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DukeHoopsGuru
01-22-2008, 10:45 PM
I was high on Tennessee coming into this game. They might be a mirror of Duke, but I actually think Duke is slightly better. Singler is better than anyone they have at the 4 or 5. One thing about Tennessee that worries more than Duke is they have no one that gets to the rim. No one. At least Duke has Nelson, Henderson (not a true slasher however), and Smith. When the 3 isn't falling who's going to get to the rim for that team? I think player for player Duke is probably the better team.

Classof06
01-22-2008, 11:15 PM
Duke and Tennessee are extremely similar. Both are teams considered to be a bit under-sized. Both pressure the hell out of the ball on defense; both depend on pressure to force turnovers and both love to run out in transition, essentially hiding their lack of size. Both are capable of winning the national title.

I think people give Tennessee the nod right now because they've had a harder schedule thus far (according to the RPI numbers) but I think it's a tossup if we play each other. Who ever has the ball last is going to win, haha. According to Joe Lunardi's bracket, Tennessee is the 1 seed in the East and we're number 2. As I said in another thread, how great of an Elite 8 game would that be?

PS - As good as we are, watching UK surprisingly beat Tennessee, you just can't help but wonder what it would be like having Patterson. He had a monster game tonight (20 and 8) and Jimmy Dykes even mentioned that. After an ad for the VT game Thursday, Dykes said if Duke had Patterson or a solid guy in the middle, we'd be the best team in America, bar none. "They have everything else" -- direct quote. Ahhh well...

heath_harshman4
01-22-2008, 11:34 PM
well put.

while rooting for Kentucky to beat Tennessee to show that Duke does deserve that #1 seed (wow, im getting into seeding in late January, disgusting) I couldn't help but wonder the entire time what it would be like with PP roaming the post. Our offense would be without dead-ends. 3's aren't dropping, drive to the hoop. Can't drive, hit the post. Can't hit the post, work some inside-out offense. Can't I-O, drive and dish for the 3. It would be endless. And some of his blocks...holy cow. not to mention he played the last 4 mins or so with 4 fouls, great job. Oh well, I guess we'll have to live with Singler. :)

DangerDevil
01-22-2008, 11:36 PM
I know that it's still January, but so much for all the arguments about the Vols deserving a #1 seed.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/ncaa/men/viewcast/2008/01/22/index.html?contestId=44123&vendorId=200801220292&vendorVisitTeam=580&vendorHomeTeam=292&pageType=boxscore

Ignatius07
01-22-2008, 11:50 PM
Duke does have slashers - which partly compensates for its lack in size - but if you watched tonight's UT-UK game, you will see that poor perimeter shooting can easily torpedo teams like the Vols and Blue Devils. Neither team really has a true inside presence, but plenty of athletes that love to run. That said, I do feel that Duke plays better perimeter defense, which is key to deny those entry passes to Patterson, et al.

Oriole Way
01-23-2008, 12:00 AM
Watching this game made me extremely depressed.

I have no doubt whatsoever that we would have won a National Championship this year and/or next year if we had been able to land Patrick Patterson.

Ignatius07
01-23-2008, 12:09 AM
I have no doubt whatsoever that we would have won a National Championship this year and/or next year if we had been able to land Patrick Patterson.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. We would be able to withstand scoring droughts much better if we had PP, but "no doubt" that we'd win a title? C'mon. We've seen much better teams than [08 Duke + PP] lose before even the Final Four.

On top of that, we have no idea how it would affect team chemistry. I'm not one of those who was "glad" he didn't come because he said he didn't gel with the guys, but several players this year have talked about the much improved chemistry from last year - we don't know how much that is bolstering this team.

heath_harshman4
01-23-2008, 12:13 AM
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. We would be able to withstand scoring droughts much better if we had PP, but "no doubt" that we'd win a title? C'mon. We've seen much better teams than [08 Duke + PP] lose before even the Final Four.

