PDA

View Full Version : Zoubek breaks foot--again



jimsumner
01-08-2008, 01:12 PM
Duke press release


"Duke sophomore center Brian Zoubek will be sidelined indefinitely after suffering a fifth metatarsal fracture in his left foot on Monday. The injury is not expected to require surgery.

Zoubek suffered the same injury during a pickup game on July 9 and missed 10 weeks of action after undergoing surgery on July 11.

“This is a setback for Brian and for the team,” said Duke head coach Mike Krzyzewski. “He worked hard to recover from the injury over the summer and was beginning to solidify his role with the team. We have total confidence that Brian will recover from the injury and return as soon as he is physically able.”

The 7-1 Zoubek is averaging 4.3 points and 3.7 rebounds per game, while shooting a team-high 59.5 percent (22-of-37) from the field this season."

EarlJam
01-08-2008, 01:17 PM
Duke press release


"Duke sophomore center Brian Zoubek will be sidelined indefinitely after suffering a fifth metatarsal fracture in his left foot on Monday. The injury is not expected to require surgery.

Zoubek suffered the same injury during a pickup game on July 9 and missed 10 weeks of action after undergoing surgery on July 11.

“This is a setback for Brian and for the team,” said Duke head coach Mike Krzyzewski. “He worked hard to recover from the injury over the summer and was beginning to solidify his role with the team. We have total confidence that Brian will recover from the injury and return as soon as he is physically able.”

The 7-1 Zoubek is averaging 4.3 points and 3.7 rebounds per game, while shooting a team-high 59.5 percent (22-of-37) from the field this season."

Crangit! That's gonna hurt. Duke needs someone that can eat up some space down low, grab some rebounds and take some hacks at larger opposing teams. He seems kind of like a 2007-08 version of Clay Buckley.

Any 7'-plus walk-on candidates on the Duke campus?

-EarlJam

ThatDukeFan1
01-08-2008, 01:23 PM
this is definatly a bummer and a set back. i know zoubek isn't an impact player this year, but if he could stay healthy (which seems impossible for him) at least by time his junior/senior he could of been a force down low, or a solid rebounder.

he has GOT TO stay healthy, thats all their is too it. but for now, lets just worry about duke basketball, and be thankful it wasn't an impact player that this happened too.

pamtar
01-08-2008, 01:24 PM
Bummer.

Perhaps this will give Lance and David a chance to step up - something they are both very capable of doing.

tweeze
01-08-2008, 01:25 PM
I say start Dave b/c while he doesn't score many points he is the best defender and rebounder out of the possible candidates. He is undersized but we don't have anyone of the size needed anyway. Lance will get most of the time b/c he is the better athelet of the candidates. Bad part is that Lance and Dave are really SF not even PF and defenitely Cs.

Classof06
01-08-2008, 01:41 PM
As a Buckeye football fan, this week just keeps getting better and better...

Whether or not Lance Thomas can get it together just became even more important to the welfare of this basketball team.

Troublemaker
01-08-2008, 01:42 PM
Man, that's just unfortunate.

1. It sucks for Brian. I was holding out hope that a Jan/Feb version of Z would be an effective center for Duke for 10-15 min/gm, once he had completely re-integrated himself with the team and regained his conditioning following the previous foot break. He might've continued to struggle, or a light could've flipped on for him. I really wanted to find out and I'm sure he did, too.

2. Even if he's back on the court in 2 months or so, he'll have re-lost his conditioning and the team would have developed a rotation without him. I think when he returns, he'll vacillate between no playing time and 5 min/gm at the most.

3. Duke is now down to 9 scholarship players, which means when the team scrimmages, one side will always have a huge advantage because the other side is playing with a walk-on.

4. Coach K commented over the summer that Duke used to hardly ever have injuries, and now it seems like we can't stop having them. We've just had a lot of foot/ankle injuries over the past decade. I just wonder if there has been any change at Duke at all that might have precipitated this change in fortune. A change in the conditioning regiment, a new drill, some new equipment, anything that might've caused added stress to the foot. Maybe I've just been watching too much House, M.D. and I'm looking for a medical mystery, and I'd agree it's more likely that our change in fortune is just coincidental, but I do wonder.

ThatDukeFan1
01-08-2008, 01:43 PM
As a Buckeye football fan, this week just keeps getting better and better...

tough loss last night. but just being realistic, ohio state is good, but look at the CONFERENCE they play in...... compared to LSU they have 0 experience when it comes to tough games.

UrinalCake
01-08-2008, 01:50 PM
I think what we need to do is find a thug from the football team to provide some muscle. I don't mean anything dirty or intending to hurt the other team, I just mean we need to find a big ol' body to fill up the middle, keep other teams honest inside, and most importantly, give us some toughness. This person doesn't need to score, he just needs to intimidate the other team to the extent that they don't feel like they can push Duke around. Julius Peppers filled this role for Carolina a few years back. I suggest we do the same.

allenmurray
01-08-2008, 01:53 PM
Vince Oghabaase, six feet, six inches. 310 lbs.

EarlJam
01-08-2008, 01:56 PM
I think what we need to do is find a thug from the football team to provide some muscle. I don't mean anything dirty or intending to hurt the other team, I just mean we need to find a big ol' body to fill up the middle, keep other teams honest inside, and most importantly, give us some toughness. This person doesn't need to score, he just needs to intimidate the other team to the extent that they don't feel like they can push Duke around. Julius Peppers filled this role for Carolina a few years back. I suggest we do the same.

WELCOME TO THE BOARDS!................um, Urinal Cake?

-Earinal Jam

UrinalCake
01-08-2008, 01:58 PM
4. Coach K commented over the summer that Duke used to hardly ever have injuries, and now it seems like we can't stop having them. We've just had a lot of foot/ankle injuries over the past decade.

I think you're onto something. Elton had a foot injury his sophomore year (I think) and it was initially thought that he would be out the entire year. Boozer also missed significant time with a foot injury. And between Paulus last year, Marty last year and this year, and now Zoubek, that's a lot of foot/knee problems. I wonder if SI will start calling this the "Duke metatarsal curse"?

The good news is that in the case of both Elton and Boozer, their absense allowed other players to develop, and when they came back late in the year it provided a huge boost. Unfortunately, it's probably too late in the year for this to happen for Zoubek.

Jumbo
01-08-2008, 02:01 PM
2. Even if he's back on the court in 2 months or so, he'll have re-lost his conditioning and the team would have developed a rotation without him. I think when he returns, he'll vacillate between no playing time and 5 min/gm at the most.

I'm not a doctor. I don't know any specific info about Brian's break yet. I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn last night. But Duke has a pretty good track record in terms of quicker-than-expected foot recoveries. It's obviously a good sign that this doesn't need surgery. That would lead me to believe that the recovery time should automatically be shorter than the 10 weeks Zoubek needed this summer. But then when you look at some of the other recent foot injuries, and how quickly guys recovered, it's not unrealistic to believe Zoubek won't miss THAT much time (depending, again, on the severity of the fracture).

Jumbo
01-08-2008, 02:02 PM
I think what we need to do is find a thug from the football team to provide some muscle. I don't mean anything dirty or intending to hurt the other team, I just mean we need to find a big ol' body to fill up the middle, keep other teams honest inside, and most importantly, give us some toughness. This person doesn't need to score, he just needs to intimidate the other team to the extent that they don't feel like they can push Duke around. Julius Peppers filled this role for Carolina a few years back. I suggest we do the same.

Except Peppers, you know, actually had experience as a basketball player.

hondoheel
01-08-2008, 02:04 PM
Sorry to hear that for the guy. Was it the same bone in the same foot? If so, might the re-injury have been caused by coming back too soon?

MulletMan
01-08-2008, 02:04 PM
Its the Nikes.

Indoor66
01-08-2008, 02:05 PM
I think you're onto something. Elton had a foot injury his sophomore year (I think) and it was initially thought that he would be out the entire year. Boozer also missed significant time with a foot injury. And between Paulus last year, Marty last year and this year, and now Zoubek, that's a lot of foot/knee problems. I wonder if SI will start calling this the "Duke metatarsal curse"?

The good news is that in the case of both Elton and Boozer, their absense allowed other players to develop, and when they came back late in the year it provided a huge boost. Unfortunately, it's probably too late in the year for this to happen for Zoubek.

Grant Hill had a high ankle sprain during his career.

