, "Welcome, Fellow Scholars," and chanting "We Beg to Differ" at the zebras rather than the more succinct "bullsh**!"

Good times.

[dukestheheat]

a close to low blow for our group, but not really.

one duke/carolina game (i can't remember which one) we did get on jr reid about his getting thrown out of shooter's disco in raleigh; this was in warm-ups, and we did the little chant in unison 'let's go to shooters!' clap5. he got pissed off, threw the ball down and immediately ran into the locker room. we laughed about it for a good while; the year previous the blue devil comes out with pillows stuffed into his rear to the sound of the rap song '....'s got a big 'ole butt' and we put JR's name in there. total hilarity.

he didn't like that one either. we did get under his skin a lot as i recall it.

dth.

[Madrasdukie]

But if you probe deeper, you start to see that while each fanbase sees things differently, the fanbases are for the most part made of the same persons. The sociologist in me can't get enough.

One of the reasons why I liked Akira Kurosawa's, "Rashomon".

[Madrasdukie]

.... and chanting "We Beg to Differ" at the zebras rather than the more succinct "bullsh**!"

This does sound funny...

[DU82]

The moronic "orphan chant" rumor has been around forever. About 15 years, actually. Originally, though, the claim was that the crazies chanted, "where's mommy! where's daddy!"

Oh, and sometimes, the crazies were firing cap guns. Seriously.

As the years go on, the haters morphed it into "orphan!" I have no idea why, maybe it was easier to type. The best part: half these morons claim they were there and heard it. Of course, they don't explain why the cheer suddenly changed 10 years after the fact.

Or why the media, which REALLY let Duke have it for the Herman Veal incident, gave this supposed happening a complete pass when it would have been a far more appalling event.

Sad.


If the "orphan" cheer did happen, why didn't Saint Dean respond, or comment after the game? He certainly had comments after the Veal incident, given he was the coach at the next game.

It's possible that somebody in the crowd did say something like that, however unlike other schools (ASU in the case of Steve Kerr) it was not organized and not loud enough to be heard away from that person. Like the incident with the Vol fan/usher on Monday that was reported here, in Cameron, fortunately, these things are very isolated, and not tolerated.

Speaking of Maryland, in '87, after Len Bias died, Bob Wade and Maryland had a tough year. Various chants at opposing venues (including one at ODU, if I recall, that was particularly bad.) The George Michael Sports Machine came to Cameron to do a story on how badly treated Wade and the Terps were (this is when it was big deal for national media to come here), especially with the notorious Cameron Crowd. After the game, Wade mentioned that the reception in Cameron was by far the best they had received, and the reporter from GMSM told me they didn't have a story, or at least not the one they came for.

[RelativeWays]

Its amazing to me how perception can change from one fan base to the next. I follow three boards pretty closely, UNC, VT, and Duke. I only post on the Duke boards. I'm constantly amazed at how each fan base can see one thing so differently. It is a fascinating and frightening phenomenon born from the internet. But if you probe deeper, you start to see that while each fanbase sees things differently, the fanbases are for the most part made of the same persons. The sociologist in me can't get enough.

Sports fandom is the epitome of revisionist history, as evident by the Hendo/Beaker incident last season. I can't think of anything where the perception of factual events is so strongly colored by allegiances and loyalties, not even politics.

[CDu]

I honestly don't see how, in the Coach K era, any such awful cheers would be let go. I remember at least once in my four years (the Battier years) that Coach K got on the mic and stopped a cheer. I believe it was against Michigan, in reference to a kid who's dad recruited Burgess (and lost). The cheer was offensive, and Coach K told them to stop immediately. And it was nothing like that infamous chant Kerr received in a PAC-10 game.

[alteran]

I honestly don't see how, in the Coach K era, any such awful cheers would be let go. I remember at least once in my four years (the Battier years) that Coach K got on the mic and stopped a cheer. I believe it was against Michigan, in reference to a kid who's dad recruited Burgess (and lost). The cheer was offensive, and Coach K told them to stop immediately. And it was nothing like that infamous chant Kerr received in a PAC-10 game.

