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View Full Version : Duke MBB vs. FSU Post-Game Thread



speedevil
01-16-2008, 08:10 PM
paulus made the game winning plays: the steal and layup in the open court gave duke a nice confortable lead, then the drive and layup, and the steal on reid after an offensive rebound in the lane, and knocking down the fts after the foul and techical.

way to step it up paulus, you got my vote for man of the match.

Clipsfan
01-16-2008, 08:11 PM
That technical reminded me of the Dog Whisperer. The little dog starts it, but the big dog gets in trouble when he finishes it. (Paulus started kicking his feet unnecessarily IMHO).

Paulus kicking his feet was bad, but on the replay it does look like he got clocked in the face first. The way it played out it looked like they didn't assess a technical, though?

Paulus may not have had the best game, but he played really well at the end with those big layups and even the FTs.

JBDuke
01-16-2008, 08:13 PM
Post your post-game thoughts here.

beltwayBD
01-16-2008, 08:14 PM
paulus made the game winning plays: the steal and layup in the open court gave duke a nice confortable lead, then the drive and layup, and the steal on reid after an offensive rebound in the lane, and knocking down the fts after the foul and techical.

way to step it up paulus, you got my vote for man of the match.

Couldn't agree more. That steal, then the lay up, then the hustle!

That reminded me a little of the Henderson-nose job on Hansbrough last season. The Paulus move was hustle, then Reid just decided to punch Paulus in the head. Bull----.

We got a couple calls tonight, but so did they (but the only thing we'll hear about is the calls Duke got...).

Great win, I'll take it. Tough to win in Tallahassee.

Lows: Lance Thomas was a non-entity most of the game. I would've had McClure in there.

Clipsfan
01-16-2008, 08:15 PM
I'm glad we won? Last year I'm not sure the team had the toughness to battle back after losing the lead.

Karl Beem
01-16-2008, 08:15 PM
I'll take a 13 point win!:)

YmoBeThere
01-16-2008, 08:15 PM
Paulus played well when it mattered, he has improved greatly.

Ben63
01-16-2008, 08:16 PM
Too close for comfort. When we have a double digit lead we have to keep it. FSU fell apart down the stretch with the tech. foul and all. More experienced teams will not do that. Grade: B- Showed poise down the stretch when we needed to.

DukieInBrasil
01-16-2008, 08:16 PM
After fretting thru the game if poor FT shooting was gonna cost us the game, all of a sudden we starting making ALL of them!!!! Clutch FT shooting won this game, Iīm so happy to be able to say that!!!!

YmoBeThere
01-16-2008, 08:17 PM
You will have to study up on the Throatybreen corollary

dukeisawesome
01-16-2008, 08:18 PM
Why we always struggle so much at FSU I will never know, but at least we pulled out the victory. Things were looking bad, but we made all the plays in crunch time. Singler has shown a few times already he has ice in his veins (Pitt game) and Paulus persevered and played tough down the stretch despite having a poor performance earlier. I think this is a good win even if it was a little close for comfort. We aren't going to have too many easy road games.

dukestheheat
01-16-2008, 08:18 PM
I am so proud of our guys and we hung in there when we could have very easily folded it up and lost. FSU was driving, on fire in the second half, the arena was hostile and it was an aggressive game. Scheyer was a scoring animal and Paulus played a poor game initially, but when we needed his leadership, he brought it and delivered!

Back to Cameron to face a strong Clemson team. Great win for Duke!

dth.

jzp5079
01-16-2008, 08:20 PM
I love the win here. Is the box score on espn correct in that we out rebounded them pretty handily?

It seemed like we had trouble with having no big man in the middle to defer shots... but we pulled it out with our energy.

Florida State was playing like a bunch of sharp toothed little puppies... high energy on but completely out of control.

beltwayBD
01-16-2008, 08:21 PM
Why we always struggle so much at FSU I will never know, but at least we pulled out the victory.

Maybe the crowd? They're effing barbarians. Really loud, really into it. A big momentum factor I think. I could hear some guy in the stands on ESPN heckling the refs the whole game for (supposedly) bad calls.

77devil
01-16-2008, 08:21 PM
Generally Mike Patrick was awful. He seems to get worse with time. But when it was 57-55, Patrick or Bilas was prescient when he said the tougher team will win and immediately after Duke played really tough. Congrats to Greg who came in cold after sitting the majority of the second half on the bench and took the pounding and made big plays.

rsvman
01-16-2008, 08:21 PM
Singler's absolutely pure three (barely rippled the net) was a key basket, but Paulus's steal and lay-up was the dagger. I counted FOUR air balls for Paulus in the game, but boy did he come through when the chips were down.

Great win after a sloppy and scary second half.

Fish80
01-16-2008, 08:21 PM
why wasn't reid thrown out of the game? I thought the rule was you throw a punch, you're out!

Ben63
01-16-2008, 08:21 PM
Can't say enough about Paulus in the final 3 minutes. His first 37 were horrible, but it is good to see we can rely on him down the stretch. He is on my list for end of game shots. I like Paulus second to only Henderson (see Pitt game) for the last shot. Scheyer still gets my Man of the Match vote b/c it is the whole game not just the last three minutes.

DukePA
01-16-2008, 08:22 PM
Couldn't agree more. That steal, then the lay up, then the hustle!

That reminded me a little of the Henderson-nose job on Hansbrough last season. The Paulus move was hustle, then Reid just decided to punch Paulus in the head. Bull----.

We got a couple calls tonight, but so did they (but the only thing we'll hear about is the calls Duke got...).

Great win, I'll take it. Tough to win in Tallahassee.

Lows: Lance Thomas was a non-entity most of the game. I would've had McClure in there.


I don't understand why Reid wasn't ejected from the game. Seriously, what am I missing?

dw0827
01-16-2008, 08:22 PM
I LOVE THIS TEAM.

Last year, we lose this game. We come home whipped, tails between our legs.

This year, we were tough.

So don't critique this player or that player and how they played. This was about tough. Guts. Character. Balls.

Paulus.

Crappy game, for the most part. But at winning time, what a tough mother . . .

Scheyer. Are you kidding?

Singler. He is gonna have more scars on his face than any player in Duke history. That 3? Unconscious. And a freshman.

I don't care where this team finishes this year. They are already one of my favorite Duke teams and I've been watching since the early 60's.

I LOVE THIS TEAM.

beltwayBD
01-16-2008, 08:23 PM
Is it just me or does TK need to do some basic drills -- dribbling and passing, for example? I love the three-ball, but when he tries to penetrate he always ends up spinning, getting off balance, and lobbing it for a poorly targeted pass.

dukelifer
01-16-2008, 08:23 PM
First- that was a tough game in a tough place. If not for Scheyer and King in first half- it is really unclear how this game would have gone. Scheyer really was excellent- he was fluid- in control and made things happen. King gave a quick spark and I swear had two or three blocks along with some strong rebounds. The rest of Duke was still on the bus or plane or somewhere- except on the defensive end. Also even though he seemed to have no ability to create a shot tonight, Henderson seemed like a rebounding machine. I did not look at the box score- but he pulled down many strong boards in this game- particularly at the end. Throughout the second half I kept looking for a leader to emerge. Nelson did not look 100%. Henderson was getting the ball stripped and turning it over, Scheyer was running out of steam. It looked pretty bleak and when Fla State took the lead- it seemed that Duke would be out of it. But that calm three by Singler- the hustle play to get the ball in play and Duke fought. You can complain about a lot in this game- but not how they fought in the last five minutes. But when Duke needed to be strong- Paulus came though big time. He earned his stripes tonight. That was a gutty performance after being embarrassed at times. But the difference is that he came in fresh in the last few minutes and gave a huge lift. That steal- that drive and that fight for the ball was just what Duke needed. Duke is really struggling on the road. They look lost at times. But they won when it counted and they will get confidence with that. The boys were men tonight.

mapei
01-16-2008, 08:24 PM
Patrick said that Paulus really stepped up after having a bad game "for 55 minutes." It did seem like it at times.

Scheyer was fabulous - not just his scoring, but his smarts and hustle plays. Without him we lose by 10.

Too many turnovers.

Ben63
01-16-2008, 08:24 PM
why wasn't reid thrown out of the game? I thought the rule was you throw a punch, you're out!

As far as punches go, it was pretty poor. I dont think Reid needed to be tossed, but why didn't Paulus gets tech FT's. Is it b/c he was already fouled??

Fish80
01-16-2008, 08:26 PM
I LOVE THIS TEAM.

Last year, we lose this game. We come home whipped, tails between our legs.

This year, we were tough.

So don't critique this player or that player and how they played. This was about tough. Guts. Character. Balls.

Paulus.

Crappy game, for the most part. But at winning time, what a tough mother . . .

Scheyer. Are you kidding?

Singler. He is gonna have more scars on his face than any player in Duke history. That 3? Unconscious. And a freshman.

I don't care where this team finishes this year. They are already one of my favorite Duke teams and I've been watching since the early 60's.

I LOVE THIS TEAM.

Great post. Agree completely. This team is special, and so tough. Great win.

HumboldtDevil
01-16-2008, 08:26 PM
This was an absolutely huge game, not just a huge win. It had some creepy similarities to the Pitt game, too. Kudos to the guys for pulling this one out. God knows how it wound up a 13-point win (the final score is flattering), but plays were made down the stretch.

Some thoughts:

- Paulus has been getting on my nerves a lot lately and seemed almost like a liability for much of the game tonight. Then, out of nowhere, he makes play after play to seal the deal. His only FGs tonight were on his final three attempts, starting with a big 3-pointer to put Duke up 48-40 midway through the second half. I wish Greg would show the same initiative with the ball in the lane for the first 30-plus minutes.

- Like I said, this was eerily similar to the Pitt game. FSU isn't as good as Pitt, but this one was a true road game so I'd call the challenges for Duke pretty even. Up 17 in the first half, led 34-22 at halftime (both games), were stuck on 14 second-half points way too late into the half (both games), seemingy out-toughed for a good chunk of the second half. The difference was that Duke got tough out of nowhere in the final four minutes. Still too many TOs, poor defense, and bad shots. But this team showed up in the final minutes. I really didn't think they would after the way the first 16 minutes of the second half went. Then....

- Bang! Kyle hits a 3-pointer to answer FSU finally taking the lead and it's all Devils from there.

- Lance is trying, but gosh we need Zoubek back inside. Plus, Lance needs to get inside scoring lessons from Kyle.

- Officiating pissed me off tonight. It wasn't like the Pitt game, but FSU was in the double bonus before Duke was in the bonus. They just seemed to allow FSU to make more contact inside than they let Duke. Just another obstacle that I was proud to see Duke overcome.

- Announcers were terrible. Offensive fouls are apparently only close or bad calls when in Duke's favor. Plus, Gerald has a tremendous putback dunk on a FT and...silence. I guess they were listening to themselves talk.

Gotta go. Great win. Long way to go, but this could be the start of something. Need more from DeMarcus and Gerald on offense to make any real tourney noise, though.

mapei
01-16-2008, 08:26 PM
I also don't understand why Reid wasn't ejected, and I don't understand why we didn't shoot FTs for the T. I'm pretty sure I saw the ref signal a T.

ugadevil
01-16-2008, 08:28 PM
People wanted to panic after the Pitt game and say we were going to have the same problems as last year. However, this team faced a similar ending as the Pitt game and they responded. It's good to see the growth from past situations where they struggled. For a lot of these guys, tough ACC road wins are still a relatively new experience.

Jfrosh
01-16-2008, 08:29 PM
What a great call for coach to put Paulus back in at the end of the game. Gutsy call considering the game he had been having. I was getting so tired of the 1 on 1 and quick shots in the second half, it was great to see us toughen up down the stretch.

And for Man of the Match, although Paulus was tough at the end, Scheyer was doing everything for us for most of the game.

SMO
01-16-2008, 08:30 PM
I don't understand why Reid wasn't ejected from the game. Seriously, what am I missing?

I'm not sure they even reviewed it on video. Contrast this against the Henderson/Hasbro ejection last year...

Joehurley1
01-16-2008, 08:30 PM
This team really shows some sack. It's great to see us battle it out at the end and make winning plays. I attribute a lot of this to Singler. Look at that guy's face man, and he's still dishing it out to the other team. I love this team too. We won't back down from anybody. Can I also say what a punk university Fla St, is to me? I'm really disliking those guys right now.

Indoor66
01-16-2008, 08:30 PM
What a great call for coach to put Paulus back in at the end of the game. Gutsy call considering the game he had been having. I was getting so tired of the 1 on 1 and quick shots in the second half, it was great to see us toughen up down the stretch.

And for Man of the Match, although Paulus was tough at the end, Scheyer was doing everything for us for most of the game.

I see Paulus as Man of the Last 3 Min but Jon as MOTM!

3rd Dukie
01-16-2008, 08:31 PM
I LOVE THIS TEAM.

Last year, we lose this game. We come home whipped, tails between our legs.

This year, we were tough.

So don't critique this player or that player and how they played. This was about tough. Guts. Character. Balls.

Paulus.

Crappy game, for the most part. But at winning time, what a tough mother . . .

Scheyer. Are you kidding?

Singler. He is gonna have more scars on his face than any player in Duke history. That 3? Unconscious. And a freshman.

I don't care where this team finishes this year. They are already one of my favorite Duke teams and I've been watching since the early 60's.

I LOVE THIS TEAM.

I share your enthusiasm and your time frame. Been watching since about the same time. Scheyer was the man, for my money. As Ben63, I think it was, said, it was the entire game, not just the last 3 minutes. Without Scheyer, the last 3 mins. might not have mattered.

I have to say, though, I wished we had an enforcer out there tonight. Somebody should have faced Reid down, and I know that that might have been stupid. However, he was a punk and should not have gotten away with that. With Shel out there, that never happens. Regardless, this team does have stones where it really counts; in the game.

Good win! Really good win!

Saratoga2
01-16-2008, 08:31 PM
For the majority of the game, the starters with the exception of Singler and Henderson, looked really terrible on offense. Thanks to Scheyer, King and to some extent Smith the ship was righted, but when shifting back to the starters it would fall apart again offensively. At the end of the game, Demarcus and Greg showed some toughness and did some things well.

Just some observations:

We need Scheyer to touch the ball on every play. When he handles the ball, the chances of making a decent play seem to go way up.

Singler is a great young player. We need him in the game as much as his foul situation and physical condition will allow.

Henderson is a good offensive player, but should not be dribbling the ball, he needs to be set up by others to make the play. He is really an effective rebounder perhaps due to his size and athleticism.

King played well down low although he was at a big disadvantage in speed trying to guard some of the quick FSU players.

McClure did well on defense as he ususally does, but is not an offensive threat.

DeMarcus had a lot of attempts inside against the big people and lost most of those. He is really unsure of himself with the ball and needs to be fed, as does Henderson, into an advantage position. His defense was good tonight, but the offense didn't come alive until the end. Perhaps FSU was getting tired.

Paulus really had a poor game right up until the end, where he seemed to come to and do some really good things. Perhaps the speed and aggressiveness of the FSU guards were too much for him.

Nolan played an okay game. His defense if very good but he put himself into turnover situations rather than move the ball through passing.

Thomas has a poor game overall. I can't remember anything positive from him on the night. Perhaps he is still recovering and will be better in the next game.

Sometimes I wonder why coach K left the starting crew in when they were doing so poorly and then left them in when FSU made a significant rally. It is probably the right thing to do to keep players fresh but there were times during the game that I was hoping for a quick return to the effective lineups.

