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gw67
12-28-2007, 08:15 AM
Some thoughts on last night’s game:

• Hansbrough and Lawson are clearly two of the three best players in the ACC and Ellington is not far behind.
• The Heels will miss Frasor. He was a solid backup for Lawson and Ellington.
• Lawson is one of the handful of college players who cannot be stopped in the open court. In fact, he seemed to get by the Nevada players at will in halfcourt sets. His drives to the basket need to be disrupted by multiple players. I doubt that there are many players in the country who can effectively stop him by themselves.
• Thompson had a good offensive game and appears to be approaching the play that was expected of him.
• The Nevada backcourt was quick and had some talent but they seemed to be in love with seeing themselves dribble.
• The Nevada player who was impressive was their seven-foot center, McCoy. Besides being tall, it appeared that he ran the floor well, was bouncy, had good hands, and he was a shot blocker. The most impressive part of his game, IMO, was his good fundamentals (positioning on offense, blocking out on defense, catching the ball with two hands, keeping the ball above his head on rebounds, etc.). His putback over Thompson/Stepheson was the best I have seen this year. He was blocked out but went above the UNC player caught the ball with two hands and flushed it without committing a foul. How he was overlooked coming out of high school is beyond me (grades? Did he rob a bank?)?

gw67

Indoor66
12-28-2007, 09:23 AM
Some thoughts on last night’s game:

• Hansbrough and Lawson are clearly two of the three best players in the ACC and Ellington is not far behind.
• The Heels will miss Frasor. He was a solid backup for Lawson and Ellington.
• Lawson is one of the handful of college players who cannot be stopped in the open court. In fact, he seemed to get by the Nevada players at will in halfcourt sets. His drives to the basket need to be disrupted by multiple players. I doubt that there are many players in the country who can effectively stop him by themselves.
• Thompson had a good offensive game and appears to be approaching the play that was expected of him.
• The Nevada backcourt was quick and had some talent but they seemed to be in love with seeing themselves dribble.
• The Nevada player who was impressive was their seven-foot center, McCoy. Besides being tall, it appeared that he ran the floor well, was bouncy, had good hands, and he was a shot blocker. The most impressive part of his game, IMO, was his good fundamentals (positioning on offense, blocking out on defense, catching the ball with two hands, keeping the ball above his head on rebounds, etc.). His putback over Thompson/Stepheson was the best I have seen this year. He was blocked out but went above the UNC player caught the ball with two hands and flushed it without committing a foul. How he was overlooked coming out of high school is beyond me (grades? Did he rob a bank?)?

gw67

Lordy, Lordy, I hope we don't have to play those supermen this year! :eek:

gw67
12-28-2007, 09:47 AM
Relax indoor! I expect the Devils to beat them at CIS but it is silly not to acknowledge that the Heels have a very good team this year.

gw67

allenmurray
12-28-2007, 09:47 AM
Clearly UNC is good - however using a game against Nevada to determine just how good they are is an ineffective measuring stick.

gw67
12-28-2007, 10:08 AM
allen - I made four comments regarding the Heels and their play last night. Do you disagree with any of them? Clearly, last night's game confirmed my overall thoughts on Hansbrough, Lawson and Ellington and they are based on several games. The three best players in the ACC this year, IMO, are Hansbrough, Singletary and Lawson. Rice is just a notch below and Ellington is with a handful of players below him, including Nelson and Singler.

IMO, the Devils and the Heels have each beaten two good teams to date. Sagarin rates the Heels opponents as being a little stronger than Devils', even including Pitt. UNC and Duke are both very good teams and appear to me to be head and shoulders above the rest of the ACC.

gw67

sandinmyshoes
12-28-2007, 10:25 AM
Some of the reactions to gw67's post seem almost like people are trying to cover-up their fear of UNC. And we should be afraid, in a minor sense. Not because we can't beat them, we can, but because they can beat us. So that has to be respected. Either one of these teams could, if things rolled their way, sweep the other.

