Duhon Back in Starting Lineup

[JBDuke]

Apparently, one of the first acts of the Bulls new interim coach, Jim Boylan, was to put Chris into the starting lineup and move Gordon back to the sixth man role. Perhaps not coincidentally, the Bulls have won 3 of their last 4.

Chris's numbers have not been spectacular - especially in the scoring column - but he does have 13 asts vs. 2 turnovers in those four games. Plus, I always thought his contributions were hard to measure in his personal stats.

BTW, Luol had a pretty decent line tonight: 21 points, 13 boards, 5 asts.

[CDu]

Apparently, one of the first acts of the Bulls new interim coach, Jim Boylan, was to put Chris into the starting lineup and move Gordon back to the sixth man role. Perhaps not coincidentally, the Bulls have won 3 of their last 4.

Chris's numbers have not been spectacular - especially in the scoring column - but he does have 13 asts vs. 2 turnovers in those four games. Plus, I always thought his contributions were hard to measure in his personal stats.

BTW, Luol had a pretty decent line tonight: 21 points, 13 boards, 5 asts.

To be honest, I think the team's success in these last 4 games has been more a function of how Gordon has responded to the change, as well as the opponents and the inspiration of the coaching change. In those four games, Gordon has put up the following stat lines:

35 minutes, 8-20, 31 pts
30 minutes, 11-15, 25 pts
41 minutes, 16-27, 41 pts
37 minutes, 8-20, 22 pts

Despite starting, Duhon's role hasn't really expanded. He's still playing 3rd guard minutes (averaging 25 minutes per game over this stretch including an overtime game) and Gordon still plays the starter's minutes. The team was just trying to shake things up and give Gordon some incentive to play better. Gordon is pretty mercurial, and they've had a really hard time figuring out how to utilize his tremendous ability to score in bunches.

Duhon has pretty much had the same role with the Bulls for several years, whether he's been a starter or not. He plays 20-25 minutes per game as the third guard. It's sort of the opposite of Scheyer's role, where he's the 6th man but plays big minutes.

Duhon's unselfishness fits well because they have lots of perimeter players who dominate the ball (Gordon, Hinrich, Deng, Nocioni) and Duhon can kind of drift to the corners for 3s. Defensively, he fits well because he can guard point guards when he's in with Hinrich and shooting guards when he's in with Gordon (who is a real defensive liability).

[OZZIE4DUKE]

In those four games, Gordon has put up the following stat lines:

35 minutes, 8-20, 31 pts
30 minutes, 11-15, 25 pts
41 minutes, 16-27, 41 pts
37 minutes, 8-20, 22 pts

Duhon has pretty much had the same role with the Bulls for several years, whether he's been a starter or not. He plays 20-25 minutes per game as the third guard. It's sort of the opposite of Scheyer's role, where he's the 6th man but plays big minutes.



Actually, Gordon and Scheyer are playing the exact same role. Duhon's time more resembles Lance Thomas's role.

[CDu]

Actually, Gordon and Scheyer are playing the exact same role. Duhon's time more resembles Lance Thomas's role.

Yup, that's correct, and probably a better way of saying what I was trying to say. Duhon's role as a starter is pretty much in name only - he doesn't really play starter's minutes.

[yancem]

To be honest, I think the team's success in these last 4 games has been more a function of how Gordon has responded to the change, as well as the opponents and the inspiration of the coaching change. In those four games, Gordon has put up the following stat lines:

35 minutes, 8-20, 31 pts
30 minutes, 11-15, 25 pts
41 minutes, 16-27, 41 pts
37 minutes, 8-20, 22 pts

Despite starting, Duhon's role hasn't really expanded. He's still playing 3rd guard minutes (averaging 25 minutes per game over this stretch including an overtime game) and Gordon still plays the starter's minutes. The team was just trying to shake things up and give Gordon some incentive to play better. Gordon is pretty mercurial, and they've had a really hard time figuring out how to utilize his tremendous ability to score in bunches.