On top of that, we have no idea how it would affect team chemistry. I'm not one of those who was "glad" he didn't come because he said he didn't gel with the guys, but several players this year have talked about the much improved chemistry from last year - we don't know how much that is bolstering this team.


very very good point.

thats how I have felt this year about Josh McRoberts. I would love to have his scoring/passing/post play ability. but something about the chemistry of this team. It just feels right, like something special is gonna happen. Last year when we were in the top 10 or so, we knew we weren't elite 8 or final 4 material. same as in 2005. we were ranked #1 and even coach K said that that team wasn't the #1 team in the nation. You could make a great argument to why this team is the #3 team in the nation.

lazee
01-23-2008, 12:18 AM
Read the recap and see Lofton hit 5 3's to set the SEC record. Just out of curiosity, will he be able to break JJ's 3-PT record?

SeattleIrish
01-23-2008, 12:31 AM
One thing about Tennessee that worries more than Duke is they have no one that gets to the rim. No one. At least Duke has Nelson, Henderson (not a true slasher however), and Smith.

Henderson isn't a true slasher? I'm not sure I understand that - he sure seems like one to me.

s.i.

Oriole Way
01-23-2008, 01:01 AM
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. We would be able to withstand scoring droughts much better if we had PP, but "no doubt" that we'd win a title? C'mon. We've seen much better teams than [08 Duke + PP] lose before even the Final Four.

On top of that, we have no idea how it would affect team chemistry. I'm not one of those who was "glad" he didn't come because he said he didn't gel with the guys, but several players this year have talked about the much improved chemistry from last year - we don't know how much that is bolstering this team.

It's obviously futile debating something so hypothetical and speculative, but there's a reason K went after Patrick so hard. He would have fit in with this team perfectly. He's a dominant inside force, rebounding and scoring-wise. He passes well both inside and out. He's the only thing Duke truly lacks.

There is also a weak field of elite teams this year. Kansas, UNC, Memphis, UCLA, and they all have serious flaws. Duke would match up more than favorably with all of those teams with a guy like Patterson. The same will be the case next year.

I just feel very strongly about this team being head and shoulders the best team in the country with Patterson on it. And next year it would be a dominant team.

I know it's hard to win it all, and the best team doesn't always win, but I wholeheartedly believe that the reason Duke exits early this year will be because of our interior deficiencies (rebounding and inside scoring). At one point tonight Jimmy Dykes mentioned how the only thing Duke is missing is a strong post player, and he pointed out Patterson as that kind of player. I'm not sure if he knew that we were specifically recruiting him, but his observation couldn't have been more true.

To see Patterson tearing it up is so frustrating. Not only because we'd be better, but because Patterson would be better off as well.

Don't get me wrong, I love this Duke team, and this year has been and will be an exciting season, but I've been bummed out ever since Patterson picked UK because I thought he was a final piece to our puzzle. I feel much more strongly about that now.

NYC Duke Fan
01-23-2008, 02:07 AM
I watched Kentucky beat Tennessee last night and the game that Patrick Patterson had......just the kind of player that Duke so desperately needs. Had he chosen Duke over Kentucky we would be thinking National Championship this year and two-peat if he stayed another year.

Too Bad Coach K and staff couldn't land him.

Oriole Way
01-23-2008, 02:17 AM
I agree... I posted those exact same thoughts in the Tennessee/Kentucky game thread.

Turtleboy
01-23-2008, 04:15 AM
Read the recap and see Lofton hit 5 3's to set the SEC record. Just out of curiosity, will he be able to break JJ's 3-PT record?He has 367. He needs 91 more. Doubtful.

dukemomLA
01-23-2008, 04:29 AM
I'm getting a little disraught about some of the negativity on DBR of late. GET OVER IT,GUYS! As my title says, F--K Patrick P. Who knows. Would he upset the chemistry and balance that our team currently has? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

But in all team sports, chemistry and the joy of playing together causes leaps and bounds over 'the big men' or 'the speedier guys" etc.

