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Ben63
12-20-2007, 10:43 PM
Seems to be a disagreement over good loss/ bad loss. Thoughts?

Coballs
12-20-2007, 10:47 PM
Bad loss!!! As I stated in another post, same old issues - big lead blown, tentative/sloppy offense in the second half, missed fouls shots and lay-ups, domination by a single physically imposing opponent, and a very late dagger by a player who could/should? have been double teamed. Any game where we are held to 64 points in 45 minutes is not good. But hopefully, come March, this game should be a very distant memory. Not to take anything away from Pitt. They're a tough team and can make noise against any opponent.

dukeisawesome
12-20-2007, 11:12 PM
Can someone explain what a good loss is?? A loss is bad by definition, but compared to losing to some crap team this is obviously not as bad.

Troublemaker
12-20-2007, 11:19 PM
It's both, silly. A loss is always bad because it's a loss, particularly if the team played poorly in areas it should be good in, which was the case. But then again, a loss can allow lessons to sink in quicker than a win. Personally, I don't really care what anyone calls it.

Truth
12-21-2007, 08:48 AM
still smells rotten in Denmark.

EarlJam
12-21-2007, 09:19 AM
Can someone explain what a good loss is?? A loss is bad by definition, but compared to losing to some crap team this is obviously not as bad.

A good loss, to me, is when it's a game that in the grand scheme of things, is irrelevent (sp?) but your young players can learn a ton from it.

I have a feeling that Singler, King and some of the younger players might have been feeling a bit invincible prior to last night - even if it was a subconscious thing. That's not a knock, just an observation. I mean, they had to be living in a dream world. "Wow! Playing for DUKE, dream come true, undefeated, climbing in the polls, etc." They had yet to face real adversity.

I think this is good because I think Singler and King in particular hate, hate, HATE to lose. Now I, EarlJam, hate that expression (i.e. "hate to lose"). I mean, who likes to lose? But in a Laettneresque way, I bet this loss will light a rather brilliant and intense fire under these kids arses. This IS a very good Duke team. Now, they've tasted defeat. I want to see how they respond to that. And it's good to get this analysis in December (i.e. "pre-season). Come March, this will all be a fading memory. It simply won't matter.

Okay, so "GOOD loss?" I can see the problem with that term. But some losses aren't as bone-crushing as others and I think this game falls into that category.

-EarlJam

Jeffrey
12-21-2007, 09:29 AM
Hi,

The term "good loss" is an oxymoron. Losses are bad and winners never like to lose.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

EarlJam
12-21-2007, 09:41 AM
Hi,

The term "good loss" is an oxymoron. Losses are bad and winners never like to lose.

Best regards,
Jeffrey


True, in the moment. But in hindsight, there is such thing as a "good loss."

-Does Duke beat UNLV in '91 if they didn't get spanked like they did in 1990?

-Does Duke go on to win their first national championship in '91 if they don't get their arse handed to them by UNC in the ACC Tournament championship?

-Does Grant make the perfect pass and Laettner the perfect shot if that very play doesn't fail in a loss to Wake Forest earlier in the year?

There are a TON of other examples. And it's not just in hoops, but in life as well. You LEARN from mistakes. You get stronger. In a show called "In His Own Words" (or something like that) Coach K dedicates a significant amount of time talking about how Failure is the key to success. He said at West Point, they set it up so that everyone fails so they can learn and be molded into something much stronger.

Yes, everyone should hate to lose. But to think there is nothing to be gained from losing or failing is completely untrue. In fact, reality says the exact opposite.

-EarlJam

Jeffrey
12-21-2007, 10:04 AM
Yes, everyone should hate to lose. But to think there is nothing to be gained from losing or failing is completely untrue. In fact, reality says the exact opposite.

-EarlJam

Hi E.J.,

IMO, saying that losses are bad and there is something to be learned/gained from a loss are two completely different things. Of course, winners learn from their losses. They learn how to win..... which is good.

Best regards,
Jeffrey

Slant
12-21-2007, 10:06 AM
Failure is the laboratory for success.

Jeffrey
12-21-2007, 10:17 AM
Failure is the laboratory for success.

Hi,

Does that mean that Duke is going to dominate ACC Football for the next 10-20 years? They sure have had a lot of "good losses" in the last 5-10 years!

