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wisteria
01-16-2008, 11:25 PM
Can anyone confirm this?

Carlos
01-16-2008, 11:38 PM
It's true.

Ignatius07
01-16-2008, 11:43 PM
That was sudden.

uncwdevil
01-16-2008, 11:48 PM
well then, can i get his ticket to the Duke/Carolina game?

watzone
01-17-2008, 12:23 AM
It was very disappointing that he didn't make the UNC visit. He chose Florida over Duke. He had wanted to commit early and Duke thought the had a good chance. Duke was his second choice, not that we care anymore. I suppose this opens up the recruiting of Deshaun Painter or a stud from Michigan.

mepanchin
01-17-2008, 01:31 AM
This sucks but at least it's early enough that we can focus on someone else and at least it's not Boynton or Echenique

DevilCastDownfromDurham
01-17-2008, 02:04 AM
I'd love to make some wry comment re: the recruiting thread, but I'm just sad. This is the second guy who didn't even feel the need to take a visit. Missing on a guy is one thing, but an offhand "meh, no need to hear your pitch, no thanks" is tremendously discouraging.

Hope we can land Ech and Painter.

dyedwab
01-17-2008, 09:45 AM
I'm a Duke alum who made his decision to attend Duke after a visit.

So, this will paint me as a big jerk, but those who have expressed interest in Duke, and then pick another program without a visit are guys I root against, no matter how great a kid they are etc.

yes, this is not logical. yes, this makes me an arrogant, obnoxious, elitist Duke fan. yes I shouldn't hold it against those kids. Whatever. I do. I'll ask for forgiveness on Yom Kippur.

hondoheel
01-17-2008, 10:04 AM
“I’m trying to visit Miami. I’ve been talking to the guys. Something that’s important to me is a diverse culture with a lot of Hispanic people because I’m far away from home. I care about something like that."

This is a quote from Echenique, according to a Terp poster.

Chicago 1995
01-17-2008, 10:13 AM
Can anyone confirm this?

Cause we clearly need some perspective. :rolleyes:

Now we've missed out on the first of the four "targets" and we'll be working from behind with other big men like Painter or Riley. That's a great position to be in. :rolleyes:

And I suspect it's a position we'll be in with at least one of the other three "targets" for this class. And we'll have no backup plan.

77devil
01-17-2008, 10:17 AM
“I’m trying to visit Miami. I’ve been talking to the guys. Something that’s important to me is a diverse culture with a lot of Hispanic people because I’m far away from home. I care about something like that."

This is a quote from Echenique, according to a Terp poster.

Oh gee, a supposed quote from a Twerp. That's a reliable source.

Note to mods: Much of what this person posts is unsubtantiated baiting and trolling. I don't understand why it's tollerated.

Chicago 1995
01-17-2008, 10:23 AM
It's been confirmed on other sites, I believe.

Keep whistling in the dark though. All is well!

Patrick Yates
01-17-2008, 10:44 AM
Murphy had said for a while that Florida was in the lead for his services. When it was brought up here, it was widely discounted.

Perhaps the board needs to be more receptive to things that are valid, instead of dismissing them because the board does not wish thim to be true.

Patrick Yates

hondoheel
01-17-2008, 10:51 AM
Oh gee, a supposed quote from a Twerp. That's a reliable source.

Note to mods: Much of what this person posts is unsubtantiated baiting and trolling. I don't understand why it's tollerated.

I attributed it to a Terp poster so the reader could take it for what it was worth. I would've left off the Terp poster part if I knew the quote to be true.

freedevil
01-17-2008, 10:54 AM
This news just made me laugh out loud.

Please, please, please DBR optimists, lecture me on why my concerns about Duke's recent frontcourt recruiting is misplaced and outrageous.

Great timing to have TWO articles stating that we all need perspective.

And, still, for the record, I'd love to eat crow on this.

CMS2478
01-17-2008, 10:57 AM
This news just made me laugh out loud.

Please, please, please DBR optimists, lecture me on why my concerns about Duke's recent frontcourt recruiting is misplaced and outrageous.

Great timing to have TWO articles stating that we all need perspective.

And, still, for the record, I'd love to eat crow on this.

I consider myself an optimist when it comes to Duke recruiting, but us missing our targest seems to be happening more and more. But we still have 3 left and if we can get Boynton and Enichique (sp?) I will be happy. In other words, my glass is still half full, but it seems someone keeps taking sips when I'm not looking. :(

Troublemaker
01-17-2008, 11:14 AM
Murphy had said for a while that Florida was in the lead for his services. When it was brought up here, it was widely discounted.

Patrick Yates

I'm going to call BS on this unless you can link me. Show me the series of posts where you (I'm assuming you're the "wizened sage" from your post title) reported this and then it was widely discounted.

Because anyone who follows recruiting knew that Murphy was the longshot of the 4 targets, so I doubt you broke the news. If yesterday someone had told me that one of the Group of 4 would commit elsewhere today, and I had to guess which, I would've put all my money on Murphy. I'm pretty sure the people who follow recruiting like watzone would've done the same.

So, although you were probably kidding, you're not a sage, and it's sort of silly to even begin to couch the acts of reading recruiting articles and regurgitating them in those terms. It ain't rocket surgery.

Troublemaker
01-17-2008, 11:29 AM
As for the news itself, this makes Echenique a ridiculously important recruit to get, and I DO wish there were more offers out there to other big men. That said, if the staff bats 1.000 from here on out and Ech, Boynton, and McDonald all commit, then it would be a great recruiting season with needs having been met.

See, the question is: does Duke need 2 big men from this class, or is 1 enough? I would say 2 would be nice but 1 is enough (but also necessary, making Ech very important to nab).

The 2010 roster would have Jr. King and Sr. Thomas at the 4 and Sr. Zoubek and Fr. Echenique at the 5 even if Singler is gone. Then, one year later, Thomas and Zoubek go away and you'd still be left with Sr. King at the 4 and So. Echenique at the 5 but making it necessary to get 1 or 2 big men from the class of 2010 to serve as freshman backups. Hopefully So. Czyz will have developed enough to pitch in a bit as well.

