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View Full Version : Duke MBB vs Virginia Tech Post-Game Thread



Bob Green
01-24-2008, 08:25 PM
Place your post game comments here.

thomas
01-24-2008, 08:31 PM
I am not sure if we are the 4th best team in the country or the best team in the ACC, but I sure do love our toughness. Wow.

77devil
01-24-2008, 08:31 PM
Goon squad

Saratoga2
01-24-2008, 08:39 PM
It was a very physical game with VT players, especially Washington, playing aggressive and chippy ball. It was also a game where the refs seemed to be having trouble making up their minds what a foul was. I was kind of amazed toward the end, to look up and see Duke leading by 21. How did that happen?

As much as I can tell, Duke played good defense for the most part and hung tough as the game got rough. Duke also shot pretty well but I think what the secret of their success tonight was the balance they showed in scoring and handling the ball. Both Paulus and Smith had good nights at the point. Singlar gets my vote for man of the match as he really carried the team for a stretch. But there was also balance with Henderson and Nelson keeping the pressure on and King had one of his best games overall. We kept up the pressure no matter who was on the floor.

Great game for the kids and it was good to see futher development in Thomas. He is definitely making strides and on the way back to being a solid player. It wasn't Scheyer's night, but the fact that he had 4 fouls tells you something about the physical game. Jon never has that many fouls.

Another great game for Duke along the way to a terrific season.

heath_harshman4
01-24-2008, 08:40 PM
Anyone seen Taylor King???

He went missing on the way to VT, but somehow was STILL hitting 3s from literally, downtown....that kids range is amazazazazing...

heath_harshman4
01-24-2008, 08:41 PM
actually we are the 3rd best, and THE best in the ACC...

THE POLLS NEVER LIE....(totally sarcasm)

dukelifer
01-24-2008, 08:41 PM
Strange game. No one really played great- but a lot of contributions from different players throughout the game and Duke wins easily. This balance is the hallmark of the team and every player seems to have a different moment when they step up. Paulus played well early- then King- then Nelson- then Singler and so on. The biggest complaint of the game was Duke poor free throw shooting- mostly by Henderson. He needs to be able to knock those down as he will be driving and getting fouled a lot. in tight games. Va tech stayed in the game in the first half mostly due to poor free throw shooting by Duke. I continue to like the growth of Smith.He is going to be very good. He sees the floor very well and can create his own shot. Lance had one of his better games- active- hit some shots- made some throws- got some boards. If he gives Duke this kind of game consistently- they will be tough to beat. Of course- Tech did not have their beef in the middle - but a good game is a good game. Scheyer was very quiet but hit some nice shots at the end when Duke was milking the clock . The slowdown worked tonight. Ugly game but an excellent second half by Duke. They really game out of the halftime playing very well. Winning this big on the road is not easy- particularly against a team that plays hard on D like Tech. All and all a good night by Duke.

mgtr
01-24-2008, 08:41 PM
I am guessing that the MOTM is Singler, but it really ought to be the team. Not our kind of game, but the guys reacted with style. I was very, very proud of Duke tongiht. Sorry that I went to Virginia Tech.

phaedrus
01-24-2008, 08:43 PM
king's two 25+ footers had me laughing out loud. i really just don't know how else to respond to that kind of awesomeness.

wisteria
01-24-2008, 08:44 PM
Lance is making strides out there. Anyone agrees?

A messy game that I don't know how to comment on. But we were tough, and we kept our poise in such hostile environment. Our guys showed great great maturity compared to last year.

Constantstrain 81
01-24-2008, 08:45 PM
is to adjust to the situation and adapt to it. The team never seemed to get rattled (Nelson's "T" aside) and kept with the flow. The officiating (and I don't know how you officiate a game like this anyway) was simply sort of "random." It's a foul - it's not. Let 'em play - tighten it up. Anyway, it disrupted everyone's pacing, but we adapted better and faster. Deron's antic's (which could have injured someone or started a genuine fight) were the only real poor mark.

Good team play by, well, everyone. We don't have the size of the last two National Champions (Florida), but we seem to be getting the team play and unselfishness that characterized them. In addition, the team seems comfortable (me, too, as a fan) with the fact that when the depth factor kicks in during the second half, we will pull away. You have to have nerve and confidence for that.

zingit
01-24-2008, 08:45 PM
I am not sure if we are the 4th best team in the country or the best team in the ACC, but I sure do love our toughness. Wow.

Amen! Coach K was right to question our toughness after the Pitt loss, but it looks like the team has made leaps and bounds in that area. And we hadn't done so well in games away from home before, but we made a statement here tonight.

jjasper0729
01-24-2008, 08:45 PM
lance was good... he finished in the first half which has got to be good for his confidence. i wouldn't say he was invisible in the second half, but he didn't contribute as much as he did in the first half... at least I thought (but what do i know)

Karl Beem
01-24-2008, 08:45 PM
Tools. Can't say much about some of the VT players either.

Fish80
01-24-2008, 08:47 PM
I skimmed the posts and haven't seen this discussed yet - why was DeMarcus T'd up? Was it something he said, or because he stepped towards Washington?

wisteria
01-24-2008, 08:47 PM
king's two 25+ footers had me laughing out loud. i really just don't know how else to respond to that kind of awesomeness.

I hear ya. When he shot that one, the clock was like 18 seconds or so. I was like, "WTF!" And then, my jaw just dropped to floor. I can remember how many times I have been surprised with King's range. SICK range! :eek:

jjasper0729
01-24-2008, 08:48 PM
I skimmed the posts and haven't seen this discussed yet - why was DeMarcus T'd up? Was it something he said, or because he stepped towards Washington?

after he got fouled by washington, he started jawing and must have said something along the lines of a bull durham no-no because hess t-ed him up pretty quick.

Karl Beem
01-24-2008, 08:50 PM
after he got fouled by washington, he started jawing and must have said something along the lines of a bull durham no-no because hess t-ed him up pretty quick.

The Captain's momma always told him to tell the truth.:D

wisteria
01-24-2008, 08:50 PM
I skimmed the posts and haven't seen this discussed yet - why was DeMarcus T'd up? Was it something he said, or because he stepped towards Washington?

I think he said something. Dmark had been on the verge of losing control for most of the second half. I don't blame him.

mapei
01-24-2008, 08:50 PM
Loved the depth, loved the balance. I agree that no one was outstanding all game; it was more a guy here, a guy there.

Why all the chippiness? Why the loud booing every time Paulus touched the ball?

Henderson's FT shooting sucks.

CatfiveCane
01-24-2008, 08:51 PM
that was a good old fashion ACC game. No holds bar.

Shows that Duke will not Back Down. Nelson, though, needs to keep his composure.

Overall a good win considering the contact.

Bob Green
01-24-2008, 08:51 PM
There are many positives from tonight's victory starting with balanced scoring and balanced minutes. Four players scored in double figures plus T. King with nine points on 60% shooting from behind the 3-point arc. Eight players logged double digit minutes. Lance Thomas and Dave McClure combined for 12 points and 6 rebounds in 24 minutes of action. Those two scoring points is a significant development in the maturing of this team. Duke had 15 assists to nine for VT. VT turned the ball over 22 times compared to Duke's 12. VT did outrebound Duke 37 - 34.

Overall, a great win on the road. I'm a happy camper!

bhd28
01-24-2008, 08:51 PM
I skimmed the posts and haven't seen this discussed yet - why was DeMarcus T'd up? Was it something he said, or because he stepped towards Washington?

Something he said. Rediculous. Considering all the chippy stuff Washington had done all game, the REFS should have said something to him about it. Nelson did and got ejected. Pretty pathetic, really. Those Refs are just really, really bad. It is by FAR the worst group I have seen... over and over (really, every time I am at a game and see that group, I know I am going home horse).

4decadedukie
01-24-2008, 08:51 PM
As I have been in several earlier Duke-ACC games, I was appalled by the officiating (perhaps with bias, but principally to VT's advantage, in my opinion). Washington -- as is his mode -- played thuggishly (although with great talent and zeal). The ESPN commentary was -- as always with the "Brothers Grim" -- decidedly anti-Duke.

With all this said, our guys play solid pressure defense, hung tough in a decidedly difficult environment, and demonstrated great poise under stress. Further, we adapted well to VT’s offensive strategy and attempted physical intimidation. In addition, while I general abhor the four-corners delay game, I thought K's shift to that strategy was very wise: (1) reducing VT's effective time to rally; (2) keeping our players from even more severe foul troubles; and (3) creating a more-deliberate offensive environment for VT, in which they did not perform nearly as well.

All told, a good win.

dukegirlinsc
01-24-2008, 08:57 PM
I am not sure if we are the 4th best team in the country or the best team in the ACC, but I sure do love our toughness. Wow.

Why can't Duke be both :D ?

CatfiveCane
01-24-2008, 09:00 PM
Nelson did not get ejected. He got a technical which resulted in him fouling out.

4decadedukie
01-24-2008, 09:01 PM
I skimmed the posts and haven't seen this discussed yet - why was DeMarcus T'd up? Was it something he said, or because he stepped towards Washington?

It MUST be something he said after Washington's clear -- and I believe intentional -- foul; I can imagine no other plausible explanation. This REALLY angered me, since it seems obvious that Washington was purposefully and egregiously fouling throughout the entire game, yet Nelson gets a T.

Dar95
01-24-2008, 09:01 PM
1) Playing VT is not a lot of fun - the chippiness, the physicality, the confrontational attitude... meh. Particularly when they are clearly outmatched, like tongiht. That said, they could be pretty good in a couple of years.

2) I thought this was quite possibly Lance Thomas's best game at Duke. He played within himself, showed great energy, movement, and poise.

3) Fantastic job of executing the milk-the-clock offense.

4) I thought the officiating was pretty good given the situation. Particularly in ignoring Washington's ridiculousness and, for the most part, not getting caught up in the feistyness of the game.

5) It would be better if Paulus and, to a lesser extent, Nelson, cut the crap and just played ball, although it's easy to understand how you could get caught up in all that silliness.

6) Patrick and Elmore weren't as painful as usual.

7) How awesome is it to win an ACC road game with ease? Not going to see a lot of that this year.

sandinmyshoes
01-24-2008, 09:01 PM
I haven't had time to read all the other post game posts, but is it just me, or did that game unfold with an uncanny resemblence to the Miami/UNC game?

CatfiveCane
01-24-2008, 09:03 PM
As I have been in several earlier Duke-ACC games, I was appalled by the officiating (perhaps with bias, but principally to VT's advantage, in my opinion). Washington -- as is his mode -- played thuggishly (although with great talent and zeal). The ESPN commentary was -- as always with the "Brothers Grim" -- decidedly anti-Duke.

With all this said, our guys play solid pressure defense, hung tough in a decidedly difficult environment, and demonstrated great poise under stress. Further, we adapted well to VTís offensive strategy and attempted physical intimidation. In addition, while I general abhor the four-corners delay game, I thought K's shift to that strategy was very wise: (1) reducing VT's effective time to rally; (2) keeping our players from even more severe foul troubles; and (3) creating a more-deliberate offensive environment for VT, in which they did not perform nearly as well.

All told, a good win.


I really didn't see any bias in the refs. They just didn't call a lot of things... both ways. And then they would make a stupid make-up call the next second. But they did this for both teams.

At the end, the refs appeared to try to tighten the game up. Which is silly... since for 30 minutes they let almost anything go.

wisteria
01-24-2008, 09:06 PM
As I have been in several earlier Duke-ACC games, I was appalled by the officiating (perhaps with bias, but principally to VT's advantage, in my opinion). Washington -- as is his mode -- played thuggishly (although with great talent and zeal). The ESPN commentary was -- as always with the "Brothers Grim" -- decidedly anti-Duke.



I don't know about this. I think the ESPN commentary about the officiating was pretty good. I didn't feel much anti-Duke stuff. Maybe I was just not very sensitive. I think they pretty much looked through Washington's acting and pointed out that he was the one to blame. The comment that the refs were going to take Washington out of the game was pretty spot-on, (happened seconds later.)

CatfiveCane
01-24-2008, 09:06 PM
1) Playing VT is not a lot of fun - the chippiness, the physicality, the confrontational attitude... meh. Particularly when they are clearly outmatched, like tongiht. That said, they could be pretty good in a couple of years.

2) I thought this was quite possibly Lance Thomas's best game at Duke. He played within himself, showed great energy, movement, and poise.

3) Fantastic job of executing the milk-the-clock offense.

4) I thought the officiating was pretty good given the situation. Particularly in ignoring Washington's ridiculousness and, for the most part, not getting caught up in the feistyness of the game.

5) It would be better if Paulus and, to a lesser extent, Nelson, cut the crap and just played ball, although it's easy to understand how you could get caught up in all that silliness.

6) Patrick and Elmore weren't as painful as usual.

7) How awesome is it to win an ACC road game with ease? Not going to see a lot of that this year.



2) Lance Thomas did look a lot better tonight. Maybe because he knew theur center was out. Who knows. Eitherway, I notice that Lance Thomas does not play "above the rim". He brings the ball down all the time. Instead of dunking, he tries to lay it up. Weak stuff like that. He needs to take control.

7) for the first 25 minutes or so this was not a easy ACC road win. Weren't we only up by one point in the early second half?

DangerDevil
01-24-2008, 09:06 PM
5) It would be better if Paulus and, to a lesser extent, Nelson, cut the crap and just played ball, although it's easy to understand how you could get caught up in all that silliness.


Could you elaborate on the "crap"?

Bob Green
01-24-2008, 09:08 PM
Washington -- as is his mode -- played thuggishly (although with great talent and zeal).


I agree 100 percent! Deron Washington is a really talented ball player. It is too bad his thuggish attitude is what everyone will remember about him. In the end, all a person has is their reputation - and Deron deserves his bad reputation.

Exiled_Devil
01-24-2008, 09:09 PM
that was a good old fashion ACC game. No holds bar.
.

More like a good old fashioned Big East game - let 'em have six fouls and keep a stretcher on the sideline.


NOt much discussed yet, but we took stall ball and extended a lead. How about them apples?

mapei
01-24-2008, 09:10 PM
I think the ESPN commentary about the officiating was pretty good. I didn't feel much anti-Duke stuff. Maybe I was just not very sensitive. I think they pretty much looked through Washington's acting and pointed out that he was the one to blame. The comment that the refs were going to take Washington out of the game was pretty spot-on, (happened seconds later.)

I completely agree. I thought Elmore in particular was excellent tonight and gave Duke lots of props.

dukegirlinsc
01-24-2008, 09:13 PM
I really didn't see any bias in the refs. They just didn't call a lot of things... both ways. And then they would make a stupid make-up call the next second. But they did this for both teams.

At the end, the refs appeared to try to tighten the game up. Which is silly... since for 30 minutes they let almost anything go.

Agreed, I didn't see much bias, it was pretty horrible both ways...just ended up working out better for Duke.

Bob Green
01-24-2008, 09:13 PM
I don't know about this. I think the ESPN commentary about the officiating was pretty good. I didn't feel much anti-Duke stuff. Maybe I was just not very sensitive. I think they pretty much looked through Washington's acting and pointed out that he was the one to blame. The comment that the refs were going to take Washington out of the game was pretty spot-on, (happened seconds later.)


