JJ Redick playing time/roster issues [Archive]

_Gary

01-27-2008, 02:13 PM

Now that the NBA season is nearing the halfway mark, I think we can all finally agree that JJ is not going to succeed in Orlando under Van Gundy. He's firmly entrenched as the 11th or 12th guy off the bench and there's just no way he's going anywhere on this team. I haven't heard a peep about him in some time and I'm wondering two things:

1) Has anyone heard any substantial trade talks that would send JJ somewhere else?

2) Has anyone heard how JJ's demeanor is at this point?

I'm sure he has to be terribly disappointed by now. He went from supposedly vying for a starting position on the team in the pre-season to sitting way down the bench. I still believe there's a spot he can fill on an NBA team, but it just isn't going to happen in Orlando under SVG. I liken his situation somewhat to Dunleavy's when he was in GS. The circumstances are not exactly alike, I know. But in the same way Mike needed a change of scenery to prosper, JJ does too. I hope it happens for him because he is one of my favorite Dukies of all time.

Gary

freedevil

01-27-2008, 03:12 PM

Mudge

01-28-2008, 12:35 AM

This (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/basketball/cs-080120samsmith,0,499185.column?page=2) is the most recent thing I could find on JJ, from the Orlando Sentinel: basically, that if a team wants him, they could probably get him.

As for his demeanor, apparently a few days later he put on a shooting clinic before a game in Denver. Just went nuts from behind the 3.

Redick's demeanor was as positive as could be today, for a player who didn't play--he was among those Orlando bench players in warmup suits who ran out joyfully onto the court with huge smiles on their faces, to congratulate Hedo Turkoglu for hitting the game winning shot as time expired against the Celtics.

I am a huge fan of Redick, but if it is true that Redick doesn't play because the Magic already have 6'10" Turkoglu (as someone noted above) at small forward, you have to ask yourself the question: Could Redick have taken the ball one-on-one, dribbled away from a double-team, and then turned and hit that 3-point shot from well behind the arc, with 6'8" Paul Pierce in his face trying to deny the shot, as Turkoglu did today? That's a pretty tall order (pun intended), and that doesn't even get into defensive discussions.

I watched a recent Sports Science show that showed how tiny differences in reaction time make huge differences in athletes' ability to make cuts and elude/get away from opposing players; a difference of a few hundreths of a second translates into several feet of separation... if you think about this, all these articles talking about Redick having to "improve his defence" are basically wasted words, as he is not going to somehow develop better fundamentals that allow him to stay in front of guys that are just fractionally quicker than him-- he is the defensive player that he is going to be.

My question is, how is that guys like Mark Price and John and Jim Paxson, and Steve Kerr could fill this outside shooting role without being quick enough to guard opposing guards? Kerr played 15 years in the NBA with less size and no better quickness or shooting accuracy than Redick has-- was it just that he had the good fortune to spend most of that time on teams with Jordan and Duncan, who drew constant double teams-- and if that is the case, why isn't Dwight Howard's presence enough to open things up enough to justify Redick's presence? I know they say the other Orlando guards are better defensively, but I have a hard time believing they match Redick offensively-- and even with Pippen, Jordan, and Rodman on the same team, Kerr had to guard somebody-- how come he wasn't similarly glued to the Bulls bench?

MikeS

01-28-2008, 01:04 AM

Redick wouldn't have to pull up right in front of Pierce, he would have just pulled back to about 6 feet behind the three point line and then drain it.

Mudge

01-28-2008, 01:22 AM

Redick wouldn't have to pull up right in front of Pierce, he would have just pulled back to about 6 feet behind the three point line and then drain it.

Maybe in college, but the NBA line is a good 4 feet further out (23 ft. vs. 19 ft.), to begin with, and if you saw it, Turkoglu was probably a couple of feet behind the line, so he was probably in the vicinity of what you describe, and he still had a 6'8", very athletic, NBA All-Star jumping in his face-- I'm not sure if even Redick would succeed against that obstacle course.

_Gary

01-28-2008, 01:33 AM

JJ, at this point in his career, wouldn't be put in the same spot Turk was. No way would he be expected to go one on one against anyone (much less a stud like Pierce) with the game clock winding down. So the entire comparison is unfair and unrealistic. But JJ can be a contributor on the right team. I'm just completely convinced Orlando is NOT that team, just as I was years ago when I saw Dunleavy struggling in Golden State. Many differences, I know. But some similarities too. Redick just needs a change of scenery at this point.

Gary

Bay Area Duke Fan

01-28-2008, 02:23 AM

Maybe it's time for JJ to play overseas for a few years. Then he might make it back to the NBA some day. Playing abroad is better than sitting on the bench in Orlando.

Look at the success Trajan Langdon is having overseas.

JBDuke

01-28-2008, 04:40 AM

Those of you wondering what's up with JJ's minutes just need to take a look at the Orlando Magic roster from last year vs. this year.

Last year, the principle starters were: Howard, Battie, Turkoglu, Grant, and Nelson. Players averaging more than 20 mins a game included Ariza, Milicic, and Dooling. Of all 8 listed, only Turkoglu was a legit 3-point jump shooting threat. Nelson wasn't horrible, but 33.5% isn't going to win any shooting contests. Over 82 games, the entire team attempted 962 3-pointers. If JJ had been healthy through the summer and fall and been prepared to contribute right away, I'm guessing he would have had a chance, because they desperately needed another deep threat.

Now, let's look at this year. The starters are Howard, Turkoglu, Lewis, Nelson, and Bogans. Players getting more than 20 mins a game include Evans and Arroyo. Turkoglu, Lewis, and Bogans are ALL shooting better than 37% from the bonusphere. Nelson is up to 35% and Evans (33%) and Arroyo (34%) are doing okay from long distance. Through 45 games - just over half the season - the team has already attempted 1,114 3's!

Now, where can JJ bust into that rotation? JJ hasn't shown that he's so great a shooter at the pro level that he demands playing time over Bogans, and Bogans (and Evans, too) is considerably bigger AND more athletic than JJ, can score in more ways, and is a better defensive player.

In short, in one year and without changing addresses, JJ has gone from a team which really could have used him, if he had been healthy and ready to go, to a team that has a surfeit of the one thing JJ does really well. Add to this that Orlando is 28-18, in first place in the Southeast and third overall in the Eastern Conference, and there's little motivation to look for a change.

Unless things change radically in Orlando - like Bogans getting hurt (not that I'd wish that on anybody) - I don't see JJ getting much of a chance to showcase his skills this season. If Orlando is committed long-term to Turkoglu and Lewis, which they appear to be, JJ would appear to be trade bait.

Think what JJ could do for the Heat, who are really missing Jason Kapono, or in Philly, where the Sixers are shooting 32% as a team and only Louis Williams is over 34%.

BobbyFan

01-28-2008, 07:28 AM

My question is, how is that guys like Mark Price and John and Jim Paxson, and Steve Kerr could fill this outside shooting role without being quick enough to guard opposing guards? Kerr played 15 years in the NBA with less size and no better quickness or shooting accuracy than Redick has...

Price, Kerr, and John Paxson were all good to excellent ball-handlers, which allowed them to play PG. If Kerr and Paxson had been subpar at handling the ball, they wouldn't have been NBA players. Price was on a whole different level and was also a fantastic passer. And being defended by smaller players allowed Price and Kerr to take better advantage of their shooting abilities than Redick can against taller SGs.

And you are underrating Kerr's defense; he actually was a decent on-ball defender. Also, his height relative to other PGs was less limiting than Redick's to other SGs.

jzp5079

01-28-2008, 08:25 AM

to answer your question, he is on the trading block, but orlando has said they won't trade him unless they get a good piece in return. They consider him a nice asset... The league is short on shooters.

