Why don't we recruit this guy

[lavell12]

http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/viewprospect.asp?Sport=2&pr_key=45378

He isn't great but we need a big man and he is from NC also.

[Lord Ash]

Because he is 6'8 215? That is a SKINNY guy. Lance and Kyle are 220.

[jimsumner]

Umm, let's see, shall we?

Because he's not as good as what Duke already has?

Because that valuable scholarship would be better used on someone from a much deeper and talented Class of '09?

Because he doesn't fill a need?

Because the Duke staff has seen him and isn't interested in recruiting him?

Because the Duke coaching staff is hard at work evaluating and recruiting eight or ten players from the Class of '09 who are as good or better than what Duke already has, do fill a need, and would justify a scholarship?

All of the above?

I'm assuming that the original poster knows that the young man has the academic qualifications to both get into Duke and take advantage of Duke's academic offerings, that he is coachable, that he has no personality issues.

I don't know the answer to this last group of questions because before five minutes I had never heard of him. He's just a name on a list. Lots of names on lists end up on message-board-threads. But as a general rule, Mike Krzyzewski and his staff don't spend a lot of time making recruiting priorities based on this sort of thing.

I realize this may seem kind of mean and I don't aim to be mean. But these kind of threads are just so silly.

[JBDuke]

...I realize this may seem kind of mean and I don't aim to be mean. But these kind of threads are just so silly.

Doesn't seem mean to me at all - just a good dose of reality.

[dukie8]

Umm, let's see, shall we?

Because he's not as good as what Duke already has?

Because that valuable scholarship would be better used on someone from a much deeper and talented Class of '09?

Because he doesn't fill a need?

Because the Duke staff has seen him and isn't interested in recruiting him?

Because the Duke coaching staff is hard at work evaluating and recruiting eight or ten players from the Class of '09 who are as good or better than what Duke already has, do fill a need, and would justify a scholarship?

All of the above?

I'm assuming that the original poster knows that the young man has the academic qualifications to both get into Duke and take advantage of Duke's academic offerings, that he is coachable, that he has no personality issues.

I don't know the answer to this last group of questions because before five minutes I had never heard of him. He's just a name on a list. Lots of names on lists end up on message-board-threads. But as a general rule, Mike Krzyzewski and his staff don't spend a lot of time making recruiting priorities based on this sort of thing.

I realize this may seem kind of mean and I don't aim to be mean. But these kind of threads are just so silly.

i have no idea what the answers are to a lot of your questions but he clearly could fill a need on this team. we have little inside presence and he looked like shaq in his prime against us. for all i know he had 700 on his sats and was a non-starter due to academics but we could use his heft in a big way this year.

[Karl Beem]

heft? 215?
:confused:

[dukie8]

heft? 215?
:confused:

um, that would be at least 250.

[Troublemaker]

um, that would be at least 250.

Dude, click on the link. (Hint: we're not discussing Dejuan Blair).

[Troublemaker]

Doesn't seem mean to me at all - just a good dose of reality.

Agreed. Sumner needs to be more mean, if anything.

[dukie8]

Dude, click on the link. (Hint: we're not discussing Dejuan Blair).

my bad. i still have him stuck in my mind after that performance.

[Troublemaker]

my bad. i still have him stuck in my mind after that performance.

He really was impressive and I did drool over the idea of him in a Duke uniform.

[Huh?]

cause Patterson is a diploma factory.

[Patrick Yates]

Umm, let's see, shall we?

Because he's not as good as what Duke already has?

Because that valuable scholarship would be better used on someone from a much deeper and talented Class of '09?




I hate to burst bubbles, but the 09 class is no great shakes. It is an overwhelmingly mediocre class. It is fortunate to come after an 08 class that was really bad (this is magnified by the fact that it followed two of the best years in a couple of decades). Had the 08 class not existed, and the 09 class were to magically follow the 07 class, people would still be talking about the drop off.

The main difference between the 09 and 08 class is that there are a few more top players in the 09 class as opposed to the 08 class, where there may be no truly "elite" players. Monroe has potential, but he really has to work to get to that level. As has been widely mentioned, it is unlikely that Monroe would've been in the top 10 (maybe top 15) of the 07 class.