Duhon has pretty much had the same role with the Bulls for several years, whether he's been a starter or not. He plays 20-25 minutes per game as the third guard. It's sort of the opposite of Scheyer's role, where he's the 6th man but plays big minutes.

Duhon's unselfishness fits well because they have lots of perimeter players who dominate the ball (Gordon, Hinrich, Deng, Nocioni) and Duhon can kind of drift to the corners for 3s. Defensively, he fits well because he can guard point guards when he's in with Hinrich and shooting guards when he's in with Gordon (who is a real defensive liability).

Gordon has put up dominate numbers in the last week and very solid numbers all year but sometimes I think he hurts the team more than he helps. When he is on he is virtually unstoppable but when he is off he is a black hole. I know that shooters are supposed to keep shooting but I can't count the number of times I've looked at the box scores and seen his line as 3-16 or 4-20. On top of that he's not a very good defender and usually doesn't bring much to the game besides scoring.

Now don't get me wrong when he scores, he scores big and that can be a tremendous asset. But when he has an off night he sometimes shoots the team to defeat. If I was GM or coach of Da Bulls I would see what kind of trade I could get for him. Hinrich is a solid point guard who can play the two and Duhon is a solid backup for either guard spot. What they need is a two guard that can play solid defense and score effectively without taking a ton of shots. I think Deng is the cornerstone of the franchise and with Gordon dominating the ball as much as he does Deng isn't getting enough touches to truly dominate.

Just one man's opinion

[CDu]

Gordon has put up dominate numbers in the last week and very solid numbers all year but sometimes I think he hurts the team more than he helps. When he is on he is virtually unstoppable but when he is off he is a black hole. I know that shooters are supposed to keep shooting but I can't count the number of times I've looked at the box scores and seen his line as 3-16 or 4-20. On top of that he's not a very good defender and usually doesn't bring much to the game besides scoring.

Now don't get me wrong when he scores, he scores big and that can be a tremendous asset. But when he has an off night he sometimes shoots the team to defeat. If I was GM or coach of Da Bulls I would see what kind of trade I could get for him. Hinrich is a solid point guard who can play the two and Duhon is a solid backup for either guard spot. What they need is a two guard that can play solid defense and score effectively without taking a ton of shots. I think Deng is the cornerstone of the franchise and with Gordon dominating the ball as much as he does Deng isn't getting enough touches to truly dominate.

Just one man's opinion

I completely agree about Gordon. He is amazing when he's hot, and amazingly bad for the team when he's not. He blows up for monster stretches where no one can guard him, but his only value on the court is if he can score. He can't distribute or create for others, can't defend, and doesn't rebound.

As for the team, I agree they could use a big shooting guard, preferably one who can defend, score, and handle the ball and create for others a bit. However, I don't think that's their biggest need. They have absolutely no post presence offensively. Everything depends on jumpshots at least 15-20 feet from the basket or on slashing wing players. They need someone who they can dump the ball to in the post who can score. I'd rate that as priority #1, and getting a bigger 2 guard as priority #2.

I think the 2006 draft was a huge disaster for the Bulls. They could have kept Lamarcus Aldridge or taken Brandon Roy. Each of those guys would have addressed one of the team's two biggest needs. If they drafted Roy, they could have then packaged Gordon with other commodities and gotten a post player. If they'd kept Aldridge, they'd have an effective low post scorer. Instead, they drafted Tyrus Thomas (undersized PF with zero offensive game) and Thabo Sefalosha (foreign swingman who's a bit of a project). Neither has developed, and because of that the team has plateaued.

[SilkyJ]

He can't distribute or create for others, can't defend, and doesn't rebound.

thats got to be the reason duhon was inserted into the lineup. he just does more things and as a 6th man in the NBA you still get play starters minutes so gordon will be able to do what he does best which is score.