Billy Dat
01-08-2008, 02:07 PM
I don't know if Zoubek starting last game was more of a message to Lance then a reward to Zoubek but the fact is that we just lost a guy who started last game. At least with Zoubek we had a big guy who could make shorter dominant big men (e.g. PSYCHO T) step out a little bit. Our big men are now skinny 6'8"ers and the rotation drops to 9. TAYLOR KING, THIS IS YOUR WAKE UP CALL, GET READY TO REBOUND, WE'RE GONNA NEED YOU BIG GUY.

tbyers11
01-08-2008, 02:08 PM
Its the Nikes.

Didn't NC State have a rash of foot and ankle injuries about 10 years ago that a lot of people attributed to the Adidas shoes that they were wearing at the time?

EarlJam
01-08-2008, 02:12 PM
Except Peppers, you know, actually had experience as a basketball player.

Who was that hack the Virginia Tech Hoagies threw out there a few years ago? He was on the football team and hardly ever did anything right on the court - until they played Duke. Then he sort of went off on us.

Who was he?

-EarlJam

Jumbo
01-08-2008, 02:14 PM
Who was that hack the Virginia Tech Hoagies threw out there a few years ago? He was on the football team and hardly ever did anything right on the court - until they played Duke. Then he sort of went off on us.

Who was he?

-EarlJam

Jeff King.

sandinmyshoes
01-08-2008, 02:17 PM
It just seems like some kids get more than their fair share of injuries. :(

du_bb1
01-08-2008, 02:18 PM
V Tech player was jeff King---actually did a fairly good job w BB---with the panthers now

BlueDevilBaby
01-08-2008, 02:19 PM
Its the Nikes.

I agree with you and crap is right. Hope you have a quick recovery, Z. (By the way, I loved the Z cheer with the hands the other night during the Cornell game. I had not noticed it on TV during prior games.)

UrinalCake
01-08-2008, 02:21 PM
Jeff King... I remember that game. It's not an uncommon practice to use thugs. Temple did it a couple years ago, when John "I'm the only person uglier than Gene Keady" Chaney sent him in to break that guy's arm.

Duke's toughness was already being questioned even before Z's injury. I'm certain that all of our opponents are going to try to beat us around for the rest of the season.

I'd rather not have Taylor or Kyle playing center, I mean yes they are among our tallest players, but it's not their game. Is it worth it for either of them to expend all that energy on the defensive end at the expense of their offense? I'd rather have McClure and Thomas guarding the opposing team's center. Just my 2 cents.

dukejunkie
01-08-2008, 02:22 PM
If this is the same injury hopefully a coach or even a parent comes to their senses and shuts him down for the year. It seems Duke plays injured kids without publishing details and then we end up seeing them on the operating table after the season. Zoubek needs to get healthy and focus on next year. Duke needs to move on without him and figure out a solution.

Does anyone know if he would be eligible for a redshirt year? I think there was recently a rule change that might allow this. For a slow developer like himself, this might actually help both him and the team over the long term.

grossbus
01-08-2008, 02:22 PM
they don't want to come to Duke and break their feet.

:mad:

OZZIE4DUKE
01-08-2008, 02:23 PM
(By the way, I loved the Z cheer with the hands the other night during the Cornell game. I had not noticed it on TV during prior games.)

The Crazies have been doing it since early last season. Of course, Z has to be in the game for it to be done (other than during warm ups which aren't on television).

greybeard
01-08-2008, 02:28 PM
Zoubek was playing with a specially casted plastic base in his shoe. He might have been "healed" as far as Xrays go, but he was far from healed. Did he look like he was comfortable on his feet to any of you? Don't tell me, "the guy's gawky anyway."

No way he was healed from having broken a bone in his foot through and through in three places, one near the joint mid foot, which does not move as much as say an elbow, but does move.

Zoub needs to spend some time with his body, learning how his hips work and how they can work better, learning how the alignment of his feet are affected by his hips, his pelvis, his toes, etc, and learning how those parts and others can work in better sync. Heck, we all need to be learning about that. Movement is an essential part of life; why anyone would take it for granted, or work on body parts in isolation based upon other's directions with no greater understanding for themselves is understandable given our cultural paradigm--go to an expert and they will make it "better."

It is, however, silliness if you bother to think about it. You can begin doing it now and grow in the process, or wait for the pain. Nature knows no ohter options.

Having blown out my knee, only to come back and get my "chance" in a Xmass scrimmage against a really good club with a future Net playing for them, only to tear the ligaments in my ankle after five minutes into my run, then to get a second "chance" the next year as a freshman in college, only to blow out my other knee, my heart goes out to Zoubek, it really, really does. And, I never really could play to begin with, much less for one of the best college programs ever.

365Duke
01-08-2008, 02:30 PM
I cannot wear Nike myself. Of course the shoes that the teams wear are probably not the ones off the shelf. That said this is crazy. How many 5th mets have we had break in the last 10 years. Its like we have the market cornered 10:1:mad:



Oh and get well soon big fellow, we will need you down the road...

Bob Green
01-08-2008, 02:30 PM
This is really disappointing news. I've been very vocal on the boards that Zoubek would continue to improve with every game and be a solid post player by tournament time. Obviously, that isn't going to happen now. Zoubek needs to get healthy and focus on next season.

formerdukeathlete
01-08-2008, 02:39 PM
I'm not a doctor. I don't know any specific info about Brian's break yet. I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn last night. But Duke has a pretty good track record in terms of quicker-than-expected foot recoveries. It's obviously a good sign that this doesn't need surgery. That would lead me to believe that the recovery time should automatically be shorter than the 10 weeks Zoubek needed this summer. But then when you look at some of the other recent foot injuries, and how quickly guys recovered, it's not unrealistic to believe Zoubek won't miss THAT much time (depending, again, on the severity of the fracture).


hopefully this is a hairline fracture, which would re-bond within a few weeks.

Jumbo
01-08-2008, 02:41 PM
If this is the same injury hopefully a coach or even a parent comes to their senses and shuts him down for the year. It seems Duke plays injured kids without publishing details and then we end up seeing them on the operating table after the season. Zoubek needs to get healthy and focus on next year. Duke needs to move on without him and figure out a solution.

Does anyone know if he would be eligible for a redshirt year? I think there was recently a rule change that might allow this. For a slow developer like himself, this might actually help both him and the team over the long term.

That's not fair. Zoubek's injury occurred in July. He had more than enough time to recover.
Zoubek is not ellgible for a redshirt this season -- he played too many games.

MChambers
01-08-2008, 02:42 PM
a few years ago, Ewing had some sort of x-ray or something that suggested that he was vulnerable to having a metatarsal break. He ended up wearing some sort of insert for the first half of the season, and was able to remove it for the second half.
There was also some sort of story back then about someone at Duke Medical Center making breakthroughs in identifying athletes that were close to having foot injuries. http://www.ajronline.org/cgi/content/full/186/1/255
Lot of good this does us now!

3rd Dukie
01-08-2008, 03:03 PM
Zoubek was playing with a specially casted plastic base in his shoe. He might have been "healed" as far as Xrays go, but he was far from healed. Did he look like he was comfortable on his feet to any of you? Don't tell me, "the guy's gawky anyway."

No way he was healed from having broken a bone in his foot through and through in three places, one near the joint mid foot, which does not move as much as say an elbow, but does move.

Zoub needs to spend some time with his body, learning how his hips work and how they can work better, learning how the alignment of his feet are affected by his hips, his pelvis, his toes, etc, and learning how those parts and others can work in better sync. Heck, we all need to be learning about that. Movement is an essential part of life; why anyone would take it for granted, or work on body parts in isolation based upon other's directions with no greater understanding for themselves is understandable given our cultural paradigm--go to an expert and they will make it "better."

It is, however, silliness if you bother to think about it. You can begin doing it now and grow in the process, or wait for the pain. Nature knows no ohter options.

Having blown out my knee, only to come back and get my "chance" in a Xmass scrimmage against a really good club with a future Net playing for them, only to tear the ligaments in my ankle after five minutes into my run, then to get a second "chance" the next year as a freshman in college, only to blow out my other knee, my heart goes out to Zoubek, it really, really does. And, I never really could play to begin with, much less for one of the best college programs ever.

Hey Grey,

Did you see this coming last week with your post, or what?
Man, you are good!

Seriously though, what a horrible deal for Z.

mgtr
01-08-2008, 03:06 PM
This is a real shame, because he was making contributions. Fortunately McClure is back, and seems to be the same old Dave. Not tall, but he can rebound and defend. And somebody suggested that Taylor King had to step into that job as well. I agree completely.
I don't recall the details, but Bill Walton had a ton of foot problems in the pros. I remember reading that his feet were just not designed for the kind of beating basketball gives them.

