Marty Pocius's PT, collector thread

[heifer]

Anybody else at GPSC campout yesterday notice that Pocius wasn't with the team with Coach K introduced them? I find it funny that K didn't mention that he wasn't there either. A friend told me that he saw Marty around campus recently. Anyone know if he might be red-shirting this season?

[VaDukie]

Haven't heard any rumors about that, but who knows.

[Ignatius07]

Even if he were red-shirting, he'd still be with the team. I would say I wish that K would red-shirt Pocius, but I'm not sure how much it would matter. We are absolutely loaded at that position for the next couple years, even if we don't land E. Williams.

[dukeENG2003]

I was too drunk to notice at the time, but now that you mention it, thats true. I certainly hope Marty can contribute this year, he's shown flashes of briliance, but so far, they've been only that, flashes. . .

[mapei]

I hope this gets cleared up. Duke hasn't been the greatest fit for Marty, but I really like his enthusiasm.

[speedevil]

Hocus Pocius

[Cameron]

I was just watching the NC State ACC Tournament game the other day, and, if Marty could play with the type of aggression and poise he did that night, on a regular basis, he could be one hell of a player. He was the ONLY reason that game entered an extra period. No one else decided to show up in those final few minutes of regulation.

However, Marty will sit the bench once again. We mise well not even discuss him and his chances of playing. They are non-existent at this point. There's just too many quality guards in front of him. That, unfortunately, will be the story of his career in Durham, I am afraid to say.

The only way I see him getting quality minutes is if DeMarcus or Greg fall prey to more injuries (dear God, please let us hope not). Aside from that, I just don't see it.

[jimsumner]

"There's just too many quality guards in front of him. That, unfortunately, will be the story of his career in Durham, I am afraid to say."

Yes, because nobody ever improved or moved up the depth chart.

[wilson]

Hocus Pocius

I'd like for him to become a more prominent player if only this can be added to the Cameron canon. I love this.

[Cameron]

Yes, because nobody ever improved or moved up the depth chart.

Well, "nobody" was never named Marty Pocius. It is very clear that Coach K is not going to add him into the regular rotation anytime soon. That is pretty much a fact at this point. Coach K has already proved in the past that he has Marty on a very, very short leash, no matter what he does out on the court, and, with Greg, Jon, Gerald, DeMarcus, and Nolan all filling time at the guard slot, there isn't much reason to believe this will change.

In my opinion, I would honestly like to see the kid transfer. Pocius has loads of potential, and, with the right team and setting--at a place where he could get the true amount of playing time a Division I player needs in order to take his game to the next level--I think he could be a 15, 16 point a night guy. Perhaps an A-10 school or somewhere in the C-USA.

At Duke, however, I don't see him getting any type of legitimate shot. Sorry.

[Indoor66]

IMO, Marty's career success is up to Marty.

[jimsumner]

Cameron, time may well prove you correct. But I find it depressing that a Duke fan would give up on a rising junior who played hurt much of his sophomore year either because the fan thinks Pocius is incapable of improving or because the fan thinks Krzyzewski is incapable of acknowledging that improvement. I could give plenty of examples to the contrary but I sense that your mind is made up on this.

Pity.

[Clipsfan]

Aside from all the speculation about whether Marty could crack the playing lineup, does anyone know why he wasn't introduced? I hope that he's going to be around this year, I've always been a fan.

[duketaylor]

It's my understanding Marty's been shooting alot, is going to class, etc. So nothing, it seems, to worry about. I wish him well.

[Cameron]

Don't get me wrong, Jim, I would love to see Marty break the rotation. I love his game (when he is playing under control) and think it could really fit well into our (hopefully) push the ball up the court, fast-break philosophy this season. Marty may not be the greatest stand still shooter or best defender, but he really can play open court basketball. IMO, it is what he excels at best.

However, with all the competition Marty is facing right now at his position, I just don't see him playing anymore than he did a year ago. Do I not think Marty is good enough to join that competition or to play to their level? Certainly not. Marty has the tools to be a very good player; he just needs to polish them a little. IMO, I think Marty's defensive liability out on the court is just too much of a risk in Coach K's eyes. Now some argue that this can't be the case, as guys like JJ Redick and Greg Paulus, early in their career's, cleary were not wizards of defense, either. However, Marty isn't a great outside shooter (unlike JJ during his woeful freshman defensive years) or our mainstay point guard (like Greg Paulus), so Marty's lack of defensive ability is still going to hurt his chances of playing significant minutes, unlike the aforementioned two.

Can Marty overcome his sometimes uncontrolled, almost hyper-kintetic play this season, and add a little defense to his arsenal as well? Hopefully. Because then there would be no excuses whatsoever as to why he is not playing.

I'm not trying to attack your opinion here, Jim, just simply giving my own. It might be wrong, but it's how I veiw the situation (for now, at least).

[throatybeard]

I move that we establish a postseason award for most-fetishized bench player.

I just can't decide whether we should call the award the Casey or the Marty.

[VaDukie]

I move that we establish a postseason award for most-fetishized bench player.

I just can't decide whether we should call the award the Casey or the Marty.

Don't you think it should be the Nick or the Marty? ;)

[RepoMan]

The leaves are changing colors.

Football is on tv.

Kids are in school.

And the odes to Marty Pocius have begun.


Must be time for hoops to start

[OldPhiKap]

I move that we establish a postseason award for most-fetishized bench player.

I just can't decide whether we should call the award the Casey or the Marty.


Marty doesn't foul.

But it would have to be the "Koubek" or the "Heaps" award.

[SilkyJ]

In my opinion, I would honestly like to see the kid transfer. Pocius has loads of potential, and, with the right team and setting--at a place where he could get the true amount of playing time a Division I player needs in order to take his game to the next level--I think he could be a 15, 16 point a night guy. Perhaps an A-10 school or somewhere in the C-USA.

At Duke, however, I don't see him getting any type of legitimate shot. Sorry.

You may be right but there are two BIG things I think you are forgetting:

#1 is what Jim said: he has been injured and we dont really know what he's capable of.

#2 (and this is selfish, but) Even if matter is way down on the depth chart this year, we will lose demarcus after this year and its certainly possible that G-Money could go to the L (I dont think he will, i'm just saying its possible) so that would make his main competition Scheyer and to a lesser extent Nolan. As a senior he would definitely see quite a bit of time within that rotation. Not to mention I would personally want him to stay around as a buffer just in case that unfortunate scenario does pan out...

[JasonEvans]

Don't you think it should be the Nick or the Marty? ;)

No, the award for the player who looks amazing in pickup games leading to predictions of greatness that never come true is The Nick.

--Jason "ahhh Nick, we'll always have DePaul!" Evans

[SilkyJ]

No, the award for the player who looks amazing in pickup games leading to predictions of greatness that never come true is The Nick.

--Jason "ahhh Nick, we'll always have DePaul!" Evans

I almost wish we never had depaul. That game gave him a 4 year license to shoot 3s...only he couldn't shoot 3s.

[Classof06]

Personally, I have absolutely no idea why Krzyzewski isn't comfortable with Pocius in the game. I don't think Marty should be starting, but I do believe he should be getting more minutes that he's been getting. I don't think I've ever seen Krzyzewski have as short a leash with any of his other players.

I think the idea that his defense isn't good enough is an outdated excuse. First of all, I don't think we as Duke fans have seen Pocius play consistently enough through the years to say his defense isn't that good; I can't remember ever seeing Marty play more than 6 game minutes at a time. I also don't see how Pocius can be called a defensive liability when Paulus can't even guard the other team's PG. Not to rip Greg, but if we're calling out people for being defensive liabilities, Paulus is probably the, or a, chief offender. I think this Pocius being a defensive liability thing is something that started during my years on campus and has now become the easy, de facto answer to why we don't see him play. Personally, I'm done buying it.

I think Marty's lack of PT has to do with the fact that we're just loaded at the 2 and 3 spots. Furthermore, if he couldn't crack the rotation when Henderson and Scheyer were freshman and we had the youngest team in K's tenure, he ain't gonna crack it now. Marty played great against NC State, but the only reason you saw him was because the ACC suspended Gerald. I like Marty, and if he does crack the rotation, that can only be a good thing for both him and the team. But I wouldn't bet on it. Not every scholarship player gets minutes, guys. It's just the way it is...

[OldPhiKap]

I almost wish we never had depaul. That game gave him a 4 year license to shoot 3s...only he couldn't shoot 3s.

I seem to remember a big game against WF where he hit some big 'uns. Actually, I seem to recall a pretty good stretch (maybe 4 or 5 games) where he was one of our more consistent outside shooters because the other teams left him open.

[ACCBBallFan]

It appeared K might have been willing to play Marty last year had it not been for the chronic ankle injuries.