I completely agree. I thought Elmore in particular was excellent tonight and gave Duke lots of props.

Count me as another Duke fan who doesn't understand the Elmore hating that is present on DBR. He makes positive Duke comments all the time.

dukestheheat
01-24-2008, 09:14 PM
wisteria,

i agree on thomas' emergence and surely, he's slowly coming along. he's starting to generally anticipate better, in my opinion. this mental decision has him much more focused to contribute both on defense and offense, and we are seeing it. very nice contribution and i sure hope he can take that 6 points tonight and turn that into 12 points per game for Duke. That'd help us totally down low and take a lot of pressure off of Iron Man Singler.

dth.

wisteria
01-24-2008, 09:15 PM
Agreed, I didn't see much bias, it was pretty horrible both ways...just ended up working out better for Duke.

I feel for the refs though... Very difficult job tonight.

dukestheheat
01-24-2008, 09:18 PM
Washington-

man, what a punk. he did, however, get into markie's head and an earlier poster noted that going forward, markie is going to have to keep his composure and i couldn't agree more about that. he's the captain, our leader, and for him to foul out is fool's gold.

we desperately need markie out there and he knows it.

i am sure there were words about this after the game, coach to markie.

dth.

Indoor66
01-24-2008, 09:19 PM
Why can't Duke be both :D ?

'Cause were 3 & the best! :) :D

DukeDevilDeb
01-24-2008, 09:19 PM
As I have been in several earlier Duke-ACC games, I was appalled by the officiating (perhaps with bias, but principally to VT's advantage, in my opinion). Washington -- as is his mode -- played thuggishly (although with great talent and zeal). The ESPN commentary was -- as always with the "Brothers Grim" -- decidedly anti-Duke.

With all this said, our guys play solid pressure defense, hung tough in a decidedly difficult environment, and demonstrated great poise under stress. Further, we adapted well to VTís offensive strategy and attempted physical intimidation. In addition, while I general abhor the four-corners delay game, I thought K's shift to that strategy was very wise: (1) reducing VT's effective time to rally; (2) keeping our players from even more severe foul troubles; and (3) creating a more-deliberate offensive environment for VT, in which they did not perform nearly as well.

All told, a good win.

I agree with all the positives in your post, but I don't agree with the comment about the ESPN commentary. I often mute the TV and listen to Bob Harris, but I didn't tonight. Although Mike Patrick and Len Elmore will not be mistakenly identified as Duke fans;) , I thought they did a reasonable job. They certainly called Deron Washington out for his truly ridiculous performance, and they kept saying that the Devils were tough and played well.

Do we really want another Dickie V or someone who does nothing but cheer for Duke as s/he announces...? I don't think so.

pfrduke
01-24-2008, 09:19 PM
Something he said. Rediculous. Considering all the chippy stuff Washington had done all game, the REFS should have said something to him about it. Nelson did and got ejected. Pretty pathetic, really. Those Refs are just really, really bad. It is by FAR the worst group I have seen... over and over (really, every time I am at a game and see that group, I know I am going home horse).

Here's what I loved about that officiating crew... when Nelson got whistled for the tech, the camera was on the Duke huddle, and didn't show the referee. I said to myself, "Karl Hess must have whistled him for a technical foul." And then they show the replay, and it was Hess on the quick whistle. And I chuckled.

Seriously though, Karl Hess has one of the shortest fuse of all referees, and is quick on the T - he was responsible for some of the ridiculous ones called on Ewing a few years ago. Not saying this one wasn't necessarily justified by what Nelson said, since I obviously have no idea what Nelson said. But with Hess on the whistle, it could have been anything.

Devilsfan
01-24-2008, 09:20 PM
Forget the talent, a thugs a thug. I am glad our captain stood up to him.
What a great choice Coach K made by appointing him the sole captain.
We have real men on our team. I wish we could play Pitt again.

Dar95
01-24-2008, 09:20 PM
Could you elaborate on the "crap"?

Paulus was engaging in the same stuff as Washington and some of the other VT guys - in particular, a couple of after-the-whistle mild shoves, plus "accidentally" backing into Washington when he was about to shoot free throws. Nelson got caught up in the back-and-forth, leading to the time he tried to dunk on 3 VT players (getting blocked), and eventually his T.

pfrduke
01-24-2008, 09:21 PM
I agree with all the positives in your post, but I don't agree with the comment about the ESPN commentary. I often mute the TV and listen to Bob Harris, but I didn't tonight. Although Mike Patrick and Len Elmore will not be mistakenly identified as Duke fans;) , I thought they did a reasonable job. They certainly called Deron Washington out for his truly ridiculous performance, and they kept saying that the Devils were tough and played well.

Do we really want another Dickie V or someone who does nothing but cheer for Duke as s/he announces...? I don't think so.

The commentary was certainly fair tonight. Although if you played a drinking game where you took a drink every time Mike Patrick misidentified a player, you'd be hospitalized for alcohol poisoning before the game was over.

devildeac
01-24-2008, 09:24 PM
I skimmed the posts and haven't seen this discussed yet - why was DeMarcus T'd up? Was it something he said, or because he stepped towards Washington?

it looked like Markie woofed at washingthug after he tried to decapitate him to prevent a dunk. classless vt antics

Methodistman
01-24-2008, 09:26 PM
Folks, I love the idea that everyone that entered the game for us hit at least 2 field goals (I had begun to have a bad habit of telling my 2 sons that every time LT shots would be a miss). I love the fact that we had 81 points spread between 9 players (even my 3rd grade son could tell me that was 9 per player). That is called "balance." Haven't seen this kind of balance in a while. It's special . . . :)

heath_harshman4
01-24-2008, 09:30 PM
Paulus was engaging in the same stuff as Washington and some of the other VT guys - in particular, a couple of after-the-whistle mild shoves, plus "accidentally" backing into Washington when he was about to shoot free throws. Nelson got caught up in the back-and-forth, leading to the time he tried to dunk on 3 VT players (getting blocked), and eventually his T.


I think you have that confused with the time he was trying to dunk on an open lane and got clothes-lined from the side, and was tired of him and his team gettin cheap-shots all night and finally said soemthing, leading to his T.

Uncle Drew
01-24-2008, 09:32 PM
Lance is making strides out there. Anyone agrees?

A messy game that I don't know how to comment on. But we were tough, and we kept our poise in such hostile environment. Our guys showed great great maturity compared to last year.

I thought this was one of Lance's best games all around in a Duke uniform. While on offense his finishing touch still needs some work at times, his movement is looking 1000 X more fluid than he did last year. I really thought while watching this game, by seasons end he might be the aggresive, athletic power forward Duke needs and has come to expect. The guy is making strides and I for one applaud him. With Zoubek out and probably out of game shape we will need his all around play around the basket sooner or later.

devildeac
01-24-2008, 09:32 PM
Something he said. Rediculous. Considering all the chippy stuff Washington had done all game, the REFS should have said something to him about it. Nelson did and got ejected. Pretty pathetic, really. Those Refs are just really, really bad. It is by FAR the worst group I have seen... over and over (really, every time I am at a game and see that group, I know I am going home horse).

did Markie get ejected or was the T just his 5th foul? if he was ejected after all the dirty crap that washingthug tried and accomplished, that reffing crew really may have been the sorriest i have ever seen(ooh, 2 of the same ones who ejected GH for 'fighting' vs unc last season...)

mgtr
01-24-2008, 09:35 PM
First, I think that the Pitt game was the most valuable game we played this year. We learned that if we don't play hard and tough, we could lose. Second, I was happy to see that we could be beat upon, toughed out, and still respond in a positive way. Washington's game is to try to get you to go after him. We mostly resiisted, and played our own game. We won by ignoring his antics. I was very proud of our effort tongiht.

Jarhead
01-24-2008, 09:41 PM
They showed his Dad a few times when he missed a freebie. His Dad will take him to the wood shed.

Troublemaker
01-24-2008, 09:43 PM
I'm surprised to see people defending the announcers. I thought Elmore treated us to some of the most obnoxious commentary I've heard this season, and I'm not one to usually complain about the announcers; for example, I heart Jay Bilas just the way he is. Elmore's constant subtle suggestions that Duke was getting the calls and constant defenses of calls that favored VT (things like, "yep, good call, an elbow by Thomas", "that [mugging] wasn't intentional by Washington", "good non-call on the goaltend for Paulus' shot because it was OBVIOUSLY going to fall short... no really, it was OBVIOUS") really rankled me.

feldspar
01-24-2008, 09:50 PM
Could you elaborate on the "crap"?

In the first half of the first half, Washington "walked through" Greg (didn't push, didn't shove, just walked through him), and Greg gave him a healthy elbow for no reason other than to be punkish.

I certainly think Washington showed his true colors tonight, but Duke didn't do the best job of rising above all the crap going on.

**********************

Anyway, as far as the rest of the game, a really gutty win for our guys and, has been said, it's hard to point out one single person who was behind this one. Everyone stayed mentally in it (for the most part) and didn't allow Virginia Tech to muscle their way to a win.

Washington is a textbook dirty player. I bristle at using that definition usually, but if the shoe fits...

It disturbs me to see a coach like Seth Greenberg allow a player like that out on the court on a regular basis. There's no excuse for his repeated dirty play, but for whatever reason, Greenberg has no desire to hold him accountable.

As far as the officiating goes, I will just say that anyone who has any experience in blowing the whistle knows that this is, hands down, the hardest type of game to officiate. Two teams who are determined to pound and pound and pound eachother until one team breaks...and the officials' job is to, first and foremost, keep players safe, and second, make sure the game is fair. I tip my hat to this officiating crew for doing a good job of making sure this one didn't turn into a junkyard brawl. In this type of game, it's extremely difficult to stay consistent with every single calls, and I think the crew did an excellent job considering the circumstances.

As far as Karl Hess goes, I've never understood the irrational beating he takes on this board because he's called several technicals on our guys and our Coach over the years. Only a few players and maybe a few fans are privy to what gets said on the court 95% of the time and I will tell you that officials are pretty consistent with how the dole out technical fouls for mouthing off. DeMarcus knew better, and whether it was Karl Hess or not, I wasn't surprised that he got T'ed up. In fact, if I were him, I would've considered it "worth it," the way the game was going and considering that we were in complete control at that point.

That being said, there were definitely several misses tonight by the officiating crew, the goaltending "no-call" in the second half being the most glaring error. Every angle I saw, the ball looked like it would have at least hit the rim, if not gone in. I'm still scratching my head, though, at what the officials were doing checking the courtside monitor after that play, as TV review is not allowed for checking goaltending. Oh well.

As I said, good, gutty win for our guys. We were supposed to win this game, but the way we won it is definitely another notch in our belt.

Go Duke.

Troublemaker
01-24-2008, 09:50 PM
Anyhow, besides Elmore being an idiot, my impression was that Duke played really well. Even in the first half, I thought Duke played well -- moved the ball excellent, a bit shaky on defense -- but VT hustled their butts off and played over their heads offensively to keep it in close. In the second half, VT came back down to earth, and Duke pulled away as they should have against an opponent that didn't really match up well. Singler got my MOTM vote for his second-half burst that gave Duke a working margin, which Duke then worked to extend slowly.

feldspar
01-24-2008, 09:52 PM
did Markie get ejected or was the T just his 5th foul?

5th foul

Methodistman
01-24-2008, 09:52 PM
I think you have that confused with the time he was trying to dunk on an open lane and got clothes-lined from the side, and was tired of him and his team gettin cheap-shots all night and finally said soemthing, leading to his T.

Final Fours: 14
National Championships:3
Number of UNC fans pissed off: 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
???

Please don't give unc that much credit for having more fans than actual people on the earth

grossbus
01-24-2008, 09:52 PM
heart check #1: we passed (high marks in fact)

heart check #2 on sunday.

camcraz25
01-24-2008, 09:57 PM
What was the cheer that the students were saying about Paulus? I couldn't make out the first part, but it was like "Bla - Bla- Paul-us" clap clap clap clap clap. Anyone know??

feldspar
01-24-2008, 10:04 PM
What was the cheer that the students were saying about Paulus? I couldn't make out the first part, but it was like "Bla - Bla- Paul-us" clap clap clap clap clap. Anyone know??

I'm pretty sure it was "Tea Bag Paulus," but I can't be 100% sure.

The1Bluedevil
01-24-2008, 10:07 PM
I like how Duke is proving they can win and win on the road when they shoot poorly from 3

Madrasdukie
01-24-2008, 10:10 PM
Nelson did and got ejected. .

Markie wasn't technically "ejected". I agree with your point though.

OZ
01-24-2008, 10:12 PM
Washington-

man, what a punk. he did, however, get into markie's head and an earlier poster noted that going forward, markie is going to have to keep his composure and i couldn't agree more about that. he's the captain, our leader, and for him to foul out is fool's gold.

we desperately need markie out there and he knows it.

i am sure there were words about this after the game, coach to markie.

dth.


I don't think we are giving Nelson enough credit. It had been a rough game and he had received and given. He knew the amount of time left and the score. The game was over, so he had the last "words" and took a seat. My guess is, this would not have happened if the score had been closer.
My two cents...

feldspar
01-24-2008, 10:13 PM
Something he said. Rediculous. Considering all the chippy stuff Washington had done all game, the REFS should have said something to him about it. Nelson did and got ejected. Pretty pathetic, really. Those Refs are just really, really bad. It is by FAR the worst group I have seen... over and over (really, every time I am at a game and see that group, I know I am going home horse).

It's not the DeMarcus' job to talk to Deron Washington about his dirty play. I'm not sure what part of that concept you don't understand. If DeMarcus chooses to do it anyway, and does it in an unsportsmanlike manner, it's the officials' job to penalize it.

And, for the umpteenth time for anyone who has not bothered to read the whole thread, Nelson was NOT ejected. The "T" was his fifth foul, so he was disqualified.

DangerDevil
01-24-2008, 10:14 PM
In the first half of the first half, Washington "walked through" Greg (didn't push, didn't shove, just walked through him), and Greg gave him a healthy elbow for no reason other than to be punkish.

I certainly think Washington showed his true colors tonight, but Duke didn't do the best job of rising above all the crap going on.


They just showed the replay of the above incident, Washington not only "walked" through Paulus which he had no business doing but raised his forearm into Greg's chest. Greg held his ground and knocked Washington's forearm down. I view this incident as yet againg Greg taking more than his far share of abuse and not backing down and I like it.

Additionally Karl Ravech and Fran Frascilla pointed out the numerous instances of "thuggery" that Washington committed and were very complimentary of Duke.

feldspar
01-24-2008, 10:15 PM
I don't think we are giving Nelson enough credit. It had been a rough game and he had received and given. He knew the amount of time left and the score. The game was over, so he had the last "words" and took a seat. My guess is, this would not have happened if the score had been closer.
My two cents...

Perhaps we could make this judgment call if we knew exactly what it was that D-Marc said that got him whacked. But we don't, so it's pretty hard to make that determination. There are just some things you don't say on the court, especially during the course of a heated game, that will get you automatically whacked.

