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View Full Version : Why don't players help up the other team's players anymore?



trinity92
12-11-2007, 10:57 AM
When I was in school, Duke players routinely gave a hand to opposing players who hit the deck, to pull them to their feet, especially if they had committed the foul. This favor was usually returned at some point. Nowadays (thumbs hitched in suspenders) it seems solely the responsibility of a guy's teammates to lend him a hand, which I find disappointing.

Without picking on Kyle in particular, I remember noticing a recent occasion where Singler had a perfect opportunity to help someone up who he had fouled, but he just turned his back and went to the 5 player pre-free throw huddle.

I'd like to see a change. Of course, I'd probably leave a tarhole on the floor waiting for his teammates :D. Anyone else agree, or am I just getting long in the tooth and yearning for a return to old-school gentility?

Johnboy
12-11-2007, 11:08 AM
When I was in school, Duke players routinely gave a hand to opposing players who hit the deck, to pull them to their feet, especially if they had committed the foul. This favor was usually returned at some point. Nowadays (thumbs hitched in suspenders) it seems solely the responsibility of a guy's teammates to lend him a hand, which I find disappointing.

Without picking on Kyle in particular, I remember noticing a recent occasion where Singler had a perfect opportunity to help someone up who he had fouled, but he just turned his back and went to the 5 player pre-free throw huddle.

I'd like to see a change. Of course, I'd probably leave a tarhole on the floor waiting for his teammates :D. Anyone else agree, or am I just getting long in the tooth and yearning for a return to old-school gentility?

I see players help opposing players up frequently, even in the pros. It's not every time, but I see it and applaud it (if I'm watching with my kids, I point it out to them). I also enjoy seeing the handshake line after games when it looks particularly friendly and sporting.

darthur
12-11-2007, 11:14 AM
I'd say you see that kind of sportsmanship *especially* in the pros, not *even* in the pros. I'm not knocking college players here - it's just easier to be a good sport when the pressure on any single play is not as high.

allenmurray
12-11-2007, 12:06 PM
I've seen a lot of scenarios. Sometimes no help offerred, sometimes help offerred and taken, sometimes help offerred but refused and instead the player waits for one's own team-mate to offer help. The change seems to be with an emerging "chippy" attitide that every physical play must be intentional - "I'm not going to let you help me up, after all you knocked me down".

On a similar note, for years during introductions the players on the Duke women's team, after they were introduced, ran over to the other team and shook hands with the opposing coach, then ran back to their team-mates on the floor. I always liked that and thought it was really classy. It stopped a year or two ago with no explanation (during coach G's tenure - it was not a change brough about by coach P).

Shammrog
12-11-2007, 12:08 PM
When I was in school, Duke players routinely gave a hand to opposing players who hit the deck, to pull them to their feet, especially if they had committed the foul. This favor was usually returned at some point. Nowadays (thumbs hitched in suspenders) it seems solely the responsibility of a guy's teammates to lend him a hand, which I find disappointing.

Without picking on Kyle in particular, I remember noticing a recent occasion where Singler had a perfect opportunity to help someone up who he had fouled, but he just turned his back and went to the 5 player pre-free throw huddle.

I'd like to see a change. Of course, I'd probably leave a tarhole on the floor waiting for his teammates :D. Anyone else agree, or am I just getting long in the tooth and yearning for a return to old-school gentility?


FYI - this is a Coach K thing. (No, I am not kidding.) He doesn't like it when our players help up the opponent after a routine foul - views it (unless overly rough, etc.) as part of the game, and it is the other team's job to help *their* player up. May not sound very "sportsmanlike," but it is not intended to be otherwise. I think it is more a team unity/fouls are a normal part of playing thing.

Nugget
12-11-2007, 12:24 PM
Interesting tidbit Shammrog. I too had noticed how there is a marked difference from years past -- where guys like Tony Lang and Battier were constantly helping up players from other teams, even on routine fouls.

Coach K's thinking on the issue must have evolved, because I'm sure that the way past players handled themselves was also the way he wanted it, at least at that time.

allenmurray
12-11-2007, 12:34 PM
FYI - this is a Coach K thing. (No, I am not kidding.) He doesn't like it when our players help up the opponent after a routine foul - views it (unless overly rough, etc.) as part of the game, and it is the other team's job to help *their* player up. May not sound very "sportsmanlike," but it is not intended to be otherwise. I think it is more a team unity/fouls are a normal part of playing thing.

If I were the coach of any other team I'd insist that my players help up Duke's players. Given that all of Duke's games are on TV, most on national TV, it would soon become obvious that other players exhibit "good sportsmanship" and Duke players do not. Mind you, I'm not saying I believe that, I can see K's point about it being part of the game, but what a great way for other coaches to tarnish K's image. Having your hands full of packages when approaching a closed door is a part of life. I have no obligation to slow my progress toward where ever it is I am going to help someone out by waiting a minute and holding the door. Yet I still feel that I should hold the door open for somene who's hands are full.