As for the Nevada game, I think the most important event in that game was Frasor's injury. Not just because of what he does on the stat sheet or as a team leader or whatever, but because Lawson has been turning into a scary nuisance when he's playing defense. However, with Frasor unavailable for back up Lawson might have to tone it down to avoid extended periods of foul trouble.

I think UNC can get by with Thomas as the back up point for five to eight minutes a game, but some how the thought of him having to play the point for ten, fifteen or more minutes would scare me if I were a UNC fan.

It will be a relief if Lawson has back off on the defensive end because he was beginning to find a groove and looked as if he were enjoying it. That was beginning to worry me.

DukeBlood
12-28-2007, 11:32 AM
Some thoughts on last night’s game:
• Lawson is one of the handful of college players who cannot be stopped in the open court. In fact, he seemed to get by the Nevada players at will in halfcourt sets. His drives to the basket need to be disrupted by multiple players. I doubt that there are many players in the country who can effectively stop him by themselves.

Do you believe Nelson can slow him down? I havent watched the Heels at all this year. Barely had time to watch the Devils. D@mn work.

And I remember reading a article 2 years ago about how N. Smith and T. Lawson used to guard eachother in practice. Im sure Lawson has become better with a full year of college under his belt. But Smith is a option.

allenmurray
12-28-2007, 12:55 PM
allen - I made four comments regarding the Heels and their play last night. Do you disagree with any of them? Clearly, last night's game confirmed my overall thoughts on Hansbrough, Lawson and Ellington and they are based on several games. The three best players in the ACC this year, IMO, are Hansbrough, Singletary and Lawson. Rice is just a notch below and Ellington is with a handful of players below him, including Nelson and Singler.

IMO, the Devils and the Heels have each beaten two good teams to date. Sagarin rates the Heels opponents as being a little stronger than Devils', even including Pitt. UNC and Duke are both very good teams and appear to me to be head and shoulders above the rest of the ACC.

gw67


You titled the thread UNC - Nevada, now you say comments are based on multiple games. I don't disagree with your comments at all - perhaps I take issue with your thread title. My point is that the UNC - Nevada game isn't sufficient evidence to back up your points - and you said nothing else to indicate your points were a season long perspective. The tread title indicates your commetns are about that game. When you title a thread as to a particular game you I dn' think it is fairl to make generalizationa about a team on

gw67
12-28-2007, 01:10 PM
For Allen and others, the following is not based on one game and is in response to a question by DukeBlood:

Lawson is outstanding in the open court after a steal or rebound that result in a fast break. He is very fast with the ball and is quick and strong when he gets near the basket. To reduce these opportunities, the Devils need to take care of the ball and limit turnovers. They also need to get back quickly on defense after a missed shot and to challenge Lawson away from the basket if he has the ball on a fast break. In the UNC’s halfcourt offense, part of the problem with Lawson is taken care of by Coach Williams. Rather than a lot of one-on-one play by Lawson, the Heels like to work the ball down low or to Ellington on the wing. Once he gives up the ball, the Devils need to try to deny him the ball. When he has the ball in the halfcourt, I would back off and tempt him to shoot a jump shot. If he decides to drive to the basket all you can do is provide help defense and hope that he doesn’t drive deep for either a layup or pass off to one of the bigs.

The real problem with the Heels, IMO, is that they have three offensive threats. IMO, Hansbrough and Lawson will likely get their points and you just try your best to make it difficult for them. The player that I would concentrate on stopping would be Ellington. A combination of Henderson and Scheyer might be able to keep him from shooting open jumpers. You can also use the “Wish Upon A Star” defense and count on one or more of their top players to have an off night.

Luckily, the Devils are a more balanced team and they should be able to score on the Heels. I’m really looking forward to the games on February 6th and March 8th.

gw67

crimsonandblue
12-28-2007, 02:57 PM
I'm confused gw67. First you start a thread about a particular game, then you begin talking about matters that are at best tangential to the subject of the original post. What is this? A conversation?!!?!!?!??

bird
12-28-2007, 03:14 PM
allen - I made four comments regarding the Heels and their play last night. Do you disagree with any of them? Clearly, last night's game confirmed my overall thoughts on Hansbrough, Lawson and Ellington and they are based on several games. The three best players in the ACC this year, IMO, are Hansbrough, Singletary and Lawson. Rice is just a notch below and Ellington is with a handful of players below him, including Nelson and Singler.