OZ
01-24-2008, 10:15 PM
The commentary was certainly fair tonight. Although if you played a drinking game where you took a drink every time Mike Patrick misidentified a player, you'd be hospitalized for alcohol poisoning before the game was over.



Thanks... you made me laugh...

jipops
01-24-2008, 10:15 PM
I like how Duke is proving they can win and win on the road when they shoot poorly from 3

8-23 from 3 as a team actually isn't too bad. One more of those goes in and you're just about at 40%.

Truly a solid effort from every player who stepped on the floor tonight. Honestly, it did help that VT's leading rebounder Allen was in street clothes. That probably would have made the game even tighter, but then again we didn't have our biggest body in Zoubs out there either. We got terrific play from our frontcourt tonight. McClure had a great defensive sequence at the end of the 1st half and Lance was very active and disruptive.

An ACC road win is always a good win, especially against a team we have so much trouble beating as of late.

feldspar
01-24-2008, 10:16 PM
Additionally Karl Ravech and Fran Frascilla pointed out the numerous instances of "thuggery" that Washington committed and were very complimentary of Duke.

I've always thought Ravech is one of the better desk guys ESPN's got.

DangerDevil
01-24-2008, 10:17 PM
It's not the DeMarcus' job to talk to Deron Washington about his dirty play. I'm not sure what part of that concept you don't understand. If DeMarcus chooses to do it anyway, and does it in an unsportsmanlike manner, it's the officials' job to penalize it.


I have no problem with what Nelson did.

I do have a problem with the refs letting things get as physical/chippy/dirty by one player (Washington) that another player feels like he has to defend himself (Nelson) and teammates.

feldspar
01-24-2008, 10:25 PM
I have no problem with what Nelson did.

I do have a problem with the refs letting things get as physical/chippy/dirty by one player (Washington) that another player feels like he has to defend himself (Nelson) and teammates.

Washington is a dirty player because he knows how to walk the fine line between legal play and illegal play enough to get under other players' skin.

You have to understand how difficult it is for officials to manage a player who walks this fine line. You can't penalize play that is not technically illegal, but just seems dirty. You just can't. I'm sorry if that frustrates you but officials have certain rules they administer. They don't have the discretion to step outside those rules.

As I said, the fact that this game didn't turn into an all out bloodbath is owed in large part to the officiating crew.

I actually feel the exact opposite way that you do, in fact. The intentional foul call on Washington surprised me when I looked at the replay because I didn't see any intent to do anything except flail his body around like a ragdoll to try and get some attention. But the officials decided to "nip it in the bud" as it were, and to me, that was the turning point in the game.

3rd Dukie
01-24-2008, 10:27 PM
It's not the DeMarcus' job to talk to Deron Washington about his dirty play. I'm not sure what part of that concept you don't understand. If DeMarcus chooses to do it anyway, and does it in an unsportsmanlike manner, it's the officials' job to penalize it.

And, for the umpteenth time for anyone who has not bothered to read the whole thread, Nelson was NOT ejected. The "T" was his fifth foul, so he was disqualified.

Demarcus is the captain. He acted like it and stood up to the punk. Good job, DeMar! We can't stand around and get punked without responding all the time. I think he knew exactly what he was doing, and I, for one, was happy to see it.

I thought LT was VERY good tonight. Keep it going, Bud.

heath_harshman4
01-24-2008, 10:30 PM
I'm pretty sure it was "Tea Bag Paulus," but I can't be 100% sure.

yea from the dunk from last year

heath_harshman4
01-24-2008, 10:31 PM
Final Fours: 14
National Championships:3
Number of UNC fans pissed off: 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
???

Please don't give unc that much credit for having more fans than actual people on the earth

wow, can't find anything wrong with my post, so you try and pick at my sig...nice.

k hold on, let me go count the UNC fans...

Lavabe
01-24-2008, 10:32 PM
I'm pretty sure it was "Tea Bag Paulus," but I can't be 100% sure.

I only caught the last 13 minutes of the game. What was the deal with all the booing whenever Paulus touched the ball? Kind of lame, eh?

Give credit to the Duke Princesses. Nice sign. I hope they escaped the arena unscathed.

Cheers,
Lavabe

feldspar
01-24-2008, 10:33 PM
We can't stand around and get punked without responding all the time.

Why not? Why do we have to stoop to other teams' levels?

DangerDevil
01-24-2008, 10:34 PM
Washington is a dirty player because he knows how to walk the fine line between legal play and illegal play enough to get under other players' skin.

I actually feel the exact opposite way that you do, in fact. The intentional foul call on Washington surprised me when I looked at the replay because I didn't see any intent to do anything except flail his body around like a ragdoll to try and get some attention. But the officials decided to "nip it in the bud" as it were, and to me, that was the turning point in the game.

I agree with you that the intentional foul call on Washington wasn't all that much of a foul. I think that the refs had had enough of his antics and thought that he was out of control. That being said even after that call, like several other calls against him earlier in the game he continued to act demonstravtive/show up the refs. Probably didn't warrant a T, but I think at a minimum the Refs should have explained that they were trying to "nip things in the bud" and he needed to tone down his act both during play and after the whistle.

gep
01-24-2008, 10:35 PM
I have no problem with what Nelson did.

I do have a problem with the refs letting things get as physical/chippy/dirty by one player (Washington) that another player feels like he has to defend himself (Nelson) and teammates.

And... what Nelson did... to get the T... maybe that's exactly what a captain should be doing (once in a while or course, and controlled over the course of a season and career) to defend his team. Kinda like when a coach gets a T to show that he's not letting his team get treated unfairly.

In another thread, much was said that Nelson is basically a shy guy, and not one to talk. So for someone or some people to raise his irritation to the level that he actually says "something", I would guess that the situation (game, in this case) was really bad. (my 2 cents)

heath_harshman4
01-24-2008, 10:38 PM
Why not? Why do we have to stoop to other teams' levels?


Pride?

Plus, If you are known as a soft team, other teams, not just the FSU's and VT's of the world are gonna push you around and get away with it. And really, who likes that?

southgater
01-24-2008, 10:39 PM
I agree with the logic that turning to the stall ball was to protect the lead and the players with foul problems and then later to get is some practice with it for later in the season. However, I also wonder if K didn't turn to it to try to slow down the game and cool off the tempers to limit the dirty plays and the chance of someone getting injured.

feldspar
01-24-2008, 10:42 PM
Pride?

Plus, If you are known as a soft team, other teams, not just the FSU's and VT's of the world are gonna push you around and get away with it. And really, who likes that?

Not a bad point.

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate on this issue. As I said before, I don't have a huge problem with the "T." Sometimes, you gotta do what you gotta do.

3rd Dukie
01-24-2008, 10:44 PM
Why not? Why do we have to stoop to other teams' levels?

Sometimes being preemptive, which we were not in my view, stops things from going further. Punks are bullies and as such, will go as far as you let them. DeMar did not "stoop to their level": he fought fire with fire. Is that so outrageous to you? You often seem to apologize for the other team, especially if it can be at the expense of Paulus. Give it a rest. Neither is Paulus an instigator. He's a competitor. Maybe you were disappointed at not getting to see him lying on the floor kicking like a girl. Was that your post also? Sounds like it may have been.

Uncle Drew
01-24-2008, 10:48 PM
Perhaps we could make this judgment call if we knew exactly what it was that D-Marc said that got him whacked. But we don't, so it's pretty hard to make that determination. There are just some things you don't say on the court, especially during the course of a heated game, that will get you automatically whacked.

Feld, I'm here to tell you players talk smack all the time. Even Duke players for those who don't believe. I've heard things in games and attending games that would get you shot said off a court. (JJ heard so much smack talked to him he could write his own book!) It's part of the game that can get ugly and the more a player knows about you the more fuel they can try to use. Duke has always and probably will be used to hearing it and hopefully rising above it. But one of the most famous anti-Duke incidents in history was the result of a player talking smack. When Laettner scored and was fouled before his now infamous chest tap in the 92 UK game, the player on the floor called him a derogatory term for homosexual. Laettner heard it, it ticked him off and he lost his cool for half a second. (Back then a rumor got started that Laettner was gay, and the UK player used it to his advantage.)


The NBA is far worse than high school or college because the players lives are so much more publicized. But quite a few brawls were started by one player saying something about another players wife / child / mother etc. ESPN and other networks have long thought of putting microphones on players in all types of sporting events and sometimes do. But truth be told the players don't like being censored and what is said most of the time would make a sailor blush.

2001dukechamps
01-24-2008, 11:22 PM
Another solid game for Nolan. Just imagine him making the leap Gerald did from his frosh to soph. IMO This Kid has All-American potential.

pete
01-24-2008, 11:28 PM
First off it was a hard fought game and they obviously tried to get under our skin. Just afew thoughts:

Jon- steady as usual got called for some questionable fouls. I wish he would attack the basket more create contact and get to the line where he is stellar.

Nolan - played well continues to improve at the point and his defense is superior.

Greg - was impressive, steady, composed, exactly what we need from an upperclassmen. He created contact on two three point shots got jipped on the second call by the refs solid game for Greg. I'm sure the battle for the starting pg between Greg and Nolan brings out the best in both of them.

Kyle - Battled, Battled, Battled, the punk (Washington) and won. Cool behind the back dish to Markie. I inadvertently gave my Man of the Match vote to Markie. I actually felt Kyle was Man of the Match and played all-around great game especially for a freshman.

Markie - Good all around game. Finally showed some anger which is good to see from our captain and at the point he fouled out he had played 31 minutes so he got torest a little bet. He's been clocking in 37 minutes a game. JJ did that for two straight years but didn't draw the toughest defensive assignment avery game. We need to keep him fresh so a ++ for the emotion and for the extra rest which came as a result. He needs to make more free throws at least 70% if not it may come back to bite us in March.

Lance- His best game of the year he played with passion

Taylor - Bombs away!! from any distance he is money.

Gerald - Good Game. He just like Markie has got to make his free throws for crying out loud he's gonna give pops a heart attack in the stands. Gerald and Markie slash, drive, create contact, and then I hold my breath and turn my head from the TV and hope at least one goes in.

SeattleIrish
01-24-2008, 11:29 PM
Another solid game for Nolan. Just imagine him making the leap Gerald did from his frosh to soph. IMO This Kid has All-American potential.

If he can develop a consistent shot from 3 this summer, he'll be an All-ACC player, IMO.

s.i.

CatfiveCane
01-25-2008, 12:08 AM
no reason why he can't be the starting PG this Year

Methodistman
01-25-2008, 01:59 AM
wow, can't find anything wrong with my post, so you try and pick at my sig...nice.

k hold on, let me go count the UNC fans...

Seriously - had nothing wrong with your post - you just have everything wrong with giving unc that many fans in your sig. GTH, Carolina, GTH!

kdevilsk212
01-25-2008, 02:42 AM
The commentary was certainly fair tonight. Although if you played a drinking game where you took a drink every time Mike Patrick misidentified a player, you'd be hospitalized for alcohol poisoning before the game was over.

So true. I don't mind Elmore. But Mike Patrick kills me. The typical Mike Patrick call (and there's no less than 6 of these for every game he calls) goes something like this:

<Kyle Singler flies out of bounds and smacks his chin open>

Mike Patrick: You've just got to love DeMarcus Nelson's hustle there.
Len: Actually, I think that's Kyle Singler.
Mike: You're right Len, it is. Oh, and it looks like he's come up limping. The Blue Devil faithful won't like that.
Len: Actually, I think he's cut his chin.
Mike: And a foul on Singler.
Len: Actually, it's just an official time out to clean up the blood.
Mike: Blood on the floor in Lexington.
Len: We're in Durham.
Mike: Indeed. The capital city Len. Right you are...

Oriole Way
01-25-2008, 02:53 AM
So true. I don't mind Elmore. But Mike Patrick kills me. The typical Mike Patrick call (and there's no less than 6 of these for every game he calls) goes something like this:

<Kyle Singler flies out of bounds and smacks his chin open>

Mike Patrick: You've just got to love DeMarcus Nelson's hustle there.
Len: Actually, I think that's Kyle Singler.
Mike: You're right Len, it is. Oh, and it looks like he's come up limping. The Blue Devil faithful won't like that.
Len: Actually, I think he's cut his chin.
Mike: And a foul on Singler.
Len: Actually, it's just an official time out to clean up the blood.
Mike: Blood on the floor in Lexington.
Len: We're in Durham.
Mike: Indeed. The capital city Len. Right you are...

Ha, well done.

I legitimately think that Mike Patrick might be going senile.

Lulu
01-25-2008, 04:17 AM
regarding nelson's T, my biggest problem is that the person pleased the most was washington. you just gotta ignore it, that's best. doesn't matter that the game was in the bag. sure isn't going to deter his behavior later.

anyone else read gerald sr's lips during those free throw displays??? we had to laugh a bit. the woodshed indeed.

dukemomLA
01-25-2008, 04:45 AM
From the opening minutes, I knew these officials had no handle on this game. The players (on both sides) had NO idea how this game would be called. And of course, it just grew from bad to worse!!

Both teams played hard. Both teams were confused. (Which doesn't EVER excuse the thug/underhanded play/disgusting crap from DW of VT). And let's lay the blame on SethG. ENOUGH!!

I was thrilled that our Duke guys held their own and also kept their cool. Amazing under the circumstances. KUDOS!! This is a special team, and I love every game they play.

Am hoping (...but not expecting) that Deron W will be given a suspension as should be the case. But whatever -- Looking forward to someone else in the ACC getting fed enough with his antics, dirty play and crap to 'take him out.'

That being said, ....again, I LOVE this team!! Can't wait for Sunday's game.

Uncle Drew
01-25-2008, 07:35 AM
From the opening minutes, I knew these officials had no handle on this game. The players (on both sides) had NO idea how this game would be called. And of course, it just grew from bad to worse!!

Both teams played hard. Both teams were confused. (Which doesn't EVER excuse the thug/underhanded play/disgusting crap from DW of VT). And let's lay the blame on SethG. ENOUGH!!

I was thrilled that our Duke guys held their own and also kept their cool. Amazing under the circumstances. KUDOS!! This is a special team, and I love every game they play.

Am hoping (...but not expecting) that Deron W will be given a suspension as should be the case. But whatever -- Looking forward to someone else in the ACC getting fed enough with his antics, dirty play and crap to 'take him out.'

That being said, ....again, I LOVE this team!! Can't wait for Sunday's game.


Thank you. If Duke gets this kind of overly physical play and thuggery every time they play VT the only logical conclusion is the directive to play that way is coming from their coach. There is a big difference in physical play and trying to incite a fight. VT, Washington in particular was trying to get a reaction from every Duke player he came in contact with. The closest thing I can compare it to would be Dennis Rodman in his days with the Bulls. Thankfully no cameramen were hurt in the production of the broadcast, Washington kept his shirt on and Carmen Electra is still searching for her next ex husband. :rolleyes:

gw67
01-25-2008, 07:39 AM
Based on last nightís game and a speed read of this morningís numerous posts, I figure that a substantial number of Throatyís DBR Pocket Reference comments could have been listed at the beginning of a couple of the threads.