Shammrog
12-11-2007, 12:43 PM
If I were the coach of any other team I'd insist that my players help up Duke's players. Given that all of Duke's games are on TV, most on national TV, it would soon become obvious that other players exhibit "good sportsmanship" and Duke players do not. Mind you, I'm not saying I believe that, I can see K's point about it being part of the game, but what a great way for other coaches to tarnish K's image. Having your hands full of packages when approaching a closed door is a part of life. I have no obligation to slow my progress toward where ever it is I am going to help someone out by waiting a minute and holding the door. Yet I still feel that I should hold the door open for somene who's hands are full.

I agree with you. (and, BTW, disagree with Coach K)

I did want to point out, however, that Coach K's *intent* with this is not to disrespect or be rude to the other team. Still, I always thought helping the other guy up is a nice touch of class - especially when players pat each other (butt, helmet, etc.) after a particularly hard hit.

If it were me, I would almost always help them up. In fact, the only time I wouldn't is if it were a willfully hard foul on my part (because they deserved it!).

allenmurray
12-11-2007, 12:54 PM
I agree with you. (and, BTW, disagree with Coach K)

I did want to point out, however, that Coach K's *intent* with this is not to disrespect or be rude to the other team. Still, I always thought helping the other guy up is a nice touch of class - especially when players pat each other (butt, helmet, etc.) after a particularly hard hit.

If it were me, I would almost always help them up. In fact, the only time I wouldn't is if it were a willfully hard foul on my part (because they deserved it!).

Given how often we disagree on the PPB it is nice to see how clearly we agree on this one!

I agree with K's idea that physical contact is "part of the game". I think that helping other players up afterward does more to promote this idea than does not helping them ujp. The "courtesy" of helping up another player is in my mind the best way to say, "nothing intentional, hope you're okay, we're just all playing hard out here"

EarlJam
12-11-2007, 01:54 PM
I advocate the Laettner Chest Stomp followed by name calling.

Okay, kidding, but man would Laettner trash talk. I was in the upper deck of the Greensboro Coliseum during the second round NCAA tournament game against A.C. Earl and Iowa in 1992.

Laettner pushed some guy out of bounds while at the same time looking at him and screaming the following (easily heard form the upper deck):

"You f'ing kitty cat!!! Only he didn't say "kitty cat."

It was pretty intense.

-EarlJam

greybeard
12-11-2007, 02:07 PM
I think allenmurray hit the nail on the head in his first post. Offering to help an opponent up in the current environment of college basketball is inviting possible trouble. No point in risking it.

mapei
12-11-2007, 08:58 PM
There is a school of thought that you want to make the other team expend more energy by getting themselves up. I personally think that's reprehensible, and so was the Laettner example.

Highlander
12-12-2007, 09:07 AM
I agree with you. (and, BTW, disagree with Coach K)

I did want to point out, however, that Coach K's *intent* with this is not to disrespect or be rude to the other team. Still, I always thought helping the other guy up is a nice touch of class - especially when players pat each other (butt, helmet, etc.) after a particularly hard hit.

If it were me, I would almost always help them up. In fact, the only time I wouldn't is if it were a willfully hard foul on my part (because they deserved it!).

I've heard the explanation from Coach K (via a book I'm sure), and IIRC it had to do with the analogy of going to war. He viewed each game as a war, and you needed to view the other team as your enemy. Helping them up after a normal foul gave the impression that they weren't your enemy, and you weren't taking the game as seriously as you should. He'd rather you go over and pick up your teammate than your enemy.

Not saying I see it that way, but the justification I heard went something like that, and I can kind of see his point.

speedevil
12-12-2007, 09:38 AM
When I was in school, Duke players routinely gave a hand to opposing players who hit the deck, to pull them to their feet, especially if they had committed the foul. This favor was usually returned at some point. Nowadays (thumbs hitched in suspenders) it seems solely the responsibility of a guy's teammates to lend him a hand, which I find disappointing.

Without picking on Kyle in particular, I remember noticing a recent occasion where Singler had a perfect opportunity to help someone up who he had fouled, but he just turned his back and went to the 5 player pre-free throw huddle.

I'd like to see a change. Of course, I'd probably leave a tarhole on the floor waiting for his teammates :D. Anyone else agree, or am I just getting long in the tooth and yearning for a return to old-school gentility?

because they dont like each othre

wilko
12-12-2007, 10:13 AM
heh..
I remember YEARS ago... my cousin and I were wrestling taking turns trying to throw each other into a swimming pool.. this one particular time... I spit right at his forehead saw him go crosseyed as it was coming at him and knew that was my window to tap him and knock him in the water. He sad I cheated.. I said prove it wheres the spit.. of course it washed away... I Meagher'd him. Do I feel remorse? NO. Makes up for me waking up finding myself covered in shaving creme and having the toilet seat vasolined. What goes around come around.

Was it offensive, perhaps, was it gross... most likely ..was it effective. Yes! I achieved my objective.
The lesson learned, if you can get into someones head to gain an advantage then DO it!
Remember the LSU game when Shaq and Chris Jakson came to town.. (1, 2, 3, 4 Shaq cant play this game no more).
I'd say it worked darn well.