Not sure either one of them are going to get a lot of minutes, but Marty might actually help Zoubek if they are on the floor at same time.

If Zoubs can establish decent post position as my guess (and only a guess since no one but the people in closed practice have seen him enough to know) is that Marty may play the Euro style and look more to the post than Duke players typically do.

Marty along with several others might be able to slash to the basket if Zoubek can learn to either shoot or pass rather than dribble which negates his tremendous height advantage by giving all 5 defenders easy access to the ball.

[Carlos]

No, the award for the player who looks amazing in pickup games leading to predictions of greatness that never come true is The Nick.

--Jason "ahhh Nick, we'll always have DePaul!" Evans

Wait a second... we could easily call this The Shav or The Taymon award as well.

[yancem]

I almost wish we never had depaul. That game gave him a 4 year license to shoot 3s...only he couldn't shoot 3s.

You're absolutely correct that he couldn't shoot but if memory serves correctly, he was touted as a solid outside shooter coming out of high school. Which leads me to ask why does it seem like every couple of years Duke recruits the next "Christian Laettner", a 6'10-6'11 forward/center with a solid outside shot and then when they reach campus it's brick city. Joey Beard, Chris Burgess, Shav, and McBob all fir this mold. Now I'm scared to death that Singler is going to come in loose his ability to hit the outside shot too.

[VaDukie]

You're absolutely correct that he couldn't shoot but if memory serves correctly, he was touted as a solid outside shooter coming out of high school. Which leads me to ask why does it seem like every couple of years Duke recruits the next "Christian Laettner", a 6'10-6'11 forward/center with a solid outside shot and then when they reach campus it's brick city. Joey Beard, Chris Burgess, Shav, and McBob all fir this mold. Now I'm scared to death that Singler is going to come in loose his ability to hit the outside shot too.

Singler is really a guard in a forward's body, something like Dunleavy. He should be alright.

[yancem]

Singler is really a guard in a forward's body, something like Dunleavy. He should be alright.

That's what I'm hoping!

[JasonEvans]

I almost wish we never had depaul. That game gave him a 4 year license to shoot 3s...only he couldn't shoot 3s.

After hitting 18-50 (36%) his freshman season, Nick hit 1-for-21 3s as a soph (after the medical redshirt year), 8-for-34 as a junior, and 1-for-7 as a senior.

Gaaaack!!

--Jason "I think I could hit 2-for-21" Evans

[jimsumner]

Nick put on about 40 pounds of muscle between his good-from-the-perimeter days and his not-so-good from the perimeter days. I suspect the two are not unrelated.

[RWD]

You're absolutely correct that he couldn't shoot but if memory serves correctly, he was touted as a solid outside shooter coming out of high school. Which leads me to ask why does it seem like every couple of years Duke recruits the next "Christian Laettner", a 6'10-6'11 forward/center with a solid outside shot and then when they reach campus it's brick city. Joey Beard, Chris Burgess, Shav, and McBob all fir this mold. Now I'm scared to death that Singler is going to come in loose his ability to hit the outside shot too.

Yancem, you hit on something that's bugged me for several years. I think that it may even go back to Ferry, but I agree that we have gotten more of our share of "next Laettners" who don't pan out the way we'd hope. (Of course, it's similar to being cursed with the "next Jordan" label; there's no way anyone can live up to those expectations.) I think what a lot of these 6'10"/6'11" high school kids who are in love with their jump shot forget, though, is that Laettner, to use K's unprintable description, was a m***********. Everyone remembers the 17 footer against Kentucky, the "special" jumper against UConn, and those threes against LSU, but they forget that he's number 3 on the career rebounding list among Duke players, number 17 in career rebound average, number 1 in free throws made and number 1 in free throw attempts. You don't get those results by drifting around the three point line; you get them by rolling up your sleeves and doing the dirty work in the paint.

RWD

[Patrick Yates]

First, can a Mod take all this Nick nonsense, and the most fetishized bench player mess, and move them to separate threads. Honestly, back in the old days I accepted that threads would go off the rails at some point, but the point of the moderator system, and it may be the only positive point, is that there are other people capable of getting the post back on target. Which is Pocius.

That said, K plays favorites. Every coach, since the dawn of organized sports, has played favorites. The coach sees something in the kid's game, or personality, that the coach identifies with. Heck, sometimes a coach just likes a kid better for no reason. Every coach does it. Every person on the planet does it. There are people at my office that I like, and people I do not like. My reasons for this seem reasonable to me, but probably sound like insanity to outsiders.

K has favorites on the squad. If you are not one of his favorites, or, more accurately, if you are one of his not-favorites (ie in the dog-house), you are completely fornicated at Duke. Now, even though I may not always agree with K's favorites, he is the successful coach, so I will give him the benefit of the doubt. But, once his favor is lost, it is almost never regained. See Ricky Price, Burgess, Randolf, Boateng, etc. Honestly, once a player realized he is out of the rotation (more specifically, on the Poo-list), he should transfer from Duke. K will never let a peritmeter player, other than the primary PG, learn on the job. Wings will never be allowed to play mistake heavy minutes to learn. In fact, only PGs (cause it is a hard job, and it is hard to always bring in a kid who is ready to go from day 1) and posts (again, hard position) will be allowed to learn on the job. But, the posts have a much, much shorter leash than do PGs.

We may not like it, but K has his favorites. They will play the vast, vast majority of minutes. This has served K well in the past, and it won't change anytime soon.

Patrick Yates

[RelativeWays]

Most of the players you listed above tended to have attitude problems to go along with the inconsistent play (of which, Greg Newton was the paradigm). I think K may be wary of Marty's inconsistencies and turnovers, but he has to love Marty's enthusiasm. He doesn't strike me as a doghouse type player. Maybe he'll be like Lee and have a breakout junior year.

[dukeENG2003]

I'm not buying the doghouse theory. Sure, you can't play mistake filled minutes out there for K, b/c if you are, that probably means you're playing mistake filled practices, which is why you aren't on the floor in the first place.

Anytime a player gets in the "doghouse", the easy way to get out of it is to practice your way out of it, get the minutes that are associated with that, and then make good on the time you get on the floor.

Its easy to critique K and say he plays favorites, but unless you get to see how he PRACTICES, you're basing your opinion on very limited data (a whopping 6.1 mpg) instead of the much larger amount of time that K gets to see him play. I believe this is why there is such a correlation between attitude problems and those who made it into the doghouse; and its why I think Pocius will eventually make it out of the doghouse, and log some minutes.

[SilkyJ]

You're absolutely correct that he couldn't shoot but if memory serves correctly, he was touted as a solid outside shooter coming out of high school. Which leads me to ask why does it seem like every couple of years Duke recruits the next "Christian Laettner", a 6'10-6'11 forward/center with a solid outside shot and then when they reach campus it's brick city. Joey Beard, Chris Burgess, Shav, and McBob all fir this mold. Now I'm scared to death that Singler is going to come in loose his ability to hit the outside shot too.

That's a real good point. I think its often b/c of our lack of depth in the post that forces us to make these guys bangers. Boozer needed a backup and all we had was Casey or the walk-on Monster Christiansen, so Nick would often have to fill that role. Same with Sheld/Shav.

I don't recall Burgess being known for his outside shot, and mcbob was definitely never known for his...

[EarlJam]

Wait a second... we could easily call this The Shav or The Taymon award as well.

Yes. Definitely "The Shav." Maybe even, "The Newt."

"Yes, but he showed flashes of brilliance last year. Just wait until NEXT year!"

Rinse, repeat over two-three seasons.

-EarlJam

[EarlJam]

After hitting 18-50 (36%) his freshman season, Nick hit 1-for-21 3s as a soph (after the medical redshirt year), 8-for-34 as a junior, and 1-for-7 as a senior.

Gaaaack!!

--Jason "I think I could hit 2-for-21" Evans

Wow, interesting. Nick really DID suck at threes!

-EarlJam

[EarlJam]

I think what a lot of these 6'10"/6'11" high school kids who are in love with their jump shot forget, though, is that Laettner, to use K's unprintable description, was a m***********. Everyone remembers the 17 footer against Kentucky, the "special" jumper against UConn, and those threes against LSU, but they forget that he's number 3 on the career rebounding list among Duke players, number 17 in career rebound average, number 1 in free throws made and number 1 in free throw attempts. You don't get those results by drifting around the three point line; you get them by rolling up your sleeves and doing the dirty work in the paint.

RWD

Preach it Brother!

Laettner 10:32 - Thou shalt have no other bad a** center/forwards at Duke like me, after me. I am Alpha and Omega and all that.

Laettner was not "a" mother*******. He was "THE" mother*******.