Other than Washington, I didnít think that the rest of the Tech players were particularly dirty. It was very physical and the refs did not make consistent calls which led to an ugly game. I like that Nelson, Paulus, Henderson and Singler donít back down when play gets a little chippy.

I didnít think that anyone on the team played an outstanding game although Kingís three pointers and Singlerís rebounding stood out to me.

The young Tech backcourt had a very difficult time with a load of turnovers. However, I think that Thorns and Dulaney will get better with time and be a strong backcourt in the future.

There are now 7 teams with losing records in league play. That may increase to 8 this weekend.

gw67

yancem
01-25-2008, 07:53 AM
I agree 100 percent! Deron Washington is a really talented ball player. It is too bad his thuggish attitude is what everyone will remember about him. In the end, all a person has is their reputation - and Deron deserves his bad reputation.

I don't know, its going to be really hard to forget some of his tremendous blocks and dunks! He tries to play too many games (not basketball wise) and get into apposing players heads, not to mention his physical play, but the guy is a human highlight reel.

feldspar
01-25-2008, 07:59 AM
From the opening minutes, I knew these officials had no handle on this game. The players (on both sides) had NO idea how this game would be called. And of course, it just grew from bad to worse!!


Please explain, in detail, your problem with the officials that was so egregious, you feel they should be sanctioned or fined.

This is getting ridiculous, people.

whereinthehellami
01-25-2008, 08:01 AM
Based on last nightís game and a speed read of this morningís numerous posts, I figure that a substantial number of Throatyís DBR Pocket Reference comments could have been listed at the beginning of a couple of the threads.

Other than Washington, I didnít think that the rest of the Tech players were particularly dirty. It was very physical and the refs did not make consistent calls which led to an ugly game. I like that Nelson, Paulus, Henderson and Singler donít back down when play gets a little chippy.

I didnít think that anyone on the team played an outstanding game although Kingís three pointers and Singlerís rebounding stood out to me.

The young Tech backcourt had a very difficult time with a load of turnovers. However, I think that Thorns and Dulaney will get better with time and be a strong backcourt in the future.

There are now 7 teams with losing records in league play. That may increase to 8 this weekend.

gw67

I totally agree with this. Tough and dirty are two different things. And playing Duke tough is smart and it works. You're going to see more of it.

gofurman
01-25-2008, 08:04 AM
Probably mentioned elsewhere - sorry if so...

- Lance did very well I thought! 5 points / 6 boards in 18 minutes - That is great! Granted VTech is smallish inside without Allen but still that is on the road in a very hostile environment

- Duke is playing more depth than I have seen in a while...I like it! Some people said K was going back to his old ways of a 7 man rotation but lately I have seen 8/9 players get 10+ minutes. I hope it continues

BlueDevilBaby
01-25-2008, 08:16 AM
The commentary was certainly fair tonight. Although if you played a drinking game where you took a drink every time Mike Patrick misidentified a player, you'd be hospitalized for alcohol poisoning before the game was over.

Not to mention I swear he said "Ron Paulus" at the beginning of the game. If he's on campus, can he suit up as QB?;) . They also gave Singler an assist by Jon and couldn't even correct their mistake when they showed a replay. Sheesh!

CDu
01-25-2008, 08:18 AM
Tough, gritty win for us last night. I have nothing nice to say about Va Tech, except that they may have some solid guards for the future in Delaney and Thorns. Actually, most of my ill-will towards Va Tech is directed at Washington (who has long been on my least-favorite player list) for being a punk and for playing so dirty/chippy and Greenberg for allowing that sort of behavior.

But, rather than focus on the bad from Va Tech, let's focus on the good.

- It was nice to see Thomas be aggressive and assert himself. He was talking to teammates throughout, showed toughness, was calling out directions on defense in transition (got Taylor King to save what would have been a Washington dunk at one point), and even produced a nice statline for him.
- Singler really stepped up in the second half. He's a tough kid, so it's not surprising to me that he came up big in the second half
- King hit some monster threes and established himself on the road in a hostile environment.
- Smith again looked very solid, and handled a lot of ballhandling responsibilities down the stretch
- Paulus did a good job of avoiding mental mistakes (0 turnovers) and getting caught up entirely in the Washington drama
- The defense did a great job of limiting the only two weapons for Va Tech (Vassallo and Washington). They held them to 9-25 shooting and 9 turnovers.

It was an ugly game. Va Tech tried their hardest to make it an ugly game, and they succeeded in that regard. It was nice to see us assert our will in the second half and put them away.

Uncle Drew
01-25-2008, 08:18 AM
Please explain, in detail, your problem with the officials that was so egregious, you feel they should be sanctioned or fined.

This is getting ridiculous, people.

I'll let LA answer for LA. And I don't think the refs should be fined or suspended. But in any game the calls should be consistent. Even the commentators (Yeah I know using them as a source is NOT a good example!) made a comment after a hand check foul about the inconsistency. 90% of the game it was physical and the refs were letting them play. I personally prefer the game to be called a little closer but they were letting players play on both ends. In my opinion part of the VT game plan was to be physical and "punk" Duke if possible. When the game got really "chippy" and overly physical the refs then tried to reel things in a bit (IMO) by calling things closer. But by the time things get to the point of players (Nelson) getting T'd up for something verbal it's usually a sign the refs let things slide too far. After that point the refs were calling fouls in a more normal fashion, perhaps even too close. Washington's last foul wouldn't have bothered to make the refs inhale at the start of the game yet alone actually blow the whistle. Players try to get used to how refs are calling a game in the first three or four minutes and adapt from there. While you aren't going to get every call going your way, if you get consistency from the refs it's pretty much fair on both sides and players have to play on.

feldspar
01-25-2008, 08:32 AM
Even the commentators (Yeah I know using them as a source is NOT a good example!) made a comment after a hand check foul about the inconsistency.

You're correct. Using the commentators as pillars of knowledge really weakens your argument.


90% of the game it was physical and the refs were letting them play. I personally prefer the game to be called a little closer but they were letting players play on both ends.

Come on. There were 24 fouls in the first HALF. You call that letting them play???

I completely disagree with your assessment, and I believe the numbers back me up. As I said earlier, as physical as this game was, it was called as well as it probably could have been called. If you call every single foul in a game like this, you're not going to have a game. You're going to have a free throw contest. And still, they called a lot of fouls.

The second half wasn't much different. 25 total fouls called. That's a lot of fouls, folk.


In my opinion part of the VT game plan was to be physical and "punk" Duke if possible. When the game got really "chippy" and overly physical the refs then tried to reel things in a bit (IMO) by calling things closer. But by the time things get to the point of players (Nelson) getting T'd up for something verbal it's usually a sign the refs let things slide too far.

Oh please. Blaming the officiating for DeMarcus letting Deron get under his skin is despicable and there's no excuse for it.


After that point the refs were calling fouls in a more normal fashion, perhaps even too close. Washington's last foul wouldn't have bothered to make the refs inhale at the start of the game yet alone actually blow the whistle. Players try to get used to how refs are calling a game in the first three or four minutes and adapt from there. While you aren't going to get every call going your way, if you get consistency from the refs it's pretty much fair on both sides and players have to play on.

You're literally just making things up now. The officials called a fairly consistent game throughout, ESPECIALLY at the beginning of the game. Every little tick or tack got called in the first ten minutes, beginning in the first 10 seconds with G's offensive foul.

If you're going to make up stuff like this, at least back it up with facts.

CDu
01-25-2008, 08:33 AM
I'll let LA answer for LA. And I don't think the refs should be fined or suspended. But in any game the calls should be consistent. Even the commentators (Yeah I know using them as a source is NOT a good example!) made a comment after a hand check foul about the inconsistency. 90% of the game it was physical and the refs were letting them play. I personally prefer the game to be called a little closer but they were letting players play on both ends. In my opinion part of the VT game plan was to be physical and "punk" Duke if possible. When the game got really "chippy" and overly physical the refs then tried to reel things in a bit (IMO) by calling things closer. But by the time things get to the point of players (Nelson) getting T'd up for something verbal it's usually a sign the refs let things slide too far. After that point the refs were calling fouls in a more normal fashion, perhaps even too close. Washington's last foul wouldn't have bothered to make the refs inhale at the start of the game yet alone actually blow the whistle. Players try to get used to how refs are calling a game in the first three or four minutes and adapt from there. While you aren't going to get every call going your way, if you get consistency from the refs it's pretty much fair on both sides and players have to play on.

I don't know that I'd say they were "letting them play." There were 49 fouls called in the game (25 against Duke, 24 against Va Tech). In both halves, both teams were in the bonus with at least 8 minutes to go. In fact, in the first half, the Hokies were in the bonus with over 10 minutes left. That's a lot of foul calls.

77devil
01-25-2008, 08:37 AM
There is a lot to like about the box score. I didn't get a chance to look at the it until this morning and much has already been written about the balance scoring, team play, and the missed free throws. The excellent assist to TO ratio for Greg, Demarc, and Nolan in such a physical game is noteworthy. In addition, the rebounds were well distributed. The team understands that everyone needs to be involved on the boards with the relative lack of size up front.

Gerald, however, continues to play very unevenly and last night was no exception with 5 turnovers no assists, and below 50&#37; from the line. The balance on the team manifests itself almost every game such that others pick up the slack when a teammate is having an off night. Hoping for big game from Gerald at College Park.

gw67
01-25-2008, 08:40 AM
I set the bar pretty low for TV announcers because I can always turn the sound off (which I have done to listen to a PBS telecast the past three Wednesdays); however, I will make a comment re Mike Patrick. He lives in Northern Virginia and was a local sportscaster for many years. At that time, he got his facts straight and was very outgoing and enthusiastic. I believe that he did a bunch of basketball games in the mid-atlantic region which eventually led to his current gig with ESPN. He was teamed with Vitale on many telecasts and I suspect that this experience or the onset of senility has affected his performance in recent years. I contrast his typical performance with that of another local sportscaster of that era, Tim Brant, who does both football and basketball. Tim was difficult to listen to when he started announcing games but he has grown in the past few years and is one of my favorites because he gets his facts straight and understands the ACC and its' history.

gw67

wilko
01-25-2008, 08:42 AM
I thought this was one of Lance's best games all around in a Duke uniform. The guy is making strides and I for one applaud him. With Zoubek out and probably out of game shape we will need his all around play around the basket sooner or later.


I can confirm it. We had a Lance Thomas sighting last nite... Im glad I was the only one who noticed. Hopefully he can use this game to build on. Great effort and Play by Lance last nite....

On a side note... anyone have the scoop on Zoubek? Hows he doing.. is he at practice can he move at all on that foot right now? I hope this inj does for us what Whittenburgs Inj did for NCSU a while back... I am hoping that on his return and in the 2nd leg of conf play ... the opposition will be so concerned with breaking the pressure that that wont know how to react to the 7fter and give B a bit of an advantage in not knowing how to prepare for him.

Ever hopeful.

Saratoga2
01-25-2008, 08:50 AM
Another solid game for Nolan. Just imagine him making the leap Gerald did from his frosh to soph. IMO This Kid has All-American potential.

I think he is one of the players on the team with NBA potential

_Gary
01-25-2008, 08:51 AM
Oh please. Blaming the officiating for DeMarcus letting Deron get under his skin is despicable and there's no excuse for it.

Feldspar, did you see the play I (and others) have been mentioning where Washington tried to take the legs out from under Markie after he was already in the air? Had the refs done the right thing and T-ed Washington up right then, I don't believe we would have seen Markie get upset later on after the hard foul delivered by Washington. It's because the officials could NOT get control of the game and, most importantly, keep the players safe from extremely dangerous crap like Washington's attempt to upend DeMarcus that Nelson got upset. I don't blame him one bit. I would imagine he knew the game was in hand and felt he had to stand up for himself at that point, since the refs clearly couldn't get things under control.

Frankly, the refs should have done two things early in the game. Firstly, they should have pulled both coaches together and told them to get the players under control (this would have been more directed at Seth, but say it to both coaches regardless). Secondly, if that didn't clean things up they should have immediately handed out technicals. You can't let players do what Washington did to DeMarcus and get away with it as an official. You are asking for bad results if you do.

Again, I don't blame DeMarcus in that spot. The game was out of reach and he wasn't having any more of that chippy play. I say good for him. Now, as a senior he would have been wrong had he allowed that to get to him when the game was still in question. But I think Markie knows better and he picked his spot after the game was out of reach for VPI.

Gary

feldspar
01-25-2008, 08:57 AM
Feldspar, did you see the play I (and others) have been mentioning where Washington tried to take the legs out from under Markie after he was already in the air? Had the refs done the right thing and T-ed Washington up right then, I don't believe we would have seen Markie get upset later on after the hard foul delivered by Washington.

It didn't warrant a technical. You can swear up and down all day and all night that it did, but it didn't.

_Gary
01-25-2008, 09:00 AM
It didn't warrant a technical. You can swear up and down all day and all night that it did, but it didn't.

Wow! I don't think I've ever disagreed with a post more than that one, Feldspar. To each his own I guess, but I strongly beg to differ with you there. It absolutely warranted a tech specifically because of how Washington had played up to that point. The officials would have been well within their bounds to give him a tech for intent to injure. I've seen far less result in technicals over the years.

Gary

MulletMan
01-25-2008, 09:00 AM
So the officiating last night was terrible, mostly because of the inconsistent nature of the calls, but if we all sit here and say that everything went against Duke, then you'd be sorely mistaken. Both teams suffered because of the officiating mess of that game. Yes Nelson was pissed, and yes the officials probably missed a call on the play referenced above, but they didn't pick him up off the floor and send him over to get into Washington's face. (Which, BTW, I love that he did!).

To wit: how many people acknowledged, during the game, that we got a way with a fould when LT dove for a ball under Washington's legs and took him to the ground. I'm pretty sure that should have been a foul.

CDu
01-25-2008, 09:01 AM
I don't believe it has been mentioned yet, but I have to give kudos to Elmore for one moment of clairvoyance. Shortly after the Nelson technical, Elmore said something to the effect of "now that the game is out of hand and Washington has four fouls, look for the officials to call him for a minor foul to get him out of the game and avoid any further problems." Sure enough, a couple of plays later, Washington reaches in on Singler after a miss and Singler rebound and gets called for his fifth foul. The reach-in was nowhere near the level of some of the stuff being let go and had no effect on the play (Singler still easily corralled the rebound. But was certainly close enough to be called. The official took the opportunity and got Washington off the floor. It was a great decision by the official, and I think it was a pretty good observation by Elmore to point out that possibility ahead of time.

I think this was probably the best game I've seen Elmore call of Duke's games. He fumbled a few plays, but in general he was very unbiased and gave a pretty good account of the action. And he didn't give Washington any quarter for his antics on the court, or blame Duke for what was Washington's one-man attempt at making this a VERY ugly affair.

feldspar
01-25-2008, 09:04 AM
Wow! I don't think I've ever disagreed with a post more than that one, Feldspar. To each his own I guess, but I strongly beg to differ with you there. It absolutely warranted a tech specifically because of how Washington had played up to that point. The officials would have been well within their bounds to give him a tech for intent to injure. I've seen far less result in technicals over the years.