They are trying to get him moved by the trade deadline but it might not happen.

Dukiedevil

01-29-2008, 08:59 AM

I'd like to see him in Cleveland, Houston or LA (Lakers).

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0801/nba.players.need.change.scenery/content.10.html

Uncle Drew

01-29-2008, 09:36 AM

Price, Kerr, and John Paxson were all good to excellent ball-handlers, which allowed them to play PG. If Kerr and Paxson had been subpar at handling the ball, they wouldn't have been NBA players. Price was on a whole different level and was also a fantastic passer. And being defended by smaller players allowed Price and Kerr to take better advantage of their shooting abilities than Redick can against taller SGs.

And you are underrating Kerr's defense; he actually was a decent on-ball defender. Also, his height relative to other PGs was less limiting than Redick's to other SGs.

I wouldn't have considered Paxon and Kerr true point guards. But the Bulls had the ball In Jordan's hands so much any true point on that team wouldn't get the assists they would on another team. Truth be told IMO if you had put JJ in the same role as Kerr or Paxon on those Bulls squads he'd be doing just as well if not better. Jordan would drive in, draw a triple or double team and kick it out. Paxon and Kerr were WIDE open the vast majority of 3's they took. No one outside of Kobe or Lebron draws as much attention to leave a three point shooter open in todays NBA game.

That being said I think JJ and Sheldon are both in bad situations. Sheldon was drafted by a team with a glut of power forwards. He hasn't played poorly when inserted into the game, but those opportunities have been for very, very few minutes per game. A trade to a team that actually has a need at power forward (which team I have no idea) would be great for him. At the same time a trade to a team that needs a 3 point threat would be great for JJ. But I have a feeling both teams are content to leave both players at the end of the bench as back up plans should someone ahead of them get injured.

Indoor66

01-29-2008, 10:03 AM

I wouldn't have considered Paxon and Kerr true point guards. But the Bulls had the ball In Jordan's hands so much any true point on that team wouldn't get the assists they would on another team. Truth be told IMO if you had put JJ in the same role as Kerr or Paxon on those Bulls squads he'd be doing just as well if not better. Jordan would drive in, draw a triple or double team and kick it out. Paxon and Kerr were WIDE open the vast majority of 3's they took. No one outside of Kobe or Lebron draws as much attention to leave a three point shooter open in todays NBA game.

That being said I think JJ and Sheldon are both in bad situations. Sheldon was drafted by a team with a glut of power forwards. He hasn't played poorly when inserted into the game, but those opportunities have been for very, very few minutes per game. A trade to a team that actually has a need at power forward (which team I have no idea) would be great for him. At the same time a trade to a team that needs a 3 point threat would be great for JJ. But I have a feeling both teams are content to leave both players at the end of the bench as back up plans should someone ahead of them get injured.

Miami could use them both.

heavy g

01-29-2008, 11:24 AM

I love JJ and respect his immense talents. However, he will probably never make it in the NBA. He's slow, and always has been. He has overcome it to a large degree, but not in the NBA. You can't hang if all you can do is shoot in that league. Being undersized means you have to be faster than the people around you. JJ never will.

Kerr/Paxson were considerably faster on D, and I think the speed of the game has only increased since their time.

I hope I am dead wrong.

Shelden, on the other hand, will blossom as soon as he is in the right situation. He is a unique player/body who needs a unique opportunity.

Devils8780

01-29-2008, 12:03 PM

Similar to Kerr / Paxson with the Bulls, I believe Redick needs the PERFECT situation to succeed in the NBA. As it was mentioned on this thread, he needs the opportunity to shoot spot-up 3's, likely coming off passes from double-teamed teammates.

All players have strengths and weaknesses, but aside from his shot, there's nothing about Redick's game that says NBA. I realized this watching a random Duke game his sophomore year. To think otherwise simply equates to a case of denial.

However, I do believe that there are certain environments where that one and only skill can be exploited. I immediately think of Boston, but wherever it is, it'd have to be a loaded team with multiple players who regularly draw double-teams.

lazee

01-29-2008, 02:39 PM

Looks to be staying put for the time being, although things can change if the right deal comes along.

http://forums.floridatoday.com/viewtopic.php?t=69333
(http://forums.floridatoday.com/viewtopic.php?t=69333)

Representatives for J.J. Redick have repeatedly approached the Orlando Magic about a trade that could provide the seldom-used shooting guard more playing time, but general manager Otis Smith said there are no plans to move Redick anytime soon.

``We know that he can play, but as with a lot of young guys he just has to be patient,’’ said Smith, who drafted Redick 11th overall in the 2006 NBA Draft. ``If I trade him and he goes somewhere else and plays well, then what?

Van Gundy said he has conversations with his assistant coaches on a daily basis asking, `Should we be playing him?’ as it relates to Redick. He said Redick’s ardent practice habits and how he’s responded when put in games has made it difficult to keep Redick on the bench.

``I think about him all the time and he makes you think about him with the way he practices,’’ Van Gundy said. ``I know he’s really frustrated because there’s not much more he can do. He plays well out here in practice and when we give him chances in games he’s played well. That’s a frustrating thing, but he has to keep doing what he’s doing. It’s not a negative thing with him. I know he can help us and I’m sure he will.’’

Clipsfan

01-29-2008, 02:47 PM

All players have strengths and weaknesses, but aside from his shot, there's nothing about Redick's game that says NBA. I realized this watching a random Duke game his sophomore year. To think otherwise simply equates to a case of denial.

I'm not sure that I disagree that Redick's only NBA attribute is his shooting, but saying that you realized this during his sophomore year weakens your argument, IMHO. He drastically changed his body/game between his sophomore year and his senior year.

wilson

01-29-2008, 03:01 PM

The Van Gundy quotes are heartening. Clearly it's not just a case of "Coach and Player don't get along." If JJ is working and a relatively respected coach like SVG recognizes his potential to contribute in the long run, I'm hopeful that he'll get that chance.

juise

01-29-2008, 03:44 PM

Here (http://www.redicklive.com/redick/blogDetail/95) are JJ's thoughts from two weeks ago.

_Gary

01-29-2008, 04:19 PM

Here (http://www.redicklive.com/redick/blogDetail/95) are JJ's thoughts from two weeks ago.

You have to really feel for JJ. And I feel SVG is being completely truthful with his comments as well. It's not like last year when I really did think the coach was the problem with JJ not getting a shot. I believe Van Gundy, in his heart, would like to play JJ but his team is doing well enough that he just doesn't feel justified in shaking the rotation up that much. JJ has just been caught, as I said early this year, in a bad spot where several different factors have kinda conspired against him. And those factors are out of his control. I do believe he could play a good 10 to 15 minutes a game, but it's very hard to keep other guys off the floor. So the only logical thing to do is trade the guy, Orlando. Don't keep him on the bench as just an insurance policy in case another guy goes down. That's really not fair to him, even though I can't begrudge the organization for such thinking.

And Shelden is pretty much in the same situation. He could benefit from a change of scenery as well.

Gary

OldSchool

01-29-2008, 05:29 PM

JJ has just been caught, as I said early this year, in a bad spot where several different factors have kinda conspired against him.

I agree. It looked like at the beginning of the season, after a solid preseason, that JJ would get a fair share of the minutes, but it appears what happened is that Keith Bogans recognized the threat and stepped up his game. Bogans is scoring more threes this year and generally playing better, and took away the minutes that it looked like JJ was going to get. That, combined with the newly-acquired Rashard Lewis who can hit the three and Hedo Turkoglu who has become clutch from long-range, and JJ's best skill, outside shooting, is not so much in demand in Orlando. However, there are a number of other teams that could benefit from his shooting abilities.