Fortunately for Duke fans, at the same time, Duke had the guard mother******** equivalent in one Bobby Hurley.

-Earljam

[ACCBBallFan]

I'm not buying the doghouse theory. Sure, you can't play mistake filled minutes out there for K, b/c if you are, that probably means you're playing mistake filled practices, which is why you aren't on the floor in the first place.

Anytime a player gets in the "doghouse", the easy way to get out of it is to practice your way out of it, get the minutes that are associated with that, and then make good on the time you get on the floor.

Its easy to critique K and say he plays favorites, but unless you get to see how he PRACTICES, you're basing your opinion on very limited data (a whopping 6.1 mpg) instead of the much larger amount of time that K gets to see him play. I believe this is why there is such a correlation between attitude problems and those who made it into the doghouse; and its why I think Pocius will eventually make it out of the doghouse, and log some minutes.I think we may see more guys work their way from practice team into starting lineup for a given opponent than in past years.

The reason - depth.

It's hard to stand out in practice on a weak second team, because the first stringers know where the threats are and hedge accordingly.

Now that the first team and second team whoever they turn out to be are relatively even, each guy has a chance to show his stuff. King for example will command a defender and open things up in the middle for Zoubek/Lance.

If Greg-Jon are not getting it done against quick guards, that will be more obvious in practice with Nolan-Gerald-Marty and Nelson only able to guard one of them.

With Marty injured last year, Jordan Davidson (teamed with Henderson means they hedge towrds Gerald) is not the threat to penetrate past Greg-Jon like Nolan-Marty-Gerald will be.

[Chard]

I think what may be lost in all of this discussion is that K can learn new tricks as well. The USA BB experience has to have taught him something. We've seen the style of play that was dictated by the extreme amount of talent on the entire team. That amount of talent dictates that everyone be utilized to some extent.

What I'm saying is that we may see a bit of a different approach this season. Not a complete 180 but we'll see what K has learned from the international competition. Marty can only benefit from this if you ask me.:)

[ACCBBallFan]

I think what may be lost in all of this discussion is that K can learn new tricks as well. The USA BB experience has to have taught him something. We've seen the style of play that was dictated by the extreme amount of talent on the entire team. That amount of talent dictates that everyone be utilized to some extent.

What I'm saying is that we may see a bit of a different approach this season. Not a complete 180 but we'll see what K has learned from the international competition. Marty can only benefit from this if you ask me.:) I agree with you, Chard, both on the perhaps more flexible approach K may take and the appreciation for Euro style potentially helping Marty's PT.

Who knows, he might even have less distaste for zone defense after coaching with Jim Boeheim, though many say his man to man employs zone concepts anyway.

Not so much in the Americas qualifiers, but in the round before, he also played two platoons quite a bit when faced with how to spread PT among too much talent. Dwayne Wade for example was on the second platoon. Then when games were closer, he combined the squads and went with his best 7 or 8 more.

Problem is this year, hard to tell who that best 7 or 8 may be as there are no Lebron's and Melo's and Wade's that stand out, just 11 very good players who each have something very positive to offer and each lacks something that if they had it would make them unanimous starter, like a Tyler or a Lawson.

I do not think there is one Duke player who all DBR posters acknowledge is a starter, though most of it seems to boil down to either a Scheyer vs Henderson discussion, or whether to play both of them and play micro small versus playing either Zoubek or Lance with Singler for more height. Wasted energy as both will play 25 - 30 minutes regardless of who starts.

My guess is the three least controversial given the roster composition are Nelson the senior captain best defender, Paulus the leader, high percentage shooter, and Singler, with the only knock being freshman unknown.

Good arguments can certainly be made for Scheyer and/or Henderson, for Lance due to height and athleticism, for Zoubek the lone truly post sized player, for Nolan based on potential and scrimmage video, for King based on bombadier credentials, for Marty based on NC State performance and vastly improved defense and for McClure based on years in the Duke system.

I'm not even sure we will know much from the Blue-White game which unit K is likely to start. Sometimes he mixes and matches for equal scoring and other times he gives an indication of future starters.

[tarasoccer04]

1) He wasn't introduced because he was with me, his girlfriend, in my hometown for my dad's birthday.
2) How can you be serious about all of your 'facts' about Coach K, who he's going to play and how badly Marty should transfer? He was hurt ALL of last season, he's a completely different player now, dominating most of the practices. Don't speculate, just wait for the season...

[Clipsfan]

1) He wasn't introduced because he was with me, his girlfriend, in my hometown for my dad's birthday.
2) How can you be serious about all of your 'facts' about Coach K, who he's going to play and how badly Marty should transfer? He was hurt ALL of last season, he's a completely different player now, dominating most of the practices. Don't speculate, just wait for the season...

I hope he does dominate; he has showed great flashes of athleticism and scoring ability. I also hope that he has continued to improve his defense. I've always rooted for him and think that he can really help over the next two years, especially in a run 'n gun style.

[VaDukie]

1) He wasn't introduced because he was with me, his girlfriend, in my hometown for my dad's birthday.
2) How can you be serious about all of your 'facts' about Coach K, who he's going to play and how badly Marty should transfer? He was hurt ALL of last season, he's a completely different player now, dominating most of the practices. Don't speculate, just wait for the season...

Telling this board not to speculate is quite a futile task.

Hope Marty's fully recovered from his surgery - few things would make this masses on this board happier than to see him get significant PT.

[OldPhiKap]

1) He wasn't introduced because he was with me, his girlfriend, in my hometown for my dad's birthday.
2) How can you be serious about all of your 'facts' about Coach K, who he's going to play and how badly Marty should transfer? He was hurt ALL of last season, he's a completely different player now, dominating most of the practices. Don't speculate, just wait for the season...

Marty is all upside. I'm stoked for a big break-out! I don't understand all the negativity about a kid who brings so much energy to the floor every time he steps out there. If McBob had half the heart of this kid, he'd have been a lotto choice easily.

tarasoccer, make sure Marty stays healthy. We're counting on you. And please let him know that we look forward to his efforts no matter what shape they take.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

1) He wasn't introduced because he was with me, his girlfriend, in my hometown for my dad's birthday.
2) How can you be serious about all of your 'facts' about Coach K, who he's going to play and how badly Marty should transfer? He was hurt ALL of last season, he's a completely different player now, dominating most of the practices. Don't speculate, just wait for the season...

Welcome to the board, tara. It is always nice to have an insider providing real info rather than the speculation that goes on here. In the past Jason Williams' mom would post when he was an undergrad. And of course Jay Bilas posts from time to time.

And like is said above, most of us are big Marty fans. And oh, Devildeac's son Matt was Marty's tutor 2 years ago.

[tarasoccer04]

Thanks for the welcome, I don't really like to get too involved, but it's hard to not say anything when SO many people doubt someone who I know is ready to have a break out year.


....oh, and IF JAY BILAS EVER READS THIS: Thanks to you do you know how many times a week I get told that I should be lucky because Marty has "the best Jr calves in the country" ;) Thanks for giving such a nice kid a big head ...jk

[Cameron]

he's a completely different player now, dominating most of the practices.

Wow. I hope this is true because more NC State Marty could mean more NCAA Tournament Duke. If he starts to come into his own, we will have the deepest and perhaps most talented lineup of guards in the ACC by the time March arrives. Good to hear.

Hopefully Coach K is noticing these dominating performances, too:)

[Indoor66]

Wow. I hope this is true because more NC State Marty could mean more NCAA Tournament Duke. If he starts to come into his own, we will have the deepest and perhaps most talented lineup of guards in the ACC by the time March arrives. Good to hear.

Hopefully Coach K is noticing these dominating performances, too:)

It may be very safe to assume that Coach K notices about everything in practice and in games. If he doesn't he has 3 assistants to serve as additional eyes.

[Cameron]

^^I realize that. I was just making a slight comment on how short a leash it seems Coach K has had Marty on in the past. I know many on here have questioned whether or not this has actually been the case, but it seems very apparent to me that it has. Others have seen it as well. But I won't dicuss this any further, as that would merely be re-killing a dead horse with a rocket launcher.

Again, don't get me wrong, as I really do hope the kid has taken his game to the next level, but I guess I would have to question whether Marty has actually been "dominating" said practices or whether he has just been playing better than the season previous. Quite honestly, if Marty has been tearing practices apart as our top player recently, I guess I would have expected Coach K to comment on it, like, say, on media day... Because chances are, if Marty has been throwing domination out at the rest of our players, it wouldn't have just started this week at practice, it would have been happening all summer and during September and early October workouts, too.

I don't know, maybe I'm just too cynical...

At any rate, I guess it doesn't really matter whether he's dominating or just simply getting better. As long as he's improving, that's a great thing.