Again and again, I've said, "I LOVE this team." I love their grit, I love their communication, I love the fire in their eyes, I love that everyone supports each other, I love that no one on this team cares who 'starts.' They are truly a TEAM. Exceptional. Deserving of our undying praise.

So, let's STOP this crap about 'who we missed.' Geez, guys.

Lulu
01-23-2008, 08:02 AM
With what everyone is saying about loving this team and not missing PP one bit. That's basically saying you aren't happy with the Thomas/Zoubek combo. This team is fun to watch and I wouldn't want to mess with that formula one bit. Perhaps it's even to our benefit only having "secondary" post players (only in the sense that we know Thomas and Zoubek aren't "all-american" or "all-acc" candidates). In fact, I hate to think it, but I can almost imagine that if we did have an all-american big man he might have been our one guy pulling down almost 40 minutes a game, drastically slowing us down, and eating up nearly every possession at the end of close games. I'll gladly take this team instead.

And even though I was admittedly a little upset with our recruiting misses earlier in the season, I have to say I'm almost happy about it now. Bringing back this same teams sans Nelson (who we'll miss, yes, but that's how it goes) is very exciting and I'm just so happy to finally have a team that's fun to watch and root for this year that I'll take it over the mere possibility of having a team that might have been a little better suited for a championship. This has been one of the best year-to-year changes. The ability to defend other bigs is all I really want for this team.

Saratoga2
01-23-2008, 08:43 AM
With what everyone is saying about loving this team and not missing PP one bit. That's basically saying you aren't happy with the Thomas/Zoubek combo. This team is fun to watch and I wouldn't want to mess with that formula one bit. Perhaps it's even to our benefit only having "secondary" post players (only in the sense that we know Thomas and Zoubek aren't "all-american" or "all-acc" candidates). In fact, I hate to think it, but I can almost imagine that if we did have an all-american big man he might have been our one guy pulling down almost 40 minutes a game, drastically slowing us down, and eating up nearly every possession at the end of close games. I'll gladly take this team instead.

And even though I was admittedly a little upset with our recruiting misses earlier in the season, I have to say I'm almost happy about it now. Bringing back this same teams sans Nelson (who we'll miss, yes, but that's how it goes) is very exciting and I'm just so happy to finally have a team that's fun to watch and root for this year that I'll take it over the mere possibility of having a team that might have been a little better suited for a championship. This has been one of the best year-to-year changes. The ability to defend other bigs is all I really want for this team.

Watching Patterson eat up Tennessee inside makes one appreciate what a strong athletic player can do, especially against an undersized team, such as Tennessee. In looking at our own guys, Thomas in particular is about the same height as Patterson and is athletic as well but is not quite as strong at this point in his career. Thomas can add the strength and if he gets a little confidence back, and works on his offensive game, he can improve greatly. I am rooting for him to do just that, and at least make a part of the improvemnt during the rest of January and into Feb./Mar.

Zoubek is an entirely different player and with him healthy, we can match up against some of the bigger players. He will get points and rebounds and can deter some scoring inside.

Between the two of them, if we were to get 12 points and 8 rebounds a game, it would be a big help and make us even harder to beat. Lets support for the guys we have.

Carlos
01-23-2008, 08:50 AM
"Patrick Patterson is not walking through that door." - Rick Pitino (sort of)

"I hope that you will support who we are, not who we are not." - Norman Dale

BTW - for symmetry, can we change this thread title to "Tennessee lost to who?" or "Kentucky beat who?"

devildeac
01-23-2008, 08:56 AM
Watching Patterson eat up Tennessee inside makes one appreciate what a strong athletic player can do, especially against an undersized team, such as Tennessee. In looking at our own guys, Thomas in particular is about the same height as Patterson and is athletic as well but is not quite as strong at this point in his career. Thomas can add the strength and if he gets a little confidence back, and works on his offensive game, he can improve greatly. I am rooting for him to do just that, and at least make a part of the improvemnt during the rest of January and into Feb./Mar.

Zoubek is an entirely different player and with him healthy, we can match up against some of the bigger players. He will get points and rebounds and can deter some scoring inside.