Gary

Sorry, Gary, but you couldn't be more wrong. There was no explicit intent to injure on Washington's fault.

I can possibly see how someone with Duke-colored-glasses on could view it that way, but Washington's move was borderline at best, and you're not going to get a veteran D-1 official to call a technical on that play even if it were. The most you would get there would be an intentional foul and that would even be pushing it.

CDu
01-25-2008, 09:06 AM
So the officiating last night was terrible, mostly because of the inconsistent nature of the calls, but if we all sit here and say that everything went against Duke, then you'd be sorely mistaken. Both teams suffered because of the officiating mess of that game. Yes Nelson was pissed, and yes the officials probably missed a call on the play referenced above, but they didn't pick him up off the floor and send him over to get into Washington's face. (Which, BTW, I love that he did!).

To wit: how many people acknowledged, during the game, that we got a way with a fould when LT dove for a ball under Washington's legs and took him to the ground. I'm pretty sure that should have been a foul.

I don't think the officiating was that awful - I think the style of play made for an impossible task of officiating. Moreover, Va Tech brought it upon themselves by forcing that style of play.

As for the Thomas play - I agree. That was a dangerous move by him to dive under Washington's legs like that. It has always been a pet peeve of mine that whenever there is a loose ball, people are allowed to pile up on a player. Generally, this occurs when one player is already on the ground. In this case, Washington was standing and was completely exposed to a hit from behind. Thomas was lucky not to be called for a foul there.

That said, I think the number of instances in which Duke got away with stuff was much less than the number of instances in which Va Tech did. That was a glaring occurrence, to be sure, but it wasn't like Duke got away with a lot of those.

feldspar
01-25-2008, 09:06 AM
mostly because of the inconsistent nature of the calls,

I'm still waiting for someone to actually detail out exactly how the foul calls were inconsistent.

Thanks.

greybeard
01-25-2008, 09:06 AM
I didn't see the game. However, in reading an article in the Washington Post on it, Seth's boys, and therefore probably Seth, see in Duke's signature pressure on defense an implied attempt to intimidate. The players saw as their primary mission not to be cowed by that intimidation but rather to meet it. What came through to me in that article, particularly having already read the posts here, was that their efforts to do so were uneven and well wobbley. They, both players and Seth, seemed to acknowledge that. They found that to be most disappointing.

Part of that unevenness could well explain why they played at times over-the-line. Being tough against perceived intimidation, certainly stiffling defense, can lead to that, especially by a young and undermanned team. That is not to say that I think that Seth or his team regret going over the line. I don't think that they do. What they regret is not having been able to meet Duke's pressure, look it in the eye, and come at it with an even and superior intensity.

Interesting. From that perspective, the over-the-line play that Duke encountered last night is a tribute once again to the quality of players that K has recruited and to their ability to learn to bring it hard and steady in a manner that can shake others who are not meaningfully less experienced then them (I think that we have a sentence here).

In other words, one option is to leave it at being proud of how Duke has matured into a group which can bring cohessive intensity in a truly unusually sophisicated fashion, and not be hatin on no one for being wobbly and ungainly in trying to match. ;)

_Gary
01-25-2008, 09:07 AM
Sorry, Gary, but you couldn't be more wrong. There was no explicit intent to injure on Washington's fault.

I can possibly see how someone with Duke-colored-glasses on could view it that way, but Washington's move was borderline at best, and you're not going to get a veteran D-1 official to call a technical on that play even if it were. The most you would get there would be an intentional foul and that would even be pushing it.

Do you know which play I'm talking about? Because if we are talking about the same play you have me baffled. And I'm not trying to be a smart aleck either. I'm honestly baffled.

Gary

CDu
01-25-2008, 09:08 AM
Sorry, Gary, but you couldn't be more wrong. There was no explicit intent to injure on Washington's fault.

I can possibly see how someone with Duke-colored-glasses on could view it that way, but Washington's move was borderline at best, and you're not going to get a veteran D-1 official to call a technical on that play even if it were. The most you would get there would be an intentional foul and that would even be pushing it.

While I THINK that Washington fully intended to undercut Nelson on that play, I'll have to agree with feldspar in that there wasn't sufficient justification for a technical. It was borderline, and could very easily have been viewed as accidental.

tux
01-25-2008, 09:10 AM
The physical nature of the game has been talked about plenty --- I'll just say that I'm glad no one got hurt out there.

FT shooting is going to cause us a lot of heartburn down the road. The most improvement is needed by Gerald and DeMarcus. The two guys who can get to the line the most are the most inconsistent. That is going to kill us at some point, especially in March when the games get tight and good FT shooting becomes as important as good PG play.

Speaking of Gerald, he has such a beautiful mid-range jumper but against quick athletic teams he has a tendency to over-penetrate and get stripped. He had 5 TOs last night and 0 assists. I can live with the 0 assists, as that is not really his role, but if he's going to shoot 3-8 from the line he'd be better off pulling up for a jumper instead of trying to get two dribbles closer to the rim. Some tweaks to the offense could help Gerald in this regard. Our spacing is great, but we're trying to drive the ball from the wings on almost every possession. Like I said, this is great for drawing fouls (if we make the FTs), putting pressure on the D, and using our athleticism on the wings to our advantage. But asking Gerald and DeMarcus to create shots at that rate becomes too predictable --- the defense really starts collapsing on their drives and the result is too many TOs. Our opponents realize that those guys are not great at finding people once they get into the lane. (Nelson has improved greatly this year and had 4 asssists last night.) My point is that I would love for Duke to mix in some sets for Gerald where he gets the ball off a pick in the lane/elbow for jumpshots once in a while, just to get him going and in a good rhythm. I just think this will open up a few things for Duke, and take some of the pressure off him to create his own shot. (Similar plays could be run for Scheyer and Singler.)

feldspar
01-25-2008, 09:13 AM
Do you know which play I'm talking about? Because if we are talking about the same play you have me baffled. And I'm not trying to be a smart aleck either. I'm honestly baffled.

Gary

See CDu's post.

If I was forced to make up my mind, I would say that (based on his play throughout the entire game) Washington was trying to undercut Nelson.

However, that's not the way you officiate basketball. You don't officiate based on assumptions. You officiate based on the facts at hand.

And the fact is that the move Washington made on that play, as has been pointed out by other posters as well, was borderline at best, and could easily have been interpreted as Washington trying to duck and get out of Nelson's way.

Which means you can't call an intentional foul, much LESS a technical.

_Gary
01-25-2008, 09:14 AM
While I THINK that Washington fully intended to undercut Nelson on that play, I'll have to agree with feldspar in that there wasn't sufficient justification for a technical. It was borderline, and could very easily have been viewed as accidental.

I can see the argument if someone is saying that the refs were not in a position to see what happened and therefore couldn't gage intent. But I'm taking into account that Washington had played chippy all night up to that point and took a quick leep to get under Markie after he had left his feet. The play itself, had it been the only thing Washington had done to that point, would NOT have warranted a technical because it certainly could have been viewed as accidental. But don't officials have within their discretion the ability to assign "intent" with plays like that? See, how come you and I can come to the conclusion that Washington did it intentionally but you think the refs can't come to that conclusion? That's what I don't get.

Gary

_Gary
01-25-2008, 09:18 AM
See CDu's post.

If I was forced to make up my mind, I would say that (based on his play throughout the entire game) Washington was trying to undercut Nelson.

However, that's not the way you officiate basketball. You don't officiate based on assumptions. You officiate based on the facts at hand.

And the fact is that the move Washington made on that play, as has been pointed out by other posters as well, was borderline at best, and could easily have been interpreted as Washington trying to duck and get out of Nelson's way.

Which means you can't call an intentional foul, much LESS a technical.

I understand that basic principle, Feldspar. I really do. But when things get as ridiculous as they did last night with one particular player, I thought officials were allowed to consider previous rough play when making "judgment" calls. Are you telling me that officials never, ever consider WHO committed the foul when determining intent? I find that very hard to believe and I've seen the opposite play out plenty of times in the past.

Gary

Devil07
01-25-2008, 09:18 AM
I didn't see the game. However, in reading an article in the Washington Post on it, Seth's boys, and therefore probably Seth, see in Duke's signature pressure on defense an implied attempt to intimidate. The players saw as their primary mission not to be cowed by that intimidation but rather to meet it.

I agree 100% with this. This quote from Seth after the game really highlighted that to me:


"Both teams were a little frisky," Greenberg said. "I'm sure [Greg] Paulus is probably tired of seeing the bottom of Deron's shorts."

Greenberg was referring to Washington having hurdled Paulus for a layup in the previous meeting.
http://www.roanoke.com/sports/vtbasketball/wb/148364

When the coach has a chip on his shoulder large enough to rip on an opposing player it is hardly surprising that his players play the same way.

Dukerati
01-25-2008, 09:18 AM
I completely agree with Gary. What was borderline about the play? I watched it over and over on DVR and Deron is standing by the basket, knowing a foul has been called (which is why he didn't contest the shot), does not move until Dermarcus has left his feet, and ducks his head into Demarcus's knees.

What was Washington trying to do on that play? What possible reason could justify such a move? I could understand trying to grab demarcus to slow him down and not have him attempt a meaningless layup attempt at your basket. But the duck-under? No one EVER does that. It's an unnatural basketball move and dirty. I don't think Deron had intent to injure, but there was certainly intent of some kind there and it wasn't good.

feldspar
01-25-2008, 09:21 AM
See, how come you and I can come to the conclusion that Washington did it intentionally but you think the refs can't come to that conclusion? That's what I don't get.

Gary

Because you and I are allowed to go back and say to ourselves "Washington has played chippy all night, so I'm going to base my interpretation of the play on that." Why? Because we're fans and we can do and say whatever we want.

Officials are not given that discretion, for the most part, on a play like this. The problem with the play we're discussing is that it wasn't blatant. It wasn't self-evident. If it were, I could have seen Washington getting tossed on that play. But it wasn't.

The only time officials (should) take into account prior actions is when a play is extreme. This play wasn't.

Since it wasn't, the officials' responsibility is to take the play on face value.

jjasper0729
01-25-2008, 09:21 AM
anyone else read gerald sr's lips during those free throw displays??? we had to laugh a bit. the woodshed indeed.

I was reading them when they showed him after a miss. also, his eyes rolling. Jr better be glad he was going back to campus and not going home after that game.

mbd1mbd1
01-25-2008, 09:22 AM
Yeah. Washington was deliberately trying to undercut DeMarcus. If he wanted to get out of the way, he could have easily done it without taking Nelson's legs out.

Indoor66
01-25-2008, 09:22 AM
Seriously - had nothing wrong with your post - you just have everything wrong with giving unc that many fans in your sig. GTH, Carolina, GTH!

Maybe he should use 2,000 fans and 2,000,000,000,000 wannabe's or fair weather fans?

_Gary
01-25-2008, 09:26 AM
The only time officials (should) take into account prior actions is when a play is extreme. This play wasn't.

Since it wasn't, the officials' responsibility is to take the play on face value.

Ok, and this is where we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I thought the play was extreme [see Dukerati's post above]. It was an unnatural move that made no sense because he wasn't in Markie's way when Nelson left the floor. He slid under him and then tried to make it look like he was ducking. I just think that was weird, unnatural, extreme and - based on what we had seen up to that point - intentional. Thus it should have resulted in him being T'ed up and tossed immediately.

Just my two cents, and I appreciate the civil disagreement on this point.

Take care,

Gary

P.S. Had Markie actually been undercut fully and gone hard to the floor does your opinion change as to what the officials could have and should have done?

4decadedukie
01-25-2008, 09:32 AM
Do we really want another Dickie V or someone who does nothing but cheer for Duke as s/he announces...? I don't think so.

Yes, that is exactly what I want: Unconstrained Duke advocacy, as long as it is factually accurate. I realize thatís not good broadcasting or journalism and that it likely exacerbates the common, anti-Duke deluge; however, DukeDevilDeb, you asked for my personal preference.

mr. synellinden
01-25-2008, 09:33 AM
They showed his Dad a few times when he missed a freebie. His Dad will take him to the wood shed.

At one point you could clearly read Sr.'s lips and he said "how can you go from being an 80% free throw shooter to a 65% free throw shooter?" And he clearly looked disgusted.

That was the major negative in this game. When your two best slashers - Henderson and Nelson - shoot 5-13 on FTs, or whatever it was, that is a major problem. There is undoubtedly going to be an ACC or NCAA Tournament game in which we will have to make FTs down the stretch to win and I am afraid this will be our Achilles weakness, more so than the lack of a post presence.

On the positive side, Lance looks ready to start making consistent meaningful contributions.

Our defense was outstanding again.

We worked the slow down game extremely well. One of the reasons I loved this strategy in this game was because it will help keep our legs fresh for MD - back to back ACC road games are always draining and a down to the wire slugfest with VT would have made it harder to bounce back and be sharp for MD.

SINGLER. I loved how you could just tell that he decided to take control of the game during a few short stretches. You first saw it in the first half after he made that ridiculous behind the back pass to Nelson for the layup. Then at the beginning of the second half starting with the 3 to answer their 3. I hope that is the beginning of us seeing more of that.

I think Henderson had one of his worst games of the season, if not the worst, but even in the midst of that you can see how good his mid-range/pull up game his. He rises on his mid-range jump shots and they look so pure coming out of his hands.

King can really shoot from anywhere inside of half court. It is ridiculous.

One question: the last three games it looks like Paulus is taking a lot of rushed, forced, off balance or quick three pointers. Does he just have the green light to shoot it any time or do these shots upset the coaching staff as much as they do one uninformed fan?

feldspar
01-25-2008, 09:38 AM
One question: the last three games it looks like Paulus is taking a lot of rushed, forced, off balance or quick three pointers. Does he just have the green light to shoot it any time or do these shots upset the coaching staff as much as they do one uninformed fan?

He's making a lot of them, so I imagine he has the green light, and for good reason.

johnb
01-25-2008, 09:41 AM
Did Washington undercut Nelson on purpose? Have you ever seen a player make that same play before (actively crouching into/under a leaping player)? I haven't. Did he trip Singler on purpose? I think so.

Washington's decision to undercut was made in a moment, as was his decision to trip Singler. In the heat of battle, lots can happen.

The thought process in which dangerous behavior becomes reconceptualized into "frisky"behavior is more complex, however, and has been instilled for 4 years by his coach. I think Washington should have gotten T'ed, but I blame Greenberg for Tech's thuggery.

As for us, great game. This may become, down-the-line, the toughest Duke team ever. We've had lots of great players over the years, but there is often someone on each of those teams with whom I might have second thoughts about sharing a foxhole. Not this group.

greybeard
01-25-2008, 09:45 AM
Devil07, I'm not sure you can confidently read that quote about Paulus as a rip. Paulus is a baller and, when things get overly physical, he pushes forward into the frey, and mixes it up pretty good. None of the Dukies back down from anyone. Paulus will step forward quicker than most.

Maybe coaches around the league see Paulus as being on the proactive side of rough play when he feels his team is being pushed. Not a rip at all then, at least as I see it.

