College Football Power Structure

[rockymtn devil]

One thing that is exciting for me (and I hope for all of you) is that there are quality names popping up. Even if they're just rumors, that good coaches like Logan, Johnson, Broadway, and Cutcliffe, just to name a few, are being talked about, is a good sign. I remember the names that popped up back in '04, and most the "big" names were pipe dreams--Tom Coughlin and John Cooper come to mind. It was basically Bobby Ross and Ted Roof, and that isn't the case this time.

What PJ has done at Navy is nothing short of remarkable, and I think he can win at Duke (Grobe has won with a quirky, run-based offense). I'm still a Cutcliffe fan, however after speaking to some Ole Miss alums over the weekend, the knock on him is that he can't recruit. Now, part of me chalks the "recruiting" critics up to the fact that Rebel fans have a hugely inflated image of themselves in the grand scheme of college football (only rivaled, IMO, by Georgia and Clemson) and they expect to get top-notch recruits. When Cutcliffe didn't, it was unfairly viewed as dissapointing.

[willywoody]

Now, part of me chalks the "recruiting" critics up to the fact that Rebel fans have a hugely inflated image of themselves in the grand scheme of college football (only rivaled, IMO, by Georgia and Clemson) and they expect to get top-notch recruits.

lumping clemson and georgia in with ole miss is funny even to my nonfootball self.

[throatybeard]

Georgia's earned a little arrogance.

Ole Miss was very very good 45-50 years ago. Since then, it's become clear that they're one of 3 I-A programs in a state containing under 3M people. Two BCS programs, and one of the strongest non-BCS programs. (And USM has often outshined OM and MSU). Compare Arkansas, with roughly the same population and only one BCS school, plus lightly regarded Arkansas State and some I-AA schools.

To win more than 8 games at MSU or Ole Miss, you'll need really superb out-of-state recruiting. I'm thinking of the sort you get with RR at WVU.

[rockymtn devil]

lumping clemson and georgia in with ole miss is funny even to my nonfootball self.

I wasn't comparing the success of Georgia to Ole Miss. Obviously the Dawgs have a much better program/history. I was saying that, like Ole Miss fans, Georgia fans have an inflated view of their place in college football relative to the actual on-field success. In my lifetime, Georgia has been a solid top-20 program that every few years is a top-5 team, but always loses at least 2 games. Many Georgia fans talk about their team as if they're up there with USC, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Florida, etc. In reality, BYU has a more recent national title than the Dawgs. Georgia is more in line with programs like Colorado, Wisconsin, Washington, West Virginia etc. Ole Miss is a nothc below those teams, but think they're up there with the Georgia's of the world.

[Sir Stealth]

I wasn't comparing the success of Georgia to Ole Miss. Obviously the Dawgs have a much better program/history. I was saying that, like Ole Miss fans, Georgia fans have an inflated view of their place in college football relative to the actual on-field success. In my lifetime, Georgia has been a solid top-20 program that every few years is a top-5 team, but always loses at least 2 games. Many Georgia fans talk about their team as if they're up there with USC, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Florida, etc. In reality, BYU has a more recent national title than the Dawgs. Georgia is more in line with programs like Colorado, Wisconsin, Washington, West Virginia etc. Ole Miss is a nothc below those teams, but think they're up there with the Georgia's of the world.

This type of view is the reason why Georgia fans really wanted their team to go up against USC in the Rose Bowl this year. In the end, the silliness of the Rose Bowl's choice of Illinois leaves a more bitter taste than getting hurdled for BCS Championship game, because a great measuring opportunity to see just how well UGA's current program stacks up nationally was missed. Hopefully, Georgia will prove it's top-level national status on the field in the next couple of years, when they should be really good.