Losing Murphy increases the importance of getting a big from 2010 but as long as Echenique comes, things are fine. Echenique MUST come, though, and that's where it's scary to not have multiple offers.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
01-17-2008, 12:07 PM
Backups are neat.

The idea that "Ech is enough" is, to me, symptomatic of the problem we've been having. How many people thought: "Josh is enough. He's the #1 overall prospect, has height, hops, and can see the floor so well." He wasn't enough.

At some level even Shel, as great as he was, wasn't enough. He spent his entire career in danger of quick fouls and we were absolutely blessed that he never had a major injury. Still, in four successive seasons we flamed out when other big guys (Collison, Okafor, M. State's front line, Big Baby/Thomas) took advantage of this liability. One real post player (and I say again, after 1.5 years we have no one I consider a legit 5 right now) is subject to injury, fatigue, foul trouble, not developing, etc. (Not that we've seen any of these at Duke . . .)

Ech is an overwhelmingly important priority and would make us worlds better. But leaving him on an island is an invitation for trouble. Give me Ech and one more (Painter?) and I'll feel good.

The1Bluedevil
01-17-2008, 12:14 PM
Never thought Duke would be so desperate that the 45th ranked player (i know rankings aren't always accurate) would be the difference in legitimately competing for a title.

Troublemaker
01-17-2008, 12:18 PM
Backups are neat.

The idea that "Ech is enough" is, to me, symptomatic of the problem we've been having. How many people thought: "Josh is enough. He's the #1 overall prospect, has height, hops, and can see the floor so well." He wasn't enough.

At some level even Shel, as great as he was, wasn't enough. He spent his entire career in danger of quick fouls and we were absolutely blessed that he never had a major injury. Still, in four successive seasons we flamed out when other big guys (Collison, Okafor, M. State's front line, Big Baby/Thomas) took advantage of this liability. One real post player (and I say again, after 1.5 years we have no one I consider a legit 5 right now) is subject to injury, fatigue, foul trouble, not developing, etc. (Not that we've seen any of these at Duke . . .)

Ech is an overwhelmingly important priority and would make us worlds better. But leaving him on an island is an invitation for trouble. Give me Ech and one more (Painter?) and I'll feel good.

Who said he'd be on an island? The whole point of my post was to examine the roster situation and show that he'd have help, thus making 1 enough.

SilkyJ
01-17-2008, 12:56 PM
I think Coach K has adapted well to recent changes in the dynamics of college ball with lots of players leaving early, transfers, etc. and I think the next change we will see is a move away from only offering 4 players and putting all our eggs in that basket and move more to the method of offering 8 players for 4 spots, 1st come 1st serve.

at least I hope so, cause "6i" when it comes to big men these days...



yes, this is not logical. yes, this makes me an arrogant, obnoxious, elitist Duke fan. yes I shouldn't hold it against those kids. Whatever. I do. I'll ask for forgiveness on Yom Kippur.

potd


It's been confirmed on other sites, I believe.

Keep whistling in the dark though. All is well!

"I believe" Well thats some real confirmation right thar.

got yo' back daddyhooooo

hondoheel
01-17-2008, 01:03 PM
Here's a guy UNC was looking at before the Henson and Wear commitments that maybe Duke should offer. Local kid too:

http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=3073045

CMS2478
01-17-2008, 01:25 PM
Here's a guy UNC was looking at before the Henson and Wear commitments that maybe Duke should offer. Local kid too:

http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=3073045

I saw him play at the Glaxo and although he is very smooth in the post. He is strictly a post player and needs to add a lot of muscle. When he got the ball he could score it, but he gets pushed around a lot. But he does still have another year to get bigger in High-School, but I am not sure he is Duke caliber, but we might not have any other options. :(

Patrick Yates
01-17-2008, 02:34 PM
I have two questions.

One: Does K lay off of his former assistants too much?

After getting Battier out of Michigan, we largely stopped recruiting the state once Tommy got hired there. We even backed off of Blanchard once Tommy got hired and got in on him.

I don't have any other proof, but there is an interesting development in Oklahoma. Everyone knows that our last big from the state worked out OK. And, until 2 years ago Duke was widely mentioned as a leader for Daniel Orton, a 6-10 big bodied banger who is very much in the Shelton mold.

Then, Capel, a former Dukie, gets hired as the HC at the Univ of Oklahoma. Orton is a big target for Capel. Duke suddenly "cools" on Orton. Maybe there was another reason for the cooling. If anyone knows, that would be awesome. But, I can't think of another reason for us to cool on this guy. We know that K hates going against his former players. Maybe he doesn't like recruiting against them, especially when a Duke victory would be a real blow to the former player/current HC.

Question 2. What is the problem?

This marks 4 straight years where important post targets have shunned Duke. And, 2 straight years when the recruits have done so without even visiting Duke and fabled CIS. What is the problem? Cause it has to be obvious that there are huge minutes available in the post. Even the most myopic potential post would have to know this. It is mentioned on every broadcast and in every article about Duke.

So why are we suddenly so repulsive to recruits? I have theories, which have been stated on numerous occaisions, so I won't repeat them. But I am genuinely asking other posters why post recruits are not swarming to Duke. We are a post away from being a NC contender. Why aren't they lining up?

Patrick Yates

ps. Trouble, I am not saying that I was the progenitor of the Murphy to Florida rumor. But, in the UNC recruiting avalanche thread when I stated that Murphy was a Fl lean, I was scoffed at. That was the purpose of my post. Yes, to some, it WAS obvious that EM would never suit up for Duke.

gotham devil
01-17-2008, 02:53 PM
I have two questions.

One: Does K lay off of his former assistants too much?

After getting Battier out of Michigan, we largely stopped recruiting the state once Tommy got hired there. We even backed off of Blanchard once Tommy got hired and got in on him.

I don't have any other proof, but there is an interesting development in Oklahoma. Everyone knows that our last big from the state worked out OK. And, until 2 years ago Duke was widely mentioned as a leader for Daniel Orton, a 6-10 big bodied banger who is very much in the Shelton mold.