On the other hand, maybe Seth saw Paulus' play as being overly aggressive to begin with, especially with regard to VT's freshman whom he thought he could intimidate. Maybe he didn't like it. If that was the case, I agree with you completely: the guy should have kept his mouth shut, no question.

jjasper0729
01-25-2008, 09:47 AM
Did Washington undercut Nelson on purpose? Have you ever seen a player make that same play before (actively crouching into/under a leaping player)? I haven't. Did he trip Singler on purpose? I think so.

um.... kenny denard maybe?

Duvall
01-25-2008, 09:53 AM
One question: the last three games it looks like Paulus is taking a lot of rushed, forced, off balance or quick three pointers. Does he just have the green light to shoot it any time or do these shots upset the coaching staff as much as they do one uninformed fan?

It's become pretty clear that our coaching staff wants shooters to shoot. That doesn't mean they agree with every shot taken, but the green light is given freely.

Uncle Drew
01-25-2008, 09:53 AM
So the officiating last night was terrible, mostly because of the inconsistent nature of the calls, but if we all sit here and say that everything went against Duke, then you'd be sorely mistaken. Both teams suffered because of the officiating mess of that game. Yes Nelson was pissed, and yes the officials probably missed a call on the play referenced above, but they didn't pick him up off the floor and send him over to get into Washington's face. (Which, BTW, I love that he did!).

To wit: how many people acknowledged, during the game, that we got a way with a fouled when LT dove for a ball under Washington's legs and took him to the ground. I'm pretty sure that should have been a foul.


The LT play SHOULD have been called a foul on LT despite the great hustle because he did take the VT's players legs out from under him. (A charge without possession of the ball if you will.) I don't think anyone is saying Duke or VT got all the calls, and certainly no one is saying the refs got all the calls right. They never do.

Feld, most of the time I agree with your posts. But this entire thread is 90% about perspective. To refute your perspective would take a replay of the game pointing out incidents at the 2:10 mark, 5:35 mark etc. (No those aren't bible verses!) I can give you examples but without video / photo evidence to post along with it, it's all perspective. In a game that physical I don't care if they called 24 fouls or 34 fouls. They could have called a foul on both teams every time down the court. IMO and others the refs only called the most blatant and physical fouls. Again it's all about perspective. If this were a playground game, NBA game or Big East game the physical nature of the play might not only be normal but expected.

Guard on guard defense most of the night was devoid of hand check ticky tack fouls. If a guard penetrated on either team there was usually hand, forearm, body contact on the part of the defense or the offense. The refs as I stated before let them play. Then when Smith had the ball just past half court on one occasion a VT player (I'm sorry, I didn't tape the game, so I can't give you the minute mark or the name of the VT player.) hand checked Smith and was called for a foul. The commentators cited it as an example of inconstancy. Though again I agree using them as a basis for my argument is like using my ex-wife as an example of proper credit card management. Drives to the basket, especially by Duke were met with body contact most of the time with no call. Though I will say when a player like Washington sends a couple of those into the third row the refs are more likely to be looking up for contact from that point on instead of for body and forearm contact.


When I use a term like letting them play, by that I mean the game was allowed to take on a physical nature even with the many fouls called. I agree with Feld in that I hate games that have so many fouls called in them it becomes a free throw shooting contest. (Except against Clemson of course!) But in an NFL game you want interference, holding, clipping called no matter how often it occurs. To let the players just play might as well be throwing the rules out the window. (Yes I know in football the refs could call holding on every play, don't go there!) As for there being no intent by Washington to injure Nelson, they guy has to make it look good for the refs and ACC commissioner. He can't run up and clothes line nelson on the way to the basket. But he can make a conscious effort to stick is glutimus maximus out a little farther as a player is flying by to under cut him. And IMO (again perspective) I think that's what Washington did and was trying to do several times during the game. As for posters citing perceived immaturity on his part, the guy is a senior. If he hasn't matured into a better leader and example yet the odds of it happening between now and March are about as good as Taylor king getting the ball in his hands and saying, "woah, I think I'm a little too far from the basket to be taking this shot.


To be frank Gary had the moist poignant statement when he said:
Frankly, the refs should have done two things early in the game. Firstly, they should have pulled both coaches together and told them to get the players under control (this would have been more directed at Seth, but say it to both coaches regardless). Secondly, if that didn't clean things up they should have immediately handed out technicals. You can't let players do what Washington did to DeMarcus and get away with it as an official. You are asking for bad results if you do.

Nelsons technical was over the last of numerous thuggery on the part of VT and Washington in particular. In the final score it matters not, but if the game had been close a lot of us would have been throwing bricks through our TV. VT runs a low class program with low class players. The Melchioni incident being cited as an example of a history of the type of ball being played by this team at the directive of their coach and in particular by Washington. I actually love the guys athleticism, energy and passion. But it would be better served in scoring, rebounding and perhaps passing instead of seeing how irritated he could get Duke players last night.

elvis14
01-25-2008, 09:55 AM
So I've quoted a bunch of guys here to respond. There's over a hundred posts! Let me say that this was a good road in in the ACC and for the second game in a row our team showed poise in a game where the other team attempted to be physical and chippy to gain and advantage.


I really didn't see any bias in the refs. They just didn't call a lot of things... both ways.

I didn't see it that way at all. I was talking with a friend last night that was watching the game live. I was on my way to an 8:30 volleyball match. We had a 10 point lead when I left the house, I asked what happened the rest of the half and he said, "we are only up by 4 at halftime, the refs really did a good job keeping VT in the game". So when I get home and watched the rest of the first half I agreed. I thought the officiating was very one sided and generally terrible. I thought there were some pretty weak calls against Duke and lots of time where VT was allowed to beat on us with no calls. Did Jon have a sign on this back that read "please call a foul on me"? I was hardly allowed to participate!


I completely agree. I thought Elmore in particular was excellent tonight and gave Duke lots of props.

I don't understand the sheer volume of discussion about the announcers. They are the same guys, they pretty much suck. Because Duke is hated by so many people and we are on TV so much, announcers fear singing our praises too much so they go too far the other way. Doesn't matter if it's Elmore, Bilas, Patrick. They are talking heads, generally gutless, and not interestiong so why all the discussion about them?


Forget the talent, a thugs a thug. I am glad our captain stood up to him.
What a great choice Coach K made by appointing him the sole captain.
We have real men on our team. I wish we could play Pitt again.

Not only did I think Demarcus did the right thing in that situation, I'm very proud of him. I don't think he "lost his head" at all. I think he did what he needed to do in that situation. Where that situation is a game that's over, VT's arse had been kicked, Washingthug intentionally undercut him. I'm glad he stepped up and got a "T" and how he did it. He didn't get out of control or anything.


I'm pretty sure it was "Tea Bag Paulus," but I can't be 100% sure.

OK, I laughed out loud when I read that. Poor Greg.


I don't think we are giving Nelson enough credit. It had been a rough game and he had received and given. He knew the amount of time left and the score. The game was over, so he had the last "words" and took a seat. My guess is, this would not have happened if the score had been closer.
My two cents...

I agree with that 100%.


Sorry, Gary, but you couldn't be more wrong. There was no explicit intent to injure on Washington's fault.


While I THINK that Washington fully intended to undercut Nelson on that play, I'll have to agree with feldspar in that there wasn't sufficient justification for a technical. It was borderline, and could very easily have been viewed as accidental.

Sorry guys, I have to agree with Gary on this one. Given the way this game went and Washingthug's antics all game long, I would have given him a "T" right there and to me his intent was obvious. When a player is walking the line all game long between getting a "T" and not getting a "T", the officials should simply tell him "that's enough of that crap, anything else from you and I'll give you a technical". Since they didn't do that and since the play where he undercut Demarcus put DMark in danger a "T" would have been appropriate.

Enough about refs and Washingthug and idiot announcers, however, how about the good stufff:

- We won on the road in the ACC
- Balanced scoring with lots of guys pitching in
- Another game where we played good defense, put good pressure on the ball all game long, and forced turnovers
- Someone else pointed out that we used stall ball and extended our lead. I hate it when stall ball is used inappropriately. Last night it was used very appropriately and it basically ended any and all hope that VT might have had.
- Lance had a pretty good game and we got another solid effort from Nolan Smith.
- Taylor King came off the bench and provided a spark, he's so much fun to watch
- I just love the chemistry of this team. It was so cool they way they just dealt with all the chippy play and just kept grinding away together as a team and beat down VT.

mr. synellinden
01-25-2008, 10:05 AM
He's making a lot of them, so I imagine he has the green light, and for good reason.

Well, actually, he's not.

His last three games he is 2-15. (VT - 1-5; CLEM 0-4; FSU 1-6). And since the start of the year (2008) he is 8-32 - 25&#37;.

That's why I noticed. He seems to have shot a lot of airballs and other poor 3-pointers recently. What I mean is he is shooting a lot his long-range shots in a rushed or off-balance manner. They're the shots that make you say, "that's a bad shot." It seems to me that he's forcing a lot offensively right now. I know he's made a couple of key plays at the end of games and had a big steal and layup against Clemson, but I think he is playing as poorly during the last three or four games as he did during stretches last season. I have always loved Paulus but to my eye he has regressed since ACC play started. I hope he comes out of it.

BlueDevilBaby
01-25-2008, 10:08 AM
I'm pretty sure it was "Tea Bag Paulus," but I can't be 100% sure.

I thought I heard "Keep in Paulus". Well, they got what they wished for and he played pretty darn well.

Devil07
01-25-2008, 10:13 AM
Devil07, I'm not sure you can confidently read that quote about Paulus as a rip. Paulus is a baller and, when things get overly physical, he pushes forward into the frey, and mixes it up pretty good. None of the Dukies back down from anyone. Paulus will step forward quicker than most.

Maybe coaches around the league see Paulus as being on the proactive side of rough play when he feels his team is being pushed. Not a rip at all then, at least as I see it.

On the other hand, maybe Seth saw Paulus' play as being overly aggressive to begin with, especially with regard to VT's freshman whom he thought he could intimidate. Maybe he didn't like it. If that was the case, I agree with you completely: the guy should have kept his mouth shut, no question.

I agree with you, rip is probably not the right way to describe this. Clearly Paulus has a way of getting under the skin of opponents (coaches and players). There's no real issue in him acknowledging that Paulus was mixing things up. What I found telling about the quote was that he chose to make a crack about Washington dunking over Paulus last year. Usually coaches try to remain above the fray when it comes to essentially trash talk. So I guess that it wasn't really the fact that Greenberg mentioned Paulus, but the way that he more or less mocked him that struck me.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
01-25-2008, 10:14 AM
Well, I'm late to the party. Just a few thoughts (that won't involve the announcers/officiating). :)

1) Tough, gritty win for our guys. For the last few seasons the "book" on Duke is that we are soft and if you pop us in the mouth we'll fold. Not tonight. Every player took hard hits and gave as good as they got. I'm tremendously proud of our guys, especially our captain who did great all night and got his talking in after the game was decided.

2) Taylor King's crazy 3's have garnered some praise, but I was impressed with his all-around game. In one stretch in the first half he got a tough rebound, got a rebound, blocked a shot, hit a three . . . and was taken out of the game. I'm not going to second-guess K on this one, but I was surprised that he was taken out when he was playing so well. Normally I'd assume K was trying to get a freshman some confidence (i.e. he made a good play, let him sit so he's out on a high note) but I don't think TK has any problems with his confidence. Still, whatever the strategy, it's working, as TK was excellent tonight in all aspects of the game.

3) Others have mentioned/alluded to this but slow down worked like a dream tonight. We milked about 6 minutes, extended our lead, protected guys with foul trouble, and took away most of the crowd energy/momentum. An unqualified success.

4) I've been down on Lance for the last 1.5 seasons, but tonight continues a string of really promising games. Solid (non-Roxbury) defense, much smoother offense, good rebounding, screening, etc. A switch seems to have been flipped for him and I'm VERY encouraged.

Overall, a frustrating game because of the chippy play, but a win I'm tremendously proud of and that augers very well for the future of the team.

mpj96
01-25-2008, 10:21 AM
4) I've been down on Lance for the last 1.5 seasons, but tonight continues a string of really promising games. Solid (non-Roxbury) defense, much smoother offense, good rebounding, screening, etc. A switch seems to have been flipped for him and I'm VERY encouraged.


Agreed. Lance's defense, offense, communication and confidence have increased exponentially over the last few games and Duke is considerably better for it. Keep it up , LT!

PS. Singler was just awesome in the second half of last night's game.

darthur
01-25-2008, 10:22 AM
Some random comments:

I strongly disagree with any claims the officiating was biased. I did think Scheyer got some bad breaks, and I do remember being unhappy at the end of the first half. However, Delaney's second foul - a really important call early in the first half - was a charge at Thomas that I thought was an obvious blocking foul. Other things that came to mind were the handcheck foul the commentators mentioned and the complete lack of calls going Washington's way throughout.

I did think the officiating was a little inconsistent, but college officiating always looks that way to me. No more or less so here

Deron Washington is a total punk - I can't stand him.

And Duke played really, really well I thought. Fantastic win.

77devil
01-25-2008, 10:23 AM
Well, actually, he's not.

His last three games he is 2-15. (VT - 1-5; CLEM 0-4; FSU 1-6). And since the start of the year (2008) he is 8-32 - 25&#37;.

That's why I noticed. He seems to have shot a lot of airballs and other poor 3-pointers recently. What I mean is he is shooting a lot his long-range shots in a rushed or off-balance manner. They're the shots that make you say, "that's a bad shot." It seems to me that he's forcing a lot offensively right now. I know he's made a couple of key plays at the end of games and had a big steal and layup against Clemson, but I think he is playing as poorly during the last three or four games as he did during stretches last season. I have always loved Paulus but to my eye he has regressed since ACC play started. I hope he comes out of it.

I'll speculate that he is putting pressure on himself from Nolan's play. 3 point shooting was the best part of Greg's game earlier in the season, and he is trying to make an impact now but making some bad choices as a result of the pressure real or imagined.

Madrasdukie
01-25-2008, 10:39 AM
The physical nature of the game has been talked about plenty --- I'll just say that I'm glad no one got hurt out there.

I absolutely agree, I'm very glad nobody on our team was hurt.



My point is that I would love for Duke to mix in some sets for Gerald where he gets the ball off a pick in the lane/elbow for jumpshots once in a while, just to get him going and in a good rhythm. I just think this will open up a few things for Duke, and take some of the pressure off him to create his own shot. (Similar plays could be run for Scheyer and Singler.)

I tend to think that there's a higher probability of Gerald improving his free throw &#37; than his jump shot % (which is graceful and Kobe-esque but needs more consistency). I've noticed the over-penetration as well, however he has made quite a few of those shots close to the basket contorting his body in ways only he can. But you're right, if the turnovers are a consistent problem (which is not yet the case) he/ the team needs to adjust.

In this regard, I'm excited to look forward to Nolan's performance-his quickness, speed and shot selection (not to mention his decent free throw %) makes me feel good.