I can't let it go, though. Sorry. Can anyone else, besides Marty's girlfriend, confirm how well he's looked at practice as of late or what the coaches have been saying about his improvement and playing time? Because I don't recall him even being mentioned in JimSumner's Media Day thread.

Thanks, just curious.

[grossbus]

i have high hopes for marty. would love to see him get 20+ minutes a game. if we truly go up-tempo, he would rock!

[dukemomLA]

I LOVE to watch Marty play. Enthusiasm, determination, etc. I think his 'up side' is ready to explode, if he is healthy. I'm hoping Coach K agrees. Marty deserves more minutes and more support from 'us guys' on DBR.

[1Devil]

"Dominating". Sounds good, but I would guess it's too strong a word. I can't wait to see, and we can always hope.

Of course, something like this can be read two ways. Remember last pre-season when Zoubek was said to be dominating McRoberts and frustrating him on a regular basis? Well, this was apparently true. But not really because Zoubek was so very very good. It was because McRoberts' offensive game was so limited.

You would think the guys guarding Marty in practice would be Nelson, Henderson, Scheyer, etc. Not exactly chopped liver defensively.

[tarasoccer04]

I'd just like to say, i'm really not biased, I'm probably harder on him than anyone is. I'm goiing off of the 'true blue' charts that are printed out each day from practice, 19 of 24 for three's this week (Friday thru yesterday), leading in steals and charges on the week, and rebounds for two of the days. Clearly this is not a long time span, but this is how it usually is at practice. Marty IS a legit player....he's not in the doghouse....NO BODY understands why he doesn't play.

[OldPhiKap]

I'm having a little trouble believing some of those stats, but in any event if he is leading the team in charges he will get plenty of minutes. That's the type of grit that K is looking for if history is any guide.

[grossbus]

should be easy to check part of it. do "true blue charts" exist? if so, can anyone get one and verify the claim.


as for me, i am such a marty fan that i DO believe, i DO believe.


:D

[ACCBBallFan]

I'd just like to say, i'm really not biased, I'm probably harder on him than anyone is. I'm goiing off of the 'true blue' charts that are printed out each day from practice, 19 of 24 for three's this week (Friday thru yesterday), leading in steals and charges on the week, and rebounds for two of the days. Clearly this is not a long time span, but this is how it usually is at practice. Marty IS a legit player....he's not in the doghouse....NO BODY understands why he doesn't play.
Tara, great to have some information from someone who actually has some information:}

I for one can believe that Marty would fare well, for example in a lineup that simulates Marquette, and has Greg-Jon-Nelson trying to defend Nolan-Gerald-Marty. You pick your poison and try and stop Nolan and Gerald and then Marty burns you.

Last year the second squad really did not have enough threats paired with them to shine in practice and get elevated to first team, with no bona fide PG, and no Taylor King to spread the defense.

This year, since Tara as soccer in her handle, it is a more level playing field.

What Marty may have done or not done over the summer is moot, since Coach K and his assistants were only able to work with the team two hours per week until last Friday. So the stats you shared are the ones that matter.

[Troublemaker]

Haha. Nah, family members and close friends / significant others always believe their guy should get more PT. I actually believe her MORE now. And like others, I believe in Marty. Here's to a healthy and productive season from your man, Tara.

[Troublemaker]

Oh, and Marty does strike me as someone who would be whipped by his g/f into attending her daddy's b'day party instead of a team function. Everything jives. I think Tara is legit.

[happydays1949]

Oh, and Marty does strike me as someone who would be whipped by his g/f into attending her daddy's b'day party instead of a team function. Everything jives. I think Tara is legit.

Wow, that's a little harsh, isn't it? I was just thinking since K is such a family man, that he would have no problem with Marty attending the party>

[Shammrog]

I'd just like to say, i'm really not biased, I'm probably harder on him than anyone is. I'm goiing off of the 'true blue' charts that are printed out each day from practice, 19 of 24 for three's this week (Friday thru yesterday), leading in steals and charges on the week, and rebounds for two of the days. Clearly this is not a long time span, but this is how it usually is at practice. Marty IS a legit player....he's not in the doghouse....NO BODY understands why he doesn't play.

Tara - thanks for your posting and I share your love of Marty. I think he will have a breakout year!

Can you send me an avatar pic of him? From now until the first game, I will honor MARTY by using him as my avatar!

Shammrog.

[Troublemaker]

Wow, that's a little harsh, isn't it? I was just thinking since K is such a family man, that he would have no problem with Marty attending the party>

Haha, I forgot to add the ;) . Of course, I'm joking. I don't even really think it was a team function. But if there were odds on whether the guys on the team make fun of Marty for being whipped, I would bet on Yes.

[riverside6]

should be easy to check part of it. do "true blue charts" exist? if so, can anyone get one and verify the claim.


as for me, i am such a marty fan that i DO believe, i DO believe.


:D
I'm pretty sure they do. If I recall correctly, they did a piece on this on one of the episodes of Inside Basketball with Coach K.

Totally unrelated note:

WooHoo: I'm Chief!

[tarasoccer04]

1- The fact that he's in a relationship does not make him 'whipped', dating for over a year does require attending some family functions.
2- None of that has anything to do with basketball anyway so I'd rather that we dropped it. The bottom line is that I'm a Duke fan and know that Marty is money this year.

[Troublemaker]

1- The fact that he's in a relationship does not make him 'whipped', dating for over a year does require attending some family functions.
2- None of that has anything to do with basketball anyway so I'd rather that we dropped it. The bottom line is that I'm a Duke fan and know that Marty is money this year.

Haha, my bad. There's no need to even begin to justify why Marty was at the party to a bunch of random internet personas. Sorry, that was just a lame throwaway joke by me that got taken seriously.

Tell Marty that he has a huge internet cult following (seriously). Duke Nation is rooting hard for him to get PT and show off all the skills we know he has.

[Wander]

I'm having a little trouble believing some of those stats, but in any event if he is leading the team in charges he will get plenty of minutes. That's the type of grit that K is looking for if history is any guide.

Not so sure about that. If I remember correctly, Marty was 2nd on the team in charge taking last year, which is absolutely amazing when you consider how few minutes he played. It's one of the big reasons why I'm on the side of people who think Marty deserves more playing time.

[micah75]

Tell Marty that he has a huge internet cult following (seriously). Duke Nation is rooting hard for him to get PT and show off all the skills we know he has.

I second that emotion. And as others have already mentioned, welcome to the board tara and it is refreshing to get some personalized, inside info with regards to at least one of the players. If Marty does indeed have a breakout year, that will be saying a lot, being that the wing players (presumably) ahead of him are quite skilled in their own right and are going to be tough to overtake for minutes on the floor.

[OldPhiKap]

Not so sure about that. If I remember correctly, Marty was 2nd on the team in charge taking last year, which is absolutely amazing when you consider how few minutes he played. It's one of the big reasons why I'm on the side of people who think Marty deserves more playing time.


I was mainly referring to the 19 for 24 three point shooting when discussing my questioning of the stats. That's over 79%.

I think Marty's a real spark plug and would love to see him earn major minutes. As I said in my original posts, he's all upside and brings great energy to the floor. I would have to check his charges-taken last year, but would be surprised if he took so many yet did not get the minutes. That would refute the tag line often thrown around about (alleged) poor defense, because you have to have great position to draw the charge. (Unless he was getting lost in a lot of picks, I guess).

[Clipsfan]

I was mainly referring to the 19 for 24 three point shooting. That's over 79%.

I think Marty's a real spark plug and would love to see him earn major minutes. As I said in my original posts, he's all upside and brings great energy to the floor.

It's definitely high, but it's a small sample in a more relaxed setting (practice, rather than game). If he was taking largely uncontested threes it's reasonable over 24 shots to shoot something like that (he can shoot the three).

[OldPhiKap]

^ I hope it is true. And replicable in game-time situations.

[grossbus]

"that the wing players (presumably) ahead of him are quite skilled in their own right and are going to be tough to overtake for minutes on the floor"

this team was offensively challenged last year and all but one of those players is back. no one on this team, NO ONE, can take it to the hoop and finish like marty can. we need him on the floor because of his offensive capability.

[VaDukie]

"that the wing players (presumably) ahead of him are quite skilled in their own right and are going to be tough to overtake for minutes on the floor"

this team was offensively challenged last year and all but one of those players is back. no one on this team, NO ONE, can take it to the hoop and finish like marty can. we need him on the floor because of his offensive capability.

No disagreement on Marty's ability, but I'd wager Henderson has equal if not superior finishing ability at the hoop.

[grossbus]

hendu can finish for sure, i don't think he can get there as easily or as well. marty can put the ball on the floor and go.