[CDu]

thats got to be the reason duhon was inserted into the lineup. he just does more things and as a 6th man in the NBA you still get play starters minutes so gordon will be able to do what he does best which is score.

I think that's certainly a part of it. I think there are two other big factors going on here as well:

1. Moving Gordon to the bench forces Deng to become more involved early in the game. Gordon can be a dominating presence in the offense (for good or for bad), so with Gordon and Deng starting, Deng can sometimes disappear early. With Gordon on the bench to start, Deng becomes the primary option (and Hinrich takes a more prominent role as well).
2. Moving Gordon to the bench provides Gordon more incentive to be focused. He apparently has a bit of a tendency to get complacent. By bringing Gordon off the bench, you can keep him motivated.

[SilkyJ]

I think that's certainly a part of it. I think there are two other big factors going on here as well:

1. Moving Gordon to the bench forces Deng to become more involved early in the game. Gordon can be a dominating presence in the offense (for good or for bad), so with Gordon and Deng starting, Deng can sometimes disappear early. With Gordon on the bench to start, Deng becomes the primary option (and Hinrich takes a more prominent role as well).
2. Moving Gordon to the bench provides Gordon more incentive to be focused. He apparently has a bit of a tendency to get complacent. By bringing Gordon off the bench, you can keep him motivated.

Great point on the first one. The 2nd one makes sense to me, but I was unaware of this tendency and I'm not sure what you mean actually. I always think of Gordon as a bit of a gunner (again, for good or for bad) so I'm guessing you don't mean he dissappears on offense. Do you mean he needs motivation to just play harder? Do you mean he becomes complacent shooting outside jumpers? either way, moving someone to that 6th man role can certainly be a great motivational tactic, if thats what needed...

[gotham devil]

Every time I see BG I get a sick feeling in my stomach. We all make mistakes and Ewing had a nice career at Duke, but I can't get past the fact that the staff viewed Ewing as a better prospect than Bennie Gordon.

If Gordon came from a different area of the country and wasn't really interested in Duke, I could simply forget about it. It's a shame because he could've helped Duke to win a title in 2004-instead of getting Coach Calhoun a second NCAA title.

[CDu]

Great point on the first one. The 2nd one makes sense to me, but I was unaware of this tendency and I'm not sure what you mean actually. I always think of Gordon as a bit of a gunner (again, for good or for bad) so I'm guessing you don't mean he dissappears on offense. Do you mean he needs motivation to just play harder? Do you mean he becomes complacent shooting outside jumpers? either way, moving someone to that 6th man role can certainly be a great motivational tactic, if thats what needed...

Yeah, Gordon never has had a problem with actually taking shots when he gets the ball. But his complacency manifests itself in other areas, both offensively and defensively. On offense, he tends to stand around and not be involved when he doesn't have the ball. By moving more, he gets himself in better scoring positions, creates more scoring chances for himself, and can help keep the offense flowing smoothly. Also, he tends to settle for more jump shots rather than attacking the rim. On defense, he becomes disinterested and loses his man more frequently, both on and off the ball.

[SilkyJ]

Yeah, Gordon never has had a problem with actually taking shots when he gets the ball. But his complacency manifests itself in other areas, both offensively and defensively. On offense, he tends to stand around and not be involved when he doesn't have the ball. By moving more, he gets himself in better scoring positions, creates more scoring chances for himself, and can help keep the offense flowing smoothly. Also, he tends to settle for more jump shots rather than attacking the rim. On defense, he becomes disinterested and loses his man more frequently, both on and off the ball.

gotcha. i guess just overall doing that to a starter (making him the 6th man) just forces you to focus and try harder....unless ur a pouter, which I dont think gordon is.

[greybeard]

Projectivity. Ben has it in spades. No, I didn't just make up the term. EarlJam did. It's a long story, and as soon as he comes down, he'll tell it. (See his most recent Off-Topic thread.)