Coach K's job is to take kids and make them winning men on the court. If that attitude garners a few more wins who am I to complain? Heck Roof just got canned because he couldnt win.. maybe if he were meaner and more ruthless.. who knows.. but the point stands. Knock K on this when it doesnt work and we are losing. Its all about winning. Lets not be overly naive.

If you wanted to see fair play and good sporting, challenge your neighbor to a game of Chess or lawndarts or whatever you feel comfortable playing. Lead by the example there.

I dont have that expectation in te least when I watch a game. I want Duke to win everygame by 30pts and make the oppenent look as inept and as embarrased as possible in the process. As irrational as it sounds, when Duke wins it makes me feel better than I am, Its like saying im right and you are wrong and having proof of it laid bare for everyone to see.. Im not in it for the thrill of sport, I look to Duke basketball to lift me up and make me better and righteous. They do that best by winning.

I am indeed imbalanced and I put the "natic" in fanatic.. but I relish it and can admit it honestly.

No these things dont bother me in the least. If this is part of being mentally tuff and instilling a winning attitude I can live with it, no problem.

gep
12-12-2007, 10:38 PM
I've heard the explanation from Coach K (via a book I'm sure), and IIRC it had to do with the analogy of going to war. He viewed each game as a war, and you needed to view the other team as your enemy. Helping them up after a normal foul gave the impression that they weren't your enemy, and you weren't taking the game as seriously as you should. He'd rather you go over and pick up your teammate than your enemy.

Not saying I see it that way, but the justification I heard went something like that, and I can kind of see his point.

Couple of thoughts... I remember (somewhat vaguely by now) when Larry Bird entered the NBA, he told his teammates that when you foul a guy and he's down, you do not go over and try to pick him up... and that he's the "enemy"... interestingly I distinctly remember the word "enemy" as used by Highlander. Bird even went on to say that if he walked into a bar, and the other teams players were in there, he'd promptly turn around and walk out... he'd never socialize with the "enemy". But, I think that commercial with Magic changed him somewhat (and age too, I would guess).

I think this is really all part of the game. From the tip to the final buzzer, it's war. After the final buzzer, you can be friends again... as shown by the handshakes after the game is over.

And as others have said, I would probably go over and help the other guy up... but I've never participated in high-level competitive sports... so I don't pretend to know what goes on "during the game"... thanks...

RelativeWays
12-13-2007, 07:22 AM
Its kind of an old school mentality. I remember reading Larry Bird's bio and he said he couldn't understand the friendship and affection that sometimes occurs before a game begins (Magic and Isaiah were big offenders to him at the time). Bird's attitude was whether or not the player on the other side was a good friend, as soon as they stepped on the court, he hated them and treated them like enemies, no handshakes until after the game. I don't think he was necessarily trying to be an ^$%^$%^$%, it was just his motivating attitude during game time. Coach K probably has a similar idea.

dukepsy1963
12-13-2007, 09:29 AM
"help the opponent up" camp. I disagree with Coach on this one; if he indeed discourages it.
Army and Navy football guys used to (may still) knock the S*&^ out of each other; then turn around and offer a hand. The competition never suffered as far as I could tell.
It is, after all, a game... not war!!!

I once played tennis with a guy who always smiled as he beat me. He was the first to help you up if you slipped too. It made me so angry to see him smiling as if were nothing in the world to him.... I could hardly play. It was psychological you see. I don' think I ever beat "Jupe."

So I say, pick 'em up...and smile. The idea being "I'm o.k., you're not." ...:).

mapei
12-13-2007, 01:03 PM
The idea that it's war is so . . . man, I don't even know where to begin on that one. Screwy values IMO.

Virginian
12-13-2007, 02:01 PM
The idea that it's war is so . . . man, I don't even know where to begin on that one. Screwy values IMO.

I'm in the same camp, though I'm not religious about it (to mix metaphors).

It's interesting that Coach K refers to his players as "kids" and the contest as "kids playing a game." I'm not clear how that squares with the supposition that he believes the game is a war. It'd be interesting to ask this thread's question of K or one of his assistants at some point.

HumboldtDevil
12-13-2007, 03:36 PM
I think it really depends on which team the Devils are playing against. And I'm not saying that if Duke is playing Carolina or Maryland we shouldn't help an opponent up. What I'm saying is that if the opponent - as the game wears on - is trying to start trouble with the in-your-face attitude then they'll turn anything into a confrontation, including just trying to help them up. This isn't something decided going into the game, just something that is picked up on as the game goes.

Boston College comes to mind, or at least some BC games in the past seven years.

Constantstrain 81
12-13-2007, 05:24 PM
Easy answer for me. If you're the first person there, help them up. It is never the wrong answer. After all, in war, we are civil to prisoners and non-combatants (I'm in the Army Reserves) - surely an opposing player who has fallen down is in the same category (as long as the clock is not running).

YmoBeThere
12-13-2007, 06:46 PM
Offering to help an opponent up in the current environment of college basketball is inviting possible trouble. No point in risking it.

Environments can be changed...sometimes by doing as little as lending a hand to help someone up. It didn't seem to hurt Shane and many others at all.