Best regards,
Jeffrey

mepanchin
12-21-2007, 10:18 AM
You don't expect to go undefeated or to have great shooting nights every night. It's a bad loss in the sense that despite Blair being a beast on the boards, we had every opportunity in the world to win but didn't. Every loss sucks. However, We played great defense all night (even in the post), and for most of the game we ran our offense well and created good shots - they just didn't go in. Smith, Scheyer, King all struggled. We turned it over too much - many of them just stupid decisions by some of our players. In short, on offense we were terrible. Even so, we were in good position to win against a very good, very tough top 10 Pitt team if not for Fields' last second 3.

I think it's a good loss for two reasons. First, you can take away from this that Duke can defend the post pretty effectively. Defense kept us in the game when our offense wasn't clicking. Second, it's a loss that will sting because we blew the lead and it was in front of so many people, but it comes in December before the ACC season. The players won't forget it. It'll be like VCU #2 and they'll come out with a chip on their shoulder to win when the conference season starts.

While rebounding is ostensibly a concern, I have three observations:

1. Pitt did a great job limiting our 2nd chance opportunities. That's unfortunate, but ultimately par for the course. This Duke team has not and will not be a great offensive rebounding team - we will win games by attacking the basket, taking care of the ball and hitting free throws. Consider that despite our low rate of offensive rebounding, we were 1 shot away from winning the game. One possession, one shot. How many easy shots did we miss? How many free throws? This is actually a good thing, because it suggests that rebounding is not as important as some people think it is and reminds us that the key is just hitting shots.

2. Even so, we actually did a pretty good job limiting Pitt's 2nd chance opportunities too. Not a great job mind you, but we kept them under their season rate for offensive rebounding. Scheyer did a great job on the defensive glass and our guys really fought for those boards.

3. DeJuan Blair is still a freshman but is one of the most gifted rebounders to come into college basketball in years. He has huge hands, a huge wingspan and is incredibly strong and pretty athletic to boot. He also puts himself in good position. Look, any team will struggle getting boards with him going to the glass. I'm encouraged knowing that Blair got his 20 rebounds and 15 points and we still could have won comfortably had we hit open shots and free throws at a more typical rate.

Duke12
12-21-2007, 10:29 AM
The loss exposed our weaknesses which include repeat issues. 1>Paulus defense 2>lack of low post PAtrick Patterson presence 3>Nelson's free throw shooting and now Jon's strength. These can be overcome against many opponents but will probably keep us from advancing deep in the tournament. Despite these weaknesses, the team is fun to watch, has heart and is competitive again.

Billy Dat
12-21-2007, 11:22 AM
Good loss because they came all the way back, we took the punches and went toe to town for the last 4 minutes and OT and they had to make a great play to win the game. We didn't play particularly well, but when they came back we rose up and had several legit chances to win. We weren't going to go the full year without a little backslide into last year (bad free throws, timely turnovers, can't score, cough up double digit lead), but I feel we weren't as bad last year as everyone made out - all things considered.

It's not a good way to head into the holiday break - but this team needs to realize that we shouldn't be conceding the regular season ACC title to UNC. I hope they are thinking, as I am, that the title is ours for the taking as much as it is UNC's.

mr. synellinden
12-21-2007, 11:37 AM
I think this is good because I think Singler and King in particular hate, hate, HATE to lose. Now I, EarlJam, hate that expression (i.e. "hate to lose"). I mean, who likes to lose? But in a Laettneresque way, I bet this loss will light a rather brilliant and intense fire under these kids arses.

I think the Arizona loss at the Meadowlands his freshman year had that kind of impact on Laettner's hatred of losing. He missed two free throws at the end and I don't think he ever missed clutch free throws after that. He certainly didn't miss them against UNLV with 12.7 second left and he didn't miss one against Kentucky.

Bluedawg
12-21-2007, 12:19 PM
This is the same type of game they will face against UNC...They need to experience it before they face UNC

Devilsfan
12-21-2007, 12:38 PM
There are NO good losses. There are losses from which much can be learned. We do not need to be complimented on how bravely we fought in defeat. We lost! I don't like to lose, period.

weezie
12-21-2007, 03:09 PM
Good loss, bad loss, meh. It stinks but we'll be ok.

It's the Friday before Christmas, is no one ready for an early cocktail hour?

merry
12-21-2007, 03:11 PM
I said bad loss because you can never know if something was a "good" loss (if there is such a thing) until you see what happens next.