[Battierfan01]

I was just wondering if anybody had an update on Marty's ankle after he injured it in Sunday's game against EKU. I noticed that he was in street clothes during the Wisconsin game, but I have not heard much about his condition.

[norduck]

http://www.wral.com/sports/story/2123458/

[markbdevil]

One of my favorite players, hope he fully recovers.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1345911

[Rob Kaufman]

GoDuke now has the release indicating that Marty will be undergoing season-ending surgery in January. Can someone familiar with the redshirt rules chime in on whether that would be a possibility here (assuming he/the team are interesting in going that route)? The release indicated that he played in 4 games. Thanks in advance for the insight.

[Fish80]

I'm shocked and saddened by this news, and wish all the best for Marty. I had no idea his ankle injury was that serious, but on the up side it sounds like they expect a full recovery.

[Olympic Fan]

Marty will get his entire junior year back, not as a redshirt (which requires that a player not play a single second, even in exhibitions), but as a medical hardship.

The old limit used to be that the injury had to occur before the player appeared in no more than seven games, but they upped that last off-season (which allowed Miami's Anthony King to return this year).

Not sure of the new limit, but Marty will clearly qualify -- he'll have two more full seasons.

[DukeUsul]

My understanding was that as long as you played in fewer than (or perhaps no more than) 6 games it was "very easy" to get a medical redshirt.

[juise]

The release indicated that he played in 4 games.

The GoDuke stats confirm this as well... 32 minutes in 4 games.

[Uncle Drew]

Man that really sucks to hear he's hurt that badly!!!!!! I really love seeing the guy play when healthy and nobody can deny he's a good athlete. It just makes you kind of sick to see him take a step forward and then have to take a couple steps back. Let's hope things work out for the guy whatever hardship / redshirt the guy takes!!!!!

[VaDukie]

The medical redshirt may end up being great for him - Nelson graduating and the potential of Henderson leaving (this year or next) gives him a strong shot at future playing time. May depend on what guards we land in 09 and if we play Elliot more at point or on the wing.

[Methodistman]

I haven't seen him play, but it's kind of exciting to think about next year with Czyz (another high flyer) joining a healthy Pocius

[Highlander]

My understanding was that as long as you played in fewer than (or perhaps no more than) 6 games it was "very easy" to get a medical redshirt.

Man, how can we all complain about his lack of playing time or the coach's staff inability to utilize him if he is redshirted? If Marty is truly done for the year, we need a new second string QB to rally behind.

In all seriousness, this is disappointing. Marty was certainly showing improvement and playing better this season than last. I think the biggest blow will be the loss of a top notch practice player for our starters to run at, although the instant offense off the bench will be missed too.

Best of luck to him in a speedy recovery.

[dukestheheat]

hey guys, any idea on how this might affect his remaining eligibility? i'm hoping it's still early enough in the season for the NCAA to grant him his junior year along with his senior year, and not cause him to lose this junior year.

?

dth.

[Troublemaker]

Because he has played in fewer than 6 games, I think he is eligible for the medical redshirt.

[thebur]

Might be good, he could be a valuable player to have around if Singler or Henderson or both are out of here before graduation day!

[speedevil]

The GoDuke stats confirm this as well... 32 minutes in 4 games.

his lost is going to hurt during practices most of all. even if he didnt get much playing time, his time in practice going up against nelson, henderson, scheyer, would have paid of for him in the long run as well as the other guards.

[CatchTheFox]

I am so sorry to hear this. Marty was always one of favorite players -- I felt like he never got enough playing time to really show off his skills, and he (perhaps) overplayed the minutes he got due to the pressure to perform. I was really hoping that he would make his way into the rotation this year.

That being said, I hope he doesn't eye a transfer. He's had a rough couple of years thus far but I really think he can make a great contribution, especially with the possible departures mentioned above.

[Channing]

very sorry to hear this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iplFCEzmwoI

still one of my favorite (even if a bit repetitive) high school highlight tapes.

[wisteria]

That being said, I hope he doesn't eye a transfer. He's had a rough couple of years thus far but I really think he can make a great contribution, especially with the possible departures mentioned above.

Although he didn't play much during these years at Duke, Marty has expressed several times in public that he is happy here at Duke. I think it's clear that Marty also cherishes the education provided at Duke. However, there always seem to be rumors or concerns about Marty transfering. I don't like the idea of discussing this transfer issue. It almost feels like we are expecting him to leave. God knows how we love Marty. Until we hear a word from Marty, please let's not talk about transfer issue.

I truely feel sad for Marty. The guy just can't get a break. I hope he will make a speedy recovery and will have the best luck in future.

[Fish80]

I sometimes think about Nate James when thinking about Marty. Obviously very different players. Nate struggled with injuries, but persevered and finished his Duke career playing a key role on a championship team. Without Nate, we probably don't win it all that year.

Marty may follow a similar path, and in his junior and senior years be a key player on championship teams.

[Dukefanatic]

GoDuke now has the release indicating that Marty will be undergoing season-ending surgery in January. Can someone familiar with the redshirt rules chime in on whether that would be a possibility here (assuming he/the team are interesting in going that route)? The release indicated that he played in 4 games. Thanks in advance for the insight.

6 games is the rule for medical red shirt.

[cspan37421]

I don't get to see Duke play as much as I'd like (who does?) but whenever I've seen Marty go in a game, something good happens. He makes a steal and a fastbreak layup, hits a key jumper to stop a run or end a drought, etc. If I thought I knew much about how he does in all games I'd be one of the folks clamoring for more Marty. But I withhold judgment on that and defer to K and the old guard(s).

I hope he continues to persevere and that he ends up being able to play a key role on a championship team. I think he is a good player, and he reminds me of the kind of 4-year player who, coupled with a future NBA player/early departure or two, would fill out the starting lineup (or be a 6th man) on a Duke final four team. He'll get better, and with attrition from early departures, the relative improvement by senior year will be very noticable.

Good luck on the surgery Marty, get well, and we can't wait to see you again in fall 2008!

[Dukefanatic]

Although he didn't play much during these years at Duke, Marty has expressed several times in public that he is happy here at Duke. I think it's clear that Marty also cherishes the education provided at Duke. However, there always seem to be rumors or concerns about Marty transfering. I don't like the idea of discussing this transfer issue. It almost feels like we are expecting him to leave. God knows how we love Marty. Until we hear a word from Marty, please let's not talk about transfer issue.

I truely feel sad for Marty. The guy just can't get a break. I hope he will make a speedy recovery and will have the best luck in future.

Marty is not going to leave Duke. Everyone loves Marty and in return Marty loves everyone at Duke. Marty is a committed young man to his education and the Duke basketball program. Good Luck Marty!!!

[Cameron]

I've seen Marty go in a game, something good happens. He makes a steal and a fastbreak layup, hits a key jumper to stop a run or end a drought, etc. If I thought I knew much about how he does in all games I'd be one of the folks clamoring for more Marty. But I withhold judgment on that and defer to K and the old guard(s).

Apparently Maui was one of those times you weren't able to watch us play. Look, I like Marty just as much as the next guy, but he is the 10th or 11th best player on our team. Period. He played great against NC State in last season's ACC First Round Tournament game, but, aside from that, I'm not sure I remember any big time Marty moments. Coach put him in a pretty sufficient amount of time against Princeton, and Marty air balled two threes, had another blocked, commited a couple of TO's, including that back court violation pass from the left baseline, etc. And that was in a fairly short span of time.

I like Marty a lot, don't get me wrong. His passion for Duke Blue is undeniable. He's a great kid, but his basketball services will probably never be a focal point in Durham. Marty could be a great player at a school like Charlotte or at another school in the Atlantic 10 or C-USA. There is just too much talent at Duke. You can't even make an argument that he's a top ten player on our club. Who would you put him above? Kyle? Gerald? DeMarcus? Greg? Jon? Lance? Nolan? King Taylor? Dave McClure (when healthy)? Brian?

Sure it's unfortunate for him, but that's life. I really do hope he comes back full strength, though, and proves me wrong. I would love to see it. I, like many others on here, do not want to speak of a Blue Devil transferring out, but, at this point, perhaps that would be best for Marty? Who knows.

P.S. I'm not saying this in a condescending tone whatsoever, but what happened to the preseason chatter of Marty's girlfriend? Didn't she say he was hitting like 27 of 30 threes during one week span and dominating everyone on the team? I certainly didn't see that.

[wisteria]

Cameron, I do understand that you were being very sincere when you suggested it might be best for Marty to transfer. My point is that Marty makes his decision about what his priority is and where he can be successful and happy. It's not all about basketball. We, as fans, all love Marty and wish him the best of luck in life, no matter what. Thus, it is meaningless for us to concern whether it's best for Marty to transfer, especailly when Marty himself showes no sign of expecting to leave. If he does want to go, then we will all understand and wish him best luck. Before that, really, what's the point?