Also, excited about Lance.

allenmurray
01-25-2008, 10:46 AM
Before the Duke game last night I watched my son's game. He plays for Carrington Middle School here in Durham - they played (and beat) Chewning Middle School.

About 15 seconds into the second half Carrington pulled down a defensive rebound. Their big man broke on a break - Chewning's defender was behind him, is a much faster player, and was gaining ground quickly. The Carrington big man caught the pass abut five feet from the basket and came to a jump stop - looking to get te layup and the foul. The defender couldn't stop as he was running so fast. He ran into the Carrington player from behind - so hard that when he hit him he flipped over his back, did a 180 in the air, and landed out of bounds on his neck. A parent in the crowd is an EMT, who ran right over and didn't let anybody move him. He stabilized him, and the kid left 40 minutes later, on a spine board, strapped to a gurney. It was one of the sacriest things I've ever seen in youth sports - and it happened in a completely clean play. From what I understand the kids is okay (I didn't learn that until thismorning), but I wouldn't have been surprised if he had been paralyzed from the neck down.

When I saw the undercut of Markie last night I thought I was going to be sick. The first thing that went through my head was, "I'm going to see two serious head/neck/paralysis injuries in one night."

It wasn't just the kind of play that is aggrtessive or "dirty", it was the kind of play that can change the course of a young person's live forever. Falling on your head or neck from a height of six or seven feet can be incredibly serious. I can't believe Washington wasn't tossed.

Kilby
01-25-2008, 10:55 AM
"Gerald, however, continues to play very unevenly and last night was no exception with 5 turnovers no assists, and below 50% from the line. The balance on the team manifests itself almost every game such that others pick up the slack when a teammate is having an off night. Hoping for big game from Gerald at College Park.[/QUOTE]"


Gerald played a solid game last night, and along with Singler and Nelson is one of Duke's most consistent if not their best player. Last night his offense was efficient, his passing was good, his defense and rebounding were tough and his TO's were not the ridiculous ones that you sometimes see from Paulus or King of Thomas. I don't mean to knock any of the three. I thought last nights game was as much a team win as Duke has had in the last three years. Paulus has stepped up his game with a floater and generally is playing with more confidence, Thomas is raising his game, and King is money when he is on. I just think that a lot of people are being unfairly critical of Henderson's game while giveng everyone else that has a poor outing (Paulus, Scheyer) a pass. I wonder why. I absolutely want Henderson to have the ball when Duke has to score.

tux
01-25-2008, 11:13 AM
Gerald played a solid game last night, and along with Singler and Nelson is one of Duke's most consistent if not their best player. Last night his offense was efficient, his passing was good, his defense and rebounding were tough and his TO's were not the ridiculous ones that you sometimes see from Paulus or King of Thomas. I don't mean to knock any of the three. I thought last nights game was as much a team win as Duke has had in the last three years. Paulus has stepped up his game with a floater and generally is playing with more confidence, Thomas is raising his game, and King is money when he is on. I just think that a lot of people are being unfairly critical of Henderson's game while giveng everyone else that has a poor outing (Paulus, Scheyer) a pass. I wonder why. I absolutely want Henderson to have the ball when Duke has to score.Since I mentioned Gerald in my post, I'll comment. I agree that Gerald is one of the key guys. He can create his own shot better than anyone else on the team. But, right now, he's also one of the least efficient guys on the team; there have been several games where he has taken the most shots and made a pretty low percentage. But so did Jordan, and so does Kobe. While he's not on their level yet, he's our version of that guy. He can get a shot off on every possession if he wanted to, and he's got the strength and quickness to draw a ton of fouls. Therefore, he has to hit his FTs if Duke is going to go very far in March. A bad FT night against a team with a good backcourt (i.e., that doesn't turn it over like Clemson and VT did) will absolutely kill us. I'm not trying to put the burden on Gerald, as Duke has a number of guys who can step up. But, he needs to work in that 15-17 foot jumper to keep the defense honest; he has the tendency to turn it over when the defense collapse on him in the lane, as he is not yet great at finding the open man but just tries to power through folks. I actually think the coaches are giving Gerald a lot of latitude to make some of these "mistakes of aggression" because Gerald needs to be aggressive (and smart); and he has such a high ceiling that I think the coaches know that if they let him figure this all out then he could be the guy (or one of the guys) that puts a NC within reach this year.

Madrasdukie
01-25-2008, 11:13 AM
It wasn't just the kind of play that is aggrtessive or "dirty", it was the kind of play that can change the course of a young person's live forever. Falling on your head or neck from a height of six or seven feet can be incredibly serious. I can't believe Washington wasn't tossed.

Very true. Of all the thuggish plays, the undercut was the one that sent a chill down my spine. Maybe, and hopefully, all the negative publicity Washington is getting (ESPN sportscenter etc..), will make the young man THINK of the serious repercussions of his actions.
The league should at the very least make a note of this to player (and coach).

Acymetric
01-25-2008, 11:18 AM
Before the Duke game last night I watched my son's game. He plays for Carrington Middle School here in Durham - they played (and beat) Chewning Middle School.

About 15 seconds into the second half Carrington pulled down a defensive rebound. Their big man broke on a break - Chewning's defender was behind him, is a much faster player, and was gaining ground quickly. The Carrington big man caught the pass abut five feet from the basket and came to a jump stop - looking to get te layup and the foul. The defender couldn't stop as he was running so fast. He ran into the Carrington player from behind - so hard that when he hit him he flipped over his back, did a 180 in the air, and landed out of bounds on his neck. A parent in the crowd is an EMT, who ran right over and didn't let anybody move him. He stabilized him, and the kid left 40 minutes later, on a spine board, strapped to a gurney. It was one of the sacriest things I've ever seen in youth sports - and it happened in a completely clean play. From what I understand the kids is okay (I didn't learn that until thismorning), but I wouldn't have been surprised if he had been paralyzed from the neck down.

When I saw the undercut of Markie last night I thought I was going to be sick. The first thing that went through my head was, "I'm going to see two serious head/neck/paralysis injuries in one night."

It wasn't just the kind of play that is aggrtessive or "dirty", it was the kind of play that can change the course of a young person's live forever. Falling on your head or neck from a height of six or seven feet can be incredibly serious. I can't believe Washington wasn't tossed.

That's how I've viewed this and several other instances the past years. I believe that if you're playing a sport, you have to have control of your body. Whether Washington was trying to take a cheap shot at Nelson or if he was simply doing something he thought made basketball sense (somehow), he has to have more control. I think it was intentional, and should have been called as such, but even if it wasn't, should players really be allowed to play with such disregard for the other players that those plays can happen? Not all injuries are subject to this, sometimes a play just goes bad, landing on a foot, falling on someone, or something like that, but in this case it was either Washington being dirty or Washington being dangerously stupid, and neither should be allowed.

johnb
01-25-2008, 11:32 AM
...hopefully, all the negative publicity Washington is getting (ESPN sportscenter etc..), will make the young man THINK of the serious repercussions of his actions.
...

The Tech basketball boards are about 10:1 in support of Washington. Their focus is on ESPN's purported bias. They also link to DBR's thread about whether DW is the dirtiest player in the ACC, generally indicating disbelief at our general view of their thuggery. His coach called his team's behavior frisky, just as his initial response to Allen's elbowing of the ref was support of his player.

Given the viewpoint of the Tech supporters and administration, why should Washington reflect on his actions, much less make any changes?

diesel
01-25-2008, 11:34 AM
Loved the game last night. I actually thought Len Elmore called the game wellóparticularly in continually drawing attention to Washingtonís drama queen act. I did get tired of hearing how VT would have been tougher with Allen in the game. He wasnít, and the way VT plays I think it might be normal for them to go into games with one player suspended. And I too wished Demarcus hadnít been goaded into yapping at Washington.

Moving on, that behind the back pass by Singler was truly a thing of beauty.

Just one problem, The alpha female in the family wanted something done when Taylor King made his farthest out 3 shot. Would it be on You-Tube or otherwise available to see now?

devildeac
01-25-2008, 11:36 AM
The Tech basketball boards are about 10:1 in support of Washington. Their focus is on ESPN's purported bias. They also link to DBR's thread about whether DW is the dirtiest player in the ACC, generally indicating disbelief at our general view of their thuggery. His coach called his team's behavior frisky, just as his initial response to Allen's elbowing of the ref was support of his player.

Given the viewpoint of the Tech supporters and administration, why should Washington reflect on his actions, much less make any changes?

maybe the acc office will intervene-nahh

BlueDevilJay
01-25-2008, 11:47 AM
Thats why I wanted him tossed for it as well. An undercut is what effectively ended my baseball career (had a scholarship to play at Miami (FL)) that was rescinded after I tore both my ACL and MCL, after being undercut by a goon while I was attempting a dunk in a high school basketball game. This idiot DID end my career with it, and I have no tolerance for it. Those who say what Washington did was innocent, have their heads in the sand. He knew what he was doing, and I figure there would be quite a diff tone had DeMarcus came down hard and been injured.

AKG
01-25-2008, 11:48 AM
I think whatever Nelson said was probably warranted. Nelson has suffered several injuries throughout his duke career, and his primary offensive skill is getting to the rack. I can tell you from my own limited experience that Washington's attempt to undercut is an extremely dirty play. You are never more helpless than when in midair attacking the rim. A play on the ball is fine...I can even tolerate attempting to take a charge and getting there late. Backing into a helpless player in midair is a dirty play. period. I think the NCAA should make a rule change to make this an intentional foul. It has no place in organized basketball, and I would expect Nelson to step up and defend himself. This was also not an isolated incident...I'm willing to accept a T and DQ in exchange for vocal leadership.

Highlander
01-25-2008, 12:32 PM
Posted this on another thread...

One thing I'm curious about for those of you watched the undercutting play a few times: Did anyone else see LT extending his arms into Washington's back? I couldn't tell how much force there was, but another interpretation of the play was that Thomas pushed Washington into the play, and he ducked to avoid colliding with Nelson, who was in midair.

I watched the play 5-6 times and even slowed it down and I couldn't tell. Anyone else see it?

Before anyone jumps all over me, I still think DW's a jerk.

stals
01-25-2008, 12:32 PM
Feldspar-

You must have been an official.It seems that they can do no wrong inyou rmind.

Salty Breezes
01-25-2008, 12:42 PM
While I don't doubt that the VT boards are pro-Deron, I can say that there are many VT fans out there who were highly embarrassed by their team's play last night, and by Washington's thuggery in particular. I watched the game last night with my wife (a VT grad) and some other VT grads, and they were all appalled and embarrassed by Washington's behavior.

Interestingly, if you go to the Tech student paper online, the one response to the article (by a Hokie fan) bashes Deron, and bashes Seth for not doing something about it. My guess is that the silent majority of VT fans are pretty upset about the "thug" label that is pretty squarely attached to their football and basketball programs. I know I would be.

Another thing all of us agreed on was that the intentional foul called on Deron was, ironically, one of the few plays where he wasn't meaning to foul. It looked to us as if he were throwing a bit of a temper tantrum over his presumed mistreatment on the previous play, and Singler just happened to run past him while he was in the middle of his tantrum. As the father of a young child, I'm actually pretty good at spotting this particular scenario.

feldspar
01-25-2008, 12:46 PM
It seems that they can do no wrong inyou rmind.

Interesting, since I've pointed out several areas where they messed up last night.

Madrasdukie
01-25-2008, 01:23 PM
Given the viewpoint of the Tech supporters and administration, why should Washington reflect on his actions, much less make any changes?

I guess you mean Deron's immediate environment doesn't predispose him to reflect along the right lines - I agree and that's unfortunate. Perhaps it will, cumulatively with time, weigh on his (and the coach's conscience) before it's too late!!

There's another thread (Salty Breezes) that talks about objective reactions from some VT associated people. Maybe there's some hope.

Lulu
01-25-2008, 02:15 PM
This comment is a little less than serious, but regarding the refs I'm surprised no one has mentioned the likely disinclination they would have in calling a technical against any player opposing Duke these days. I mean, what official wants to get suspended again?

Clipsfan
01-25-2008, 02:55 PM
that was a good old fashion ACC game. No holds bar.

Shows that Duke will not Back Down. Nelson, though, needs to keep his composure.

Overall a good win considering the contact.

Nelson did an admirable job of keeping his composure considering everything. I know I would have lost it at least one or two attempts to injure me earlier and almost definitely after the undercut.

bjornolf
01-25-2008, 03:55 PM
I was watching the game last night and they did a close-up of Scheyer after he got a foul called on him where his mouth fell open in a semi-smile and his eyebrows shot up into his hair...did anybody else think he looked JUST like Macaulay Culkin from his Home Alone/Uncle Buck days? Especially that scene in Uncle Buck where he looks out the mail slot when he's waiting for Amy Madigan's character and sees the three grown men outside it? His mouth fell open and his eyebrows shot up in the EXACT same way. Not so much the current Culkin, but the one from 20 years ago. ;)

I_am_a_Blue_Devil
01-25-2008, 07:46 PM
Just curious to see how the other side felt about last night and this says it all really....

http://www.techsideline.com/message_board/basketball/2008/January/25/280978.php

DevilCastDownfromDurham
01-25-2008, 07:58 PM
I am deeply concerned about the opinions of those type of VTech fans. They are clearly knowledgeable and insightful in their discussion. Their disapproval cuts me to the core. . .

I_am_a_Blue_Devil
01-25-2008, 08:04 PM
Hahaha yea, I know. Such massive basketball credibility and wisdom. Im not sure if we will be able to recover from such a lack of approval. If anyone cares to check out the rest of the board there are some just over the top statements made. Good for a laugh or to get you fired up, either way you want to take it. I am right down the road from blacksburg and was cheering my face off at the game last night, and that was one of the most classless displays on and off the court I have witnessed in a long time.

sandinmyshoes
01-25-2008, 08:08 PM
Without going over there to read it, I'm going to predict that they are complaining about officiating. Making up derogatory names of players on teams besides their own. Talking about their class versus the class of other programs. And almost certainly somewhere on their board is a thread linking to a thread on another board where someone is saying not nice things about their program. Just a guess.

I_am_a_Blue_Devil
01-25-2008, 08:13 PM
This one makes me litterally laugh out loud


"Subject: We just have to realize
Posted by: bubbavt1 on Fri Jan 25 2008 11:03:10 AM
Message:


That our high academic standards keeps us from recruiting the getting
star athletes that Duke gets. "

cspan37421
01-25-2008, 08:14 PM
Love is blind

and sometimes, stupid.

ChicagoDevil
01-25-2008, 08:45 PM
Love is blind

and sometimes, stupid.

In this case, its just stupid being stupid......

weezie
01-25-2008, 08:50 PM
Man, DBR could kick the Hokie Hotline's can any time, anywhere.

Pitiful bunch over there.

OldPhiKap
01-25-2008, 09:14 PM
I wonder if Michael Vick gets on-line privileges. I bet his posts would be enlightening on the subject.

dukegirlinsc
01-25-2008, 09:20 PM
This one makes me litterally laugh out loud


"Subject: We just have to realize
Posted by: bubbavt1 on Fri Jan 25 2008 11:03:10 AM
Message:


That our high academic standards keeps us from recruiting the getting
star athletes that Duke gets. "

hahahahahhahaha.
that is a BRILLIANT STATEMENT.
love it.

calltheobvious
01-25-2008, 09:39 PM
Washington is a dirty player because he knows how to walk the fine line between legal play and illegal play enough to get under other players' skin.