ArkieDukie
12-22-2007, 05:25 AM
I agree with EarlJam, Bluedawg, et al. As much as I hate to lose, I thought things could've been much worse. We got behind (after TOTALLY dominating) and fought back. We found yet another clutch player; Gerald Henderson singlehandedly got us back in the game. The ESPN guys actually got something right: it felt like an NCAA tournament game. I can't help but think that this game will reap major benefits down the road, assuming that our players learned from it. Knowing Coach K, I would say that's a safe assumption. We also have several players who don't particularly like to lose, so I'm sure they'll remember it as well.

BTW, EarlJam, nice touch with the avatar!

ThatDukeFan1
12-22-2007, 07:52 AM
what the heck is a "good loss?" being a duke fan, losing is unacceptable. if you can accept losing, thats pretty sad in my opinion.

i do think the loss will teach us some things for down to road. like to play until the clock hits 0:00 or to not give up. and most importantly to hit our FT's. obviously i'm not the coach, but if i was, they'd be outside shooting on the nearest court til their hands fell off.

ArkieDukie
12-22-2007, 08:13 AM
obviously i'm not the coach, but if i was, they'd be outside shooting on the nearest court til their hands fell off.

I was a bit more worried about the missed wide open shots under the basket. I'd have them work on those first. But then, I'm not a Coach - I'm too underpaid for that. :)

ThatDukeFan1
12-22-2007, 08:18 AM
I was a bit more worried about the missed wide open shots under the basket. I'd have them work on those first. But then, I'm not a Coach - I'm too underpaid for that. :)

true on that too. but i was mostly referring to FT's... i mean what was it, 53% from the line? that's unacceptable for high school basketball, let alone college.

ArkieDukie
12-22-2007, 08:28 AM
true on that too. but i was mostly referring to FT's... i mean what was it, 53% from the line? that's unacceptable for high school basketball, let alone college.

Word. I didn't realize the FT% was that low!

j.j. jones
12-22-2007, 09:12 AM
what the heck is a "good loss?" being a duke fan, losing is unacceptable. if you can accept losing, thats pretty sad in my opinion.

I think that's the whole point here, that by experiencing the pain of losing, ideally one realizes that losing is unacceptable and will not want to experience that ever again. I don't think anyone is suggesting that we try to lose one now and then. However, it is true that sometimes a team can become complacent, even overconfident (after reeling off 10 straight wins) and perhaps they need a wake-up call to remind them they have to bring their A-game every single time.

Realistically, it's extremely rare that a team will go undefeated through an entire season. So, if a loss exposes some holes the team needs to work on in order to improve, and if at the same time there are some positives to take away from the game, in that sense it could be said that it's a "good loss." Although like you, and probably most everyone here, we would naturally much prefer to win every time out.

camion
12-22-2007, 09:16 AM
Win or lose this was a good game for us. We needed to play a game this tough in December. The loss got the kids' attention, generated a list of weaknesses and left time to work on them. I think it will help to make us better team come March.

I would call this a less worse loss.

captmojo
12-22-2007, 10:25 AM
Well, this takes the psychological pressures of an unblemished season off the table.:cool:

Trying to stay positive.

elvis14
12-22-2007, 05:39 PM
Not just a bad loss but a very bad loss. This is the first time I've been able to post or read since, it was very upsetting to see and it was a bad loss in terms of team psych, the fact that Pitt really isn't that good, blowing yet another big lead at the end of the half........etc etc etc. Really a bad loss. And I know FT shooting is very mental but I would increase it in practice because the part that isn't mental is muscle memory. I hate that we have to wait a while before they play another good team because I could use a good win to cheer me up :-) And before 30 people damn me for posting something negative let me clear that I love this team and despite this horrible loss I'm still VERY positive on the team/season/future.

To make it worse my washing machine died that day and just complete the daily trifecta....I had to take my daughter to the ER at the end of regulation. What a lousy night! I know I know, it's not about me :D

EarlJam
12-22-2007, 08:39 PM
And before 30 people damn me for posting something negative let me clear that I love this team and despite this horrible loss I'm still VERY positive on the team/season/future.

To make it worse my washing machine died that day and just complete the daily trifecta....I had to take my daughter to the ER at the end of regulation. What a lousy night! I know I know, it's not about me :D

You just HAD to write that, seconds before I was about to DAMN you! :D

On a serious note, is your daughter okay????

-EarlJam

Fish80
12-22-2007, 08:52 PM
And before 30 people damn me for posting something negative let me clear that I love this team ....I had to take my daughter to the ER at the end of regulation. What a lousy night! I know I know, it's not about me :D

Elvis, I hope your daughter is okay. Post again and let us know. Once we know your daughter is okay, we can go back to damning you.

