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redick4pres
01-24-2008, 07:40 PM
I believe wholeheartedly that he is definitely the dirtiest player in the conference. Any thoughts?

dukegirlinsc
01-24-2008, 07:42 PM
I believe wholeheartedly that he is definitely the dirtiest player in the conference. Any thoughts?

After tonight, I'm down 100%.

Cali-Duke
01-24-2008, 07:52 PM
add his kick to lee's face

easily dirtiest player

MikeS
01-24-2008, 07:53 PM
This is the first game I wish that John Cheney was coaching instead of K.

CrazyCat
01-24-2008, 07:54 PM
Any my vote to the list. That dude is just filthy.

MikeS
01-24-2008, 07:57 PM
Send in that guy at the end of the bench who doesn't play, not Davidson but some other guy just to knock him around a little.

Karl Beem
01-24-2008, 07:58 PM
The worst punk.

Schwarz
01-24-2008, 08:01 PM
"Deron Washington is a terrific young man." -- Len Elmore

Karl Beem
01-24-2008, 08:03 PM
"Deron Washington is a terrific young man." -- Len Elmore

What a condemnation!:D

redick4pres
01-24-2008, 08:08 PM
Yeah, if he is a nice young man, what does Len think of guys like Gerald and Scheyer? They're on the same level as God? LOL What an idiot!

dukegirlinsc
01-24-2008, 08:09 PM
"Deron Washington is a terrific young man." -- Len Elmore
LOLLLLLLL

Constantstrain 81
01-24-2008, 08:12 PM
Maybe he is just being polite, but Deron W. was deliberately dirty the entire game. When I say dirty, I don't necessarily mean that he was trying to hurt someone (although he could have on several instances), I mean that he was pushing, bumping, faking, grabbing, fouling, etc. the entire night. I can't believe he lasted as long as he did.

Seth Greenberg and his antics are not much better. Complain on the close calls yet, Seth and his players even complain and question obvious calls.

If I am calling the game, I take Deron Washington aside very early and get him in line. If he doesn't get in line, he should foul out early (with good reason). He was a menace out there.

wilko
01-24-2008, 08:16 PM
"Deron Washington is a terrific young man." -- Len Elmore

Elmore isnt gonna Slander him on national TV and open himself up for a lawsuit. He was harping on his "emotional play" and it getting the better of him. so I guess he was trying to be balanced.

Im no Elmore fan... but so far this year he seems to have dropped his total Duke negativity schtik. He is tolerable right now. I couldnt say that in years past.

redick4pres
01-24-2008, 08:16 PM
Maybe he is just being polite, but Deron W. was deliberately dirty the entire game. When I say dirty, I don't necessarily mean that he was trying to hurt someone (although he could have on several instances), I mean that he was pushing, bumping, faking, grabbing, fouling, etc. the entire night. I can't believe he lasted as long as he did.

Seth Greenberg and his antics are not much better. Complain on the close calls yet, Seth and his players even complain and question obvious calls.

If I am calling the game, I take Deron Washington aside very early and get him in line. If he doesn't get in line, he should foul out early (with good reason). He was a menace out there.


I couldn't agree more!

_Gary
01-24-2008, 08:21 PM
Add my vote as well. Washington is the dirtiest player I've seen in a long, long time. He should have been hit with a "T" when he undercut DeMarcus early in the 2nd half. That could have caused serious, serious damage and I don't blame Nelson for being upset. I'm not talking about the hard foul late in the game where DeMarcus got a technical himself. I'm speaking of the earlier play where Nelson had left the floor and Washington clearly moved in to undercut him while he was way up in the air. That was a dangerous and dirty play, and it should have been scrutinized a lot more by the announcers. Instead, they inexplicably glossed over it.

Gary

DU82
01-24-2008, 08:21 PM
Elmore isnt gonna Slander him on national TV and open himself up for a lawsuit. He was harping on his "emotional play" and it getting the better of him. so I guess he was trying to be balanced.

Im no Elmore fan... but so far this year he seems to have dropped his total Duke negativity schtik. He is tolerable right now. I couldnt say that in years past.

It was also nice for a change to have the color commentator actually commentating on the game he was attending for the most part, instead of fifty other things.

wiscodevil
01-24-2008, 08:22 PM
listening to len elmore tonight, i was literally embarrased for him.
btw, duke was called for more fouls and vt shot more free throws.

bhd28
01-24-2008, 08:28 PM
The guy is a whiny little twit, isn't he?
I guess it is a way to get noticed, as they didn't stop talking about him all night.

About the officiating: That is a group of officials I absolutely HATE! Started back in about 2003. The fat one... he made about 80% of the calls against Duke. Most were legit, some not, but it just irked me that somehow HE was the one who apparently saw everything Duke did wrong, even when not in position to make the call. I even saw one of the other refs looking askance at him a couple of times. Ugh... very few people I wouldn't stop to help change a tire. Him, I would just stop and laugh at him... especially if it was raining. :o

heath_harshman4
01-24-2008, 08:29 PM
I think Len was trying to make up for what he was saying earlier in the game. He kept, not bashing, but speaking negatively ( OH NO) of Washington's flopping and his antics. Then he made a nice block and I think he was over-doing it by saying he's a nice guy and trying to make up for somewhat bashing him for the beginning of the 2nd half.

77devil
01-24-2008, 08:29 PM
Highly likely, and he's a major flopper.

heath_harshman4
01-24-2008, 08:30 PM
The guy is a whiny little twit, isn't he?
I guess it is a way to get noticed, as they didn't stop talking about him all night.

About the officiating: That is a group of officials I absolutely HATE! Started back in about 2003. The fat one... he made about 80% of the calls against Duke. Most were legit, some not, but it just irked me that somehow HE was the one who apparently saw everything Duke did wrong, even when not in position to make the call. I even saw one of the other refs looking askance at him a couple of times. Ugh... very few people I wouldn't stop to help change a tire. Him, I would just stop and laugh at him... especially if it was raining. :o

Lets call fouls where if you are beyond the paint and make contact its a foul, but if you try and clothes-line a guy when you are down by 20, call a technical on the dunker...yeah, good strategy idiotic zebras...geesh

weezie
01-24-2008, 08:31 PM
Deeee-ron will be quite a hit at the Portsmouth Invitational.

Duvall
01-24-2008, 08:32 PM
Honestly, I think it helped Duke tonight. If Washington had spent less energy on gamesmanship and more on the game, the Hokies might have put up more of a fight.

DoubleDuke Dad
01-24-2008, 08:32 PM
I don’t what game Washington thought he was playing, but it sure wasn’t basketball. The refs almost let the game get out of hand. They should have T’d him up a second time long before he finally fouled out. Not only was he flopping on every play but he was deliberately trying to provoke the Duke players with his cheap shots and antics. I also blame the coach. He should have taken Washington out of the game and read him the riot act. Of course that is assuming he didn’t condone his actions. There was no excuse for Greenberg allowing Washington to continue his shenanigans.

Ben63
01-24-2008, 08:33 PM
Ryan Reid at FSU isnt much metter but Washington is the worst.

weezie
01-24-2008, 08:33 PM
The fat one... he made about 80% of the calls against Duke.....somehow HE was the one who apparently saw everything Duke did wrong, even when not in position to make the call. I even saw one of the other refs looking askance at him a couple of times. Ugh... very few people I wouldn't stop to help change a tire. Him, I would just stop and laugh at him... especially if it was raining. :o


Seriously, you aren't referring to our old pal Karl "I'm A Tool" Hesse, are ye?

mgtr
01-24-2008, 08:39 PM
Hopefully, somebody, not a Duke player, will take Washington out. Maybe FSU, they are about on a par with him. It is sad, because he definitely has some talent. It is also sad because his coach allows him to get away with it. He will end up playing in Europe, I don't think he would survive in the NBA.

Surfsideron
01-24-2008, 08:39 PM
The kid has plenty of talent and could be a top-echelon player but he plays like a fool. He is dirty and deliberately so.

The refs were an abomination. They should have called a timeout early in the game and got the coaches together and straighten that mess out. Allowing those kids, on both teams, to have to go through that was criminal. Those refs should be reprimanded. The game may have really gotten ugly had not K slowed down the game with 10 minutes to go. I don't think tempers could have been held in check much longer. Even Scheyer was getting pissed!

Good game by the Dukies though. Singler broke open the game early in the 2nd half when he scored 8-10 points in a 2-3 minute span. And our guards, Paulus and Smith, did a great job in protecting the ball tonight.

ugadevil
01-24-2008, 08:40 PM
I don't wish injury on a player, but sometimes it's hard not to on Washington. He's always been one to do whatever it takes to take out the opposing player and he's shocked when he's called on it. If Deron gets caught sometime by an opposing player who doesn't have much to play for, everyone else on the court better duck. It's one of the few times I wish Elton Brown was back at UVa.:cool:

kcduke75
01-24-2008, 08:45 PM
The undercut on Marky after the foul call should have been reviewed and he should have been ejected - no place for that.
Unfortunately, appears on par with the jerk from Wake that now makes a living in the NBA in Charlotte. Sheesh

_Gary
01-24-2008, 08:47 PM
I didn't dvr the game, but for those that have I wish you'd look at the play I mentioned. I'd love to hear some other thoughts on that particular situation, because it got only one quick replay. But I swear it could have done serious damage to DeMarcus - and it was done deliberately! Of all the chippy and dirty things Washington engaged in during the night, that one was the worst in my book. You can't undercut guys when they are in the air and helpless.

Gary

Patrick Yates
01-24-2008, 08:49 PM
Towards the end, the refs were just rolling their eyes at Washington, even on some plays where he may have legitimately been fould. After tonight, he better get used to it.

I mean, how dumb can a team be? The game after a teammate gets ejected for making contact with a ref, and Washington and VT were trying that junk? They probably got on the wrong side of the refs for the season tonight. At least, I sure hope so.

Patrick Yates

Devil in the Blue Dress
01-24-2008, 08:49 PM
"Deron Washington is a terrific young man." -- Len Elmore
Each time Len made that positive statement, he was leading into pointing out that Washington needs to develop some self control and quit wasting his time in the game with such inappropriate behavior. Throughout the game Len repeatedly pointed out the problems with Washington's play.

norduck
01-24-2008, 08:50 PM
Any my vote to the list. That dude is just filthy.

and his "John Holmes" facial hair is sickening

arnie
01-24-2008, 08:52 PM
This ultimately comes from the thug coach at VPI - I will never understand why they are in the ACC as they bring nothing to the table.

Patrick Yates
01-24-2008, 08:52 PM
I didn't dvr the game, but for those that have I wish you'd look at the play I mentioned. I'd love to hear some other thoughts on that particular situation, because it got only one quick replay. But I swear it could have done serious damage to DeMarcus - and it was done deliberately! Of all the chippy and dirty things Washington engaged in during the night, that one was the worst in my book. You can't undercut guys when they are in the air and helpless.

Gary

When I watched it at full speed, I agreed with you. On the replay, I thought that Washington was trying to duck out of Demarcus's way, and his rear unfortunately got in the way. As a HS player whose job it was to foul, hardish, I have stuck my butt out a few times, and I don't think that is what happened. He could have done a better job getting out of the way, but I don't think it was intentional.

Patrick Yates

stals
01-24-2008, 08:53 PM
It seems to me that ever since V-Tech has joined the ACC that a major part of Greenberg's tactics against better teams, particularly Duke (which may be deemed a bit "soft"), is to let his guys play as rough as the refs let them. I think he probably condones, if not instructs, Washington's style of play.

Tonight, Duke mostly kept its composure and the best team won easily. However, the refs were very inconsistent and almost lost control of the game.

_Gary
01-24-2008, 08:55 PM
When I watched it at full speed, I agreed with you. On the replay, I thought that Washington was trying to duck out of Demarcus's way, and his rear unfortunately got in the way. As a HS player whose job it was to foul, hardish, I have stuck my butt out a few times, and I don't think that is what happened. He could have done a better job getting out of the way, but I don't think it was intentional.

Hmmm. I'd love to see the play again because to me on the replay it looked like he intentionally stuck his butt into DeMarcus when he could have easily avoided him. Again, I'd love to see the play again, because that one troubles me more than any of the others (and there were plenty to be troubled about).

Gary

mapei
01-24-2008, 08:55 PM
Personally, I am unfamiliar with John Holmes's facial hair.