JBDuke
01-16-2008, 08:31 PM
As far as punches go, it was pretty poor. I dont think Reid needed to be tossed, but why didn't Paulus gets tech FT's. Is it b/c he was already fouled??


I also don't understand why Reid wasn't ejected, and I don't understand why we didn't shoot FTs for the T. I'm pretty sure I saw the ref signal a T.

Because a double technical was called - one on Greg and one on Reid. I assume Greg was T'd up for kicking.

Jfrosh
01-16-2008, 08:32 PM
I also don't understand why Reid wasn't ejected, and I don't understand why we didn't shoot FTs for the T. I'm pretty sure I saw the ref signal a T.

It looked to me like he called a double technical. I saw him point to two players but I couldn't see who the 2nd player was, but it wasn't Paulus for the kick, because it was someone standing. I'd look at the DVR but it was after the 2 hour mark I recorded. Anyone smart enough to record the whole thing have any insight.

Ben63
01-16-2008, 08:32 PM
- Announcers were terrible. Offensive fouls are apparently only close or bad calls when in Duke's favor. Plus, Gerald has a tremendous putback dunk on a FT and...silence. I guess they were listening to themselves talk.


God I wish I lived in the NC area so I could listen to the radio broadcast with the TV. All TV announcers suck, any sport. I cant stand them. John Madden is the worst.

As for the dunk, they had a bad angle for that and they didn't say anything and there was no replay, but 5 seconds later a replay of a foul on the other end. I guess they assumed Scheyer (?) made it b/c it did happen very fast. Announcers suck.

DukeDevilDeb
01-16-2008, 08:33 PM
I don't understand why Reid wasn't ejected from the game. Seriously, what am I missing?

Why was a double technical called when Reid hit Paulus? Several people have said that Paulus kicked, but it seemed to me that was reaction to being hit.

A few plays earlier, Reid DECKED Paulus at the other end of the court... no call. What is going on with the refs?

Great game, guys. Let us vow to remember how hard they fought in this one and be great fans all season long!

Indoor66
01-16-2008, 08:33 PM
Because a double technical was called - one on Greg and one on Reid. I assume Greg was T'd up for kicking.

The box score on the ESPN site shows Paulus with a T.

JStuart
01-16-2008, 08:33 PM
I don't care where this team finishes this year. They are already one of my favorite Duke teams and I've been watching since the early 60's.

I LOVE THIS TEAM.

I second that (e)motion. What a tough win.

I wonder, though, how Bilas tolerates Patrick. He is a close second to Vitale in obnoxity.

Ben63
01-16-2008, 08:34 PM
Because a double technical was called - one on Greg and one on Reid. I assume Greg was T'd up for kicking.

Gotcha, Greg did shoot FT's, they were for the foul. Thanks for the explanation.:)

Indoor66
01-16-2008, 08:35 PM
I wonder, though, how Bilas tolerates Patrick. He is a close second to Vitale in obnoxity.

That's funny, I thought Bilas sounded like Vitale with his inane comments.

Duvall
01-16-2008, 08:36 PM
I also don't understand why Reid wasn't ejected, and I don't understand why we didn't shoot FTs for the T. I'm pretty sure I saw the ref signal a T.

Double technical on Reid and Paulus.

Clipsfan
01-16-2008, 08:36 PM
Because a double technical was called - one on Greg and one on Reid. I assume Greg was T'd up for kicking.

Thanks for the clarification, that makes sense (and was the right call). Even though Greg was hit in the face, he shouldn't be allowed to start kicking like that.

Constantstrain 81
01-16-2008, 08:37 PM
I was ready to be unhappy. Turnovers, not running the offense, etc. FSU takes the lead. Even the announcers are terrible, questioning every call that goes Duke's way and ignoring those that don't.

Then, we won tough. Just when I (a Paulus fan) had buried him in disgust, he comes alive. Scheyer is big. Henderson big (on the boards and defense). Paulus huge. Singler huge. McClure ... well, okay he was on the bench and probably should have been in, but that's another story.

I am proud of the team. Tough to win on the road.

King played well in extended minutes. Nolan was tough on defense.

Lance looks totally out of sync. I know that he is better. I hope that the coaches can work it out for him.

Great win.

Joehurley1
01-16-2008, 08:37 PM
I forgot to say one more thing. Can Bilas be prevented from calling any more Duke games? He makes me sick pumping up the other team when they are coming back or playing ahead of Duke. What is it with him? I know I'm a homer but dang Jay.

Ben63
01-16-2008, 08:37 PM
Why was a double technical called when Reid hit Paulus? Several people have said that Paulus kicked, but it seemed to me that was reaction to being hit.

A few plays earlier, Reid DECKED Paulus at the other end of the court... no call. What is going on with the refs?



As a Duke fan I get crap from friends all the time b/c the refs "favor" Duke. Next I hear anything I'll give them a tape of Reid from this game and point out that he didn't foul out.

77devil
01-16-2008, 08:39 PM
Because a double technical was called - one on Greg and one on Reid. I assume Greg was T'd up for kicking.

I have watched the replay repeatedly. Weakest kick of all time. Most of the leg movement was when Greg was rolling over on his side after being grabbed and hit well after the whistle.

wisteria
01-16-2008, 08:39 PM
We pulled off a win in a road game after blowing a big lead!!!!!

Jon is the man!

And great leadership and guts shown by Paulus in the final moments.

We are a different team this year!

Ben63
01-16-2008, 08:39 PM
I have watched the replay repeatedly. Weakest kick of all time.

And weakest punch of all time from Reid.

SMO
01-16-2008, 08:41 PM
I forgot to say one more thing. Can Bilas be prevented from calling any more Duke games? He makes me sick pumping up the other team when they are coming back or playing ahead of Duke. What is it with him? I know I'm a homer but dang Jay.

It is pretty bad. The moment that really demonstrated their lack of interest in saying positives about Duke was the Henderson put-back in the first half. Super-athletic play and....crickets chirping. I think they were afraid the FSU fans might be upset if they noticed Duke made a nice play. I think Jay's in a tough spot and should probably not do Duke games. He tries very hard to compensate and just ends up sounding biased.

mapei
01-16-2008, 08:41 PM
Thanks for the clarification, that makes sense (and was the right call). Even though Greg was hit in the face, he shouldn't be allowed to start kicking like that.

What is he supposed to do? Lie there on his back and let FSU players stand over and beat the hell out of him? I think that was a perfectly legitimate move to try to clear some space.

IUGrad03
01-16-2008, 08:42 PM
Paulus came up big time down the stretch which is a great sign (I choose to forget the first 37 minutes of the game). I would love to know what was said during that embrace between Greg and K at the end of the game.

wisteria
01-16-2008, 08:42 PM
And weakest punch of all time from Reid.

I agree after viewing the replay. It was a mess anyway at that time. I think the refs made the right decision.

77devil
01-16-2008, 08:42 PM
And weakest punch of all time from Reid.

Maybe so but the real point is that Reid interjected himself, unprovoked, 4 or 5 seconds after the whistle blew.

natedog4ever
01-16-2008, 08:44 PM
Maybe Reid and Paulus can punch and kick Jay?

Devilsfan
01-16-2008, 08:48 PM
He really doesn't know the game.

mapei
01-16-2008, 08:49 PM
I would love to know what was said during that embrace between Greg and K at the end of the game.

I would love to know if Reid and Paulus shook hands in the line after the game and, if so, what communication passed between them.

Ben63
01-16-2008, 08:53 PM
I thought Mike Patrick was bad calling football games, but holy cow he is horrible at hoops. BTW, why are baseball radio guys the best?? Vin Scully, Harry Kalas, Ernie Harwell, etc??

3rd Dukie
01-16-2008, 08:53 PM
I have watched the replay repeatedly. Weakest kick of all time. Most of the leg movement was when Greg was rolling over on his side after being grabbed and hit well after the whistle.

Is it pretty clear on the replay that Reid threw at least one punch (a right, I think)?
I thought throwing a punch was grounds for automatic, immediate ejection, plus the next game. I guess I made this up. Regardless, Greg's reaction should certainly NOT be viewed as the equivalent of what Reid did. I'm still steamed about that.

mapei
01-16-2008, 08:54 PM
I thought Mike Patrick was bad calling football games, but holy cow he is horrible at hoops. BTW, why are baseball radio guys the best?? Vin Scully, Harry Kalas, Ernie Harwell, etc??

Because listeners don't care that they are basically doing what Vitale does, but in softer voices. ;)

arnie
01-16-2008, 08:55 PM
Bilas is very disappointing as an announcer during Duke games. Can you imagine if the roles were reversed and our player tried to through a punch. His indignance would be repeated over and over. He needs to move on and do something else as he has no credibility.

Acymetric
01-16-2008, 08:57 PM
I'm not sure they even reviewed it on video. Contrast this against the Henderson/Hasbro ejection last year...

Nobody that isn't a Duke fan will every even think about that point, but it's completely true. Regardless of whether it turned out to be the right call (indication from other people is it was, I can't watch it again but I'll trust them) they should have looked at it on replay to make sure. Maybe they're afraid the FSU fans will rush the floor and go after the refs if they lost. Or that Reid will throw a "weak" punch. I'm not sure about anyone else, but any punch to the face is uncomfortable at best, especially when your head is already against a hard surface.


Announcers were terrible. Offensive fouls are apparently only close or bad calls when in Duke's favor. Plus, Gerald has a tremendous putback dunk on a FT and...silence. I guess they were listening to themselves talk.

I couldn't believe it either. That was a great play by Henderson.


Overall, great first half (except Paulus). Tough, hard fought game at the end. Would we have won that if the Pitt game hadn't happened? I think it definitely toughened us up. I'm so proud of Paulus, if only he would have hit the rim on some of those shots...

And on Nelson not showing up much offensively, I'm sure he at least occupied a defender pretty well, and the beauty of this team is that when someone is off, other players (Scheyer anyone?) step in and fill the void. I could certainly be happier after a game, but I couldn't be more proud. This team is fun, it kills me that I'm at college in Ohio, I'm missing out on my dad's season tickets. UGH!

dw0827
01-16-2008, 08:59 PM
After a great game like that, why all the whining about the announcers. Get a life. Who cares. Talk about the game.

DangerDevil
01-16-2008, 09:01 PM
I have watched the replay repeatedly. Weakest kick of all time. Most of the leg movement was when Greg was rolling over on his side after being grabbed and hit well after the whistle.

After he was hit the first time in the face by another FSU player. Two or three seconds after the whistle and taking three steps towards Paulus, making a fist and swinging back into the pile is when Reid hits Paulus. A contributing factor to the punch looking "weak" was the fortunate fact that Paulus turned away and only caught a glancing blow to the side of his face, not the full face shot that Reid intended.

Just the opposite of the unfortunate result of Henderson's forearm at the end of last season. I can't believe that Reid wasn't ejected nor the lack of outrage by commentators after the act. Regardless of the lack of Reid being ejected for fighting I hope that the ACC officals suspend him for at least a game similar to Henderson's suspension last year.

Additonally I am not a lawyer but what is different between Reid's attack and an assualt and battery charge?

dukeisawesome
01-16-2008, 09:02 PM
Also I just wanted to ask if anyone else was reminded of Battier's coming out game against Maryland when he was a sophomore. I think he had 27 or 30 that game. Scheyer reminded me of that kind of game tonight in the first half. Not that he will be Battier, but anywhere close to that I'll take!

Edit: Found the boxscore: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/college/men/scoreboards/1999/02/03/finalbox.duke.maryland.html
that performance by Battier is etched in my memory.

JBDuke
01-16-2008, 09:04 PM
I thought Mike Patrick was bad calling football games, but holy cow he is horrible at hoops. BTW, why are baseball radio guys the best?? Vin Scully, Harry Kalas, Ernie Harwell, etc??

I think it's because all those greats earned their stripes in the days when radio dominated, so they were responsible for the entire listener experience. Listen to Vin Scully on radio if you get a chance - he really paints a picture for the listener. These guys know what is the essence of the game and they make sure that it gets transmitted to their audience.

TV commentators are adjuncts. They have to fill the dead audio time to complement the video of the action, but it is the video that is of the primary interest to the viewer. IMO, the best TV guys are the ones that get this, and thus provide the viewer the essential information that just watching the action won't convey. Additionally, as on-screen graphics have become more and more sophisticated and ubiquitous, they have taken on the job of conveying info that the commentators used to provide. (How many fouls on so-and-so? How much time left in the game? How big has this Duke run been?) This leaves less and less content for the commentators to cover in the same amount of time. So we get more histrionics in our commentary.

JBDuke
01-16-2008, 09:05 PM
Also I just wanted to ask if anyone else was reminded of Battier's coming out game against Maryland when he was a sophomore. I think he had 27 or 30 that game. Scheyer reminded me of that kind of game tonight in the first half. Not that he will be Battier, but anywhere close to that I'll take!

Funny you bring up Battier, because in the chat room during the game, Jim Sumner made a similar observation - that Scheyer reminded him a little of Battier. Mostly in that he always seemed to make smart plays, that his defense was excellent, that he was often in the middle of the action, and that he was capable of offensive explosions.

mapei
01-16-2008, 09:15 PM
Going back to the Greg/Reid scuffle, it's worth mentioning that the lower half of Greg's face looked like hell afterward.

jacone21
01-16-2008, 09:17 PM
Paulus came up big time down the stretch which is a great sign (I choose to forget the first 37 minutes of the game). I would love to know what was said during that embrace between Greg and K at the end of the game.

On ESPNNews after the game, they had an interview with Greg. He said that, earlier, when he was struggling, Coach told Greg to keep his head up and that he would make a big play in the game. Coach was clairvoyant perhaps. Anyway, Greg said that after the game, coach was talking to him about that... about making those big plays.

weezie
01-16-2008, 09:17 PM
Seriously! I have never seen as much blood shed by Duke players in all previous years combined! Incredible.

Indoor66
01-16-2008, 09:18 PM
I think it's because all those greats earned their stripes in the days when radio dominated, so they were responsible for the entire listener experience. Listen to Vin Scully on radio if you get a chance - he really paints a picture for the listener. These guys know what is the essence of the game and they make sure that it gets transmitted to their audience.

TV commentators are adjuncts. They have to fill the dead audio time to complement the video of the action, but it is the video that is of the primary interest to the viewer. IMO, the best TV guys are the ones that get this, and thus provide the viewer the essential information that just watching the action won't convey. Additionally, as on-screen graphics have become more and more sophisticated and ubiquitous, they have taken on the job of conveying info that the commentators used to provide. (How many fouls on so-and-so? How much time left in the game? How big has this Duke run been?) This leaves less and less content for the commentators to cover in the same amount of time. So we get more histrionics in our commentary.

IMO they use the graphics wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much as well as talk wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much.

mr. synellinden
01-16-2008, 09:20 PM
Singler. He is gonna have more scars on his face than any player in Duke history.

The play in which he slashed open his chin was incredible - athletically and as a demostration of the will to win. Dare I say he is Laettneresque in that regard.

77devil
01-16-2008, 09:21 PM
I can't believe that Reid wasn't ejected nor the lack of outrage by commentators after the act. Regardless of the lack of Reid being ejected for fighting I hope that the ACC officals suspend him for at least a game similar to Henderson's suspension last year.

Two words - double standard

Jumbo
01-16-2008, 09:24 PM
Bottom line -- as others have said -- is that last year's team doesn't win this game. Period. Say what you will about blowing the lead, about all the things that led to such a stressful last couple of minutes, but this team showed incredible grit and resolve to win anyway -- and on the road, no less. This wasn't the first time. Fact is, Duke blew the lead to Pitt and still came back in the final minute of regulation to send it to overtime. These guys are better, more mentally tough and more of a team than last year's group.