Yet another reason the orphan theory makes no sense.

[Johnboy]

That incident was probably the lowest point in the history of the Crazies, because not only was the behavior out of hand, but Veal had a monster game (10 boards, 12 points) and Maryland beat Duke that night (1/14/1984). I was there - my junior year.

Note: Todays Crazies weren't even born yet.

Edited to add: The orphan cheer didn't happen either. No way.

[wumhenry]

Early in the 65/66 season, Duke played UCLA, which had won the national championship the year before and was ranked #1 at the time, in back-to-back games, the first of which was played in the Duke Indoor Stadium (as it was then known) and the other in Greensboro. Duke won both games and consequently took over first place in the rankings. Sports Illustrated ran an article on the games under a sour headline that I don't remember word-for-word in its entirety but went something like this: "Racism Under The Southern Pines." The theme of the article was not that Duke had won two momentous upset victories but that anti-black racism was alive and well in DIS, as shown by the (alleged) fact that the stadium resounded with racist catcalls directed at UCLA's black players. I saw the game from the student section and never heard a single racist remark. After the article was published I asked a fair number of other students if they'd heard any racist heckling during the game, and all of them said they hadn't. AFAIK, SI's rap has never been corroborated by any Duke student who present. Maybe the reporter heard racist heckling that was inaudible to me and most others present, but he shouldn't have depicted it as having been blatant and widespread, which unfairly tarred the whole Duke community with a broad brush.

[Indoor66]

Early in the 65/66 season, Duke played UCLA, which had won the national championship the year before and was ranked #1 at the time, in back-to-back games, the first of which was played in the Duke Indoor Stadium (as it was then known) and the other in Greensboro. Duke won both games and consequently took over first place in the rankings. Sports Illustrated ran an article on the games under a sour headline that I don't remember word-for-word in its entirety but went something like this: "Racism Under The Southern Pines." The theme of the article was not that Duke had won two momentous upset victories but that anti-black racism was alive and well in DIS, as shown by the (alleged) fact that the stadium resounded with racist catcalls directed at UCLA's black players. I saw the game from the student section and never heard a single racist remark. After the article was published I asked a fair number of other students if they'd heard any racist heckling during the game, and all of them said they hadn't. AFAIK, SI's rap has never been corroborated by any Duke student who present. Maybe the reporter heard racist heckling that was inaudible to me and most others present, but he shouldn't have depicted it as having been blatant and widespread, which unfairly tarred the whole Duke community with a broad brush.

I, too, was at that game and I would agree with your memory of the crowd behavior.

[gotham devil]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QMcxcpOn6s

Carolina girls inexplicably yelling, "Go back to the ghetto!" amongst other things at the conclusion of the Maryland game.

[aimo]

Didnt know what the Herman Veal incident was so I googled it and this is what I found. Thought I'd share: http://espn.go.com/page2/s/cameron/hits.html

A few notes on this article:

Regarding Urkel, very close to this same time, at a Carolina game, the students started chanting Urkel. We were looking around to see to whom it was directed, when we realized it was . . . Urkel! Jaleel White had attended basketball camp at Duke and had come back for the carolina game and was sitting behind the Duke bench.

The One More Kid chant is used almost every year and has been for decades.

The Big Ole Butt cheer started with JR Reid, with the Blue Devil sporting a big stuffed butt, a UNC jersey with JR's number, and a flattop. The entire student section serenaded him with Da Butt. I was in tears.

The best part about You suck, Dick was when Coach K got on the microphone to tell the students to stop. In the process of lecturing them, he says "You suck, Dick" AT LEAST 3 times, with Paparo standing nearby cringing. I know Coach K was using it as an opportunity. Again, in tears.

With Steve Hale, the Blue Devil tried to give him flowers, but some UNC thug/assistant wouldn't let him. Hale stepped around him and took them anyway.

Lefty Driesell signed a student's skinhead with an "X" saying he did, after all, go to Duke.