Agree about DW tonight. It surprised me, because he wasn't like that in in the 3 or 4 summer league games I saw at all. He was very much a regular guy, albeit super-talented. But tonight, he seemed to be trying to stir something up, often in a really petty, immature way.

dukegirlinsc
01-24-2008, 08:59 PM
listening to len elmore tonight, i was literally embarrased for him.
btw, duke was called for more fouls and vt shot more free throws.

but OH MY GOD, duke gets all the calls.

heath_harshman4
01-24-2008, 09:00 PM
Each time Len made that positive statement, he was leading into pointing out that Washington needs to develop some self control and quit wasting his time in the game with such inappropriate behavior. Throughout the game Len repeatedly pointed out the problems with Washington's play.

he still said it...regardless..

UNC 's fan base is smart and very knowledgeable about basketball. But they are ugly.

See, you can't say one thing, then somewhat contradict it with your next sentence.

BRING BACK VITALE...wow...sad ain't it?

Methodistman
01-24-2008, 09:04 PM
I have 2 sons who are 10 and 8, and they talked about what a "cheap" and "dirty" player Washington was. In particular, if you watched him after a foul or out-of-bounds play, it seemed he went out of his way to "shoulder" one of our guys (especially Paulus) as he just "walked" across the court.

I thought it was hilarious when in the first half Elmore tried to argue that one VT foul was actually a "clean block" until he saw the reply - and even then he tried to say that the officials couldn't have had the benefit of the angle that he had, and that although they made the right call, from their own angle they should have called it a block. Whatever . . . what else can you expect from a "twerp"

Devilsfan
01-24-2008, 09:08 PM
It's a toss up between Wash and Allen. Boy, Seth really has a couple of thugs on his team and he seems to sanction their play. Not to mention, that the mother who raised this clean cut, upstanding citizen was the focus of the tv camera guys for most of the game.

Highlander
01-24-2008, 09:08 PM
The undercut on Marky after the foul call should have been reviewed and he should have been ejected - no place for that.
Unfortunately, appears on par with the jerk from Wake that now makes a living in the NBA in Charlotte. Sheesh

Think you're talking about Chris Paul. He's in New Orleans (not Charlotte) averaging a double double for the Hornets.

And yes, he was dirty. Don't know if he still is, but he's one of the best PG's in the NBA regardless.

As for Washington, he was a busy guy tonight:
- gives a brush to Paulus early in the game, then exaggerates the brushback
- tries the same move again on Henderson while Duke's in the huddle
- obviously flopped at least 4-5 times on defense trying to draw the foul
- takes a swing in the direction of Singler after a no-call in frustration
- undercuts Nelson on a layup attempt
- hard foul on Nelson again a few minutes later on another dunk

The guy wears his emotions on his sleeve and plays chippy. He tries to get his opponents to lose their cool and give him an advantage. Duke showed a ton of self control tonight to not get into it with the guy. I'm disappointed that Nelson gave in, because I guarantee that Nelson's T was exactly the reaction Washington had been fishing for all game. But I can't blame him considering Washington's undercut of him a few plays earlier.

devildeac
01-24-2008, 09:21 PM
I donít what game Washington thought he was playing, but it sure wasnít basketball. The refs almost let the game get out of hand. They should have Tíd him up a second time long before he finally fouled out. Not only was he flopping on every play but he was deliberately trying to provoke the Duke players with his cheap shots and antics. I also blame the coach. He should have taken Washington out of the game and read him the riot act. Of course that is assuming he didnít condone his actions. There was no excuse for Greenberg allowing Washington to continue his shenanigans.

Greenberg take a player out for thuggery? ya gotta be kidding me!!

dukestheheat
01-24-2008, 09:23 PM
highlander,

washington is a punk. i know that sounds like judgement, but ok, it sure is.

dth.

Uncle Drew
01-24-2008, 09:23 PM
First let me say that I wont be voting for man of the match because tonights win was a TEAM effort. EVERY player that hit the floor made a good shot, pass, defensive play etc. This was the best team effort I've seen from Duke all season long and in quite a while.

Second I want to say that once again it was good to see Duke play with as much class as possible when yet another team of thugs tried to punk Duke. There were so many incidents in this game where tempers could have flared and gotten out of hand. Truth be told I think VT intentionally played that way under orders of their coach. We're all used to seeing teams play Duke physical at one time or another. In my opinion VT was trying to get under every Duke players skin, get them flustered, get them to cross the line and perhaps get a technical or thrown out of the game. Singler kept his cool, Nelson did a remarkable job considering the mugging he received all night long, and Paulus played to the crowds boos and played pretty much mistake free basketball.

Washington IS the dirtiest player in the ACC right now and the dirtiest player I've seen in college basketball in quite a while. (Regardless of conference.) Truth be told back in my playing days I loved playing against that type of player. (You learn to play dirty when need be on play grounds, but it should have no place in organized basketball.....I have stitches from a knife wound in my side to show for my adventures.) While the physical and verbal thing gets under a lot of players skin, I knew very well if they were allowed to do it and get away with it I could too. The Washington's of the world are used to dishing it out, it's part of their game but they really hate taking it; especially worse than they dished. I'm glad Duke showed poise and class the whole game. (Nelson's technical was NOT deserved and if anything, should have been a double T.) But when a player does activities that are aimed at frustrating, even injuring the opposing player it's an open invitation to dole out some pain when the refs aren't looking. Granted I played at a smaller non-televised school, but there are plenty of things a player can do that look non-intentional and make a player think twice before doing Washington type things. I know someone is going to say sinking to their level is even worse than being the offender. But you can only take so much if the refs aren't going to take notice before you have to meet fire with fire. Again I'm glad Duke didn't resort to such activities. But after his previous incident with Melchinoni it's hard to believe Washington is a "fine young man". And it's also hard to believe the style of play isn't an intentional directive from Greenburg. While I didn't think their suspended player deserved a two game suspension at the time. After seeing their style of play tonight I can't help but applaud the decision and think half their team doesn't deserve to sit a few games as well.


The VT team is low class, their coach is tactless and they are a disgrace to the program. After the FSU game I thought we'd seen the lowest form of scummy basketball to be played this season. But the crowd, players and coach at VT made FSU look like choir boys tonight!

mgtr
01-24-2008, 09:28 PM
Seth Greenberg is a low class guy. He recruits thugs, much like UConn, and tells them to play tough. Forturnately for us, class tells. DeRon Washington shoudl be warned off, to use the English expression. Talented but flawed. A good coach would straighten him out in about 5 seconds.

Highlander
01-24-2008, 09:38 PM
highlander,

washington is a punk. i know that sounds like judgement, but ok, it sure is.

dth.

I don't disagree.

Devil in the Blue Dress
01-24-2008, 09:39 PM
he still said it...regardless..

UNC 's fan base is smart and very knowledgeable about basketball. But they are ugly.

See, you can't say one thing, then somewhat contradict it with your next sentence.

BRING BACK VITALE...wow...sad ain't it?
I guess I was attempting to view Len's comment in context. What would you have said instead?

DoubleDuke Dad
01-24-2008, 09:56 PM
How is this for irony (from the AP recap of the game)?

"I thought they knocked us back in the second half and we did not respond," coach Seth Greenberg said.

ugadevil
01-24-2008, 10:19 PM
I just watched ESPN's highlights on College Gamenight from the game. For the majority of the time, they talked about Deron Washington and how he was basically an embarassment to his team who was a distraction to the game. Good to know that Karl Ravech didn't mind calling out the pathetic behavior of Du-ron.

Lavabe
01-24-2008, 10:26 PM
Good to know that Karl Ravech didn't mind calling out the pathetic behavior of Du-ron.

Uh oh ... I'm now having an 80s flashback ... Duron Duron?

SORRY. Back to the thread.

Yes, for this year and throughout his career. Deron Washington is the dirtiest player in the ACC.

Lavabe

Uncle Drew
01-24-2008, 10:31 PM
I just watched ESPN's highlights on College Gamenight from the game. For the majority of the time, they talked about Deron Washington and how he was basically an embarassment to his team who was a distraction to the game. Good to know that Karl Ravech didn't mind calling out the pathetic behavior of Du-ron.


What? ESPN didn't focus on Nelson getting a technical resulting in disqualification? They didn't review all of Duke's fouls to make sure they were indeed fouls? They didn't praise Washington and call him a "fine young man" for getting under the skin of those evil Duke players?


I just watched the recap on Sportscenter, they showed a replay of the Melchioni incident and the other announcer said, "kind of like Laettner"!

On a side note from my previous post and watching a replay of where Nelson got undercut. I know dirty play when I see it, because I have resorted to it. THAT was TOTALLY intentional and he WAS trying to injure Nelson, I should know I've taken more than one players legs out from under him. (That sounds really bad, but not every game is at your local YMCA.) There is no reason for Washington to make any contact with the player in that situation other than hoping to upend Nelsons legs. Again I'm glad Duke kept their poise, but Washington is a thug and disgrace to the game of basketball itself, much the less college or ACC basketball.

heath_harshman4
01-24-2008, 10:35 PM
I guess I was attempting to view Len's comment in context. What would you have said instead?

If I were Len? I'm guessing that's who you mean, I got a little confused.

If I were Len I would've said that for the good and athletic player he is, he needs to be a SENIOR leader and take control of his team with his play and composure, not his antics.

I DO NOT KNOW DUH-RON, but from what I've seen, I wouldn't think hes a great kid.

BigTedder
01-24-2008, 10:42 PM
The undercut on Marky after the foul call should have been reviewed and he should have been ejected - no place for that.
Unfortunately, appears on par with the jerk from Wake that now makes a living in the NBA in Charlotte. Sheesh

I agree, if he was still in college, Washington would be Ghandi compared to him...he was a rotten apple...just another reason to not go see the cats.

heath_harshman4
01-24-2008, 10:47 PM
I agree, if he was still in college, Washington would be Ghandi compared to him...he was a rotten apple...just another reason to not go see the cats.

BREAKING NEWS:

CHRIS PAUL PLAYS FOR THE NEW ORLEANS HORNETS!!!!

and they, as a team, arent bad. not to mention Paul, despite his rep, is one hell of a PG.

2001dukechamps
01-24-2008, 10:49 PM
Yes, Deron Washington is. Infact this is the only time I wasn't mad at one of our guys getting a T(Demarcus) because that POS deserved it. Markie and Gerald would have took turns bench pressing him. IMO he is the dirtiest player in ACC history.

Kimist
01-24-2008, 10:59 PM
I don’t what game Washington thought he was playing, but it sure wasn’t basketball. The refs almost let the game get out of hand. They should have T’d him up a second time long before he finally fouled out. Not only was he flopping on every play but he was deliberately trying to provoke the Duke players with his cheap shots and antics. I also blame the coach. He should have taken Washington out of the game and read him the riot act. Of course that is assuming he didn’t condone his actions. There was no excuse for Greenberg allowing Washington to continue his shenanigans.

Good grief - I've been to games in Wallace Wade Stadium that had less contact occurring than at the game tonight in Blacksburg!

I agree that Washington is a real menace to be on the court, and Duke is just lucky that Nelson was not "removed" for the season. For the life of me I cannot understand how the zebras allowed such antics to continue. One would like to think the Hokie coach would exert some control....but that is a real pipe dream. (Wasn't he the coach that felt "threatened" in Cameron?).

Of course, Len Elmore does seem to want to suggest ACC POTW or something for DW.

After this game I almost need to recant some of the thoughts I've had about HansTravel. A couple of good "contacts" into the cheap seats by #50 might do wonders for Mr. Washington.

k

Uncle Drew
01-24-2008, 11:08 PM
"Good grief - I've been to games in Wallace Wade Stadium that had less contact occurring than at the game tonight in Blacksburg!"

Is that a commentary about tonights basketball game or the state of the Duke football program over the last 25 years? :D

Kimist
01-24-2008, 11:17 PM
"Good grief - I've been to games in Wallace Wade Stadium that had less contact occurring than at the game tonight in Blacksburg!"

Is that a commentary about tonights basketball game or the state of the Duke football program over the last 25 years? :D

Unfortunately, a bit of both! :o

k

BigTedder
01-24-2008, 11:18 PM
I agree, if he was still in college, Washington would be Ghandi compared to him...he was a rotten apple...just another reason to not go see the cats.

I was referring to Dudley from BC and Eric Williams from Wake....take it easy!

SeattleIrish
01-24-2008, 11:25 PM
"Deron Washington is a terrific young man." -- Len Elmore

Isn't it possible that Deron Washington can be both a "terrific young man" and "the dirtiest player in the ACC"?