But don't pin your hopes on some fantasy that the 09 class is loaded. It has a few more elite players than 08, but, like 08, after those few the drop off is precipitous. Prepstars, one of the more honest services in my opinion, has been beating this drum for a while. It is not a bad class, but it is nothing special. It is fan-freaking-tastic compared to 08, but 09 is not going to produce a river of pros immediately.

What made 07 so special is the depth. There are kids in the 15-30 range who would be top 15-10 in most years. Look at Blair, a kid who might be in the 15 or so range this year. Believe it or not, his ranking at 40ish in 07, while low, is not a huge mistake. That class was loaded.

So, for everyone hoping that Duke is loading up for bear in the 09 class, be warned, there are no bears out there. There are a few bigs that are quasi-elite, but each of the top kids has a flaw, and most of them are not "Duke" kids for a variety of reasons.

The Echenque (sp?) looks very promising, but he is ranked in the 30-40 range in an average class. He is not, and has not, dominated at any level. He does play with one of the better seniors in the 08 class, for what that is worth, so that may be a false negative. I like his size and overall game cause Duke needs that bad. But he is no Patterson or Monroe (probably equivalent talents given the disparity in classes) yet. He has 2 years, so we will see.

But, I am getting tired of this. When we miss on a recruit (ie, low post banger), several posters merely point to the next class like it is some sort of panacea. Well, it might not be. The 09 class is not "much deeper" than the 08 class. It is just as shallow, but with a few more studs than the lusterless 08ers. Beyond that, none of the bigs we are pursuing have given any indication that they favor Duke AT ALL. Not that that has meant much lately.

Secondly, and far more depressing, is the fact that should we get Echenque (who would fit in and help tremendously, no doubt), he would most likely arrive after the Henderson-Singler Era ends. Both look like they need one more year, and next year's draft is weak. Hendo, the closest to being ready, is hurt this year by fantastic depth at the guard this year. I'll take Hendo over anyone not named Eric Gordon (and maybe Derrick Rose), but it will be a real excrement shoot as to Hendo's draft postion.

Next year, he would challenge for Number 1. Same with Singler, who may want to leave before the low-post-a-palooza lottery featuring the 09 class bigs.

Regardless, I see very little chance of both still being here when the 09 class arrives on Campus. With the team we have, and the kids comming back/comming in, next year could be awesome. But I still se a hole in the post. The 09 class, overrated though it may be, may be too little too late for Duke.

Patrick Yates

[ugadevil]

I don't claim to follow recruiting very closely, but this seems a little ridiculous. I'll keep an eye on the people that Duke recruits and read the links about them when it gets close to signing day, but the class of '09? It seems crazy to me that it's already been decided that the class of 2009 isn't going to be very good. It's almost 2 years before any of those people even play a college game! Sure, you can tell that there are good players and people who have potential but I just think it's too early to project who's going to be great or who's going to be impact freshman or the star of 2009.

[jimsumner]

Patrick's opinion on the class of '09 is a distinctly minority one, one not shared by any recruiting expert known to me. I do know for a fact that the Duke coaching staff made a conscious decision to go easy on the class of '08 and heavy on the class of '09 because, in their collective opinion, the class of '09 is substantially deeper and better than the class of '08.

I'll take their word for it.

[Bob Green]

I hate to burst bubbles, but the 09 class is no great shakes. It is an overwhelmingly mediocre class. It is fortunate to come after an 08 class that was really bad...

Do you have a link to an article by a recruiting guru that supports your statement? Everything I've read talks about how loaded is the 09 class.


So, for everyone hoping that Duke is loading up for bear in the 09 class, be warned, there are no bears out there. There are a few bigs that are quasi-elite, but each of the top kids has a flaw, and most of them are not "Duke" kids for a variety of reasons.