IMO, the Devils and the Heels have each beaten two good teams to date. Sagarin rates the Heels opponents as being a little stronger than Devils', even including Pitt. UNC and Duke are both very good teams and appear to me to be head and shoulders above the rest of the ACC.

gw67


To speak a heresy: I like Ellington's game.

lavell12
12-28-2007, 03:15 PM
I think the Heels starting five is strong, but besides Green their bench is really weak. Thompson and Stephenson haven't stept up their games either. Its also hard to judge UNC since they have been playing cupcakes every game.

Patrick Yates
12-28-2007, 03:21 PM
For Allen and others, the following is not based on one game and is in response to a question by DukeBlood:

Lawson is outstanding in the open court after a steal or rebound that result in a fast break. He is very fast with the ball and is quick and strong when he gets near the basket. To reduce these opportunities, the Devils need to take care of the ball and limit turnovers. They also need to get back quickly on defense after a missed shot and to challenge Lawson away from the basket if he has the ball on a fast break. In the UNC’s halfcourt offense, part of the problem with Lawson is taken care of by Coach Williams. Rather than a lot of one-on-one play by Lawson, the Heels like to work the ball down low or to Ellington on the wing. Once he gives up the ball, the Devils need to try to deny him the ball. When he has the ball in the halfcourt, I would back off and tempt him to shoot a jump shot. If he decides to drive to the basket all you can do is provide help defense and hope that he doesn’t drive deep for either a layup or pass off to one of the bigs.

The real problem with the Heels, IMO, is that they have three offensive threats. IMO, Hansbrough and Lawson will likely get their points and you just try your best to make it difficult for them. The player that I would concentrate on stopping would be Ellington. A combination of Henderson and Scheyer might be able to keep him from shooting open jumpers. You can also use the “Wish Upon A Star” defense and count on one or more of their top players to have an off night.

Luckily, the Devils are a more balanced team and they should be able to score on the Heels. I’m really looking forward to the games on February 6th and March 8th.

gw67

I agree in principle to your plan re: Lawson and Hans. Personally, I think we Dukies need to bite the bullet and let Paulus guard Lawson. It is not ideal, but, really, now that Frasor is out who does Paulus guard? Ellington, Ginyard, and Green are too big and athletic for Paulus to guard. He can body up Lawson and try to prevent any outside shots. Lawson will blow by him, but we can collapse once that happens.

I would put Nelson on Ellington. I think Nelson can shut Ellington down. Now that Frasor is down, UNC has few 3pt threats outside of Ellington. I would try to shut him down completely, which could disrupt their O. And I mean Nelson should apply the JJ-Reddick defense, as in stay with Ellington no matter what else is going on. We will need Hendo and Scheyer to guard Ginyard and Green. Nelson can also, but that would be a huge waste. He should guard no one but Ellington or Lawson, when Ellington is out of the game.

When Lawson penetrates, and, he WILL, Duke needs to collapse. This will restrict shooting and passing lanes. This is only possible if Lawson does not have a release valve on the perimeter. Nelson locking down Ellington will shut off the release valve. Every other defender will be free to collapse to the ball. UNC will still score, but I think this gives us a solid chance to beat UNC, which is going to be hard, no matter what.

Patrick Yates

gw67
12-28-2007, 03:33 PM
Good to hear from you c&b. Kansas has played well to date and you guys seem to be the real deal. You appear to have size, speed, depth, defense and outside shooting. The Jayhawks have balanced scoring like the Devils and may be one of the teams in the country who could potentially beat the Heels at a neutral site.

I mentioned earlier that there are very few players who could play Lawson head-to-head. I know Robinson has the rep for defense but based on the one time I've seen Kansas play, Chalmers looked like your best player at both ends and probably capable of playing Lawson.