Perhaps he's a really good guy off the court (he did go into the Duke locker room after last year's game and apologized to Lee - not sure if that was forced on him by his coach, but K had some nice things to say about Washington, IIRC) and just incredibly "chippy" on the court.

Perhaps I have a soft spot for him because he plays basketball a lot like my brother did, "back in the day". My brother was one of the chippiest players I've ever watched, constantly up with the elbows, out with the knees, butt out on a driving player - - - always just short of throwing a punch and getting kicked out. However, brotherly-love aside, he was/is also a wonderful person away from the competitive hardcourt.

So...I maintain that Elmore's quote might not be inconsistent with a "HELLYES!" response to the leading subject line.

s.i.

p.s. - does anyone remember Eisenhour (not sure of the spelling) from Georgia Tech a few years back? That kid played EXACTLY like my brother, which frustrated the heck out of ACC players - he died before graduating, I believe from cancer, and everyone who knew him had nothing but love and admiration for him.

DavidBenAkiva
01-25-2008, 12:10 AM
Could it be that Washington just really hates Duke and doesn't play like that against other teams?

Also, I find it funny that there was that youtube video by Clemson fans about Duke players flopping. Now, here's Washington making a mockery of the word "flop." Maybe he saw the youtube video and decided that he could coax some fouls out of the refs.

And one final thing, that play where he ducked under Nelson after the wistle had been called was easily the worst thing that he did all night. That could have been so much worse and Demarcus had every right to be upset. I blame the refs for not recognizing what Washington was trying to do and calling a horrible game from the start.

Time flies like an arrow
Fruit flies like a banana

CatfiveCane
01-25-2008, 12:18 AM
you guys are being a bit rough on Washington.

I'm not too sure I would call him the dirtiest player out there. Most of the things he did was annoying, stupid, or just lame. Besides the potential undercutting of Nelson (which looked more unintentional) I can't really recall him doing anything intentional to hurt a Duke player. The technical on Singler was really not intentional. Looks like his feet just got caught up with Singler's.

But with all his stupid antics... he really made himself look like a fool. flopping. trying to join Duke's huddle. Probably grabbing and pulling. But I wouldn't call that being "dirty". If the refs are going to let you get away with it....

Now if someone can show me where he intentionally tried to hurt a Duke player... that would be a different story.

MikeS
01-25-2008, 12:30 AM
Personally have played HS basketball I'd rather play against a dirty player than some annoying guy who flopps all the time. It really pisses you off, with a flopper and a guy who is all over you more than a guy who does a cheap shot. You don't really get bothered by a cheap shot but some guy annoying you can really piss you off. Best part is that this clown employs both elements.

HK Dukie
01-25-2008, 12:33 AM
Catfive, did you not see Duron intentionally take a swing at Singler? That is a play where if he actually made any contact with Singler, he would definately be suspended for the next game. Even if there was no contact, the act of taking a punch at someone is likely enough to justify a suspension.

I actually appreciated Duron's enthusiasm early in the game. He was playing as hard as he could. But he needs to learn the line of even basic sportsmanship, plus a little common sense. He lost the respect of many in the ACC and ended up hurting his own team which in the end is all the poetic justice we need.

Uncle Drew
01-25-2008, 12:54 AM
DBA said:
"Could it be that Washington just really hates Duke and doesn't play like that against other teams?"

You may be dead on about this, because he was the player who kicked Melchioni in the face a few years back and was forced (IMO) to apologize after the game. The thing that amazes me about a ton of ACC players and every team in the conference is HOW they play against Duke. Duke gets everyones best shot, we all know that, and they bring out the best and worst in opposing players. But how good would some of these teams be if they played every game as hard as they play against Duke? Maryland in particular gets sky high like they are the freakin' Lakers when they play Duke. If they brought the same intensity to every game upsets like the one over UNC last week wouldn't be upsets at all. It's not like the Duke game is the ONLY game these teams are seen on TV. But if you could get opposing teams to put on a Duke jersey every game some of these schools could win the national championship.

Devilsfan
01-25-2008, 02:07 AM
If coach Cut can recruit this kind of toughness we'll be bowling real soon.

kdevilsk212
01-25-2008, 02:27 AM
I think Len was trying to make up for what he was saying earlier in the game. He kept, not bashing, but speaking negatively ( OH NO) of Washington's flopping and his antics. Then he made a nice block and I think he was over-doing it by saying he's a nice guy and trying to make up for somewhat bashing him for the beginning of the 2nd half.

I agree with the above. Also, I don't know if Washington is the dirtiest player, but he is a total punk. The distinction is that, to me, a "dirty" player tugs your shirt, throws elbows behind the play, undercuts on rebounds (which D-Wash actually did do), or slugs you in the gingerplums ala Chris Paul-- whereas, a "punk" makes most of his mischief after the play or for the purpose of finessing the game in a non-physical manner. E.g. D-Wash wading into our huddle, cheap shots on inbounds plays, flopping, etc. For some reason I can respect a dirty player (a la Rodman), more than I can respect a punk... Both types will be on display in College Park.

Lulu
01-25-2008, 04:36 AM
When I watched it at full speed, I agreed with you. On the replay, I thought that Washington was trying to duck out of Demarcus's way, and his rear unfortunately got in the way. As a HS player whose job it was to foul, hardish, I have stuck my butt out a few times, and I don't think that is what happened. He could have done a better job getting out of the way, but I don't think it was intentional.

Patrick Yates

I really couldn't disagree more, and agree with the original poster. I've watched that play probably 15 times both at full speed and during the replay, and Washington was deliberately going after the legs. Yeah, he cowered a bit, but that's because he knew he was initiating contact and might take a leg or other body part to the head. Markie jumped, and he lept right in under him as fast as he could. I don't see any other way to see it; he wasn't even playing the shot or trying for good position. DeMarcus was rightfully mad.
And honestly, my initial impression right when it happened was that it probably wasn't intentional, but I wasn't necessarily focused on Deron and the replay completely convinced me otherwise.

Lulu
01-25-2008, 05:04 AM
...and oh, yeah, forgot to mention that the play was already dead above

ivduke
01-25-2008, 06:36 AM
Catfive, did you not see Duron intentionally take a swing at Singler? That is a play where if he actually made any contact with Singler, he would definately be suspended for the next game. Even if there was no contact, the act of taking a punch at someone is likely enough to justify a suspension.

I actually appreciated Duron's enthusiasm early in the game. He was playing as hard as he could. But he needs to learn the line of even basic sportsmanship, plus a little common sense. He lost the respect of many in the ACC and ended up hurting his own team which in the end is all the poetic justice we need.

The intentional foul on with Singler was not a punch. It was childish, it was theatrical, and it was absolutely unnecessary, and could have easily been a technical for showing up the refs...... but it wasn't a punch. He was acting like a two year old who didn't get his way, but out of all the plays to worry about---that isn't the one.

The undercut of Nelson is the one we should all be sending tape to the ACC headquarters about as it could have easily ruined what is turning into a magical season.

LIVE4BBALL
01-25-2008, 06:38 AM
From the Richmond Times Dispatch "Instead of just bouncing back and defending them hard, we were trying to pick fights," freshman point guard Hank Thorns said. "I think that's good for us as well. It shows aggressiveness and [that] we're not going to back down from nobody."

RelativeWays
01-25-2008, 06:52 AM
Washington was pretty terrible last night and in a way, I agree with Len Elmore. I can't speak for Washington's character off the court but he does have great athletic ability. Its a shame that its marred by by thuggish play.

I never really viewed Jared Dudley as thuggish, and that might be because last year he really wasn't as in your face as he was in 06, he had to carry BC with his scoring and for whatever reason, K seemed to really like him.

I don't dislike Len Elmore as much as others do but I think his biggest problem announcing is that he has a touch of Billy Packer disease. He'll focus on a call, play or particular issue in the game and yack about it over and over and over. He isn't quite as hateful as Packer, but he can come across as negative because of it. He's done it to other teams that aren't Duke and he's done it to teams that Duke is playing (and yes he's done it to Duke as well). My guess with Washington is that ESPN was banking on him making some highlight dunks or something. When all he had to offer was trips, shoves and undercuts, its almost like Elmore and Patrick were apologizing for him.

cspan37421
01-25-2008, 07:18 AM
some quotes from the Wash Post covg of the VT-Duke game indicate to me that the excessive physical play is exactly what Greenberg wants. Notice too how he projects the blame for physical play onto his opponent, while instilling a fist-fighting mentality in his players:

"You're not going to win a game like tonight if you're not tougher, a little bit more poised," Hokies Coach Seth Greenberg said. "I thought they knocked us back in the second half."

...
"The first half, we hit them back, and they didn't know what to do," point guard Hank Thorns said.
...

"We don't back down from nobody," Thorns said.
"In the second half, they hit us and we should have kept fighting," Thorns said.
...

and speaking of his players fouling out, getting intentional fouls, Greenberg said, probably with a wink and a smile, "They were a little frisky."

So what can you do, other than have someone on staff regularly sending in game tapes to the ACC offices?

slower
01-25-2008, 07:41 AM
you guys are being a bit rough on Washington.

I'm not too sure I would call him the dirtiest player out there. Most of the things he did was annoying, stupid, or just I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. lame. Besides the potential undercutting of Nelson (which looked more unintentional) I can't really recall him doing anything intentional to hurt a Duke player. The technical on Singler was really not intentional. Looks like his feet just got caught up with Singler's.

But with all his stupid antics... he really made himself look like a fool. flopping. trying to join Duke's huddle. Probably grabbing and pulling. But I wouldn't call that being "dirty". If the refs are going to let you get away with it....

Now if someone can show me where he intentionally tried to hurt a Duke player... that would be a different story.

He knew what he was doing. It's not that difficult to make your actions LOOK unintentional, but to still have a good idea of where to position yourself to "accidentally" trip or undercut somebody. I was watching the whole game in disbelief at what he got away with.

For those of you who go WAY back, maybe you'll agree when I say that I'd like to have seen Maurice Lucas in the post for us for just one night.

gotoguy
01-25-2008, 07:45 AM
Isn't it possible that Deron Washington can be both a "terrific young man" and "the dirtiest player in the ACC"?

Perhaps he's a really good guy off the court (he did go into the Duke locker room after last year's game and apologized to Lee - not sure if that was forced on him by his coach, but K had some nice things to say about Washington, IIRC) and just incredibly "chippy" on the court.

Perhaps I have a soft spot for him because he plays basketball a lot like my brother did, "back in the day". My brother was one of the chippiest players I've ever watched, constantly up with the elbows, out with the knees, butt out on a driving player - - - always just short of throwing a punch and getting kicked out. However, brotherly-love aside, he was/is also a wonderful person away from the competitive hardcourt.

So...I maintain that Elmore's quote might not be inconsistent with a "HELLYES!" response to the leading subject line.

s.i.

p.s. - does anyone remember Eisenhour (not sure of the spelling) from Georgia Tech a few years back? That kid played EXACTLY like my brother, which frustrated the heck out of ACC players - he died before graduating, I believe from cancer, and everyone who knew him had nothing but love and admiration for him.


Isenhour died from complications following a bone marrow transplant for acute leukemia. And he was a dirty player in the mold of Danny Meagher (our dirty player, bless him). Isenhour took a few cheap shots at the Devils at a game in Alexander, I think it was 2001. He singled out Dunleavey as I recall. Subsequently while trailing a play around half court, Isenhour was decked by forearm to the side of his head thrown by Carlos Boozer. The refs didn't see it and Isenhour's antics ceased for the remainder of the game.

whereinthehellami
01-25-2008, 07:50 AM
I think some of the comments about VT being a thug team are over the top. Washington lost his cool last night in a hyped environment and it showed, he looked immature. Other than him, i thought VT played Duke the way you have to play them to win when you're lacking in the talent department. You have to play tougher. Not dirtier but tougher. And it is fine line that can be crossed easily by 18 year olds being fueled by a charged crowd. The VT crowd was really into the game. But to say that Greenberg told them to punk Duke is a stretch in my mind.

vango
01-25-2008, 07:53 AM
I just watched ESPN's highlights on College Gamenight from the game. For the majority of the time, they talked about Deron Washington and how he was basically an embarassment to his team who was a distraction to the game. Good to know that Karl Ravech didn't mind calling out the pathetic behavior of Du-ron.