BobbyFan

01-29-2008, 09:32 PM

Truth be told IMO if you had put JJ in the same role as Kerr or Paxon on those Bulls squads he'd be doing just as well if not better.

As I mentioned, JJ could never play point guard in the NBA; he doesn't have the ball-handling or passing skills, and opponents would run circles around him.

KandG

01-29-2008, 10:32 PM

There is a very good article on ESPN ( it seems to be Insider Access restricted, though it may be one of the articles that is occasionally made available for free preview) by John Hollinger about 20 notable NBA players flying under the radar (http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=Sleepers-080129). (a/k/a the All-Sleeper team)

The list includes players like Brendan Haywood, Rashad McCants, Ryan Gomes, and Kris Humphries. These are players that came into the league with potential but some big question marks. Granted in at least a few cases, the questions related more to attitude than to physical issues, but I'm intrigued as to whether players like JJ and Shelden are really doomed by their much documented physical limitations, or whether they really are in terrible situations with teams that have no use for their particular skillset.

I still think that JJ can make a big difference elsewhere -- not as a starter, but definitely as a shooter/offensive sparkplug off the bench. Shelden as well, though I worry more about him.

yancem

01-29-2008, 10:53 PM

As I mentioned, JJ could never play point guard in the NBA; he doesn't have the ball-handling or passing skills, and opponents would run circles around him.

But Kerr and Paxton didn't really play much point, at least not offensively. Jordan and Pippen had the ball the vast majority of the time. Kerr and Paxton mainly sat out on the perimeter and converted kick outs. There's no reason that JJ couldn't fill the same role if he was in a similar situation. I think that given the right team situation, JJ can be very successful, the problem that much like Dunleavy, he needs to be on a team that sees his value and plays a style that matches his abilities. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that there are more than a couple of teams that hit the bill.

SilkyJ

01-30-2008, 03:01 AM

I liken his situation somewhat to Dunleavy's when he was in GS. The circumstances are not exactly alike, I know. But in the same way Mike needed a change of scenery to prosper, JJ does too. I hope it happens for him because he is one of my favorite Dukies of all time.

Gary

mike was doing much better and was a much larger contributor at this point in his career than jj. he played in basically every game as a rookie avg around 15mpg and was a part of the rotation. his second year he became a major part of the rotation and i think he had a decent line like 30mpg, 10ppg, 5rpg, 3apg

the change of scenery has helped him improve his play for sure, unfortunately just like in GS his team still isn't winning...

Got_Duke

01-30-2008, 09:15 AM

MIKESJ73

01-30-2008, 09:42 AM

Here is an article from John Denton from Florida Today: http://forums.floridatoday.com/viewtopic.php?t=69333

JJ is apparently playing well in practice, but won't be traded.

A key point from Magic GM Otis Smith:
"Look at how many free agents at guard that I have coming up next summer - Carlos (Arroyo), Keyon (Dooling), Mo (Evans) and if the other guy (Keith Bogans) opts out, that would make four. J.J. could go from the bottom (of the depth chart) to the top, but he’s got to be patient."

and one from coach Stan Van Gundy:
"I think about him all the time and he makes you think about him with the way he practices," Van Gundy said. "I know he’s really frustrated because there’s not much more he can do. He plays well out here in practice and when we give him chances in games he’s played well. That’s a frustrating thing, but he has to keep doing what he’s doing. It’s not a negative thing with him. I know he can help us and I’m sure he will."

MikeS

01-30-2008, 10:45 AM

that sucks and of course they won't meet his trade demands. i wouldn't mind him seeing play in Cleveland, I'm not a Cav fan but he would be a good fit along side King James.

ugadevil

01-30-2008, 10:58 AM

That's got to be really frustrating for J.J. It's like the coach and GM are saying that he's playing as well as he can and working as hard as he can, but it's still not going to get him playing time. Also, it can't be easy to hear that you'll work your way up the depth chart if someone decides to opt out next season. Hopefully, he keeps up the good work and makes the most of his opportunity if any of the other guys begin to struggle.

lazee

01-30-2008, 12:24 PM

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_magic/2008/01/jj-reddicks-age.html

Van Gundy says Redick is smart, can shoot and is improving defensively in practice.

Van Gundy said he told Redick to just keep working "when J.J. came and talked to me . . . He just has to keep doing what he's doing. There's nothing negative with him. I've got confidence in him and I'm sure he'll help us when it's all over. I just don't know when."

"I have more confidence in Mo and Keith defensively and rebounding ---- that's sort of what we need," Van Gundy said. "I'll be honest, watching him practice . . . J.J.'s defending pretty well. So we'll have to see. That's been the big thing that should be a defensive rebounding spot for us."

Classof06

01-30-2008, 12:31 PM

I'd like to see him in Cleveland, Houston or LA (Lakers).

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0801/nba.players.need.change.scenery/content.10.html

I would LOVE to see him come to my Cavs. Unfortunately, I don't think Cleveland has the assets to make that work, haha.

I read an article interviewing Otis Smith (Orlando's GM) about 2-3 weeks ago and I remember him saying numerous teams have contacted the Magic about Redick but they're going to keep him. As a JJ fan, I'm getting pretty pissed off at Stan Van Gundy. He goes on and on over the summer and during the season about how JJ's valuable to the team and how he's improved on defense, etc. and yet he never gets in the game. If they're not going to play him, they should trade him. If Travis Diener is getting playing time in the NBA (the Magic let Diener go this summer), there's absolutely no reason JJ can't get time in the league.

Clipsfan

01-30-2008, 12:44 PM

But Kerr and Paxton didn't really play much point, at least not offensively. Jordan and Pippen had the ball the vast majority of the time. Kerr and Paxton mainly sat out on the perimeter and converted kick outs. There's no reason that JJ couldn't fill the same role if he was in a similar situation. I think that given the right team situation, JJ can be very successful, the problem that much like Dunleavy, he needs to be on a team that sees his value and plays a style that matches his abilities. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that there are more than a couple of teams that hit the bill.

I wonder if the Lakers would fit the bill? As Bynum develops he's starting to demand double teams down low, and the ball handling has often been done by Kobe and Odom. I know that they've got Fisher running the point at the moment, and he's both capable of hitting the 3 and getting his own shot, so there is no real need there (not to mention the presence of Farmar and Crittendon). Still, I'd love to see JJ playing out here and hopefully doing well.

Clipsfan

01-30-2008, 12:49 PM

I would LOVE to see him come to my Cavs. Unfortunately, I don't think Cleveland has the assets to make that work, haha.

I read an article interviewing Otis Smith (Orlando's GM) about 2-3 weeks ago and I remember him saying numerous teams have contacted the Magic about Redick but they're going to keep him. As a JJ fan, I'm getting pretty pissed off at Stan Van Gundy. He goes on and on over the summer and during the season about how JJ's valuable to the team and how he's improved on defense, etc. and yet he never gets in the game. If they're not going to play him, they should trade him. If Travis Diener is getting playing time in the NBA (the Magic let Diener go this summer), there's absolutely no reason JJ can't get time in the league.

From the article quoted above, it sounds like Smith is afraid to trade JJ and have him do well elsewhere, as that would imply that Smith gave him away too cheaply (unless he worked out a ridiculous trade). So, to avoid potential embarrassment, he'd rather just let JJ sit on the bench. A humorous part of the quote was that he couldn't remember Bogans' name. I mean, really...you've only got 15 or so guys you need to remember.