Between the two of them, if we were to get 12 points and 8 rebounds a game, it would be a big help and make us even harder to beat. Lets support for the guys we have.

In addition to the 12/8 we need/desire from that position, don't forget the 8-10 fouls they would eat up, too, hopefully protecting Singler during end game situations. If Dave could add a few points and boards, the production from that position looks even better.

DukePA
01-23-2008, 09:04 AM
I'm getting a little disraught about some of the negativity on DBR of late. GET OVER IT,GUYS! As my title says, F--K Patrick P. Who knows. Would he upset the chemistry and balance that our team currently has? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

But in all team sports, chemistry and the joy of playing together causes leaps and bounds over 'the big men' or 'the speedier guys" etc.

Again and again, I've said, "I LOVE this team." I love their grit, I love their communication, I love the fire in their eyes, I love that everyone supports each other, I love that no one on this team cares who 'starts.' They are truly a TEAM. Exceptional. Deserving of our undying praise.

So, let's STOP this crap about 'who we missed.' Geez, guys.

I'm with DukemomLA. I am thrilled with this team, and they truly are a team. This is so much more fun than holding my breath because I'm scared that a go-to star player might have a bad night. This has to be an amazing experience for the guys too. It must be awesome to be a part of something so special.

GO DUKE!!!!

Devil in the Blue Dress
01-23-2008, 09:12 AM
As I read through this thread, I wonder if we're all talking about the same team..... you know, the Duke Blue Devils men's team..... great overall record, ratings going up each week, great conference win on Sunday. Enjoy the season! This team is fun to watch and will only get better!

Dukiedevil
01-23-2008, 09:21 AM
There is also a weak field of elite teams this year. Kansas, UNC, Memphis, UCLA, and they all have serious flaws. Duke would match up more than favorably with all of those teams with a guy like Patterson. The same will be the case next year.



While I agree with you about UNC and UCLA (to an extent), I'm curious about the "serious flaws" you see in Memphis and Kansas. I guess you could say that Memphis won'thave played the toughest schedule, but c'mon... these guys are just killing teams.

AtlDuke72
01-23-2008, 10:40 AM
Watching this game made me extremely depressed.

I have no doubt whatsoever that we would have won a National Championship this year and/or next year if we had been able to land Patrick Patterson.


Yeah, and if Billy McCaffrey had just stayed at Duke we would have won back to back championships.

Indoor66
01-23-2008, 10:46 AM
Watching this game made me extremely depressed.

I have no doubt whatsoever that we would have won a National Championship this year and/or next year if we had been able to land Patrick Patterson.

Are both seasons over already? What did I miss? :rolleyes:

Devils8780
01-23-2008, 11:10 AM
If I had my choice between McRoberts and Patterson, I might go McRoberts. I think it's a chemistry thing. Loved his passing from the post, especially. And his energy.

Cool to see Patterson eat up Tennessee though. I'm bummed to see the Vols' Duke Crews go down earlier this season. They're definitely not as strong inside without him. I had a chance to see him play AAU ball teamed with a couple of ACC boys in Eric Hayes and Lewis Witcher, as well as Georgetown's Vernon Macklin and Villanova's Scottie Reynolds and he was the motor of that team.

DukeDevilDeb
01-23-2008, 11:19 AM
If I had my choice between McRoberts and Patterson, I might go McRoberts. I think it's a chemistry thing. Loved his passing from the post, especially. And his energy.

Cool to see Patterson eat up Tennessee though. I'm bummed to see the Vols' Duke Crews go down earlier this season. They're definitely not as strong inside without him. I had a chance to see him play AAU ball teamed with a couple of ACC boys in Eric Hayes and Lewis Witcher, as well as Georgetown's Vernon Macklin and Villanova's Scottie Reynolds and he was the motor of that team.

You would PICK McRoberts because of chemistry? Seems to me that lots of folks are saying that the team chemistry is substantially better than last year's principally because McRoberts isn't there....