Then, Capel, a former Dukie, gets hired as the HC at the Univ of Oklahoma. Orton is a big target for Capel. Duke suddenly "cools" on Orton. Maybe there was another reason for the cooling. If anyone knows, that would be awesome. But, I can't think of another reason for us to cool on this guy. We know that K hates going against his former players. Maybe he doesn't like recruiting against them, especially when a Duke victory would be a real blow to the former player/current HC.

Question 2. What is the problem?

This marks 4 straight years where important post targets have shunned Duke. And, 2 straight years when the recruits have done so without even visiting Duke and fabled CIS. What is the problem? Cause it has to be obvious that there are huge minutes available in the post. Even the most myopic potential post would have to know this. It is mentioned on every broadcast and in every article about Duke.

So why are we suddenly so repulsive to recruits? I have theories, which have been stated on numerous occaisions, so I won't repeat them. But I am genuinely asking other posters why post recruits are not swarming to Duke. We are a post away from being a NC contender. Why aren't they lining up?

Patrick Yates

ps. Trouble, I am not saying that I was the progenitor of the Murphy to Florida rumor. But, in the UNC recruiting avalanche thread when I stated that Murphy was a Fl lean, I was scoffed at. That was the purpose of my post. Yes, to some, it WAS obvious that EM would never suit up for Duke.

Orton is not considered "Duke material" for reasons that have nothing to do with the basketball court. It isn't as a favor to a former player.

How do your theories cope with the fact that our primary competition for current players McClure and Paulus was former assistant Mike Brey?

Troublemaker
01-17-2008, 03:16 PM
What is the problem? Cause it has to be obvious that there are huge minutes available in the post. Even the most myopic potential post would have to know this. It is mentioned on every broadcast and in every article about Duke.

So why are we suddenly so repulsive to recruits? I have theories, which have been stated on numerous occasions, so I won't repeat them. But I am genuinely asking other posters why post recruits are not swarming to Duke.


So have you discarded your "Thomas and Zoubek are just good enough to scare away potential post recruits" theory? Because now it seems you think minutes are readily available. Which I agree with, as I don't think any post recruit will be scared off by lack of available playing time. But, I only point this out because you seem to post opinions on a whim, many of which turn out to be contradictions.

As for why I think post players aren't swarming to Duke, it's been said already, but I think Duke does need to evaluate and offer more players. If Echenique doesn't end up a Blue Devil, I think that would be the last straw and the coaching staff will begin to cast that wider net that many want. It's an obvious change that must be made if Echenique goes elsewhere.

DukeBlood
01-17-2008, 03:36 PM
Now that Murphy is off to Florida, He is out of the picture. At least he is out of the picture EARLY. Gives the Duke staff time to go after other players.

Who is the next post player for Duke to go after hard? Is it Painter?

I dont think the sky is falling. I keep hearing we are the leader for Boynton(Dukes #1 target?) and in great shape with Echenique(Possibly the leader and #2 target).

Patrick Yates
01-17-2008, 05:02 PM
So have you discarded your "Thomas and Zoubek are just good enough to scare away potential post recruits" theory? Because now it seems you think minutes are readily available. Which I agree with, as I don't think any post recruit will be scared off by lack of available playing time. But, I only point this out because you seem to post opinions on a whim, many of which turn out to be contradictions.

As for why I think post players aren't swarming to Duke, it's been said already, but I think Duke does need to evaluate and offer more players. If Echenique doesn't end up a Blue Devil, I think that would be the last straw and the coaching staff will begin to cast that wider net that many want. It's an obvious change that must be made if Echenique goes elsewhere.

Earlier, I had thought that Zoubs and LT might improve enough to scare off potential recruits. I think it is pretty obvious that is not the case, and likely won't be the case next year. Several people thought they would suffice, but that is a harder argument to make these days. And I am aware that we are winning, but we will need a post presence at some point.

Patrick Yates.

Bob Green
01-17-2008, 05:08 PM
Oh gee, a supposed quote from a Twerp. That's a reliable source.

Note to mods: Much of what this person posts is unsubtantiated baiting and trolling. I don't understand why it's tollerated.

hondoheel's post is accurate. Review this link (http://njmg.typepad.com/zagsblog/2007/11/latest-on-echen.html), which contains this quote:


"He still wants to visit Miami because of its proximity to Venezuela and the Hispanic community down there,"

Adam Zagoria is very connected to the recruiting scene in the Northeast. Oh, and here is a link to a more recent article (http://njmg.typepad.com/zagsblog/2007/12/duke-offers-ech.html) on Echenique.


We think there's a strong chance Echenique ends up at Duke, although Miami, Maryland, Villanova, Penn, Rutgers and others are involved.

jimsumner
01-17-2008, 05:31 PM
"Daniel Orton, a 6-10 big bodied banger who is very much in the Shelton mold."

Shelton? Now that's a new one.

Note that Duke very much went after Blake Griffin shortly after Capel took over in Norman.

As Gotham pointed out, Duke and Brey have gone head-to-head on several prospects.

K doesn't want to play his former assistants but he'll recruit against them in a heartbeat.

dkbaseball
01-17-2008, 05:59 PM
Because anyone who follows recruiting knew that Murphy was the longshot of the 4 targets, so I doubt you broke the news. If yesterday someone had told me that one of the Group of 4 would commit elsewhere today, and I had to guess which, I would've put all my money on Murphy. I'm pretty sure the people who follow recruiting like watzone would've done the same.

Could be wrong, but I believe Jim Sumner recently said we were in "great shape" with Murphy, "good shape" with Echenique.

But count me in the Jim/Al "perspective" camp on recruiting. And keep in mind a few points. First, K's philosophy of recruiting is perhaps his most dearly earned achievement in coaching. He cast a wide net in '81, and finished second on everybody. You'd think he would have cast an even wider net the next year, with quite possibly his career riding on getting a good recruiting class. Instead he re-evaluates his philosophy and decides to focus only on the players he most wants and thinks will be the best fit. That's maybe the gutsiest move I've ever heard of in coaching, and it paid off.