[Cameron]

^^No, you're certainly right. Well stated, wisteria. Sometimes I think fans (maybe it's just me:)) think they have a say in the situation:) That's when I realize I'm sitting on my couch watching television. Lol.

In all seriousness, though, I wish the kid the best of luck in whatever he decides. He's a Blue Devil, after all.

[dukestheheat]

so he's only played in four games; is the rule games played by the team or games where the player actually got some playing time?

marty is important to our team and this takes out one valuable shooter for duke this year.

get well marty and hustle back!

dth.

[Karl Beem]

I'm looking forward to Marty climbing a ladder and cutting down his share of a net.

[Ben63]

This may end up being good for Marty if he fully recovers. He probobly wouldn't see much time with the stellar freshamn class. He seemed to be a shoot only guard in his limited role last year. I think TK would take that role this year.

[dukeENG2003]

The talk of Marty transferring is silly IMO. He loves it here. He's loved here (he's probably the crazie's favorite player). He's not really an NBA talent, so unless he's transferring to some other high caliber academic school, he'd be shooting himself in the foot.

K is a great teacher, and prepares his players very well for life after school, even for those who DON'T play basketball for a living. Ask J-wil, C-well, Brian Davis, Bobby Hurley. He's in a great situation here.

[Patrick Yates]

Honestly, this may be a blessing in disguise for Marty. As stated above, he is not going to get many minutes on this team. There are simply too many options at his primary spot, SG, and his backup spot, SF.

And, Marty is one of those guys who it seems has never been healthy. And his injuries come at the most inopportune times, either in the summer or the preseason. This latest injury was probably exacerbated by his summer surgery. He put too much stress on the healthy ankle trying to protect the injured ankle.

As it has been discussed before (and, largely proven by both Marty and Zoubek this year) summer is the most important time for individual improvement by a player. Marty has missed significant time in a couple of summers/preseasons up until now. He now will have the opportunity to get completely healthy going into the summer. Heck, he could be back on court THIS season, and would be if he were not on such a loaded team (at his position). Our wing depth affords him the time to not rush back. Because, the only way for this type of injury to fully heal is to stay off of it, except for physical therapy. I expect him to be 100% come summertime, and he can then spend his time coming close to maximizing the talent that we have seen glimpses of.

Sadly, many of Marty's troubles seem to be because he gets too excited and tries to do too much. Maybe watching the games, knowing he cannot get in, will be good for him.

Regardless, I hope he has a speedy recovery. Depending on attrition this summer, we may need him to play an important role next year. I think this injury will give him the time and opportunity to be ready for that challenge.

Patrick Yates

[dukerev]

I'm guessing Coach K helps him turn this into a positive. Get his degree then spend a year at Fuqua or SOE or whatever other grad program he wants. I know Marty would prefer to be healthy, playing, and preparing for an NBA career, but who's to say that he can't still play professionally AND get a Duke degree and a year's worth of Duke graduate education. In any case, here's hoping for Marty's speedy recovery and his continued presence with the team this year.

[calltheobvious]

I sometimes think about Nate James when thinking about Marty. Obviously very different players. Nate struggled with injuries, but persevered and finished his Duke career playing a key role on a championship team. Without Nate, we probably don't win it all that year.

Marty may follow a similar path, and in his junior and senior years be a key player on championship teams.

FWIW, I don't think there's any question that Duke doesn't win the championship that year without Nate. Nate's huge plays down the stretch in 2001:

1) Tying free throws at Maryland to set up possible OT.
2) Game-winning tip-in against Maryland in ACC semis.
3) Huge 3 against Maryland in FF cuts lead from 22 to 19 and begins Duke run to get it down single digits by half.
4) Tip-in down the stretch against Arizona after it had gotten really tight again.

(And those are only the huge individual plays.)

Also, here's what I found on NCAA hardship rules:

14.2.4 Hardship Waiver.

A student-athlete may be granted an additional year of competition by the conference or the Academics/Eligibility/Compliance Cabinet for reasons of "hardship." Hardship is defined as an incapacity resulting from an injury or illness that has occurred under all of the following conditions: (Revised: 8/8/02)

(a) The incapacitating injury or illness occurs in one of the four seasons of intercollegiate competition at any two-year or four-year collegiate institutions or occurs after the first day of classes in the student-athlete's senior year in high school; (Revised: 1/10/92 effective 8/1/92, 11/01/01, 8/8/02)

(b) The injury or illness occurs prior to the completion of the first half of the playing season that concludes with the NCAA championship in that sport (measured by the number of scheduled contests or dates of competition not exceeding the maximum limitations in each sport as set forth in Bylaw 17 as set prior to the first scheduled contest or date of competition of the designated official NCAA championship playing season in the applicable sport or the number of completed contests or dates of competition) and results in incapacity to compete for the remainder of that playing season; and (Revised: 1/14/97 effective 8/1/97, 4/26/01 effective 8/1/01, 4/3/02)

(c) The injury or illness occurs when the student-athlete has not participated in more than three contests or dates of competition (whichever is applicable to that sport) or 30 percent (whichever number is greater) of the institution's scheduled or completed contests or dates of competition in his or her sport. Only scheduled or completed competition (including exempted events but excluding scrimmages and exhibition contests identified as such in the legislation) against outside participants during the playing season that concludes with the NCAA championship, or, if so designated, during the official NCAA championship playing season in that sport (e.g., spring baseball, fall soccer), shall be countable under this limitation in calculating both the number of contests or dates of competition in which the student-athlete has participated and the number of scheduled or completed contests or dates of competition during that season in the sport.

[devilish]

I know he is injured, but he did not appear to be on the sideline. Could he be sick? Has this been discussed before and I missed it?

[markbdevil]

I know he is injured, but he did not appear to be on the sideline. Could he be sick? Has this been discussed before and I missed it?

I noticed Marty missing too, I think he had his ankle surgery last week.

[devilish]

I noticed Marty missing too, I think he had his ankle surgery last week.

That would make sense. Thanks!

[fogey]

Marty's game is so well suited for this team's style. While we are deep overall, we could really use his speed, hops and offensive skills... Hope his recovery goes well and that he comes back strong next year.

[Carlos]

Surgery was last week and he was not at the game as a result.

[Ben63]

Im glad he got injured early in the season so he was granted a medical redshirt. He could end up being a key 5th year senior down the road. I don't see much NBA potential so he should be in Durham for a while.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I don't see much NBA potential so he should be in Durham for a while.

If he does indeed become a key contributor in future years, that could change. And he certainly has a bright future in European basketball.

[Ignatius07]

It really is too bad that Marty's career coincided with a considerable glut of talent at the wing.


Marty's game is so well suited for this team's style. While we are deep overall, we could really use his speed, hops and offensive skills...

Duke projects to have a very similar team in 08 (losing possibly only D-Marc, gaining athletic wing E. Williams) and 09 (losing Paulus and McClure, possibly gaining more elite wings), so Marty should be able to utilize his talents on a team that is very similar.

[DukieInBrasil]

Anybody got word on whether Pocius can or will red-shirt this season?

[Bluedog]

Yes, he can and is red-shirting.

[Franzez]

He hasnt played since November 25th.

Did he get kicked off the team or did he transfer?What happened?

I would have thought he'd play at least after Paulus fouled out but they allowed a walk on to get in the game over him:confused:

[Duvall]

He hasnt played since November 25th.

Did he get kicked off the team or did he transfer?What happened?

I would have thought he'd play at least after Paulus fouled out but they allowed a walk on to get in the game over him:confused:

Ankle injury. Medical redshirt.

[Franzez]

^^Thanks.

Didnt know about him being injured,How long is Zoubek out too?

[Ignatius07]

Zoubek played last night...

[DukieInKansas]

Zoubek played last night and some the prior game.

[Kathy S]

I understood he was to undergo season-ending surgery on his ankle and be out for the rest of the season. Anyone have any more recent or different info?

[Franzez]

Zoubek played last night...
He certainly wasnt on the court when we needed him the most in the final 5 minutes.

How many minutes did Coach K play him?
I usually change the channel for a few minutes in the 1st Half

[Kathy S]

I understood he was to undergo season-ending surgery on his ankle and be out for the rest of the season. Anyone have any more recent or different info?

I was talking about Pocius, not Zoubek. Didn't see that others had posted in about Zoubek in the interim.

[dw0827]

Why did we need him out there in the last 5 minutes? What you do think he would have contributed?

[Franzez]

Why did we need him out there in the last 5 minutes? What you do think he would have contributed?
He would have put a body on Skeen

I didnt even see Taylor King until Henderson fouled out.:confused:

[dw0827]

Yup, thats what lost it. No body on Skeen.