BobbyFan

01-30-2008, 06:46 PM

But Kerr and Paxton didn't really play much point, at least not offensively. Jordan and Pippen had the ball the vast majority of the time. Kerr and Paxton mainly sat out on the perimeter and converted kick outs.

This is a gross oversimplification. Kerr and Paxson brought the ball up frequently and as point guards, they were often the initiators of the triangle offense. They were certainly far from perfect at those facets, but not nearly as deficient as JJ would be. And it doesn't matter what situation JJ is in offensively, if he has to guard the opposing point guard, he won't be helping his team.

MikeS

01-31-2008, 12:12 AM

I remember his junior we played at Wake with Ewing, Duhon, and Nelson having fouled on JJ had to bring the ball up and we were down about 15 with 3 minutes left and he single handedly almost won the game. He was shooting off the dribble and was great. I think he can create his own shot he just isn't asked to. His great 3 pt stroke allows for that great pump fake to work.

Mudge

01-31-2008, 12:14 AM

hey Mudge

Redick's position is not SF so your argument that Orlando "already has a SF in Turkgolu" is a bit flawed. Redick's position is DEFINITELY SG and nothing else. At 6'4" he's even a bit small for his own position.

It wasn't my argument- it was somebody else's (in another thread), as I noted in my original post-- I'm pretty clear that 6'10" Turkoglu is not a guard, and 6'4" Redick is not a forward, but the original post contended that Turkoglu (and his outside shooting skill) were responsible for keeping Redick off the floor-- I guess because the Magic already have one relatively slow-footed white guy on the perimeter who can readily make 3-pointers, and don't intend to fill another of three possible outside positions with a second defensive liability, so they use lesser outside shooters (with allegedly better defensive skills) at both guard positions.

yancem

01-31-2008, 09:26 AM

I wonder if the Lakers would fit the bill? As Bynum develops he's starting to demand double teams down low, and the ball handling has often been done by Kobe and Odom. I know that they've got Fisher running the point at the moment, and he's both capable of hitting the 3 and getting his own shot, so there is no real need there (not to mention the presence of Farmar and Crittendon). Still, I'd love to see JJ playing out here and hopefully doing well.

Yeah the Lakers have the necessary parts and offensive system (hello coach Jackson) to be a good fit for JJ. The only problem is, as you mentioned, they already have a fair number of guards. With the possible exception of Fisher (and he is getting fairly old) none of them can shoot like JJ though.

yancem

01-31-2008, 09:37 AM

This is a gross oversimplification. Kerr and Paxson brought the ball up frequently and as point guards, they were often the initiators of the triangle offense. They were certainly far from perfect at those facets, but not nearly as deficient as JJ would be. And it doesn't matter what situation JJ is in offensively, if he has to guard the opposing point guard, he won't be helping his team.

I think that you are a) selling JJ a little short and b) giving Kerr and Paxton too much credit. Neither Kerr or Paxton had significantly better dribbling or passing skills than JJ. And while, they may have brought the ball up the court at times, when the opposing teams put on defensive pressure, the ball was in Jordan or Pippen's (they didn't invent the term point forward for him for no reason) hands. JJ is more than capable of bringing the ball up the court under normal conditions and certainly initiate the triangle offense, he's not completely devoid of skills.

As for guarding opposing point guards, did you watch Kerr play defense? He was far from a defensive stopper. JJ is never going to win any defensive awards but he should be able to guard anyone as well as Kerr could.

sagegrouse

01-31-2008, 12:04 PM

This from the last paragraph of the Orlando Sentinel article on possible trade (not gonna happen):

"Redick's chances of playing depend on the scoreboard now. The Magic face the hapless Heat tonight. If they can knock out their state rival early, maybe J.J. can see the floor."

The Magic beat the Heat by "only" 16, so JJ sat for another game.

sagegrouse

_Gary

01-31-2008, 05:27 PM

BobbyFan

01-31-2008, 10:36 PM

I think that you are a) selling JJ a little short and b) giving Kerr and Paxton too much credit. Neither Kerr or Paxton had significantly better dribbling or passing skills than JJ.

They absolutely did. JJ has quite subpar handling and passing skills for a SG; how do you think he would fare as a PG?

JJ is more than capable of bringing the ball up the court under normal conditions and certainly initiate the triangle offense, he's not completely devoid of skills.

The moment a defender notes that JJ is bringing the ball up, he would apply pressure which JJ would not handle. So, no, JJ could not bring up the ball against a quicker PG's defense. And initiating the triangle offense is about making the proper crisp pass without costing the recipient any steps in position; JJ is not one who would efficiently perform that task.

As for guarding opposing point guards, did you watch Kerr play defense? He was far from a defensive stopper. JJ is never going to win any defensive awards but he should be able to guard anyone as well as Kerr could.

Nice strawman; I never said Kerr was a defensive stopper. But he was a decent defender on-ball defender. JJ doesn't have anywhere near the quickness to be the same.

I really have no clue where you are coming up with this idea that JJ could handle, pass, and defend the point guard position at least as well as Kerr. As a point guard, JJ would be at or near the bottom of the league in those categories.

Mudge

02-05-2008, 05:07 AM

They absolutely did. JJ has quite subpar handling and passing skills for a SG; how do you think he would fare as a PG?

The moment a defender notes that JJ is bringing the ball up, he would apply pressure which JJ would not handle. So, no, JJ could not bring up the ball against a quicker PG's defense. And initiating the triangle offense is about making the proper crisp pass without costing the recipient any steps in position; JJ is not one who would efficiently perform that task.

Nice strawman; I never said Kerr was a defensive stopper. But he was a decent defender on-ball defender. JJ doesn't have anywhere near the quickness to be the same.

I really have no clue where you are coming up with this idea that JJ could handle, pass, and defend the point guard position at least as well as Kerr. As a point guard, JJ would be at or near the bottom of the league in those categories.

Other than that you apparently are a fan of Bobby Hurley, what makes you such an expert on point guard skills such that you can indisputably assess whether Redick is quick enough, dribbles well enough, passes well enough, or defends well enough to compare with Kerr, Paxson, or Price? Is it so because you say it's so? You have no idea whether Redick could bring the ball up the floor against another point guard, until you've seen him do it... as pointed out, he did it against a very good Wake Forest team, with a future NBA All-Star playing point guard against him, and did a very creditable job, as noted by another poster, almost single-handedly winning that game for Duke... maybe you should stop making pronouncements as though you were Red Auerbach's chief scout, or something.

jzp5079

02-05-2008, 09:50 AM

ever since the public request, jj hasn't seen 2 minutes of burn.

Acymetric

02-05-2008, 12:17 PM

ever since the public request, jj hasn't seen 2 minutes of burn.

That's not really all that different than what he was getting in the games before the request...

Dukiedevil

02-05-2008, 07:20 PM

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3232792

Looks like the Magic have no interest in trading Redick because they like him so much... They have several expiring contracts at guard, so I can understand their reluctance to trade him.

MikeS

02-05-2008, 07:34 PM

thats just bull, if your going to rely on him next year you play him this year some. plus keith bogans is in his way, which is just laughable. plus if they lose all of those guys its not like they will sign some others to replace them.

otis smith and van gundy are idiots.

BlueEarth

02-06-2008, 07:18 PM

JJ put up close to 30 a game in the ACC against defenses designed to stop him. ENTIRE defenses designed to stop a shooter. Some games he had two defenders near him at all times, and the defenders were always rotated to keep them fresh. He played against several current NBA guards and lit them up. His sophmore (junior?) year, he outplayed hinrich in the tourney.

