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Slant
12-21-2007, 09:18 AM
What grade would you assign Coach K for his coaching in the Pit game?

I give him a C.

Didn't think Coach K was up to his usual standards for a big game. He stuck with Scheyer too long with a bad shooting night, and should have given more time to King to work his magic when we needed some offense in the 2nd half.

And Paulus just seemed to disappear after that early 2nd half timeout when Coach K ripped the team. During key stretches of the 2nd half when we struggled offensively, Paulus wasn't even on the floor to run the show. Seemed like Henderson ran it and we looked like a one-on-one team with no flow.

I do not think Coach K did his usual good job making adjustments in the 2nd half.

AtlDuke72
12-21-2007, 09:22 AM
What grad ould you assign Coach K for his coaching in the Pit game?

I give him a C.

Didn't think Coach K was up to his usual standards for a big game. He stuck with Scheyer too long with a bad shooting night, and should have given more time to King to work his magic when we needed some offense in the 2nd half.

And Paulus just seemed to disappear after that early 2nd half timeout when Coach k ripped the team. During key stretches of the 2nd half when we struggled offensively, Paulus wasn't even on the floor to run the show. Seemed like Henderson ran it and we looked like a one-on-one team with no flow.

I do not think Coach K did his usual good job making adjustments in the 2nd half.

Give me a break! If Duke shot anywhere close to its usual percentage, or made a decent percentage of free throws we win by 5-10 points. Guess you give the Coach an A then. Second guessing after the fact is not exactly a hard science.

jjasper0729
12-21-2007, 09:22 AM
I don't think you can say coach K did a bad job in the game (maybe at the end, but he didn't call the timeout that we could have used at the very end). When it gets to the nitty gritty, the players have to execute what he and the staff lay out. I think they had a good plan (as evidinced by the first half play... well... first 15 minutes). I saw this turning into the Indiana game a couple of seasons ago when the Hoosiers had one player go nuts on us, but we held the rest of the team in check and got a win out of it.

I think (for what it's worth) that it was a matter of poor execution. it seemed the team got lazy at the end of the first half and then couldn't really "turn it on" in the second half. too many fits and starts with the disruption in the flow from the whistles and the disruption by the increased defense by pitt.

I'd give him a B+. at least. one has to figure they will stress execution and playing "our game" when they return next week to get ready for cornell. also, it was probably a mistake, in hindsight, starting lance. I know he did okay in the first half, but that one dunk that rolled in in the second half, he barely got off the floor.

DUKIECB
12-21-2007, 09:25 AM
First let me say that Coach K is not above criticism. He is human and humans make mistakes. However, how do we know what his motives were for playing Scheyer all those minutes and how do we know why Paulus was largely ineffective last night?

I thought overall, K did a good job. Maybe he kept Scheyer on the floor because he was the only person who seemed to be able to get a rebound considering he almost out rebounded the rest of the team combined.

Maybe players sometimes have off nights and there is nothing a coach can say or do about it. Sometimes it is just not the coaches fault and I think last night was one of those nights.

Slant
12-21-2007, 09:28 AM
Look, if we criticize the players, we can criticize Coach K some. I just think he didn't make adjustments in the second half or put in the right player combos at critical stretches of the game.

Those are coaching elements which can be analyzed, despite the individual performance of the players.

dukestheheat
12-21-2007, 09:28 AM
yeah, many of our shooters just couldn't get them down last night; toss in a bad night at the free throw stripe and then poor ball control and very poor decisions in the second half when it comes to shooting/shot selection, and you have the loss. BUT, it was only a one point loss to a top 10 team, and it very clearly could have gone either way.

we win most of those match-ups going forward, and Duke is going to be better because of this experience.

dth.

Dukiedevil
12-21-2007, 09:28 AM
The fact that no one else could rebound probably had a lot to do with why he was in the game. He was really selling out to get the ball.

wtsnap
12-21-2007, 09:28 AM
I obviously don't post a lot but I was pretty upset there wasn't more defense on the three ball on the last play. I felt that Pitt was just going to go for the win considering they had two of their top players out and they wouldn't have had much of a chance in a second overtime.

You win some, you lose some, hopefully the whole team will learn from it.

Jeffrey
12-21-2007, 09:30 AM
What grade would you assign Coach K for his coaching in the Pit game?

I give him a C.

Didn't think Coach K was up to his usual standards for a big game. He stuck with Scheyer too long with a bad shooting night, and should have given more time to King to work his magic when we needed some offense in the 2nd half.

And Paulus just seemed to disappear after that early 2nd half timeout when Coach K ripped the team. During key stretches of the 2nd half when we struggled offensively, Paulus wasn't even on the floor to run the show. Seemed like Henderson ran it and we looked like a one-on-one team with no flow.

I do not think Coach K did his usual good job making adjustments in the 2nd half.

Hi,

I disagree with most of your statements.

I don't think we would have had a chance to win at the end of this game without Jon's play (specifically his boards & smart play). As far as his shooting, you need to let good shooters shoot and work things out. Jon will lite it up in the near future..... watch.

As for Taylor, he looked like a Freshman and was not always playing smart. We could not afford silly Freshman mistakes at the end of a very tight game.

IMO, our guys needed fired up in the 2nd half and the T.O. you referenced was handled well.

The only thing I would have liked to have seen occur (that may or may not have been said) was that when David and Nolan were sent in for D on the last possession, they should have been told only a 3 can beat us so defend against 3's.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

Jumbo
12-21-2007, 09:30 AM
I've got no problem with people grading Coach K, especially given the way people are critiquing the players. He needs to be held just as accountable. That said, it would help if people got their facts and opinions straight. For instance...


Didn't think Coach K was up to his usual standards for a big game. He stuck with Scheyer too long with a bad shooting night,
Good thing Scheyer can do other things -- like grab 12 rebounds and play awesome D. There are actually other aspects to the game besides shooting.


and should have given more time to King to work his magic when we needed some offense in the 2nd half.