[Franzez]

Yup, thats what lost it. No body on Skeen.
Well not exactly that but it would have been nice to have someone big in the post to keep Johnson from racking up 14 rebounds also

[jimsumner]

Zoubek isn't out.

[ugadevil]

He would have put a body on Skeen

I didnt even see Taylor King until Henderson fouled out.:confused:

Why do you not watch the game in the first half? Taylor King played in the first half and struggled on offense and defense. Same with Zoubek.

[OldPhiKap]

Why do you not watch the game in the first half? Taylor King played in the first half and struggled on offense and defense. Same with Zoubek.

Along those same lines -- if either one of them had come in and fired up the team or the game, they'd have seen more time. I am also fairly confident that if either one was lighting it up in practice, they'd get the time too.

In any event, if there is going to be a shake-up it will be at the Miami game. If Taylor or Z want big minutes, they'd better bust their arses in practice this week b/c they'll get the chance to play. I would, for example, expect to see Nolan get some good minutes against Miami. But I would hope both of them would realize that they are an integral part of a very good team and that a championship is more important than how many minutes per game you play as a frosh or soph.

[greybeard]

When Zoubek comes in, I have noticed that he often gets terrific position in the paint with the ball on the wing and that no entry pass ensues. On at least two of those occasions, the player with the ball was Demarcus. I think that that is bad basketball. You see Zoubek in deep with a guy on his back, he gets the ball immediately.

Every single guy on that team takes shots that they should make and don't. Every last one of them.

If Zoubek is in the game, either treat him like it or get off the court! I do not understand why K stands for this. Maybe Zoubek will flub it; you play like he will and you destroy the central theme that underlies good play.

Either K should leave Zoubek on the bench or bench anyone who passes up a play because they do not trust a teammate. No exceptions!

[FerryFor50]

When Zoubek comes in, I have noticed that he often gets terrific position in the paint with the ball on the wing and that no entry pass ensues. On at least two of those occasions, the player with the ball was Demarcus. I think that that is bad basketball. You see Zoubek in deep with a guy on his back, he gets the ball immediately.

Every single guy on that team takes shots that they should make and don't. Every last one of them.

If Zoubek is in the game, either treat him like it or get off the court! I do not understand why K stands for this. Maybe Zoubek will flub it; you play like he will and you destroy the central theme that underlies good play.

Either K should leave Zoubek on the bench or bench anyone who passes up a play because they do not trust a teammate. No exceptions!

I notice this a lot too. And you can see the frustration on Zoubek.

Now, Z isn't going to remind anyone of Shaq... but he can score. Expecting him to get his points on offensive boards is limiting what possibilities you have on offense.

[Acymetric]

I notice this a lot too. And you can see the frustration on Zoubek.

Now, Z isn't going to remind anyone of Shaq... but he can score. Expecting him to get his points on offensive boards is limiting what possibilities you have on offense.

Are we expecting him to get points right now? I get the feeling that he is in the game to try and grab rebounds and maybe alter shots on the defensive end. If he's really open then yes, a pass should probably be made, but he doesn't have the best hands in the world, so if it isn't a nice direct pass I don't think it would be a good play to make. I mean he's no Casey Sanders, but he's not exactly a football receiver either. Especially coming off of the injury, I can see why he wouldn't the offense wouldn't involve him all that much.

I mean really they haven't practiced or played with him all that much in quite some time...when was the last time they really even needed to into the post to see if a play like that was available? So assuming that this would be a good play (it may or may not be) it would still be somewhat forgivable that the offense is still adjusting to his presence.

[oldnavy]

Any word on Marty's recovery? Has he been able to practice with the team at all this season and if so, any word on how he is progressing?

[Lotus000]

Man I wish that kid would have a healthy year ONCE. He's so dang fiery.

[Devilsfan]

Sounds like you're talking about Nelson a year ago.

[shadowfax336]

well yes despite the whole D-Marc being our leading scorer last year and for all the talk about Marty's offensive abilities, his career high is 14 points. Lets not get too excited here. D-Marc never averaged less than 6ppg over his 4 years and was often our best defender over those years. I'm not saying Marty can't contribute next year beyond where he already has, just saying that it might be wise to temper expectations.

[Got_Duke]

also keep in mind Marty has not even come close to the minutes DeMarcus played

so that career high of "only 14points" must also be taken into context

Marty has the ability to average double figures in points if given the minutes

Yes, he IS that talented and I saw it first hand at an open practice where he just about dunked over Josh McRoberts several times

He is a quick, athletic (redacted) player who can slash

[kramerbr]

also keep in mind Marty has not even come close to the minutes DeMarcus played

so that career high of "only 14points" must also be taken into context

Marty has the ability to average double figures in points if given the minutes

Yes, he IS that talented and I saw it first hand at an open practice where he just about dunked over Josh McRoberts several times

He is a quick, athletic (redacted) player who can slash

What does it mean "he just about dunked over Josh McRoberts several times"? Does that mean he tried but didn't? I'm confused.

[Edouble]

What does it mean "he just about dunked over Josh McRoberts several times"? Does that mean he tried but didn't? I'm confused.

Sounds like he probably clanged a few off the rim with McRoberts in the vacinity.

We have a couple guys ahead of Marty that I am a lot more excited about next year. I'm not sure I understand why everyone gets so juiced about Pocious. It's hard to get excited when he never gets any miniutes, even when he's healthy. The minutes he does get have only been good on one occassion that I can remember, where Rick Majerus couldn't stop talking about his calves. The rest of the time he runs around a lot and eventually gets pulled because "he needs to work on his defense".

[ugadevil]

Yes, he IS that talented and I saw it first hand at an open practice where he just about dunked over Josh McRoberts several times




Was he able to just about dunk over Nick Horvath in practice too? That'd be unbelievable.

[Cameron]

Sounds like he probably clanged a few off the rim with McRoberts in the vacinity.


Yeah, that's what I took from that as well:D

Dunking on Josh just about every trip down the court (which is what the original poster was referencing)? I don't think so. That's hyperbole at its finest. Sounds a lot like the person who, before last season was about to start, was claiming Marty hadn't missed an in-practice, five-on-five scrimmage three pointer in weeks. Or the stories of Marty dunking over motor bikes and cars...

Let's put down the SLAM Magazine stories for awhile and let next season play out. I think Marty has the potential to be a very good player, but, let's not forget, Marty is still behind guys like Scheyer, Henderson, Smith, and, probably, Williams as well. Marty will be hard pressed, IMO, to earn big minutes. Outside of games against NC State and VCU his sophomore season, I can't remember too many games that Marty really "looked" amazing out on the court. His court time out in Maui, before his injury, was far from convincing.

I hope he proves me wrong.

[CDu]

Pocius is a pretty talented offensive player. Unfortunately (for him), he's probably going to be the fourth or fifth most talented offensive player at his position on the team next year. And defensively, he's going to be (at best) the fourth best defender at his position. That's not a knock on him - that's just the reality of how good our wing players are.

As such, Pocius is not likely to see many (if any) minutes next year. Henderson and Scheyer are going to get most of the minutes at the wing, with Williams and Smith to get the lion's share of minutes at wing backup, with Smith picking up the backup point guard minutes. We are really loaded on the wing.

[shadowfax336]

So I started writing this post arguing that Marty would actually find playing time next year, but then started looking at numbers and realized it would be tough. If, as expected, we start Paulus, Scheyer, and Henderson at the 1-3 spots next year, then we have one proven guard coming off the bench for big minutes (Nolan), 1 prospect (Email), and then... Marty. (Also McClure or Singler could probably steal some minutes at 3, but I feel our guards from Marty on up are stronger than our big men) So lets say Nolan is our 6th man and gets 25 minutes a game, say 15 of that as PG, and 10 as a combo guard w/Greg on the floor. So if Scheyer averages 30 mpg again, that wipes out 2 guard spots. Then we have Henderson, who averaged 25 mpg this year but hopefully will continue to get in better shape and become more important out on the floor. But for the sake of this exercise lets assume that Henderson gets 25 mpg again. That leaves 15 mpg at the guard spots. Now for the hype Email is getting, I would expect him to average about 15 mpg, but he's not a 3, so it might be less than that. Certainly playing him at 3 we'd probably need Scheyer to be at 2, because a Paulus, Nolan, Williams guard lineup is fairly ridiculously small. So basically it looks as if Marty is going to have to beat out Email for playing time, and its completely impossible to judge whether thats going to happen till the fall.

[BlueintheFace]

I'm not sure I understand why everyone gets so juiced about Pocious.