Greg Echenique, DeShawn Painter, and Erik Murphy are the names recruiting sites are throwing around inconjunction with Duke. All three are talented in different ways. Echenique is a big/wide body at 6'9" 255 lbs. He has recorded several double-doubles this year and grabbed 17 rebounds with nine points in the championship game of the recently completed City of Palms Classic. DeShawn Painter is 6'8" and likes to run the court. Painter is ranked in the Top 10 of the Class of 09. Erik Murphy is 6"10" with polished offensive skills. His father played in the NBA so like Gerald Henderson and Nolan Smith he has strong bloodlines. Another name I've seen occasionally associated with Duke is DaShonte Riley out of Detroit Country Day High School.


The Echenque (sp?) looks very promising, but he is ranked in the 30-40 range in an average class. He is not, and has not, dominated at any level.

Echenique has two years of High School left and he is already dominating the boards against the highest level of competition in the United States. His father was a professional basketball player in Venezuela so Greg has strong bloodlines.


Secondly, and far more depressing, is the fact that should we get Echenque (sic) (who would fit in and help tremendously, no doubt), he would most likely arrive after the Henderson-Singler Era ends...I see very little chance of both still being here when the 09 class arrives on Campus. With the team we have, and the kids comming back/comming in, next year could be awesome. But I still se (sic) a hole in the post. The 09 class, overrated though it may be, may be too little too late for Duke.

Patrick Yates

It is waaaaaay too early to be projecting the departure of Singler. He could leave early or stay all four years. No one on this board knows what he will do and it is premature to state that he will most likely be gone when the 09 class arrives on Campus.

And don't forget about the Class of 2008 with Elliot Williams and Olek Czyz. Williams is a super talented wing who will step in and immediately compete for a starting position. Czyz is unpolished but who knows how he will develop? He scored 35 points and went 7-9 from the free throw line in a game Friday night. I'll close with the "P" word - potential!

Edit: Scout.com Class of 2009 Top 100 (http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=9&c=4&cfg=bb&pid=88&yr=2009)

DeShawn Painter - 8
DaShonte Riley - 16
Greg Echenique - 37
Erik Murphy - 41

These four are all forward/centers. Of course Duke is looking hard at guards/wings as well with Kenny Boynton being a priority.

[duketaylor]

Duke is heavily involved with both and want to get both as they complement one another. As Duke already has two sons of former NBA'ers on the squad, I'd imagine Murphy is highly interested (and his dad), plus, at some point, K being Olympic coach will pay dividends. There is some serious talent in the '09 class at the 4 and 5 positions and Duke thinks they're in a good position to get that next BIG or two.
Happy Holidays to ALL!! Ozzie, maybe a move to Derm in our future?!!!

[Patrick Yates]

Duke is heavily involved with both and want to get both as they complement one another. As Duke already has two sons of former NBA'ers on the squad, I'd imagine Murphy is highly interested (and his dad), plus, at some point, K being Olympic coach will pay dividends. There is some serious talent in the '09 class at the 4 and 5 positions and Duke thinks they're in a good position to get that next BIG or two.
Happy Holidays to ALL!! Ozzie, maybe a move to Derm in our future?!!!

First, of all the 4 that Jim listed above, 3 fall into the tall (or tallish) skinny type. Murphy and Painter, good though they may be, are combo forwards in the Singler - Thomas mold. Only Echenique is the low post bruiser type. DaShonte is a tall, skinny shot-blocker. A great help, but hardly a low post bruiser.

And there are a few problems with Murphy. He is reportedly a huge Florida lean (but Monroe was a Duke lean, so whatever). Further, his dad starred at Boston College, now a conference rival. I will be surprised if we get him, and wouldn't really consider it a miss. Getting him would be far more surprising than not getting him.

As for Echenique, he fits a need, as my first post stated. K has offered, and I assume we will be in the mix. But there are no rumors about his intentions. And given his ranking, it will be an interesting ride. Is he developing into a future stud who will climb the rankings? Or is his current ranking a result of him being bigger sooner than his peers without the skills to be a star? Only time will tell.