Oriole Way
01-08-2008, 03:22 PM
I think you're onto something. Elton had a foot injury his sophomore year (I think) and it was initially thought that he would be out the entire year. Boozer also missed significant time with a foot injury. And between Paulus last year, Marty last year and this year, and now Zoubek, that's a lot of foot/knee problems. I wonder if SI will start calling this the "Duke metatarsal curse"?

The good news is that in the case of both Elton and Boozer, their absense allowed other players to develop, and when they came back late in the year it provided a huge boost. Unfortunately, it's probably too late in the year for this to happen for Zoubek.

Carlos Boozer had the same injury, I think, very late in ACC play (second to last game of the ACC schedule against Maryland) in 2001 and was back for the Elite Eight. He had an astonishingly quick recovery, so perhaps something similar is possible with Zoubek. Obviously different people heal differently, and the break might be different, but who knows.

Having access to Duke's medical facilities certainly doesn't hurt.

2002grad
01-08-2008, 03:31 PM
IMO, this will not hurt the team this year. In a close, important game, I don't think K would have played Zoubek more than 3 minutes. Therefore, maybe its better to get the other guys more playing time and practice defending true centers so that they will be used to it when it counts. Plus, Zoubs looked out of place with the more up-tempo style this year.

This hurts in practice and for Zoubek's long-term development, but I don't think it changes the potential for success this year.

dukelifer
01-08-2008, 03:34 PM
Clearly losing a big man is not good for this Duke team and even the few minutes that Zoubs would be giving in ACC play- will be missed dearly. Duke will not be able to be as aggressive on D to protect players from fouling out and that will hurt a lot. Singler will have a bit of a learning curve in ACC play- getting used to the size of the opposition and the more physical play. Practices will also be affected. You have to wonder if Duke will play more zone or make some other adjustment to deal with this. But definitely not a good development no matter how you cut it.

Billy Dat
01-08-2008, 03:43 PM
Obviously, Boozer's injury in 2001 was the catalyst for our title run. Leaving that one on it's rightful lofty perch, let me harken back a few years earlier to the precocious Elton Brand making a dramatic return to lead Duke back from a double digit second half abyss at home to thwart the mighty Heels squad of Jameson, Carter, Cota, et al. That was an incredibly sweet win.

Highlander
01-08-2008, 03:52 PM
Dern. That certainly puts a damper on things. It is doubly unfortuante b/c we just made a change last game to shake up the lineup and give Brian the start. I'm hoping he's back by early March.

I saw this (http://www.charlotte.com/hoops/story/436497.html) article today. Injuries are hitting a bunch of ACC teams hard. Not counting Zoub's injury:

-Clemson's Mays broke his non-shooting hand this week.

-UNC's Frazor is out for the year with a torn ACL.
-UNC's Stephenson expected back after taking time off to be w/ his family (ok, not an injury)
-UNC's Quentin Thomas's ankle not yet 100%

-FSU Freshman center Solomon Alabi has had surgery to repair a stress fracture in his right leg that could end his season.
-FSU Freshman forward Julian Vaughn is going to the Cleveland Clinic this week for medical tests because of unspecified symptoms.
- A third FSU player was suspended in November.

tweeze
01-08-2008, 03:59 PM
How bout we get this guy: http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22667&SPID=1843&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1097610&Q_SEASON=2007

he is 6'7 and 305 and played HS B-Ball and seems like a good athlete and he goes to Duke. Just send him in for some boards and fouls, basically the role of Zoubek.

Clipsfan
01-08-2008, 04:13 PM
How bout we get this guy: http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22667&SPID=1843&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1097610&Q_SEASON=2007

he is 6'7 and 305 and played HS B-Ball and seems like a good athlete and he goes to Duke. Just send him in for some boards and fouls, basically the role of Zoubek.

I could be wrong, but I would think that the offensive line is typically not the best place to find a basketball player. Although they can be quite athletic, I've always gotten the impression that their role is to not move, rather than run up and down a court.

Best wishes to Z for a quick recovery.

tweeze
01-08-2008, 04:20 PM
O-Linemen tend to have very quick feet and have to move fast and I bet he would be good at getting inside position and boxing out.

Jumbo
01-08-2008, 04:22 PM
O-Linemen tend to have very quick feet and have to move fast and I bet he would be good at getting inside position and boxing out.

OK, Duke has nine scholarship players, including several taller than said offensive lineman. No one's going to raid the football team for a body, nor is there a need to. So why are we talking about it?

Clipsfan
01-08-2008, 04:23 PM
O-Linemen tend to have very quick feet and have to move fast and I bet he would be good at getting inside position and boxing out.

Perhaps, but I was thinking about the wind to run up and down the court. That's a lot of weight o-linemen carry, and not all of it is muscle.

greybeard
01-08-2008, 04:44 PM
Dern. That certainly puts a damper on things. It is doubly unfortuante b/c we just made a change last game to shake up the lineup and give Brian the start. I'm hoping he's back by early March.

I saw this (http://www.charlotte.com/hoops/story/436497.html) article today. Injuries are hitting a bunch of ACC teams hard. Not counting Zoub's injury:

-Clemson's Mays broke his non-shooting hand this week.

-UNC's Frazor is out for the year with a torn ACL.
-UNC's Stephenson expected back after taking time off to be w/ his family (ok, not an injury)
-UNC's Quentin Thomas's ankle not yet 100%

-FSU Freshman center Solomon Alabi has had surgery to repair a stress fracture in his right leg that could end his season.
-FSU Freshman forward Julian Vaughn is going to the Cleveland Clinic this week for medical tests because of unspecified symptoms.
- A third FSU player was suspended in November.

Injuries in all sports in the US from high school on up (probably before) are at ridiculously high levels. Added training, pliometrics, whatever, are a MAJOR contributor, as is high tech equipment, overcoaching so everybody does it like Barry (Saunders), and a general disregard by those who run sports for the well being of those who play them.

The people in charge of American sports as a collectivity must step up and look. They need to really see the carnage that takes place in the games that they are responsible for staging. That they don't is bad enough. But, when I hear these same guys go on the TV and say something like, "We said a prayer for him, and know that the Lord . . . ," well, then, I really, really get angry.

In the words of Bob Zimmerman:

Disillusioned words like bullets bark
As human gods aim for their marks
Make everything from toy guns that spark
To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
It's easy to see without looking too far
That not much
Is really sacred.

No one coach can make a difference. I've thought about this a lot (you think), and am convinced of that.

This is a grass roots issue; it begins at the dinner table, goes to the coaches' meetings in kids' leagues before the season starts, goes to the referees who too easily pass on dangerous play without metting out steep penalties to kids and coaches because the kid's were just "playing hard", whatever the hell that means, and extends most importantly to letting our kids "come back too soon.

And, oh, one other thing, that clapping when a player gets carted off with an injury; it really has to stop. You want to do something as a group? Be silent.

Sit for a moment with reverence for the loss of innocence that every single injury that ever happens on the field of play brings, no matter how old the player or how many injuries he or she might have endured before. If you've been there, you know exactly what I'm talking about, whether you thought about it in those terms or not.

Silence, maybe those of us who help run the sports our children play will at long last be able to hear that. Peace.

Devilsfan
01-08-2008, 05:24 PM
But I don't think it's a major loss for the team because when it really matters K wasn't going to call #55. Lance needs to step up and show why he was recruited so highly.

jimsumner
01-08-2008, 05:26 PM
Everytime Duke needs a big man, somebody comes up with the idea of raiding the offensive line. I think people seriously underestimate how difficult it is to take up basketball at the ACC level after not having played since high school 2, 3, 4 years ago and also seriously overestimate how attractive sitting on the bench is hoops is compared to preparing for the sport that is actually paying your way through school.

Sure Reggie Love made some contributions. But how valuable was D Bryant in 1999? And he was a freshman and a stud hoopster in high school.

Remember Dave Colonna? All-ACC tight end for Spurrier, 6'6", 245, strong, mobile, athletic. Joined the '87 team after Phil Henderson became academically ineligible. Played two minutes. Not averaged two minutes. Played two minutes the entire season.

That's about what we could expect from a football player.

devildeac
01-08-2008, 05:36 PM
Vince Oghabaase, six feet, six inches. 310 lbs.