Sagarin considers the Big 12 to be about equal to the ACC this year and behind the Pac 10. Who do you see as your biggest competition? Texas? Missouri (just joking)?

gw67

dw0827
12-28-2007, 06:04 PM
I live about 30 miles away from KU . . . I watch them a lot. Not a fan, though, even though I sent two daughters there . . .

But I don't think they can handle TH. KU looks alot like Duke . . . strong guards and wings but can be beaten inside. TH would kill them.

But then, I'm kinda afraid TH may kill us, too.

dukestheheat
12-28-2007, 06:19 PM
ok.

UNC is a major force this year, no doubt about it.

Hansbrough is virtually unstoppable and the rest of their front line is GREAT. Lawson is ready for the pros right now (GO PRO LAWSON) and yes, he is unstoppable in the open court.

Our game versus Carolina is going to come down to: defense, free throw shooting, and at least keeping Kyle Singler IN the game so he can be competitive versus Carolina's inside players and so that he can contribute.

I agree with gw67, again, in that this year we will split with the Holes, with Duke winning in Cameron.

I still have one year of college eligibility left for Duke so I'm coming off of the bench to help us win that game. Word. And I do simply detest the hated Holes, and their holy fans. I grew up here in North Carolina surrounded by so many of them it makes a man sick, sick, sick I tell you.

dth.

Bob Green
12-29-2007, 05:45 AM
I think the Heels starting five is strong, but besides Green their bench is really weak. Thompson and Stephenson haven't stept (sic) up their games either. Its also hard to judge UNC since they have been playing cupcakes every game.

Carolina has a very good team and to argue otherwise is delusional. Duke and Carolina have played one common opponent so far this season - Davidson. Duke won by six and Carolina won by four so the whole "cupcakes every game" argument seems pointless unless your willing to say Duke played a cupcake and won by six points.

We will see Carolina up close and personal on February 6, 2008. IMO, we take two out of three against the Heels this year.

captmojo
12-29-2007, 01:22 PM
I ain't afraid a' no hole! :cool:

Start Smith on Lawsun. He should know him best. If not effective, move through the line-up until you have the right man to keep him outside. It's a long way off but I think the holes are gonna be lookin' at a lotta zone on Feb 6th.

dw0827
12-29-2007, 02:03 PM
If we play a lot of zone, we are going to get killed. First, it takes us out of our best defense. Second, its going to be hard enough to rebound against them and playing zone will just make it worse. Third, and most important, playing zone is like waving a white flag and saying "We surrender. We can't compete."

Nope, we go after them balls to the wall. May the best team win.

dukestheheat
12-29-2007, 02:29 PM
captmojo,

I AGREE with Smith on Lawson. Only guy on Duke that has a chance to slow him; can't stop Lawson, but if we can slow him, we will be more competitive. If he runs with abandon like he wants to do he is deadly.

dth.

JasonEvans
12-30-2007, 06:17 AM
I AGREE with Smith on Lawson. Only guy on Duke that has a chance to slow him; can't stop Lawson, but if we can slow him, we will be more competitive. If he runs with abandon like he wants to do he is deadly.


The notion that Duke would change its starting lineup or radically alter the minute distribution at PG is ludicrous. Coach K does not react to other teams, he believes in forcing them to react to us. Our junior starting Pg is not going to get all-but benched for a freshman for one game because the opposing PG is extremely quick with the ball. It just is not going to happen.

Also, while I think Lawson is a heck of a player, it is worth pointing out that it is not like he has been some unstoppable Duke-killer in the past. Last year he had 12 points and 5 assists against us in the Dean Dome game and 15 and 4 in the game at Duke. Those are nice numbers but it is not like he massacred Paulus and Duke last season.

--Jason "Duke will be Duke and if Carolina whups us -- so be it" Evans

Carlos
12-30-2007, 05:25 PM
captmojo,

I AGREE with Smith on Lawson. Only guy on Duke that has a chance to slow him; can't stop Lawson, but if we can slow him, we will be more competitive. If he runs with abandon like he wants to do he is deadly.

dth.

Disagree - Demarcus is a better defender and would be a better matchup on Lawson.