And lay off. I never said 09 was bad. I said it wasn't great, and it isn't. Compared to the 08 class, some girls' classes look decent. Being better than 08 is darning with faint praise, and we ALL know it. If someone has seen an article saying that 09 is special, please, post it.

And as for Singler, we all know that he is good. Real good. All he needs is a little more muscle. He would be ready to get drafted high this year, but next year's weak draft will look enticing. I want him to stay four years, and I hope he does. But it would be lunacy to count on him beyond next season, should he be here that long. Lunacy.

Patrick Yates

[jimsumner]

Patrick,

First, Jim didn't list anybody. Chuck did. But he listed the right people.

Second. The original point under discussion was whether Duke needed to go after a second-tier 4/5 from the class of '08. I indicated that the class of '09was deeper than the class of '08 in big men and that Duke's available scholarships would be better used by waiting for '09.

You interjected "But, I am getting tired of this. When we miss on a recruit (ie, low post banger), several posters merely point to the next class like it is some sort of panacea." You then tried to broaden the discussion to include the merits of the class of '09 to the class of '07 and '06. Not to put too fine a point on it, but this tangent has no relevance to the original question.

Do you disagree with the point that waiting for '09 makes sense? It's hard to tell.

"but the 09 class is no great shakes. It is an overwhelmingly mediocre class."

"it is fortunate to come after an 08 class that was really bad."

"It is fan-freaking-tastic compared to 08."

"The 09 class is not "much deeper" than the 08 class. It is just as shallow, but with a few more studs than the lusterless 08ers."

"I never said 09 was bad. I said it wasn't great, and it isn't. Compared to the 08 class, some girls' classes look decent. Being better than 08 is darning with faint praise, and we ALL know it."

Seems like you agree with the original premise that the class of '09 is better than the class of '08. So the class of '09 isn't as good as the class of '79. So what? What's your solution? Duke's recruiting as been pretty darn successful. Duke misses a few. Is there someone in the h.s. class of '08 that has the grades and the makeup to succeed at Duke that you think Duke should recruit rather than wait for next season? If so, please tell us so. If not, what's your point?

Keep in mind that Duke has three available scholarships and that Duke has already signed one "back-up" in Olek Czyz.

FWIW, Duke is in good shape with Murphy and very good shape with Echenique. The latter, btw, has played very well this winter and is poised to move up in the rankings. By the time he graduates (in 18 months, fwiw), he projects as a top-20, maybe top-10 recruit.

[DukeBlood]

FWIW, Duke is in good shape with Murphy and very good shape with Echenique. The latter, btw, has played very well this winter and is poised to move up in the rankings. By the time he graduates (in 18 months, fwiw), he projects as a top-20, maybe top-10 recruit.

Jim

I follow recruiting fairly close, But havent heard much about being in very good shape with Echenique. Im kind of wondering where you get your sources(Watzone? Scout? or Your own?)

The help would be appreciated. I would look into your sources(if its Watzone or whatever)

[jimsumner]

Reliable and multiple sources have indicated to me that Duke has made Echenique a priority target. This doesn't mean he's a lock to go to Duke, doesn't even mean Duke is in the lead. B. Wright and Monroe were priority targets. Then, again so were Singler, Henderson, Brand, Jason Williams, Shelden Williams, Elliott Williams, Weldon Williams (excuse me, I got off on a tangent here :).)

Duke has focused on Echenique at the 5 and stands to make his short list.

[Grey Devil]

.... Then, again so were Singler, Henderson, Brand, Jason Williams, Shelden Williams, Elliott Williams, Weldon Williams (excuse me, I got off on a tangent here :).)


....to say nothing of Gerald Henderson, David Henderson and Phil Henderson! (Sorry, Harry isn't on any list, although I understand he could be a monster on the boards.) ;)

Grey Devil

[DukeBlood]

Reliable and multiple sources have indicated to me that Duke has made Echenique a priority target. This doesn't mean he's a lock to go to Duke, doesn't even mean Duke is in the lead. B. Wright and Monroe were priority targets. Then, again so were Singler, Henderson, Brand, Jason Williams, Shelden Williams, Elliott Williams, Weldon Williams (excuse me, I got off on a tangent here :).)