I thought VO had 'slimmed' down to about 295 to improve his speed/explosiveness;)

monkey
01-08-2008, 05:40 PM
I think you're onto something. Elton had a foot injury his sophomore year (I think) and it was initially thought that he would be out the entire year. Boozer also missed significant time with a foot injury. And between Paulus last year, Marty last year and this year, and now Zoubek, that's a lot of foot/knee problems. I wonder if SI will start calling this the "Duke metatarsal curse"?

The good news is that in the case of both Elton and Boozer, their absense allowed other players to develop, and when they came back late in the year it provided a huge boost. Unfortunately, it's probably too late in the year for this to happen for Zoubek.

First one of these I remember was Brand. Any chance this is all related to the floor change in Cameron (if I recall occcurred after the 96-97 season)?

Devil in the Blue Dress
01-08-2008, 05:42 PM
I thought VO had 'slimmed' down to about 295 to improve his speed/explosiveness;)

As long as Vince can "play the piano" or sack quarterbacks, he's at a good weight. Does he have any brothers or cousins?

devildeac
01-08-2008, 05:44 PM
Everytime Duke needs a big man, somebody comes up with the idea of raiding the offensive line. I think people seriously underestimate how difficult it is to take up basketball at the ACC level after not having played since high school 2, 3, 4 years ago and also seriously overestimate how attractive sitting on the bench is hoops is compared to preparing for the sport that is actually paying your way through school.

Sure Reggie Love made some contributions. But how valuable was D Bryant in 1999? And he was a freshman and a stud hoopster in high school.

Remember Dave Colonna? All-ACC tight end for Spurrier, 6'6", 245, strong, mobile, athletic. Joined the '87 team after Phil Henderson became academically ineligible. Played two minutes. Not averaged two minutes. Played two minutes the entire season.

That's about what we could expect from a football player.

Does Reggie have any eligibility left?(I know the answer, just looking for a ray of sunshine here):( Heal quickly , big guy!

Lavabe
01-08-2008, 05:44 PM
I thought VO had 'slimmed' down to about 295 to improve his speed/explosiveness;)

Darn! I REALLY wanted to hear Dan Bonner try to pronounce VO!!

Is there any hope for Tauiliili?

While we're at it, perhaps we could get someone from the soccer team to hit field goals (or in this case, free throws).;)

Cheers,
Lavabe

greybeard
01-08-2008, 06:07 PM
Darn! I REALLY wanted to hear Dan Bonner try to pronounce VO!!

Is there any hope for Tauiliili?

While we're at it, perhaps we could get someone from the soccer team to hit field goals (or in this case, free throws).;)

Cheers,
Lavabe

Actually, if Zoub had cross trained by playing soccer, his balance and weight distribution on his feet would ahve been much better and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Say, did I ever tell you guys about my theories about soccer and . . . . ;)

dukie8
01-08-2008, 06:07 PM
Everytime Duke needs a big man, somebody comes up with the idea of raiding the offensive line. I think people seriously underestimate how difficult it is to take up basketball at the ACC level after not having played since high school 2, 3, 4 years ago and also seriously overestimate how attractive sitting on the bench is hoops is compared to preparing for the sport that is actually paying your way through school.

Sure Reggie Love made some contributions. But how valuable was D Bryant in 1999? And he was a freshman and a stud hoopster in high school.

Remember Dave Colonna? All-ACC tight end for Spurrier, 6'6", 245, strong, mobile, athletic. Joined the '87 team after Phil Henderson became academically ineligible. Played two minutes. Not averaged two minutes. Played two minutes the entire season.

That's about what we could expect from a football player.

then maybe we should look at the soccer team. stan brunson and jay heaps played more than 2 minutes each when k needed their services.

dukie8
01-08-2008, 06:08 PM
Actually, if Zoub had cross trained by playing soccer, his balance and weight distribution on his feet would ahve been much better and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Say, did I ever tell you guys about my theories about soccer and . . . . ;)

like, say, akeem?

monkey
01-08-2008, 06:13 PM
then maybe we should look at the soccer team. stan brunson and jay heaps played more than 2 minutes each when k needed their services.

All honor to the great Jay Heaps. What year was that comeback by the bench players versus UNC that fell short at Cameron? 1996?

MChambers
01-08-2008, 06:15 PM
If you do, you're really old. He probably should have been mentioned in the Tate Armstrong thread, because he was pressed into service in 1977.
Maybe he's got eligibility. About 6'6", but not really an inside player.

j.j. jones
01-08-2008, 06:18 PM
IMO, this will not hurt the team this year. In a close, important game, I don't think K would have played Zoubek more than 3 minutes.

Exactly. Zoubs was not going to get quality PT this season. (No more than 8 to 10 mpg.) Some say he should have redshirted. But it's too late for that now.

I usually avoid making predictions during the preseason due to situations like this. Inevitably, there will an injury or two (and/or mono) which will significantly effect the team and the season. Okay, now we know who bit the injury bug. Let us just hope against hope that Brian is the only one. We had a deeeeeep bench entering the season, but now... we're at the point where one more setback (as it relates to health) will severely cripple the team.

I agree with others, it's time for Lance to step it up big time. I have faith that he can and will rise to the occasion. And if for some reason he can't, I also have faith that our "small ball" style can git er dun.

It's a bummer, but it happens to loads of teams. How you deal with adversity is the sign of a true champion.

jimsumner
01-08-2008, 06:20 PM
Brunson played 7 minutes in 1994. He sat out 1995 after surgery and played 191 minutes in 1996.

Heaps played 16 minutes in 1996, 21 minutes in 1997, 22 minutes in 1998, and 10 minutes in 1999.

Brunson did get some significant PT in 1996 after injuries to Langdon, Wallace, Collins, Wojo, and Christensen had depleted Duke's bench. Duke lost its ACC Tournament and NCAA Tournament openers with this lineup.

So neither Brunson nor Heaps gave Duke significant minutes in their first season as basketball walk-ons and Brunson as a fifth-year senior only after beaucoups of injuries. I respect the contributions both made but neither provides an especially promising scenario.

ArkieDukie
01-08-2008, 06:30 PM
Didn't Bobby Hurley break his foot in the 1991-92 season? I remember because McCaffrey had transferred to Vandy in order to get more time playing point guard. Grant Hill played point while Hurley was out.

RelativeWays
01-08-2008, 07:24 PM
Crap. We still have the players to do well but I hope this doesn't hurt our depth too much. I guess this will force K to play King and Thomas a little more unlike Sunday. WE SHALL PREVAIL! BELIEVE!

DukeDevilDeb
01-08-2008, 07:25 PM
Amen...! One of the sweetest wins of all time.

Go Devils! Brian, we're thinking of you...

jipops
01-08-2008, 07:27 PM
But I don't think it's a major loss for the team because when it really matters K wasn't going to call #55. Lance needs to step up and show why he was recruited so highly.

I disagree, this is a huge loss. Z was really starting to come around a bit as a defender as he began to effectively disrupt activity underneath. He even started getting a few blocks and boards in traffic. I would have bet that K had plans to use Z quite extensively against some of the bigger ACC teams in key spot situations. Though he'll most likely be back before the season ends, he could be very well out of the fray at that point. Brian could simply not afford to miss any court time.

dukie8
01-08-2008, 08:04 PM
Brunson played 7 minutes in 1994. He sat out 1995 after surgery and played 191 minutes in 1996.

Heaps played 16 minutes in 1996, 21 minutes in 1997, 22 minutes in 1998, and 10 minutes in 1999.

Brunson did get some significant PT in 1996 after injuries to Langdon, Wallace, Collins, Wojo, and Christensen had depleted Duke's bench. Duke lost its ACC Tournament and NCAA Tournament openers with this lineup.

So neither Brunson nor Heaps gave Duke significant minutes in their first season as basketball walk-ons and Brunson as a fifth-year senior only after beaucoups of injuries. I respect the contributions both made but neither provides an especially promising scenario.

stan actually averaged 9.1 minutes per game in the 21 games he played in 1996, which isn't that far off zoubek's 11.7/game this year. however, this year's team is much deeper and better than the 1996 team so, even if a clone of stan appeared on campus, i highly doubt that he would cut into any of the scholarship players' minutes.

Bob Green
01-08-2008, 08:22 PM
Through 12 games, Zoubek was averaging 11.7 minutes per game. Who sees more PT as a result of the injury? Lance Thomas? Dave McClure? Taylor KIng? Or do all three share the minutes?