A second point: You don't need a roster of blue chip players to compete for a national title. I've followed Bo Ryan's Wisconsin program carefully, and they have an interesting recruiting philosophy. They look almost exclusively at players ranked around 75-150. I believe the only McDonalds AA besides Brian Butch they've ever recruited was Scheyer. They evaluate the hell out of players, try to lock them up early, and spend less than half the amount of money on recruiting of any other school in the Big Ten. Then they coach the hell out of them. It's been working out pretty well.

Finally, consider a player such as Brian Davis, a major contributor to two national champion teams, who scarcely showed up on the radar of any recruiting gurus. Granted, it may be harder to find a diamond-in-the-rough big late in the recruiting cycle, but there is the option of coaching up raw bigs and getting production out of them after two or three years. Guess I'd be in the camp that thinks Duke could do a better job of this with projects who aren't ready to play.

Patrick Yates
01-17-2008, 06:47 PM
A second point: You don't need a roster of blue chip players to compete for a national title. I've followed Bo Ryan's Wisconsin program carefully, and they have an interesting recruiting philosophy. They look almost exclusively at players ranked around 75-150. I believe the only McDonalds AA besides Brian Butch they've ever recruited was Scheyer. They evaluate the hell out of players, try to lock them up early, and spend less than half the amount of money on recruiting of any other school in the Big Ten. Then they coach the hell out of them. It's been working out pretty well.

Finally, consider a player such as Brian Davis, a major contributor to two national champion teams, who scarcely showed up on the radar of any recruiting gurus. Granted, it may be harder to find a diamond-in-the-rough big late in the recruiting cycle, but there is the option of coaching up raw bigs and getting production out of them after two or three years. Guess I'd be in the camp that thinks Duke could do a better job of this with projects who aren't ready to play.

First, when has Wisconsin ever contended for a national title? I must have missed all those Elite 8 and FF runs. If we are to the level where we even consider Wisconsin to be successful, shoot me. Has Ryan ever been to the FF? Or even seriously threatend to do so? He is a conference contender, year in and year out, that never does anything of note in March, which is where elite teams measure success.

Second. Brian Davis was good. Keep in mind that he played with Laetner, Hill, and Hurley. The diamond in the roughs are great, and necessary. But only when they either blossom into superstars, which Davis wasn't, or when they are surrounded by superstars, which Davis was. Could he have carried a team. No Way. But he was a nice supporting player on a great team. But there were great, and I mean all time great, players on that squad. We got nobody like any of those guys on this team. Hendo and Singler, maybe in a few years. Scheyer and Smith are possibilities to get there. But there are no superstars like Davis played with on this team right now, and none on the horizon.

Patrick Yates

yancem
01-17-2008, 06:54 PM
Exactly how good do people think that Echenique is? I know that he has the big body that everyone so desperately wants but we are pinning our hope on this guy and he is ranked in the same ballpark as Boateng. I know that rankings don't mean a whole lot and that the '09 class should be stronger than the '05 class but I'm wondering if he will be good enough to be an impact freshman. Has anyone seen him play that can provide some insight into how good he might be.

Clipsfan
01-17-2008, 06:56 PM
First, when has Wisconsin ever contended for a national title? I must have missed all those Elite 8 and FF runs. If we are to the level where we even consider Wisconsin to be successful, shoot me. Has Ryan ever been to the FF? Or even seriously threatend to do so?

I'm not going to disagree with your basic premise that we don't aim for the same level of success in the tourney that Wisconsin has had, but they're still a program that I respect. They appear to do things the right way, and play hard. And for the record, they were in the Final Four in 2000.

jimsumner
01-17-2008, 07:15 PM
"must have missed all those Elite 8 and FF runs"

Evidently. In addition to the 2000 FF, they made the Sweet Sixteen in 2003 and the Elite Eight in 2005, losing to the Heels by six. They've made the NCAA Tournament nine consecutive seasons and had the consenus national POY runner-up last season. That's a pretty solid program.

For the record, Duke was stunned at Murphy's committment. By all accounts, so was Florida. Duke had him scheduled to take an official visit for the Carolina game. Chew on that for awhile. He turned down a chance to take an official visit to Cameron Indoor Stadium for a game between Duke and North Carolina.

heyman25
01-17-2008, 08:19 PM
Question is Jim Sumner were you surprised. You seem to think those who raise questions about Duke's recruiting are loose with the facts about Duke b ball. You can look up everything in the record books, but in the present Monroe and Murphy did not even make an official visit. Our freshmen are great,but Thomas and Zoubek are big ? marks. And I don't know who we are after except what I read. From what I see and read we need a rebounding defensive player in the paint.If he can score its a bonus.

Jumbo
01-17-2008, 08:30 PM
Murphy had said for a while that Florida was in the lead for his services. When it was brought up here, it was widely discounted.

Perhaps the board needs to be more receptive to things that are valid, instead of dismissing them because the board does not wish thim to be true.

Patrick Yates

You also said the fact that his dad played at B.C. would be a big factor. Good call.

dkbaseball
01-17-2008, 08:34 PM
"must have missed all those Elite 8 and FF runs"

Evidently. In addition to the 2000 FF, they made the Sweet Sixteen in 2003 and the Elite Eight in 2005, losing to the Heels by six. They've made the NCAA Tournament nine consecutive seasons and had the consenus national POY runner-up last season. That's a pretty solid program.

Wisconsin also was ranked number one for a couple of weeks last year, easily handled Pitt and Marquette at Marquette, took one from Ohio State. They turned a three star recruit into an NBA player -- Devin Harris, the number five pick in the draft in '04 and currently the Mavs' starting point guard. Under Ryan they've not finished below third in the Big Ten, and Jimmy Dykes said the other day that under Ryan they would never finish as low as 4th or 5th "in any conference."

Duke is always going to get a handful of McD's AAs, some of whom might turn into great players. But they don't need to engage in recruiting nuclear warfare with UNC every year. I think a few more hungry mid-level prospects would benefit the program, if they've been evaluated correctly. Remember the importance of chemistry. The Laettner-Hurley-Hill-Hill-Davis nucleus was regarded as a very solid group of recruits, but no one remotely imagined it would turn into one of the best teams in the history of college basketball.

Jumbo
01-17-2008, 08:34 PM
Backups are neat.