You are correct. While I wish the highlights were a little more about Duke winning than Washington's antics, I was glad to see that ESPN didn't take the posture that Duke baited him, or he was just responding to things the Duke players did, etc., b/c I felt that is what ESPN did with the FSU game highlights (though changing their tun some by SportsCenter's following morning telecast). They pretty much tore him (Washington) a new one on a national tv and made him look like a baffoon.

This kid is an amazing physical talent. He's a good basketball player. He just seems to be childish. For all I know he rescues puppies and feeds the homeless at Thanksgiving in his personal time but on the court he's really doing a dis-service to himself, his family (mother), teammates, and his school.

As for VT. Used to be a bit of a fan of them and all I really am exposed to is their football and basketball teams (so I do not want to indict the entire program) but considering what has gone on there with some of their players in those two sports both on the field and off it seems to me that they need to take a look at who they're bringing in there and what they're trying to do. Win at all costs? Dunno - but some of the behavior on the court from their players, off the court/field by some of their players, and by some of their fans (see JJ) makes a first class institution look low class.

Turtleboy
01-25-2008, 07:54 AM
Isn't it possible that Deron Washington can be both a "terrific young man" and "the dirtiest player in the ACC"?I don't see how you can pick and choose which particular behaviors constitute being a terrific young man. If he cheats on the court, he's a cheater. If he takes cheap shots on the court, he's a cheap shot artist. He's still the same guy after he showers and puts his civvies on.

And I'm guessing he's a punk as well, who wouldn't dream of undercutting Demarcus in a game of street ball. Nelson would break him in half.

GDT
01-25-2008, 07:59 AM
Washington lost his cool last night in a hyped environment and it showed, he looked immature.

I think immature is exactly the right word. But I can't remember a player being that out of control for an entire game before, which I think really reflects poorly on Greenberg.

CDu
01-25-2008, 08:20 AM
I don't see how you can pick and choose which particular behaviors constitute being a terrific young man. If he cheats on the court, he's a cheater. If he takes cheap shots on the court, he's a cheap shot artist. He's still the same guy after he showers and puts his civvies on.

And I'm guessing he's a punk as well, who wouldn't dream of undercutting Demarcus in a game of street ball. Nelson would break him in half.

Agreed. There's no excuse for being a jerk on the court. It's just evidence that, in the right (or wrong, I guess) environment off the court, the same behaviors can appear.

OldPhiKap
01-25-2008, 08:24 AM
Deron Washington is living proof in reincarnation, because his approach to the game is the spitting image of Tom Sheehey. I have not loathed another non-Tar Heel this much in 20+ years.

Where's Dan Meagher when we need him?

pamtar
01-25-2008, 08:29 AM
I'd just like to know what Markie said to him to get a tech. Partly, because I'd like to say the same thing.

Jumbo
01-25-2008, 08:34 AM
Hopefully, somebody, not a Duke player, will take Washington out.

This is really not appropriate. It makes you not better than Washington.

_Gary
01-25-2008, 08:37 AM
I really couldn't disagree more, and agree with the original poster. I've watched that play probably 15 times both at full speed and during the replay, and Washington was deliberately going after the legs. Yeah, he cowered a bit, but that's because he knew he was initiating contact and might take a leg or other body part to the head. Markie jumped, and he lept right in under him as fast as he could. I don't see any other way to see it; he wasn't even playing the shot or trying for good position. DeMarcus was rightfully mad.

Yep, that's exactly how I saw it to. But since I didn't have access to a dvr of the play, and only got to see one quick replay onscreen, I wanted to make sure I wasn't seeing things. Because neither announcer said a thing about it, and that really shocked me. Of all the instances in the second half when they talked about physical play, they missed the most egregious of them all.

My initial thought was that after Markie committed and was in the air Washington lept under him as fast as he could. He kinda bent his head down as he was doing it, probably to avoid a foot in the face and possibly also to give the impression of "oops - did I do that?" But it was intentional and it was very serious. I hope the league reviews that film and suspends the guy. He's flat out dangerous and needs to be severely reprimanded for that particular play - as well as his overall chippy attitude on the court.

Gary

johnb
01-25-2008, 08:44 AM
Having watched the plays many times, I'd say Washington deliberately undercut DeMarcus and deliberately tripped Singler. He didn't have fifteen minutes to plan these particular hack jobs, but the Tech strategy was to play hard with an emphasis on dirty and Washington took every opportunity to hassle (which is punk-y but tolerable) and to injure (which is not tolerable and led to anger on the part of guys who don't ordinarily show anger). I don't blame the players as much as the coach. Someone was asking about lawsuits on the court, and if a player goes out with an injury because the coach has been instructing his players to play dirty, I think he should be liable as much as the player. Further, the college president should be held explicitly responsible for the team's behavior--though judging from the institutional nonresponse and Greenberg's contract extension, the University simply doesn't care. The ongoing pattern of thuggery confirms my earlier belief that Virginia Tech should not have been allowed in the ACC.

pamtar
01-25-2008, 08:50 AM
Before grunge was cool, Deron Washington made his debut in the ACC on Nov. 25, 2004 and since then has been the butt of "dirt" gags. He walks around in a cloud of dust, sprinkling dirt on all he comes in contact with. Deron is happily messy. He doesn't try to explain it, hide it, fight it. For him, it's just a fact of life. His slovenly ways paid off in 2005 with a series of television commercials for Regina vacuum cleaners which combined animation with live-action.

CDu
01-25-2008, 08:53 AM
Having watched the plays many times, I'd say Washington deliberately undercut DeMarcus and deliberately tripped Singler. He didn't have fifteen minutes to plan these particular hack jobs, but the Tech strategy was to play hard with an emphasis on dirty and Washington took every opportunity to hassle (which is punk-y but tolerable) and to injure (which is not tolerable and led to anger on the part of guys who don't ordinarily show anger). I don't blame the players as much as the coach. Someone was asking about lawsuits on the court, and if a player goes out with an injury because the coach has been instructing his players to play dirty, I think he should be liable as much as the player. Further, the college president should be held explicitly responsible for the team's behavior--though judging from the institutional nonresponse and Greenberg's contract extension, the University simply doesn't care. The ongoing pattern of thuggery confirms my earlier belief that Virginia Tech should not have been allowed in the ACC.

I think a distinction should be made. I suspect that Greenberg coaches playing with emotion and playing physically. I highly doubt he coaches players to injure opponents or play dirty. I just think he wants physical aggressive play, so as to minimize the disadvantages his team has in talent. Saying that he and the university should be held liable is a bit of a stretch.

That said, I do agree that Greenberg should do a better job of policing his players. Actually, if he simply policed Washington successfully, the majority of the rest of the stuff Va Tech does isn't too different from any other lower-tier ACC school. It's physical, but I don't really remember anyone else being dirty.

And I completely agree that Va Tech was a terrible addition to the ACC.

johnb
01-25-2008, 09:08 AM
I think a distinction should be made. I suspect that Greenberg coaches playing with emotion and playing physically. I highly doubt he coaches players to injure opponents or play dirty. I just think he wants physical aggressive play, so as to minimize the disadvantages his team has in talent. Saying that he and the university should be held liable is a bit of a stretch.

That said, I do agree that Greenberg should do a better job of policing his players. Actually, if he simply policed Washington successfully, the majority of the rest of the stuff Va Tech does isn't too different from any other lower-tier ACC school. It's physical, but I don't really remember anyone else being dirty.

And I completely agree that Va Tech was a terrible addition to the ACC.


I agree more or less, but to play devil's advocate...

Greenberg continues to smile and smirk about his team's "physical" play. If Allen had elbowed a ref while playing for Duke, K would have flogged him in public rather than initially deny and eventually give a pr statement. Further, Greenberg has had Washington under his wing for almost 4 years and should do more than "police" his players; if I were Washington's mother, I'd be saddened. And if I were a lawyer for a player whose NBA dream had been squashed by a punk who was being encouraged by his coach, my lawsuit would cast a wide net.

dukeENG2003
01-25-2008, 09:12 AM
Yep, that's exactly how I saw it to. But since I didn't have access to a dvr of the play, and only got to see one quick replay onscreen, I wanted to make sure I wasn't seeing things. Because neither announcer said a thing about it, and that really shocked me. Of all the instances in the second half when they talked about physical play, they missed the most egregious of them all.

My initial thought was that after Markie committed and was in the air Washington lept under him as fast as he could. He kinda bent his head down as he was doing it, probably to avoid a foot in the face and possibly also to give the impression of "oops - did I do that?" But it was intentional and it was very serious. I hope the league reviews that film and suspends the guy. He's flat out dangerous and needs to be severely reprimanded for that particular play - as well as his overall chippy attitude on the court.

Gary


Len Elmore tried to justify it as "getting position for a rebound", but honestly, he'd have been in better position for the rebound if he stayed where he was. Dirty play, dirty player. Deserves to be suspended for that play.

At the very least, he should be issued a warning, his antics could really hurt some people. His foul on Nelson later should have been called flagrant IMO. Not b/c of intent (he DID make a play on the ball), but due to excessive contact, which would have been his second flagrant.

Its always satisfying to see a punk performance like this, and to still beat them badly, it makes the victory that much sweeter.

CDu
01-25-2008, 09:16 AM
I agree more or less, but to play devil's advocate...

Greenberg continues to smile and smirk about his team's "physical" play. If Allen had elbowed a ref while playing for Duke, K would have flogged him in public rather than initially deny and eventually give a pr statement. Further, Greenberg has had Washington under his wing for almost 4 years and should do more than "police" his players; if I were Washington's mother, I'd be saddened. And if I were a lawyer for a player whose NBA dream had been squashed by a punk who was being encouraged by his coach, my lawsuit would cast a wide net.

This is only the part I disagree with. I cannot believe that Greenberg is encouraging Washington. I completely agree that he's not actively discouraging Washington enough, and that is deplorable. But there's a big difference (at least from a legal standpoint) between actively encouraging and not actively discouraging enough. You could sue, but you're probably wasting your (and everyone else's) time with such a suit.

I really dislike Greenberg because I think he's sleazy and I disagree with the idea of coaching overly physical style of play. And while I completely agree that he should have done more to curb Washington's antics over the year. In a perfect world, this should have been stopped long ago. I just don't know that Greenberg can be held legally responsible for not stopping Washington. Ultimately, those are Washington's actions, not Greenberg's.

gadzooks
01-25-2008, 09:44 AM
I don't see how you can pick and choose which particular behaviors constitute being a terrific young man. If he cheats on the court, he's a cheater. If he takes cheap shots on the court, he's a cheap shot artist. He's still the same guy after he showers and puts his civvies on.Yeah, I have to agree with this. When I first heard Elmore say it last night, I was thinking kind of like earlier posters, that distinguishing between DW's behavior on and off the court was OK, but now that I've thought about it some more, I think that how you conduct yourself on the court reflects on your overall character. There's the typical stuff like jawing and bumping that's just part of the game, but what he did last night goes well beyond that. Deliberately doing stuff that you should reasonably know could injure another player makes you an a-hole no matter how much time you spend off the court reading to orphans and rescuing puppies.

Indoor66
01-25-2008, 09:49 AM
Yeah, I have to agree with this. When I first heard Elmore say it last night, I was thinking kind of like earlier posters, that distinguishing between DW's behavior on and off the court was OK, but now that I've thought about it some more, I think that how you conduct yourself on the court reflects on your overall character. There's the typical stuff like jawing and bumping that's just part of the game, but what he did last night goes well beyond that. Deliberately doing stuff that you should reasonably know could injure another player makes you an a-hole no matter how much time you spend off the court reading to orphans and rescuing puppies.

And we know how VT players treat puppies....

arnie
01-25-2008, 11:11 AM
It would not surprise me to see a major incident with either the football or basketball program in 2008 (major fight breakout or injury to an opposing player from dirty play). At that point, would the other school presdents consider removing the program from the ACC? I think many others (ask UVA fans) feel the same way we do. This is not about rivalries, but about an athletic program that does not carry themselves to ACC standards.

Is it possible to buy them out and possibly replace with another school such as Syracuse??

UrinalCake
01-25-2008, 11:31 AM
A couple years ago against Florida State, and FSU player was given a technical foul after a mix-up with a Duke player. After the game the play was reviewed and the league decided that he shouldn't have gotten that T, so the officiating crew was suspended. In the following weeks there were plenty of outcries of "Duke gets all the calls, and this is proof of that."

What are the chances that the same will be done regarding last night's technical that was given to DeMarcus? All he did was look at Washington and, from what I've read, shout at him. Yet he gets T'ed up, which was also his fifth foul.