[Bluedawg]

I wasn't comparing the success of Georgia to Ole Miss. Obviously the Dawgs have a much better program/history. I was saying that, like Ole Miss fans, Georgia fans have an inflated view of their place in college football relative to the actual on-field success. In my lifetime, Georgia has been a solid top-20 program that every few years is a top-5 team, but always loses at least 2 games. Many Georgia fans talk about their team as if they're up there with USC, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Florida, etc. In reality, BYU has a more recent national title than the Dawgs. Georgia is more in line with programs like Colorado, Wisconsin, Washington, West Virginia etc. Ole Miss is a nothc below those teams, but think they're up there with the Georgia's of the world.

Consensus National Champions
1980 (12-0-0) - Vince Dooley coached the Bulldogs to a perfect 12-0 season, including a 17-10 victory over Notre Dame in the Sugar Bowl to win the National Championship. Georgia finished as the only team with no losses and no ties and was declared No. 1 by almost every poll.

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Other National Championships
1968 (8-1-2) - Litkenhous
1966 (10-1-0) - Massey Ratings
1946 (11-0-0) - Williamson System
1942 (11-1-0) - Berryman; DeVold; Houlgate System; Litkenhous; Poling System; Williamson System.
1927 (9-1-0) - Boand System; Poling System

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Conference Championships
2005 - Southeastern Conference Champions
2002 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1982 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1981 - Southeastern Conference Co-Champions
1980 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1976 - Southeastern Conference Co-Champions
1968 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1966 - Southeastern Conference Co-Champions
1959 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1948 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1946 - Southeastern Conference Co-Champions
1942 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1920 - Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association Co-Champions
1896 - Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association Co-Champions

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Heisman Trophy Winners
Herschel Walker (1982) - Walker won the Heisman Trophy after his Junior season at Georgia. He rushed 335 times for 1,752 yards and 17 touchdowns.
Frank Sinkwich (1942) - Sinkwich won the Heisman Trophy after his Senior season at Georgia. He rushed 175 times for 795 yards and 30 touchdowns. Sinkwich also completed 84 of 166 passes for 1392 yards and 10 touchdowns.

24-6-3 Bowl record

Sicemdawgs.com (http://www.sicemdawgs.com/football/fb_his.php)

[Bluedawg]

This type of view is the reason why Georgia fans really wanted their team to go up against USC in the Rose Bowl this year. In the end, the silliness of the Rose Bowl's choice of Illinois leaves a more bitter taste than getting hurdled for BCS Championship game, because a great measuring opportunity to see just how well UGA's current program stacks up nationally was missed. Hopefully, Georgia will prove it's top-level national status on the field in the next couple of years, when they should be really good.

Their downfall was the lean years after Vince Dooley [201-77-10]

Ray Goff years 1989-1995 record: 46-34-1
Jim Donnan Years 1996-2000 Record 40-19

However, Mark Richt [61-16]has then turned around and headed in the right direction. They won't be able to ignore them to much longer

[rockymtn devil]

Their downfall was the lean years after Vince Dooley [201-77-10]

Ray Goff years 1989-1995 record: 46-34-1
Jim Donnan Years 1996-2000 Record 40-19

However, Mark Richt [61-16]has then turned around and headed in the right direction. They won't be able to ignore them to much longer

This probably belongs in its own thread, but for what it's worth:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/stewart_mandel/08/08/cfb.bag/index.html

Mandel has Georgia right where I have them in the grand scheme of things. A tier-2 program or, as he puts it, a regional power. Is Georgia a better program right now than Colorado? Absolutely. But, over the past 30 years the two programs are roughly even.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Division_I-A_national_football_championship

If you scroll down far enough there are several charts of the most commonly accepted National Champions over the years (this somewhat goes to the Helms Titles discussed in the UNC titles thread). There's no exact science to this, but it's a pretty extensive list. Note that Georgia is nowhere to be found.

My point is not that Georgia is not a very good football program, or that it's on the same level as Ole Miss (which I never said). But, to many Georgia fans, they are on par with the Trojans, Buckeyes, Wolverines, Sooners, and so on. I think history says otherwise.

[Olympic Fan]

[QUOTE=Bluedawg;69584]Consensus National Champions
1980 (12-0-0) - Vince Dooley coached the Bulldogs to a perfect 12-0 season, including a 17-10 victory over Notre Dame in the Sugar Bowl to win the National Championship. Georgia finished as the only team with no losses and no ties and was declared No. 1 by almost every poll.

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Other National Championships
1968 (8-1-2) - Litkenhous
1966 (10-1-0) - Massey Ratings
1946 (11-0-0) - Williamson System
1942 (11-1-0) - Berryman; DeVold; Houlgate System; Litkenhous; Poling System; Williamson System.
1927 (9-1-0) - Boand System; Poling System

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Conference Championships
2005 - Southeastern Conference Champions
2002 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1982 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1981 - Southeastern Conference Co-Champions
1980 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1976 - Southeastern Conference Co-Champions
1968 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1966 - Southeastern Conference Co-Champions
1959 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1948 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1946 - Southeastern Conference Co-Champions
1942 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1920 - Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association Co-Champions
1896 - Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association Co-Champions


Okay, that's 14 conference champions. That's two less conference titles than Duke has won (nine Southern and seven ACC). Is Duke a "national" power?

Georgia won the 1980 national title. No debate.

But those other titles? What a load of hogwash -- start in 1968 when some idiot tried to give the title to 8-1-2 Georgia ... that's the year No. 1 Ohio State crushed No. 2 Southern Cal in the Rose Bowl to complete a perfect season and sweep every major title. Heck, Penn State finished with a perfect season in 1968 and couldn't claim a title -- so Georgia with a loss and two ties claims a national title? What a joke (for the record, Georgia finished No. 4 in the coach's poll and No. 8 in the AP poll that year).

The 1966 title claim is equally ludicrous -- that was the year Notre Dame and Michigan State were widely acknowledged as the nation's two best teams and played their famous 10-10 tie. Both major polls ranked Notre Dame No. 1 and Michigan State No. 2. Georgia was again No. 4 in the coach's poll and No. 8 in the AP poll.

In 1946 there was only one poll -- but it had Notre Dame-Army 1-2 (Army had won back to back national titles with Blanchard and Davis and was unbeaten for more than three straight seasons until losing to Notre Dame).

That one-loss 1942 team finished second in the AP poll to unbeaten Ohio State.

Georgia's claim to multiple national titles has as much validity as UNC's claim to a 1924 basketball title or Duke's claims to football championships in 1936 and 1941 (both years, when they won similar "titles" to those Georgia claims).

Georgia has a very good program, but they are basically a second-tier "power" -- about the football equivilent of NC State in basketball (although the Pack does have twice as many legitimate national titles and three more conference titles)

[calltheobvious]

The only thing that makes trophy talk with Alabama fans more bearable than it is with Georgia fans is that Bama's case is actually full.

[willywoody]

The only thing that makes trophy talk with Alabama fans more bearable than it is with Georgia fans is that Bama's case is actually full.

too bad they've lost to key to put any more in there.

[rockymtn devil]

I disagree...history proves you wrong. the SEC has constantly been trashed and this is just another example of it.

You're still talking about a program with 1 legit national championship and 3 conference titles in 25 years. I'm not sure what history proves me wrong. Olympic Fan did an excellent breakdown of history/reality and Georgia football. Georgia's 1 national title doesn't compare with the 7, 7, 9, 11, 11, and 13 of Michigan, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Alabama, USC, and Notre Dame, respectively. It's not trashing anyone to state that. These are objective facts.

[Bluedawg]

You're still talking about a program with 1 legit national championship and 3 conference titles in 25 years. I'm not sure what history proves me wrong. Olympic Fan did an excellent breakdown of history/reality and Georgia football. Georgia's 1 national title doesn't compare with the 7, 7, 9, 11, 11, and 13 of Michigan, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Alabama, USC, and Notre Dame, respectively. It's not trashing anyone to state that. These are objective facts.

The schools you mentioned rank 1, 5, 9, 6, 10, and 2. Georgia ranks 11th. Looks like a tight bunch to me. So where does the second tier start..after #10?

The teams playing for this years National Championship rank 5th and 12th. OOPS...GA is still in the bunch.


Top 15 programs nationally based on Win-Loss Records (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Football_Win-Loss_Records):

# Team record games D1A Seasons conference
1 Michigan 860-282-36 1178 127 Big 10
2 Notre Dame 821-269-42 1132 118 Independent
3 Texas 810-316-34 1160 114 Big 12
4 Nebraska 803-324-40 1167 117 Big 12
5 Ohio State 787-301-52 1140 117 Big 10
6 Alabama 780-308-43 1131 112 SEC
7 Penn State 780-343-42 1165 120 Big 10
8 Tennessee 768-322-55 1145 114 SEC
9 Oklahoma 765-294-53 1112 112 Big 12
10 USC 742-300-54 1096 114 Pac 10
11 Georgia 704-380-54 1135 113 SEC
12 LSU 670-374-47 1091 113 SEC
13 Syracuse 669-452-49 1170 117 Big East
14 Auburn 667-384-47 1098 114 SEC
15 Colorado 652-412-36 1100 117 Big 12

The Big 10 Conference has 3 teams in the top 15
The Big 12 has 4
The SEC has 5

In the SEC GA ranks 3rd.



# SEC Records
1 Alabama 780-308-43
2 Tennessee 768-322-55
3 Georgia 702-379-54
4 LSU 670-374-47
5 Auburn 667-384-47
6 Arkansas 639-430-39
7 Florida 618-368-40
8 Mississippi 594-451-35
9 Kentucky 545-541-44
10 Vanderbilt 537-527-50
11 South Carolina 515-514-44
12 Mississippi State 473-514-39

last updated 30 November 2007.

[Indoor66]

[QUOTE=Bluedawg;69584]Consensus National Champions
1980 (12-0-0) - Vince Dooley coached the Bulldogs to a perfect 12-0 season, including a 17-10 victory over Notre Dame in the Sugar Bowl to win the National Championship. Georgia finished as the only team with no losses and no ties and was declared No. 1 by almost every poll.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other National Championships
1968 (8-1-2) - Litkenhous
1966 (10-1-0) - Massey Ratings
1946 (11-0-0) - Williamson System
1942 (11-1-0) - Berryman; DeVold; Houlgate System; Litkenhous; Poling System; Williamson System.
1927 (9-1-0) - Boand System; Poling System

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conference Championships
2005 - Southeastern Conference Champions
2002 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1982 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1981 - Southeastern Conference Co-Champions
1980 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1976 - Southeastern Conference Co-Champions
1968 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1966 - Southeastern Conference Co-Champions
1959 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1948 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1946 - Southeastern Conference Co-Champions
1942 - Southeastern Conference Champions
1920 - Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association Co-Champions
1896 - Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association Co-Champions


Okay, that's 14 conference champions. That's two less conference titles than Duke has won (nine Southern and seven ACC). Is Duke a "national" power?

Georgia won the 1980 national title. No debate.

But those other titles? What a load of hogwash -- start in 1968 when some idiot tried to give the title to 8-1-2 Georgia ... that's the year No. 1 Ohio State crushed No. 2 Southern Cal in the Rose Bowl to complete a perfect season and sweep every major title. Heck, Penn State finished with a perfect season in 1968 and couldn't claim a title -- so Georgia with a loss and two ties claims a national title? What a joke (for the record, Georgia finished No. 4 in the coach's poll and No. 8 in the AP poll that year).

The 1966 title claim is equally ludicrous -- that was the year Notre Dame and Michigan State were widely acknowledged as the nation's two best teams and played their famous 10-10 tie. Both major polls ranked Notre Dame No. 1 and Michigan State No. 2. Georgia was again No. 4 in the coach's poll and No. 8 in the AP poll.

In 1946 there was only one poll -- but it had Notre Dame-Army 1-2 (Army had won back to back national titles with Blanchard and Davis and was unbeaten for more than three straight seasons until losing to Notre Dame).

That one-loss 1942 team finished second in the AP poll to unbeaten Ohio State.