The idea that "Ech is enough" is, to me, symptomatic of the problem we've been having. How many people thought: "Josh is enough. He's the #1 overall prospect, has height, hops, and can see the floor so well." He wasn't enough.

At some level even Shel, as great as he was, wasn't enough. He spent his entire career in danger of quick fouls and we were absolutely blessed that he never had a major injury. Still, in four successive seasons we flamed out when other big guys (Collison, Okafor, M. State's front line, Big Baby/Thomas) took advantage of this liability. One real post player (and I say again, after 1.5 years we have no one I consider a legit 5 right now) is subject to injury, fatigue, foul trouble, not developing, etc. (Not that we've seen any of these at Duke . . .)

Ech is an overwhelmingly important priority and would make us worlds better. But leaving him on an island is an invitation for trouble. Give me Ech and one more (Painter?) and I'll feel good.

This is absurd. Shelden "wasn't enough" because we were a major injury away from being screwed? How would UConn have done without Okafor? LSU without Big Baby? Michigan State without Paul Davis? How would UNC do without Hansbrough now?

You're not going to have multiple stud bigs. Duke only needs one true big in the game at a time anway, given the team's style of play for the past 25 years. Echenique is a very important recruit, and he has to pan out. But I don't expect K to bring in multiple stud big men, nor should anyone else.

dukie8
01-17-2008, 08:36 PM
A second point: You don't need a roster of blue chip players to compete for a national title. I've followed Bo Ryan's Wisconsin program carefully, and they have an interesting recruiting philosophy. They look almost exclusively at players ranked around 75-150. I believe the only McDonalds AA besides Brian Butch they've ever recruited was Scheyer. They evaluate the hell out of players, try to lock them up early, and spend less than half the amount of money on recruiting of any other school in the Big Ten. Then they coach the hell out of them. It's been working out pretty well.

since when has wisconsin been in the national title hunt? you know things are not how they used to be when people now are using wisconsin as a barometer for duke.

dukie8
01-17-2008, 08:41 PM
You're not going to have multiple stud bigs. Duke only needs one true big in the game at a time anway, given the team's style of play for the past 25 years. Echenique is a very important recruit, and he has to pan out. But I don't expect K to bring in multiple stud big men, nor should anyone else.

why not? in 2001, we had battier and boozer. i'd rather have those 2 out there than just 1 plus a role player.

SeattleIrish
01-17-2008, 08:43 PM
So why are we suddenly so repulsive to recruits? I have theories, which have been stated on numerous occaisions, so I won't repeat them. But I am genuinely asking other posters why post recruits are not swarming to Duke. We are a post away from being a NC contender. Why aren't they lining up?

Patrick Yates


PY:

We're now repulsive to recruits? You have surpassed the deep end and are now somewhere towards the bottom of the Marianas Trench.

I can't believe even a "the-glass-is-3/4-empty" poster such as yourself actually believe that.

s.i.:confused:

Jumbo
01-17-2008, 08:45 PM
why not? in 2001, we had battier and boozer. i'd rather have those 2 out there than just 1 plus a role player.

If Shane Battier was a "big man" then so are Singler, King, McClure, Czyz, etc. Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Battier was the quintessential Duke 4.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
01-17-2008, 09:02 PM
Oh, I agree we won't have two guys like Shel (or Carlos/Elton/whoever) but I do think we would be well-served by having a backup who is a semi-legit threat to score/rebound/block/etc. (upperclassman Casey-level, nothing more) I think this was the idea with Shav. Some folks may have been expecting a "twin towers" approach with both on the court at the same time (or with MT I suppose) but my own sense was that we were planning an attack where we always had a stud post on the court but could still deal with injury, foul trouble, etc. In a way that did pay off: Shav struggled with injury his entire career but we still did pretty well since we had two "Duke 5's" as it were. We may not bring in two post guys like that in the same class for a while, but I still think a guy like Casey would have made Shel's career much more comfortable and led to greater success. I would argue that Okafor, Hans, etc do have guys like that, which is something that gives them a major advantage over us. Remember how May and Shel played even throughout much of their careers, but May's backups/second bigs (from MWill to Saunders) feasted?

If we can have Kyle and Ech on the floor at the same time, with Brian and Lance backing them up I will feel great. I'm just not sure Kyle will still be around in two years. My point was not that we need multiple stud ECS guy, just one and a stud "Duke 4" (like Kyle) as well as 1-2 serviceable backups. My big concern is that Ech may not be the kind of player that can come in and dominate as a frosh (Shel wasn't). If so, we've lost Kyle, Lance, and Brian before Ech can seriously contribute. That doesn't mean Duke is dead, just that we'll have some more work to do in the '09 /'10/'11 class. In other words Ech isn't "enough" by himself.

dukie8
01-17-2008, 09:06 PM
If Shane Battier was a "big man" then so are Singler, King, McClure, Czyz, etc. Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Battier was the quintessential Duke 4.

battier was 6'8" 220lb and, yes, he was the quintessential duke 4. i wasn't aware that "big man" only means the quintessential 5. moreover, the guys you listed all are smaller than battier (mcclure is 6'5") and, other than singler, not even remotely in the class of battier. if we had singler and battier both playing the 4, then a lot of this discussion would be moot because my guess is that both of those guys down low could handle the hansbroughs and loves out there. do you honestly think that singler plus thomas/zoubek/mcclure will be able to contain hansbrough/love/hibbert/etc?

77devil
01-17-2008, 09:34 PM
hondoheel's post is accurate. Review this link (http://njmg.typepad.com/zagsblog/2007/11/latest-on-echen.html), which contains this quote:

Not exactly Bob. Hondoheel's unattributed hearsay was supposedly from Echenique. It's worth noting that the guardian who was quoted about Miami provided a list of schools of most interest to Echenique which did not include Miami. There was no such mitigating information in hondoheel's post. No surprise.