During a CBS game, Brent Musberger donned a Duke cap, and the students cheered like crazy. He then placed the hat on Billy Packer's head, and the students quickly booed him out and chanted, "Go to Hell, Billy Packer, go to Hell!"

Back when there was room for opposing teams' cheerleaders, the State cheerleaders chanted RED . . . White! The Duke students added, "Your necks are RED, your socks are WHITE!"

Good Times!

[devildeac]

A few notes on this article:

Regarding Urkel, very close to this same time, at a Carolina game, the students started chanting Urkel. We were looking around to see to whom it was directed, when we realized it was . . . Urkel! Jaleel White had attended basketball camp at Duke and had come back for the carolina game and was sitting behind the Duke bench.

The One More Kid chant is used almost every year and has been for decades.

The Big Ole Butt cheer started with JR Reid, with the Blue Devil sporting a big stuffed butt, a UNC jersey with JR's number, and a flattop. The entire student section serenaded him with Da Butt. I was in tears.

The best part about You suck, Dick was when Coach K got on the microphone to tell the students to stop. In the process of lecturing them, he says "You suck, Dick" AT LEAST 3 times, with Paparo standing nearby cringing. I know Coach K was using it as an opportunity. Again, in tears.

With Steve Hale, the Blue Devil tried to give him flowers, but some UNC thug/assistant wouldn't let him. Hale stepped around him and took them anyway.

Lefty Driesell signed a student's skinhead with an "X" saying he did, after all, go to Duke.

During a CBS game, Brent Musberger donned a Duke cap, and the students cheered like crazy. He then placed the hat on Billy Packer's head, and the students quickly booed him out and chanted, "Go to Hell, Billy Packer, go to Hell!"

Back when there was room for opposing teams' cheerleaders, the State cheerleaders chanted RED . . . White! The Duke students added, "Your necks are RED, your socks are WHITE!"

Good Times!

Even one that I had not read about before was the red/white cheer.

The "you suck, Dick" cheer also changed to "you suck, Richard" after the admonishing by K apparently.

Steve Hale was also greeted with "in-Hale" and "ex-Hale" as he subbed in and out of the game. Some consider this to be one of their all-time favs.

Lefty was routinely greeted with skin-heads with gauges on them reading E(mpty).

[DU82]

Even one that I had not read about before was the red/white cheer.

The "you suck, Dick" cheer also changed to "you suck, Richard" after the admonishing by K apparently.

Steve Hale was also greeted with "in-Hale" and "ex-Hale" as he subbed in and out of the game. Some consider this to be one of their all-time favs.

Lefty was routinely greeted with skin-heads with gauges on them reading E(mpty).

A correction, Steve Hale sat out the game in Cameron in '86 after suffering a collapsed lung (although it was clear by then he would be fine, and he did attend the game and sat on the bench in street clothes.) The In-Hale, Ex-Hale cheer occurred as he walked out from the locker room.

[Lavabe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QMcxcpOn6s

Carolina girls inexplicably yelling, "Go back to the ghetto!" amongst other things at the conclusion of the Maryland game.

Was that spliced in there? I can't believe no one has said anything about it. Wow!:eek: It sounded like she was still yelling stuff afterwards, but it was hard to tell.

FWIW, the girl is STILL crying.:D

Cheers,
Lavabe

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Early in the 65/66 season, Duke played UCLA, which had won the national championship the year before and was ranked #1 at the time, in back-to-back games, the first of which was played in the Duke Indoor Stadium (as it was then known) and the other in Greensboro. Duke won both games and consequently took over first place in the rankings. Sports Illustrated ran an article on the games under a sour headline that I don't remember word-for-word in its entirety but went something like this: "Racism Under The Southern Pines." The theme of the article was not that Duke had won two momentous upset victories but that anti-black racism was alive and well in DIS, as shown by the (alleged) fact that the stadium resounded with racist catcalls directed at UCLA's black players. I saw the game from the student section and never heard a single racist remark. After the article was published I asked a fair number of other students if they'd heard any racist heckling during the game, and all of them said they hadn't. AFAIK, SI's rap has never been corroborated by any Duke student who present. Maybe the reporter heard racist heckling that was inaudible to me and most others present, but he shouldn't have depicted it as having been blatant and widespread, which unfairly tarred the whole Duke community with a broad brush.
I was at that game and never heard such comments or remarks. Duke was definitely on a roll that year. I suspect this "story" was an attempt to take away from the mounting success our basketball program was having. I do remember that when the starting lineup for the visiting team was announced at our home games, we students greeted each introduction with "Who's he?" until we were eventually asked to stop by some administrator (just don't remember which one).

During that period of time the Pep Band did play "Dixie" at least once each evening. Members of Kappa Alpha Order often stood when it was played..... including those who were from New Jersey and other state outside the southeast.

[captmojo]

Sports fandom is the epitome of revisionist history, as evident by the Hendo/Beaker incident last season. I can't think of anything where the perception of factual events is so strongly colored by allegiances and loyalties, not even politics.

Yes! Beaker. I love it! :D :D :D

[Rogue]

Early in the 65/66 season, Duke played UCLA, which had won the national championship the year before and was ranked #1 at the time, in back-to-back games, the first of which was played in the Duke Indoor Stadium (as it was then known) and the other in Greensboro. Duke won both games and consequently took over first place in the rankings. Sports Illustrated ran an article on the games under a sour headline that I don't remember word-for-word in its entirety but went something like this: "Racism Under The Southern Pines." The theme of the article was not that Duke had won two momentous upset victories but that anti-black racism was alive and well in DIS, as shown by the (alleged) fact that the stadium resounded with racist catcalls directed at UCLA's black players. I saw the game from the student section and never heard a single racist remark. After the article was published I asked a fair number of other students if they'd heard any racist heckling during the game, and all of them said they hadn't. AFAIK, SI's rap has never been corroborated by any Duke student who present. Maybe the reporter heard racist heckling that was inaudible to me and most others present, but he shouldn't have depicted it as having been blatant and widespread, which unfairly tarred the whole Duke community with a broad brush.

The second game was played the next night in Charlotte, at the old coliseum on Independence. I rode the bus from Wilmington to see the game. I was a kid don't recall the racist artical. I do recall that after the game, Coach Wooden said he'd never play a game in the state of NC again. He didn't till he had to, when UCLA played NCSU in the final 4 in Greensboro. Coach Wooden use to come to NC every summer though and work the Campbell College basketball camp with Press and Pete Maravich. He also did a lot of recruiting from that camp ( Henry Bibby ).
In the two games DUKE dominated. That year was also the year Lew Alcinder played on the JV team. The next year we went to LA and it was a different story. Our center was Mike Lewis and he was 6'7" .

[Kimist]

The second game was played the next night in Charlotte, at the old coliseum on Independence. I rode the bus from Wilmington to see the game. I was a kid don't recall the racist artical. I do recall that after the game, Coach Wooden said he'd never play a game in the state of NC again. He didn't till he had to, when UCLA played NCSU in the final 4 in Greensboro. Coach Wooden used to come to NC every summer though and work the Campbell College basketball camp with Press and Pete Maravich. He also did a lot of recruiting from that camp ( Henry Bibby ).
In the two games DUKE dominated. That year was also the year Lew Alcinder played on the JV team. The next year we went to LA and it was a different story. Our center was Mike Lewis and he was 6'7" .

Rogue, I was going to pick up on the Charlotte Coliseum (place looked like a round tin can!) correction, as I also attended the UCLA game there. I do recall that Duke absolutely ran the socks off of Wooden's team.

On the related "racial" topic, I do remember that at my high school (general area of Charlotte) the song that always got the fans pumped was "Dixie." People now would see it as a racial attack, or something comparable, but that was just not the context then. It was much more of a "We're proud Southerners" issue and when it was played the one or two times during the game it would get the home crowd highly motivated, not unlike the less-used (now) "Devil With A Blue Dress."

And you're correct about the man from Missoula (Bugsy?) - Lewis never had a chance against Lew.

k