King got double-digit minutes, which was more than enough time to see he couldn't be effective in this game. He didn't match up well with Pitt at all, wasn't rebounding, and couldn't get free to launch any of his "magic." And when he did shoot, he was 1-for-4.


During key stretches of the 2nd half when we struggled offensively, Paulus wasn't even on the floor to run the show. Seemed like Henderson ran it and we looked like a one-on-one team with no flow.

Paulus played 34 minutes. He came back into the game with Duke leading 44-38. He then played virtually the rest of the game, until Coach K went offense/defense with Paulus/Henderson and Smith/McClure late in the overtime period.

EarlJam
12-21-2007, 09:32 AM
Maybe players sometimes have off nights and there is nothing a coach can say or do about it. Sometimes it is just not the coaches fault and I think last night was one of those nights.

Yep.

And sometimes you just get beat. It'll happen again.

Was it the 98-99 season when we lost in Nov. or Dec. to Cinncinnati (on a last second play), then proceeded to kick the fecal matter out of everyone we played up until the fateful UConn game in April?

That season actually got a bit boring for me. We'd beat everyone we played by 20 - 30 points.

-EarlJam

Dukiedevil
12-21-2007, 09:36 AM
What grade would you assign Coach K for his coaching in the Pit game?

I give him a C.

Didn't think Coach K was up to his usual standards for a big game. He stuck with Scheyer too long with a bad shooting night, and should have given more time to King to work his magic when we needed some offense in the 2nd half.

And Paulus just seemed to disappear after that early 2nd half timeout when Coach K ripped the team. During key stretches of the 2nd half when we struggled offensively, Paulus wasn't even on the floor to run the show. Seemed like Henderson ran it and we looked like a one-on-one team with no flow.

I do not think Coach K did his usual good job making adjustments in the 2nd half.

Thought he did fine overall. I don't think he got enough credit for the effective use of his bench. 8 guys got double digit minutes and he handles the foul trouble situations fantastically.

I would have liked to have seen our point guards get a little more involved in the game, but I don't think that had much to do with coaching. Greg's play really fell off after he caught that elbow from Singler. I wonder if he wasn't a little woozy the rest of the night. Smith was pressing a bit too much and seemed out of control. As a result our offense seemed out of synch for most of the night. The Pitt big men were REALLY overplaying the perimeter which left the easiest points coming off the dribble drive and slips to the basket. Which, as you may have noticed, is where most of our points came from. Poor execution in the second half is what cost us...

Jeffrey
12-21-2007, 09:38 AM
I obviously don't post a lot but I was pretty upset there wasn't more defense on the three ball on the last play. I felt that Pitt was just going to go for the win considering they had two of their top players out and they wouldn't have had must of a chance in a second overtime.


Hi,

Given that Coach K had the chance to instruct David & Nolan before entering the game, I was also surprised that David defended against the 3 as softly as he did. Odds were strongly in our favor during a 2nd OT.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

bhd28
12-21-2007, 09:55 AM
Hi,

Given that Coach K had the chance to instruct David & Nolan before entering the game, I was also surprised that David defended against the 3 as softly as he did. Odds were strongly in our favor during a 2nd OT.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

The common frustration I get when I see a close game with the opposing team with the ball at the end and a chance to win is the following... They go into a high screen and roll... Duke switches, leaving our '5' (be it Shelden, McRoberts, or Dave) on the opposing team's best one-on-one guard. It happens... well... a lot. Sometimes switching on everything works, but at a time like that, I think it would be better not to do so. I mean at least making their guy pass off to a second option with the clock at 2 seconds or less on the clock seems like a good idea (or at least not leaving him one-on-one with our '5'.)

Someone with more knowledge, please let me know why switching like Coach K has the guys do is a good idea at the end of a game. And then give me examples of several times it has worked.

Troublemaker
12-21-2007, 09:59 AM
Look, if we criticize the players, we can criticize Coach K some. I just think he didn't make adjustments in the second half or put in the right player combos at critical stretches of the game.

Those are coaching elements which can be analyzed, despite the individual performance of the players.

Please, those aren't "coaching elements which can be analyzed." Those are trite, surface-level complaints that are not specific enough to be meaningful at all. Go to any sports message board following a loss, and the fans there will be complaining about how the coach "didn't make adjustments"? Why? Because it's the easy, convenient complaint to make that has no depth whatsoever but allows the fans to complain about the coach because they're mad that the team just lost. Certainly Coach K can be criticized. I just don't think you are equipped to do so.

Slant
12-21-2007, 10:00 AM
Jumbo, I know where you are coming from. I, too, think Scheyer contributes in other ways. I see the points you are making and can easily agree with what you are saying.

But that doesn't mean Coach didn't have a few hiccups himself and we can't brainstorm about them. He's trying to figure out things with this team, just players are trying to figure out or adapt their games at this point in the season.

I made my points because we were really struggling offensively in the 2nd half, and really needed some buckets to answer Pitt's comeback. I am only suggesting that Coach K could have tried some different combos than Scheyer and Henderson at key stretches, as they rushed shots or had bad shot selection during our dead period offensively in the 2nd half. Maybe Paulus should have put up more shots.

And as far as King goes, Taylor got most of his minutes in the first half. He really wasn't on the floor much for a sustained period in the second half to get into a groove.

Folks, don't be so sensitive about comments on Coach K. He is not beyond reproach at any given moment. He would be the first to welcome it. He's a great coach, and I love my Coach K. But he's not a god to be worshipped - he's a man to be respected and appreciated. Of course, he knows tons more b-ball than I or any of us on this board. But, then again, one of the purposes of this board is to allow us fans a chance to provide our own spin and views on the team and its performance - for our entertainment value.

Slant
12-21-2007, 10:06 AM
Please, those aren't "coaching elements which can be analyzed." Those are trite, surface-level complaints that are not specific enough to be meaningful at all. Go to any sports message board following a loss, and the fans there will be complaining about how the coach "didn't make adjustments"? Why? Because it's the easy, convenient complaint to make that has no depth whatsoever but allows the fans to complain about the coach because they're mad that the team just lost. Certainly Coach K can be criticized. I just don't think you are equipped to do so.

Oh, Troublemaker, I see. There's some sort of litmus test to determine who is allowed to comment on Coack K?

No problem, then, if you want to censor discussion.

Classof06
12-21-2007, 10:07 AM
I'm not afraid to say when I feel Coach K didn't do a good job but I don't think Krzyzewski did much wrong last night. There were a couple things he did that I didn't agree with but I don't think Krzyzewski coached a bad game. I thought that :

1. He definitely should have played Zoubek more down the stretch when Pitt was making their run to tie it. It was clear we weren't rebounding well, Singler was having loads of trouble with Blair and we needed a big body. Zoubek ain't an all-star but I think it's the point in the season where Zoubek needs to start getting more minutes. He's not going to get better sitting on the bench.

2. We began to see some of last year's Paulus last night and I think Krzyzewski stuck with him a little too long. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming Greg for the loss, that's just shortsighted. But I feel like this team needed his leadership last night and he was nowhere to be seen in the 2nd half. I also thought he had a lot of trouble staying with Fields and when Pitt was making their run, I thought Coach should've sat Paulus for defensive purposes.

Overall, I think this is a situation where Krzyzewski, Wojo, Dawkins and Collins don't play. There are times I've felt we've lost games because of coaching but this game was lost by the players.

Jeffrey
12-21-2007, 10:09 AM
And as far as King goes, Taylor got most of his minutes in the first half. He really wasn't on the floor much for a sustained period in the second half to get into a groove.

Hi,

Taylor was out of position on D multiple times in the first half. Due to match-up issues, Pitt made him look like a Freshman at times. Excuse my redundancy but we could not afford silly Freshman mistakes at the end of a very tight game.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

burnspbesq
12-21-2007, 10:15 AM
Historically, the Duke basketball team has been much better at basketball than at rugby. That continues to be the case with this year's team. Pitt won by turning the game into rugby, where their size and strength could be the deciding factor. That's not something that can be changed in the short term (it requires a fundamental change in recruiting philosophy), and I would argue that it should not be changed, because the long-standing tradition of officiating in the ACC (unlike the Big East and Big 10) is to not allow rugby.

Jeffrey
12-21-2007, 10:16 AM
1. He definitely should have played Zoubek more down the stretch when Pitt was making their run to tie it. It was clear we weren't rebounding well, Singler was having loads of trouble with Blair and we needed a big body. Zoubek ain't an all-star but I think it's the point in the season where Zoubek needs to start getting more minutes. He's not going to get better sitting on the bench.

2. We began to see some of last year's Paulus last night and I think Krzyzewski stuck with him a little too long. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming Greg for the loss, that's just shortsighted. But I feel like this team needed his leadership last night and he was nowhere to be seen in the 2nd half. I also thought he had a lot of trouble staying with Fields and when Pitt was making their run, I thought Coach should've sat Paulus for defensive purposes.

Hi,

1. IMO, Zoubek does not currently have the footwork to match-up against Blair. IMO, Blair would have had his way with Zoubek and Coach K was wise to limit Zoubek's minutes.

2. What does benching Greg do for his confidence? He's having a great year and this just wasn't one of his better games. At the end of the game, Coach K was sub-ing Nolan for D whenever he had a chance.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

Slant
12-21-2007, 10:16 AM
Class of 2006: Good points. But I believe that coaching plays in every game. My question on assigning a grade was not meant to determine who's to blame for a loss. I don't play that game. I never said Coach K was to blame. This thread I started was not a "blame game" thread - just to get people's input on how they thought Coach K did in the first big game of the year. It was a team loss, and that includes coaches.

I think the maturation of Zoubek this season will be one of our keys, and your point is on target.

Billy Dat
12-21-2007, 10:17 AM
Being at the game, I thought Coach did a solid job. In the first half, he was liberally subbing and keeping fresh legs in the game, and looking for anyone with a scoring pulse. Down the stretch, he really went with the core 5 - Paulus, Hendo, Singler, Scheyer and Demarcus and essentially said, "the game is yours to win or lose". I thought he did a nice job of subbing offense for defense with Paulus/Smith, Henderson/McClure in the last 3 minutes. Fields hit a very very tough step back 3, nearly unguardable. He jabbed stepped McClure, rocked him back, stepped back and hit nothing but net. It was a big time shot and it's tough to feel too bad about it. Coach got mad when he needed to get mad...and we missed a ton of layups, 5 footers and foul shots. There was a stretch during the Pitt comeback when he was trying lots of different lineups to get one that would click...first the starters, then the 2nd team, then a mix...we just couldn't score.

6th Man
12-21-2007, 10:19 AM
My problem with the coaching last night is that we have no half court sets. Our offense is spread the court and beat your man off the dribble. That works fine against lesser opponents, but man let's get 3 or 4 solid half court sets and work them. I think Duke gets too much into the one on one crap. We do have the Harlem Globetrotter weave on occassion. The one thing I will give Scheyer was he had 12 boards. I wished he had hit Nolan Smith instead of jacking that 3 in OT.....Smith would have had a lay-up. But those are things he will be shown on film and hopefully if it happens when it really matters he will make the right play. Good learning experience......too bad it didn't go our way.

OldPhiKap
12-21-2007, 10:20 AM
K had an absolutely horrible night. He didn't box out a single time, and didn't hit a single @#$%#@ free throw.

How did this guy ever get into the Hall of Fame ?!?

:mad:

burnspbesq
12-21-2007, 10:26 AM
My problem with the coaching last night is that we have no half court sets. Our offense is spread the court and beat your man off the dribble. That works fine against lesser opponents, but man let's get 3 or 4 solid half court sets and work them. I think Duke gets too much into the one on one crap. We do have the Harlem Globetrotter weave on occassion. The one thing I will give Scheyer was he had 12 boards. I wished he had hit Nolan Smith instead of jacking that 3 in OT.....Smith would have had a lay-up. But those are things he will be shown on film and hopefully if it happens when it really matters he will make the right play. Good learning experience......too bad it didn't go our way.

That "Harlem Globetrotter weave" is an integral, and highly efficient, part of the Phoenix Suns offense, which one assumes K learned from D'Antoni while on national team duty. I got a good look at it on Wednesday night, watching the Suns - Mavs game from the upper level of American Airlines Center. You should see some of the opportunities Grant gets to go down the lane in that set. Henderson will get some Sports Center highlight opportunities out of it.

Jeffrey
12-21-2007, 10:27 AM
What about silly "freshman" mistakes by sophomores and juniors?

Hi,

Why do you continue to counter specific statements with vague responses? Specifically, what did you think of Taylor's D in the first half? Specifically, how do you think Taylor matched-up against Pitt? Specifically, who would have you had Taylor defend when he was playing?

Best regards,
Jeffrey

dukeENG2003
12-21-2007, 10:30 AM
That "Harlem Globetrotter weave" is an integral, and highly efficient, part of the Phoenix Suns offense, which one assumes K learned from D'Antoni while on national team duty. I got a good look at it on Wednesday night, watching the Suns - Mavs game from the upper level of American Airlines Center. You should see some of the opportunities Grant gets to go down the lane in that set. Henderson will get some Sports Center highlight opportunities out of it.

We've been running the weave longer than K has been the national team coach.

K did a fine job last night, the players failed to execute, as many have said. That was our problem. The comment about "rugby" I believe was also on point, it was an UGLY game, and we have a lot of trouble executing in those types of games, this year and historically. This is why Maryland gives us som much trouble all the time. Remember JJ's jersey ending the game two sizes larger than it started?

Also, how many times did the refs bail out Blair by shifting fouls away from him? This had a BIG effect on the game IMO (we should have won anyways, I'm not saying the refs cost us the game, just that it ticked me off). I was at Sati's watching the game, and on 2 occasions the whole bar started doing the "ooooooooh" (wave hand) getting ready to say "SEE YA" only to find out that mysteriously, the foul was on someone else (it was actually 3 times, cuz they did it when he ACTUALLY fouled out too).

Classof06
12-21-2007, 10:33 AM
Class of 2006: Good points. But I believe that coaching plays in every game. My question on assigning a grade was not meant to determine who's to blame for a loss. I don't play that game. I never said Coach K was to blame. This thread I started was not a "blame game" thread - just to get people's input on how they thought Coach K did in the first big game of the year. It was a team loss, and that includes coaches.

I think the maturation of Zoubek this season will be one of our keys, and your point is on target.

I didn't mean to insinuate you were blaming Coach K, sorry if it came across that way. I also don't mean to say Coach K shouldn't be held accountable either. I just thought that based on the game Kryzyzewski coached, we were in a position to win. He didn't miss crucial free throws, he didn't get bullied off the ball the whole 2nd half and he didn't blow the assignment on Fields' game winner. Obviously everybody shares the blame, that's why they're called a team. But our coach put us in a position to win; given the shot it took to beat us, I think that's hard to argue.

Jeffrey - Singler had 5 rebounds in 38 minutes; Zoubek had 3 rebounds in 6 minutes. I could care less about Zoubek's footwork, just get the damn ball when it comes off the rim. And Zoubek only had one personal foul. I know he has a ways to go, but I just can't justify leaving a 7-1 player on the bench when you're getting killed on the boards.

As far as Paulus goes, this isn't about confidence it's about winning the game. Krzyzewski was subbing Nolan in for defense but if I'm not mistaken, that didn't start until towards the end of OT. I thought he should've started doing it earlier.

Jeffrey
12-21-2007, 10:46 AM
Jeffrey - Singler had 5 rebounds in 38 minutes; Zoubek had 3 rebounds in 6 minutes. I could care less about Zoubek's footwork, just get the damn ball when it comes off the rim. And Zoubek only had one personal foul. I know he has a ways to go, but I just can't justify leaving a 7-1 player on the bench when you're getting killed on the boards.

As far as Paulus goes, this isn't about confidence it's about winning the game. Krzyzewski was subbing Nolan in for defense but if I'm not mistaken, that didn't start until towards the end of OT. I thought he should've started doing it earlier.

Hi,

I doubt there would have been many missed shots to rebound if Blair had had the ball in the paint against Zoubek.

IMO, this is about winning another national title. This is definitely about confidence.... confidence is critical to winning another national title!

Best regards,
Jeffrey

Bluedawg
12-21-2007, 10:58 AM
I just wondered why King was on the bench that last minute.

natedog4ever
12-21-2007, 11:52 AM
That "Harlem Globetrotter weave" is an integral, and highly efficient, part of the Phoenix Suns offense, which one assumes K learned from D'Antoni while on national team duty. I got a good look at it on Wednesday night, watching the Suns - Mavs game from the upper level of American Airlines Center. You should see some of the opportunities Grant gets to go down the lane in that set. Henderson will get some Sports Center highlight opportunities out of it.

I've posted on this topic before - the weave goes back to '94, which, coincidentally, usually ended with Grant Hill getting either a jump shot or a drive to the basket. Unfortunately, I felt we were doing it at the time because we didn't have much of a point guard. I won't carry the argument any further.

Devilsfan
12-21-2007, 11:53 AM
We just need to find a HC gig for Collins, make Wojo the guards' coach and get a former big to coach and draw athletic bigs to Duke, imo. One or two Blairs, PPs, Brockmans, Monroes and we there. I don't want to see us stop running and go back to the "root canal" half court offense we had last year.

365Duke
12-21-2007, 12:54 PM
Where was this thread when we beat the other 10 teams this year. Ahh I love the couch potato, arm chair, Monday morning quarterback. The man has forgotten more basketball than any of us will ever know. Give it a break.

dw0827
12-21-2007, 01:19 PM
Where was this thread when we beat the other 10 teams this year. Ahh I love the couch potato, arm chair, Monday morning quarterback. The man has forgotten more basketball than any of us will ever know. Give it a break.