Jumbo
01-17-2008, 09:36 PM
Oh, I agree we won't have two guys like Shel (or Carlos/Elton/whoever) but I do think we would be well-served by having a backup who is a semi-legit threat to score/rebound/block/etc. (upperclassman Casey-level, nothing more) I think this was the idea with Shav. Some folks may have been expecting a "twin towers" approach with both on the court at the same time (or with MT I suppose) but my own sense was that we were planning an attack where we always had a stud post on the court but could still deal with injury, foul trouble, etc. In a way that did pay off: Shav struggled with injury his entire career but we still did pretty well since we had two "Duke 5's" as it were.

Shav and Shel would have played together a ton if Shav had developed. They did start together as juniors. And as disappointing as Shav's career was, it was still better than Casey's. Duke certainly didn't recruit the two of them with the idea of alternating them at one spot for four years.


Remember how May and Shel played even throughout much of their careers, but May's backups/second bigs (from MWill to Saunders) feasted?

Carolina always struggled when May was hurt or out of the game. Byron Sanders was awful. The only time Carolina succeeded was May's junior season, when Marvin Williams and Jawad Williams played together when he was out. And guess what? Both would've been "Duke 4s."

Jumbo
01-17-2008, 09:37 PM
battier was 6'8" 220lb and, yes, he was the quintessential duke 4. i wasn't aware that "big man" only means the quintessential 5. moreover, the guys you listed all are smaller than battier (mcclure is 6'5") and, other than singler, not even remotely in the class of battier. if we had singler and battier both playing the 4, then a lot of this discussion would be moot because my guess is that both of those guys down low could handle the hansbroughs and loves out there. do you honestly think that singler plus thomas/zoubek/mcclure will be able to contain hansbrough/love/hibbert/etc?

The sky is blue.

Waynne
01-17-2008, 10:20 PM
Echenique is a very important recruit, and he has to pan out.

With Murphy gone, we seen to be pinning a tremendous amount of hope on landing Echenique, which seems somewhat misplaced because we may not get him. Even Al and Jim in their illuminating articles suggest that if we don't get him, we are in big trouble.

Yet unlike Monroe, Echenique has never said (as far as I know) that Duke is his favorite, and in fact has indicated strong interest in other schools, including Miami. While the insiders may know something I don't, the odds may not even be 50-50 that we get him. If that is the case, then we should be casting a "wider net" in the '09 class by recruiting and offering other suitable "bigs" sooner rather than later. If we ended up signing both Echenique and Painter that could be a very good thing, IMO.

Patrick Yates
01-17-2008, 10:20 PM
"must have missed all those Elite 8 and FF runs"

Evidently. In addition to the 2000 FF, they made the Sweet Sixteen in 2003 and the Elite Eight in 2005, losing to the Heels by six. They've made the NCAA Tournament nine consecutive seasons and had the consenus national POY runner-up last season. That's a pretty solid program.

For the record, Duke was stunned at Murphy's committment. By all accounts, so was Florida. Duke had him scheduled to take an official visit for the Carolina game. Chew on that for awhile. He turned down a chance to take an official visit to Cameron Indoor Stadium for a game between Duke and North Carolina.

http://www.uwbadgers.com/sport_news/mbb/bios/bio.html?staffid=316

Since you all like facts and links, I included one.

The 2000 FF happened 2 years before Bo Ryan took over, so he really can't take credit for that. The 2003 Sweet Sixteen happened in Ryan's second year, with a team dominated by kids Ryan did not recruit. The Elite 8 in 05 I will give you credit for. I missed that one because I was depressed about where I saw that season heading. Still, congrats to them for being one of the bugs on UNC's national championship windshield.

Still, Ryan may be doing it the right way, but he sure isn't winning. Not at the level Duke expects. If you are going to hold up Mighty UW, a team we completely waxed, as a beacon of success, well, you are wrong.

Also, to Jumbo, regarding my "Murphy's dad went to BC" comment. I also stated that he was reported to favor U of FL (imagine that). If you take the entire post, the gist was that he had real options and that Duke was no better than a co-leader.

Still, I was wrong about the whole Dad thing.

So, the Florida comment was correct, the Dad/BC thing was wrong.

That comment = 50% correct.

"Duke is in great shape with Erik Murphy" = 100% wrong.

Guess who wins that comparison?

Patrick Yates

Bob Green
01-17-2008, 10:22 PM
Not exactly Bob. Hondoheel's unattributed hearsay was supposedly from Echenique. It's worth noting that the guardian who was quoted about Miami provided a list of schools of most interest to Echenique which did not include Miami. There was no such mitigating information in hondoheel's post. No surprise.

The gist of hondoheel's post was that Echenique was going to visit Miami and that Hispanic culture is an important factor. I posted a link which confirmed the post. FWIW, I have read the same information on premium sites, which I cannot link to. I believe hondoheel posted in good faith. Yes, he is a Tar Heel fan, but he isn't a troll. Hondoheel has been around for a while and is a valuable contributor to the forum. Respectful fans of opposing teams bring diversity to the discussions.

Jumbo
01-17-2008, 10:46 PM
http://www.uwbadgers.com/sport_news/mbb/bios/bio.html?staffid=316

Since you all like facts and links, I included one.

The 2000 FF happened 2 years before Bo Ryan took over, so he really can't take credit for that. The 2003 Sweet Sixteen happened in Ryan's second year, with a team dominated by kids Ryan did not recruit. The Elite 8 in 05 I will give you credit for. I missed that one because I was depressed about where I saw that season heading. Still, congrats to them for being one of the bugs on UNC's national championship windshield.

Still, Ryan may be doing it the right way, but he sure isn't winning. Not at the level Duke expects. If you are going to hold up Mighty UW, a team we completely waxed, as a beacon of success, well, you are wrong.

Also, to Jumbo, regarding my "Murphy's dad went to BC" comment. I also stated that he was reported to favor U of FL (imagine that). If you take the entire post, the gist was that he had real options and that Duke was no better than a co-leader.

Still, I was wrong about the whole Dad thing.

So, the Florida comment was correct, the Dad/BC thing was wrong.

That comment = 50% correct.

"Duke is in great shape with Erik Murphy" = 100% wrong.

Guess who wins that comparison?

Patrick Yates

Would you like a cookie?