Jumbo
01-08-2008, 08:50 PM
Through 12 games, Zoubek was averaging 11.7 minutes per game. Who sees more PT as a result of the injury? Lance Thomas? Dave McClure? Taylor KIng? Or do all three share the minutes?

Don't forget the perimeter players, if Duke goes small more often.

speedevil
01-08-2008, 09:11 PM
it's time to step up your game, all you have to do is play strong defensive positioning, boxout and rebound, set solid screens, and your offense will come with some patience, hustle and making the most of your opportunities.
lets go lance, lets go lance.

UrinalCake
01-08-2008, 09:29 PM
How bout we get this guy: http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22667&SPID=1843&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1097610&Q_SEASON=2007

I'd say we Needham pretty badly.

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all night.

mgtr
01-08-2008, 09:34 PM
While I am sad for Zoubs, since he was coming along and contributing, I think that McClure will be the biggest gainer in minutes. We will get our first indication tomorrow night.

jimsumner
01-08-2008, 09:40 PM
"stan actually averaged 9.1 minutes per game in the 21 games he played in 1996, which isn't that far off zoubek's 11.7/game this year."

The point regarding Brunson that I evidently haven't made is that in the one season that he did make some contributions, he did not do so after joining the team in the middle of the season. He was only able to make these contributions, as we have noted, after a lot of injuries and after several seasons of practicing with the team, learning the system, and all that.

That's not likely with anyone joining the team in mid-season.

Saratoga2
01-08-2008, 09:41 PM
I disagree, this is a huge loss. Z was really starting to come around a bit as a defender as he began to effectively disrupt activity underneath. He even started getting a few blocks and boards in traffic. I would have bet that K had plans to use Z quite extensively against some of the bigger ACC teams in key spot situations. Though he'll most likely be back before the season ends, he could be very well out of the fray at that point. Brian could simply not afford to miss any court time.

I thought he was a real assest against Cornell and would also be against any team that has real size inside. Not having him eliminates that matchup option. Another year for him not to develop as he should. I think it is sad for the team and for Brian as well.

tweeze
01-08-2008, 10:12 PM
The safe choice is McClure b/c you know what you will get out of him touch scrappy play and good rebouding but the logic is probably thomas b/c before he got hurt he was the starter and he has the talent to be a real good player, he needs to use that athletisms and be used in fast breaks to finish and grab some boards and play good defense, I think he could do some big things.

gep
01-08-2008, 10:14 PM
OK, Duke has nine scholarship players, including several taller than said offensive lineman. No one's going to raid the football team for a body, nor is there a need to. So why are we talking about it?

I had to say this... "because it's fun?" ... "for us fans"? even if it doesn't make any sense? :D

heyman25
01-08-2008, 10:47 PM
we will survive. It forces the whole team to grow up. Listen to your coach and execute.Thomas can not rebound for whatever reason so far. This weak performance has to end.Taylor no more passes that aren't there.To shoot so badly on your home court has to end. I bet we will show a new team effort tomorrow night.

hondoheel
01-08-2008, 10:50 PM
Don't forget the perimeter players, if Duke goes small more often.

Maybe Henderson could see a few minutes at the 4, a la Danny Green. I can't see Nelson or Scheyer there though.

Jumbo
01-08-2008, 11:59 PM
Maybe Henderson could see a few minutes at the 4, a la Danny Green. I can't see Nelson or Scheyer there though.

Duke has been doing that all year. Paulus/Scheyer/Nelson/Henderson/Singler has been used more frequently than all but one lineup (Paulus/Nelson/Henderson/Singler/Thomas). More importantly, it has been used to finish close games against good teams (Marquette, Davidson, Pitt, etc.).

johnb
01-09-2008, 12:26 AM
I agree that it's a major loss. I'm also doubtful that he will recover immediately; our previous fracture recoveries were made by freaky athletes who healed freakily fast. Bone repair and athleticism may not be clearly linked, but it is not inevitable that Zoubs'll be back on the court anytime soon, and that's a drag.

accfanfrom1970
01-09-2008, 01:02 AM
Does anyone know why Steve Johnson doesn't play at all? I mean not even in the blowouts or end of game situations....

Bob Green
01-09-2008, 02:45 AM
Through 12 games, Zoubek was averaging 11.7 minutes per game. Who sees more PT as a result of the injury? Lance Thomas? Dave McClure? Taylor KIng? Or do all three share the minutes?


Don't forget the perimeter players, if Duke goes small more often.

I might be guilty of overlooking the obvious with my post. The small lineup has been very effective so Zoubek's minutes could easily equate to more minutes for Nolan Smith off the bench. Today's game against Temple will be a litmus test of sorts seeing as Temple starts a 7'0" Center and 6'9" Forward. If we can succeed with the small lineup, it might be a glimpse into the rotation strategy for our upcoming ACC games.

I'm convinced all nine scholarship players will see significant minutes as long as they stay healthy. The question, in my mind, is which reserves play 15-18 minutes per game vs. which reserves play 8-10 minutes per game.

Uncle Drew
01-09-2008, 08:19 AM
First one of these I remember was Brand. Any chance this is all related to the floor change in Cameron (if I recall occurred after the 96-97 season)?

I was think this VERY same thing at work last night!!!!!!!! Call me crazy, you all know I'm crazy any freakin' way. But the number of foot injuries to Duke basketball players over the years ESPECIALLY since they replaced the floor HAS to be unusually high. (I'm looking at a piece of the old floor on my wall right now!)

So many of these injuries happened in practice and I'm assuming they still practice IN CIS. Boozer hurt his foot in a game against MD, I can't remember if he landed on someones foot or exactly what happened. (I'll let the fact finding researchers name off all the foot and ankle related injuries and where they happened!) But I'm telling you people from years of playing on all kinds of floors there may be something about this floor that contributes to foot and ankle injuries. Anyone who's ever played on a floor with concrete underneath (regardless of top surface) knows the jarring each time you land feels much different when playing and makes you feel sore the next day. (Back and feet especially.)

Yes logic says Duke would have the highest quality / safest floor available. But we all know a rim in one arena isn't quite the same as a rim in another arena. (Soft rims hard rims etc.) You make a list of ACC teams over the last 10 years and the number of foot / ankle / toe injuries sustained and I'd bet my mom's dog Duke has had a higher rate than ANY other ACC school.


It's freakin' great Duke has the medical staff to work miracles and get the players back as fast as possible. But I'm not sure someone shouldn't investigate possibles causes. Duke can't be the only school recruiting players with bad feet and ankles, the odds defy it.

Karl Beem
01-09-2008, 08:41 AM
First one of these I remember was Brand. Any chance this is all related to the floor change in Cameron (if I recall occcurred after the 96-97 season)?

As I recall the floor change was supposed to reduce the number of high ankle sprains. The new floor was springier.

allenmurray
01-09-2008, 08:42 AM
I had to say this... "because it's fun?" ... "for us fans"? even if it doesn't make any sense? :D

Great post!

Somethimes we say things for fun, even if we are not serious. My post about Ogabaase was not serious, but it was fun to think about (can you imagine driving the lane and seeing him there, I think I'd just say, "Here you go sir, would you like the ball? I don't need it anymore.")

jimsumner
01-09-2008, 08:54 AM
RE: Steve Johnson.

Duke is hoping to redshirt him.

rsvman
01-09-2008, 09:19 AM
Zoub needs to spend some time with his body, learning how his hips work and how they can work better, learning how the alignment of his feet are affected by his hips, his pelvis, his toes, etc, and learning how those parts and others can work in better sync. Heck, we all need to be learning about that. Movement is an essential part of life; why anyone would take it for granted, or work on body parts in isolation based upon other's directions with no greater understanding for themselves is understandable given our cultural paradigm--go to an expert and they will make it "better."

It is, however, silliness if you bother to think about it.

Greybeard, sometimes you say some really bizarre things, and this is one of those times.

I would make the exact opposite argument. I think it is "silliness" to overthink how the body parts work when your body moves. Movement, as you noted, is an essential part of life; it follows that movement is natural, kind of like breathing. You COULD spend a lot of time thinking about how your body breathes, how the diaphragm works, how the air goes in and out, how oxygen is passed through the walls of the alveoli into the bloodstream, etc., etc., but you can breathe just as well without thinking about it at all. And the human body is made to move in the same way that it is made to breathe. Effortlessly and without aforethought. We SHOULD take movement for granted.

RepoMan
01-09-2008, 09:30 AM
Greybeard, sometimes you say some really bizarre things, and this is one of those times.