I'm not saying that he'll ever be good in the NBA. But it's crazy to count him out just yet....

MikeS

02-09-2008, 07:33 PM

It appears that the Magic and Heat are in serious trade talks, the deal would involve JJ going to the Heat with Haslem going to Orlando, other guys would be involved to even out the contracts.

I think with Wade and Marion, JJ could become a very good pro.

JBDuke

02-09-2008, 10:00 PM

and like I said in a previous post, the Heat are in pretty desperate need for outside shooting.

yancem

02-09-2008, 11:12 PM

They absolutely did. JJ has quite subpar handling and passing skills for a SG; how do you think he would fare as a PG?

You apparently watched a different Kerr and paxton playing point guard for the Bulls than I did. You also seem to have watched a different Redick as well. He's not going to remind anyone of Jason Kid, but then again, I never claimed that he would.

The moment a defender notes that JJ is bringing the ball up, he would apply pressure which JJ would not handle. So, no, JJ could not bring up the ball against a quicker PG's defense. And initiating the triangle offense is about making the proper crisp pass without costing the recipient any steps in position; JJ is not one who would efficiently perform that task.

It sounds like you think that the only thing that JJ can do is shoot. He should never dribble, because everyone would steal the ball from him and passing forget it that would be an easy steal as well.

The triangle offense is about spacing and positioning which is why Kerr and Paxton where fine in it. Neither of them were very athletic, masterful ball handlers or passers. They knew where to run and where to throw the ball (to Jordan mostly) and most importantly they hit the open jumpers when they received the kick out.

Nice strawman; I never said Kerr was a defensive stopper. But he was a decent defender on-ball defender. JJ doesn't have anywhere near the quickness to be the same.

I really have no clue where you are coming up with this idea that JJ could handle, pass, and defend the point guard position at least as well as Kerr. As a point guard, JJ would be at or near the bottom of the league in those categories.

Where is my strawman? I never claimed that you said the Kerr was a defensive stopper. But you seem to think that his defensive abilities are superior to JJ's and I completely disagree. Kerr was not a god awful defender but he wasn't any better than average. Vangundy has even said that JJ's defense isn't bad, it's just not as good as the other guards and offense isn't the priority for them at the guard slot.

yancem

02-09-2008, 11:12 PM

Other than that you apparently are a fan of Bobby Hurley, what makes you such an expert on point guard skills such that you can indisputably assess whether Redick is quick enough, dribbles well enough, passes well enough, or defends well enough to compare with Kerr, Paxson, or Price? Is it so because you say it's so? You have no idea whether Redick could bring the ball up the floor against another point guard, until you've seen him do it... as pointed out, he did it against a very good Wake Forest team, with a future NBA All-Star playing point guard against him, and did a very creditable job, as noted by another poster, almost single-handedly winning that game for Duke... maybe you should stop making pronouncements as though you were Red Auerbach's chief scout, or something.

Thank you!

Acymetric

02-10-2008, 05:13 PM

Indoor66

02-10-2008, 05:19 PM

yancem

02-10-2008, 05:24 PM

I thought his contract was for three years, thus he would have one more year.

Actually, I think that the contract is a guaranteed 3 years with a team option for a 4th. So they can still get 2 more years out of him.

Acymetric

02-10-2008, 05:38 PM

I thought his contract was for three years, thus he would have one more year.

You're right. The first place I looked said 2 years, but everywhere else has said 3-4, so either things changed or whatever espn article I looked at was wrong. Oh well. Still wish they'd trade him.

JBDuke

02-10-2008, 09:26 PM

I can't for the life of me understand why they don't trade JJ...his contract expires this year, and based on how things have gone I can't imagine he'll sign with them again...so they either trade him now and get something back or lose him and gain nothing. Why not trade him? Whether or not he's good enough to play isn't even relevant in this part of the discussion. There are teams that would take him, why waste roster space and money on a player that won't play?

What is the point of having previous articles in a thread if people won't read them? Please read the articles linked by lazee or Dukiedevil earlier in this thread. Both of them describe how Magic GM Otis Smith has said that with the possibility of losing Evans, Dooling, Arroyo, and maybe Bogans this summer, they could have a real need at guard next year. THAT's why Smith is reluctant to trade JJ.

Acymetric

02-10-2008, 09:45 PM

What is the point of having previous articles in a thread if people won't read them? Please read the articles linked by lazee or Dukiedevil earlier in this thread. Both of them describe how Magic GM Otis Smith has said that with the possibility of losing Evans, Dooling, Arroyo, and maybe Bogans this summer, they could have a real need at guard next year. THAT's why Smith is reluctant to trade JJ.

You're right, I haven't read those...how'd you know? Wait, I have.

I'm saying that I will be surprised if JJ plays much more next year, regardless of who they lose. I could certainly be wrong, but based on this year and last year, someone saying "we might not have all our guards next year so he could get some pt" isn't all that convincing to me, especially since he's basically saying that JJ is worse than all 4 of those guys. If that's true, it doesn't seem like they'd want him to play a significant role next year.

They hardly even give him scrub minutes this season, so it's hard for me to see them planning to really use him next year. Outside of my Duke and JJ Redick bias, I think a trade makes more sense for both parties, since the Magic are wasting a roster spot and cash, and Redick is wasting his time. If he gets big minutes next year then obviously I'm completely wrong. But I'm calling it now that he won't get big minutes. He might get some, but not enough to justify keeping him. Not to mention, even if they want to play him next year, he really should get more time this year, at least in blowout games.

If I'm wrong I'll be perfectly willing to eat my words next season, feel free to call me on it, I'll admit it, I have no problem admitting I was wrong. I just don't think I am.

mgtr

02-10-2008, 10:09 PM

I believe that JJ is perfectly capable of handling the 2 guard position, but maybe not on a team such as the Magic which is absolutley loaded with 2 guards/wings. JJ has to either hope for injuries (nor good) or to be traded to a team which is short on such players (maybe the Heat).

greybeard

02-11-2008, 06:30 PM

In my opinion, JJ's lack of playing time is political. Orlando broke the bank to get Lewis; Lewis is going to get his, as in outside shots. Turk is having a banner year, and he is hitting the 3-ball. So, do you want JJ getting minutes, maybe outshooting both these guys, and then everybody wonders, "how come we spent all this money on an older shooter, when we had a better younger one."

At any rate, there are only so many long balls a team with Howard inside is going to want to take, especially factoring in the running game off of Howard's strength on the boards.

Having burried the kid for 1 1/2 seasons, what could they realistically expect to get for him? At the price they are paying, he's good insurance in case one of their shooters goes down; in the meantime, as long as he isn't filling it up for someone else, management doesn't look bad.

So, it's like the big studios buying up scripts that they'll never shoot just so the other guy doesn't shoot em and earn all the dough.

If Van Gundy is quoted accurately in this piece, he is an idiot! He tells the kid he'll never be able to play defense adequately, he likes everything else about his game, he has no spot for him to get minutes, but no, he won't trade him. Sitting on somebody's career like that deserves scorn. However, I think Stan is just saying what the GM tells him to, and therefore deserves more than just scorn. The word sell out comes to mind.

Coaches either have integrity with their players or they don't; they can't display it with just some.

Stan and his boss ought to play the kid or trade him.

If they don't, their team will lack integrity and never reach its potential, because those in positions of authority will deprive everyone on the team the one ingredient that is essential for team success. That, Stan the unman, would be trust.

yancem

02-11-2008, 10:32 PM

jzp5079

02-11-2008, 10:34 PM

That's not really all that different than what he was getting in the games before the request...

he was still getting a few minutes of garbage time... now I believe he's played in 1 of the last 8?

graybead

02-13-2008, 10:57 PM

Since Redick seems to want to play and Orlando is being stubborn and won't consider a trade or give him a few quality minutes, why wouldn't they send him to a D-League team?

I would think this would at least keep Redick in shape and give him some game experience. I don't know if he would want to do this, but at least he would play. Is Orlando so full of themselves that their afraid he'll light it up and look foolish?

I was really looking forward to watching him play this year and it's been very dissapointing for all the fans.:confused:

BlueDevilJay

02-14-2008, 09:33 AM

yancem

02-14-2008, 09:39 AM

jipops

02-14-2008, 09:49 AM

Im not an NBA guru by any means, matter of fact, I really can't stand the league. I can't see why he's not getting any PT either, its not like Orlando is setting the world on fire winning games or anything. I hope for JJ's sake he can get them to trade him to a team that desperately needs a good 2 guard, and we can finally see what he has (although most of us here already know what he has)

If you can't stand the league you should at least know what you're stating. Orlando is 1st in their division and one of the major surprises of the season so far, so actually they are setting the world on fire a bit. There has also been some incredibly entertaining basketball so far this season in the nba, you should have checked out the Suns-Warriors game last night.

So anyways about JJ... Orlando has actually given him many opportunities to prove himself. The guy simply has huge problems guarding opposing 2 guards. This is the simple reason why he doesn't play much. A team with a chance at a #1 seed in the playoffs like Orlando cannot afford to risk giving up some wins just to play a guy.

dukelifer

02-14-2008, 10:01 AM

If you can't stand the league you should at least know what you're stating. Orlando is 1st in their division and one of the major surprises of the season so far, so actually they are setting the world on fire a bit. There has also been some incredibly entertaining basketball so far this season in the nba, you should have checked out the Suns-Warriors game last night.

So anyways about JJ... Orlando has actually given him many opportunities to prove himself. The guy simply has huge problems guarding opposing 2 guards. This is the simple reason why he doesn't play much. A team with a chance at a #1 seed in the playoffs like Orlando cannot afford to risk giving up some wins just to play a guy.

If Orlando cannot use him, why not trade him? It seems like he is in purgatory- he collects a big paycheck for only helping in practice. JJ may want to consider playing overseas where he could become beloved.

AnotherNYCDukeFan

02-14-2008, 10:04 AM

Additionally, Van Gundy has stated that the one true asset that JJ does bring (3 point shooting) is being sufficiently filled by R. Lewis and Turkoglu in the front court. Therefore, he goes with more defensive minded 2 guards.

Orlando has repeatedly stated that his work ethic and practice habits are admirable. However, he just doesn't fit with their current needs.

On a related note, I wanted to reach through the TV and strangle Vitale last night when he started mentioning JJ's NBA experience. He spent an entire year wildly proclaiming the success JJ was going to have, but then threw him under the bus by saying he's lost confidence. Vitale lives in central Florida, so he should be reading all the accounts of how JJ lights everyone up in practice. Lack of confidence is not his problem.

darthur

02-14-2008, 10:11 AM

I haven't been following JJ in the NBA so this may not be right, but my understanding was Orlando was losing (or was in danger of losing) one of their guards at the end of the year. Therefore, they want to hold Redick so they can use him then. They are probably also reluctant to trade him since his trade value is probably quite low, what with never getting played and all.

ugadevil

02-14-2008, 10:32 AM

If Orlando cannot use him, why not trade him? It seems like he is in purgatory- he collects a big paycheck for only helping in practice. JJ may want to consider playing overseas where he could become beloved.

The reasons about why the Magic won't trade J.J. have been discussed in the other thread about Redick. There are links to articles about why the G.M. doesn't want to move J.J.

dukegirlinsc

02-14-2008, 10:36 AM

Im not an NBA guru by any means, matter of fact, I really can't stand the league. I can't see why he's not getting any PT either, its not like Orlando is setting the world on fire winning games or anything. I hope for JJ's sake he can get them to trade him to a team that desperately needs a good 2 guard, and we can finally see what he has (although most of us here already know what he has)

The Wizards are 7 games behind Orlando for first place. Granted, all of the other teams in the league who are in first place still have their loss records lingering in the teens, and Orlando's at 21...

But why fix something that isn't broken? Their system is currently working, and as sad as it is, JJ doesn't currently fit. Jameer Nelson is just plain nasty, as are Bogans and Maurice Evans. Would it be smart to let Jordan Davidson have more minutes than Greg Paulus right now? Not really. (Nothing personal Jordan...lol) JJ probably isn't someone Orlando wants to get rid of, he obviously has talent, and they're aware of that...maybe they just haven't figured out how to truly utilize it yet.

dukelifer

02-14-2008, 10:48 AM

The reasons about why the Magic won't trade J.J. have been discussed in the other thread about Redick. There are links to articles about why the G.M. doesn't want to move J.J.

I do recall reading that. Still- a tough place to be for someone who loves to play ball. I guess they figure he too good for the D league and not good enough for the Big-league - so he is in purgatory for sure.

ugadevil

02-14-2008, 10:51 AM

I do recall reading that. Still- a tough place to be for someone who loves to play ball. I guess they figure he too good for the D league and not good enough for the Big-league - so he is in purgatory for sure.

It's a tough spot for both parties. I think they like having him in practice because he's a challenge for the other guys on the team. If they send him down, they don't have him in practice. They can't trade him with the fear that he'll do really well and then they've wasted their draft pick. Maybe he should ask to be traded to the Mavs for Devaen George?

TheGodfather

02-14-2008, 02:12 PM

If you can't stand the league you should at least know what you're stating. Orlando is 1st in their division and one of the major surprises of the season so far, so actually they are setting the world on fire a bit.Overall Orlando has only the 12th best record in the NBA. They have only the 18th best home record in the NBA. They may be 3rd in the East but their record would make them 10th in West

True, The Magic got off to a hot start. But since the beginning of December their record is 19 -17 (barely a winning record). I suppose you can consider this "setting the world on fire" but it doesn't seem like enough to tell someone else they don't know what they are stating. It just appears you have a rather low bar for what constitutes setting the world on fire.

If the goal for Orlando is simply to make the playoffs, I suspect they will accomplish that by simply playing in the East. But being 12 out of 30 in the overall scene of the NBA shouldn't impress many. They look like a middle of pack team getting worse instead of better.

So anyways about JJ... Orlando has actually given him many opportunities to prove himself. The guy simply has huge problems guarding opposing 2 guards. This is the simple reason why he doesn't play much. A team with a chance at a #1 seed in the playoffs like Orlando cannot afford to risk giving up some wins just to play a guy.

When did Orlando give JJ these "many opportunities to prove himself?"

Orlando as a team as huge problems guarding 2 guards. Numerous 2 guards have had their season high playing the Magic this season. No one on Orlando is playing what could be considered defense against opposing 2s.

Orlando is currently ten back of Boston with less than thirty to play for that #1 seed in the playoffs you think they are challenging for. In other words they are closer to falling out (9.5 up on the 9th seed) than they are of reaching the top.

NovaScotian

02-15-2008, 08:44 PM

Shelden for JJ.

Come on, think about it.

greybeard

02-16-2008, 11:45 AM

Excellent discussion!

VanGundy might be losing his gripe. Last week he went off on Howard for not listening to him and doing better on the defensive boards.

Maybe the problem on the defensive boards needs to be solved elsewhere. Turkolou and Lewis can shoot but cannot rebound or help defend the interior. So VanGundy looks to play a guy who is a natural small forward but is too small at the big guard, when he actually has two natural big guards playing small and big forward. And, he goes off on Howard?

