Have the innovations already been abandoned?

[Billy Dat]

Zoubek's injury had me thinking about zone which makes me wonder if we've already abandoned all the exciting new wrinkles K put in this year? Granted, we haven't played much in the last month, but over the past few games I haven't seen much evidence of:

-Suns offense
-Zone defense
-A legitimate deep rotation (playing someone 5 minutes or less doesn't count)

These were the innovations that had us looking so good in Maui. I'd like to see them come back.

[Duvall]

Zoubek's injury had me thinking about zone which makes me wonder if we've already abandoned all the exciting new wrinkles K put in this year? Granted, we haven't played much in the last month, but over the past few games I haven't seen much evidence of:

-Suns offense
-Zone defense
-A legitimate deep rotation (playing someone 5 minutes or less doesn't count)

These were the innovations that had us looking so good in Maui. I'd like to see them come back.

Well, based on the standards set in the discussions earlier this year, it's now impossible for Duke to have a legitimately deep rotation now that there are only nine healthy scholarship players.

[Bob Green]

Against Cornell, eight players played double-digit minutes with a ninth playing nine minutes. The deep rotation is still being utilized. With Zoubek out with an injury, we have one less player available, but the nine healthy players will play.

No reason to panic, IMO.

[tweeze]

I would play 9 deep with this rotation:


PG Paulus/Smith
SG Henderson/Scheyer
SF Nelson/King
PF Singler/McClure
C Thomas

With McClure coming into play for Thomas at the five along with King sometime.

[Jumbo]

-Suns offense

Duke is still running the 4-out offense it started the season with, a derivative of the Suns' system (minus the heavy reliance on a PG like Steve Nash). That hasn't changed. Duke hasn't been able to get out in transition as much, but that isn't a result of abandonning the "Suns-like" system.


-Zone defense

No one really expected Duke to use much zone. Plus, it hasn't been necessary lately -- the man-to-man has been quite good (especially against Pitt). I think K wanted to develop the zone as an option if needed. Problem is, it will only heighten Duke's rebounding troubles.


-A legitimate deep rotation (playing someone 5 minutes or less doesn't count)

I think five minutes should definitely count. And Duke definitely is still deep.

Since Maui, Duke has played seven games. Here's a look at the minutes in those contests
EKU -- Eight guys went at least 15 minutes, nine went at least 10 minutes, 10 at least five minutes.
Wisconsin -- Seven guys went at least 15 minutes, eight went at least 10 minutes, nine went at least five minutes.
Davidson -- Six went at least 15 minutes, seven went at least 10 minutes (Smith only went nine), eight went at least five minutes (and Zoubek played four). -- McClure was still hurt at this point.
Michigan -- Seven played at least 15 minutes. Nine played at least 10 minutes. 10 played at least five minutes.
Albany -- Nine went at least 15 minutes (actually, they all went at least 19 minutes). And Lance Thomas didn't dress.
Pittsburgh -- Five guys played at least 15 minutes (Thomas was at 14). Eight guys played at least 10 minutes. Ten guys played at least five minutes.
Cornell -- Six guys played at least 15 minutes (McClure was at 14). Eight played at least 10 minutes (Thomas played nine). Ten guys played at least five minutes.

Duke is still using its depth.

[Jumbo]

I would play 9 deep with this rotation:


PG Paulus/Smith
SG Henderson/Scheyer
SF Nelson/King
PF Singler/McClure
C Thomas

With McClure coming into play for Thomas at the five along with King sometime.


You are going to see a lot of the Paulus/Scheyer/Nelson/Henderson/Singler lineup, which is a good thing.

[mgtr]

You are going to see a lot of the Paulus/Scheyer/Nelson/Henderson/Singler lineup, which is a good thing.

Post of the day! I couldn't agree more. While it is small ball, it will be pretty good, in my view.

[tweeze]

How the hell are we gonna beat UNC now? While Zoubek hasn't been great he did do a great job defending Handsborough last year at Cameron, his size gave him a big problem. We will have to be lights out from the three point line and will have to out run them but Unc has the athletes too while we are deeper then them.

[Jumbo]

How the hell are we gonna beat UNC now? While Zoubek hasn't been great he did do a great job defending Handsborough last year at Cameron, his size gave him a big problem. We will have to be lights out from the three point line and will have to out run them but Unc has the athletes too while we are deeper then them.

Easy, fella. Zoubek was not going to get more than, say, 15 minutes against UNC or anyone else. Zoubek did an admirable job against Hansbrough last year in limited action. But so did McClure, among others. Hansbrough struggled against Dave's quickness and positioning. Besides, defense isn't about one-on-one matchups -- it's about team concepts. And whomever is guarding Hansbrough will have help. Instead of worrying about how Duke will defend him, try to picture him chasing Singler around the perimeter. If K is smart, that will happen a lot.

BTW, considering how scared you seem to be of him, his name is Hansbrough, not "Handsborough."

[greybeard]

Easy, fella. Zoubek was not going to get more than, say, 15 minutes against UNC or anyone else. Zoubek did an admirable job against Hansbrough last year in limited action. But so did McClure, among others. Hansbrough struggled against Dave's quickness and positioning. Besides, defense isn't about one-on-one matchups -- it's about team concepts. And whomever is guarding Hansbrough will have help. Instead of worrying about how Duke will defend him, try to picture him chasing Singler around the perimeter. If K is smart, that will happen a lot.

BTW, considering how scared you seem to be of him, his name is Hansbrough, not "Handsborough."