Amen. End of thread. Nothing more to be said.

Uncle Drew
12-21-2007, 01:20 PM
I obviously don't post a lot but I was pretty upset there wasn't more defense on the three ball on the last play. I felt that Pitt was just going to go for the win considering they had two of their top players out and they wouldn't have had much of a chance in a second overtime.

You win some, you lose some, hopefully the whole team will learn from it.

Okay Duke is up two and they let Pitt come down and shoot a three leaving little or shall I say less than optimal time for a better play for the win. Pitt had made 66% of their free throws for the game. It's always easy to look back and say "shoulda, coulda, woulda". But am I crazy in thinking up two and ahead you foul early (trying to make a steal and NOT get an intentional foul) and let them shoot two free throws to TIE the game. 1. That would have given Duke a chance Pitt misses one or both free throws and Duke gets the rebound. 2. If they make both free throws Duke would then get to play for the win with MORE time.

Yes there is always the chance Pitt could have made the first gotten the rebound, put it back and still won. But there is always the chance going for a steal (especially in a physical game) you might get it without the foul being called too. I'm not Friday morning point guarding, but I can't see letting a guy get off a three for the win. For that matter I'd rather make a team shoot three free throws for a win, especially only shooting 66% for the game.


For the record I didn't have any problem with Coach K's decission making in the game, and lack of time outs at the end probably hurt more than anything.

AtlDuke72
12-21-2007, 01:27 PM
But am I crazy in thinking up two and ahead you foul early (trying to make a steal and NOT get an intentional foul) and let them shoot two free throws to TIE the game. 1. That would have given Duke a chance Pitt misses one or both free throws and Duke gets the rebound. 2. If they make both free throws Duke would then get to play for the win with MORE time.


.

Simple answer: yes, you are crazy. Pitt was 2 for 19 at the time in 3 point shots. No coach in the history of basketball would have his team foul in that situation.

weezie
12-21-2007, 01:33 PM
Well, considering all the past years when we've had early season success that ended up in whimpering at the end of the NCAAs, I can tolerate the loss, barely, if K turns it into some hard practices before the ACC begins.
My guess is he will.

Uncle Drew
12-21-2007, 01:36 PM
Simple answer: yes, you are crazy. Pitt was 2 for 19 at the time in 3 point shots. No coach in the history of basketball would have his team foul in that situation.

Atl, you could have saved me years of therapy and a ton of $$$$ if you'd told me that years ago! Okay then, how about a little better perimeter D, it's not like the guy has King's range!

greybeard
12-21-2007, 01:40 PM
The dead spots in the second half made me wince. I thought that Scheyer could have used some rest, and an opportunity to refocus. I thought maybe Zoubek as another poster mentioned might have helped for a few minutes too.

My guess, this was a feel thing for K. I think that he could not get a picture of how changing things from the way he played it would work, without exposing a possible run out by Pitt, which would have been demoralizing.

Duke got exactly what it wanted at the end of regulation, which required some players to make some big time plays and which all of us would have taken mid way through the second half when Pitt started to show some dominence. Score tied, two shots to win, both inside the paint. Come on.

Then, it takes a guy who willed his team to victory to do what he couldn't do the entire game to beat you, and your guys still had a chance even then.

I got no issue about how K "brought the colts home." Hoosiers.

dukechem
12-21-2007, 02:06 PM
At the end, I wondered what would have happened if Duke had gone zone for Pitt's last possession. Often times, when a team goes zone, the opposition has to step back a few seconds to see what is happening and adjust their plan of attack. I don't believe that Pitt had a timeout left.

A zone may have been more effective for guarding the perimeter for that one possession although it may have allowed penetration to the lane for an easier two point shot. I never expected to see a zone, but then Pitt probably would have been surprised, too.

The one thing about this game is that no one person, player or coach, can be considered the "goat." Each of the principal players had opportunities (open shots, free throws, avoiding critical turnovers) to win the game, and each, possibly excepting Paulus, did things that kept us alive. There should be no finger pointing, and I doubt that there will be.

Incidentally, my alma mater would win last night, no matter how it ended. My BS is from Pitt, PhD from Duke. I was pulling for Duke all the way. If it had been football, that would have been something else.

Zeke
12-21-2007, 02:18 PM
Any team that shoots about 50% free throws is likely to lose - particularly a Duke team. I don't know if Coach K can be accused of no emphasizing that part of the game but I doubt it.
I would have love to have see Z bang against Blair more - when Blair had 3 PF's - might have gotten him out earlier. Z did alter a few shots in the 6mins he played.
Any team that is forced to live by the 3 will find it much harder to shoot them when there is a hand or body in there face. This was a physical game and good that our guys learned about it early as they will see it again. The second half last night reminded me of the first UNLV game - very physical and Duke back on there heals a bit. They will improve.
Welcome to big time college BB.

allenmurray
12-21-2007, 02:22 PM
What grade would you assign Coach K for his coaching in the Pit game?

I give him a C.

Didn't think Coach K was up to his usual standards for a big game. He stuck with Scheyer too long with a bad shooting night, and should have given more time to King to work his magic when we needed some offense in the 2nd half.

And Paulus just seemed to disappear after that early 2nd half timeout when Coach K ripped the team. During key stretches of the 2nd half when we struggled offensively, Paulus wasn't even on the floor to run the show. Seemed like Henderson ran it and we looked like a one-on-one team with no flow.

I do not think Coach K did his usual good job making adjustments in the 2nd half.

If Duke had gone 16 of 26 instead of 14 of 26 from the free throw line, and Duke had won by one, what grade would you have given K. Would you have still started this ridiculous thread?

Devilsfan
12-21-2007, 02:26 PM
Z is not ready to bang against anyone on a top 25 D-1 team. Maybe with LOTS of hard work he might be ready by his senior year, imo. I'll give him credit, he does try to make the most out of what he got.