You have to understand how difficult it is for officials to manage a player who walks this fine line. You can't penalize play that is not technically illegal, but just seems dirty. You just can't. I'm sorry if that frustrates you but officials have certain rules they administer. They don't have the discretion to step outside those rules.

As I said, the fact that this game didn't turn into an all out bloodbath is owed in large part to the officiating crew.

I actually feel the exact opposite way that you do, in fact. The intentional foul call on Washington surprised me when I looked at the replay because I didn't see any intent to do anything except flail his body around like a ragdoll to try and get some attention. But the officials decided to "nip it in the bud" as it were, and to me, that was the turning point in the game.

I'm late to the party, but I'd be remiss if I didn't give support Feldspar's comments on the degree of difficulty of officiating last night's game. I've skimmed three long threads, so I'll pull a few ideas that I think haven't been sufficiently addressed.

There are two plays that I really wish the crew could have over: the intentional foul that was and the one that wasn't (sure, the goaltend was missed, but given the context, not that big a deal). Washington's entanglement with Singler was a reflex call, understandable on several levels. A) Crew knows Washington's been pushing it all game long, B) He's showing his a** after a well-officiated no-call, C) He's flailing about, makes contact, and the result is an opponent having a wood sandwich. Problem is that it seemed upon replay to be unintentional (with 98% certainty).

I think that the crew recognized the iffiness of the call, and that's why Washington was not given an intentional for excessive contact against Nelson on the later dunk attempt, despite the fact that it was justified on th merits. I can't really fault the crew too much here, though; it sucks, but this is Duke, and neither officials nor their supervisors want to be the subject of discussion for three straight days on ESPN. Even if the second play justified an intentional, that would have made two on the same guy with only one justified, and we'd have been hearing about this game two months from now. As it was, the two plays wash in the court of public opinion, and unless you were going to give him a flagrant intentional (which I think would have been a stretch), he was going to remain in the game regardless.

On the play...

For my money, there's no doubt that Washington was trying to undercut Nelson while maintaining plausible deniability (and FWIW, he did it expertly). It's the plausible deniability that I want to focus on a little bit differently from the way Feldspar analyzed the play.

Keep in mind that the first intentional has already been called (and I'm not sure the crew were totally sold on the quality of that call). You have two options refereeing Washington on the Nelson drive: 1) what happened, or 2) flagrant technical. Given that Nelson was up in the air and in a very vulnerable position, if you rule that Washington intentionally moved under Nelson, you have to go flagrant technical and dump him right there. There simply is no middle ground for unsportsmanlike conduct there (although it certainly was that). It's either USC and thereby flagrant, or it's incidental contact.

Either way, the most important idea there is that if you're going to pull the trigger on the flagrant, you have to be absolutely, 100% (more if possible) damn sure of yourself. You simply cannot be wrong in a situation like that. As fans, it's easy to sit back in the recliner and to talk about how it's their job to be completely objective, but you can't totally divorce these guys from their humanity. And for the purposes of the game, I think the overriding factor was that without the benefit of replay, Washington did have plausible deniability. And if he's run on the play, how do you think Greenberg's going to react? He's going to get himself run, too, in an attempt to draw more attention to the officials. And don't forget that at this point, there's still plenty of time on the clock for things to get worse. My hope here is not to persuade anyone to see things exactly the way I do, but to try to illuminate some issues that the crew were dealing with that weren't easy to see.

Lastly, in the course of writing this, I think I've had an insight that's going to make a lot of you roll your eyes, but that also seems to square pretty well with what happened. What if I'm right about the way the crew were looking at the game up through the hard foul by DW on DN. And what if Hess thinks the intentional there is the wrong call in context, but recognizes what's going on, i.e. 'we gotta get this stuff under control pronto.' He knows Nelson has four fouls (always remember that to get to that level, you have to know how many fouls the key players have at all times). Nelson pops off at Washington. The T on Nelson is the right call in the moment and the right call for the game. He's on firm ground on the face of things, and he also gets the Duke player out of the game that's the closest to erupting.

Now it could fairly be argued that there's no justice in this, given what I consider the fact that DW was on the giving end of the business far more often than anybody else all night. But what does justice actually mean here? We all saw that for the rest of the game, DW wasn't allowed to breathe on anyone. Duke had control of the game, and it was clear that they were going to maintain their composure and hold on comfortably. The more I think about it, the more impressed I am with the way this game was managed. As Feld wrote, it's the toughest type of game to officiate. From a play-calling perspective, I don't think anyone would put this one in the pantheon, but from a game management perspective, the crew gets an A, even though it looks to many like they deserved a D or worse.

I am aware of the impending flames, and I am ready.

Go Duke.

captmojo
01-25-2008, 09:57 PM
It seems as if this current crop of Gobblers have devolved into a flock of turkeys.

Ain't turkeys some mighty tasty critters? :p

ugadevil
01-25-2008, 10:25 PM
There's a reason that UVA fans treat Va. Tech fans like they're dumb as dirt. It's because they are!

dukegirlinsc
01-25-2008, 10:25 PM
It seems as if this current crop of Gobblers have devolved into a flock of turkeys.

Ain't turkeys some mighty tasty critters? :p

MMMM friedddd turkey.

dukegirlinsc
01-25-2008, 10:26 PM
VT just keeps making themselves look bad, imo.
The students, the players, the fans, THE COACHES, even the coaches for christ's sake.

Lost a lot of respect for that program after the last 30 or so hours.

kdevilsk212
01-25-2008, 10:52 PM
It's actually not even worth discussing V Tech anymore. They embarassed their school last night. They'll do it again soon. Their athletes are only slightly more developmentally disabled than the rest of their redneck student body. It's basically a four year community college for those interested in the landscaping and custodial arts. And as far as basketball goes, they're entirely irrelevant.

For any V-Tech fans perusing this thread:
Your team's best-case scenario is remaining on the NIT bubble. Lose with some dignity. And please stop trying to spell words like "hypocrasy" (sic). You can hate Duke all you want, but leave the English language alone. Unlike Duke, it can't defend itself by blowing you out at home.

I_am_a_Blue_Devil
01-25-2008, 10:58 PM
I loved all the banners that they have hanging from the rafters. They not only have a banner for making, that right, JUST MAKING the tournament last year, but also for NIT second round apperances as well. I was giving my VT buddy some good ribbing about that.

Devilsfan
01-25-2008, 11:26 PM
To think the nation was in your court. So what do you do? Pick poster "boys" allen and washington to represent them on natioal tv. Great PR. Way to go Sether.

shadowfax336
01-25-2008, 11:43 PM
Watching a game where Vtech admittedly showed a lack of class, and then taking a look at a fan message board which (as a rule) is not the place to find the great intellectual minds of a University is not a great grounds for mass insulting Vtech as a university. And even if it was, the insult is still not necessary or productive. Something along the lines of "if you don't have something nice to say...." comes to mind

feldspar
01-26-2008, 01:23 AM
A plethora of really, really astute comments

Well said, cto. A lot of points I hadn't thought of yet, put in better terms than I ever could have.

feldspar
01-26-2008, 01:34 AM
It's actually not even worth discussing V Tech anymore. They embarassed their school last night. They'll do it again soon. Their athletes are only slightly more developmentally disabled than the rest of their redneck student body. It's basically a four year community college for those interested in the landscaping and custodial arts. And as far as basketball goes, they're entirely irrelevant.

For any V-Tech fans perusing this thread:
Your team's best-case scenario is remaining on the NIT bubble. Lose with some dignity. And please stop trying to spell words like "hypocrasy" (sic). You can hate Duke all you want, but leave the English language alone. Unlike Duke, it can't defend itself by blowing you out at home.

And, might I say, you're doing an equally masterful job representing your institution of higher learning.

Lulu
01-26-2008, 01:50 AM
ok, so I'm not going to read too much into this, but I found it interesting. yesterday (and earlier today) the espn video recap of the game online was the same as sportscenter: they basically showed one "normal" play and then focused entirely on deron washington, showing about every play where he bumped, flailed, or was otherwise trying to stir up trouble. as of now, that same video link leads to a recap of the game that doesn't even mention deron once.

I can't even say that I care, but I just find it curious. Did ESPN do this in their own self-interest for some reason (slandering Washington? fear of hurting their own ratings in some way)? Because they didn't want to reward (or to be seen as rewarding) such behavior with excessive air time? Because no one cares??? Like I said, I don't know that I care one bit, but just found it odd.

btw, I know it's the same link because I bookmarked the page wanting to show the recap to a friend later. obviously, that didn't work.

Lavabe
01-26-2008, 06:42 AM
This one makes me litterally laugh out loud


"Subject: We just have to realize
Posted by: bubbavt1 on Fri Jan 25 2008 11:03:10 AM
Message:


That our high academic standards keeps us from recruiting the getting
star athletes that Duke gets. "

This is a common lament here in Atlanta as well, at least with GaTech fans. I don't agree with them, but I believe I can explain the logic here. They tend to repeat themselves in saying that in terms of the number of majors offered, GaTech is SO geared towards science/engineering/architecture, they simply cannot get many student athletes. If you're a student at GT, you can't avoid the tough courses in those departments. The thought is that most top athletes can't perform academically in such a system. On the other hand, Duke has more liberal arts&sciences offerings, and fewer engineering-like majors. So Duke can always get a student athlete who doesn't want to take the same tough engineering-like courses.

Please correct me Jason and others if I deviate from the logic I hear in Atlanta.

I don't know that VaTech fans are using the same logic, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Cheers,
Lavabe

devildeac
01-26-2008, 06:51 AM
ok, so I'm not going to read too much into this, but I found it interesting. yesterday (and earlier today) the espn video recap of the game online was the same as sportscenter: they basically showed one "normal" play and then focused entirely on deron washington, showing about every play where he bumped, flailed, or was otherwise trying to stir up trouble. as of now, that same video link leads to a recap of the game that doesn't even mention deron once.

I can't even say that I care, but I just find it curious. Did ESPN do this in their own self-interest for some reason (slandering Washington? fear of hurting their own ratings in some way)? Because they didn't want to reward (or to be seen as rewarding) such behavior with excessive air time? Because no one cares??? Like I said, I don't know that I care one bit, but just found it odd.

btw, I know it's the same link because I bookmarked the page wanting to show the recap to a friend later. obviously, that didn't work.

check out the front page and their youtube link to washington's low-lights from the game-and their comments of his antics.

Papa John
01-26-2008, 07:03 AM
It's actually not even worth discussing V Tech anymore. They embarassed their school last night. They'll do it again soon. Their athletes are only slightly more developmentally disabled than the rest of their redneck student body. It's basically a four year community college for those interested in the landscaping and custodial arts. And as far as basketball goes, they're entirely irrelevant.

For any V-Tech fans perusing this thread:
Your team's best-case scenario is remaining on the NIT bubble. Lose with some dignity. And please stop trying to spell words like "hypocrasy" (sic). You can hate Duke all you want, but leave the English language alone. Unlike Duke, it can't defend itself by blowing you out at home.

If it "isn't worth discussing VTech anymore," then why all the venom and vitriol? And if you're going to throw grammatical stones in glass houses, please make sure to use spell check yourself (embarrassed has two r's)...

Virginia Tech is a wonderful academic institution, for cryin' out loud... Next play...

whereinthehellami
01-26-2008, 07:38 AM
Couple things. First VT is trying to build a basketball program. They have a ways to go. They are a work in progress but have had some success against the big boys, Duke and UNC. That is a good thing for all parties involved. Second the VT fanbase will always remember Duke and UNC as the schools that were against their inclusion into the ACC. VT is a good school with a beautiful campus. They have laot of pride about their University. I can see a time when their basketball program is better than their football program.

I remember when they first came into the conference and everyone said that they were bringing a second rate football team and next to nothing in the other sports. The prevalent thinking on the message boards were that Duke and UNC would beat the Hokies in football before the Hokies would beat them in basketball. That has not happened and that is a tribute to VT.

whereinthehellami
01-26-2008, 08:03 AM
I thought I heard "Keep in Paulus". Well, they got what they wished for and he played pretty darn well.

The chant was "Teabag Paulus" and it was in repsonse to this picture from the game last year where almost all of Deron jumped over Paulus.

http://subscr.techsideline.com/news_archive/showArticle-3436.php

Forumers discussing chant (http://www.techsideline.com/message_board/basketball/2008/January/24/280317.php).

Cavlaw
01-26-2008, 09:29 AM
I'm not sure what the justification for disparaging an entire university based on the comments of a few fans on a message board is. God forbid anyone judge Duke based on a handful of posts here on a bad day (or worse, any number of the less well-monitored Duke fan sites).

hondoheel
01-26-2008, 10:02 AM
Almost as bad as The Devils Den.

ArtVandelay
01-26-2008, 11:51 AM
Seriously. Back off Va Tech, people. I, for one, do think DBR was a little over the top. I'm not sure why Coleman Collins was included in that list - his dad died during the season like 2 yrs ago, for christ's sake. Anyone care to enlighten me? As for Allen - way too soon to string him up for that one incident.

Now Washington - yes, he plays dirty and chippy. Lots of unnecessary shoulder bumps and such. BUT - I do think he;s gotten a bum rap on some of the big things. Like the kick to Melcho - I still think was pretty accidental. Similarly with the intentional foul on Singler the other night. The little undercut on D-Marc was more ambiguous. He might've been trying to get out of his way, though.

Regardless, I would ease up on them a bit. They did play a little dirty, but it wasn't so bad that all of this bashing is necessary, IMO. And I don't want to say that the shooting gives them carte blanche to be a-holes, but their school HAS been through a lot.

captmojo
01-26-2008, 12:01 PM
Seriously. Back off Va Tech, people. I, for one, do think DBR was a little over the top. I'm not sure why Coleman Collins was included in that list - his dad died during the season like 2 yrs ago, for christ's sake. Anyone care to enlighten me? As for Allen - way too soon to string him up for that one incident.

Now Washington - yes, he plays dirty and chippy. Lots of unnecessary shoulder bumps and such. BUT - I do think he;s gotten a bum rap on some of the big things. Like the kick to Melcho - I still think was pretty accidental. Similarly with the intentional foul on Singler the other night. The little undercut on D-Marc was more ambiguous. He might've been trying to get out of his way, though.

Regardless, I would ease up on them a bit. They did play a little dirty, but it wasn't so bad that all of this bashing is necessary, IMO. And I don't want to say that the shooting gives them carte blanche to be a-holes, but their school HAS been through a lot.

Yeah. What he said. I think they should be Nifonged. :(

Seriously, Washington was the problem that night and he deserved more than what he got. He probably should be minding his manners tonight in Boston. I believe there's a few there that won't put up with such foolishness. I hope the exposure taught him to behave.

77devil
01-26-2008, 10:40 PM
Almost as bad as The Devils Den.

But never as bad as Inside Carolina,