I would make the exact opposite argument. I think it is "silliness" to overthink how the body parts work when your body moves. Movement, as you noted, is an essential part of life; it follows that movement is natural, kind of like breathing. You COULD spend a lot of time thinking about how your body breathes, how the diaphragm works, how the air goes in and out, how oxygen is passed through the walls of the alveoli into the bloodstream, etc., etc., but you can breathe just as well without thinking about it at all. And the human body is made to move in the same way that it is made to breathe. Effortlessly and without aforethought. We SHOULD take movement for granted.

Oh boy. Now you've done it.

Karl Beem
01-09-2008, 09:41 AM
RE: Steve Johnson.

Duke is hoping to redshirt him.


Why? Do they think that he has scholarship potential?

BlueDevilBaby
01-09-2008, 12:43 PM
Greybeard, sometimes you say some really bizarre things, and this is one of those times.

I would make the exact opposite argument. I think it is "silliness" to overthink how the body parts work when your body moves. Movement, as you noted, is an essential part of life; it follows that movement is natural, kind of like breathing. You COULD spend a lot of time thinking about how your body breathes, how the diaphragm works, how the air goes in and out, how oxygen is passed through the walls of the alveoli into the bloodstream, etc., etc., but you can breathe just as well without thinking about it at all. And the human body is made to move in the same way that it is made to breathe. Effortlessly and without aforethought. We SHOULD take movement for granted.

So we should just throw kinesiology out the window?

jzp5079
01-09-2008, 12:55 PM
objectively speaking - would Duke have spent so much time and effort recruiting Lance Thomas if they would have known he would have only been averaging 2 rebounds against marginal non-conference opponents in his sophmore season in 18 minutes per game? He dosn't even really have any competition down there to pull down boards (from teammates), but he still can't get them.

greybeard
01-09-2008, 01:11 PM
Greybeard, sometimes you say some really bizarre things, and this is one of those times.

I would make the exact opposite argument. I think it is "silliness" to overthink how the body parts work when your body moves. Movement, as you noted, is an essential part of life; it follows that movement is natural, kind of like breathing. You COULD spend a lot of time thinking about how your body breathes, how the diaphragm works, how the air goes in and out, how oxygen is passed through the walls of the alveoli into the bloodstream, etc., etc., but you can breathe just as well without thinking about it at all. And the human body is made to move in the same way that it is made to breathe. Effortlessly and without aforethought. We SHOULD take movement for granted.

Everyone is entitled to his or her view. You would, however, be amazed, neigh your brain would be frazzled, about how a conscious exploration of movements of the pelvis and ribs, which necessarily involve conscious movement of the limbs, could expand exponentially one's ability to take in air and expel it; to do it with ease and greatly facilitate the exchange of gases. In fact, just the other night, lead by the words of the man himself, Moshe Feldenkrais, taped in SF some 30years ago, I had just such an experience. I can assure you it was quite impressive; afterwards, the feeling of freedom in through my ribs, actually my entire torso, remained for some time; very nice to know what can be different.

Or one could delve into the breath work of Hatha Yoga, known as praniama. My suggestion is that you pursue that in the Iyengar tradition, which will require you to take at least one six month instructional series in posture work in most Iyengar studios. Can we say lala land boys and girls.

Movement without the ability to make a conscious choice leaves us no different than lower stratta animals. The ability to chose how to organize oneself to perform simple tasks is empowering and produces growth.

Or you could leave it all to chance, until you get injured, in which case you will do it exactly the way some "expert" tells you, and you will then pay attention to the smallest detail. You will, however, have no ability to chose and learn nothing in the process, which is the shame of the paridigm you embrace.

tweeze
01-09-2008, 01:24 PM
Ask yourself would Thomas have came to Duke if he knew he would be forced to play the center position when he is really a small forward?

I think he could contribute if he gets consistent minutes.


How bout we get the center from Unc-Asheville, 7'7 360lbs? Hope Handsbrra has fun with that tonight.

rsvman
01-09-2008, 01:24 PM
Movement without the ability to make a conscious choice leaves us no different than lower stratta animals.

A. You're out of your mind (in my humble opinion; others are entitled, as you so eloquently pointed out, to form their own opinions).

B. The lower "stratta" animals have been doing quite well without the help of the Maharishi Yogi (or whomever) for hundreds of thousands of years. In fact, one could make a cogent argument that when it comes to movement, many of the lower animals do much better than lowly homo sapiens does. Compare your sprint speed to that of a cheetah, or your leaping ability to that of, say, an impala. And I dare say that their injury rates, despite all their predator/prey-induced vigorous activity, is considerably lower than ours. In short, when it comes to movement, most might consider it PREFERABLE to be able to move in the manner of the animals you seemingly disparage with your misspelled reference to their strata.

greybeard
01-09-2008, 01:38 PM
A. You're out of your mind (in my humble opinion; others are entitled, as you so eloquently pointed out, to form their own opinions).

B. The lower "stratta" animals have been doing quite well without the help of the Maharishi Yogi (or whomever) for hundreds of thousands of years. In fact, one could make a cogent argument that when it comes to movement, many of the lower animals do much better than lowly homo sapiens does. Compare your sprint speed to that of a cheetah, or your leaping ability to that of, say, an impala. And I dare say that their injury rates, despite all their predator/prey-induced vigorous activity, is considerably lower than ours. In short, when it comes to movement, most might consider it PREFERABLE to be able to move in the manner of the animals you seemingly disparage with your misspelled reference to their strata.

Lower animals, most all of them, are born with almost a complete set of amulatory skills. Humans learn them, except the ability to breathe. Even suckling takes some practice.

So, you and lower stratta animals are not on the same plane; they have it all over you from the get go. On the other hand, you have an ability to learn that is superior to theirs. And, that ability is most discernible in the realm of movement. You can grow emotionally, but how should we measure that. You can grow spiritually, but again we are at a loss.

Ah, intellectually, you will say, the ability to think. What about that, you ask. That sir, is precisely where I began.

So did you, whether you acknowledge it or not, and it was not by sticking your head in no book. It was in the realm of movement, at least until your parents decided to "teach" you to stand. Then apparently the process got stopped. It does happen to the best of us.

Moshe Feldenkrais was a world class scientist; his methodology is in the forefront of the educational and wellness sytems in one of the most inventive and progressive democracies in the world today; and the practice of pranayama has been around for thousands of years.

Mr. Iyengar is a scientist equal to Mr. Feldenkrais. He knows more about the human body in movement than the collectivity of orthopedic surgeons who practice at Duke University hospital. He invented or at least codified every single stretch that every single trainer in every high end athletic program in the United States of America uses, or should I say misuses, because they do not know half what a certified Iyengar yoga teacher (I personally am a Kripalu Yoga guy myself, btw) knows because a certified Iyengar teacher will have engaged in a systematic course of personal exploration with numerous permutations of each stretch over a period of years to be certified and will continue that exploration as long as they teach. Those are facts.

I don't know what Marhar whatever you refer to, but can the insults and try educating yourself, even a tinge, before you speak about something you know nothing about. Or not. Frankly, what it mean to me?

FishStick
01-09-2008, 01:44 PM
Not to mention, humans are still not fully evolved for walking upright. Knowing one's body better is a great suggestion for every athlete and would help reduce injuries. For example, training to correct running posture has already been shown to drastically reduce ACL tears in women. All that said, I'm sure Duke Med is way above and beyond most of the suggestions we're making. Hopefully they can fix Zoubs (more permanently this time) and he will be back sooner than later. Can we apply those foot x-rays on future recruits to ensure healthier players in the future?

greybeard
01-09-2008, 01:50 PM
Oh, by the way, what do foulshooters do before they shoot. That's right, rman, they try to take a deep breath.

And, what do runners do to try to maximize their performance, either sprinters or distance runners. It's okay, rman, you could say it, we all know.

And, what do they tell women to do in order to make giving birth go better. Never mind, "I got no further use for this guy."

The point is, with all this importance being placed around taking a freakin deep breath, you think it might be worth a moment of someone's time to try to figure out how it might be done better? Yeah, I know, it comes naturally.

Well, we do have an ability to get in the way of nature, and the diaphram is a muscle that tends to get more than a tad cramped up, made rigid, by a little thing called stress. Ditto for the ribs. Forget it, what's the point.

rsvman
01-09-2008, 02:00 PM
First off, I appologize if anything I said came across to you as an insult. I DID say you were out of your mind, but I didn't mean it in a disparaging way. What I meant was that your viewpoint appears to be eccentric (at least as compared to that of those of us who are familiar with neither the scientists you mentioned nor their field of study). Eccentricity is not bad; in fact, I think that generally it should be celebrated. So, again, I apologize if you took my post as an insult. I'm rather enjoying the conversation.