Good response. BTW, it's really not "Handsborough?" :o

[ArkieDukie]

Easy, fella. Zoubek was not going to get more than, say, 15 minutes against UNC or anyone else. Zoubek did an admirable job against Hansbrough last year in limited action. But so did McClure, among others. Hansbrough struggled against Dave's quickness and positioning. Besides, defense isn't about one-on-one matchups -- it's about team concepts. And whomever is guarding Hansbrough will have help. Instead of worrying about how Duke will defend him, try to picture him chasing Singler around the perimeter. If K is smart, that will happen a lot.

BTW, considering how scared you seem to be of him, his name is Hansbrough, not "Handsborough."

I was thinking the same thing. Make him play our game.

Oh, and I thought the name was Hansblahblah.

[elvis14]

I thought Zoubs did a pretty good job on Hansblahblah last season too and was looking forward to him doing more of the same this season. Hansblahblah does seem to have more issues with big guys (see Clemson game) than he does with quickness. He's just way too strong for the quick guys. So, although I still think we have a great shot at beating anyone including UNC, I am disappointed with the loss of Z.

As for the innovations, several times during the Cornell game the announcers noted that Duke had no one in the lane and was spreading the floor. Surely if those clueless blow hards can notice this so can Duke fans :D With Z out, I doubt we will see much zone defense. It seemed to me it was installed to maximize lineups with big Z in the middle. As for depth, I think we are playing a good rotation and thought it would have been more spread out for the Cornell game if King Taylor handn't played his way out of minutes!

[Lord Ash]

Wait, why is Tyler chasing Singler around the perimeter? Are we really going to put five guys on the perimeter? If so, that doesn't sound that hard to defend against; let four do the work, and keep Tyler down low to clean up misses. If you are saying we'll put other guys inside and let Kyle go outside, why would Tyler not just switch?

Overall Carolina will be a real handful; we would have to be lucky to win one of two at this point.

[Jumbo]

Wait, why is Tyler chasing Singler around the perimeter? Are we really going to put five guys on the perimeter? If so, that doesn't sound that hard to defend against; let four do the work, and keep Tyler down low to clean up misses. If you are saying we'll put other guys inside and let Kyle go outside, why would Tyler not just switch?

Overall Carolina will be a real handful; we would have to be lucky to win one of two at this point.

Duke's going to play a lot of PG-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Singler. Duke will also play King and Singler together. In either scenario, Hansbrough has to guard someone on the perimeter. And if Duke plays Thomas or McClure with Singler, Thompson still has to guard someone. So, either Hansbrough or Thompson will have to step out and defend away from the basket. The key will be for K to milk Singler on the perimeter, which he failed to do when Blair was guarding him in the Pitt game.

[jma4life]

Jumbo, I also love that lineup and in looking at your plus/minus, it seems to be an effective lineup, maybe the most effective lineup. But I worry about its success in long stretches. Will Singler be as effective offensively when he is banging with Hansbrough down low for long stretches. I know Hans will have to chase Kyle on the perimeter which should tire him but I feel that Singler will suffer more by fighting down low.

For 15 minutes a game though, and particularly late in games, I really like this lineup. All 5 guys can handle the rock, you have three to four good shooters from outside (only Henderson is not a potential three point threat) and there is no question these are our 5 best players. (I would also like this lineup with Smith in for Paulus)

[Exiled_Devil]

I think that we will see less zone - I have no hard data, but I got the impression that part of going zone was leaning on strengths of Marty and Zoubek. Marty always seemed to be in when we ran zone and I was under the impression that he had experience with it from growing up in Europe.

Of course, I have no inside information about this, but if we see less zone, I would not attribute it to giving up on the innovations. Just an unforatunate personnel change.

exiled

[weezie]

Against Cornell, eight players played double-digit minutes with a ninth playing nine minutes. The deep rotation is still being utilized. With Zoubek out with an injury, we have one less player available, but the nine healthy players will play.

No reason to panic, IMO.


Ugh, I'm scared! Definitely, panicked!!!

[3rd Dukie]

Post of the day! I couldn't agree more. While it is small ball, it will be pretty good, in my view.

Assuming Thomas is healthy, why would he not be among this five? It seems as though we could use his rebounding or even just his size.
How is LT viewed as a defensive player?
The problem is, before someone astutely points it out, whom do you sit?

I dunno.

[SilkyJ]

-Suns offense


you need your big guys to rebound and throw outlet passes for this offense to work. we can't seem to get rebounds inside enough.

(guards rebounding down low doesn't work that well b/c they can't see over the trees and make an outlet pass, so they usually end up trying to dribble up and bball 101 says you can pass the ball faster than you can dribble it...)

[Jumbo]

you need your big guys to rebound and throw outlet passes for this offense to work. we can't seem to get rebounds inside enough.

(guards rebounding down low doesn't work that well b/c they can't see over the trees and make an outlet pass, so they usually end up trying to dribble up and bball 101 says you can pass the ball faster than you can dribble it...)

You're talking about something entirely different -- a transition offense. When people generally refer to the "Suns offense" and its influence on Duke, it is seen more in terms of spacing in the halfcourt.

[devildeac]

Good response. BTW, it's really not "Handsborough?" :o

I thought it was 'Hanstravel';)

[CMS2478]

Ugh, I'm scared! Definitely, panicked!!!

I hope nobody takes this as a knock on Z, but why would we panick at losing Brian?? Yes, we lose some size and he helps........BUT you are talking about a guy who is not really an impact player.He will be more valuable the next two years and really this just hurts his development. If we lost Nelson, Paulus, Henderson....etc. then we should be panicking. :confused: