I rest my case! GREAT JOB Marty!

[imagepro]

I'f you don't know what I'm talking about, you haven't been reading DBR. I have said all year long that Marty is a player. I even said he could be a star. I was criticized, laughed at, called a troll and humiliated.

Tonight he HAD to play, and with limited playing time scores 14. Didn't miss a field goal, and was 2-2 from the line. Also if you didn't notice, he played great defense. Had it not been for GHs suspension, you all know he would not have had the opportunity to show what he is capable of.

Now, if you argue with me this time, you'd argue with a stop sign.

I say GREAT JOB Marty Pocious!

[trinitydevil]

Great game from Marty!! A career game for him at this point. AND, in the ACC tournament. He had to play tonight too. No question.

Makes you wonder if he could have filled in the rotation more. No, doesn't make you wonder. Pretty much soldifies he could have.

Marty has a scorers mentality. And the moves to get the points. If you are aggressvie to the basket you will get some turnovers.

Great game Marty.

[dukie8]

<Edit by Mods: Destructively Negative>

[imagepro]

Yea- it was "brilliant" wasn't it 8! Scores 8 in the first half, sits for the first 8 minutes of the 2nd. Scores instantly TWICE when he returned. Oh well, I'm stupid though........

[Highlander]

Second that. Marty gave us huge minutes off the bench and made some great shots. It was an all around great game for him. On offense, this was only the third time all year we've broken 80 points

Unfortunately we were unable to stop State in the second half, and that more than anything was the reason we lost. They were 14-18 at one point. In the Overtime, I think they scored on every single possession (15 points in 5 minutes). Atsur simply couldn't miss, and when he wasn't shooting he was slicing up our interior defense. Nelson and McClure were asked to guard guys who were a lot bigger than they were, and as a result, both fouled out.

Having Henderson certainly would have helped, as our defense just got absolutely shredded tonight.

[Duke05]

I thought Marty played very impressive ball today. But with all due respect, imagepro, I'm not sure it's appropriate to gloat.

a) You've seen Marty play for less than two or three total hours over two years. The Duke coaching staff has watched Marty play for some two or three hundred hours this year alone.
b) This was one game. I'm not willing to conclude that the coaching staff has completely missed the boat on Marty based on one game against an opponent playing one particular defense that has not really seen any game tape of Marty.
c) Marty has been playing more in recent games. Granted, this was not anywhere near what he played tonight, but the coaching staff had definitely been showing him signs of confidence. Perhaps the coaches have developed him well.
d) I apologize if this wasn't an argument you were using, but several on the old board argued that players couldn't be ready to perform in big games without getting experience during the regular season. I think Marty's game tonight provides some evidence against that. (Again, as with your argument, this is only a sample size of one, so it doesn't prove much)
e) And actually, the real reason I'm posting is because we just suffered a very painful loss. And I'm a bit upset that you've taken this opportunity to gloat about winning an argument. I'll get over it -- and you're entitled to feeling vindicated. But right now, I don't feel so bad calling you out for it.

[dukie8]

<Edited by Mods: Destructively Negative>

[imagepro]

I'm NOT gloating. I'm MAD. He should have been playing all year. Sorry you interpret my disappointment as GLOATING. But you are WAY off 05!

OK, your points are made, but MANY of us disagree with you. You ultimately may be right. But you can't do what Marty did tonight without a LOT of talent. Will you disagree with that? He used left hand TWICE. I may be wrong, but he sure showed a LOT of people something tonight. <Edited by Mods: No insulting other posters>

[mpj96]

Congratulations to Marty on a great game. Good luck to the team in the big dance.

[BlueDevilBaby]

Marty was great. Why did Coach K take him out after the three point play? Go with the hot hand.

[Duke05]

I'm NOT gloating. I'm MAD. He should have been playing all year. Sorry you interpret my disappointment as GLOATING. But you are WAY off 05!

OK, your points are made, but MANY of us disagree with you. You ultimately may be right. But you can't do what Marty did tonight without a LOT of talent. Will you disagree with that? He used left hand TWICE. I may be wrong, but he sure showed a LOT of people something tonight. Thank not? Just read the boards! GLOATING??? Please man.Whatever......

Probably shouldn't reply, since the loss is still messing with my head, but here goes:
a) I may be wrong, but I lurk here obsessively, and I don't think anyone thought Marty was untalented. So yes, I agree -- Marty is very talented. That doesn't mean he should have been playing all year. (More explicitly: all our scholarship players are quite talented, and that alone doesn't -- and shouldn't -- merit playing time.)
b) Since I didn't state my position, I think you're wrong in saying that many disagree with me; as an armchair coach, I've actually wanted Marty in a lot more than he has been. This is for several reasons: I don't know much about the intricacies of basketball; in particular, I really like watching flashy offensive plays; when he's been in games, he's looked good on both O and D to my untrained eyes. And yet he hasn't played. So I support the coaching staff because the conspiracy theory that they're holding him down seems a lot less plausible than the theory that I don't know as much as the coaches.
c) I can't ultimately be proven right; my position is that the coaches didn't mess up by not playing Marty up until this point. I expect Marty to contribute more and more as time goes on, and I sincerely hope that I'm not "proven right" by his return to the bench. I suspect (and hope), given Marty's gradually increasing minutes, that his rumored defensive problems are being resolved.
d) I'm sorry I thought you were gloating. But I reread your post, and I don't think I made an unreasonable assumption. (Feel free to reread it yourself.) It rubbed me the wrong way. This exchange still rubs me the wrong way, particularly since I've always liked Marty. Again, I'm not going to tell you you can't gloat or be mad or whatever it is your first post was, but I think you're flaunting a premature victory in an argument that, frankly, wasn't based on much evidence to begin with.

I'm sorry I sound like a Coach K apologist here. (I'm more than happy to rant and rave about the slowdown offense, since it just doesn't make mathematical sense to me in a lot of situations.) But I really don't think it makes sense to argue that Marty should have been playing more. Is it possible that your eye for effectiveness on a basketball court is so much better attuned than our coaches' that you can see what they can't in a hundredth of the time? Sure. I'll grant you that possibility. But don't pretend that it's so blatantly obvious that Marty should have been playing that only idiots and Coach K can't see it.

You know what happened today, right? We lost while we replaced Gerald Henderson's minutes with Marty Pocius's. Does that make Marty a worse player than Gerald? Of course not. It's just one game. But neither does this one performance mean he should have been taking minutes away earlier. And maybe -- just maybe -- our team was actually better at winning games with Marty off the floor.

[trinitydevil]

Marty was also recruited by Kansas, Utah, Texas, Arizona as well as Duke. And had official visits to Arizona and Kansas. K, Roy, Majerus, Lute, and Barnes probably know a player when they see one.

How many first round draft picks, conference championships, ncaa championships, and wins have they produced.

A former team captain told me personally he needs more playing time. I have witnesses. No denying that fact.

Marty wasn't an overlooked recruit.

Great game Marty. Congratulations!!

[fogey]

Marty's speed and quickness are UNMATCHED on this squad, and his aggressiveness is on a par with DeMarcus. He also has actual offensive skills- good shooting touch and coordinated moves on drives. As I posted after the UNC debacle, he could have helped then by providing an offensive lift and giving starters valuable minutes to catch a breath. His performance tonight was not a surprise.

[Jumbo]

I'f you don't know what I'm talking about, you haven't been reading DBR. I have said all year long that Marty is a player. I even said he could be a star. I was criticized, laughed at, called a troll and humiliated.

Tonight he HAD to play, and with limited playing time scores 14. Didn't miss a field goal, and was 2-2 from the line. Also if you didn't notice, he played great defense. Had it not been for GHs suspension, you all know he would not have had the opportunity to show what he is capable of.

Now, if you argue with me this time, you'd argue with a stop sign.

I say GREAT JOB Marty Pocious!

ImagePro,
I'm going to have to ask you to calm down. Again.
Let me put this another way: I rest my case too. All year, you've been saying that Pocius gets pulled at the slightest mistake. Well,, he came into the game for Scheyer early, immediately drove, and didn't look when he was passing, throwing it right into the arms of a State player. He came out of the game a couple of minutes after. Then he got back into the game later in the first half. The first time he touched the ball -- at the 6:22 mark -- he did the exact same thing, then fouled the guy for good measure, sending him to the line for a one-and-one. This is the time Coach K supposedly would "yank" him, right? Guess not. Marty stayed out there. And we all know what happened next -- a couple of threes, a drive, and then an appearance for almost the entirety of the last 10 minutes of the second half too.

Marty played fantastically tonight. And he made mistakes early and recovered from them. So, this disputes your notion that K is unwilling to allow him to make the slightest mistake. Please consider that.

Finally, no one called you a troll, criticized you or laughed at you for simply suggesting Pocius should play more. People have argued with you, but saying "Marty is a player" didn't lead to any of it. I think most people like Marty and hope he does well. He's got four other very good perimeter players ahead of him; it's a shame he's not a couple of inches taller, because Duke could certainly use some help at the 4 position right now. But I don't think it's appropriate to gloat like you're doing after one game. And I don't think you're fairly characterizing what others have said, nor what you have said in the past.

Anyway, again, I loved watching Marty's offense tonight. And clearly his confidence wasn't shaken one bit by whatever "yankings" happened earlier in the year, despite some speculation to that effect. But I'll say one other thing -- the entire team played awful defense, and that includes Marty. Defense is a team thing, and the whole team takes the blame for allowing NC State to shoot 60.8% from the field.

[Troublemaker]

Marty did a great job. I love him and I think he'll get about 15 min/gm starting next season. I hope to see him for at least that long the rest of this season as well.

[imagepro]

OH Jumbo- don't take me so seriously!

[Jumbo]

Marty was great. Why did Coach K take him out after the three point play? Go with the hot hand.

He was going offense/defense there. He had four guards in when Marty scored; he pulled him after the FT for Lance to help guard NCSU's two bigs. Of course, that didn't work. But Marty was back in for offense at the next dead ball.

[Fish80]

No argument here that Marty had a good offensive game, and we needed it. I'm pleased for Marty, but very bummed that we lost. Damn.

imagepro, i don't know what you think you have proved, but i do agree that Marty looked good on offense

Josh also looked good late in the second half. His jam was awesome! But alas, not enough.

DeMarcus also had a great game, all around.

"It's the defense, stupid." i'm not calling anyone stupid. i'm just mad.

[elvis14]

I was really happy to see Marty step up tonight. Like Imagepro, I'm of the opinion that Marty has been under used. My argument for that is that we have had players very fatigued at the end of games while Marty rides the pine. I wouldn't post a bunch of I told you so BS, I'm just really happy to see Marty get his chance and to rise to the occasion.

It's just a little something positive to take away from another frustrating loss.

[calltheobvious]

I'm NOT gloating. I'm MAD. He should have been playing all year. Sorry you interpret my disappointment as GLOATING. But you are WAY off 05!

OK, your points are made, but MANY of us disagree with you. You ultimately may be right. But you can't do what Marty did tonight without a LOT of talent. Will you disagree with that? He used left hand TWICE. I may be wrong, but he sure showed a LOT of people something tonight. <Edited by Mods: No insulting other posters>

Nice strawman. No one here has ever argued that Marty is untalented, just that he turns the ball over waaaay too often given his production level, and that he has a tendency to get lost on defense. Tonight's performance doesn't change history. Marty's performance, while unexpected, didn't shock the staff tonight. They've never doubted his talent, only his ability to limit his turnovers, demonstrate good shot selection, and play solid team defense. That tonight he played his best offensive game at Duke does not erase the data that have been accumulated on him.

I'm still interested to know whose minutes you want Marty to take. Tonight he took Gerald's (suspension) and DeMarcus's (after fouling out). You on board for keeping Marty's minutes next Thursday or Friday where they were tonight? You think he's hitting all of his jumpers and finishing all of his drives for the rest of his career?

If I flip a coin five times in a row and it comes up heads each time, would you think that I'm a really talented coin-flipper and that it would be wise for you to begin laying 6:5 on me flipping heads from here on out?

[grossbus]

Jumbo a Moderator...and the world still spins on its axis. :)

[nyesq83]

Pocius played well. I missed his early errors, got to the bar late. But after Marty's initial missteps he rocked. Don't forget that he had a great summer - scoring mightily in international play.

Paulus - when I think of how some Duke fans questioned his heart - ha!

Scheyer, McBob, DeMarcus - all looked tired at times - hitting fronts of rims et cetera.

McClure seems to have tucked his offense away somewhere. And we could have used his rebounding tonight.

Let's hope to survive and advance.

And don't beat the guys up too much.

Why didn't K put Zoubek in for 3-4 more minutes in the first half? Especially when we get a 5 or 6 point lead?

I don't care if the opposing team goes up 10 points, why o why can't K rest our guys more?????

Not being critical, I just want to know, because I am not so bball-savvy.:confused:

[imagepro]

05 says-
"You know what happened today, right? We lost because we replaced Gerald Henderson's minutes with Marty Pocius's. Does that make Marty a worse player than Gerald? Of course not. It's just one game. But neither does this one performance mean he should have been taking minutes away earlier. And maybe -- just maybe -- our team was actually better at winning games with Marty off the floor."

I cannot believe what you just said. We lost because Marty was 4-4 from the field and 2-2 from the line? And "Maybe, just maybe--our team is better at winning games with marty off the floor". WOW.

I NEVER said Marty should replace GH. Never said that. I said he should play more, so Gh and others, can play more RESTED. UNC does it, Ohio State does it, MANY teams do it. I'm not smarter than Coach K. I just like Marty. And people always say, earn your playing time. Marty did tonight, and has on more than one occasion this season. I don't blast you because you think he shouldn't play. Why blast me because I think he should?

AS any fan around the country will tell you, depth is a problem for DUKE. My only point is that I think Marty should be playing more. I'm frustrated with the loss just as you are 05. You are not alone in your feelings. But you are attacking me AND Marty with the comments you make. YOU said right above, as I quoted, that we are better at winning games with Marty off the floor. That to me 05, is totally uncalled for. Especially from someone who says in another paragraph that you think he should be playing more. Well, which is it? Lose with him on the floor as YOU say, or play him more. Which DO you prefer?

[trinitydevil]

I won't defend why imagepro or anyone else might be upset and a little emotional right now.

But, I can speak for myself.

We are 22-10. And not being pessimistic but the odds are we will loose 11 games this year.
We finished tied for 7th in the ACC at 8-8
Had a 2-7 record against the ACC teams ahead of us or we were tied with
Had the lowest scoring avg in the conference
We lost in the first round, after leading, for the first time in who knows how long, and had won 6 of 7 sournaments or something like that.
And have had 3 and 4 game loosing streaks.
And lost to UNC twice

We are not accustomed to these stats. I doubt there is a Duke fan that was not frustrated at some point this year.

I just saw us go from leading the game to loosing. Many of us have been on the bandwagon of the bench. Not for 20 minutes for MT and Zou either. We had two on the bench with fouls and one out all together. I said a month or two ago in a thread you are preparing for the strecth run by playing and developing the bench. You are preparing for a game in the tournament when you have an injury or foul trouble.

The staff is great. Won more games than I and the rest of us. But, great leaders get the most out of someone. And before the 32nd game of the year.

[imagepro]

Call- I TOTALLY agreee that MP turns the ball over too much. I Do not argue that. I'm not saying he take ANYONES minutes specifically. I'm saying he gives us evergy. He plays with emotion. He plays with great confidence for a kid getting so little playing time. How many kids have you seen that can come in off the bench cold, and INSTANTLY take it to the rack with his offhand, get fouled and finish the play? Not many. VERY FEW in fact.

I have no idea if you are/were a competetive athlete or not, but I was starting DB on a state championship football team here in NC. IF you don't play with confidence, you play soft. Marty doesn't play soft. Confidence, and having the nerve to try what he does can seldom be coached. He wants to beat you. It's obvious. He wants to win. Few can COACH that into a kid.

To answer your question as to if I'm on board for the same minutes next week? YES SIR I AM. Why would I not be. Given the same time others have been given, I "think" MP would have exceeded some of their production. Please don't say I see something K doesn't see. It's just my opinion. I won't call names of who he could replace. I might question ANY coach, but I won't name the kids I think he should replace.

You know I don't think he will play perfect everytime. You KNOW that. Just becausee I say he can play doesn't mean I think he is perfect. But it is obvious I think he is better than you do.

[Duke05]

05 says-
"You know what happened today, right? We lost because we replaced Gerald Henderson's minutes with Marty Pocius's. Does that make Marty a worse player than Gerald? Of course not. It's just one game. But neither does this one performance mean he should have been taking minutes away earlier. And maybe -- just maybe -- our team was actually better at winning games with Marty off the floor."

I cannot believe what you just said. We lost because Marty was 4-4 from the field and 2-2 from the line? And "Maybe, just maybe--our team is better at winning games with marty off the floor". WOW.

I NEVER said Marty should replace GH. Never said that. I said he should play more, so Gh and others, can play more RESTED. UNC does it, Ohio State does it, MANY teams do it. I'm not smarter than Coach K. I just like Marty. And people always say, earn your playing time. Marty did tonight, and has on more than one occasion this season. I don't blast you because you think he shouldn't play. Why blast me because I think he should?

AS any fan around the country will tell you, depth is a problem for DUKE. My only point is that I think Marty should be playing more. I'm frustrated with the loss just as you are 05. You are not alone in your feelings. But you are attacking me AND Marty with the comments you make. YOU said right above, as I quoted, that we are better at winning games with Marty off the floor. That to me 05, is totally uncalled for. Especially from someone who says in another paragraph that you think he should be playing more. Well, which is it? Lose with him on the floor as YOU say, or play him more. Which DO you prefer?

Whoops. My brain thought one thing and I typed another. That should have read, "We lost while we replaced Gerald Henderson's minutes with Marty Pocius's." I didn't mean to blame Marty for the loss at all (which, as you've rightly pointed out, would have been pretty idiotic).

The point of that paragraph, which I rattled off too quickly, is that at the end of the day, we still lost. What I didn't want to do (and inadvertently did) was make a big deal out of our record being 0-1 when Marty plays a significant role. I was trying to point out the absurdity of using one game to support an argument.

Anyhow, we don't disagree as much as you think or as much as I managed to write above. To be perfectly clear, I'm not "blasting" you for opining that Marty should play more. (Like I said, that was my ill-informed opinion also.) I'm upset because I took your first post as gloating, and I'm upset because your tone implies that based on very little past evidence, you would have made better decisions than were made about Marty's playing time in the past.

As it turns out, you tell me that you weren't gloating, and I may be misreading your tone as well. So as much as you appear to be enjoying your license to be indignant, I don't think there's much more for us to say. I'm sorry to spoil your fun.

But I do apologize for the typo; I'm sure it happens to the best of us.

[trinitydevil]

[QUOTE=calltheobvious;4245]Nice strawman. No one here has ever argued that Marty is untalented, just that he turns the ball over waaaay too often given his production level,

This year

Paulus 1030 minutes/95 to's= 1 to every 10.8 minutes
Pocius 184 minutes/18 to's= 1 to every 10.2 minutes

Not too bad relatively speaking.

Players that drive to the basket commit turnovers. You can't commit turnovers standing in the corner.

Turnovers are like getting black eyes, busted lips, and scraped knees as a kid. The harder you play as a kid the more you things happen to you.

[imagepro]

LOL- you bet it does 05. And I really wasn't gloating. Like I said, UPSET. And you know wahat, I have never found anyone who can accurately hear "tone" from reading type. Reading between the lines, as I do sometimes, often leads to large errors.

Anyway, I'm glad it was a typo. I was worried about you man!

[imagepro]

Thank you trinitydevil for doing the research. You're WAY smarter than I am!
And you make me look good by doing so!

[trinitydevil]

Yeah, I know.

[Jumbo]

I ahte to say it Jumbo- but you are right. And I know who gave me 2 points! LOL

Huh? I'm right about what? Two points? Huh again?

[imagepro]

LOL- you didn't have to agree!

[DukeDevilDeb]

Imagepro:

Many of us have been watching Duke basketball for over two decades. What we have seen is nothing short of miraculous. Our record is the envy of everyone around, but unfortunately we hit a bump in the road this year in large part because three potentially great Devil players either were one and done or never even got here. Is that bad recruiting? No, not in this environment. It just happened. And I think we'll be better next year and even better the year after that... we need time, age, and experience. We sure don't have it now.

In addition, I worry much less about our shooting percentage (except for free throws; I always worry about that) than I do about the sudden loss of any ability to play defense. Defense is what Duke Basketball is built on. Do you know what the players look at just before they take the court in Cameron? They go through the Defense Room. On the walls hang pictures of Battier, Williams, Wojo and our other defensive players of the year (more, by the way than any 5 other teams combined!). They look at awards and quotes that focus on defense. They are told that defense is everything and that, from good defense, offense will come.

The team has stopped playing defense. Putting Marty in more would only lower a sagging defensive ability. As I said on another thread, I turned on the radio with 8 minutes left and the first two things I heard were "Marty turned the ball over" and "Marty fouled." He had a great offensive game tonight. Absolutely. But his defense is virtually non-existent.

I'm a pretty calm person and try to avoid getting into arguments on this board. I can disagree without fighting, and I can be right AND wrong and still maintain my calm. But it is getting to the point that when I see your handle in a thread, I want to immediately move to another. I know that if I read what you wrote, I will hear complaining, whining, bragging, whatever... none of which is constructive and all of which is not what DBR is made of.

You can disagree with others, just don't diss them. Try to keep your tone neutral, your comments limited to the game and not to personalities. You are allowed to criticize the coaches, but for heaven's sake, don't gloat when it appears that the game tonight proved your premise. By the way, Marty played a lot and we still lost.

I very much appreciate the moderators on DBR, and I hope that their judicious intervention can keep these boards what they have always been: a haven from the WE HATE DUKE attitude that is almost everywhere on the internet and in the media.

I hope the guys go home, rest, get over some of their bumps and bruises, and search their souls to find out where the defensive leak is. I don't expect miracles, but this team is too talented to get bounced out of the NCAAs in the first round.

Go Duke!

[JBDuke]

I won't defend why imagepro or anyone else might be upset and a little emotional right now.

But, I can speak for myself.

We are 22-10. And not being pessimistic but the odds are we will loose 11 games this year.
We finished tied for 7th in the ACC at 8-8
Had a 2-7 record against the ACC teams ahead of us or we were tied with
Had the lowest scoring avg in the conference
We lost in the first round, after leading, for the first time in who knows how long, and had won 6 of 7 sournaments or something like that.
And have had 3 and 4 game loosing streaks.
And lost to UNC twice

We are not accustomed to these stats.
....


You just described yourself as an incredibly spoiled Duke fan. My prescription - go read Al Featherston's article on DBR here (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=22050).

We have been incredibly blessed, as Duke fans, to have had the amazing run we've had over the last decade. It is unmatched in more than a generation of college hoops. This year is our worst since the 1995-6 down years, and it's still a season that puts us ahead of 9 out of 10 division 1 schools. Think there are UConn fans that would rather have Duke's season than theirs?

The truth is that this season has been about what I expected going into the year - and about what any knowledgeable fan with reasonable expectations should have anticipated also. If you thought Duke was easily #2 in the conference, and well ahead of BC, UVA, Va Tech, Md, etc., then you weren't paying attention. If you believed the top 10 rankings and such, ditto.

This season looked to be a struggle on many fronts, and some of the injuries and incidents along the way haven't helped. A young team is going to make for something of a roller coaster ride, and we've certainly had that. If you're asking why this had to happen, well, IMO, it happened because Coach K and the staff failed to anticipate the change in young players' attitudes about the pros, and they got caught shorthanded with what would have been our junior and senior classes this year. Well, this has changed. We've brought in two strong classes in a row, and next year's looks to be another good one. Duke will be better next year, Josh or no Josh, Patterson or no Patterson, Monroe or no Monroe. Duke will probably be even better the year after that. Maybe that will be enough to put a cork in the mouths of some of the simpering idiots we've had to deal with this year, but more than likely they'll start complaining about how we haven't won a championship in seven whole years now, or some such really stupid thing.

Meanwhile, I would appreciate it if you and the others that see all sorts of problems with the way Coach K and the staff have done their job this year, now that you've jumped off the bandwagon, would stop running alongside of it and yelling things at those of us that are still on it. You're spoiling what little fun we have left this year.

I really like this team. Yes, they don't win 'em all, and they make stupid mistakes now and then (and yes, that frustrates me), but I still love them, and I think we'll make our mark in the tournament before we bow out. It may only be to produce a great 8/9 game or to scare the daylights out of 2 seed in the second round, but I'll still be proud of my team. And I'm already excited about next year.

[mapei]

Deb, don't you think that Marty's defense has improved a lot? I do. I'm not sure the "good offense, lousy defense" label sticks to him as much as it did last year or early this year.

[heyman25]

Marty's performance was the most admirable performance of the night,but our matador defense got State the victory. They are much more likeable opponents than anyone else in the ACC. Its been a tough season. I hope Martynas gets some playing time and stays another year at Duke.

On Devils Beat they say it will take an Act of God for Josh to stay. Just to tip off this board

[Catman]

Per Blue Devil Weekly, Marty hasn't played more this year due to injury. Not Coach K's fault.

[jkidd31]

As frustrating as this season has been at times it beats 94-95 and 95-96. I have hopes this teams can still make a run in the tournament and they will be well rested which I think the guys need.

[trinitydevil]

[QUOTE=JBDuke;4329 "Meanwhile, I would appreciate it if you and the others that see all sorts of problems with the way Coach K and the staff have done their job this year, now that you've jumped off the bandwagon, would stop running alongside of it and yelling things at those of us that are still on it. You're spoiling what little fun we have left this year."


JBDuke, not meaning this sarcastic, honestly, but had you read, and maybe you did, but didn't realize what I was saying totally, you would have got my point.
Think about what I said and this too-imagepro was "upset" per Jumbo. Jumbo, told him to calm down,

What I was saying is we were winning, we lost, we had a mediocore year by our standards, it was about 10 minutes after the game. That is the point most would be upset and frustrated.

I wasn't on or off a band wagon, I was calling it like it is/was. If I was not a true fan, I wouldn't take 6 hours of my time round trip to go watch the games.

Are you not spoiled by the success either? Strictly from my perspective, I am required to spend a lot to be able to go to the games, not to mention the 6 hours round trip it takes to go there. If I hire a new salesperson for my company and invest money with him or her, I demand returns. for me and for their success. I invest for Duke, I expect returns as well.

At the end of each year, I can generally set back and say, well, if you had told me in the beginning we would finish first in the acc, loose only 6 games, win the acc tourney, make it to the sweet 16, or elite 8 etc, I would be happy with that. Just about every year I say that.

The kids played hard this year. I sit close enough to see it in there faces. I am proud of the kids. Were before tonight and will be if they loose next week by 38. I will always be on the players bandwagon.

[imagepro]

WHOA - JB DUKE, slow down there sir!

Since when does wanting Marty Pocious to play constitute jumping off the bandwagon? You like this team? So do I. But can I not want MP to play? Your comment of "running alongside the bandwagon" is, well, just 1- uncalled for, 2-inaccurate, 3- unfair, 4- Sarcastic 5-Hypocritical.

Hypocritical I say? Here is how. It's ok for you to think the staff is perfectly correct by not playing Marty, but not ok for us think Marty should play more. If not hypocritical, please just tell me what it is? Your way or the highway? I don't see how you say we're jumping, because we differ on strategy. Please explain why you call that jumping. Sorry, but I don't understand your reasoning in that comment.

[JBDuke]

....

Are you not spoiled by the success either? Strictly from my perspective, I am required to spend a lot to be able to go to the games, not to mention the 6 hours round trip it takes to go there. If I hire a new salesperson for my company and invest money with him or her, I demand returns. for me and for their success. I invest for Duke, I expect returns as well.

At the end of each year, I can generally set back and say, well, if you had told me in the beginning we would finish first in the acc, loose only 6 games, win the acc tourney, make it to the sweet 16, or elite 8 etc, I would be happy with that. Just about every year I say that.

The kids played hard this year. I sit close enough to see it in there faces. I am proud of the kids. Were before tonight and will be if they loose next week by 38. I will always be on the players bandwagon.

I hope I'm not spoiled by the success. I try not to be.

Since you go into a business analogy, while it's not my field, I'll use one back at you.

If you lost your two best salesmen in the same year, had no proven salesmen to move into those territories and therefore had to put inexperienced men into those positions, would you necessarily expect those territories to generate the same amount of business that year?

Every business has its ups and downs, just like every college basketball team. If you have a management team in place that has been #1 in their field over the last 20 years, do you start telling them how to do their job differently just because they have a bad year?

Since you invest time and money in your Duke fandom every year, do you consider yourself a long-term or a short-term investor? If the former, do you not see that the program is on solid footing, and that the future is indeed bright, despite a "disappointing" year? So, you had some big write-offs this year - you had to invest more of the profits to generate some growth - but that'll pay off over the next couple of years. Is this a bad thing?

You say you expect returns on your Duke investment. Haven't you been amply rewarded by that investment, year after year? Can you really say that your investment has been a loser? If so, I say get out while you can and let someone else have those seats.

Regarding expectations for this year, when I looked at things with what I think is a fairly experienced and knowledgeable fan's eye, I was expecting an ACC record somewhere between 8-8 and 10-6. We hit the low side of that, but we were also three missed layups from being 11-5, so I'm okay with that. We did better in non-conf than I expected. I figured on a lost to G'town, maybe a loss in the NIT finals, and maybe one more somewhere along the line - so 2 or 3 non-conf. losses instead of the 1 we've had so far. I did expect that we'd win an ACC tourney game, but that anything beyond that was gravy. Given how things worked out today, I'm only mildly disappointed. As for the NCAA's, I figured we'd do well to continue our Sweet 16 streak. I figured we'd win one, maybe two, but that would be about it. We still have a shot at that, especially if we can pull a 6 or 7 seed. I think we'll struggle if we fall to an 8 or 9, especially with our second game. But be assured, any one or two seed that sees us in their bracket is gonna gripe about it.

So, if I was a Duke "investor" (and I am, with time, some money, and LOTS of emotion), then I would have to say that this year has just about met my expectations, and I will hold onto my stock for the foreseeable future.

[imagepro]

Deb- How am I dissing anyone? I don't care if you move on or not. That's your option. But how have I "dissed" anyone. I want Marty to play. How is that Dissing someone. Please explain.

I've been watching DUKE athletic for 4 decades. But it doesn't matter if I, or you, started today. AS far as Martys' defense, i watched him CLOSELY off the ball tonight. If you did the same you wouldn't have made the comment you did about his defensive abilities!

And please also tell me Deb, how wanting a kid, any kid, to play, can be labeled as hating DUKE? With all due respect, I think you have completely missed the point.

[BluDvil03]

I've been watching DUKE athletic for 4 decades. But it doesn't matter if I, or you, started today. AS far as Martys' defense, i watched him CLOSELY off the ball tonight. If you did the same you wouldn't have made the comment you did about his defensive abilities!

Umm, I'm assuming you watched the game on TV since you posted so quickly afterwards. I was there in the Duke section (thanks to one of the mods here), and I saw something quite different regarding his defense. He looked better today than earlier in the season, to be sure, but he is by and large still lost on D. I think you could trace two or three of McRoberts and McClure's fouls to Marty's guy blowing by him, or to him failing to switch properly. What's more, he looks even more lost on inbounds plays (we had little chance to force a TO late in the game with our pressure). He literally seemed like he had to wait until everybody else had picked up a man before he knew who his assignment was.

[JBDuke]

WHOA - JB DUKE, slow down there sir!

Since when does wanting Marty Pocious to play constitute jumping off the bandwagon? You like this team? So do I. But can I not want MP to play?
...



Imagepro, my post was directed at trinitydevil, not at you. You're definitely on Marty's bandwagon, that's for sure, and most of the time, that's Duke's bandwagon, too. Sometimes, you want Marty to drive the Duke wagon, and many of us look at his driving record and ask you "why?", but it's clear you don't see the same things the rest of us do.

I'll not respond to the rest of your post, since you didn't understand who my initial response was aimed at.

[imagepro]

Ummm, yes I did watch on TV 03. First ACC I've missed in several years. Passed on tickets because I had other committments this year, and the travel. BUT no, I didn't see what you are describing, and I watched MP closely off the ball, and ddin't see people blow by him. If I can get a replay from someone, I will watch. One thing is for sure, while watching the game on tv has advantages of seeing replays etc, it pales to "BEING THERE".

But I tell you this much, I DID watch him in person in the Maryland game (and many others at Cameron) and he played not good defense, but excellent defense. Four rows up, across from the DUKE bench is a pretty good vantage point too. NO tonight I was NOT there. BUt I think he has been labeled, and not given credit for his efforts to improve.

Have fun in Tampa!

[fogey]

ALL YEAR Marty should have been rotated onto the floor IN BOTH HALVES to give a blow to others. As good as Jon Sheyer is, some of his minutes should be shaved, as he does not bring the same skill set to the game and he, like everyone else, has stretches of complete ineffectiveness. Whether anyone wants to admit it, kids who know they are on the floor for 35 minutes absolutey pace themselves and cannot go 100% every play. That is a fact and obvious in watching this team. Marty in for 20 minutes a game would have introduced a very healthy dynamic: needed rest for starters, and (for this team) a unique skill set of speed, quickness, offensive moves and shooting touch, and AGGRESSIVENESS.

[CMS2478]

that just bc ImagePro expresses his opinion about Marty's playing time everyone jumps on his case and says he "knows more than K." If stated my opinion that I don't like onions they are disgusting, would anyone really get offended and go out of their way to argue with me, probably not. However, if I say that I think Player X should get more playing time, it is a given that I obviously know more than Coach K and I am a negative Duke fan. Let's all just take a deep breath and realize that if you can't express your opinion freely (as long as it is not a personal attack on someone ) I ask like l have before.........what is this board for? ImagePro thinks Marty should play more, let him have his opinion without throwing him under the bus for it.

Good Day to All

[evrdukie]

Obviously I don't get to watch Pocius practicerevery day, like the coaching staff, but I've felt all year Duke would have been a better team if he were playing more. Last night's performance reinforced my opinion. If nothing else, he brings intensity and aggression that this team really needed.

[Matches]

I'm still interested to know whose minutes you want Marty to take. Tonight he took Gerald's (suspension) and DeMarcus's (after fouling out). You on board for keeping Marty's minutes next Thursday or Friday where they were tonight?

Jon Scheyer played 43 minutes against State. Even if the game hadn't gone into OT, his tally would've been 38. And he was obviously gassed at the end of the game, as has been the case on several occasions this year. Couldn't Marty take some of those minutes and help keep Scheyer fresh?

There's 200 minutes to go around, and even if we don't play Small Ball (which we did for lengthy stretches against NCSU), there are 120 minutes for the wing players. Paulus is going to play 35 of those at least, leaving 85 minutes for Nelson, Scheyer, Henderson, and Pocius. Is 30, 25, 20, and 10 unreasonable?

[CMS2478]

Sounds reasonable to me.

[Duke05]

that just bc ImagePro expresses his opinion about Marty's playing time everyone jumps on his case and says he "knows more than K." If stated my opinion that I don't like onions they are disgusting, would anyone really get offended and go out of their way to argue with me, probably not. However, if I say that I think Player X should get more playing time, it is a given that I obviously know more than Coach K and I am a negative Duke fan. Let's all just take a deep breath and realize that if you can't express your opinion freely (as long as it is not a personal attack on someone ) I ask like l have before.........what is this board for? ImagePro thinks Marty should play more, let him have his opinion without throwing him under the bus for it.

Good Day to All

I'm not sure this is fair. evrdukie just expressed that same opinion about Marty's playing time, and I doubt he'll get jumped on at all.

Instead, responses to imagepro were likely prompted by others' interpretations of his posts' tone. Others and I thought it was gloating; imagepro disagreed. That's fine; he wrote the post, so he can have it his way. But it should be pretty obvious that imagepro comes to the board with a pretty animated persona -- one that can occasionally be entertaining, occasionally be contagiously enthusiastic, and occasionally be strident and irritating. Particularly after a tough loss.

This isn't intended as a personal attack on imagepro. For the most part, I'm pretty indifferent to his posts and am entertained by a few of them. But I don't think anyone should be surprised when he gets a rise out of others; his style makes this inevitable.

[Cavlaw]

For all the post-game comments about the team not talking on defense, there was one voice I heard loud and clear on the TV over and over again: Marty.

Unfortunately it was always when we were on offense... Still it seemed like the kid was constantly open for a baseline 3, but only got the ball a few times. When he did, he showed good judgment on shot selection (i.e., take the shot or drive if the defense rolled out too quickly). I have to wonder if he might have had quite a few more points if some more of the drives into traffic has been kicked out to him?

No way to know, but I was happy for him having such a good game. Would have been a great night for him if they had managed to pull out the win.

[CMS2478]

I will accept your opinion on the matter bc, afterall it is a public message board and you are allowed to state your opinion. And I am not trying to be sarcastic at all bc I don't want my tone to be taken the wrong way. I can honestly see how people can take posts the wrong way bc it is impossible to understand the tone with posts. There have been many times I have posted things and then when I go back and read I think " that sounds a little arrogant or critical." I just think that ImagePro was saying that he, like many others thought Marty should be playing more and his play last night proved what he can do IF given the chance.

[imagepro]

you're right about going offense/defense--- Geez man, you said it right above. I can't even agree with you? And you go huh? Whatever

[imagepro]

Well said Fogey. I'll take all the criticism from others though. But thanks for echoeing my feelings and expressing it better.

[imagepro]

sounds resonable to me too.

[imagepro]

JB- I knew your post was at trinity. He nor anyone else jumped off the bandwagon. C'mon man.

[imagepro]

Woody and Eric Montross raved about Pocious after the game, according to a bigtime UNC football guy. He called me this morning, and said Woody and ERic said, "if there was an all tournament team after one day, Pocious would be on it".. Now I didn't hear it, but the guy who told me is honest and very respectable. Pretty sad that the UNC radio network sings his praises, and our fans question how he could play more! Take a moment and consider that, those of you who are saying he can't get more time.

[Grey Devil]

I find all this entire discussion about whether Marty should or should not play to be totally uninformed. And it’s ironic that I have to bring this to people’s attention because I live in California, a continent away from the action.

Don’t any of you watch Coach K’s weekly TV show? Thanks to DirecTV and Tivo I get to see it every week. Many weeks the show features a particular player on the team. Last week’s episode had a feature about Marty. Coach K specifically talked about how much Marty has contributed to the program and explained that he hadn’t been able to play as much as either he or K would like because he has been suffering from foot injuries all year. K went on to say that Marty was only now recovering and has only recently been able to play more minutes.

That explained to me a lot about Marty’s time. But it also explained a lot to me about how inane and stupid some of the arguments on this board can get. I am particularly upset by the tone of the “discussions” that some threads take on this board. People get so ingrained in a particular point of view that it becomes a “my way or the highway” type of attitude. I am particularly upset by the “arrogance without information or knowledge” that both sides took on this specific issue. Everyone seems to think they know the truth, when it appears to me that no one knew (or if they did, didn’t want to get into the middle of what appears to be a really stupid cat fight). Well I’m going to get in the middle and try to clear the air about the emotions in this thread.

I have found that the tone of the first message or next few immediately thereafter often set the tone for the rest of the discussion in any given thread (on any bulletin board system, not just DBR). In this case I found ImagePro’s initial posting on to be a sort of a playground taunt, like a “Na-na-na-na-na, I know more than you do!” And it continues through to his latest posting about how Woody Durham and Eric Montross raved about Pocius, leading me to the conclusion that his message is effectively saying “If even Carolina fans praise Pocius then the rest of you who don’t do so must be idiots.” He doesn’t say those exact words, but that’s the message he’s giving. (And if you can’t recognize that, ImagePro, then you really are the childish playground bully your posts often portray you as.)

Everyone needs to take a “chill pill” as my then teen-age daughter used to tell me and look at the facts. Pocius has been injured most of the season and that’s why he’s not playing. There it is, plain and simple. All this debate is moot.

Perhaps the emotion in this thread is high because we lost last night. But that happens. Now is especially the time to focus on the positive. Not fight each other on matters that most seem to be uniformed about. Let’s get back to business. We have a tournament to focus on. Let’s do that instead of squabbling like a bunch of elementary school kids. I’m sure that’s what K and the team will be doing.

Grey Devil

[CMS2478]

He hasn't been hurt the whole year, he was out for like 1 or 2 games.........and his defense it MUCH BETTER........so next excuse!!!

[Matches]

Very possible that Pocius has had nagging foot problems that haven't been widely reported. Presumably if he's healing now, and particularly after last night's performance, he will be getting more burn from here forward. We'll see if that transpires.

[imagepro]

Hows the surf in Cali grey? I love it out there. Used to surf Trestles and Oceanside a lot. Anyway----So what if I want Marty to play more. Many of us do. And yes we know of his injury, but we also watch him in games and he has moved quite well this season.

If I want to argue and have fun here, that's my option. If people get upset at my "tone", that's their right. I can't change your mind, or anyone elses for that matter. Nor do I have any real desire to do so. Saying " I rest my case" is neither gloating or chanting "na-na-na na- na", as you like to say. It means I think my point was validated. If you or someone else interprets it differently, well that's your mistake.

Some members here have criticized Marty for 2 years, and sometimes STRONGLY. Now he is labeled as a bad defender. I disagee. But I'm the bad one, huh Grey? You guys keep criticizing the kids and they're all going to leave!

[Classof06]

Just to be sure, anybody attacking Marty for his defense against NCSU needs to understand that absolutely NOBODY on Duke's team played good defense last night. Not for the whole game at least....

[dukechem]

Hey Grey Devil,

I like your avitar. I sent that picture and some others to DBR some time ago. I'm glad to see someone took notice. Were you at Duke in the late 60s?

dukechem

[Highlander]

What it sounds like you're saying is that Coach K lied about Marty's health on his weekly TV show. Is that what you meant to say?

[Cavlaw]

What it sounds like you're saying is that Coach K lied about Marty's health on his weekly TV show. Is that what you meant to say?
Funny, that's exactly what it sounded like to me.

Thanks for the post, Grey, I didn't know that about Marty. Given how good he looked last night, I'm relieved to hear that there was another factor in his low game PT, and look forward to seeing how he contributes next season.

[CMS2478]

that is exactly what I meant.............NO!!! I was not insuating Coach K was lying but if he is available to play he is available to play. I mean after all Marty did play some minutes which means he is ok to play. I love it when people put words in mouth. :D

[imagepro]

Oh it happends to me all the time CMS... BUt I'm the sarcastic one!

Pot, meet Mr Kettle.......

[coot]

ImagePro, I've not followed all of your commentary...but if you indeed have been saying Marty should play more all year, then hats off to you.

Marty showed a lot last night. Our guards played well last night. Paulas, Scheyer, Nelson, Marty all had good games. Too bad that McRoberts and Lance couldn't hold down the inside.

Very, very happy for Marty.

coot

[Jumbo]

that is exactly what I meant.............NO!!! I was not insuating Coach K was lying but if he is available to play he is available to play. I mean after all Marty did play some minutes which means he is ok to play. I love it when people put words in mouth. :D

I can confirm that his ankle had been badly messed up for much of the year. Just because he could play a few minutes didn't mean he could handle a heavier workload. And it also might have meant he wasn't able to play up to his potenial. If he's healthier now, that obviously makes a big difference.

[imagepro]

I'm happy for him too Coot. I have been saying that, and have caught heck for it, I can assure you! But I'm FAR from alone in this thinking.

Some poeple just don't see it though, and maybe they are right. But I for one, think not.

[Grey Devil]

Hows the surf in Cali grey? I love it out there. Used to surf Trestles and Oceanside a lot. Anyway----So what if I want Marty to play more. Many of us do. And yes we know of his injury, but we also watch him in games and he has moved quite well this season.

If I want to argue and have fun here, that's my option. If people get upset at my "tone", that's their right. I can't change your mind, or anyone elses for that matter. Nor do I have any real desire to do so. Saying " I rest my case" is neither gloating or chanting "na-na-na na- na", as you like to say. It means I think my point was validated. If you or someone else interprets it differently, well that's your mistake.

Some members here have criticized Marty for 2 years, and sometimes STRONGLY. Now he is labeled as a bad defender. I disagee. But I'm the bad one, huh Grey? You guys keep criticizing the kids and they're all going to leave!

Surf’s always better here than in NoCaro, Image. :rolleyes:

Now I understand why Jumbo goes so crazy trying to respond to your posts, Image. If you knew all along that Marty was injured why didn’t you include that in your postings about him? It would have only made your arguments for his value to the team stronger. “Look how fast he is, even with his injury. Think how much he could add if he were only healthier!” Instead it appears that you only now are saying that you knew all along.

You say that it's your option if you want to argue have fun here. But my take on your idea of having fun is that you like to see how far you can go in upsetting people on this board, so you can laugh at them when they express dismay or disagree with you. I think it’s a pretty sick way to have fun.

Finally, Image, although I’ve never said anything until today about Pocius (in fact, this is only my third post since we’ve gone to the new board so I have no record for you to base your judgment on) you lumped me in as a critic of Pocius when you said, “You guys keep criticizing the kids and they’re all going to leave!” I wasn’t criticizing Pocius. In fact, I was explaining that his performance has been impacted by an injury. And truth be told, I was actually criticizing you! Nice attempt to deflect it away, making it seem like I was criticizing Marty or the team instead of criticizing you, but it didn’t work this time.

I happen to like Marty a lot. I think he brought a lot of energy and quickness to the game last night and his play offensively was such a contrast to the rest of the team (I voted for him for POG) that he was like a hot knife cutting through warm butter. I'm looking forward to seeing his contributions to the team the rest of this season and next year when he's healthier.

Grey Devil

[imagepro]

See it as you wish. But I didn't mean YOU specifically as far as Marty is concerned. I mean so many people bash kids, and think K is perfect. He's not. I never criticize a kid, and I won't.

Last year, and earlier this, I read some horrible crap on here about Marty. Terrible. People asking what he could do for this team. Saying he was too slow, that he didn't work hard in practice or he would be playing. CRAP. And no I don't like it. When he played great last night, even though we lost, I was jubilant for him. After all that's been said on here about him, no one deserved it more.

Marty was injured for 2, 3 games max. I'm sure if he was not able to play, he would not have been practicing, dressing out, and playing in games. If so, that would be putting a kids career in jeopardy, would it not? If you agree, he must have been ready for duty, as he did play up to 6 minutes on a few occasions. If he was hurt, then he had no business entering the game at all. I don't think you would disagree with that.

AS far as the surf always being better there. NOT always. I've spent a lot of time in OCeanside & San Diego. Surfed Mission Beach, Blacks, San Onofre, Trestles, Oceanside. Hatteras gets just as good. If you send me your e-mail in private message, I'll send you some stuff I just shot there for Surfer Magazine. I think you'd change your impression of East Coast surf. You just have to know where to go. -- Best Regards-- IP

[imagepro]

If a player is injured and a coach uses him, that coach is putting a kids career in jeopardy. Do you agree or diagree. Just asking your opinion.

I think CMS is right when he says Marty was OK to play. I think Coah K knows better than to practice and play a kid who is injured. And you say his ankle was "badly messed up". Elaborate, as we would like to hear what you know. I thought he had a mild ankle sprain several weeks back, and the lingering problem was his knee..

[Duke15304]

to keep himself under control liked he did in the 2nd half unlike the first, he can be a real factor

[imagepro]

I agree Mike, he does play a litte out of control sometimes. I "think" that's because he's simply trying too hard to show what he can do. He needs to let the game come to him, and he can be special, imho.......