Furthermore, I will readily admit to ignorance when it comes to yoga and the like. I am not, however, a closed-minded individual, and I enjoy learning new things. Therefore, I will take your advice and cease pontificating until I have educated myself further on the points in your post.



So did you, whether you acknowledge it or not, and it was not by sticking your head in no book. It was in the realm of movement, at least until your parents decided to "teach" you to stand.

The quoted part is the only part of your post that bothered me in the least. I am hoping it doesn't mean that the scientists you referenced are the type who believe that humans are not meant to walk upright. I don't think that humans need to be taught to stand. I think standing and walking upright are natural for our species.

However, as I said, I don't know the positions of the two men you mentioned, so I will refrain from further comment until I have had a chance to learn something about them and their work.

greybeard
01-09-2008, 02:03 PM
Not to mention, humans are still not fully evolved for walking upright. Knowing one's body better is a great suggestion for every athlete and would help reduce injuries. For example, training to correct running posture has already been shown to drastically reduce ACL tears in women. All that said, I'm sure Duke Med is way above and beyond most of the suggestions we're making. Hopefully they can fix Zoubs (more permanently this time) and he will be back sooner than later. Can we apply those foot x-rays on future recruits to ensure healthier players in the future?

I would not be too confident. If you read the research article on metatarsal injuries conducted at Duke several years ago that a poster on this thread made available you will see not one word in it about how to improve anything. That he offered would be the business of atheletic trainers. Ditto for the studies on the high incidence of ACL tears in women athletes. All kinds of inquiries into possible causes; nothing as to solutions, except a few training techniques for which there is some anechotal evidence of marginal success over a 10 year period.

Athletic trainers are in the business of improving performance. Like the entire business of medicine, they are driven by the need to produce discernible results. Can the kid jump higher, change direction better, be more explosive out of a three point, turn on a fastball more efficiently, etc.

They have machines that image body mechanics, again to improve on output. I do not think that the trainer community is equiped or trained to explore the question of how do I reduce the incidence of injury. I just don't. Nor do I think that the responsibility for that lies with them.

Devil in the Blue Dress
01-09-2008, 02:34 PM
First off, I appologize if anything I said came across to you as an insult. I DID say you were out of your mind, but I didn't mean it in a disparaging way. What I meant was that your viewpoint appears to be eccentric (at least as compared to that of those of us who are familiar with neither the scientists you mentioned nor their field of study). Eccentricity is not bad; in fact, I think that generally it should be celebrated. So, again, I apologize if you took my post as an insult. I'm rather enjoying the conversation.

Furthermore, I will readily admit to ignorance when it comes to yoga and the like. I am not, however, a closed-minded individual, and I enjoy learning new things. Therefore, I will take your advice and cease pontificating until I have educated myself further on the points in your post.



The quoted part is the only part of your post that bothered me in the least. I am hoping it doesn't mean that the scientists you referenced are the type who believe that humans are not meant to walk upright. I don't think that humans need to be taught to stand. I think standing and walking upright are natural for our species.

However, as I said, I don't know the positions of the two men you mentioned, so I will refrain from further comment until I have had a chance to learn something about them and their work.

Have you tried any forms of alternative medicine or meditation to improve some aspect of your life? The world offers many viable alternatives to the strictly scientific approach so valued in the western world.

Are you familiar with visualization as a method to improve performance? What about Pilates to improve strength and flexibility? Or using dance to improve movement for other activities such as playing football or basketball?

greybeard
01-09-2008, 02:34 PM
First off, I appologize if anything I said came across to you as an insult. I DID say you were out of your mind, but I didn't mean it in a disparaging way. What I meant was that your viewpoint appears to be eccentric (at least as compared to that of those of us who are familiar with neither the scientists you mentioned nor their field of study). Eccentricity is not bad; in fact, I think that generally it should be celebrated. So, again, I apologize if you took my post as an insult. I'm rather enjoying the conversation.

Furthermore, I will readily admit to ignorance when it comes to yoga and the like. I am not, however, a closed-minded individual, and I enjoy learning new things. Therefore, I will take your advice and cease pontificating until I have educated myself further on the points in your post.



The quoted part is the only part of your post that bothered me in the least. I am hoping it doesn't mean that the scientists you referenced are the type who believe that humans are not meant to walk upright. I don't think that humans need to be taught to stand. I think standing and walking upright are natural for our species.

However, as I said, I don't know the positions of the two men you mentioned, so I will refrain from further comment until I have had a chance to learn something about them and their work.

Eccentric I can live with; heck, I have to! :)

I saw a recent National Geographic special that put forth your view that standing upright is instinctual for humans. I found the argument terribly unscientific. They put forth pictures of newbies, who when held under their armpits, would move their legs in a walk like fashion. They point to this as evidence of an instinct to walk. The reality is that newbies have an instinctual fear of falling, or at least curl up using their flexors most of the time. You suspend them, the legs hang. Now, there are only so many ways legs can move.

I can go on, but suffice it to say that I found other parts of the argument they put forth as scientific theory unsustainable.

With regard to standing, what I was referring to is the fact that infants learn incredibly complicated movements like rolling over, sitting up, which are really, really quite complicated, and, in most cases figure out ways to do so with terrific ease and grace that most adults no longer can replicate (it is readily accessible by the way), and then, when it comes to standing and walking, parents intercede, and usually not to the good.

I can see people's eyes rolling around in their heads about now. Sorry, folks, I'll stop.

grey "the ever so eccentric and sometimes so exquisitly ultra sensative to even a hint of criticism" beard

rsvman
01-09-2008, 04:42 PM
Have you tried any forms of alternative medicine or meditation to improve some aspect of your life? The world offers many viable alternatives to the strictly scientific approach so valued in the western world.
Yes, I have, and I agree with you that there are alternatives that are helpful and attractive. I have especially been impressed with meditation and even self-hypnosis as a method of self-improvement.


Are you familiar with visualization as a method to improve performance? What about Pilates to improve strength and flexibility? Or using dance to improve movement for other activities such as playing football or basketball?

I am familiar with visualization, including visualization studies. I don't know anything about Pilates, and I am also unfamiliar with dance as a mechanism for improving sports performance. I don't doubt that dance would be helpful; I wonder if it would be difficult getting some athletes to give it a try.

Thanks for bringing these points up for discussion.

Lavabe
01-09-2008, 05:00 PM
A. You're out of your mind (in my humble opinion; others are entitled, as you so eloquently pointed out, to form their own opinions).

B. The lower "stratta" animals have been doing quite well without the help of the Maharishi Yogi (or whomever) for hundreds of thousands of years. In fact, one could make a cogent argument that when it comes to movement, many of the lower animals do much better than lowly homo sapiens does. Compare your sprint speed to that of a cheetah, or your leaping ability to that of, say, an impala. And I dare say that their injury rates, despite all their predator/prey-induced vigorous activity, is considerably lower than ours. In short, when it comes to movement, most might consider it PREFERABLE to be able to move in the manner of the animals you seemingly disparage with your misspelled reference to their strata.

FWIW, greybeard/rudra has always freely admitted to his spelling issues. He's also spelled incorrectly in different languages ... often with great humor.:D It's his shtick on the DBR. Just as normal as Jason's long quotes in his name. I believe EagleDevil (on the old board) was one of the first to comment about this.

My conspiracy belief is that greybeard actually did not post on this thread today. The true one would have cited Bob Dylan!;)
Cheers,
Lavabe

3rd Dukie
01-09-2008, 07:14 PM
Everyone is entitled to his or her view. You would, however, be amazed, neigh your brain would be frazzled, about how a conscious exploration of movements of the pelvis and ribs, which necessarily involve conscious movement of the limbs, could expand exponentially one's ability to take in air and expel it; to do it with ease and greatly facilitate the exchange of gases. In fact, just the other night, lead by the words of the man himself, Moshe Feldenkrais, taped in SF some 30years ago, I had just such an experience. I can assure you it was quite impressive; afterwards, the feeling of freedom in through my ribs, actually my entire torso, remained for some time; very nice to know what can be different.

Or one could delve into the breath work of Hatha Yoga, known as praniama. My suggestion is that you pursue that in the Iyengar tradition, which will require you to take at least one six month instructional series in posture work in most Iyengar studios. Can we say lala land boys and girls.