Devil in the Blue Dress
12-21-2007, 03:04 PM
Where was this thread when we beat the other 10 teams this year. Ahh I love the couch potato, arm chair, Monday morning quarterback. The man has forgotten more basketball than any of us will ever know. Give it a break.

You are very astute.

loran16
12-21-2007, 03:40 PM
I don't think you can blame K for this loss.

There were 2 questionable points though imo.

End of OT, we have the ball with like a minute left, paulus runs the shot clock down to 15 seconds without starting the offense, and K calls our last time out (despite having been yelling to paulus right next to him during the defensive possession), which nearly cost us when scheyer was trapped and had to lob the ball to gerald.

End of the second half, final possession, paulus gets the ball, hands it to gerald, and paulus just settles into the corner and watches while everyone else is still moving....seemed like a waste of a player in there...i mean , even if G is called for to get the shot, why not have paulus maybe throw a screen in....

SilkyJ
12-21-2007, 03:45 PM
Yep.

And sometimes you just get beat. It'll happen again.

Was it the 98-99 season when we lost in Nov. or Dec. to Cinncinnati (on a last second play), then proceeded to kick the fecal matter out of everyone we played up until the fateful UConn game in April?

That season actually got a bit boring for me. We'd beat everyone we played by 20 - 30 points.

-EarlJam

i can't even post in threads where you post anymore b/c i just look at your constantly updated avatar and crap my pants. keep it coming.

greybeard
12-21-2007, 03:59 PM
Z is not ready to bang against anyone on a top 25 D-1 team. Maybe with LOTS of hard work he might be ready by his senior year, imo. I'll give him credit, he does try to make the most out of what he got.

Which is a still mending foot, supported by some special contraption in his shoe. Put a contraption, any contraption you want, into your shoe, and see how you do. Then think for a second, your foot doesn't have a still-mending major, bone broken through and through in three different spots, including one near a key joint, which, while it doesn't move alot, does move. Can we say, ouch boys and girls?

The kid will improve as the year progresses and the soreness subsides.

sagegrouse
12-21-2007, 04:32 PM
1. Greg was not just ineffective, but inactive -- and I am a Greg fan
2. Rebounding stunk. Oh, year, bench Scheyer, and we get outrebounded 49 to 19 instead of 49 to 31.
3. Three point shooting was off the mark. Stuff happens. But we missed about ten shots right near the basket. "Be quick but don't hurry," saith the Wizard of Westwood (Sumner will correct my quote, as usual). IMHO (the 'h' is silent) we were rushing our shots.
4. Gerald free-lanced to excess (great plays, but missed a lot of passes).
5. No one got the ball to Singler. ("Think, McFly, think!")
6. FT shooting was awful.

My assessment of K is how he addresses each of these.

sagegrouse

feldspar
12-21-2007, 05:19 PM
Grade Coach K on the Pitt Game

Uh...yeah. I think I'll pass.

What 365Duke said.

greybeard
12-21-2007, 05:34 PM
Good thing that Greg does not depend on his good looks. That mouse looked nasty. Who hit him? Bilas said it was Singlar. Oops, off topic again. Or am I?

Going into the game Bilas said K told the guys it was going to be a war, to go with their instincts. It was and they did.

Wish they had won; I think they outplayed Pitt; nothing I've read says otherwise. Do wish they had won though.

Prediction: Smith will be brought into the play slowly; as he adjusts to life at Duke, more will be asked of him. He will not disappoint.

Devilsfan
12-21-2007, 05:45 PM
I guess with old age you forgot about boot camp. It's for getting the troops ready for battle. Love the team though. Suggestion, next year send them all out to take part in Demarcus' 2006 summer workout.

Uncle Drew
12-21-2007, 10:48 PM
If Duke had gone 16 of 26 instead of 14 of 26 from the free throw line, and Duke had won by one, what grade would you have given K. Would you have still started this ridiculous thread?

Any time you win, perspective changes. As stated I didn't have a problem with Coach K's play calls, substitutions etc. And I would give him his usual grade A for the game. But if the US military / CIA had captured Bin Laden by now and we had actually found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq his approval rating wouldn't be his shoe size right now. While I was disappointed Duke lost I honestly think they will learn a ton for it and possibly address holes / deficiencies even more. This loss will make Duke a better team in January than winning the game ever would. Games are like marriages, no body wants to go through a bad one and divorce. But doing so teaches you a lot more about the next marriage and the things you want to keep doing or never try again! (For the record....."What happens in Vegas doesn't really stay in Vegas!)

dukestheheat
12-22-2007, 09:21 AM
Good thing that Greg does not depend on his good looks. That mouse looked nasty. Who hit him? Bilas said it was Singlar. Oops, off topic again. Or am I?

Going into the game Bilas said K told the guys it was going to be a war, to go with their instincts. It was and they did.

Wish they had won; I think they outplayed Pitt; nothing I've read says otherwise. Do wish they had won though.

Prediction: Smith will be brought into the play slowly; as he adjusts to life at Duke, more will be asked of him. He will not disappoint.

Sometimes right now he's tentative with the ball and I understand this; BUT, he's going to come around real quick and when he does, his stock rises FAST for Duke! His wheels and especially his ability to turn the corner on his defender (and then create afterwards) give NS significant potential for Duke.

Watch this guy as he's a rising star.

DukeDevilDeb
12-22-2007, 09:25 AM
Did anyone think that the gash Greg got from Singler's elbow might have influenced his play and, most especially, his shooting? I don't know whether he was woozy or not, but the swelling there certainly could have had an impact on his vision... and that might contribute to poor/little shooting.

weezie
12-22-2007, 09:50 AM
The swelling went down considerably by the second half. He's a former football player (as the announcers love to point out several times during EVERY game,) so I doubt he'd be fazed by a superficial cut like that, bloody though it might have been.

CatfiveCane
12-22-2007, 11:01 AM
It's a hard to be a great coach when your players are missing shot.

But two things:
1) we lack the size to out muscle and rebound big teams this year. We all know this, and all realize this will be our downfall.