The Good
-Scheyer was fantastic. I'm waiting for the official boxscore to show up on goduke.com, because there's no way he only had two assists. I remember two right off the top of my head -- his baseline drive and no-look pass to Henderson and the first half and his kick-out to Singler for the three that put Duke back in front. He is listed with only two steals right now, but had two very early in the first half. ESPN.com box scores are frequently wrong at first, so I hope those numbers are low.

Regardless, he was awesome. I love that he broke out of his shooting slump. I love that he aggressively looked for his shot. I love that he attacked the basket. I just wish the team had put the ball in his hands in the second half more and let him make plays -- there were too many quick shots by other guys where he just didn't get to touch the ball on a given possession. And with any luck, this is a wakeup call that we need to get him out of the corner and get the ball in his hands on the wing -- he is much more effective that way.

-Singler's hustle is incredible. While it's largely responsible for his foul trouble, he routinely gets Duke extra possessions through nothing but pure effort. The guy couldn't be any tougher or more efficient -- he's everything McRoberts wasn't.

-Paulus responded from a truly awful first 37 minutes with a couple of great plays down the stretch. Make of it what you will, but he deserves credit for it.

The Bad
-When things got tighter in the second half, there were WAY too many instances of quick shots and guys trying to go one-on-one. That can't happen.

-Lance Thomas MUST be stronger with the ball. He brings it down too low, and his post moves need to show more patiences. He gets himself out of control and into trouble on his own.

The Ugly
-This team can't turn the ball over 20 times. Period. Duke has too many good guards. We played a small lineup most of the time with a 5 (Singler) who can handle and pass extremely well. There's no excuse -- no matter how much ball pressure we faced -- for so many miscues. I can live with missed shots. I can't live with so many turnovers, given the way Duke is playing this year. Duke needs to win the turnover differential and force extra possessions. It's that simple.

As tough as it was to watch at times, a road win in the ACC is always huge. Let's keep building.

ugadevil
01-16-2008, 09:25 PM
After a great game like that, why all the whining about the announcers. Get a life. Who cares. Talk about the game.

Part of it is because one of the announcers is a former Duke player and member of the coaching staff. And "talk about the game" is right...something the announcers should also make sure to do, instead of constantly reminding everyone about the "Week of Impact" on ESPN.

mapei
01-16-2008, 09:27 PM
Excellent analysis, Jumbo.

Chard
01-16-2008, 09:29 PM
Paulus took a shot to the face from an FSU player while he was on the ground. It reminded me of the shot that Paul took at a NCSU player's groin a few years back. Very sneaky. That player should probably get a one-game suspension from the ACC as well. That is why Paulus reacted the way he did. Then, Reid comes in with his cheap shot.

Also, someone threw something on the court after another Duke basket but no tech. Then, when the coaches were shaking hands some one from the crowd threw something a Coach K. Man, FSU really blows in many ways.

Chard
01-16-2008, 09:32 PM
One more thing. I never want to watch another Duke game with Bilas announcing. Just my preference.

mr. synellinden
01-16-2008, 09:33 PM
On a separate note, is it possible that we have the shortest player jumping center for us of any team in the country? How tall is Henderson for real? 6'3"? 6'4"? And he's jumping center. Amazing. And we outrebound FSU by 12 on the road.

Jumbo
01-16-2008, 09:34 PM
I'm not saying he deserved to get popped, but Paulus wasn't exactly innocent. He was chippy on a pair of possessions and clearly got under Reid's skin. That said, he didn't deserve to get smacked.

Bob Green
01-16-2008, 09:36 PM
I'm not saying he deserved to get popped, but Paulus wasn't exactly innocent. He was chippy on a pair of possessions and clearly got under Reid's skin. That said, he didn't deserve to get smacked.

I thought the double technical was the proper call. Things were starting to get out-of-control and the double technical calmed everyone down.

Acymetric
01-16-2008, 09:37 PM
I'm not saying he deserved to get popped, but Paulus wasn't exactly innocent. He was chippy on a pair of possessions and clearly got under Reid's skin. That said, he didn't deserve to get smacked.

I can't say for certain, but I would have to imagine that Reid was guilty of some "chippyness" as well. And walking up to someone and punching them after a play is worlds away from being a little too phsyical on a play or giving out some trash talk. None of them are good sportsmanship, I guess, but a punch is totally unnacceptable.

ugadevil
01-16-2008, 09:39 PM
I can't say for certain, but I would have to imagine that Reid was guilty of some "chippyness" as well. And walking up to someone and punching them after a play is worlds away from being a little too phsyical on a play or giving out some trash talk. None of them are good sportsmanship, I guess, but a punch is totally unnacceptable.


The move by Reid was just stupid. At least Chris Paul used to sucker punch people before anyone blew the whistle.

KenTankerous
01-16-2008, 09:39 PM
The more I watch Duke - my ladylove is a HUGE BlueDevils Fan - the more the myths fall.

Reid should have been T'ed up for the FIRST time he clocked Paulus in the melon way after the whistle blew. The second one, geez, could Paulus have been any more vulnerable, prone with both arms around the ball? Reid should really be playing for Huggins at WV to achieve his true inner-Thugness.

Your Dukies got beat up, whistled down, playing five on eight most of the night and gutted out a great win. I hope your boys can recover to put up the good fight against a Clemson team that took UNC down to the wire.

wisteria
01-16-2008, 09:40 PM
I thought the double technical was the proper call. Things were starting to get out-of-control and the double technical calmed everyone down.

I am pretty sure that it would have been labeled as yet another game "handed to us by the refs", had Reid been tossed out of the game. Oh wait... it's already labeled like that? never mind then.

DangerDevil
01-16-2008, 09:41 PM
Paulus took a shot to the face from an FSU player while he was on the ground. It reminded me of the shot that Paul took at a NCSU player's groin a few years back. Very sneaky. That player should probably get a one-game suspension from the ACC as well. That is why Paulus reacted the way he did. Then, Reid comes in with his cheap shot.

Also, someone threw something on the court after another Duke basket but no tech. Then, when the coaches were shaking hands some one from the crowd threw something a Coach K. Man, FSU really blows in many ways.

Agreed. Lack of class all the way around for FSU from the players to the fans. Not only the examples mentioned above but:
1) Reid's bump/hand to Paulus's face well after the whistle on a foul on Nelson a few minutes before the punch
2) Reid getting pretty animated arguing a couple of calls to the Refs throughout the second half
3) Rich (i think) looking at the Ref for several seconds after an out of bounds call going against FSU and taking a shot rather than giving the ball back to the Ref. Hamilton also jumped up and down on the sideline following this play letting loose with several expeltives on the Ref that a novice lip reader could easily decipher on TV.

I am suprised that the refs let so much of this go on and am happy that Paulus and the rest of the Blue Devils showed as much poise as they did after the sucker punch and prevented something really ugly from happening. I am not sure I would have reacted as well.

Bob Green
01-16-2008, 09:46 PM
...Scheyer was fantastic. I'm waiting for the official boxscore to show up on goduke.com, because there's no way he only had two assists. I remember two right off the top of my head -- his baseline drive and no-look pass to Henderson and the first half and his kick-out to Singler for the three that put Duke back in front. He is listed with only two steals right now, but had two very early in the first half. ESPN.com box scores are frequently wrong at first, so I hope those numbers are low.



Here is the box score (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1370028).

jipops
01-16-2008, 09:48 PM
Bottom line -- as others have said -- is that last year's team doesn't win this game. Period. Say what you will about blowing the lead, about all the things that led to such a stressful last couple of minutes, but this team showed incredible grit and resolve to win anyway -- and on the road, no less. This wasn't the first time. Fact is, Duke blew the lead to Pitt and still came back in the final minute of regulation to send it to overtime. These guys are better, more mentally tough and more of a team than last year's group.

The Good
-Scheyer was fantastic. I'm waiting for the official boxscore to show up on goduke.com, because there's no way he only had two assists. I remember two right off the top of my head -- his baseline drive and no-look pass to Henderson and the first half and his kick-out to Singler for the three that put Duke back in front. He is listed with only two steals right now, but had two very early in the first half. ESPN.com box scores are frequently wrong at first, so I hope those numbers are low.

Regardless, he was awesome. I love that he broke out of his shooting slump. I love that he aggressively looked for his shot. I love that he attacked the basket. I just wish the team had put the ball in his hands in the second half more and let him make plays -- there were too many quick shots by other guys where he just didn't get to touch the ball on a given possession. And with any luck, this is a wakeup call that we need to get him out of the corner and get the ball in his hands on the wing -- he is much more effective that way.

-Singler's hustle is incredible. While it's largely responsible for his foul trouble, he routinely gets Duke extra possessions through nothing but pure effort. The guy couldn't be any tougher or more efficient -- he's everything McRoberts wasn't.

-Paulus responded from a truly awful first 37 minutes with a couple of great plays down the stretch. Make of it what you will, but he deserves credit for it.

The Bad
-When things got tighter in the second half, there were WAY too many instances of quick shots and guys trying to go one-on-one. That can't happen.

-Lance Thomas MUST be stronger with the ball. He brings it down too low, and his post moves need to show more patiences. He gets himself out of control and into trouble on his own.

The Ugly
-This team can't turn the ball over 20 times. Period. Duke has too many good guards. We played a small lineup most of the time with a 5 (Singler) who can handle and pass extremely well. There's no excuse -- no matter how much ball pressure we faced -- for so many miscues. I can live with missed shots. I can't live with so many turnovers, given the way Duke is playing this year. Duke needs to win the turnover differential and force extra possessions. It's that simple.

As tough as it was to watch at times, a road win in the ACC is always huge. Let's keep building.

A couple of things that maybe should be mentioned to go along with the good. I for one am pleasantly surprised by the penchant for effective interior defense displayed by both Lance and Taylor, especially Taylor. How many blocks did the kid get tonight? Lance is routinely brought up as being a non-entity on offense, but his defense has turned out to be quite reliable. Don't have any stats to back it up, but my impression was that the 'Noles seemed to have a lot of problems scoring while he was in there. I've been a big Taylor King skeptic since the beginning of the season, but I think this could very well have been one of his best all-around games so far, in an ACC road game to boot.

77devil
01-16-2008, 09:50 PM
I'm not saying he deserved to get popped, but Paulus wasn't exactly innocent. He was chippy on a pair of possessions and clearly got under Reid's skin. That said, he didn't deserve to get smacked.

Anyone who has played organized ball at almost any level knows getting under an opponents skin is part of the game. An intentional swing/punch that required 2 steps toward a player on the floor well after the whistle is not. Reid deserves the same suspension Chris Paul received for his cheap shot.

blueprofessor
01-16-2008, 09:57 PM
:confused: My ethics classes have discussed this type of person.They are usually hollow, suck ups.Remember,this is the guy who got a grant -in-aid to Duke , may have been the 6th best player on the 1986 team(Danny Ferry was the 6th man),and uttered those incredible words,"If I had not gone to school there, I would probably have hated Duke ,too." Having attended Yale and Harvard and been a professor at Cambridge and Oxford, I still believe Duke is the greatest academic experience of my life.I did not see anything to hate there--rather,much to admire.I consider it a privilege that I was allowed to attend Duke.A number of family members would concur.Obviously, I do not feel that anyone who has been extended that privilege should sully his school with a noxious comment to promote his career among a Duke-hating fraternity. Why would anyone be shocked by his role as a poseur?Jay is a careerist---nothing more,nothing less.
:) Color me totally,unconditionally proud of Duke.Best regards--Professor of ethics

wisteria
01-16-2008, 10:03 PM
I absolutely hate the title of the ESPN report for this game. "late FTs lift Duke over FSU" (or something like that).

It was the toughness that we showed, the clutch plays Paulus and Singler made that won us the game in the end. Of course we got to make all those free throws because FSU began fouling in the last minute (just as every team does in that situation).

dukie8
01-16-2008, 10:10 PM
i thought that that was scheyer's coming out party. he completely dominated the game in the first half. i have no idea why they stopped going to him in the second half because when some is hot like that he should at least touch the ball on offense on every trip.

the halfcourt offense in the last 10 minutes was truly horrific. did we even attempt a halfway decent shot? it was just either someone taking a shot with 1 or no passes or a bunch of fluttering around on the perimeter and then a brick jump shot.

paulus was truly horrific for the first 37 minutes (or was it 55?) but he really had a great last 3 minutes. with the way the halfcourt offense was working (not working), i don't know if they pull it out if he doesn't make that steal and lay-up and then drive and lay-up. i don't blame him for kicking (he was getting jabbed by several people) but you can't be upset with the refs for hitting him with a T for that. reid should be suspended because of the scrum play and the prior decking of paulus. he sure seemed like a thug.

it's clear that we would have lost this game last year (blow a 17 point lead and go down by 1) so it is very positive that we didn't fold when they took the lead. however, fsu really isn't very good and didn't play particularly well. we had 20 turnovers and it was more that we played badly. still, a road acc win is a road acc win. saturday's game will be tougher.

dukepsy1963
01-16-2008, 10:23 PM
Scheyer The Man, of course,...but I appreciated some of King's defensive moves in the first half. He's working on it.... he sure is!

Florida State's defense was much better than I thought it might be.

yancem
01-16-2008, 10:25 PM
Scheyer was channeling his inner JJ. This was the most aggressive I think he has been. Not only was he looking for his shot it looked like his shot was quicker. I don't know if it was because his normal hesitation was absent or if he has been specifically working on getting the ball of more quickly. Either was, I hope we see a lot more of that guy this year.

Bluedog
01-16-2008, 10:26 PM
Sportscenter: "Paulus kicks him, Reid gets the technical, Paulus gets nothing." This is at 11 PM....didn't they figure out it was a double technical or is ESPN just that stupid? Pathetic....

blazindw
01-16-2008, 10:28 PM
Maybe I'm doing this to see reactions, but here goes...

On SportsCenter tonight, John Buccigross was doing the Duke highlights. When they showed the scrum towards the end of the game involving Reid from FSU and GP3, Buccigross pointed out that "Paulus gave a little kick, but Reid gets the technical foul, and Paulus gets nothing!" Almost as if to say that Paulus did all the work and didn't get a tech that he should have received.

What I say? I don't care, we still won the game.

DBFAN
01-16-2008, 10:29 PM
Did anyone notice on sportscenter that they said the entanglement between Paulus and Reid, was basically all Paulus's fault, and that Paulus did not get a technical called on him. They blow my mind sometimes, it is enough for them to not like Duke but to outright lie about the who situation is amazing.

DBFAN
01-16-2008, 10:30 PM
I just started a new thread about the exact same thing, what is their deal?

Highlander
01-16-2008, 10:33 PM
After he was hit the first time in the face by another FSU player. Two or three seconds after the whistle and taking three steps towards Paulus, making a fist and swinging back into the pile is when Reid hits Paulus. A contributing factor to the punch looking "weak" was the fortunate fact that Paulus turned away and only caught a glancing blow to the side of his face, not the full face shot that Reid intended.

Just the opposite of the unfortunate result of Henderson's forearm at the end of last season. I can't believe that Reid wasn't ejected nor the lack of outrage by commentators after the act. Regardless of the lack of Reid being ejected for fighting I hope that the ACC officals suspend him for at least a game similar to Henderson's suspension last year.

Additonally I am not a lawyer but what is different between Reid's attack and an assualt and battery charge?

Did anybody else catch the FSU students chanting "Showboat Scheyer" in the second half? I got a chuckle out of that. The guy torches your team so you call him a showboat. That's like chanting "overrated" at JWill...

BDevilU
01-16-2008, 10:36 PM
Of course, the Duke-hating majority who did not watch the game will take this as gospel. They will also ignore the fact that the box score shows Paulus as having received a technical foul in that exchange. Yes, I know... lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Highlander
01-16-2008, 10:38 PM
One other thing on the Reid thing - from the cross court angle I saw on the replay, when Reid's hand goes by Paulus's face it's open, not clenched in a fist. I agree that from the back it looks like a sucker punch, but from the other angle I wasn't so sure.

Anyone else see the cross court angle?

JBDuke
01-16-2008, 10:43 PM
One other thing on the Reid thing - from the cross court angle I saw on the replay, when Reid's hand goes by Paulus's face it's open, not clenched in a fist. I agree that from the back it looks like a sucker punch, but from the other angle I wasn't so sure.

Anyone else see the cross court angle?

Yes, and I agree with your interpretation of it. Still, it was after the whistle, and I don't have any problem with Reid getting T'd up for it. However, those calling for a suspension for him throwing a punch need to look at that video.

DangerDevil
01-16-2008, 10:47 PM
I heard the same comments and was in disbelief. I will paraphrase but Buccigross made the following ridiculous, wrong comments:

ďPaulus rakes Reid across his wristsĒ (wrong, maybe incidental contact with Reidís facemask and Paulusís arm)

(Without mentioning the first shot to Paulusís face) Paulus kicks and gets nothing (wrong, double technical, check the box score on your own net works website)

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=280160052

(Nonchalantly mentions) Reid comes back, gets a technical (no mention that the whistle was blown several seconds before, Reid takes three steps, makes a closed fist and attempts to maliciously punch Paulus in the face, still drawing blood even though Greg fortunately moved his head so he didnít take a face shot.

Not that it will do any good but I plan to let ESPN know of Buccigrossís errors and my disgust over it. ESPN can be reached at the two links below:

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/mailbagESPN?event_id=17197

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?page=contact/espntv

devildeac
01-16-2008, 10:59 PM
I don't understand why Reid wasn't ejected from the game. Seriously, what am I missing?

2 words: acc refs

Acymetric
01-16-2008, 10:59 PM
Yes, and I agree with your interpretation of it. Still, it was after the whistle, and I don't have any problem with Reid getting T'd up for it. However, those calling for a suspension for him throwing a punch need to look at that video.

I would love to look at that video, but everyone doesn't have Tivo or DVR, so unless one of you is going to post it, I probably won't see it from a good angle, espn certainly won't bother.

elvis14
01-16-2008, 11:08 PM
Here are few things on my mind after tonight's FSU game:
This was a big big win for a young Duke team. I thought the Pitt loss was big (and still do) but it's nice to see the effects of that loss are not far reaching.
Any road win in the ACC is something to celebrate. FSU is a pretty good team (that doesn't mean I like them, I don't).
Scheyer was incredible in the first half tonight, very good thereafter and looked really tired by the end of game (that's not criticism, that's me saying he left it all on the court). I continue to be impressed by his hustle, toughness, and ability to make good things happen for Duke.
I would really like to see this team start to finish the first half of games and start the second half better. In years past, we would blow people out by finishing strong in the first half and starting strong in the second half. Teams would look up with 17 minutes left in the second half and try to figure out how they let the game get away from them. This year we seem to turn 15-17 point leads into 10 point half time leads and 6 point second half leads.
During the first half of this game I thought FSU was fouling the hell out of us and it was not being called. I thought this would come back to haunt us. Not only did it haunt us but it lead to the game getting chippy. Are we ever going to get a fair game called when we play FSU? It adds some frustration to watching the game...I'm not looking for frustration!
Singler showed poise and grit at the end of that game. There were moments in the game where I thought he looked kinda lost, however. I remind myself here that he's a freshman.
The toughness, poise and class Duke showed tonight impressed me greatly.
The lack of class showed by FSU players and fans did not impress me.
Duke played great defense in the first half. FSU played great defense in the second half.
Taylor King did some good things on the court tonight besides just trying to rain threes. I was impressed by his contributions on the defense end especially in the first half.
Paulus...what can you say? Great finish. I'll just leave it at that.
Smith did some good stuff and also did some stuff that you see freshman point guards do. If he could start knocking down the threes, that would be really cool.
I ready for Henderson to show back up as a dominant force (although he played good D and rebounded well tonight).
I need Lance to show up big in some games, especially with Brian out.
I could care less about announcers, I think they are all pretty bad and was bummed to have to skim so many posts in this thread about them.
Like others, I love this team and look forward to the Clemson game.

DangerDevil
01-16-2008, 11:15 PM
Yes, and I agree with your interpretation of it. Still, it was after the whistle, and I don't have any problem with Reid getting T'd up for it. However, those calling for a suspension for him throwing a punch need to look at that video.

I didn't see that angle, however I think that whether or not is fist is closed when he makes contact is irrelevant. I think that it is a clearly combative act if after the whistle blows an individual takes three steps back to the pile, clenches a fist, and then attempts to strike a defenseless person in the face. I could only find the 2006 NCAA rulebook, but it makes no differentiation between a closed fist or open hand, only an attempt to strike.

However, using the same definiton I guess you could try and apply the same interpretation to Greg's "kick" even though I think they are two completely different acts.

http://www.visitbloomington.com/docs/NCAARules.pdf


Page BR-73, Section 23 Fighting

Art.1 Fighting is an attempt to strike an opponent with the arms, hands, legs or feet, combative action by one or more players, a coach or other team personnel.

Art. 2. For any flagrant foul that is deemed to be a fight, the fighting penalty shall be invoked.

Art. 3. Combative action includes but is not exclusive to:
a. A player, coach or other team personnel attempting to punch or kick an opponent; whether there is contact with an opponent is irrelevant.
b. A player, coach or other team personnel who, in the opinion of a game official, instigates a fight by perpetrating an unsportsmanlike act toward an opponent that causes that opponent to retaliate by fighting.

GMR
01-16-2008, 11:18 PM
A gutsy win with Duke coming back in the last 4 minutes with a 16-2 run! Just when it looked like FSU was going to outplay the Devils for the entire second half, that Duke was going to blow a 17 point lead in the second half, and possibly lose the game, the Devils explode with Paulus leading the way down the stretch.

I thought Thomas' performance was very poor, and he didn't get many minutes. Duke's interior defense is so porous....FSU was scoring at will in the second half in the paint. It seems that when Duke begins losing a big lead, they tend to get away from their running game and go to a half court, one on one kind of offense. Why is that?

Paulus had a terrible game for 36 minutes...I also thought Nelson was not himself tonight. It seems as if he doesn't play as well when he goes up against smaller, quick and stronger guys that more closely resemble his game versus taller guys that he can outquick. I saw him get beat several times tonight on defense.

King played well in the first half, and not so well in the second. He didn't see as much playing time in the second half either. I thought Smith did not play particularly well tonight. He missed several shots, and was not confident. With FSU's small and quick players, he also got beat on defense a few times.

Henderson rebounded and played well around the rim. He struggled with drive penetrations, however. Scheyer was a star...perhaps his best game as a Duke player. I was surprised they didn't go to him more in the second half. Great game which Duke doesn't win unless Scheyer shines like he did.

Overall, a good win on the road in a tough place to play. My biggest concern remains Duke's interior defense and inside play overall. Watching the UNC/Ga. Tech game, it looked like either team would have their way with Duke inside, but neither plays the tough perimeter defense that Duke does.

Oh, forgot to mention, but a strong, gutsy performance by Singler. He is a real scrapper.

GMR

crimsonandblue
01-16-2008, 11:20 PM
And the Paulus kick, would that not also fall under your fighting definition if someone wanted to be nuts about it?

DangerDevil
01-16-2008, 11:21 PM
And the Paulus kick, would that not also fall under your fighting definition if someone wanted to be nuts about it?

Yes, that's why it's my last point before the definition.

crimsonandblue
01-16-2008, 11:40 PM
Yes, that's why it's my last point before the definition.

Mea culpa. Missed it. I just think the gnashing of teeth is silly. The refs handled it well, although they could have stepped in and had a chat with Reid after the first incident. Neither guy was "fighting" and the refs got that right.

Congrats on the tough, well-deserved win.

JBDuke
01-16-2008, 11:43 PM
I would love to look at that video, but everyone doesn't have Tivo or DVR, so unless one of you is going to post it, I probably won't see it from a good angle, espn certainly won't bother.

Luckily, I do have it on my DVR, and I went back and looked at the replay in slo-mo from the two different angles that ESPN showed us. Here's what I saw:

Reid grabbed the rebound. He brings it down and Greg swipes down at the ball. Greg hit Reid's face mask on the swipe. Greg got a lot of ball, but may have also hit Reid's hand or wrist. Regardless, there was no whistle or call and the ball is knocked loose.

Greg and Mims both grabbed the ball, although Mims had to let go very quickly to keep from falling onto Greg. The ref calls the jump ball based on this. Greg ends up lying on his back/side on the floor with Mims arching over his head - feet on one side, hands on the other.

AFTER THE WHISTLE - Swann comes in and makes a grab for the ball. It's very soon after the whistle, but definitely after it. In going for the ball, he basically gives a forearm shiver to Greg's face, which I assume is why Greg was holding his face after the incident. It looked pretty hard, but it also looked incidental to Swann's going for the ball. Greg kicks at Swann, probably in retaliation for what must have felt like a punch.

While Greg is on the floor and kicking back at Swann, the other four Duke players and Reid close in on Greg, Mims, and Swann. Jon appears to be just looking in to make sure everything's okay. It looks like Kyle is trying to pull Swann out of the incident from behind. G looks like he's pushing Swann back and reaching down to Greg. And Markie gets in front of Swann as Kyle is pulling Swann back from Greg.

We're now about three seconds AFTER the whistle, and Reid, standing between G and Jon, cocks back his right arm. It definitely LOOKS like he's throwing a punch. G looks like he's trying to keep Reid off Greg, Mims just looks like he's trying to get his feet under him so he can stand up, and Jon continues to stand behind Mims, watching.

From the other angle, you can really see Swann's arm connecting with Greg's face. This knocks Greg down on the side of his torso, Greg's legs come up, and he kicks out at Swann. Then, when he's rolling back to sit up, Reid's arm comes down. It looked to me like Reid's hand was open, and his arm kind of swipes at Greg. His forearm slams into the side of Greg's neck and knocks him back to the floor. Greg ends up laying on his back, but holding his face where Swann connect, not his neck where Reid did.

It's hard to tell exactly what Reid's intent was here. From the above angle, it definitely looks like he's throwing a punch. From the cross-court angle, it's much more ambiguous, and from Greg's reaction afterwards, it looks like the contact from Swann was the more painful of the two.

I think calling the double technical is fair. You probably could have added Swann into the mix, as he went after the ball after it had been blown dead, and he made excessive contact. But given how shortly it was after the whistle, I'm not surprised it wasn't called.

Greg deserved the technical for kicking at Swann, and Reid deserved his for lashing at Greg, especially so long after the whistle had blown - as Jay Bilas pointed out, he should have backed away instead.

Given the ambiguity from the cross-court angle, I'd be surprised if Reid was suspended or otherwise penalized by the league after the fact.

DangerDevil
01-16-2008, 11:47 PM
Mea culpa. Missed it. I just think the gnashing of teeth is silly. The refs handled it well, although they could have stepped in and had a chat with Reid after the first incident. Neither guy was "fighting" and the refs got that right.

I guess that we will have to agree to disagree on the following points:
1) that the refs handled the game well
2) more importantly that a calculated shot to the face, seconds after the whistle isn't a combative act/fighting, regardless if the player that was struck did not retaliate and cause the situation to escalate

Acymetric
01-16-2008, 11:50 PM
Luckily, I do have it on my DVR, and I went back and looked at the replay in slo-mo from the two different angles that ESPN showed us. Here's what I saw:

Reid grabbed the rebound. He brings it down and Greg swipes down at the ball. Greg hit Reid's face mask on the swipe. Greg got a lot of ball, but may have also hit Reid's hand or wrist. Regardless, there was no whistle or call and the ball is knocked loose.

Greg and Mims both grabbed the ball, although Mims had to let go very quickly to keep from falling onto Greg. The ref calls the jump ball based on this. Greg ends up lying on his back/side on the floor with Mims arching over his head - feet on one side, hands on the other.

AFTER THE WHISTLE - Swann comes in and makes a grab for the ball. It's very soon after the whistle, but definitely after it. In going for the ball, he basically gives a forearm shiver to Greg's face, which I assume is why Greg was holding his face after the incident. It looked pretty hard, but it also looked incidental to Swann's going for the ball. Greg kicks at Swann, probably in retaliation for what must have felt like a punch.

While Greg is on the floor and kicking back at Swann, the other four Duke players and Reid close in on Greg, Mims, and Swann. Jon appears to be just looking in to make sure everything's okay. It looks like Kyle is trying to pull Swann out of the incident from behind. G looks like he's pushing Swann back and reaching down to Greg. And Markie gets in front of Swann as Kyle is pulling Swann back from Greg.

We're now about three seconds AFTER the whistle, and Reid, standing between G and Jon, cocks back his right arm. It definitely LOOKS like he's throwing a punch. G looks like he's trying to keep Reid off Greg, Mims just looks like he's trying to get his feet under him so he can stand up, and Jon continues to stand behind Mims, watching.

From the other angle, you can really see Swann's arm connecting with Greg's face. This knocks Greg down on the side of his torso, Greg's legs come up, and he kicks out at Swann. Then, when he's rolling back to sit up, Reid's arm comes down. It looked to me like Reid's hand was open, and his arm kind of swipes at Greg. His forearm slams into the side of Greg's neck and knocks him back to the floor. Greg ends up laying on his back, but holding his face where Swann connect, not his neck where Reid did.

It's hard to tell exactly what Reid's intent was here. From the above angle, it definitely looks like he's throwing a punch. From the cross-court angle, it's much more ambiguous, and from Greg's reaction afterwards, it looks like the contact from Swann was the more painful of the two.

I think calling the double technical is fair. You probably could have added Swann into the mix, as he went after the ball after it had been blown dead, and he made excessive contact. But given how shortly it was after the whistle, I'm not surprised it wasn't called.

Greg deserved the technical for kicking at Swann, and Reid deserved his for lashing at Greg, especially so long after the whistle had blown - as Jay Bilas pointed out, he should have backed away instead.

Given the ambiguity from the cross-court angle, I'd be surprised if Reid was suspended or otherwise penalized by the league after the fact.

The one question I have, and something that I CAN see from the replays available to me, is that Reid definitely cocked back his arm. What possible reason would he have for doing this outside of striking Greg. Which one caused the most pain is irrevelent. It is the intent, not the result, which should determine the severity of the punishment. And I don't recall ever cocking back my arm for any reason other than hitting something, no matter what shape my hand made at the time.

elvis14
01-16-2008, 11:51 PM
One more thought. I wish McClure would have gotten a little more PT in the second half. His defense and rebounding would have been helpful in slowing down FSU when they got it going.

DangerDevil
01-16-2008, 11:53 PM
The one question I have, and something that I CAN see from the replays available to me, is that Reid definitely cocked back his arm. What possible reason would he have for doing this outside of striking Greg. Which one caused the most pain is irrevelent. It is the intent, not the result, which should determine the severity of the punishment. And I don't recall ever cocking back my arm for any reason other than hitting something, no matter what shape my hand made at the time.

Also along the lines of intent, Reid clearly makes a fist while cocking his arm and walking back to the pile. Even if he opens his hand by the time he makes contact, or if he misses his intended target (Paulus's face) that doesn't matter in my opinion nor in my interpretation of the NCAA fighting rule.

Jumbo
01-17-2008, 12:04 AM
Anyone who has played organized ball at almost any level knows getting under an opponents skin is part of the game. An intentional swing/punch that required 2 steps toward a player on the floor well after the whistle is not. Reid deserves the same suspension Chris Paul received for his cheap shot.

I've played plenty of organized ball. I'd debate whether that's "part of the game," but Paulus wasn't just being a pest -- he was being chippy at various points in a phyiscal manner. He didn't deserve to get punched. He deserved the double technical, and this isn't the first time he has done stuff that the refs might not have seen, but have caused other players to react.

Jumbo
01-17-2008, 12:06 AM
:confused: My ethics classes have discussed this type of person.They are usually hollow, suck ups.Remember,this is the guy who got a grant -in-aid to Duke , may have been the 6th best player on the 1986 team(Danny Ferry was the 6th man),and uttered those incredible words,"If I had not gone to school there, I would probably have hated Duke ,too." Having attended Yale and Harvard and been a professor at Cambridge and Oxford, I still believe Duke is the greatest academic experience of my life.I did not see anything to hate there--rather,much to admire.I consider it a privilege that I was allowed to attend Duke.A number of family members would concur.Obviously, I do not feel that anyone who has been extended that privilege should sully his school with a noxious comment to promote his career among a Duke-hating fraternity. Why would anyone be shocked by his role as a poseur?Jay is a careerist---nothing more,nothing less.
:) Color me totally,unconditionally proud of Duke.Best regards--Professor of ethics

I think/thought Jay's anlaysis/announcing was excellent. I guess some people just listen to the broadcast looking for reasons to get angry.

Jumbo
01-17-2008, 12:07 AM
Did anybody else catch the FSU students chanting "Showboat Scheyer" in the second half? I got a chuckle out of that. The guy torches your team so you call him a showboat. That's like chanting "overrated" at JWill...

I thought it was "shut up Scheyer." But, they're FSU fans. What do you expect?

edensquad
01-17-2008, 12:21 AM
Sorry if this has been mentioned and I missed it: our motion offense sure didn't have much "motion" in the 2nd half. I watched the game with 2 longtime Dukies (and pretty sharp observers), and we all noticed that, after the obligatory high screen, we had an awful lot of one-on-one while 4 guys stood around and watched.

Still, a ton of heart down the stretch and a good road win.

feldspar
01-17-2008, 12:36 AM
Well, well, well. What a night to not set my TiVo correctly. Waited up all night for SportsCenter highlights.

The topic has been hashed out ad nauseum, so I'll be short.

Paulus deserved the technical. He also deserves to be called out for acting like a little girl, kicking and sprawling on the floor like that. Lately, I've tired of Paulus' attitude. He routinely gets frustrated by crappy play and responds not by kicking it up a mental notch, but by committing silly, frustrated, ticky tack fouls. Tonight, he earned himself a technical foul.

Reid deserved a technical as well. JB's analysis of the play was spot on. From the angle at Reid's back, it sure looks like a punch, but from the other replay, it's way too ambiguous to go to the monitor, much less call a flagrant right then and there. In big-time college basketball, it better be a real punch if you're going to call it a real punch because you've just disqualified a guy for his next game. Refs don't take that lightly.

And, as I mentioned in another thread, I didn't mind Jay Bilas as long as he wasn't spouting off yet more incorrect and harmful opinions on the rules of college basketball as if he were some sort of authority on the subject. Frankly, it's silly how uneducated the commentators in general are on officiating. They routinely and unabashedly misinterpret, misconstrue and downright make up rules as they go along and it's harmful to the game because it misinforms the millions of fans who watch the game and then go complain about how their team/player/coach got screwed by the refs. (ie, Georgetown last year against Vandy in the NCAAT)

Not that the refs are perfect, by any means. Rich's layup with 3:45 to go in the game was an absolute travesty of a travel which wasn't called. I don't think it's humanly possible for a college basketball player to begin a layup from the top of the 3-pt arc and execute it all the way to the hoop legally in traffic. Just doesn't happen.

ojaidave
01-17-2008, 12:49 AM
AFTER THE WHISTLE - Swann comes in and makes a grab for the ball. It's very soon after the whistle, but definitely after it. In going for the ball, he basically gives a forearm shiver to Greg's face, which I assume is why Greg was holding his face after the incident. It looked pretty hard, but it also looked incidental to Swann's going for the ball. Greg kicks at Swann, probably in retaliation for what must have felt like a punch.

From the other angle, you can really see Swann's arm connecting with Greg's face. This knocks Greg down on the side of his torso, Greg's legs come up, and he kicks out at Swann. Then, when he's rolling back to sit up, Reid's arm comes down. It looked to me like Reid's hand was open, and his arm kind of swipes at Greg. His forearm slams into the side of Greg's neck and knocks him back to the floor. Greg ends up laying on his back, but holding his face where Swann connect, not his neck where Reid did.


Good recap, however after watching the replay slomo in HD, I disagree that you cannot tell Swann's intent. From the cross court angle, you see Paulus with Mims on top of him looking up towards the ref, at which point Swann is reaching down with his right hand making contact with the ball. Swann's left hand, however, does not move towards the ball at all - rather he drops his left hand down and slightly back (away from Paulus and the ball) before swinging his left forearm (with his left hand closed into a fist) into Paulus' face. It is at that point Paulus kicks Swann to get him away, followed quickly by Reid chopping Paulus.

An absolutely dirty play by Swann. I don't think I've ever seen a play where two players take intentional shots at a guy and no one gets ejected. Hopefully, the league will review that play. Ugly.

Gutty win tonight. I agree with Jumbo, Duke's turnovers gave life to FSU. Execute a little better early in the second half and FSU loses by 20+

My $.02

Dave

DevilCastDownfromDurham
01-17-2008, 12:51 AM
I heard "shut up Scheyer" as well. I also thought it was funny that you could plainly hear an F$U fan scream (mockingly) "take the shot, Paulus" and then Greg drove directly to the basket and hit a big shot. In general I though the F$U fans were really, REALLY obnoxious. Not old-school Maryland bad (i.e. "rape Duke" signs and bottles thrown) but far beyond what I'm used to hearing. Anyone know if they were actually worse or the TV just generally doesn't pick up this kind of stuff but did tonight?

Other thoughts:

- I echo what a lot of people said, this is EXACTLY the sort of game we lost last season. Gutty play from a number of guys carried us and it made me incredibly proud.

- That said, we still look like a "live by the 3, die by the 3" offense tonight, and that makes me nervous. Kyle hit a tough shot, but if it had rimmed out (as a lot did tonight) I think the tenor of our discussion would be very different. I hope our guys celebrate like crazy tonight (they've earned it) and tomorrow they start figuring out some O that isn't either a 3 or one-on-one.

- King really impressed me (again). He made some good passes, played very solid D, got some tough rebounds and even blocked a couple of shots. At this point he looks like our best post guy. (I won't pile on Lance too much since everyone saw the game, but if that's our best option we're in serious trouble.)

- I'm a big defender of the delay/slow-down game and would be remiss if I didn't mention that it was a major weapon for us tonight. The last 2-3 minutes saw us successfully run down the clock and generate some good shots. Obviously the T padded our final score, but it was nip-and-tuck there and the delay worked very well as we clung to our lead.

Overall, I'm pretty happy right now. Gritty game, and hopefully a breakout for Jon. We also got to silence some of the most obnoxious fans I'm heard in quite a while. Now that they stink at football, someone remind me why Free Shoes U is still in the ACC?

Bob Green
01-17-2008, 01:01 AM
Obviously the T padded our final score, but it was nip-and-tuck there and the delay worked very well as we clung to our lead.



How did the T pad our final score? It was a double technical and no free throws were awarded to either team. Paulus shot foul shots because he was fouled prior to the double T being called. At least that is what I saw.

DangerDevil
01-17-2008, 01:03 AM
Well, well, well. What a night to not set my TiVo correctly. Waited up all night for SportsCenter highlights.

The topic has been hashed out ad nauseum, so I'll be short.

Paulus deserved the technical. He also deserves to be called out for acting like a little girl, kicking and sprawling on the floor like that. Lately, I've tired of Paulus' attitude. He routinely gets frustrated by crappy play and responds not by kicking it up a mental notch, but by committing silly, frustrated, ticky tack fouls. Tonight, he earned himself a technical foul.

A few questions for you:
1) Other than your example above (which I don't agree with) when has Greg acted like a "little girl"?
2) If you are giving technicals to everyone involved in the scrum how come Swann doesn't get one for his fist to Greg's face after the whistle and before Greg's "kick"?
3) How can you possibly question someone's attitude/mental toughness after he repeatedly gets punched/hit in the face, not just the above mentioned incidents but also the after the whistle contact made by Reid a few minutes before and yet rather than get up throwing punches Greg has the presence of mind/mental toughness to walk away?

Question his performance if you want to but no way you can question his mental toughness/leadership.

feldspar
01-17-2008, 01:13 AM
How did the T pad our final score? It was a double technical and no free throws were awarded to either team. Paulus shot foul shots because he was fouled prior to the double T being called. At least that is what I saw.

ESPN is perpetuating the myth every hour now until the sun comes up. In their re-cap, they state at the end that "Reid is called for the technical, Paulus hits the free throws....and Duke wins 70-57."

According to the box score (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1370028), Greg and Reid got technicals right on top of each other (double technical) at the :30 mark, then Toney Douglas committed a foul, again at the :30 second mark (I can't explain this since I don't have it on tape) for which Greg hit two free throws. The free throws were for the foul on Toney, not the technical on Reid.

feldspar
01-17-2008, 01:22 AM
A few questions for you:
1) Other than your example above (which I don't agree with) when has Greg acted like a "little girl"?

I wish I had the tape from the Virigina game the other night. On two separate occasions--one on a missed layup and the other on a turnover--Paulus responds by committing a silly, stupid foul, then huffs his way down the court frustrated and upset. It's happened in nearly every game I've watched since the end of December. Sometimes his attitude reminds me of Josh McRoberts' last year. And a 12-year old girl who whined and moped about every foul I called on her last weekend. Hence the "little girl" reference.



2) If you are giving technicals to everyone involved in the scrum how come Swann doesn't get one for his fist to Greg's face after the whistle and before Greg's "kick"?

Who said "everyone involved in the scrum" received or even deserved technicals?


3) How can you possibly question someone's attitude/mental toughness after he repeatedly gets punched/hit in the face, not just the above mentioned incidents but also the after the whistle contact made by Reid a few minutes before and yet rather than get up throwing punches Greg has the presence of mind/mental toughness to walk away?

I generally had trouble understand your above statement, but it seems as though what you're getting at is that Paulus was the victim here and kudos to him for not going kamikaze all over FSU because he fell to the ground on a loose ball and three Florida State players wanted to try and gain possession of said ball.

From my views of the replay, Swann's contact on Greg was completely incidental, but Greg's "mental toughness" causes him to instead assume that it was a vicious blow to his cranium and start flailing his legs around in an attempt to subdue his would-be attacker. I dunno. His play down the stretch was gutty, but I wouldn't single out this play as a great example of his "mental toughness" nor "presence of mind."

ojaidave
01-17-2008, 01:49 AM
Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gzRtB09mzk) is video of the scrum. Thanks YouTube!

wisteria
01-17-2008, 02:16 AM
I just went over to a Chinese students' forum and there was this thread accusing Paulus kicking FSU players. (On a side note, it's pretty anti-Duke over there too. Apparently the Duke hatred spreads to international students as well. ) And the evidence they were citing was that ESPN said Paulus got away without a T.

I rightfully pointed out the truth. But sadly, I just know that my post will get unnoticed as usual. (It's pretty hard being resident on that board, where you have fans from schools all over the country who faithfully buy into the same "Duke gets every call" theory.) :confused:

Bob Green
01-17-2008, 04:02 AM
I just finished watching the game on my VCR (yes, I still own & use a VCR) and the Refs missed a hard foul at the 5:32 mark when Reid hooked Jon Scheyer and flung him to the court.

In the scrum at the :32 second mark both Paulus & Reid deserved the Technical Fouls they received. Paulus for kicking and Reid for slapping.

Bob Green
01-17-2008, 06:19 AM
The victory over FSU was the halfway point of the regular season. We are 14-1 with 15 games left to play. The next 15 games will be tougher as we face 14 ACC teams including seven road games. However, I am satisfied with our 14-1 start and optimistic we will continue to have success. There has been much great discussion, in multiple threads, about the strengths and weaknesses of this year's team but there are three strengths that standout in my opinion:

1. The development of the Freshman. Singler, Smith, and King are all improving with every game.
2. Balanced scoring. Nelson, Singler, Scheyer, Henderson, and King all have the ability to go out on a given night and lead the team in scoring. Our opponents have to prepare to focus on our multiple scoring threats.
3. Rebounding. We are a strong rebounding team. Henderson, Nelson and Scheyer are excellent rebounding guards. King and Singler both work hard on the boards. Despite playing small, we are working the glass.

The two concerns I have are:

1. Productivity from our interior players. We need Zoubek healthy or Thomas focused.
2. Turnovers. We need to do a better job distributing the basketball.

gw67
01-17-2008, 07:14 AM
I don't have the energy to read 125 posts so forgive me if my thoughts are rehashing points that have been made several times before:

The most impressive part of the Devils' game last night was their work on the boards. The entire team went after the defensive rebounds and kept FS from getting second chances.
There were several weak areas: ballhandling/passing, shooting and some defensive lapses (particularly against Rich in the 2nd half). Many of these were the result of a high energy, pesky play by FS.
The starters weren't in the game in the first half and Scheyer/King put the Devils ahead with strong performances. In the second half, Nelson, Singler, Henderson and Paulus made some plays. Thomas and McClure did not contribute much.

It was a good road win against an average team.

gw67

dukeENG2003
01-17-2008, 07:39 AM
There were no personal fouls called during the scrum, just the double T's. It was a jump ball. Then there was a foul on the ensuing inbounds play.

To me, it was a combative act. He had no reason to go into that pile. The only thing I think should have been called differently is that I believe he should have been ejected. No additional T's, but if you've got a player who is clearly interested in taking out his frustrations in a physical manner, he should be removed from the game before things get uglier. Paulus's act deserved a T too, but no ejection, since it was in self defense (he WAS in a truly defenseless position, call it girly, but how else was he supposed to defend himself?).

And FSU's fans were embarassing.

blueprofessor
01-17-2008, 07:49 AM
I think/thought Jay's anlaysis/announcing was excellent. I guess some people just listen to the broadcast looking for reasons to get angry.

:) Disappointed, but not angry--- just reflecting on Jay's body of work.Projecting motives on others with whom you disagree should not be your
modus operandi as you certainly are an informed poster . Whether you inject yourself into a number of disagreements is irrelevant.Still, a good number of reasonable folks,including students who have no dog in the fight and Duke people, indeed agree that Bilas plays to a fraternity of Duke haters.Some ambitious people do that,you know.
Best regards--Professor of ethics:)

SMO
01-17-2008, 07:51 AM
Sportscenter: "Paulus kicks him, Reid gets the technical, Paulus gets nothing." This is at 11 PM....didn't they figure out it was a double technical or is ESPN just that stupid? Pathetic....

I think the morning SportsCenter got it correct and identified the punch by Reid. Not even ESPN could sugercoat this one.

SMO
01-17-2008, 08:01 AM
Well, well, well. What a night to not set my TiVo correctly. Waited up all night for SportsCenter highlights.

The topic has been hashed out ad nauseum, so I'll be short.

Paulus deserved the technical. He also deserves to be called out for acting like a little girl, kicking and sprawling on the floor like that. Lately, I've tired of Paulus' attitude. He routinely gets frustrated by crappy play and responds not by kicking it up a mental notch, but by committing silly, frustrated, ticky tack fouls. Tonight, he earned himself a technical foul.

Reid deserved a technical as well. JB's analysis of the play was spot on. From the angle at Reid's back, it sure looks like a punch, but from the other replay, it's way too ambiguous to go to the monitor, much less call a flagrant right then and there. In big-time college basketball, it better be a real punch if you're going to call it a real punch because you've just disqualified a guy for his next game. Refs don't take that lightly.

And, as I mentioned in another thread, I didn't mind Jay Bilas as long as he wasn't spouting off yet more incorrect and harmful opinions on the rules of college basketball as if he were some sort of authority on the subject. Frankly, it's silly how uneducated the commentators in general are on officiating. They routinely and unabashedly misinterpret, misconstrue and downright make up rules as they go along and it's harmful to the game because it misinforms the millions of fans who watch the game and then go complain about how their team/player/coach got screwed by the refs. (ie, Georgetown last year against Vandy in the NCAAT)

Not that the refs are perfect, by any means. Rich's layup with 3:45 to go in the game was an absolute travesty of a travel which wasn't called. I don't think it's humanly possible for a college basketball player to begin a layup from the top of the 3-pt arc and execute it all the way to the hoop legally in traffic. Just doesn't happen.


Aren't you the same Feldspar that defended Henderson's flagrant foul and suspension last year? And now you're saying THIS is too ambiguous?!?! I think Feldspar is actually Jay Bilas!

wilson
01-17-2008, 08:14 AM
I'm sure this sentiment has already been expressed somewhere in this thread, but I don't much want to read all five pages of it.
The primary thought in my mind as last night's game wound down was that this was the type of game that last year's team would not have won. It had all the hallmarks of our "well, we played 35 or so pretty good minutes" contests from last season, right down to the enemy taking the lead around the 4-minute mark. Honestly, I'm not sure I'd say we played even 35 "good" minutes by this team's standards. They were, however, tough minutes, and toughness is often just as good as goodness (that might be the most profound phrase I've ever authored;)).
Last year, the team would have looked lost and unsure of itself in those last four minutes. This year, they buckled down on defense, cranked a smart offensive game back up, and played with, for lack of a more delicate term to describe it, balls. It was great to see.

vango
01-17-2008, 08:20 AM
The refs:

The "Duke gets the calls" thing is played out. Like I tell the many UNC fan colleagues I have at work, these guys (the refs) are human. They're professionals. They don't want to come off as one-sided, favoring a team, bowing to a coach, etc. You can be sure they know of the "Duke bias" and if anything they're gonna make sure that doesn't happen and they're not accused of that. If anything - in the back of the refs minds - the other team probably gets the benefit of the doubt.

In this game - up to the end where FSU had to foul - they were well in the lead in fouls and were in the bonus before we were in the 1/1 I believe. The announcers mentioned Hamilton saying a key to victory was to out-freethrow-shoot Duke. That was happening.

The incident

I thought it was fairly judged. Paulus took a hard swipe at that ball but he went for the ball and it was legal. Paulus kicked on the ground but it looked like he did it in reaction to getting hit. Still, thought he deserved his T. Reid got what he deserved with the T but I think the league should take a look at it - maybe issue a warning to Hamilton and Reid that he is on a short leash. That was a weak slap but it was an intentional slap outside the play of the game. Paulus' kick could be argued as part of trying to maintain possession but it's a tough call.

I have to agree with Feldspar that Paulus does some questionable things out there. Nothing unfair/foul-ish and some might argue such is part of gamesmanship. To me he'd be an aggravating somebody out there. I notice that during deadballs he will walk in front of players very closely to cut them off. He'll walk in front of an opposing players path and then stop to make them walk around him. I think he exaggerates and flops some. As a sportsman probably not the best behavior but nothing wrong within the rules either. I can understand how he can get under an opposing players skin and why he could be the most hated Dukie.

Nobody has mentioned here but if you look at one of the timeout breaks - minutes before the T's, Paulus is walking back to the Duke bench and one FSU player, looked like Reid, gave him a shoulder as he was going by. It happened in the paint area near the free throw line at the "left" end of the court just before the telecast went to commercial. When I saw that I thought to myself - something is going to happen here and soon. Sure enough....

bjornolf
01-17-2008, 08:22 AM
I don't know what replay you guys are looking at, but it looks from the cross-court replay on YouTube AND on my TiVo that Swann swings his arm PAST the ball to swat Paulus in the face AFTER the whistle blew. If you watch the YouTube video VERY closely and use the pause button, you can see Swann hang his left arm very limply with his right hand on the ball loosely (right at the 2:00 mark of the YouTube counter). His ENTIRE left arm then tenses (you can see the muscles bulge VERY clearly at the 2:01 mark), he closes his fist tightly, and swings his forearm across GP's face. THEN he grabs the ball as his arm rebounds (2:02 mark). He didn't need to hit GP's face to get a hand on the ball. Paulus' kick was in response to that. So, personally, I see a TRIPLE technical.

wilson
01-17-2008, 08:27 AM
I don't know what replay you guys are looking at, but it looks from the cross-court replay on YouTube AND on my TiVo that Swann swings his arm PAST the ball to swat Paulus in the face AFTER the whistle blew. If you watch the YouTube video VERY closely and use the pause button, you can see Swann hang his left arm very limply with his right hand on the ball loosely (right at the 2:00 mark of the YouTube counter). His ENTIRE left arm then tenses (you can see the muscles bulge VERY clearly at the 2:01 mark), he closes his fist tightly, and swings his forearm across GP's face. THEN he grabs the ball as his arm rebounds (2:02 mark). He didn't need to hit GP's face to get a hand on the ball. Paulus' kick was in response to that. So, personally, I see a TRIPLE technical.

YouTube link?

dyedwab
01-17-2008, 08:29 AM
If we want this type of misreporting to stop, then it is incumbent upon the communications officers in the Duke Athletic department to immediately be on the phone with producers, editors, and the anchor himself at ESPN screaming about this.

this is not about whining about the "everyone hates Duke" mentality. this is a reporter who covers Duke getting something factually wrong on a broadcast to the detriment of Duke. It is unacceptable.

In politics, this stuff happens ALL of the time - both the error and the response. the reason political people do what I just suggested? Because it works. Reporters, etc. tend to be a heckuva lot more careful after they from the affected party after committing an error.

Ignoring it just lets Duke lose a little bit more control of the image and message it wants to present.

Just mho.

bjornolf
01-17-2008, 08:32 AM
Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gzRtB09mzk) is video of the scrum. Thanks YouTube!

sorry, it was in ojaidave's post about ten up.

DukieInKansas
01-17-2008, 08:33 AM
The report I heard on Sportscenter indicated that Paulus got two free throws from the technical. I didn't remember seeing him take any free throws. I just saw us get the ball. Seeing here that he got a T also, I'm assuming that no one took shots due to the double T and we got the ball on the possession arrow. Is that correct?

bjornolf
01-17-2008, 08:33 AM
sorry, it was in ojaidave's post about ten up.

that was impressive. I didn't even count, and it was EXACTLY ten posts before mine. Head swelling...must take slow, deep breaths... gasp...

bjornolf
01-17-2008, 08:36 AM
So, personally, I see a TRIPLE technical.

If there WAS a triple technical, would free throws have been taken for the third, or do uneven technicals still result in offsetting penalties?

Fish80
01-17-2008, 08:36 AM
2007 NCAA MENíS AND WOMENíS BASKETBALL RULES AND INTERPRETATIONS

http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/2007/2007_m_w_basketball_rules.pdf

"Section 17. Fighting
Art. 1. Fighting, as defined in Rule 4-23, includes, but is not limited to:
a. An attempt to strike an opponent with the arms, hands, legs or feet.
b. An attempt to punch or kick an opponent, regardless of whether
contact is made.
c. An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsportsmanlike
act toward an opponent that causes the opponent to retaliate by
fighting.
As determined by the officials, fighting is a flagrant foul and can be either
personal (during a live ball) or technical (during a dead ball)."

"Section 18. Penalty for Fighting/Flagrant Personal Fouls
Art. 1. When fighting occurs during a dead ball, it shall be ruled a flagrant
technical foul. (See Rule 10-14 for penalty.)
A.R. 218. After a violation by A2, A1 gets involved in a fight. B6 leaves the bench and enters the court but does not participate in the fight. A1 shall be ejected and shall be subject to the fighting penalty and suspension. Any player from Team B is permitted to attempt the two free throws for A1ís infraction. B6 shall be ejected for leaving the confines of the bench area and entering the playing court. No free-throw penalty or direct technical shall be assessed to B6. Because B6 did not participate in the fight, no fighting
suspension shall be involved. The acts committed by A1 and B6 are not offsetting; they are two separate acts."

While I can understand Paulus' reaction, under the rules, an attempt to kick an opponent is considered fighting. Both Reid and Paulus might be looking at a one game suspension.

How quickly will we know if there's any penalty?

Duvall
01-17-2008, 08:37 AM
The report I heard on Sportscenter indicated that Paulus got two free throws from the technical. I didn't remember seeing him take any free throws. I just saw us get the ball. Seeing here that he got a T also, I'm assuming that no one took shots due to the double T and we got the ball on the possession arrow. Is that correct?

That is correct. Unsurprisingly, Mike Patrick completely missed this.

DukeVol
01-17-2008, 08:40 AM
Feldspar,
WE GET IT! You don't like Paulus. However, there was absolutely NO reason for Reid to go into the pile WELL AFTER the whistle had been blown. I'll give Swann a pass (although that could have easily been considered intentional), but Reid's action were inexcusable. As to Paulus's reaction, if I were on the ground in a vulnerable position taking punishment like that, I would f@#$in' react too...I don't blame him one bit. Especially since he was just knocked down by Reid on an earlier play....AFTER the whistle!!

Acting like a 12 year old girl would involve NOT diving on the floor and putting yourself at risk for injury to help the team win. I don't question Paulus's toughness or will to win for a second. You're in the ANTI-Paulus crowd, I get it...Smith should start blah blah blah....

feldspar
01-17-2008, 08:41 AM
How quickly will we know if there's any penalty?

I'm putting my money on nothing else happening. Yes, Paulus' flailing could have been interpreted as an attempt to "kick another opponent" and, viewed very liberally, Reid's arm movement could have been interpreted as an attempted punch but, as I said, it's gotta be pretty blatant* for the refs to call it a flagrant, much less the league dole out a suspension AFTER the game is already finished and no flagrants were given.

*ie, Chris Paul blatant.

bjornolf
01-17-2008, 08:47 AM
While I can understand Paulus' reaction, under the rules, an attempt to kick an opponent is considered fighting. Both Reid and Paulus might be looking at a one game suspension.

How quickly will we know if there's any penalty?

I guess GP is supposed to lie there and get punched MULTIPLE times in the head and not respond at all? If there is NO way for you to walk away and protect yourself, you have to create space out of self-preservation. He was grabbed three times and forearm shivered once BEFORE he kicked out. THEN he was forearm shivered again from behind. If he was standing and punched or kicked back instead of walking away, I would agree 100%. If he was on his back and punched or kicked first, I would agree 100%. However, when lying helpless on the ground with six people standing over you, four of them seemingly trying to hurt you, I can't say I blame him if he panicked a little. I played football and rugby in high school and at Duke, and I have to admit that I've done that once or twice when being piled on. The feeling of pain and helplessness kind of forces it out of you. I've ALWAYS walked away if I was on my feet, but you don't always have that option when there are five bodies holding you down.

That said, it is a rule, so I won't complain if GP gets suspended, as long as Swann and Reid get the same treatment. If they do not, I will be really steamed.

Fish80
01-17-2008, 08:55 AM
I guess GP is supposed to lie there and get punched MULTIPLE times in the head and not respond at all? If there is NO way for you to walk away and protect yourself, you have to create space out of self-preservation. He was grabbed three times and forearm shivered once BEFORE he kicked out. THEN he was forearm shivered again from behind. If he was standing and punched or kicked back instead of walking away, I would agree 100%. If he was on his back and punched or kicked first, I would agree 100%. However, when lying helpless on the ground with six people standing over you, four of them seemingly trying to hurt you, I can't say I blame him if he panicked a little. I played football and rugby in high school and at Duke, and I have to admit that I've done that once or twice when being piled on. The feeling of pain and helplessness kind of forces it out of you. I've ALWAYS walked away if I was on my feet, but you don't always have that option when there are five bodies holding you down.

That said, it is a rule, so I won't complain if GP gets suspended, as long as Swann and Reid get the same treatment. If they do not, I will be really steamed.

I agree, I understand Paulus' reaction. They're in the heat of a battle, things are happening fast, it's a very natural protective action. I'm just wondering what happens now? Hopefully feldspar is right, and there won't be any further disciplinary action. But if there is, I'm concerned it will be on both Paulus and Reid.

Duvall
01-17-2008, 08:57 AM
I'm putting my money on nothing else happening. Yes, Paulus' flailing could have been interpreted as an attempt to "kick another opponent" and, viewed very liberally, Reid's arm movement could have been interpreted as an attempted punch but, as I said, it's gotta be pretty blatant* for the refs to call it a flagrant, much less the league dole out a suspension AFTER the game is already finished and no flagrants were given.

*ie, Chris Paul blatant.

You seem to have assumed that ACC punishments are based on rational decisionmaking, rather than mob rule. An interesting theory.

Tom B.
01-17-2008, 08:58 AM
Someone at ESPN must have gotten the message, because the morning edition of SportsCenter was singing a different tune. All they said about Paulus was that he "went for the ball" and "knocked it loose," then there was a tie up on the floor. Then they did a freeze-frame and spot-shadowed Reid to highlight the fact that he walked over after the play was blown dead and took a swing at Paulus while he was still on the floor.

They still failed to note, however, that Paulus also received a technical foul in the exchange.

4decadedukie
01-17-2008, 09:05 AM
Reid's egregious, intentional foul -- punching Paulus in the head after the play's action concluded -- was the most unsportsmanlike conduct ACC MBB has seen since Hodges was punched in the groin by Paul. I was shocked that the refs did not immediately eject Reid and I was disappointed that Hamilton did not instantaneously bench him. I believe he merits at least a two-game suspension and will be dissatisfied if the ACC fails to do so.

feldspar
01-17-2008, 09:06 AM
Feldspar,
You're in the ANTI-Paulus crowd, I get it...Smith should start blah blah blah....

:confused:

feldspar
01-17-2008, 09:07 AM
I believe he merits at least a two-game suspension and will be dissatisfied if the ACC fails to do so.