Classof06
01-23-2008, 12:42 PM
I have no problem with our team right now. In fact, I couldn't be happier with the way the season has gone thus far.

I'm just saying that if you watched the UT-UK game last night, you couldn't help but wonder. That's all. There's no need to get defensive. The fact that it even came out of Jimmy Dykes mouth, while he's in the middle of a national broadcast in a completely different game, should tell you it's probably natural for Duke fans who were watching the game to wonder about life with PP. Again, wonder; that's all. Nobody's trashing the kids on our team this year, they've done a phenomenal job.

It's just so painstakingly obvious that Patterson's the one piece Duke is missing.

CDu
01-23-2008, 01:10 PM
You would PICK McRoberts because of chemistry? Seems to me that lots of folks are saying that the team chemistry is substantially better than last year's principally because McRoberts isn't there....

I tend to agree with the previous poster, though chemistry isn't the word I'd use. I think the chemistry card is a red herring to begin with. I have no evidence to support my hunch on this, but I think that the chemistry problem last year was a function of McRoberts not handling losing well. Well, this team is a lot more talented/deep/experienced than last year's team, and they've been more successful. So of course they're going to have better chemistry. My hunch is that the same would be true if they had McRoberts. This team is designed in a manner that would better fit with McRoberts' skills, and McRoberts' skills would be a great fit with this team.

Obviously, there's no way to test my hunch. We can't put this year's team with McRoberts last year, and we can't put McRoberts with this year's team this year. So we can't do a parallel comparison, and all we're left with is speculation.

Oriole Way
01-23-2008, 01:41 PM
While I agree with you about UNC and UCLA (to an extent), I'm curious about the "serious flaws" you see in Memphis and Kansas. I guess you could say that Memphis won'thave played the toughest schedule, but c'mon... these guys are just killing teams.

Memphis will be done in by their awful free throw shooting. Once they play a tough opponent that can play some defense and make some shots, they will be at a big disadvantage down the stretch in close games. As you mentioned, they haven't played a strong schedule.

Kansas lacks a dominant player (someone like Derrick Rose, Love, Hans, Ellington even) that can be a go-to scorer to take over games or keep them in games when they struggle. Don't get me wrong, they're awesome, very well-balanced. But they haven't played a very tough schedule either. I also don't think they play well enough on the road to beat top 10-15 teams on neutral floors, at least well enough to win it all.

CDu
01-23-2008, 02:23 PM
Memphis will be done in by their awful free throw shooting. Once they play a tough opponent that can play some defense and make some shots, they will be at a big disadvantage down the stretch in close games. As you mentioned, they haven't played a strong schedule.

Kansas lacks a dominant player (someone like Derrick Rose, Love, Hans, Ellington even) that can be a go-to scorer to take over games or keep them in games when they struggle. Don't get me wrong, they're awesome, very well-balanced. But they haven't played a very tough schedule either. I also don't think they play well enough on the road to beat top 10-15 teams on neutral floors, at least well enough to win it all.

So who do you think CAN win it all? Everybody has big flaws. I personally think that Kansas is the least flawed of any of the teams. Are they a dominant force like last year's Florida or Ohio State teams? No. But nobody is this year.

Saratoga2
01-23-2008, 03:06 PM
So who do you think CAN win it all? Everybody has big flaws. I personally think that Kansas is the least flawed of any of the teams. Are they a dominant force like last year's Florida or Ohio State teams? No. But nobody is this year.

To me, both Kansas and Memphis are a cut above most teams and really deserve their rankings. After them, there appears to be a group of strong but not dominant teams. That group has to include Duke, UNC, UCLA and probably another 7 or 8 that have distinguished themselves. This second group might be beaten on any given night but should have overall records putting them in the top 4 seeds.

It is a long season ahead and injuries and development may change relative positions, but I see Duke remaining as no less than a 3 seed going into the NCAAs.