Projectivity, the ability of an individual to not simply see himself in the flow created by others but actually experience it, thus creating the ideal environment in which to perform maximally once you transmute into real world action.

So, Ben has the ability to imagine himself performing in exact syncronicity with the flow of the game he is observing in much the same way that some people who engage in imaginary practice of a task that they are adept at improve more than by actual repetitions.

Projectivity therefore would explain why guys like Ben and others before him perform so well coming off the bench, much better often than when they start.

But, not only that, projectivity would also explain Ben's lapses on defense. See, he gets caught up in projectivity while on defense. He starts being projective while watching the other team with the ball and, when what they are doing ceases to comport with the flow that he sees as having been developed, he gets lost, because he is where they should be instead of where they are.

Man, that EarlJam is something, ain't he. ;)

[CDu]

Projectivity. Ben has it in spades. No, I didn't just make up the term. EarlJam did. It's a long story, and as soon as he comes down, he'll tell it. (See his most recent Off-Topic thread.)

Projectivity, the ability of an individual to not simply see himself in the flow created by others but actually experience it, thus creating the ideal environment in which to perform maximally once you transmute into real world action.

So, Ben has the ability to imagine himself performing in exact syncronicity with the flow of the game he is observing in much the same way that some people who engage in imaginary practice of a task that they are adept at improve more than by actual repetitions.

Projectivity therefore would explain why guys like Ben and others before him perform so well coming off the bench, much better often than when they start.

But, not only that, projectivity would also explain Ben's lapses on defense. See, he gets caught up in projectivity while on defense. He starts being projective while watching the other team with the ball and, when what they are doing ceases to comport with the flow that he sees as having been developed, he gets lost, because he is where they should be instead of where they are.

Man, that EarlJam is something, ain't he. ;)

Projectivity sounds like a nice excuse in this case for a player who is just lazy and disinterested (with regard to defense). Gordon's a really good scorer (when he wants to be) and really mediocre/bad at most everything else. Projectivity may apply to some players, but I don't think Gordon is an example of this.

[juise]

Chris has 6 assists in the first half of tonight's game and the Bulls lead Portland 48-41 at the break.

[greybeard]

Projectivity sounds like a nice excuse in this case for a player who is just lazy and disinterested (with regard to defense). Gordon's a really good scorer (when he wants to be) and really mediocre/bad at most everything else. Projectivity may apply to some players, but I don't think Gordon is an example of this.

You'd have to speak to EarlJam about this; projectivity sounds like a pretty shakey proposition to me. You could find him as soon as he reconnects from his, er, journey. See his thread on Off-Topic board denominated "acid." :o

[JBDuke]

I think that's certainly a part of it. I think there are two other big factors going on here as well:

1. Moving Gordon to the bench forces Deng to become more involved early in the game. Gordon can be a dominating presence in the offense (for good or for bad), so with Gordon and Deng starting, Deng can sometimes disappear early. With Gordon on the bench to start, Deng becomes the primary option (and Hinrich takes a more prominent role as well).
2. Moving Gordon to the bench provides Gordon more incentive to be focused. He apparently has a bit of a tendency to get complacent. By bringing Gordon off the bench, you can keep him motivated.

I think your first point is a big one. Deng is forced to step it up. Also, I wonder if coming off the bench means Gordon spends more time on the court facing the opponent's second string, where his defensive liabilities won't be as badly exposed. Meanwhile, he gives great scoring punch to the Bulls' reserves.

[YmoBeThere]

Deng left tonight's game with a strained Achilles...

[CDu]

You'd have to speak to EarlJam about this; projectivity sounds like a pretty shakey proposition to me. You could find him as soon as he reconnects from his, er, journey. See his thread on Off-Topic board denominated "acid." :o

Agreed. A very shaky proposition.

[greybeard]

Agreed. A very shaky proposition.