2) Coach K has never been a great X&Os guy. He's been outcoached plenty of times in big games (1999 Finals vs UConn always comes to mind). His coaching is predicating on players making the plays.

Hard to argue with his success though... although I'm sure we all wished Duke had 1-2 more NC titles.

Indoor66
12-22-2007, 12:08 PM
It's a hard to be a great coach when your players are missing shot.

But two things:
1) we lack the size to out muscle and rebound big teams this year. We all know this, and all realize this will be our downfall.

2) Coach K has never been a great X&Os guy. He's been outcoached plenty of times in big games (1999 Finals vs UConn always comes to mind). His coaching is predicating on players making the plays.

Hard to argue with his success though... although I'm sure we all wished Duke had 1-2 more NC titles.

I would disagree with your point 2. K is a very good game coach. He has historically made excellent adjustments to counter game situations. The key is in your second statement in 2: the players have to make the plays. This did not happen last night.

Uncle Drew
12-22-2007, 12:51 PM
I would disagree with your point 2. K is a very good game coach. He has historically made excellent adjustments to counter game situations. The key is in your second statement in 2: the players have to make the plays. This did not happen last night.

I can look at specific games like the 99 championship game where it seemed Coach K made little or no half time adjustments. And I can look at the 86 game where he called for a little "stall ball" and Nervous Pervis made a couple of steals. Those games in particular I could use as bad X's and O's examples. But at the same time I've seen too many great set up plays just before the half or HUGE winning shots like Laettner in 90 against UCONN and UK in 92. You put 10 future NBA lottery picks on a team and they are making plays and my cat would look like a great coach. So I'd have to agree with indoor. I will say I think Coach K's greatest strength is leadership / motivation. Duke gets every teams best shot and they have for years. The fact they rarely lose to lower ranked and less talented teams speaks volumes to this. Duke 99% wins the games they are supposed to win, and that's why he will probably be the all time winningest coach some day.

365Duke
12-22-2007, 02:36 PM
2) Coach K has never been a great X&Os guy. He's been outcoached plenty of times in big games

the dumbest statement I have ever seen on this board.Seriously?Really?

Uncle Drew
12-22-2007, 10:23 PM
the dumbest statement I have ever seen on this board.Seriously?Really?

You've only been here since February 2007, stick around a while longer. This is a debatable statement and far stupider things have been said on DBR even by me!

1. There is no way McRoberts goes pro with the year he just had, he needs another year in school. We know it and he knows it.

2. There is no way Duke let's Coach G leave after she practically built the program. No way no how!

3. Duke will win at least half their games in football this year and be bowl eligible.

4. Mike Nifong is a competent detail oriented DA. He wouldn't proceed with charges unless there was something to it!

5. Luol Deng is becoming a better player than Lebron James. (I said that one, go ahead and hold it against me!)

6. Hansbrough clearly rammed his face into Henderson's hand.

7. Chis Duhon isn't good enough to make the Bulls and even if he does he won't last more than one season.

8. In football this years kicking game should be much improved from previous seasons.

9. Do you guys think Duke should add male cheerleaders like UNC? (And no this wasn't posted by a female!)

10. Duke will never fork out the cash to get a football coach with previous success and head coaching experience.


:cool:

Jumbo
12-22-2007, 11:10 PM
Jumbo, I know where you are coming from. I, too, think Scheyer contributes in other ways. I see the points you are making and can easily agree with what you are saying.

But that doesn't mean Coach didn't have a few hiccups himself and we can't brainstorm about them. He's trying to figure out things with this team, just players are trying to figure out or adapt their games at this point in the season.

I made my points because we were really struggling offensively in the 2nd half, and really needed some buckets to answer Pitt's comeback. I am only suggesting that Coach K could have tried some different combos than Scheyer and Henderson at key stretches, as they rushed shots or had bad shot selection during our dead period offensively in the 2nd half. Maybe Paulus should have put up more shots.

And as far as King goes, Taylor got most of his minutes in the first half. He really wasn't on the floor much for a sustained period in the second half to get into a groove.

Folks, don't be so sensitive about comments on Coach K. He is not beyond reproach at any given moment. He would be the first to welcome it. He's a great coach, and I love my Coach K. But he's not a god to be worshipped - he's a man to be respected and appreciated. Of course, he knows tons more b-ball than I or any of us on this board. But, then again, one of the purposes of this board is to allow us fans a chance to provide our own spin and views on the team and its performance - for our entertainment value.

Read what I said again. I believe Coach K should be held accountable every bit as much of the players. I just think you hit on the wrong issues (Scheyer and King). Four things I think Coach K could have done better:

1) Duke was lously executing its plays out of timeouts. At times, it didn't even look like a play had been called. I put that on K. Plus, the timeouts weren't managed well for the end-game.

2) He took too long to go to Smith/McClure in OT. He should've started big and given a couple of members of the Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson-Henderson-Singler a brief break so they could come out and finish strong. Too many coaches treat overtime as if it's the last two minutes of a game, when it is actually five minutes long. That's enough time to start one way and finish another way.

3) More Zoubek. I didn't think he was that bad.

4) Most importantly, the offense should have run through Singler at the top of the key. When he had the opportunity to face-up Blair, he killed him. Unfortunately, he rarely had that opportunity.

Jumbo
12-22-2007, 11:14 PM
That "Harlem Globetrotter weave" is an integral, and highly efficient, part of the Phoenix Suns offense, which one assumes K learned from D'Antoni while on national team duty. I got a good look at it on Wednesday night, watching the Suns - Mavs game from the upper level of American Airlines Center. You should see some of the opportunities Grant gets to go down the lane in that set. Henderson will get some Sports Center highlight opportunities out of it.