I agree with the posters who say that something is seriously broken in Orlando; the Lewis trade was stupid unless you were prepared to move Turkolou, whom you didn't need to move so the Lewis trade was just stupid, in my opinion.

BobbyFan

02-16-2008, 01:57 PM

BobbyFan

02-16-2008, 02:02 PM

It sounds like you think that the only thing that JJ can do is shoot. He should never dribble, because everyone would steal the ball from him and passing forget it that would be an easy steal as well.

As an NBA point guard, the only skill at which JJ would be average or better at is shooting. Yes, I believe that.

The triangle offense is about spacing and positioning which is why Kerr and Paxton where fine in it. Neither of them were very athletic, masterful ball handlers or passers. They knew where to run and where to throw the ball (to Jordan mostly) and most importantly they hit the open jumpers when they received the kick out.

A few more strawmen. I never stated they were "masterful" ball handlers or passers. But they were adequate. And I don't think JJ would be. You can't just plug any shooter into a triangle offense and expect it to succeed; remaining responsibilities persist.

Where is my strawman? I never claimed that you said the Kerr was a defensive stopper. But you seem to think that his defensive abilities are superior to JJ's and I completely disagree. Kerr was not a god awful defender but he wasn't any better than average. Vangundy has even said that JJ's defense isn't bad, it's just not as good as the other guards and offense isn't the priority for them at the guard slot.

Your strawman was pretty clearly implied. Regardless, I've seen JJ defend shooting guards and he has been below average. To think he would improve guarding quicker point guards is wishful thinking.

jzp5079

02-19-2008, 10:54 AM

this sums it up

"I said this two weeks ago, and I'll say it again, I'm not trading J.J. Reddick [before the deadline]," Smith said. "That I will tell you for sure." -- Orlando Sentinel

heavy g

02-19-2008, 12:01 PM

You guys have to face the reality that JJ is likely only a journeyman-level talent in the NBA. I love the guy, but all this business of blaming the Magic for his lack of success is misguided. JJ was a little slow of foot in college. He managed to have a fantastic career despite that. He's a lot slow in the NBA.

Do you remember the college games where JJ struggled to get an open look? Do you remember how much he relied on DEEP threes, turnarounds and the quick-release? Do you remember how hard he had to work off the ball? Do you remember how many shots he hit that the defender just barely missed blocking? These things are not so easy to translate directly into the NBA, especially when you lack footspeed. It's a different game played at a different level.

Paulus is similar. Great guy, great shooter, a little too slow to run with the premier guards of the world.

CameronBornAndBred

02-19-2008, 07:10 PM

I think D League is a great idea. If they flat out won't play him, (and they said they won't) then at least they should keep him in game shape. And JJ will have a lot more fun playing anywhere vs anybody then keeping his warm up on.
On that note, I wish I could get paid millions to be told I not only didn't I have to work for it, but that my boss doesn't want me to.

DukieBoy

02-19-2008, 10:04 PM

As much as I hate to admit it....I have to agree with dukegirlinsc....Why would Orlando jeopardize a system that is obviously working.....I can also see however why Orlando is keeping him, fearing the worst if they lose all four guards...I think that if they sign 2-3 of those guards who will be free agents to contracts, they need trade J.J. because then they will be out of excuses and his contract will be closer to expiring. Dunleavy struggled (not nearly as badly) in Golden State, but now that he is on the Pacers, he seems to be one of their best players. I think a change of scenery to a place like Miami or Cleveland could help him. At Miami, Wade and Marion would draw double teams while J.J. could have a field day (like Kapono did) from behind the arc. Similar things could happen in Cleveland, but Daniel "Boobie" Gibson has shown he can hit the three ball. Another thing that would work is L.A. The triangle system worked for Kerr and Paxson and could work for J.J. However, I don't think L.A. has much left to give up to acquire J.J.

On a similar note, I'm happy to see that Sheldon got away from the power forward happy Hawks. I'm not sure of the Kings big man situation, but there is no way it could be as bad as the Hawks was.

Oh Canada

02-22-2008, 09:13 AM

Just wanted to know your thoughts on Orlando's inactivity.

I know they have stated that JJ was not on the table because of all the free agency that Orlando will have to deal with in the offseason but a shooter of his caliber may have been beneficial to a team for the stretch drive.

Does this mean he may climb the depth chart next year?

dukegirlinsc

02-22-2008, 10:19 AM

I hate to say it, but I'm not shocked. I didn't think he was going to be a flat-out superstar in the NBA like he was in college, at least not right off the bat...and especially not in Orlando. I don't think he fits in with their "grand scheme of things", if you will. I hope they eventually do find a way to get him a little PT, or find a team that will.

It's almost the same situation Taylor King is in, oddly enough. They're both amazing shooters, we all know this. The talent is there. Taylor's been seeing more PT as of late (well, the Miami game at least) and made two big shots Wednesday night, while also making some mistakes. Taylor's young, and JJ is still young in the league. Hopefully with time, some adjustments and whatnot, things will smooth out. For both of them. I know it has to be frustrating. :mad:

jzp5079

02-22-2008, 10:47 AM

Hmm.

JJ was not traded because... Orlando deems him to be a good player. He IS valuable to Orlando.

the glass is half full - but in this case for JJ - its looking half full of old milk.

Jaymf7

02-22-2008, 10:59 AM

JJ was not traded because... Orlando deems him to be a good player. He IS valuable to Orlando.

the glass is half full - but in this case for JJ - its looking half full of old milk.

The pessimist might say...

Perhaps he was not traded because he has no meaningful trade value. Although he has never produced real stats in games that have not been decided (mostly due to lack of PT), he has the contract of a lottery pick. Under such circumstances, other teams (even those in need of a spot up shooter) are not willing to make any offer that would motivate Orlando to make a move.

Of course, if this were the case, it is Orlando's own fault in failing to develop young talent. They likely know this and figure he has enough upside that the benefits of keeping him on the bench outweigh the risks of trading him for little in return.

dball

02-22-2008, 11:26 AM

The pessimist might say...

Perhaps he was not traded because he has no meaningful trade value. Although he has never produced real stats in games that have not been decided (mostly due to lack of PT), he has the contract of a lottery pick.

I doubt his contract amount is much of an issue. JJ makes $1.8M a year which is a huge amount granted, but less than half of the "average" NBA salary ($3.7M).

UrinalCake

02-22-2008, 11:37 AM

Unfortunately the NBA is a business and Orlando has no reason to trade him just to be nice to him or because his talent is being "wasted." In order to make a trade they'd have to get back someone with an equal salary, which would probably mean another second-year player. What second-year player could they get that would fill a need that they don't have, more so than Redick does?

The alternative is to include him in a bigger trade involving other players, but since they decided not to make any moves then it looks like JJ is stuck on the bench. It's a shame to think how many other quality players in the league are in similar situations, waiting in oblivion due to salary reasons or whatever.

hq2

02-22-2008, 12:51 PM

Yes, it looks like J.J. is stuck for now. However, I think there's a good chance he could be moved in the off season. Orlando is a team which has Howard and good three point shooting, and that's about it.
I don't see them getting much better until they can pick up a 3 Paul Pierce/Josh Howard-type player who can drive into the defense and give them more offensive variety. I think there are some teams out there who need three point shooting and have that kind of player to trade (Michael Finley?- maybe too old) who would be willing to make some kind of package deal involving Redick. I'd look for that to
happen in the off season.

yancem

02-22-2008, 03:26 PM

The pessimist might say...