Lighten up, I made up the word and concept to have some fun. However, talking about shakey propositions, calling Ben "lazy" has to qualify big time.

[CDu]

Lighten up, I made up the word and concept to have some fun. However, talking about shakey propositions, calling Ben "lazy" has to qualify big time.

I'm not sure why you're telling me to lighten up, as I wasn't arguing with you or anything. I apologize for misinterpreting your previous post if it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. But I certainly wasn't trying to be combative - just reiterating that Gordon has some holes in his game.

And calling Gordon lazy/complacent with regard to defense (as compared to other NBA players) isn't all that shaky a proposition in my opinion. He's not lazy compared to the average human being, but that's not to whom I was comparing him.

[greybeard]

I'm not sure why you're telling me to lighten up, as I wasn't arguing with you or anything. I apologize for misinterpreting your previous post if it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. But I certainly wasn't trying to be combative - just reiterating that Gordon has some holes in his game.

And calling Gordon lazy/complacent with regard to defense (as compared to other NBA players) isn't all that shaky a proposition in my opinion. He's not lazy compared to the average human being, but that's not to whom I was comparing him.

Gordon is a pro and a damn good one. Calling him "lazy/complacent" is a misuse of those terms, as I understand them, or at least an "iffy" use of them anyway.

Except for Kobe, I think it is difficult to find a big time scorer in the league whose defense doesn't pale in comparison to his offense.

[JBDuke]

Gordon is a pro and a damn good one. Calling him "lazy/complacent" is a misuse of those terms, as I understand them, or at least an "iffy" use of them anyway.

Except for Kobe, I think it is difficult to find a big time scorer in the league whose defense doesn't pale in comparison to his offense.

Dwight Howard? Tim Duncan? Allen Iverson? Caron Butler?

A scorer that puts out less effort on the defensive end of the court certainly is nothing new to the NBA, but there are plenty of players out there that are committed to playing a more complete game.

[greybeard]

Dwight Howard? Tim Duncan? Allen Iverson? Caron Butler?

A scorer that puts out less effort on the defensive end of the court certainly is nothing new to the NBA, but there are plenty of players out there that are committed to playing a more complete game.

I knew a guy who was a much better offensive player than defensive. He wasn't lazy or complacent.

Arenas, Allen, Dirk, Nash, Amare, Rip, JJ (Duke), JJ (Hawks), Paul, Jameson, Iverson (makes off the ball steals, otherwise, feh), Duncan (never guards anybody important), Howard (ditto), Pierce, Carter, his cousin, Webber, Earl, Pete, Cousy, Sharmen, Heinsohn, Ramsey, Billy C, Elgin, about 80 percent (maybe more, maybe less) of the college all-americans for the past 40 years.

Ben is an undersized, as in significantly, shooting guard, who is on the floor to fill it up. Period. He does that, he plays. He doesn't, he doesn't. Basketball is a business. Ben takes care of business.

[SilkyJ]

Duncan (never guards anybody important)

in the west, are you kidding me? had to guard KG for 10 years. amare. dirk. elton when he's healthy. the guy whose probably #2 in the mvp race right now and is on the 1963 throwback jersey (stumbled upon it doing xmas shopping couple weeks back. $100 jersey on sale for 25 bucks...but i digress) i'm wearing right now: carlos boooooooooooooooooooooooooooozer. i could go on with people like shawn marion, al harrington, yao ming....and i'm still in the west.



Carter


WHAT?!?!?!?!?!? the guy is a perennial lazy headcase

[greybeard]

San Antonio always has a "center" who guards the other team's best big, be he a center or power forward. Always!

Carter gets paid to put on a show and does. The one year that they made a serious run, he played defense. They got no big, haven't had one for several years, and therefore cannot seriously contend. If he does his thing, and the others do theirs, they are very entertaining and good enough to make the playoffs. He brings in the fans and does his job, spectacularly well, as far as I can see.