Then you'll be dissatisfied.

blueprofessor
01-17-2008, 09:16 AM
:) Jack Corcoran :http://www.tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080116/FSU05/801160387/0/NEWS01
Also, Isaiah Swann was quoted as stating Paulus held him and that allowed the steal.
The game chant you may have heard was "ACC Refs" !The locals think the ACC refs jobbed them last night,as they allegedly have in football.LOL.Tough,well-deserved win by the Devils.
Best regards.:D

CDu
01-17-2008, 09:17 AM
Reid's egregious, intentional foul -- punching Paulus in the head after the play's action concluded -- was the most unsportsmanlike conduct ACC MBB has seen since Hodges was punched in the groin by Paul. I was shocked that the refs did not immediately eject Reid and I was disappointed that Hamilton did not instantaneously bench him. I believe he merits at least a two-game suspension and will be dissatisfied if the ACC fails to do so.

Well, for one thing, it wasn't all that great a punch. For another, it didn't actually catch Paulus in the head or face. And since Chris Paul only got suspended for one game for what was a much bigger offense (in my book), I highly doubt you'll see a suspension of at least two games for Reid's actions. I wouldn't be surprised if he's given no suspension.

jzp5079
01-17-2008, 09:18 AM
It was still bad, but didn't look NEARLY as bad from the front camera view as it did from the back. Unfortunately they played that back camera view about 10 more times then the front camera view.

anyone else notice this?

CDu
01-17-2008, 09:28 AM
It was still bad, but didn't look NEARLY as bad from the front camera view as it did from the back. Unfortunately they played that back camera view about 10 more times then the front camera view.

anyone else notice this?

Somewhat reminiscent of the Henderson foul on Hansbrough. From the under-the-basket angle, it looks like Henderson punches Hansbrough. From the mid-court angle, it's clear that he is blindly/wildly trying to prevent the layup, and his elbow hits Hansbrough. But ESPN showed a lot more replays of the under-the-basket angle.

Stig
01-17-2008, 09:30 AM
The kid throws a weak punch but how can you let players retaliate. That's obviously what he was doing. Suspension is needed.

Channing
01-17-2008, 09:31 AM
It was still bad, but didn't look NEARLY as bad from the front camera view as it did from the back. Unfortunately they played that back camera view about 10 more times then the front camera view.

anyone else notice this?

I noticed this also. From the front angle it didnt even look like it was a closed fist. Now, Reid had no business being in there in the first place, as the whistle blew 4 or 5 seconds earlier - but to say it was some premeditated attempt at injury is misplaced, imo

Duke4Ever32
01-17-2008, 09:33 AM
Just posting these observations because I haven't seen them mentioned elsewhere.

I live in Florida so was at the game last night. After the much-discussed incident between Paulus and Reid near the end of the game, much of the fans at the end of the arena where Duke was shooting started chanting "F*** you, Paulus" over and over again, which was somewhat audible on the ESPN telecast as I watched it this morning. I couldn't help but think of the Maryland fans when this happened.

Also, after the game was over and the teams were leaving, several fans had made a concerted effort to gather in the stands near the exit the players were leaving through, and as Paulus was leaving they all started chanting "You suck Paulus".

And in watching the telecast this morning, you can clearly hear an FSU fan saying something along the lines of "if he didn't get hit hard enough yet, hit him again" after Paulus was punched.

Totally classless behavior by the FSU fans. There isn't a university in the country that I have less respect for and more disdain for than FSU. May they never win another game...in any sport.

77devil
01-17-2008, 09:41 AM
Luckily, I do have it on my DVR, and I went back and looked at the replay in slo-mo from the two different angles that ESPN showed us. Here's what I saw:

Reid grabbed the rebound. He brings it down and Greg swipes down at the ball. Greg hit Reid's face mask on the swipe. Greg got a lot of ball, but may have also hit Reid's hand or wrist. Regardless, there was no whistle or call and the ball is knocked loose.

Greg and Mims both grabbed the ball, although Mims had to let go very quickly to keep from falling onto Greg. The ref calls the jump ball based on this. Greg ends up lying on his back/side on the floor with Mims arching over his head - feet on one side, hands on the other.

AFTER THE WHISTLE - Swann comes in and makes a grab for the ball. It's very soon after the whistle, but definitely after it. In going for the ball, he basically gives a forearm shiver to Greg's face, which I assume is why Greg was holding his face after the incident. It looked pretty hard, but it also looked incidental to Swann's going for the ball. Greg kicks at Swann, probably in retaliation for what must have felt like a punch.

While Greg is on the floor and kicking back at Swann, the other four Duke players and Reid close in on Greg, Mims, and Swann. Jon appears to be just looking in to make sure everything's okay. It looks like Kyle is trying to pull Swann out of the incident from behind. G looks like he's pushing Swann back and reaching down to Greg. And Markie gets in front of Swann as Kyle is pulling Swann back from Greg.

We're now about three seconds AFTER the whistle, and Reid, standing between G and Jon, cocks back his right arm. It definitely LOOKS like he's throwing a punch. G looks like he's trying to keep Reid off Greg, Mims just looks like he's trying to get his feet under him so he can stand up, and Jon continues to stand behind Mims, watching.

From the other angle, you can really see Swann's arm connecting with Greg's face. This knocks Greg down on the side of his torso, Greg's legs come up, and he kicks out at Swann. Then, when he's rolling back to sit up, Reid's arm comes down. It looked to me like Reid's hand was open, and his arm kind of swipes at Greg. His forearm slams into the side of Greg's neck and knocks him back to the floor. Greg ends up laying on his back, but holding his face where Swann connect, not his neck where Reid did.

It's hard to tell exactly what Reid's intent was here. From the above angle, it definitely looks like he's throwing a punch. From the cross-court angle, it's much more ambiguous, and from Greg's reaction afterwards, it looks like the contact from Swann was the more painful of the two.

I think calling the double technical is fair. You probably could have added Swann into the mix, as he went after the ball after it had been blown dead, and he made excessive contact. But given how shortly it was after the whistle, I'm not surprised it wasn't called.

Greg deserved the technical for kicking at Swann, and Reid deserved his for lashing at Greg, especially so long after the whistle had blown - as Jay Bilas pointed out, he should have backed away instead.

Given the ambiguity from the cross-court angle, I'd be surprised if Reid was suspended or otherwise penalized by the league after the fact.

I have watched the replay numerous times and while the above is accurate in what it describes, it is missing what I believe are important facts about Reid's action. He was 3 to 4 feet away from the pile and in no way a potential participant for the held ball, and therfore had to take two full steps over to deliver his punch/swipe or whatever you want to call it, and he made no attempt to reach for the ball. Whether Paulus was being obnoxious, "chippy" as someone wrote, or made contact with Reid's mask while stripping the ball, or whether Reid made contact with his hand or arm should be irrelevant. Reid's action was retaliatory and deliberate.

southgater
01-17-2008, 09:48 AM
I wasn't able to watch or tape the second half of the game. Does anybody know of a link to a video of the Reid play or can they post one for those of us who haven't seen it?
Thanks

bjornolf
01-17-2008, 09:51 AM
I wasn't able to watch or tape the second half of the game. Does anybody know of a link to a video of the Reid play or can they post one for those of us who haven't seen it?
Thanks

a Youtube video of it at the post game thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gzRtB09mzk

bjornolf
01-17-2008, 09:53 AM
at the 2:00 mark of the video is the more flagrant hit, in my mind. It's committed by Swann, who "swipes" at the ball with a closed fist that strangely goes PAST the ball to hit GP in the face.

And with Reid, he does connect, it's just with his wrist instead of his hand, and it is, admittedly, a fairly weak, glancing blow. The Swann shot is much harder and more direct.

Dukiedevil
01-17-2008, 09:58 AM
I think/thought Jay's anlaysis/announcing was excellent. I guess some people just listen to the broadcast looking for reasons to get angry.

Agree with you here Jumbo. I think there a LOT of questionable calls in this game (which Jay mentioned several times) and the common denominator in most of them was Teddy Valentine.

I'm not a huge Valentine fan as he seems to have a big ego and to draw attention to himself. What better way than to call a charge? Calling charges always gets a huge reaction (either positive or negative). The couple plays that Bilas mentioned were defintely blocking fouls in my opinion. Smith and King were jumping under guys after they left their feet in some cases and they were being called charges.


Teddy's games are always odd contests with lots of calls... I seem to remember him being involved in the Wake foul-fest a couple of years ago.

DukeDevil
01-17-2008, 10:08 AM
Everyone is really focused on the double T, but did people miss the play just before the scrum where, after the whistle, Ried grabs Paulus' wrist as he goes up for a shot and puts him on the ground? That seemed really blatant to me, and I'm surprised more people haven't commented on it.

BlueDevilJay
01-17-2008, 11:30 AM
I don't understand why Reid wasn't ejected from the game. Seriously, what am I missing?

Exactly!!! And why did we not shoot free throws from the technical??? Did anyone else notice that?

DukeDevil
01-17-2008, 11:32 AM
I think it's because it was a double tech. foul

gadzooks
01-17-2008, 11:59 AM
I could swear that I've seen games in the past where there was a double technical, and both teams shot free throws, which makes more sense to me, rather than neither. Can anybody clarify what the heck is up with that?

4decadedukie
01-17-2008, 12:11 PM
Well, for one thing, it wasn't all that great a punch. For another, it didn't actually catch Paulus in the head or face. And since Chris Paul only got suspended for one game for what was a much bigger offense (in my book), I highly doubt you'll see a suspension of at least two games for Reid's actions. I wouldn't be surprised if he's given no suspension.


I suspect you are right regarding no suspension.

However, I take grave exception to your logic concerning both "all that great a punch" and "actually catch Paulus in the head or face." For all Reid knew, that punch could have hit Paulus in the eye and blinded him; thatís the appropriate metric that should be applied by the ACC and FSU.

Baskethead
01-17-2008, 12:11 PM
I'm a newbie to the board but wanted to say a couple of things about last night. First off, the FSU fans are pieces of work... During the last game my family went to 2 years ago at the civic center, we were pelted by tomatoes (while Duke was losing even) and this game we had to endure the entire endzone and band chanting "F Paulus" Real class acts.. even the civic center worker next to us asked if they were really saying that.

We talked to one of the refs when they were leaving the game in the parking lot and he said that the double T was for "mouthing off" Take that for what its worth.

Greg

MChambers
01-17-2008, 12:29 PM
Maybe someone already mentioned this, but it's too hard reading about the punch to be sure.

Looking at the box score, it doesn't look like K shortened the bench as much last night. Eight players got double digit minutes (Lance only had 8, but he's had health issues, plus we were playing a very small team).

Demarcus played 36 minutes, Jon 32, and Gerald 31.

So shouldn't we all acknowledge this?

DangerDevil
01-17-2008, 12:35 PM
:) Jack Corcoran :http://www.tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080116/FSU05/801160387/0/NEWS01
Also, Isaiah Swann was quoted as stating Paulus held him and that allowed the steal.
The game chant you may have heard was "ACC Refs" !The locals think the ACC refs jobbed them last night,as they allegedly have in football.LOL.Tough,well-deserved win by the Devils.
Best regards.:D
http://www.tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080116/FSU05/801160388
More quality reporting from the Tallahasse Democrat, this time by Corey Clark:
"Paulus found himself in the middle of a skirmish late in the game when he corralled a loose ball on his back and wound up trying to kick Seminoles off of him.

Asked if he was bloodied up during the altercation he said: "Yeah a little bit. It was physical in there. I'm a small guy."

And it's Duke-FSU. That stuff is going to happen."

No mention of any of the face shots that Paulus took before or after the "kick".

CDu
01-17-2008, 12:36 PM
I suspect you are right regarding no suspension.

However, I take grave exception to your logic concerning both "all that great a punch" and "actually catch Paulus in the head or face." For all Reid knew, that punch could have hit Paulus in the eye and blinded him; thatís the appropriate metric that should be applied by the ACC and FSU.

My logic concerning "all that great a punch" was that it wasn't actually a punch. If you look at the replay, his hand was open as he swiped in. And I don't think it was all that blind an attempt. I think he could see what he was doing, as he was standing right over him.

Could he have caught Paulus in the eye? Sure. But by that metric, Henderson should have been suspended for multiple games then, right (as opposed to the one game he got)? His elbow could have hit Hansbrough in the eye and blinded him, too.

I hate being in the place of arguing against a Duke player and in favor of an opponent. But in this case, I think the response to Reid is overstated. It was over the line for sure. And that's why he got the technical. But it wasn't really a punch, and wasn't very forceful, and isn't nearly as egregious as some have made it out to be (in my opinion).

Tom B.
01-17-2008, 12:53 PM
My logic concerning "all that great a punch" was that it wasn't actually a punch. If you look at the replay, his hand was open as he swiped in. And I don't think it was all that blind an attempt. I think he could see what he was doing, as he was standing right over him.

Could he have caught Paulus in the eye? Sure. But by that metric, Henderson should have been suspended for multiple games then, right (as opposed to the one game he got)? His elbow could have hit Hansbrough in the eye and blinded him, too.

I hate being in the place of arguing against a Duke player and in favor of an opponent. But in this case, I think the response to Reid is overstated. It was over the line for sure. And that's why he got the technical. But it wasn't really a punch, and wasn't very forceful, and isn't nearly as egregious as some have made it out to be (in my opinion).

A point that shouldn't be lost is the fact that Reid's actions occurred well after the play had blown dead. This wasn't something that happened in the flow of the game action, like the Henderson/Hansbrough incident (Gerald was in mid-air when the whistle blew). Reid was completely out of the play when it was blown dead, but instead of just staying where he was, he got up, walked over to the scrum and sought out Paulus for the sole purpose of taking a punch/swipe/whatever at him. I can't imagine that the ACC would want to leave the impression that conduct like that will be tolerated.

And if I recall the Chris Paul/Julius Hodge incident (which has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread), Paul wasn't even whistled for a foul at the time -- the refs missed it completely. It was only after the ACC suits looked at the tape and saw what he did that the conference suspended him.

My $0.02 -- Reid should get a one-game sit-down.

CDu
01-17-2008, 12:57 PM
A point that shouldn't be lost is the fact that Reid's actions occurred well after the play had blown dead. This wasn't something that happened in the flow of the game action, like the Henderson/Hansbrough incident (Gerald was in mid-air when the whistle blew). Reid was completely out of the play when it was blown dead, but instead of just staying where he was, he got up, walked over to the scrum and sought out Paulus for the sole purpose of taking a punch/swipe/whatever at him. I can't imagine that the ACC would want to leave the impression that conduct like that will be tolerated.

And if I recall the Chris Paul/Julius Hodge incident (which has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread), Paul wasn't even whistled for a foul at the time -- the refs missed it completely. It was only after the ACC suits looked at the tape and saw what he did that the conference suspended him.

My $0.02 -- Reid should get a one-game sit-down.

I agree with your point about being well outside the realm of action. And a one-game suspension would be fine by me. I'd not be surprised by no suspension, either. A 2+ game suspension would be ridiculous in my book, based on past decisions of a similar sort. I just wanted to emphasize that the physicality of the swipe was being overstated a bit in my opinion.

Acymetric
01-17-2008, 01:00 PM
My logic concerning "all that great a punch" was that it wasn't actually a punch. If you look at the replay, his hand was open as he swiped in. And I don't think it was all that blind an attempt. I think he could see what he was doing, as he was standing right over him.

Could he have caught Paulus in the eye? Sure. But by that metric, Henderson should have been suspended for multiple games then, right (as opposed to the one game he got)? His elbow could have hit Hansbrough in the eye and blinded him, too.

I hate being in the place of arguing against a Duke player and in favor of an opponent. But in this case, I think the response to Reid is overstated. It was over the line for sure. And that's why he got the technical. But it wasn't really a punch, and wasn't very forceful, and isn't nearly as egregious as some have made it out to be (in my opinion).