Highlander
12-22-2007, 09:46 PM
what the heck is a "good loss?" being a duke fan, losing is unacceptable. if you can accept losing, thats pretty sad in my opinion.

i do think the loss will teach us some things for down to road. like to play until the clock hits 0:00 or to not give up. and most importantly to hit our FT's. obviously i'm not the coach, but if i was, they'd be outside shooting on the nearest court til their hands fell off.

Losing happens to every team every season except once in a blue moon. Failing to accept that you can or did lose is dangerous, because it implies you think that it can't happen. It can, and did happen to us. We are not perfect. If the goal is perfection, we could have come closer to that by playing the blind sisters of charity in CIS instead of a top 10 team on a neutral court. Duke's goal is not to be perfect; it is to win a National Championship. Failure is part of that goal. It shows you what you need to work on in order to get better, and reinforces what will happen if you don't strive for improvement.

Secondly, this team most certainly played until the end of the game and didn't quit. There is a difference in taking good shots and missing them, and taking bad shots or not trying. Duke for the most part took good shots; they just didn't go in. Heck, Henderson took some bad shots that did go in. Doesn't change the fact that they were bad shots.

Finally, not to state the obvious, but when you lose chances are you didn't do something very well. Case in point - nobody shoots 100% from the line and the floor and loses. In this case, had Duke played exactly the same game yet had Singler's tip gone, they would have won. One shot was the difference between a win and a loss. I doubt many people would have called it a 'bad' win in that case.

This was a one point, overtime loss,
on a neutral court in December,
to a top 10 team,
on a stepback 3,
in the last 7 seconds of the game.

You could argue that no loss is good, but I fail to see how you could classify this as a bad loss without arguing that Pitt is somehow unworthy of an undefeated record and rank in the the top 10. In that case, I would say that the NCAA coaches and Associated Press all disagree with you.

This lost cost us nothing but a few spots in a December poll. Losses that cost you nothing, yet provide learning experiences are good IMO.

ArkieDukie
12-22-2007, 11:01 PM
Arkansas lost to Appalachian State. In North Little Rock. I see no redeeming qualities to such a loss.

NYC Duke Fan
12-22-2007, 11:03 PM
I think the Arizona loss at the Meadowlands his freshman year had that kind of impact on Laettner's hatred of losing. He missed two free throws at the end and I don't think he ever missed clutch free throws after that. He certainly didn't miss them against UNLV with 12.7 second left and he didn't miss one against Kentucky.

Duke does not have anyone on this year's team that are as good as Laettner, Hurley or Hill . I don't remember any college player like Laettner who in essence said, " I will not let us lose, I will do whatever it takes to win".

Maybe Singler might develop into a, " Laettneresque ", type of player, but he would have to stay 4 years in order to do that.

Actually as I am finishing this post I now do remember a college player who would anything not to lose and that was Carmelo Anthony in Syracuse's winning the title a few years back.

elvis14
01-01-2008, 09:09 PM
On a serious note, is your daughter okay????

-EarlJam


Elvis, I hope your daughter is okay. Post again and let us know. Once we know your daughter is okay, we can go back to damning you.

Thanks for asking guys. Sorry I have not gotten back before now, I'm on vacation and I've been staying offline for a change. My daughter is just fine. I don't see how. She tripped coming out of the bathroom and went headfirst into the bed. Her nose struck the metal bed frame at the bottom of the bed. She's 6 years old today (happy birthday Lorin). Anyway, her nose really looked bad (as in displaced) and she threw up. They didn't do anything at the ER and the nose seems fine now. Like I said, I don't know how, I thought for sure she was going to be disfigured. I keep telling my wife how lucky she is that she didn't see her right afterwards. I still can't get that image out of my head! The loss to Pitt suddenly meant nothing to me.

Now back to my holidays, lets see:
- TV in my bedroom dies (I'm a Sportscenter/sleep timer sleeper)
- Duke Loses to Pitt
- Daughter to ER after crushing nose
- Oh why not, one more for the holidays, on Christmas day the heat in the house goes out.

Worse stuff happened earlier in the year, thanks goodness '07 is over!

CrazyCat
01-01-2008, 09:54 PM
Of course no one likes to lose. I hate even more losing by just one point. But compared to last years team who was very green so to speak, I think they are doing very well and coming into their own this season. It is going to take time, but we also no Coach K well enough to know, they will learn from those loses and come back the next game.