Perhaps he was not traded because he has no meaningful trade value. Although he has never produced real stats in games that have not been decided (mostly due to lack of PT), he has the contract of a lottery pick. Under such circumstances, other teams (even those in need of a spot up shooter) are not willing to make any offer that would motivate Orlando to make a move.

Of course, if this were the case, it is Orlando's own fault in failing to develop young talent. They likely know this and figure he has enough upside that the benefits of keeping him on the bench outweigh the risks of trading him for little in return.

If Orlando would trade for Darko after 2 years of nothing in Detroit than I'm pretty sure that there is a team willing to gamble on JJ.

yancem

02-22-2008, 04:04 PM

A few more strawmen. I never stated they were "masterful" ball handlers or passers. But they were adequate. And I don't think JJ would be. You can't just plug any shooter into a triangle offense and expect it to succeed; remaining responsibilities persist.

Really?

Price, Kerr, and John Paxson were all good to excellent ball-handlers, which allowed them to play PG. If Kerr and Paxson had been subpar at handling the ball, they wouldn't have been NBA players. Price was on a whole different level and was also a fantastic passer. And being defended by smaller players allowed Price and Kerr to take better advantage of their shooting abilities than Redick can against taller SGs.

And you are underrating Kerr's defense; he actually was a decent on-ball defender. Also, his height relative to other PGs was less limiting than Redick's to other SGs.

I had to go back to look at your posts to make sure I wasn't truly misrepresenting your arguments. The last sentence is what really demonstrates your lack of knowledge about Steve Kerr (I totally missed it the first time I read it). Kerr is is 6'1" vs Reddick which is 6'4". By the way, Kerr's best season averages during his tenure in Chicago were 8.6 ppg, 2.6 apg and 24.8 mpg. I think that JJ is certainly capable of those levels of production if he finds a team that wants to utilize him.

BTW, NBA.com's website is ridiculously slow:(

kramerbr

02-27-2008, 09:15 PM

Getting some PT tonight.

Bluedog

02-27-2008, 09:46 PM

Getting some PT tonight.

Yep, not bad. 10 pts on 4-10 shooting (2-4 from three) in 16 minutes of action.

CDu

02-27-2008, 11:42 PM

If Orlando would trade for Darko after 2 years of nothing in Detroit than I'm pretty sure that there is a team willing to gamble on JJ.

There's a big difference. Darko was a 21-year-old 7-foot post player with (supposedly) a varied skillset and loads of potential stuck behind arguably the best 3-man post rotation in the NBA. Redick is an undersized spot shooter who lacks athleticism and may be a defensive liability, and couldn't crack a backcourt rotation that doesn't exactly have a lot of standouts at SG. Milicic was a former top-2 pick as an 18 year old. Redick was a mid-first rounder after four years of college.

I'm guessing he wasn't traded because there just wasn't a market. That's not to say that there's not a niche he could fill. It's just that teams don't trade for a guy who doesn't play at all unless (a) he's a big man with great potential, (b) he's a kid stuck behind a star player, or (c) both.

yancem

02-28-2008, 12:10 AM

There's a big difference. Darko was a 21-year-old 7-foot post player with (supposedly) a varied skillset and loads of potential stuck behind arguably the best 3-man post rotation in the NBA. Redick is an undersized spot shooter who lacks athleticism and may be a defensive liability, and couldn't crack a backcourt rotation that doesn't exactly have a lot of standouts at SG. Milicic was a former top-2 pick as an 18 year old. Redick was a mid-first rounder after four years of college.

I'm guessing he wasn't traded because there just wasn't a market. That's not to say that there's not a niche he could fill. It's just that teams don't trade for a guy who doesn't play at all unless (a) he's a big man with great potential, (b) he's a kid stuck behind a star player, or (c) both.

I get your point but his best season in Detroit was 6.9 mpg and 1.8 ppg (Redick averaged 14.8 mpg and 6.0 ppg as a rookie). Even on a good team with a strong front court you would think that he could have earned more pt if he was as good as billed. Even once he got to Orlando he only averaged 23.9 mpg and 8.0 ppg last year. I doubt that Redick will ever be a star but I would think that his shooting ability would be valuable to someone. Also, let's not forget that he was also a fairly high draft pick, former NPOY and college scoring machine. None of that necessarily translates into nba success but then again neither does being "21-year-old 7-foot post player with (supposedly) a varied skillset and loads of potential"

I think that he probably generated some trade interest but also has some value to the Magic, at least down the road. Hopefully, next year he will either get a chance to play or a change of scenery.

CDu

02-28-2008, 08:21 AM

I get your point but his best season in Detroit was 6.9 mpg and 1.8 ppg (Redick averaged 14.8 mpg and 6.0 ppg as a rookie). Even on a good team with a strong front court you would think that he could have earned more pt if he was as good as billed. Even once he got to Orlando he only averaged 23.9 mpg and 8.0 ppg last year. I doubt that Redick will ever be a star but I would think that his shooting ability would be valuable to someone. Also, let's not forget that he was also a fairly high draft pick, former NPOY and college scoring machine. None of that necessarily translates into nba success but then again neither does being "21-year-old 7-foot post player with (supposedly) a varied skillset and loads of potential"

I think that he probably generated some trade interest but also has some value to the Magic, at least down the road. Hopefully, next year he will either get a chance to play or a change of scenery.

I'm not arguing that trading for Darko was a good idea. I'm just making the case as to why he had some trade value and Redick doesn't. In the NBA, big guys with potential have value. Even if there are red flags abound about the guy (like Darko), a 21-year-old 7-footer with potential is a big deal. An undersized, underathletic guard who is basically a shooter only is not a big deal, especially when he's a guy who played four years of college (i.e., low on "upside").

Obviously, the Milicic deal was a bad idea. But it's the type of mistake GMs are willing to live with. Finding the next big thing in the post is worth a gamble - getting a spot shooter who may not be able to stay on the floor defensively and doesn't contribute anything other than shooting isn't worth a gamble.

FerryFor50

02-28-2008, 10:42 AM

What I don't get is, who cares about Redick's defense?

It's not like the NBA is known for its defense as a whole. And undersized spot shooter at 6'4"?

Some notable successful spot up shooters' heights:

Steve Kerr - 6'1"
John Paxson - 6'2"
Craig Hodges - 6'2"
Jeff Hornacek - 6'4"
Damon Jones - 6'3"

Billy Dat

02-28-2008, 11:49 AM

...that's the problem. He's a defensive coach.

JJ needs a different situation. Forget the Kerr comparisons...if Jason freakin Kapono can be a rotation guy in the NBA, so can JJ. But, unless you are a super star, making it in the NBA is all about finding the right situation. JJ is a lights out shooter, that is a extremely valuable commodity. Orlando might have been a great fit this year if Turgolu (sp?) hadn't been acquired. I hope when JJ becomes a free agent he bases his decision 100% on where he will play, rather then how good the team is. He needs PT to build his value and get leverage.

MarineTwinsDad

02-28-2008, 12:19 PM

So, who is the better players, McCants or JJ?

SilkyJ

02-28-2008, 01:37 PM

It's not like the NBA is known for its defense as a whole. And undersized spot shooter at 6'4"?

And he's not just a spot-up shooter he can hit coming off all kinds of screens, fading away/to the side. He can't necessarily elevate over people, but he doesn't have to stand in the corner and hope the ball comes to him off of penetration or ball rotation.

So, who is the better players, McCants or JJ?

McCants. He's quicker, more athletic, and a better ball handler. He's also a damn good shooter. Not great, or as good as JJ, but good.