My question is of course sarcastic, because nothing will be done. But I just thought I'd point this out (because I needed to get it off my chest).

Highlander
01-25-2008, 11:32 AM
Having watched the plays many times, I'd say Washington deliberately undercut DeMarcus and deliberately tripped Singler. He didn't have fifteen minutes to plan these particular hack jobs, but the Tech strategy was to play hard with an emphasis on dirty and Washington took every opportunity to hassle (which is punk-y but tolerable) and to injure (which is not tolerable and led to anger on the part of guys who don't ordinarily show anger). I don't blame the players as much as the coach. Someone was asking about lawsuits on the court, and if a player goes out with an injury because the coach has been instructing his players to play dirty, I think he should be liable as much as the player. Further, the college president should be held explicitly responsible for the team's behavior--though judging from the institutional nonresponse and Greenberg's contract extension, the University simply doesn't care. The ongoing pattern of thuggery confirms my earlier belief that Virginia Tech should not have been allowed in the ACC.

One thing I'm curious about since you watched the play a few times. What did you make of LT extending his arms into Washington's back? I couldn't tell how much force there was, but another interpretation of the play was that Thomas pushed Washington into the play, and he ducked to avoid colliding with Nelson, who was in midair.

I watched the play 5-6 times and even slowed it down and I couldn't tell. Anyone else see it?

Before anyone jumps all over me, I still think DW's a jerk.

Acymetric
01-25-2008, 11:41 AM
It would not surprise me to see a major incident with either the football or basketball program in 2008 (major fight breakout or injury to an opposing player from dirty play). At that point, would the other school presdents consider removing the program from the ACC? I think many others (ask UVA fans) feel the same way we do. This is not about rivalries, but about an athletic program that does not carry themselves to ACC standards.

Is it possible to buy them out and possibly replace with another school such as Syracuse??

I can't tell you how happy I'd be if we could trade VT for Syracuse (though Boheim won't be there too much longer, so who knows if I'd feel the same way after he was gone...). Syracuse has long been one of the teams that I pull for besides Duke. Really probably the only team I pull for besides Duke, not counting upstart mid major schools in the tourney.

Of course, this will never, ever, ever happen. Ever. VT will probably be here "forever." But I'm never gonna have millions of dollars either, and its still fun to think about what life would be like if I did.

Trinity84
01-25-2008, 11:43 AM
Deron Washington is living proof in reincarnation, because his approach to the game is the spitting image of Tom Sheehey. I have not loathed another non-Tar Heel this much in 20+ years.

Where's Dan Meagher when we need him?

I submit the name of one George Karl as a member of the All Time ACC Punk Squad. In fact, he should be the capitan!

oso diablo
01-25-2008, 11:58 AM
he's certainly the most melodramatic

rthomas
01-25-2008, 12:32 PM
Sorry if these ahve been posted:

After Duke freshman Kyle Singler (16 points) stole the ball from him, they were heading up the floor when Washington pushed Singler in the back with 12:50 left. Singler fell to the floor and Washington was called for an intentional foul.

"It was a physical game," said Washington, who had 12 points before fouling out late in the game. "Somebody pushed me while I was trying to run, and I ended up hitting him and he ended up falling."


When Washington was called for the intentional foul, ESPN -- which aired the game -- showed footage of Washington kicking Lee Melchionni in Tech's home loss to Duke two years ago.

Duke's DeMarcus Nelson fouled out when he was called for a technical after being fouled by Washington late in the game.

"He just got upset," Washington said. "He was saying [something] to me because he thought it was a hard foul. I was going after the ball."

"Both teams were a little frisky," Greenberg said. "I'm sure [Greg] Paulus is probably tired of seeing the bottom of Deron's shorts."

Greenberg was referring to Washington having hurdled Paulus for a layup in the previous meeting.

SilkyJ
01-25-2008, 12:34 PM
i had very little respect for Greenberg before. now I have none.

do we have any quotes from Krzyzewski yet?

Bryan
01-25-2008, 12:37 PM
he's certainly the most melodramatic

and the worst actor. Some of the dives and flops ended up two or three steps from where he started.

I think Washington's actions reflect poorly on Greenberg. Washington is a senior, the coach should have been been able to get him to stop the over-the-top reactions (that must really annoy the officials) by now.

dukeENG2003
01-25-2008, 12:37 PM
I'm sure K had nothing negative to say, he never does.

3rd Dukie
01-25-2008, 12:38 PM
i had very little respect for Greenberg before. now I have none.

do we have any quotes from Krzyzewski yet?

Agree 100%!

DBR's separated at birth picture of Iceburg and Uncle Fester is absolutely brilliant!!

Devil07
01-25-2008, 12:46 PM
FYI the whole article those quotes from is here: http://www.roanoke.com/sports/vtbasketball/wb/148364

As I said in another thread, it's not terrible that Greenberg essentially called out Paulus for being "frisky;" Paulus certainly does play that way at times. However, it strikes me as very unprofessional and frankly petty for a coach to be goating an opposing player like that. Is it a big deal? I don't think so, but it does help explain where the attitude of the team comes from.

alteran
01-25-2008, 12:48 PM
I didn't dvr the game, but for those that have I wish you'd look at the play I mentioned. I'd love to hear some other thoughts on that particular situation, because it got only one quick replay. But I swear it could have done serious damage to DeMarcus - and it was done deliberately! Of all the chippy and dirty things Washington engaged in during the night, that one was the worst in my book. You can't undercut guys when they are in the air and helpless.

I can't go downstairs to my DVR right now (kids are upstairs), but the lip read on Demarcus was something like, "what the hell was that sh**?!!?"

My brother and I replayed that one about 5 times-- Washington was not blocking anyone out, and he was unnecessarily bent over-- it was very obvious that he was intentionally undercutting Demarcus.

It wasn't the nastiest undercut I've ever seen, but it was deliberate, and it should have been at least a T.

77devil
01-25-2008, 12:49 PM
Sorry if these ahve been posted:

Duke's DeMarcus Nelson fouled out when he was called for a technical after being fouled by Washington late in the game.

"He just got upset," Washington said. "He was saying [something] to me because he thought it was a hard foul. I was going after the ball.".

Interesting spin. I did not realize one could be going for the ball while underneath the player who is attempting to dunk.

dukeENG2003
01-25-2008, 12:51 PM
Interesting spin. I did not realize one could be going for the ball while underneath the player who is attempting to dunk.

different play, he was talking about the block (the play D-Mark got the T on)

mbd1mbd1
01-25-2008, 12:51 PM
FYI, here's the one youtube link I've found; it's from SportsCenter and not that great. Anyone else?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzClbTmzPbg

rthomas
01-25-2008, 12:51 PM
Interesting spin. I did not realize one could be going for the ball while underneath the player who is attempting to dunk.

Unless he was going for it with his butt.

CDu
01-25-2008, 12:55 PM
Interesting spin. I did not realize one could be going for the ball while underneath the player who is attempting to dunk.

He was talking about the foul that led to the technical. He wasn't discussing the undercutting incident.

Rich
01-25-2008, 12:58 PM
Last frame of that clip shows Dunleavy on the scroll having 22 points for the Pacers in a losing cause.

CDu
01-25-2008, 01:00 PM
FYI the whole article those quotes from is here: http://www.roanoke.com/sports/vtbasketball/wb/148364

As I said in another thread, it's not terrible that Greenberg essentially called out Paulus for being "frisky;" Paulus certainly does play that way at times. However, it strikes me as very unprofessional and frankly petty for a coach to be goating an opposing player like that. Is it a big deal? I don't think so, but it does help explain where the attitude of the team comes from.

I completely agree. Greenberg is a sarcastic guy who, in another setting, would probably be fun to have a beer with. I'm sure he meant it in jest to make levity of the situation, but it comes off as very unprofessional. And given that it was his player who was in the wrong, it is not the appropriate response at all.

This is one of the big beefs I have with Greenberg - he doesn't take enough accountability for his players' actions and doesn't seem to instill any discipline. He always comes out in support of his players initially. He may eventually come back and discipline them, but (if he does) it never seems to come out in the media and it never seems to have any effect. The other problem is that he seems to recruit guys with questionable attitudes and then coaches an aggressive/physical style that lends itself to these players doing thuggish things.

rthomas
01-25-2008, 01:09 PM
FYI, here's the one youtube link I've found; it's from SportsCenter and not that great. Anyone else?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzClbTmzPbg

That clip clearly shows that this is false. On swiping at Singler, "Somebody pushed me while I was trying to run, and I ended up hitting him and he ended up falling."

allenmurray
01-25-2008, 01:14 PM
IThis is one of the big beefs I have with Greenberg - he doesn't take enough accountability for his players' actions . . . He may eventually . . . discipline them, but (if he does) it never seems to . . . have any effect. (my emphasis)

Enough? How about any?

The last part of your post reminds me of a point I frequently make when I teach behavior management classes to folks adding special education to their teaching licensure. The definition of punishment is an action, that when applied, reduces the liklihood of the behavior occuring again. If it doesn't reduce the behavior it wasn't punishment (I try to help school administrators understnd that suspending students isn't punishment given that the same ones are suspended over and over again, but they never seem to get it).

CDu
01-25-2008, 01:15 PM
That clip clearly shows that this is false. On swiping at Singler, "Somebody pushed me while I was trying to run, and I ended up hitting him and he ended up falling."

I'll be honest - there was nothing clear in that clip at all (either way). It was a really poor tape job. That said, I completely agree that he was not pushed by anybody. I also think the contact was incidental. He was complaining to the refs and they ran into each other's legs. Singler goes down, and Washington stumbles.

alteran
01-25-2008, 01:17 PM
Hmmm. I'd love to see the play again because to me on the replay it looked like he intentionally stuck his butt into DeMarcus when he could have easily avoided him. Again, I'd love to see the play again, because that one troubles me more than any of the others (and there were plenty to be troubled about).

Gary

Well, I gotta say I pretty much totally disagree with Patrick on this one.

I just went downstairs and "reviewed" this one. The play is slightly more complicated than I remember and it is actually WORSE when you view it frame by frame.

Demarcus is coming from the right side running almost parallel to the plane of the backboard. On the left side of the basket, Lance and Thomas are fighting for position. After the whistle blows, and completely contrary to what the nonsensical Elmore said, Washington did not attempt to make a play because of continuation. Washington gets a light shove from Lance, close to or immediately after the whistle. Washington-- with his eyes on Demarcus the entire time, walks under Demarcus' "flight path", and tenses his right shoulder in anticipation of contacting Demarcus. Once contact is made with Markie's right thigh and Demarcus starts to fall, Washington leans over and looks away, and appears to be backing into the contact, exacerbating the fall.

This was absolutely deliberate undercut.

Now, the whole thing happened in less then two seconds. I don't mean that Washington deliberately intended everything to happen exactly as it did. But he was deliberately moving into Demarcus' path while he was in the air, and he was making no attempt to play the ball.

There is no other explanation.

CDu
01-25-2008, 01:19 PM
IThis is one of the big beefs I have with Greenberg - he doesn't take enough accountability for his players' actions . . . He may eventually . . . discipline them, but (if he does) it never seems to . . . have any effect.(my emphasis)

Enough? How about any?

The last part of your post reminds me of a point I frequently make when I teach behavior management classes to folks adding special education to their teaching licensure. The definition of punishment is an action, that when applied, reduces the liklihood of the behavior occuring again. If it doesn't reduce the behavior it wasn't punishment (I try to help school administrators understnd that suspending students isn't punishment given that the same ones are suspended over and over again, but they never seem to get it).

Well, I'd say you're teaching your classes slightly incorrectly then. :) The punishment doesn't have to reduce the behavior to be a punishment. It's supposed to reduce the LIKELIHOOD of the behavior. Likelihood is a tricky term - some people are just outliers.

There are more effective punishments and less effective punishments. Clearly, Greenberg's punishment strategy with Washington (if there has been one) hasn't worked very well. That doesn't necessarily mean it's not a punishment.

kdevilsk212
01-25-2008, 01:30 PM
Interesting spin. I did not realize one could be going for the ball while underneath the player who is attempting to dunk.

Thank you. You couldn't be more correct. Watch the video. When he undercuts DeMarcus, the ball is at the rim. Washington (a phenomenal leaper) is bent over and sliding into D-Marc's legs. If he was going for ball, it begs the question, which one?

He's scum. But it's clear that his style is fully endorsed and encouraged by his coach. Greenberg should be ashamed.

_Gary
01-25-2008, 01:33 PM
Well, I gotta say I pretty much totally disagree with Patrick on this one.