ArtVandelay
01-17-2008, 11:05 PM
I, for one, like the back and forth. I don't like the notion that everyone has to agree all the time. At the same time, I don't see the need to instigate fights by being a Debbie Downers or more inflammatory than necessary because of any perceived thought control by the mods. Sometimes things get a little petty around here. Obviously better than most boards, but still. And that's all I have to say about that.

On to more important issues. I think we can all agree that it's time to double our efforts on landing Painter. To be honest, he's ranked in the top 10 in the class, so maybe not getting Murphy will turn out to be a blessing in disguise. Does anyone know if there is there a reason we were higher on Murphy? Is it scouting, perceived interest in Duke by Painter, academic/character issues, a combination of those, or something else entirely?

watzone
01-17-2008, 11:29 PM
Duke can get over losing Murphy. While they will look at Painter, you can betcha that other names will turn up. Until then, lets enjoy the season and a team that is one lucky desperation three from being undefeated.

dukemomLA
01-18-2008, 03:34 AM
Enough. Let's let the season play out -- with joy and excitement. I'm weary of the posts about future recruits. When someone signs a L -- cool. We can watch other websites and news as to progress.

But this 'recruiting' angst/posts are going too far -- and perhaps discouraging recruits who lurk here.

We know that DUKE is the best place for a true student/athlete to choose. We know that the experience of playing at CIS and on National TV almost every game will help a player be a lottery pick -- or at least in the first round, if he deserves it. We know that we have the most savvy and wonderful coaching staff in CBB. So....can we give this a rest. Just for a little while???

Let's find something else to obsess about! Perhaps a few new posts/polls on the Off-Topic site?

devildownunder
01-18-2008, 06:40 AM
this has to have come up before but I missed the conversation (busy moving halfway around the world and getting married, i guess). Is there any chance rival schools are beginning to have some success selling high school post prospects on the notion that duke isn't the best place for them to develop? There is certainly plenty of stuff someone could point to if they wanted to make that argument.

Note, I'm not saying that this notion about duke and big men is true, I'm saying that a recruiter might be able to convince a kid or his parents that it's true. BIG DIFFERENCE. And, I'm just asking a question.

BigDuke6
01-18-2008, 07:49 AM
The gist of hondoheel's post was that Echenique was going to visit Miami and that Hispanic culture is an important factor. I posted a link which confirmed the post. FWIW, I have read the same information on premium sites, which I cannot link to. I believe hondoheel posted in good faith. Yes, he is a Tar Heel fan, but he isn't a troll. Hondoheel has been around for a while and is a valuable contributor to the forum. Respectful fans of opposing teams bring diversity to the discussions.

Durham has developed a great Hispanic culture too!

MChambers
01-18-2008, 09:41 AM
this has to have come up before but I missed the conversation (busy moving halfway around the world and getting married, i guess). Is there any chance rival schools are beginning to have some success selling high school post prospects on the notion that duke isn't the best place for them to develop? There is certainly plenty of stuff someone could point to if they wanted to make that argument.

Note, I'm not saying that this notion about duke and big men is true, I'm saying that a recruiter might be able to convince a kid or his parents that it's true. BIG DIFFERENCE. And, I'm just asking a question.

Of course there have been Duke big men who didn't turn out to be the players everyone hoped. But there also have been some wonderful big men at Duke who did better than everyone predicted.

I expect some rival schools try to make that argument. Seems like it would be quite easy for the staff to refute.

hondoheel
01-18-2008, 10:00 AM
Wow, thanks Bob! I admit I sneak in a subtle dig from time to time but I know this is a Duke board and I try to be respectful.

My money would be on Echenique eventually settling on Duke. But if I were in your fans' shoes I'd be mighty worried about placing all your recruiting eggs in the basket of someone who will not decide until at least November. With the possibility of early entry I certainly wouldn't see the harm in taking an early commitment from Andrew Fizgerald (he certainly passes the look test) or Stephan Van Treese (UNC has had some success with big men from Lawrence North HS.)


Durham has developed a great Hispanic culture too!

Yeah, just check the Home Depot parking lot each morning! ;)

RepoMan
01-18-2008, 10:01 AM
Serious question:

Is there any chance that the latest series of recruits passing on Duke is not unusual, over the long term, and that the only reason it seems like such a big deal is that we now live in an era where information is so readily accessible? I mean, 15, 10, even 5 years ago, would we have even heard that Murphy passed up an offer to come to Duke? I'm not saying that its not disappointing. No one like being rejected. But, as far as trying to divine some sort of overarching problem--maybe the long term view would suggest the concern is misplaced.

Ignatius07
01-18-2008, 10:10 AM
Short answer: yes. If you want a lengthier reply, read Featherston and Sumner's respective pieces about this - they should be linked to on the DBR home page.

Houston
01-18-2008, 10:15 AM
Although it is disappointing that Murphy selected the Gaators, please note his high school league in Boston, the Independent School League, is known for producing college hockey players for New England Schools at an amazing rate. Good luck at Florida.

Uncle Drew
01-18-2008, 10:26 AM
Enough. Let's let the season play out -- with joy and excitement. I'm weary of the posts about future recruits. When someone signs a L -- cool. We can watch other websites and news as to progress.

But this 'recruiting' angst/posts are going too far -- and perhaps discouraging recruits who lurk here.

We know that DUKE is the best place for a true student/athlete to choose. We know that the experience of playing at CIS and on National TV almost every game will help a player be a lottery pick -- or at least in the first round, if he deserves it. We know that we have the most savvy and wonderful coaching staff in CBB. So....can we give this a rest. Just for a little while???

Let's find something else to obsess about! Perhaps a few new posts/polls on the Off-Topic site?