Movement without the ability to make a conscious choice leaves us no different than lower stratta animals. The ability to chose how to organize oneself to perform simple tasks is empowering and produces growth.

Or you could leave it all to chance, until you get injured, in which case you will do it exactly the way some "expert" tells you, and you will then pay attention to the smallest detail. You will, however, have no ability to chose and learn nothing in the process, which is the shame of the paridigm you embrace.

I don't know much, if anything, about yoga. However, I have just spent the last three years in physical therapy (6 hours a week) for a crushed ankle, and the ancillary problems it caused. Much of that time, in addition to the actual exercising, was dedicated to learning about the movement in one part of the body affects other parts of the body. Maybe I am out of bloomin' mind as well, but I agree completely with Greybeard.

After all, martial arts in particular, and most sports in general, require total body coordination. For example, think about the fact that power in a punch starts with the ankles. The body must function in a coordinated fashion for maximum
efficiency.

mgtr
01-09-2008, 08:37 PM
Greybeard -- you certainly seem to have views which are out of the mainstream. But, in a world where political results seem to be upside down, and Iran thinks they can harass US Navy warships with little speedboats, maybe it all fits. Maybe you are right and all the rest of us are wrong. Pretty hard to say anymore.
However (and that is a very big however), sometimes you are right on target. So, the rest of us have think about what you are saying and the relevance thereof. Clearly this is more difficult than just blowing you off. Most of us don't really want to make the effort to determine which is which.

greybeard
01-10-2008, 09:14 AM
Greybeard -- you certainly seem to have views which are out of the mainstream. But, in a world where political results seem to be upside down, and Iran thinks they can harass US Navy warships with little speedboats, maybe it all fits. Maybe you are right and all the rest of us are wrong. Pretty hard to say anymore.
However (and that is a very big however), sometimes you are right on target. So, the rest of us have think about what you are saying and the relevance thereof. Clearly this is more difficult than just blowing you off. Most of us don't really want to make the effort to determine which is which.

Thanks, I think. :) The views I express about movement, learning, the state of injury in sport, what trainers have to contribute and what they do not, might be out of the mainstream in the sense that many people, especially in the media don't talk about such matters, but they are not as "out there", for lack of a better term, as some might think. They are grounded in years of study from masters of movement in many different disciplines and self-experimentation with core concepts that I have picked up about the nature of learning and the movement combinations at the core of various activities.

In my opinion, any person seriously interested in sport should have in his library a book by PGA Master Golf Professional Michael Hebron. The book, Golf Swing Secrets . . . And Lies, Six Timeless Lessons, begins with a discussion of the nature of learning, education, teaching, performance, the ability to make progress and its opposite, that I believe captures the essence of the oversimplified and dysfunctional world that most of us function in when it comes to the games that we play and watch, including the game, as it were, of ambulating in this life. Whether you are a golfer or not, reading the first 50 pages of this book will expand your concepts about, and appreciation of, why it is that with the thousands and thousands of "how to" lessons, most of us still do not have a clue about what might make that ball move, much less how to go about moving it. You can extrapolate from there. Later.

Jeffrey
01-10-2008, 09:25 AM
The views I express about movement, learning, the state of injury in sport, what trainers have to contribute and what they do not, might be out of the mainstream in the sense that many people, especially in the media don't talk about such matters, but they are not as "out there", for lack of a better term, as some might think. They are grounded in years of study from masters of movement in many different disciplines and self-experimentation with core concepts that I have picked up about the nature of learning and the movement combinations at the core of various activities.

Hi,

Geez, I just thought you had taken too much acid! :D

Best regards,
Jeffrey

greybeard
01-10-2008, 12:04 PM
Hi,

Geez, I just thought you had taken too much acid! :D

Best regards,
Jeffrey

"Too much?" EJ, seems like there's fodder for another thread. :cool:

Jeffrey
01-10-2008, 12:56 PM
"Too much?" EJ, seems like there's fodder for another thread. :cool:

Hi,

:D It appears you reside in the fifth dimension while those you're debating need 3D glasses just to see your trails.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

greybeard
01-10-2008, 02:13 PM
Hi,

:D It appears you reside in the fifth dimension while those you're debating need 3D glasses just to see your trails.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

Thinking does take a tad of work.

If people need to figure out how to swing a golf club, and even the best of the best like Tiger need experts to help them explore how they might swing it more effectively, then why would anyone think that how we think does not impact how we stand and walk, and why thinking differently might not improve how we currently accomplish those tasks? Is that what you mean by something that requires 3D glasses?

If so, I suggest instead LOGIC 101. :D

Unlike a wildebeast, you, Sir Jeffrey, were not "Born to Run," but rather had to learn to, and might still improve on it, but only if you are willing to think before you put your foot . . .

greybeard
01-10-2008, 02:26 PM
By the way, on this board at least, I do not see myself "debating" anyone. I put forth my perspectives and listen to others. People comment on what they read.

Most of the debates concern matters of speculation, for example, why is K not playing Smith more, which I find moot, to say the least.

Does thinking underlie the quality of movement? How can anyone debate about that? They can ignore that reality--conduct most of what they do without considering how they might improve their thought processes (concepts) and therefore improve the quality and enjoyment of performance; but debate it or change it. Please.

greybeard
01-10-2008, 03:44 PM
And, to put what I mean about "core" concepts regarding certain sports into concrete terms, allow me to.

It would be helpful to anyone trying to learn to hit a baseball to know that what makes the ball "pop" off the bat is pressure, and that it is not possible to put pressure into the ball if the barrell of the bat reaches the ball in front of the hands.

It would also be helpful for a young child to know that the bat does not move forward when one swings and tries to impart pressure into the ball. The bat barrell first drops, moves down, and than moves out as a consequence of rotation of the body. It is only after impact that the bat moves forward.

If this information is imparted, and pictures, as in a demonstration of positions, are shown to the kid who is trying to learn, the kid's ability to figure out how to hit a baseball with authority is going to be greatly accelerated.

In basketball, it is not possible to create a repeatable shot without a proper release of the wrist/hand to give the ball flight. It will be useful to anyone interested in making progress in learning to shoot if they are shown what pronation of the wrist/hand looks like. The same mechanism is at work in a two hand chest past, in which case both hands pronate. As the wrists in young children, under 12 or 13 generally, are too supple to function maximally as a lever, the two handed chest pass is a much better way for a young person to explore and learn for his or herself the feel for a proper release and an appreciation of the difference such a release will make to the easy and controllable flight of a basketball.

Now, if these elements are left for an individual to figure out on their own, they will watch others and, through trial and error, perhaps figure out these and other "core" elements. Unfortunately, we do not always see what we think we see. And many people go through life without ever having compressed a baseball, although they played lots and lots of baseball, or ever having shot a basketball with real touch.

Demonstrating such core elements in performing certain tasks in sports is not the same as trying to "teach" someone how to hit a baseball (have you ever watched little league coaches who have no clue about compressing a baseball try to do that) or how to shoot a basketball. Those are things that kids get to figure out for themselves through the free flow of experimentation known as play.

Read at least the first 50 pages of Hebron's book, especially if you have kids and want to be helpful in their making progress in the sports that they chose to play.

Lavabe
01-10-2008, 07:07 PM
Oh boy. Now you've done it.

There should have been a flashing blue light attached to your message.

Cheers,
Lavabe

77devil
01-10-2008, 08:07 PM
Greybeard -- Maybe you are right and all the rest of us are wrong.

I don't think so.


So, the rest of us have think about what you are saying and the relevance thereof.


No I don't, and believe me, I choose not to.

Saratoga2
01-14-2008, 08:14 AM
We are now into the period without Brian. By the sound of things, he should return by the 1st of February, if not sooner. He has looked good this year, but I read that he had some sort of specialized insert in his sneaker to minimize the pressure of playing on the foot that had been broken. I wonder if that may have hampered his further improvement, much like Nelson's heavy cast when he wore that. Kind of limited ones mobility.

markbdevil
01-14-2008, 08:19 AM
We are now into the period without Brian. By the sound of things, he should return by the 1st of February, if not sooner. He has looked good this year, but I read that he had some sort of specialized insert in his sneaker to minimize the pressure of playing on the foot that had been broken. I wonder if that may have hampered his further improvement, much like Nelson's heavy cast when he wore that. Kind of limited ones mobility.

He was wearing dress shoes last night instead of a boot, so I hope this is a good sign.