I just went downstairs and "reviewed" this one. The play is slightly more complicated than I remember and it is actually WORSE when you view it frame by frame.

Demarcus is coming from the right side running almost parallel to the plane of the backboard. On the left side of the basket, Lance and Thomas are fighting for position. After the whistle blows, and completely contrary to what the nonsensical Elmore said, Washington did not attempt to make a play because of continuation. Washington gets a light shove from Lance, close to or immediately after the whistle. Washington-- with his eyes on Demarcus the entire time, walks under Demarcus' "flight path", and tenses his right shoulder in anticipation of contacting Demarcus. Once contact is made with Markie's right thigh and Demarcus starts to fall, Washington leans over and looks away, and appears to be backing into the contact, exacerbating the fall.

This was absolutely deliberate undercut.

Now, the whole thing happened in less then two seconds. I don't mean that Washington deliberately intended everything to happen exactly as it did. But he was deliberately moving into Demarcus' path while he was in the air, and he was making no attempt to play the ball.

There is no other explanation.

Thanks alt. That's pretty much the way I remembered it. The points that stuck out to me were:

1) Washington moved after the whistle
2) He moved quickly to get under Markie, eyeballing him all the way
3) He was clearly not making a play on the ball
4) He stuck his butt out to make any potential impact even worse and undercut that much more

I sincerely hope the league looks at the tape of the game and that play in particular. I sincerely believe a strong rebuke is in order, if not a suspension. It was that serious, IMHO. And for clarification, I'm not saying a rebuke or suspension is in order for that play alone. It's not a vacuum. It's about the cumulative play from Washington in Duke games (plural) for the last couple of years. All that together makes me feel the way I do.

Gary

alteran
01-25-2008, 01:34 PM
And we know how VT players treat puppies....

LOL!

Direct hit, Indoor. If VT was a boat they'd be manning the pumps.

CDu
01-25-2008, 01:36 PM
Thank you. You couldn't be more correct. Watch the video. When he undercuts DeMarcus, the ball is at the rim. Washington (a phenomenal leaper) is bent over and sliding into D-Marc's legs. If he was going for ball, it begs the question, which one?

He's scum. But it's clear that his style is fully endorsed and encouraged by his coach. Greenberg should be ashamed.

Read the other posts. His quote refers to the play after which Nelson got the technical, NOT the undercut. He didn't say he was going for the ball on the undercut (doesn't seem to discuss that play at all).

I agree that he's not the most sportsmanlike individual I've ever seen (to say the least), though.

EarlJam
01-25-2008, 01:38 PM
"Both teams were a little frisky," Greenberg said. "I'm sure [Greg] Paulus is probably tired of seeing the bottom of Deron's shorts."

Greenberg was referring to Washington having hurdled Paulus for a layup in the previous meeting.

How could a coach take a jab at a kid like that? What an anal bag.

-EarlJam

alteran
01-25-2008, 01:41 PM
One thing I'm curious about since you watched the play a few times. What did you make of LT extending his arms into Washington's back? I couldn't tell how much force there was, but another interpretation of the play was that Thomas pushed Washington into the play, and he ducked to avoid colliding with Nelson, who was in midair.

I watched the play 5-6 times and even slowed it down and I couldn't tell. Anyone else see it?

Before anyone jumps all over me, I still think DW's a jerk.

Yes, I saw the same thing, and mentioned it. Washington did not look back at LT at all as if surprised or pushed out of control. He doesn't fly into Demarcus' landing zone, or flail his arms for balance. He gets shoved, takes two steps under complete control while watching Demarcus the whole time, leans his right shoulder into the contact, and when contact is made he changes his direction and backs into Demarcus and bends over.

If Lance's push did all that... well... In the words of Jerry Seinfeld, that was one magic loogie. ;)

Clipsfan
01-25-2008, 01:51 PM
How could a coach take a jab at a kid like that? What an anal bag.

-EarlJam

I wholeheartedly agree. Given how out of line he is, I'm surprised he didn't say something about Melch being sick of seeing Deron's foot. I know that there's another thread about how dirty Deron is, but count me as one of the many who thinks he's really dirty and didn't mind if he hurt people in the process. I don't get Seth's defense of those actions, as they reflect very poorly upon him.

Clipsfan
01-25-2008, 01:57 PM
When I watched it at full speed, I agreed with you. On the replay, I thought that Washington was trying to duck out of Demarcus's way, and his rear unfortunately got in the way. As a HS player whose job it was to foul, hardish, I have stuck my butt out a few times, and I don't think that is what happened. He could have done a better job getting out of the way, but I don't think it was intentional.

Patrick Yates

I watched it (I recorded it in HD) and it definitely looked intentionally. He moved towards the basket to be in the vicinity, then undercut Nelson.

SMO
01-25-2008, 01:59 PM
I wholeheartedly agree. Given how out of line he is, I'm surprised he didn't say something about Melch being sick of seeing Deron's foot. I know that there's another thread about how dirty Deron is, but count me as one of the many who thinks he's really dirty and didn't mind if he hurt people in the process. I don't get Seth's defense of those actions, as they reflect very poorly upon him.

Seth Goonberg is quickly becoming the coaching clown of the ACC. He's turning into Bob Huggins minus a good W/L record.

SilkyJ
01-25-2008, 01:59 PM
However, it strikes me as very unprofessional and frankly petty for a coach to be goating an opposing player like that. Is it a big deal? I don't think so, but it does help explain where the attitude of the team comes from.

well put. what a dick move to take a jab at a kid like that. i bet greenburg's tired of being a mediocre coach at a mediocre school.

gadzooks
01-25-2008, 02:00 PM
At what time in the game was this? I'd like to go back and watch it again myself, but can't remember quite when it happened.

allenmurray
01-25-2008, 02:10 PM
Bob Huggins minus a good W/L record.

what a great description

CDu
01-25-2008, 02:14 PM
At what time in the game was this? I'd like to go back and watch it again myself, but can't remember quite when it happened.

The undercut happens (I believe) around the 7:06 mark of the second half. The technical occurs at the 3:47 mark. This is based on the ESPN.com play-by-play:

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=280240259

gadzooks
01-25-2008, 02:23 PM
Thanks, CDu.


And we know how VT players treat puppies....Dang, I'm slow today--I JUST caught that. LOL.

greybeard
01-25-2008, 02:25 PM
Sorry guys, I went to the video tape, just like what's his name used to say and I saw no undercut here, much less a deliberate one. The kid had his back to the field of play and Nelson drove in, sliding to the side as he went to shot, which made contact with Washington unavoidable. I saw Washington duck reflexively.

There is no way that this was intended to hurt, and it didn't. Nelson was not heading for a forceful collision with Washington, but could have whacked the guy in the head, which was what apparently caused Washington to duck. Nelson did not come anywhere near going over Washington's back, not even close. If you've ever been submarined, you'd never say that this was that.

For whatever this is worth, Nelson seemed facially to have more than a little edge and seemed to be spitting nails at Washington after the play. One can say that perhaps Nelson was angered at what he thought was a dirty play, or he was just plain playing with an angry face, and was letting Washington, whose team Nelson had just taken it to, whom was whom. In other words, Nelson was no choir boy; this was a rough house game and both Nelson and Paulus are this team's proactive leaders when it comes to bringing it to other teams.

I have a feeling that you are placing Duke on a saintly pedestal that none of them want. They want and have earned the reputation of being a tough, in-your-face ball club who will start guarding you when you first walk on the court and not stop until you leave. They will give no quarter and ask for none.

Did they not send precisely that message the very first home game what with that diving display against a third rate team. They have not let up since.

Why you all are insisting that this team is something directly opposite of what it purposefully projects is a puzzling question that who cares to answer? The point is that it does not serve your team's interest, and is not who they are.

Whether Washington and Seth are what you say they are, frankly, I doubt either of them care. I do not see Seth in the same terms that you guys do, and, while I missed last night, I have seen him a fair amount. I liked the way his club played last year very much. In particular, I thought that their style on offense was terrifically entertaining and daring. I used to listen to his views a lot on the radio when he was at USF and found them engaging and insightful.

Compared to El Dino, who taught his players that little put-your-hands-up-and-take-one-step-closer-to-the-jump-shooter move so the shooter would be more concerned with where he might come down then focusing on the rim, the guy is a freakin saint.

NYD33
01-25-2008, 02:27 PM
Take a look at the clip again. On the second shot (the one taken from the baseline cam) you can clearly see him lean into the middle of the lane to get a shot in on Demarcus. No way that was unintentional. The guy tries to block anything near the goal yet somehow this play he's just gonna try to duck "out of the way". Not a chance.

SMO
01-25-2008, 02:50 PM
Take a look at the clip again. On the second shot (the one taken from the baseline cam) you can clearly see him lean into the middle of the lane to get a shot in on Demarcus. No way that was unintentional. The guy tries to block anything near the goal yet somehow this play he's just gonna try to duck "out of the way". Not a chance.

You're exactly right. The natural reaction would be to stand still or move away from the guy in the air (DeMarcus). I give an 85% probability that it was intentional.

greybeard
01-25-2008, 02:53 PM
Take a look at the clip again. On the second shot (the one taken from the baseline cam) you can clearly see him lean into the middle of the lane to get a shot in on Demarcus. No way that was unintentional. The guy tries to block anything near the goal yet somehow this play he's just gonna try to duck "out of the way". Not a chance.

Sorry, I did and I can't. What I see is Demarcus slashing in a sideways slide that causes Washington to duck.

In the Singler play, the guy was clearly frustrated by the no-call that preceeded it. Many teams on the road in the ACC feel like that get jobbed. As fans, we are always losing it, right? Players shouldn't.

The only other collision on the tape, the one between Demarcus and Washington, was a block or a charge. Demarcus took it to the rim with terrific acceleration knowing that a collision was possible. He has been called for charges on many plays like that in the past. Like I said, he plays with no fear and at times, dare I say it, with reckless abandon. We all love him for it.

I don't see that as a no=call play. The whistle should have been called on that one, one way or the other. The first one with Singler, that was a passable okay no-call, maybe. In my view, the collision between Demarcus and Washington at the basket was not.

ugadevil
01-25-2008, 03:00 PM
I may be wrong about this but I think the Redick family used to be good friends with the Greenberg family. I believe it was J.J.'s younger brother, David, who was dating Seth Greenberg's daughter. I have no idea on whether or not they're still together, but I just think it's funny and kind of ironic that the the two families have a connection. Extrememly ironic, if you consider how the Redick family was treated in Blacksburg.

Stray Gator
01-25-2008, 03:10 PM
... I do not see Seth in the same terms that you guys do, and, while I missed last night, I have seen him a fair amount. I liked the way his club played last year very much. In particular, I thought that their style on offense was terrifically entertaining and daring. I used to listen to his views a lot on the radio when he was at USF and found them engaging and insightful...

Greybeard,

You apparently have a plausible explanation under which each of Deron Washington's controversial actions on the court can be cast as innocuous, if not a justifiable response to some instigation by a Duke player, so I think it's pointless to elaborate on what I perceive as a distinction between playing tough and deliberately being a punk in an attempt to provoke a reaction that might take someone out of their game. But since you are an admirer of Seth Greenberg, I'm curious whether you find his postgame quip that "I'm sure Paulus is probably tired of seeing the bottom of Deron's shorts" to be "engaging and insightful."

DukeDevil
01-25-2008, 03:27 PM
Hopefully, somebody, not a Duke player, will take Washington out. Maybe FSU, they are about on a par with him. It is sad, because he definitely has some talent. It is also sad because his coach allows him to get away with it. He will end up playing in Europe, I don't think he would survive in the NBA.

I just started reading this thread so apologies if someone already addressed this but...no matter how dirty someone is I think it lessens us to wish for someone to "take him out." I think we're all above that. I just hope the refs continue to wise up to his game and he realizes his antics won't keep drawing him fouls like they do, I think that'll help straighten out his game a lot, because his coach certainly doesn't care to.

Wander
01-25-2008, 03:28 PM
I do not see Seth in the same terms that you guys do, and, while I missed last night, I have seen him a fair amount.

So you still haven't seen Virginia Tech play this year?

mph
01-25-2008, 03:50 PM
As for VT. Used to be a bit of a fan of them and all I really am exposed to is their football and basketball teams (so I do not want to indict the entire program) but considering what has gone on there with some of their players in those two sports both on the field and off it seems to me that they need to take a look at who they're bringing in there and what they're trying to do. Win at all costs? Dunno - but some of the behavior on the court from their players, off the court/field by some of their players, and by some of their fans (see JJ) makes a first class institution look low class.

Couldn't agree more. Both Greenberg and Beamer have had more than the average share of problems with team character. Just in the last several years Tech football has produced the Vick brothers and DeAngelo Hall. I remember a bowl game a couple of years ago where a Va Tech CB was booted for bumping an official. Let's not forget that the Morrison in U.S. v Morrison (http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/search/display.html?terms=divorce&url=/supct/html/99-5.ZS.html) (the Supreme Court case that struck down the Violence Against Women's Act) was a Va Tech football player. He and a fellow football player were accused of raping a fellow student. Neither were suspended.

Every program will occasionally have discipline problems, some even major. Unfortunately, there seems to be a culture at Va Tech that promotes winning at the expense of producing student athletes that will reflect positively on the university.

Virginian
01-25-2008, 03:54 PM
As a number have already noted it's weird to see Greenberg and his players quoted as complaining about how feisty and frisky the Duke players were and supposedly generally are. More revealing is how everyone of the VT players talked about being hit and not hitting back enough -- the whole team's outlook on the game seems to be akin to a prize fight. Guess that explains why they play the way they do, and it appears to come directly from how Greenberg coaches.

But on a related topic, I sure wish the TV announcers would spend less time reviewing calls and pronouncing them justified or not. Those charging calls go the "wrong way" all the time and in both directions. They're made in split seconds from bad angles. Bilas spent a lot of time in the FSU (?) game reviewing calls that went Duke's way, at one point exclaiming "That's a BAD ALL. A BAD BAD CALL!!" And the replay showed it as best questionable -- maybe the Duke defender was still moving slightly rather than having established position.

Last night Elmore went on at great length mid-second half when the refs called a hand-check foul on the kid guarding Nolan Smith. "How can they call that?" he asked over and over, given how physical the game had been so far. He didn't bother to ask that after the three immediately previous calls -- all within a minute or two, all against Duke and all for nothing more than minor bumps or hand checks.

I don't want to sound too defensive about it. I just wish the announcers would spend more time doing instant replays of the players playing than they do showing instant replays of the officials doing their jobs.

Now I feel better. Thanks.

Indoor66
01-25-2008, 03:57 PM
As a number have already noted it's weird to see Greenberg and his players quoted as complaining about how feisty and frisky the Duke players were and supposedly generally are. More revealing is how everyone of the VT players talked about being hit and not hitting back enough -- the whole team's outlook on the game seems to be akin to a prize fight. Guess that explains why they play the way they do, and it appears to come directly from how Greenberg coaches.

But on a related topic, I sure wish the TV announcers would spend less time reviewing calls and pronouncing them justified or not. Those charging calls go the "wrong way" all the time and in both directions. They're made in split seconds from bad angles. Bilas spent a lot of time in the FSU (?) game reviewing calls that went Duke's way, at one point exclaiming "That's a BAD ALL. A BAD BAD CALL!!" And the replay showed it as best questionable -- maybe the Duke defender was still moving slightly rather than having established position.

Last night Elmore went on at great length mid-second half when the refs called a hand-check foul on the kid guarding Nolan Smith. "How can they call that?" he asked over and over, given how physical the game had been so far. He didn't bother to ask that after the three immediately previous calls -- all within a minute or two, all against Duke and all for nothing more than minor bumps or hand checks.

I don't want to sound too defensive about it. I just wish the announcers would spend more time doing instant replays of the players playing than they do showing instant replays of the officials doing their jobs.

Now I feel better. Thanks.

I completely agree. Leave the it alone. The analysis of the refs if wayyyyyyyyyyyy overdone.

greybeard
01-25-2008, 04:00 PM
So you still haven't seen Virginia Tech play this year?

Nope. But I did stay at a holiday inn express last night. The fouls were even, as called, and nothing on the video tape substantiates the claims that there was anything over the top here.

On the otherhand, I have seen Duke play: these guys, it seems to me, are tough and like that other teams know it. Duke often plays I'm-gonna-stick-my-arm-down-your-throat-and rip-your-lungs-out-type defense which is designed to take opposing players out of their games both mentally and physically. Freshmen, in particular, on an undermanned and clearly overmatched team are vulnerable. Stuff happens.

No one came close to getting hurt, and no attempt to hurt anyone was made.

Just curious, say you were in VT's shoes, dare I even say Seth's. Your strategy would be what? Tell your guys to surrender to the intimidation? I don't think so.

3rd Dukie
01-25-2008, 04:10 PM
BTW, did you guys know Elmore went to Harvard Law School?

There was a cretin at FSU (I think) who looked sorta like that shoe bomber dude and had a snout like an inverted fishhook. I don't recall him being a saint either. Was his name Reed, or am I just thinking about the shoe bomber guy?

I wonder how Clemson would have reacted.

Sometimes I think folks are too concerned with us putting ourselves "on someone else's level." As my Daddy used to say, "enough of a damned thing is enough." If you keep turning the other cheek, eventually you run out of cheeks. totally support what Nelson did, as well as when he did it.

I do recall Maurice Lucas, and the fellow who commented on the desirability of having him play the post for one game was spot on. However,I would also settle for Christian.

Wander
01-25-2008, 04:11 PM
Nope.

So you haven't seen Va Tech play at all this year. That's all I wanted to know.

Maybe you should stick with talking about feet.

_Gary
01-25-2008, 04:13 PM
No one came close to getting hurt, and no attempt to hurt anyone was made.



Both those statements are extremely debatable.

devildeac
01-25-2008, 04:18 PM
Sorry if these ahve been posted:

After Duke freshman Kyle Singler (16 points) stole the ball from him, they were heading up the floor when Washington pushed Singler in the back with 12:50 left. Singler fell to the floor and Washington was called for an intentional foul.

"It was a physical game," said Washington, who had 12 points before fouling out late in the game. "Somebody pushed me while I was trying to run, and I ended up hitting him and he ended up falling."


When Washington was called for the intentional foul, ESPN -- which aired the game -- showed footage of Washington kicking Lee Melchionni in Tech's home loss to Duke two years ago.

Duke's DeMarcus Nelson fouled out when he was called for a technical after being fouled by Washington late in the game.

"He just got upset," Washington said. "He was saying [something] to me because he thought it was a hard foul. I was going after the ball."

"Both teams were a little frisky," Greenberg said. "I'm sure [Greg] Paulus is probably tired of seeing the bottom of Deron's shorts."

Greenberg was referring to Washington having hurdled Paulus for a layup in the previous meeting.

greenberg=tool. I had little respect for him after his whine to the media and complaints to the acc office after he got tossed from CIS during his 1st visit and claimed the Crazies tried to harm him as he exited stage left and they 'waved' good-bye. Now, that little modicum of respect is gone after his quotes this week. Classless.

OldSchool
01-25-2008, 04:36 PM
Greenberg said. "I'm sure [Greg] Paulus is probably tired of seeing the bottom of Deron's shorts."

I can't think of another coach in the conference who would trash-talk an individual player from another team like that. A 50-year old coach who is supposed to be a leader should be mature enough not to single out and diss some college kid. Leave those kind of comments to the players, Seth.

CDu
01-25-2008, 04:38 PM
I can't think of another coach in the conference who would trash-talk an individual player from another team like that. A 50-year old coach who is supposed to be a leader should be mature enough not to single out and diss some college kid. Leave those kind of comments to the players, Seth.

Agreed. It was a low-class comment by a guy who has had a tendency to not show much class.

Virginian
01-25-2008, 04:41 PM
Nope. But I did stay at a holiday inn express last night. The fouls were even, as called, and nothing on the video tape substantiates the claims that there was anything over the top here.

On the otherhand, I have seen Duke play: these guys, it seems to me, are tough and like that other teams know it. Duke often plays I'm-gonna-stick-my-arm-down-your-throat-and rip-your-lungs-out-type defense which is designed to take opposing players out of their games both mentally and physically. Freshmen, in particular, on an undermanned and clearly overmatched team are vulnerable. Stuff happens.

No one came close to getting hurt, and no attempt to hurt anyone was made.

Just curious, say you were in VT's shoes, dare I even say Seth's. Your strategy would be what? Tell your guys to surrender to the intimidation? I don't think so.

When Washington shoved Singler and was called for the intentional foul, he hit Singler from behind when Singler was running at top speed. Singler hit the floor hard and went head over heels. Even the local papers that kiss VT butt all day every day described it as an uncessary foul and refuted Washington's claim that he was pushed into Singler, reporting there was no one close enough to Washington to make that happen.

And since when is good defense "intimidation" that the other team must not "surrender to?" Covering a guy all over the floor (Duke's approach) is not the same as undercutting a guy when he's up in the air and vulnerable (VT's approach). Just ask the refs; they didn't see it as the same. And when even Patrick and Elmore complain about the over-the-top play of Washington and his cohorts you KNOW it's bad and unusual stuff.

dukeman28428
01-25-2008, 04:48 PM
I have no respect for Seth Greenberg. He came into Cameron without class when he claimed he was threatened by our fans during his first visit. I was there and he was wrong. He showed this lack of class again in his post game interview last night. His players are dirty and he condones it. He and his players got what they deserved last night.....a good old fashion rear end kicking!!!! A good coach would have called Washington aside last night and told him to play ball and quit trying to start a fight, quit acting or sit on the bench. Greenberg did not do this and this tells me he does not care. GO DUKE

greybeard
01-25-2008, 05:11 PM
Greybeard,

You apparently have a plausible explanation under which each of Deron Washington's controversial actions on the court can be cast as innocuous, if not a justifiable response to some instigation by a Duke player, so I think it's pointless to elaborate on what I perceive as a distinction between playing tough and deliberately being a punk in an attempt to provoke a reaction that might take someone out of their game. But since you are an admirer of Seth Greenberg, I'm curious whether you find his postgame quip that "I'm sure Paulus is probably tired of seeing the bottom of Deron's shorts" to be "engaging and insightful."

I already spoke to that. I do not think it was intended to disparage Paulus, nor did it. On the other hand, it might have been a reference to a perception on the coach's part that Paulus was playing with an edge, as were a lot of people. To the extent that it was, I said with appropriate emphasis, that the coach was out of line.

These acts by Washington that you and talking heads in the media would label as "controversial" I do not. Like I said, my principal point has and remains that the theme on this thread that Duke players can properly be seen as playing "good hard defense" belies a ferocity on defense that is a Duke trademark, and a swagger that seems to say to oppponents, we may not be tall but that don't mean we ain't tough. Duke stands tall in its ability to scare the pants off its opponents and is not at all concerned if they accomplish that task and their opponents wilt and don't give Duke their best.

Seems to me that Duke walked off that court last night with mission accomplished. I doubt that any of them is concerned with whether Washington or anyone else tried to throw a brush back pitch or not.

Paulus, in particular, reminds me of Frank Robinson in that regard. While others might have hit the dirt, if someone threw high and tight, Frank would lean back, but only to lull the pitcher into a false sense of security, and then reach out over the plate to hit a low outside fastball over the fence in right. That's Paulus in a nutshell. Demarcus too.

Duke is not going to vie for a national championship approaching the game with the perspective that you and other fans would project on them. They know it and Seth knows it and so do his players. The talking heads in the media need something to talk about; since nobody went out with somebody beautiful or got arrested last night, Washington's rough play will have to do.

What I want to know is, what is it called when an NFL owner, GM, and coach send a guy out onto a field of play who had knee surgery 6 days earlier just so he could bend his knee without it killing him and even though he had, hello, no ACL? The games we play are rough, all of them, and Duke plays rough too.

Stray Gator
01-25-2008, 05:31 PM
I already spoke to that. I do not think it was intended to disparage Paulus, nor did it. On the other hand, it might have been a reference to a perception on the coach's part that Paulus was playing with an edge, as were a lot of people. To the extent that it was, I said with appropriate emphasis, that the coach was out of line.

These acts by Washington that you and talking heads in the media would label as "controversial" I do not. Like I said, my principal point has and remains that the theme on this thread that Duke players can properly be seen as playing "good hard defense" belies a ferocity on defense that is a Duke trademark, and a swagger that seems to say to oppponents, we may not be tall but that don't mean we ain't tough. Duke stands tall in its ability to scare the pants off its opponents and is not at all concerned if they accomplish that task and their opponents wilt and don't give Duke their best.

Seems to me that Duke walked off that court last night with mission accomplished. I doubt that any of them is concerned with whether Washington or anyone else tried to throw a brush back pitch or not.

Paulus, in particular, reminds me of Frank Robinson in that regard. Will others might hit the dirt, if someone threw high and tight. Frank might lean back but only to lull the pitcher into a false sense of security and then reach out over the plate to hit a low outside fastball over the fence in right.

Duke is not going to vie for a national championship approaching the game with the perspective that you and other fans would project on them. They know it and Seth knows it and so do his players. The talking heads in the media need something to talk about; since nobody went out with somebody beautiful or got arrested last night, Washington's rough play will have to do.

What I want to know is, what is it called when an NFL owner, GM, and coach send a guy out onto a field of play who had knew surgery 6 days earlier just so he could bend his knee without it killing him and even though he had, hello, no ACL? The games we play are rough, all of them, and Duke plays rough too.

Like I said, I'm not going to debate the distinction between "playing tough" and "being a punk" with you, because it's obvious that we simply draw the line in different places. Suffice it to say that I expect our opponents to play tough because they know Duke plays tough; that's a given in every game we play, at least against conference foes and other highly ranked opponents. I respect that and don't complain about it. But when tough play spills over into deliberate provocation by punkish acts--like trying to barge in on the other team's huddle, purposefully bumping players when passing, throwing a butt out to impede the safe landing of a player who is airborne and off-balance because he is swerving to avoid contact--it goes beyond "showing mental toughness" and "not backing down" IMO. I believe it constitutes unsportsmanlike conduct, and should not be tolerated--and I would feel that way if a Duke player engaged in such misbehavior.

Evidently, a substantial segment of those who viewed the game, including a number of rival fans and commentators who ordinarily are predisposed against Duke, seem to agree that Washington's conduct last night crossed that line. You are certainly entitled to disagree and defend both Washington and Greenberg, but I must say I find your rationales unpersuasive.

billybreen
01-25-2008, 05:34 PM
Evidently, a substantial segment of those who viewed the game, including a number of rival fans and commentators who ordinarily are predisposed against Duke, seem to agree that Washington's conduct last night crossed that line. You are certainly entitled to disagree and defend both Washington and Greenberg, but I must say I find your rationales unpersuasive.

Very well said, Stray.

Indoor66
01-25-2008, 06:08 PM
What I want to know is, what is it called when an NFL owner, GM, and coach send a guy out onto a field of play who had knee surgery 6 days earlier just so he could bend his knee without it killing him and even though he had, hello, no ACL? The games we play are rough, all of them, and Duke plays rough too.

Stupid by oth parties.

fanincali
01-25-2008, 06:17 PM
When Washington shoved Singler and was called for the intentional foul, he hit Singler from behind when Singler was running at top speed. Singler hit the floor hard and went head over heels. Even the local papers that kiss VT butt all day every day described it as an uncessary foul and refuted Washington's claim that he was pushed into Singler, reporting there was no one close enough to Washington to make that happen.


You lose credibility when you say things that didn't happen. Washington never shoved Singler - his hands, arms, whatever, never even came close to Singler. Singler tripped over Washington's knees, or feet, and was on the floor at the top of key. While there is no doubt that Washington was way over-the-top as far as flopping, grabbing, faking fouls, being chippy, it amazes me that Duke fans find it so abhorrable. You do realize that it's exactly that type of play that characterizes Duke bball? Nelson is exactly that type of player with more bball skills and less athleticism.
Should Greenberg have pulled him aside and told him to calm down? Yes.
But to call either of them dirty means you are either upset that someone doesn't back down vs. the Duke legacy or you just aren't really paying attention. I thought it was a good, hard-fought game, physical on both sides. The best team won and I'm sure the Duke players aren't mad at anyone.

Duvall
01-25-2008, 06:36 PM
You lose credibility when you say things that didn't happen.

I'm stunned that this took as long as it did.

Clipsfan
01-25-2008, 06:38 PM
Sorry, I did and I can't. What I see is Demarcus slashing in a sideways slide that causes Washington to duck.

In the Singler play, the guy was clearly frustrated by the no-call that preceeded it. Many teams on the road in the ACC feel like that get jobbed. As fans, we are always losing it, right? Players shouldn't.

First, I disagree with your take on the undercut, as Washington sought out contact then undercut Nelson (IMHO).

Second, teams may feel that they get jobbed on the road...but VT was playing at home!

Virginian
01-26-2008, 04:47 PM
You lose credibility when you say things that didn't happen. Washington never shoved Singler - his hands, arms, whatever, never even came close to Singler. Singler tripped over Washington's knees, or feet, and was on the floor at the top of key. While there is no doubt that Washington was way over-the-top as far as flopping, grabbing, faking fouls, being chippy, it amazes me that Duke fans find it so abhorrable. You do realize that it's exactly that type of play that characterizes Duke bball? Nelson is exactly that type of player with more bball skills and less athleticism.
Should Greenberg have pulled him aside and told him to calm down? Yes.
But to call either of them dirty means you are either upset that someone doesn't back down vs. the Duke legacy or you just aren't really paying attention. I thought it was a good, hard-fought game, physical on both sides. The best team won and I'm sure the Duke players aren't mad at anyone.

It amazes me that you would argue his hands "never even came close to Singler." For the referees called Washington for a foul for hitting Singler. Now perhaps they were wrong, but I looked at it again when I watched the game again on tape last night. Singler was running down the court and Washington was behind him. Washington threw out his arm and Singler went down and the whistle blew.

Now perhaps the arm did NOT hit Singler and maybe their feet DID get tangled but it doesn't look that way on the tape -- to me at least. And it certainly did not look that way to the refereee who was a few feet away. No one gets called for an intentional foul for getting his feet tangled with another player.So how do you say with such certainty that it never happened? I may be wrong and the ref may be wrong, but at the very least so could you.

And please note I did not make any comment about VT being "dirty" or say anything about Duke "legacy" or the other BS you're throwing into your response to my comments. I was only commenting on one play and in response to an earlier poster who argued that nothing Washington did could possibly have hurt anyoine. As for losing credibility, there is the only one person here who obviously has an axe to grind -- that's you.

CDu
01-26-2008, 06:58 PM
It amazes me that you would argue his hands "never even came close to Singler." For the referees called Washington for a foul for hitting Singler. Now perhaps they were wrong, but I looked at it again when I watched the game again on tape last night. Singler was running down the court and Washington was behind him. Washington threw out his arm and Singler went down and the whistle blew.


This part is, I think, incorrect. Washington was in front of Singler and complaining to the refs about the no-call (which was a completely correct no-call). Singler is running to catch up to the play which is in front of him. The two players' legs tangle as Singler passes Washington and Singler starts to fall. Washington (who is running at an angle) stumbles behind Singler as he is passing (and falling). Washington's arms flail. He doesn't appear to make contact with the falling Singler.

What is unknown is whether he's flailing his arms (a) in disgust at the no-call, (b) as a result of losing his balance, or (c) in an attempt to hit Singler. I believe it is due to (b). But, that's certainly up for debate. The things that I'm fairly certain of are that Washington was in front of Singler before the fall, and that the fall was a result of tangling feet/legs as Singler passed Washington.

Virginian
01-26-2008, 07:51 PM
This part is, I think, incorrect. Washington was in front of Singler and complaining to the refs about the no-call (which was a completely correct no-call). Singler is running to catch up to the play which is in front of him. The two players' legs tangle as Singler passes Washington and Singler starts to fall. Washington (who is running at an angle) stumbles behind Singler as he is passing (and falling). Washington's arms flail. He doesn't appear to make contact with the falling Singler.

What is unknown is whether he's flailing his arms (a) in disgust at the no-call, (b) as a result of losing his balance, or (c) in an attempt to hit Singler. I believe it is due to (b). But, that's certainly up for debate. The things that I'm fairly certain of are that Washington was in front of Singler before the fall, and that the fall was a result of tangling feet/legs as Singler passed Washington.

I have just reviewed the tape. At the point when Washington threw out his arm, Singler was already moving down court and was ahead of Washington. Yes, he had been behind Washington, but then started to run down the court while Washington sorta stood still and then threw out his arm(s) -- perhaps only in frustration. At that point, Singler was heading down court and was ahead of Washington. Suddenly Singler goes down hard. The ref blew his whistle and called Washington for a foul for causing Singler's fall.

It's hard if not impossible to say or know for sure if contact was made from that arm/hand (as opposed to foot entanglement) action, but the ref saw it as arm/hand contact, the two TV announcers (Elmore and Patrick) saw it as arm/hand contact -- Elmore, I think it was, suggested that Washington didn't MEAN to hit Singler, that he was just throwing his arms in a show of frustration over the previous play. David Teel, a Va. journalist of established credentials who is a HUGE VT partisan, was at the game and reported that Washington hit Singler.

Maybe all of them are wrong, but I don't think I'm crazy to take their input and my review (several times) of the tape and say that, intentional or not, it appears Washington hit Singler and caused him to fall, thus making the ref's call a reasonable one.

CDu
01-26-2008, 11:12 PM
I have just reviewed the tape. At the point when Washington threw out his arm, Singler was already moving down court and was ahead of Washington. Yes, he had been behind Washington, but then started to run down the court while Washington sorta stood still and then threw out his arm(s) -- perhaps only in frustration. At that point, Singler was heading down court and was ahead of Washington. Suddenly Singler goes down hard. The ref blew his whistle and called Washington for a foul for causing Singler's fall.

It's hard if not impossible to say or know for sure if contact was made from that arm/hand (as opposed to foot entanglement) action, but the ref saw it as arm/hand contact, the two TV announcers (Elmore and Patrick) saw it as arm/hand contact -- Elmore, I think it was, suggested that Washington didn't MEAN to hit Singler, that he was just throwing his arms in a show of frustration over the previous play. David Teel, a Va. journalist of established credentials who is a HUGE VT partisan, was at the game and reported that Washington hit Singler.

Maybe all of them are wrong, but I don't think I'm crazy to take their input and my review (several times) of the tape and say that, intentional or not, it appears Washington hit Singler and caused him to fall, thus making the ref's call a reasonable one.

Yes, the swing of the arm definitely came when Singler had passed Washington. No disagreement there. What I do disagree with is that Singler fell because of the swing. Singler is already falling when the swing occurs (and Washington is stumbling). They tangle legs as Singler passes Washington.

As I said, the swing could have been for any of three reasons (including intent to hit Singler). But I do not believe that the fall was in any way caused by the swing of Washington's arm. For one, Singler is a big strong guy. The swing wasn't hard enough to knock him to the floor given that it's in the same direction he's already running. Singler went down because of a trip.

My disagreement with the previous post was not necessarily the intent (or lack thereof) of Washington's swing. It could very well be that Washington intended to swing at Singler. I really don't know for sure. My post was instead to point out that Washington didn't chase down Singler, and that Singler fell because of a trip, not the swing.

After further reviewing the tape, it definitely looks like the tripping is intentional. Washington definitely steps his right leg in front of Singler demonstratively as Singler runs up court, causing the trip. The swing may be intentional as well (harder to tell), but it wasn't the cause of the fall.

_Gary
01-27-2008, 01:37 PM
I honestly think Washington is a master at trying to do chippy and dirty things but looking like it's all an accident. The tripping thing we are discussing is a perfect example. He argues with the refs and tries hard to make it look like any contact with Singler is accidental, but it clearly isn't. And he did that type of thing over and over and over. Each time he tries to make it look all innocent, when it clearly isn't. That's what I felt he did on the undercut to. He took the push in the back from Lance, and knowing he could exaggerate that and use it as a reason to get closer to Markie, jumped into Nelson. Then after the contact he acts like he has no idea what just happened. He's a sneaky, and dirty, player as far as I'm concerned.


Gary

CDu
01-27-2008, 03:09 PM
I honestly think Washington is a master at trying to do chippy and dirty things but looking like it's all an accident. The tripping thing we are discussing is a perfect example. He argues with the refs and tries hard to make it look like any contact with Singler is accidental, but it clearly isn't. And he did that type of thing over and over and over. Each time he tries to make it look all innocent, when it clearly isn't. That's what I felt he did on the undercut to. He took the push in the back from Lance, and knowing he could exaggerate that and use it as a reason to get closer to Markie, jumped into Nelson. Then after the contact he acts like he has no idea what just happened. He's a sneaky, and dirty, player as far as I'm concerned.


Gary

I wholeheartedly agree with you on this point. I haven't liked him since he was flopping and showing off that slimy grin as a freshman. He hasn't gotten any more likable since.