LA, I'd love to agree with you: heck I actually agree with you. I'm sick of reading posts by DBR outlining ACC and UNC recruiting. (And Duke not mentioned.) I'm sick of seeing recruits A, B, C and D reject Duke and go to or sign a letter of intent to go to another school. And I'm REALLY bloody sick of seeing "Tarheels Get Commitment From _____________"!!!!! I hate politics but I'd almost rather talk caucuses, because the recruiting news lately has SUCKED! The problem is (and I'm sure there will be a lot of flack for this statement) a ton of and certainly the majority of wins are due to recruiting. One great player can make a bad program decent, a decent program good and a good program great. As good as Coach K and staff are and as good as the players we have now are, we're discussing Duke's future. I mean I don't see Duke ever getting to the point of playing a circus midget (excuse me "little person" for the politically correct) at center. But it appears Duke is not on the hot list of college teams to play for, and it frustrates most of us and perplexes even more. I mean UNC is reeling guys in at a rate where I'm actually getting paranoid thinking the anti-Duke tsunami is affecting recruiting or something. I would have shot my moms dog growing up to play basketball for Duke. I can't for the life of me figure out why any qualified athlete wouldn't. LA may be right for all I know, recruits may actually be linking up and seeing how wacko some of us (including myself) are getting and heading elsewhere. Hey, "if who's your daddy Battier" chimes in when he wins a popularity contest anything is possible.

Jumbo
01-18-2008, 12:02 PM
Serious question:

Is there any chance that the latest series of recruits passing on Duke is not unusual, over the long term, and that the only reason it seems like such a big deal is that we now live in an era where information is so readily accessible? I mean, 15, 10, even 5 years ago, would we have even heard that Murphy passed up an offer to come to Duke? I'm not saying that its not disappointing. No one like being rejected. But, as far as trying to divine some sort of overarching problem--maybe the long term view would suggest the concern is misplaced.

Bingo! We have a winner!

SilkyJ
01-18-2008, 12:25 PM
this is like after PP passed us up. we just hate on each other (presumably) cause we're bitter. Let's chill out, painter appears to be a better prospect anyways so let's just all calm down until the smoke clears. K is K and will do what K does.

uncwdevil
01-18-2008, 12:38 PM
Bingo! We have a winner!

I was just thinking the same thing. All of the men in my family have always been huge Duke fans and kept up the basketball program pretty closely. Of course, not too long ago, about all you could do was read the papers and subscribe to Blue Devil Weekly. Now look at all the information that is out there, especially on recruiting.

I can still vividly remember one of my neighbors coming over to our house back in the fall of '98, the conversation turned to Duke and he said "did y'all hear about that kid we have coming in this year? He's supposed to be really good, I think his name is Maggette?" (although he pronounced it Mah-jay) This was like a month before the season, and none of us had ever heard of him, and my neighbor didn't even know how to pronounce his name.

Ignatius07
01-18-2008, 04:09 PM
this is like after PP passed us up. we just hate on each other (presumably) cause we're bitter. Let's chill out, painter appears to be a better prospect anyways so let's just all calm down until the smoke clears. K is K and will do what K does.

When I saw that Painter was under consideration by Duke, but that we had instead offered Murphy, I thought it was odd. Painter is rated significantly higher by the recruiting services I have seen, and we were at least interested enough to scout and maintain contact with him, so what gives? It's easy to say right now that we don't need Murphy, because Painter is a better prospect anyway. But have you considered why the staff didn't offer Painter instead? There could be a whole host of reasons, none of them particularly good (like maybe he's more of a long-shot, for instance). If the staff wanted Murphy over Painter, I do too.

astoria26
01-18-2008, 05:26 PM
This whole recruiting thing has been driving me out of my mind. It’s completely taken over my workdays. The first post I saw yesterday afternoon was:

“Who to offer now?”
WHA - ????
Then:
“Murphy to Florida”.

Oh s***. And I knew, right then – my afternoon was gone. Might as well pack up and go home. And, yeah, it really bothered me – more than I thought it would. As if the five 4/5-star recruits in 10 days for Carolina weren’t enough – here is one of our own hopes going down the drain. I really appreciate Al Featherston and Jim Sumner trying to allay our fears by showing us historical data – but when top 25 players not only say “no thanks” without even coming onto campus, but flock to your bitter rival just 8 miles down the road, how can you not react? I mean, seriously, these are 5 star recruits falling over themselves to commit – and commit early – while nobody raises their voice for Duke! It’s become a matter of national concern.

So I tried to write something to calm myself down. I don’t know if it’ll work for you, but . . check it out. It’s semi-written from the viewpoint of Coach K, and how he takes the news of Erik Murphy’s commitment to Florida while on the team bus after the game. And in the tradition of fanfic disclaimers . . all characters belong to Duke University, I do not own them, etc etc.

http://5on5.blogspot.com/2008/01/lion-in-winter.html

Bottom line is, let’s celebrate our current team, rather than focus so much attention on kids who are never gonna come here. Starting with the Clemson game on Sat – that should be a doozy!

dukie8
01-18-2008, 06:06 PM
Bingo! We have a winner!

which year(s) in the 80s did we glaringly have no big man only to continue to have no big man for year(s) because of multiple whiffs?

johnb
01-18-2008, 07:43 PM
The level of vitriol from the naysayers is pathetic, IMHO. Jim and Al wrote thoughtful essays--read them. At the very least, recognize that we get more than our share of academically-qualified future NBA players--probably more than anyone--and that's despite the facts that PT at Duke is inevitably contested by other high school stars and that Duke University is not the ideal place for every 18 year old.

Why the bitterness? A few of you almost always say negative things on this board (you know who you are). Not interesting, just negative. It's strange to me, since it's as if this small group of naysayers believes that the rest of us don't want more Sheldens, Shanes, etc, and are uninterested in the rather obvious reality that we're in the top 5, that we have lots of great guys on the team, and that we graduate just one player this year. Sheesh... why don't you just become Carolina or Florida fans if you are so infatuated by their players.

77devil
01-18-2008, 08:42 PM
The gist of hondoheel's post was that Echenique was going to visit Miami and that Hispanic culture is an important factor. I posted a link which confirmed the post. FWIW, I have read the same information on premium sites, which I cannot link to. I believe hondoheel posted in good faith. Yes, he is a Tar Heel fan, but he isn't a troll. Hondoheel has been around for a while and is a valuable contributor to the forum. Respectful fans of opposing teams bring diversity to the discussions.

Like the subsequent post that Duke should look at some UNC table scraps after it signed the Wear twins. I've been around from the beginning and while I like and respect your posts Bob, I've read plenty of his material. We simply will never agree on this point. So be it.