Duke has focused on Echenique at the 5 and stands to make his short list.

Alright, Thanks for the info.

I just figured you subscribed to Watzone, or Scout. I know you didnt mean he is a lock. But if you have heard we are in real good shape with him, that makes me feel a little more comfortable.

Also, Im not quite sure who said Elliot Williams will step in right away and compete for a starting job.. But is he THAT good where theres a good chance he will take time away from Greg Paulus, Nolan Smith, Gerald Henderson or Jon Scheyer?

Just looked it up, It was Bob Green who said that.

So. Is he THAT good?

[jimsumner]

I'm not going to post anyone's premium info here or anywhere else. My info comes from other sources.

Mark will be glad to give DBR readers subscription info and he does have some detailed and informative info on Duke recruiting.

I simply wanted to counter the implication that Duke was just one of a large number of schools involved with GE. We all know that Duke recruits very selectively and this has been the source of considerable discussion, here and elsewhere.

The down side of this is that when Duke misses target A, there may be a target B, but probably not a target C, D, or E. The up side is that when Duke decides to go after a target, Duke is able to focus considerable resources on that target, one of which is the likelihood that we-want-you frequently is a more compelling come on than we-want-a-bunch-of-folks-and-you're-among-them, so-make-up-your-mind.

[Bob Green]

Also, Im not quite sure who said Elliot Williams will step in right away and compete for a starting job.. But is he THAT good where theres a good chance he will take time away from Greg Paulus, Nolan Smith, Gerald Henderson or Jon Scheyer?

Just looked it up, It was Bob Green who said that.

So. Is he THAT good?

Everything I've read on the Internet indicates that he is that good. With DeMarcus Nelson graduating, a spot in the starting line-up will open. The natural candidate to fill that spot will be Jon Scheyer. However, IMO, Elliot Williams will be in the mix. Let me reiterate that Elliot Willimas will compete for a starting job. I didn't say he would start. I'm sure Taylor King will be competing hard for that starting job or 6th Man role as well. As will Nolan Smith. Isn't great to be able to have this discussion?

[DukeBlood]

Everything I've read on the Internet indicates that he is that good. With DeMarcus Nelson graduating, a spot in the starting line-up will open. The natural candidate to fill that spot will be Jon Scheyer. However, IMO, Elliot Williams will be in the mix. Let me reiterate that Elliot Willimas will compete for a starting job. I didn't say he would start. I'm sure Taylor King will be competing hard for that starting job or 6th Man role as well. As will Nolan Smith. Isn't great to be able to have this discussion?

Yeah, Im excited about it as well.

I hope he is as good as you believe is. I seen he is VERY athletic. The 2nd most athletic player on the team next year behind Henderson. I have little reason to doubt he will compete next year for some time.. but not quite sure about competing for starting roll or even 6th man.

And I agree its wonderful to be having this discussion.

Bob, What about Olek? Will he seem any time as a FR?

[Jumbo]

In another thread, you said sometihng about how Duke has to have a rugged inside player along the lines of Williams, Boozer and Brand. I responded to you, and have yet to hear back. So, I'm going to post to the same response here. If your going to make proncouncements, you need to argue in good faith and respond when someone provides a counter-argument. So, here's another opportunity.

My original response:

"I don't have the stamina to read through this whole thread at the moment. But please tell me that someone has reminded Mr. Yates that Duke managed to win back-to-back national titles without anything resembling that type of player. In fact, for most of K's career, the stereotypical Duke big man was "tall, lanky white dude who plays inside-out."

PY, did you just forget about the pre-Brand era, or were you not following Duke back then?"

[Jumbo]

Everything I've read on the Internet indicates that he is that good. With DeMarcus Nelson graduating, a spot in the starting line-up will open. The natural candidate to fill that spot will be Jon Scheyer. However, IMO, Elliot Williams will be in the mix. Let me reiterate that Elliot Willimas will compete for a starting job. I didn't say he would start. I'm sure Taylor King will be competing hard for that starting job or 6th Man role as well. As will Nolan Smith. Isn't great to be able to have this discussion?