I would agree with you...if he had been one of the people going for the ball!! That fact that he walked over after play had stopped means the only purpose of him walking to that pile was to help someone up or take a shot, and that I didn't see him help anyone.

People in a pile going for the ball will tend to scrap, and things like that can happen, and in that situation a T is sufficient. Unlike Henderson, who made the play in a live ball situation, this was dead ball, no reason for him to be near Paulus, much less touching him, regardless of how soft it was. (As a side note, I would actually blame the whole G thing on whoever grabbed Hans. I forget who it was, but if that happened, it would have been a sweet block or a hard foul, but nowhere near what it turned out to be).

ojaidave
01-17-2008, 01:05 PM
My logic concerning "all that great a punch" was that it wasn't actually a punch. If you look at the replay, his hand was open as he swiped in. And I don't think it was all that blind an attempt. I think he could see what he was doing, as he was standing right over him.

Could he have caught Paulus in the eye? Sure. But by that metric, Henderson should have been suspended for multiple games then, right (as opposed to the one game he got)? His elbow could have hit Hansbrough in the eye and blinded him, too.

I hate being in the place of arguing against a Duke player and in favor of an opponent. But in this case, I think the response to Reid is overstated. It was over the line for sure. And that's why he got the technical. But it wasn't really a punch, and wasn't very forceful, and isn't nearly as egregious as some have made it out to be (in my opinion).

I agree that his hand was open and it wasn't a "punch" per se. However Reid, who wasn't in the original pile up, joined the fray well after the whistle. Now he may have seen Paulus kicking and moved in to defend Swann. I can understand that, though the league has rules against it. The key issue is that he wasn't part of the play and moved in to take a swing at Paulus (or maybe just to pull him back forcefully). The catalyst for this whole event and one that was entirely lost on the announcing crew and on ESPN, is Swann's deliberate hit of Paulus in the face with his forearm. He wasn't going for the ball, it wasn't accidental. The reason it was missed, IMO, is that it was a very well executed hit. It took the cross court camera angle and an HD DVR for me to believe it. Swann is the one I think should be suspended.

As far as Paulus being chippy or "whiney" Paulus takes more abuse from opposing teams than anyone, and you don't see him whine to the refs. He may be talking smack, and I absolutely believe he does the little things to disrupt opponents, like stepping into the lane between free throws right in front of the shooter - but he is not a whiner. That kid is as mentally tough as anyone I've seen at Duke. He doesn't show boat, and when he hits big shots he immediately transitions to defense, calling out the defense to his team mates. He isn't chest thumping, raising his arms, or woofing. He had an awful game last night until the final minutes, just awful. His passing was just OK, he threw up a bunch of air balls and just had a poor performance all around. But rather than pack it in, he came through for Duke in the clutch.

Paulus is a winner, and Duke is far better off with him in the mix.

Dave

CDu
01-17-2008, 01:05 PM
I would agree with you...if he had been one of the people going for the ball!! That fact that he walked over after play had stopped means the only purpose of him walking to that pile was to help someone up or take a shot, and that I didn't see him help anyone.

People in a pile going for the ball will tend to scrap, and things like that can happen, and in that situation a T is sufficient. Unlike Henderson, who made the play in a live ball situation, this was dead ball, no reason for him to be near Paulus, much less touching him, regardless of how soft it was. (As a side note, I would actually blame the whole G thing on whoever grabbed Hans. I forget who it was, but if that happened, it would have been a sweet block or a hard foul, but nowhere near what it turned out to be).

Completely agree. See my post right before yours. I'd be fine with a one-game suspension for him or no suspension. 2+ games seems very excessive.

DangerDevil
01-17-2008, 01:09 PM
I agree with your point about being well outside the realm of action. And a one-game suspension would be fine by me. I'd not be surprised by no suspension, either. A 2+ game suspension would be ridiculous in my book, based on past decisions of a similar sort. I just wanted to emphasize that the physicality of the swipe was being overstated a bit in my opinion.

I think that Reidís actions, including taking several steps back towards the pile up after the whistle had clearly been blown, cocking his right arm and making a fist (even if he eventually opens his had prior to striking Paulus) and swinging at Gregís head are clearly a combative act/fighting with intent to harm.

The fact that the result wasnít as visibly damaging as an incident like Hansbroughís broken nose shouldnít cause Reidís actions to be understated.

3rd Dukie
01-17-2008, 01:42 PM
Bottom line -- as others have said -- is that last year's team doesn't win this game. Period. Say what you will about blowing the lead, about all the things that led to such a stressful last couple of minutes, but this team showed incredible grit and resolve to win anyway -- and on the road, no less. This wasn't the first time. Fact is, Duke blew the lead to Pitt and still came back in the final minute of regulation to send it to overtime. These guys are better, more mentally tough and more of a team than last year's group.

The Good
-Scheyer was fantastic. I'm waiting for the official boxscore to show up on goduke.com, because there's no way he only had two assists. I remember two right off the top of my head -- his baseline drive and no-look pass to Henderson and the first half and his kick-out to Singler for the three that put Duke back in front. He is listed with only two steals right now, but had two very early in the first half. ESPN.com box scores are frequently wrong at first, so I hope those numbers are low.

Regardless, he was awesome. I love that he broke out of his shooting slump. I love that he aggressively looked for his shot. I love that he attacked the basket. I just wish the team had put the ball in his hands in the second half more and let him make plays -- there were too many quick shots by other guys where he just didn't get to touch the ball on a given possession. And with any luck, this is a wakeup call that we need to get him out of the corner and get the ball in his hands on the wing -- he is much more effective that way.

-Singler's hustle is incredible. While it's largely responsible for his foul trouble, he routinely gets Duke extra possessions through nothing but pure effort. The guy couldn't be any tougher or more efficient -- he's everything McRoberts wasn't.

-Paulus responded from a truly awful first 37 minutes with a couple of great plays down the stretch. Make of it what you will, but he deserves credit for it.

The Bad
-When things got tighter in the second half, there were WAY too many instances of quick shots and guys trying to go one-on-one. That can't happen.

-Lance Thomas MUST be stronger with the ball. He brings it down too low, and his post moves need to show more patiences. He gets himself out of control and into trouble on his own.

The Ugly
-This team can't turn the ball over 20 times. Period. Duke has too many good guards. We played a small lineup most of the time with a 5 (Singler) who can handle and pass extremely well. There's no excuse -- no matter how much ball pressure we faced -- for so many miscues. I can live with missed shots. I can't live with so many turnovers, given the way Duke is playing this year. Duke needs to win the turnover differential and force extra possessions. It's that simple.

As tough as it was to watch at times, a road win in the ACC is always huge. Let's keep building.

Jumbo,
While I often disagree with many things you do and say, you are 100% spot on in your analysis of this game and this team. I particularly like your comment about Slinger's being everything McRoberts was not. Great point.

DukeDevil
01-17-2008, 02:17 PM
Jumbo,
While I often disagree with many things you do and say, you are 100% spot on in your analysis of this game and this team. I particularly like your comment about Slinger's being everything McRoberts was not. Great point.

While I disagree with what you say, sir, I shall fight to the death for your right to say it. Sorry, I know that's off topic but that quote popped into my head.

The whole scrum was just dirty all around, and Reid really just struck me as a bad guy on the court, from slamming paulus down by the wrist, to the scrum, to his attitude after the whole incident.

All in all, glad to see this team has the testicular fortitude to take a hit and push right back and gut it out. I feel like last years squad would just fold in this situation (in fact...they did)

devildeac
01-17-2008, 02:59 PM
I'm putting my money on nothing else happening. Yes, Paulus' flailing could have been interpreted as an attempt to "kick another opponent" and, viewed very liberally, Reid's arm movement could have been interpreted as an attempted punch but, as I said, it's gotta be pretty blatant* for the refs to call it a flagrant, much less the league dole out a suspension AFTER the game is already finished and no flagrants were given.

*ie, Chris Paul blatant.

Blatant as in Gerald Henderson blatant(called a flagrant foul, then labeled 'fighting' qualifying for an automatic suspension with NO appeal possible). Let's have the refs and the ACC office apply the same standards.

JBDuke
01-17-2008, 03:07 PM
I have watched the replay numerous times and while the above is accurate in what it describes, it is missing what I believe are important facts about Reid's action. He was 3 to 4 feet away from the pile and in no way a potential participant for the held ball, and therfore had to take two full steps over to deliver his punch/swipe or whatever you want to call it, and he made no attempt to reach for the ball. Whether Paulus was being obnoxious, "chippy" as someone wrote, or made contact with Reid's mask while stripping the ball, or whether Reid made contact with his hand or arm should be irrelevant. Reid's action was retaliatory and deliberate.

I agree with your additions - Reid was several feet away from Paulus and the group around him, and had to move in that direction after the whistle. He arrives about three seconds after the whistle and deliberately swings down at Greg - punch or not - and was not going for the ball.

CDu
01-17-2008, 03:33 PM
I agree with your additions - Reid was several feet away from Paulus and the group around him, and had to move in that direction after the whistle. He arrives about three seconds after the whistle and deliberately swings down at Greg - punch or not - and was not going for the ball.

I agree with all of these points. It was definitely deliberate. It was definitely late. It was definitely retalliatory. It was definitely unacceptable. But it was also not a punch, and not nearly as violent a swing as some people on this board have suggested. That's the only disagreement I've had on this matter.

NovaScotian
01-17-2008, 04:33 PM
just something to infuriate everyone a little

http://deadspin.com/345968/greg-paulus-flops-like-a-champion

tbyers11
01-17-2008, 04:48 PM
Yeah, I saw that.

Greg does flop and engage in chippy play a bit more than some, but Awful Announcing showed (and Deadspin linked to) 2 clips from last night where 1) he got fouled quite hard by Reid attempting to follow Demarcus' shot and 2) got hit twice (by Swann and then Reid) in the scrum at the end of the game.

Maybe it's my Duke Blue-tinted view, but those clips don't seem to prove their point very well.

uncwdevil
01-17-2008, 05:07 PM
That post hurt me. Deadspin is (was) one of my favorite sites on the net.

They showed they are just as bad as everyone else when it comes to blind Duke-hating.

Duvall
01-17-2008, 05:14 PM
That post hurt me. Deadspin is (was) one of my favorite sites on the net.

They showed they are just as bad as everyone else when it comes to blind Duke-hating.

Um, Deadspin has always been home to ample Duke-hating. This post is mild by their standards.

DevilCastDownfromDurham
01-17-2008, 06:02 PM
True, but that's sort of just Deadspin. They hate pretty much everyone (and had a few good anti-UNC jokes in the comments section of this article). Like Nation of Islam Sports Blog, you should either have a thick skin and a good sense of humor, or just not read it.

feldspar
01-17-2008, 07:14 PM
After last year's famous flop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0upQDkY-pg)by Greg, I can't say that he's really immune from criticism when it comes to flopping egregiously.

Acymetric
01-17-2008, 07:17 PM
After last year's famous flop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0upQDkY-pg)by Greg, I can't say that he's really immune from criticism when it comes to flopping egregiously.

I freely admit that I actually laughed just now watching that. I saw it last year, but its funnier way after the fact. Still love the guy though.

feldspar
01-17-2008, 07:30 PM
Still love the guy though.
Me too, lest anyone get the wrong impression.

yancem
01-17-2008, 07:31 PM
One other thing on the Reid thing - from the cross court angle I saw on the replay, when Reid's hand goes by Paulus's face it's open, not clenched in a fist. I agree that from the back it looks like a sucker punch, but from the other angle I wasn't so sure.

Anyone else see the cross court angle?

I saw the same thing but when the fist went into the pile it was definitely clinched. I have a hard time imagining throwing a punch at a guy and opening my fist in mid swing. I wonder if Ried missed completely and it was another FSU players hand that made contact. There were several hands in the vicinity of Paulus' face.

Fish80
01-17-2008, 08:05 PM
I saw the same thing but when the fist went into the pile it was definitely clinched. I have a hard time imagining throwing a punch at a guy and opening my fist in mid swing. I wonder if Ried missed completely and it was another FSU players hand that made contact. There were several hands in the vicinity of Paulus' face.

Under the rules, it doesn't matter whether the fist was clenched or the hand was opened. An attempt to strike a player is considered fighting. See post number 147 above, and the excerpt below regarding fighting.

"a. An attempt to strike an opponent with the arms, hands, legs or feet.
b. An attempt to punch or kick an opponent, regardless of whether
contact is made."

It's pretty clear that Reid attempted to strike Paulus. I'm not sure why there's all this debate about open or closed fist. The whole sequence was ugly. But as I stated earlier, if there is further disciplinary action, Paulus will probably be included.

CDu
01-17-2008, 08:08 PM
I saw the same thing but when the fist went into the pile it was definitely clinched. I have a hard time imagining throwing a punch at a guy and opening my fist in mid swing. I wonder if Ried missed completely and it was another FSU players hand that made contact. There were several hands in the vicinity of Paulus' face.

Reid absolutely has an unclinched hand when it nears Paulus' face. He did seem to have a clinched fist when he rared back. It appears that he must have changed his mind mid swing (perhaps he realized it was a really bad idea).

Reid's hand is the last one to come in. It either slightly misses Paulus' face or grazes his chin/neck. The blow that looked worse was an elbow by (I believe) Swann earlier (which resulted in the kick by Paulus). After that, Paulus really recoils and kicks at people. Then Reid swipes at him.

dukie8
01-17-2008, 08:08 PM
Under the rules, it doesn't matter whether the fist was clenched or the hand was opened. An attempt to strike a player is considered fighting. See post number 147 above, and the excerpt below regarding fighting.

"a. An attempt to strike an opponent with the arms, hands, legs or feet.
b. An attempt to punch or kick an opponent, regardless of whether
contact is made."

It's pretty clear that Reid attempted to strike Paulus. I'm not sure why there's all this debate about open or closed fist. The whole sequence was ugly. But as I stated earlier, if there is further disciplinary action, Paulus will probably be included.

under a strict interpretation of that definition, an intentional foul is "fighting" because the player strikes an opponent with his hands/arms.

CDu
01-17-2008, 08:09 PM
Under the rules, it doesn't matter whether the fist was clenched or the hand was opened. An attempt to strike a player is considered fighting. See post number 147 above, and the excerpt below regarding fighting.

"a. An attempt to strike an opponent with the arms, hands, legs or feet.
b. An attempt to punch or kick an opponent, regardless of whether
contact is made."

It's pretty clear that Reid attempted to strike Paulus. I'm not sure why there's all this debate about open or closed fist. The whole sequence was ugly. But as I stated earlier, if there is further disciplinary action, Paulus will probably be included.

It would appear to be that Reid would fall under rule A. Paulus definitely falls under rule B. If there is any punishment, I agree that both would be subject to punishment by that rulebook. However, I'm guessing the exact letter is not always followed.

Jim3k
01-17-2008, 11:39 PM
I would love to look at that video, but everyone doesn't have Tivo or DVR, so unless one of you is going to post it, I probably won't see it from a good angle, espn certainly won't bother.

I just reviewed it. I do think the league will have a problem with Reid. IMO, the reason Paulus was T'd was not because he kicked back but because he said something after being smacked. And he was smacked. Don't think it was a fist, but was face-jabbed with stiff fingers. Either way it was dirty. I don't blame Paulus for his verbal bitching or whatever he said, but I'm certain that was was the reason for the T. Deliciously, he got even with the FTS.