BlueDevilJay
01-23-2008, 03:12 PM
I know that it's still January, but so much for all the arguments about the Vols deserving a #1 seed.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/ncaa/men/viewcast/2008/01/22/index.html?contestId=44123&vendorId=200801220292&vendorVisitTeam=580&vendorHomeTeam=292&pageType=boxscore

Yeah I read a similar article on ESPN.com yesterday about the Vols being the REAL #1 seed out of the state of TN (said something like "Move over Memphis") I couldn't help but laugh at the guy who wrote it while watching UK finish off TN last night. I tend to watch all their games considering my wife is diehard UK, so I tend to pull for them a bit to keep her happy. We are currently fighting over who our daughter will root for when she grows up (you can see her in my sig) but in that battle, I have struck the latest blow with 5 pics of her wearing my JWill jersey and Duke hat while mommy was out on the town Tuesday night :) Ill post them if this thing will allow attachments of that size.

Indoor66
01-23-2008, 03:22 PM
Yeah I read a similar article on ESPN.com yesterday about the Vols being the REAL #1 seed out of the state of TN (said something like "Move over Memphis") I couldn't help but laugh at the guy who wrote it while watching UK finish off TN last night. I tend to watch all their games considering my wife is diehard UK, so I tend to pull for them a bit to keep her happy. We are currently fighting over who our daughter will root for when she grows up (you can see her in my sig) but in that battle, I have struck the latest blow with 5 pics of her wearing my JWill jersey and Duke hat while mommy was out on the town Tuesday night :) Ill post them if this thing will allow attachments of that size.

Yeah, Tennessee has to survive the coaching of Pearl.

Patrick Yates
01-23-2008, 04:48 PM
I think that Patterson has raised his game tremendously from the start of the season. Part of that is getting used to game speed, but he is playing better and smarter than earlier in the season.

Part of that may be that he is on an untalented team. During the game, they mentioned how he had gone to the coach and asked to really work on his post moves. I applaud him for the work ethic.

I have to wonder if he would be the same player at Duke. He would be good, and a key contributor inside, no doubt.

But, at KY is the man in a way he wouldn't have been at Duke. He gets fed the ball. Part of his learning curve has been trial and error. To date, he has gotten a lot of touches. He has been free to learn through trial and error what works, and what doesn't.

At Duke, he wouldn't have had those chances. KY doesn't really have another viable option. They have to go to him. If he screws up, no big, cause it is not like there are other options on the floor.

At Duke, we do have other options. Lots of them. He would not have had the long leash to foul up, and learn from said foul ups. With our roster, we were going to be perimeter oriented, PP or no PP.

Hey, it has worked out well for PP from a personal stats POV. He is putting up monster numbers on a team that WILL get media coverage, no matter how bad it is. He has improved to the point where he can probably go pro this year, and end up in the lottery. He becomes a one-and-done. At Duke, he would have helped us compete for a national championship. He chose a situation where he could excell personally, no matter how bad the team did. Good for him. Team success obviously means little to him, so I doubt he would have fit in at Duke. We would be better with him, but whatevs.

Patrick Yates

sagegrouse
01-23-2008, 05:00 PM
...Henderson (not a true slasher however)....

You know, Henderson has drawn comparisons to Kobe Bryant -- incredibly explosive but supremely smooth. I can't think of anyone except Jason Williams and Corey Maggette who are at all comparable to Gerald as a slasher since the Grant Hill era.

sagegrouse
'Digging out from under 270 inches of snow this winter'

heath_harshman4
01-23-2008, 06:37 PM
In fact, I couldn't be happier with the way the season has gone thus far.




Maybe a missed setp-back/fadeaway 3 by levance fields in OT at MSG? yeah, that would make me a little happier. lol

DukeHoopsGuru
01-23-2008, 10:25 PM
No I do not believe Henderson is a "true slasher" for 2 reasons: 1) He has such a good mid range game he doesn't have to be; and 2) I don't think his ball handling (especially with his left) is at a point that he can consistently get to the rim.

Don't take that as me saying "Henderson is not good," because that is far from the case. But I do not consider Henderson a slasher per se.