Georgia's claim to multiple national titles has as much validity as UNC's claim to a 1924 basketball title or Duke's claims to football championships in 1936 and 1941 (both years, when they won similar "titles" to those Georgia claims).

Georgia has a very good program, but they are basically a second-tier "power" -- about the football equivilent of NC State in basketball (although the Pack does have twice as many legitimate national titles and three more conference titles)

I have never heard of Duke claiming national titles in Football. Please site.

[rockymtn devil]

The schools you mentioned rank 1, 5, 9, 6, 10, and 2. Georgia ranks 11th. Looks like a tight bunch to me. So where does the second tier start..after #10?

The teams playing for this years National Championship rank 5th and 12th. OOPS...GA is still in the bunch.



The Big 10 Conference has 3 teams in the top 15
The Big 12 has 4
The SEC has 5

In the SEC GA ranks 3rd.

I'm going to start a new thread on this so the Duke coaching search thread doesn't get too off track.

[rockymtn devil]

This is a continuation of the discussion on Georgia football and the overall structure of college football from the Duke Coaching Search thread.

Bluedawg, in response to the all-time wins chart you posted:

First, this never was a conference superiority discussion, so I'm not sure why it matters what the conference breakdown is. I'd actually correct you and say that the B10 only has 2--Penn State did most of their damage prior to joining the B10.

Also, your list (or the list you provided) is based purely on overall wins and doesn't look to national titles. I'd say the latter is as important, if not more, in assessing the overall, historical power structure of college football. I think if you look to national titles, wins, heisman winners, and public perception, you get a good idea of where programs stand.

Because it's the program I'm most familiar with, simply compare Ohio State to Georgia. The Buckeyes have more wins (787-704), National Titles (7-1), and Heisman Trophies (7-2) than Georgia. Those numbers aren't even close. Again, it doesn't make Georgia a bad program. But I think it does put them at the next tier.

Maybe the best way to ask this is to compare Georgia to Ole Miss (use the team this all started with). I think if you laid the two programs side-by-side, most people would say Georgia is in another class than the Rebels. I'm sure Georgia fans would agree. I would. So, if, in that model, you replace Georgia with Ohio State/USC/Michigan/etc. and Ole Miss with Georgia, does it change the model? I don't think so.

[Bluedawg]

Bluedawg, in response to the all-time wins chart you posted

My only point was that how could the #11 team in the nation based on W/L be considered 2nd tier. Second point, the SEC among the top 2-3 conferences in the nation, and again, how the #3 team in that conference, based on W/Ls possible be considered 2nd tier.

This discussion ahs gone on much longer than it should have. Y'all are going to extraordinary lengths to trash GA for no apparent reason.

[rockymtn devil]

My only point was that how could the #11 team in the nation based on W/L be considered 2nd tier. Second point, the SEC among the top 2-3 conferences in the nation, and again, how the #3 team in that conference, based on W/Ls possible be considered 2nd tier.

This discussion ahs gone on much longer than it should have. Y'all are going to extraordinary lengths to trash GA for no apparent reason.

Nobody has trashed Georgia. Stating facts is not "trashing". Several people--including myself--have said that UGA fans have an inflated sense of where they stand (claiming 5 titles is evidence of that), but that isn't a indictment of the program. It's an opinion that is, by and large, based on fact. I stand by my Georgia-Ole Miss/Ohio State-Georgia model. It makes sense.

To answer your first point, like I already said, wins-losses is only one part of the equation. UGA is 11th all-time in wins, but is not high in terms of national championships. I'm not sure if something is being lost in translation, but a program with 1 national title to its name in a sport where a handful of teams have over 4, is not a tier-1 power. And to answer the anticipated response, not all teams that have 4+ titles are national powers (Harvard, Pitt, Minnesota, etc.) but that's because, as I've explained, you have to look at the totality of the circumstances. With all due respect, you haven't provided anything that proves that the Dawgs belong in the same class as USC, Notre Dame, Michigan, Ohio State, Alabama or even programs like Penn State and Florida.