I don't really want to look ahead to next year, because I'm so excited about this year. That said, assuming there is no attrition, I think it's pretty safe to say the starting perimeter trio would be Paulus-Scheyer-Henderson. I know Williams is athletic, but he's slender, and I'm not sure he'll be ready to crack major minutes right away. Remember, Henderson didn't start last year. Scheyer did, but one of those two guys had to, given the lack of returning guards. Next year, Duke should have a senior point guard who will be a four year starter, and two junior wings who have each started and played major minutes. It's hard to imagine Williams bypassing either of them. Throw in the fact that an improved Nolan Smith could push for minutes alongside Paulus and not just behind him, and that Marty Pocius will be back as a fourth-year junior, and the backcourt figures to be loaded, with or without immediate contributions from Williams.

[Bob Green]

Bob, What about Olek? Will he seem any time as a FR?

It is very hard to gain a true perspective of a player's skill level based on internet articles. Living in Japan doesn't afford me the opportunity to watch any high school ball and YouTube clips are pretty much a waste of time. However, the one adjective I would use to describe Czyz is inconsistent. He went 1-12 from the floor, earlier this year, in a matchup against Luke Babbit. Recently, he was ejected from a game for receiving two technical fouls:

http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071224/PREPSPORTS/712240330/1050

In two games since he was ejected, he has scored 35 and 20 points. A nice skill he has is the ability to shoot free throws. He was 7-9 in the 35 point game and 7-7 in the 20 point game.

[SilkyJ]

Isn't great to be able to have this discussion?

yes sir it is, but i am skeptical about e williams competing for starting time. i doubt he starts even 1 game next year, and doubt he plays more than 10mpg if G-money sticks around...don't forget marty plays there too and will be a redshirt junior. (he is redshirting, right?)

[Bob Green]

Isn't great to be able to have this discussion?


yes sir it is, but i am skeptical about e williams competing for starting time. i doubt he starts even 1 game next year, and doubt he plays more than 10mpg if G-money sticks around...don't forget marty plays there too and will be a redshirt junior. (he is redshirting, right?)

You may be right, but this time last year how many of us thought that Taylor King would be averaging 14.3 mpg/10.6 ppg and Nolan Smith 15.5 mpg/5.6 ppg through 11 games?

[kydevil]

You may be right, but this time last year how many of us thought that Taylor King would be averaging 14.3 mpg/10.6 ppg and Nolan Smith 15.5 mpg/5.6 ppg through 11 games?

None, but I think we all love it!:D

[Waynne]

In another thread, you said sometihng about how Duke has to have a rugged inside player along the lines of Williams, Boozer and Brand. I responded to you, and have yet to hear back. So, I'm going to post to the same response here. If your going to make proncouncements, you need to argue in good faith and respond when someone provides a counter-argument. So, here's another opportunity.

My original response:

"I don't have the stamina to read through this whole thread at the moment. But please tell me that someone has reminded Mr. Yates that Duke managed to win back-to-back national titles without anything resembling that type of player. In fact, for most of K's career, the stereotypical Duke big man was "tall, lanky white dude who plays inside-out."

PY, did you just forget about the pre-Brand era, or were you not following Duke back then?"

I can't speak for Mr. Yates, but Laettner played a monster inside game for those 2 NC teams. He was a tall, lanky white dude who played inside-out, but he also was a nasty banger on the boards who utilized his superior size (6'10", 230 lbs.) and some very nice inside moves to pile up a ton of rebounds and a lot of points in the low post. While his game was very different than Williams', Boozer's or Brand's, he certainly provided a superb low post presence on those teams.

The only player on this year's team who approaches his low post skills is Singler, who is smaller than Christian and who is just learning how to play against elite competition. While we surely have one of the best perimeter teams in the country, I too think we need another rugged inside player along the lines of Laettner, Boozer, et al, to truly have a chance of going all the way. Yes, players like that are very hard to get, but we have gotten them in the past and will do so again. We already have a very good start with Singler.