The weave is not a staple of the Suns' attack. Occasionally, they run "dribble-ats" where the ball-handler literally dribbles at his teammate for either a dribble hand-off or a cut. But the Suns don't run the weave the way Duke runs it. I actually love Duke's early weave -- it's just a way to initiate the offense with a bit of movement, not really a set, per se. Also, oddly enough, Pitt ran the same thing. But because Duke was switching on every screen, DeMarcus ended up guarding the ball-handler after ever exchange. His stamina and quickness were stunning, and totally negated whatever Pitt was trying to accomplish in that set.

Jumbo
12-22-2007, 11:17 PM
But am I crazy in thinking up two and ahead you foul early (trying to make a steal and NOT get an intentional foul) and let them shoot two free throws to TIE the game.

Yes, that is crazy.

Uncle Drew
12-23-2007, 12:14 AM
Yes, that is crazy.

Ya know what sucks about the Pitt game? The fact we lost negates Demarcus Nelson's awesome play then getting fouled making the freethrow. Okay it doesn't wipe it away from the record books or anything. But that play was so clutch, so money you hate there was a single second left on the clock for them to get another shot.


I guess I know how Kentucky fans feel in 92 when their guy threw up a high arching shot and it banks in to take the lead with little time left. Few people remember that shot today because of Laettners turn around. Oh well if quality losses are possible this definately was one. I think it will make the team better and I'm still more impressed with this years team than I ever thought I could be!

365Duke
12-23-2007, 07:57 AM
You've only been here since February 2007, stick around a while longer. This is a debatable statement and far stupider things have been said on DBR even by me!


:cool:

Actually no, I have been around for much, much longer than that. And by the way, you have only been here since March 2007:rolleyes:

bjornolf
12-23-2007, 09:01 AM
Actually no, I have been around for much, much longer than that. And by the way, you have only been here since March 2007:rolleyes:

I was about to say that myself. DBR did some kind of redesign and made everybody resign up early this year. I've been around for almost a decade and yet according to them I've only been around for a few months. According to the new system, I don't think anybody's been around long. :D

j.j. jones
12-23-2007, 09:41 AM
3) More Zoubek. I didn't think he was that bad.

I agree. Everyone is praising Jon for his rebounding, and deservedly so, despite his offnight shooting. But Brian got a few decent boards for the brief time he was in there (for 6 minutes.) While watching a couple that he grabbed, I was thinking to myself "That's why it's said you can't teach height." Hops ain't everything.

Uncle Drew
12-23-2007, 01:50 PM
Actually no, I have been around for much, much longer than that. And by the way, you have only been here since March 2007:rolleyes:

Yeah I've been here longer too. As we are both "in the rotation" we are competing for playing time. You'll get more minutes because I've been called for more penalties, but I swear the refs are out to get me!

captmojo
12-23-2007, 03:21 PM
At 10-1 this far into the season, I'm not going to complain too much about losing this game. It's all going to be based on the team getting better, and that includes K. For this reason I don't go along with being negatively critical with the coaching staff midstream. I did not like during the season criticism of Coach Roof either. There will be plenty of time when the guys aren't playing to opine concerning the coach.

Next play. Next victim.

greybeard
12-24-2007, 01:25 PM
Not sure I agree completely with everything he said, but last three posts by Jumbo did have a pretty strong ring, struck me as pretty insightful. Bye, I need to get my ears checked or something. ;)

trinity92
12-24-2007, 02:42 PM
I still have little voice left from screaming at the garden last thurs. My thoughts on the coaching are NOT monday morning quarterbacking-- I was commenting throughout the game that Pitt completely imposed its style of play on us-- I cannot understand why we didn't try to run more and open up the play to a style that suited us better. I felt the same thing in Maui against IL and Marquette. Despite the pre-season coaching staff promises of up-tempo play, in games against better teams, we have simply not run much at all, and our full-court press and traps have been largely MIA. K seems to revert to past form when the going gets tough, and with this team's depth and small size, I'm disappointed.

As for the endgame, How could McClure allow a 3 pointer? Unacceptable from a Duke veteran. Lastly, given our past successes in end-game scenarios, 4 seconds is an eternity. I am puzzled why K didn't call a TO to set up the last play, and was screaming for a timeout as Scheyer ran upcourt.

Not the end of the world, but not our Coach's finest hour either.

Jumbo
12-24-2007, 04:37 PM
. Lastly, given our past successes in end-game scenarios, 4 seconds is an eternity. I am puzzled why K didn't call a TO to set up the last play, and was screaming for a timeout as Scheyer ran upcourt.

Duke was out of timeouts. K wasn't screaming for one.

Buckeye Devil
12-25-2007, 11:02 AM
I find it hard to believe that there is this much dialogue on a thread grading Coach K. I am apt to believe that not everyone has an "A-Game" every time out be it players or coaches. However, with that said, I can't think that I am overly qualified to grade a coach that has 3 NC's, 4 runner-ups, and a total of 10 Final 4's to his credit, just because the team lost its first game of the season to a quality opponent.

dukestheheat
12-25-2007, 11:09 AM
trinity92-

i see your point on duke not working so much for the up-tempo in the pitt game, but i think pitt slowed the game into the half court to keep the tempo down. that favored their game and while that would naturally go TO pitt, i don't think it had much impact on the outcome of our play or the result.

what impacted the result of that game were: very poor free throw shooting by Duke, poor shot selection and decision-making on shots in the second half and also equally poor ball control by Duke.

If Duke hits their average on free throws, makes the normal good decisions on shots and ball control, Duke wins that game by 10 points or more.

I'm really excited about how K is going to use this game as a case study to help Duke get much better and we may be in for a real rocket ride going forward.

my $.02, dth.

Devilsfan
12-25-2007, 11:53 AM
I don't think we needed to see more of our center. I don't think he is ready for the ACC. Wish they would have red shirted him and worked on his strength and coordination.
I hope they play Taylor enough to keep him happy (more than 11 mins.). (No insight here just an observation) I know that high school stars have a tough time riding the bench. He'll be VERY good in years to come, imo. Heck, he's very good right now. And he's our scoring threat for the future.
Finally, I think Coach K's criticism is ill founded. IMO, he's the BEST!!!