[pfrduke]

My only point was that how could the #11 team in the nation based on W/L be considered 2nd tier. Second point, the SEC among the top 2-3 conferences in the nation, and again, how the #3 team in that conference, based on W/Ls possible be considered 2nd tier.

This discussion ahs gone on much longer than it should have. Y'all are going to extraordinary lengths to trash GA for no apparent reason.

There is a small handful of schools mentioned in the first breath of great college football programs. Michigan. Ohio State. Notre Dame. USC. Alabama. Oklahoma. Maybe (maybe) Nebraska, Florida, and FSU, but even those three are stretching it. That's it.

Then there's a group of schools with very good, but not great, programs. Those would include LSU, Georgia, Auburn, Tennessee, Miami, Penn State, UCLA, Washington, Colorado, Wisconsin, Virginia Tech, Texas, Texas A&M. You'll notice that those are all very good football programs, and it's not a group to be ashamed to be a part of. No one is "trashing" UGA by saying that they're a part of this group. Nor is it a criticism to Georgia to say that they are not the equal of the great teams listed above.

[pfrduke]

My only point was that how could the #11 team in the nation based on W/L be considered 2nd tier. Second point, the SEC among the top 2-3 conferences in the nation, and again, how the #3 team in that conference, based on W/Ls possible be considered 2nd tier.

This discussion ahs gone on much longer than it should have. Y'all are going to extraordinary lengths to trash GA for no apparent reason.

By the way, I know it's not your intention, but you're doing a great job of proving the original point that got us all onto this tangent.

[Sir Stealth]

There is a small handful of schools mentioned in the first breath of great college football programs. Michigan. Ohio State. Notre Dame. USC. Alabama. Oklahoma. Maybe (maybe) Nebraska, Florida, and FSU, but even those three are stretching it. That's it.

Then there's a group of schools with very good, but not great, programs. Those would include LSU, Georgia, Auburn, Tennessee, Miami, Penn State, UCLA, Washington, Colorado, Wisconsin, Virginia Tech, Texas, Texas A&M. You'll notice that those are all very good football programs, and it's not a group to be ashamed to be a part of. No one is "trashing" UGA by saying that they're a part of this group. Nor is it a criticism to Georgia to say that they are not the equal of the great teams listed above.

I'm a big UGA football fan and I think that that's a very fair assessment. I do think that it's trashing the program to say that it's no closer to Ohio St. than it is farther from Ole Miss, but I see that that probably wasn't intended to that degree. I think that the next couple of years look really bright for the Dawgs - they have been as successful in terms of wins as any program in the country during Mark Richt's tenure, and hopefully they can take it to the next echelon in the coming years and deserve to be listed in that highest echelon down the road.

[Olympic Fan]

[QUOTE=Olympic Fan;69662]

I have never heard of Duke claiming national titles in Football. Please site.

Go to the College Football Data Wharehouse and click on national titles:

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/index.php

They list "recognized" national titles and "all" national titles.

Duke did not win and does not claim any recognized national titles. But in 1936, when Duke went 9-1 (losing 15-13 on a late punt return at Tennessee), Duke was one of seven one-loss teams to get national title consideration. Minnesota is the generally recognized champion (and finished No. 1 in the first AP poll), but James Howell's magazine named Duke as his champion.

In 1941, Duke finished the regular season 9-0 (in those days, national titles were almost always determined in the regular season) and was named national champion by Ray Byrne. Duke finished No. 2 to Minnesota in the final AP poll that season.

There were A LOT of publications and organizations that picked national champions in those days. Now, Duke doesn't claim national titles in these years because neither is legit (although I do wish they'd at least list them in their brochure). Georgia's claim to national titles in seasons like 1968 and 1966 and 1946 just makes them look as foolish as UNC looks for claiming their 1924 national title awarded retroactively in 1942 by a Los Angeles bakery.

I don't mean to trash Georgia football either -- it's a strong program with a great history. But this thread is originally about the delusions of Georgia fans thinking they are in the first rank of college programs with Michigan, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Alabama, Southern Cal ...

Georgia football is good, but it's not that good.