People get excited because he is probably the best athlete on the team besides Gerald. When McRoberts was still around he called Marty the best dunker on the team (His vertical is ridiculous). Plus he is the only player on the team quick enough to drive baseline and not commit a charge or get pushed out (The signature Pocius baseline reverse layup that we have all seen many a time). It's nice to have a player that can get to the rim (a quality many posters believe this team to be without)... and oh yah... he is another three point shooter. As for his defense, it looked better before he got hurt this time around. Much Much better than before. I'm not so sure it is where it needs to be yet for him to get significant minutes, but who knows what itll look like next season.

[Cameron]

^^Marty is 15 of 50 all-time from three... I'm still trying to figure out how he is such a weapon from long range. That's definitely not his game, and he has never really looked comfortable shooting from out there. Go to the Maui tapes. He's more of an athletic scorer, not a good jump shooter. Personally, I think it has been Marty's inability to catch and shoot that has hurt him the most. (Often, when he's been in the game, Marty has taken some very ill-advised three-point attempts or 18 foot bricks that immediately send him to the bench.)

I think if Marty had a more comfortable jump shot, he'd be able to earn some extra minutes and then allow his natural, athletic game to catch up in later moments. Then again, for any of this to become relevant, Marty must first play defense.

[BlueintheFace]

As such, Pocius is not likely to see many (if any) minutes next year. Henderson and Scheyer are going to get most of the minutes at the wing, with Williams and Smith to get the lion's share of minutes at wing backup, with Smith picking up the backup point guard minutes. We are really loaded on the wing.

I'm not so sure about that... I can totally see him getting 10-12 minutes a game if not more. Paulus (~25 mins/gm), Scheyer (~28 mins/game), Henderson (~28 mins/game) start... Nolan (~15 mins/game) will come off the bench, but that leaves 24 mins/game to fill at those three positions, and If E-mail is even getting 15 mins/game I will be absolutely shocked. He could be good in a year or two, but he is definitely not ready to be a major contributor. I have to believe Coach K will give Marty the nod for a lot of those minutes

[CDu]

So I started writing this post arguing that Marty would actually find playing time next year, but then started looking at numbers and realized it would be tough. If, as expected, we start Paulus, Scheyer, and Henderson at the 1-3 spots next year, then we have one proven guard coming off the bench for big minutes (Nolan), 1 prospect (Email), and then... Marty. (Also McClure or Singler could probably steal some minutes at 3, but I feel our guards from Marty on up are stronger than our big men) So lets say Nolan is our 6th man and gets 25 minutes a game, say 15 of that as PG, and 10 as a combo guard w/Greg on the floor. So if Scheyer averages 30 mpg again, that wipes out 2 guard spots. Then we have Henderson, who averaged 25 mpg this year but hopefully will continue to get in better shape and become more important out on the floor. But for the sake of this exercise lets assume that Henderson gets 25 mpg again. That leaves 15 mpg at the guard spots. Now for the hype Email is getting, I would expect him to average about 15 mpg, but he's not a 3, so it might be less than that. Certainly playing him at 3 we'd probably need Scheyer to be at 2, because a Paulus, Nolan, Williams guard lineup is fairly ridiculously small. So basically it looks as if Marty is going to have to beat out Email for playing time, and its completely impossible to judge whether thats going to happen till the fall.

McClure and Singler are unlikely to play minutes at the "3" spot. They'll get most of their minutes at the "4," with some minutes at the "5." But you're right - there just aren't going to be minutes for three backups at the wing spot, and Pocius is almost certainly the third backup at the wing (unless he beats out Williams).

[BlueintheFace]

18 foot bricks that immediately send him to the bench.)

I'm going to guess that Marty has shot less than 10 mid-range jumpers in his entire career at Duke. I can't remember a single time he took a shot that wasn't a three or off the drive...

[CDu]

I'm not so sure about that... I can totally see him getting 10-12 minutes a game if not more. Paulus (~25 mins/gm), Scheyer (~28 mins/game), Henderson (~28 mins/game) start... Nolan (~15 mins/game) will come off the bench, but that leaves 24 mins/game to fill at those three positions, and If E-mail is even getting 15 mins/game I will be absolutely shocked. He could be good in a year or two, but he is definitely not ready to be a major contributor. I have to believe Coach K will give Marty the nod for a lot of those minutes

I doubt you'll see Paulus play that few minutes. I also doubt you'll see Smith play that few minutes. And I doubt Pocius will beat out Williams (though I admit that's pure speculation).

I expect the senior Paulus to get ~30 minutes per game. I expect the same of Scheyer and Henderson. That leaves probably 35 minutes per game for other guards (assuming 5 minutes per game from Henderson at the "4" spot in a small lineup). I expect Smith to get 20+ minutes, which leaves about 15 minutes per game.

Unless Pocius can beat out Williams as a backup wing, he's just not going to see the floor much (if at all). I'm not sure why you'd be shocked that Williams would get 15 minutes per game. Smith averaged about that many minutes, and from what I've read Williams is as good a prospect as Smith.

[shadowfax336]

I did say that it was unlikely that I felt that Singler and McClure shouldn't steal minutes at 3 but its not impossible, its been beaten into the ground here that Singler is more of a natural 3, and McClure, at 6'6 certainly has more of a 3 look than a 4 and played it once or twice this year. That almost definitely won't be the regular look, but if Z improves and we want to look big, a Zoubek, Lance, Singler, Henderson, Paulus line is a huge/talented basketball team, with nobody playing out of position. Again, not something to do regularly, but something that possibly could happen

[CDu]

I did say that it was unlikely that I felt that Singler and McClure shouldn't steal minutes at 3 but its not impossible, its been beaten into the ground here that Singler is more of a natural 3, and McClure, at 6'6 certainly has more of a 3 look than a 4 and played it once or twice this year. That almost definitely won't be the regular look, but if Z improves and we want to look big, a Zoubek, Lance, Singler, Henderson, Paulus line is a huge/talented basketball team, with nobody playing out of position. Again, not something to do regularly, but something that possibly could happen

I disagree that Singler is a natural three. I'd say he's pretty much the definition of a college "4." Same for McClure. Both may be natural "3s" in the NBA, but at the college level they are "4s." The problem for both is that they've been stuck playing too much at the "5," not that they're out of position at the "4."

With the amount of wing players we have, it is very unlikely that Singler or McClure will get time at the "3" spot. I don't see us going with a lineup of three "bigs" much (if at all) this year. And yes, I'd say that your proposed "Zoubek/Thomas/Singler/Henderson/Paulus" lineup has Singler playing out of position.

[Got_Duke]

i didn't say on every trip down the court you facetious fools! lol

he did on a couple of instances, but came close on several more

you all are sounding like a bunch of InsideCarolina posters and a few of you aren't much better, by the way

[CDu]

i didn't say on every trip down the court you facetious fools! lol

he did on a couple of instances, but came close on several more

you all are sounding like a bunch of InsideCarolina posters and a few of you aren't much better, by the way

I assume you mean that those who don't agree with your opinion that Pocius will get playing time makes us no better than InsideCarolina posters. And I assume you mean that to be an insult.

I fail to see how stating that I believe that Pocius is the fifth-best of a group of five TREMENDOUS wing players, and that I believe this means Pocius will have trouble finding playing time, makes me a bad poster.

Forgive me if I've misinterpreted you. But I'm sorry that I believe you have an unrealistic opinion of Pocius's chances for minutes next year. We have a lot of REALLY REALLY good wings, and thus there aren't likely to be minutes for all of them. That's just a reality.

[Lord Ash]

Just for the Martyaholics out there, everyone's favorite Marty youtube hit;

Dunk that! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iplFCEzmwoI)

[Hot Route]

I would love to see Marty get more PT, but he often seems lost on the defensive end. He constantly gets beat backdoor and never seems to lock his man up. I would love to see him have an injury-free year though.

[Indoor66]

Just for the Martyaholics out there, everyone's favorite Marty youtube hit;

Dunk that! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iplFCEzmwoI)

If he spent some of the "dunking" time on other skills he might play more....;)

[Cameron]

CDu is definitely right about Marty being our fifth best guard/wing. Maybe not athletically gifted-wise, but certainly in terms of true basketball ability. (If that makes sense.) On the court, guys like Paulus, Scheyer, Smith, Henderson, and Williams are all much more comfortable making basketball plays (I say Williams because it's pretty obvious that the kid's talent will be a success at Duke). Marty tries to do so much with his athleticism, that he sometimes comes across as just erratic. And his outside shot is far from polished. It's like watching a pinball. You have no idea how it's going to be shot or where it's going to end up. Like I said, I can remember countless airballs and wide right/wide left bricks leaving his hands over the past couple of years. He just doesn't always seem to have that basketball "flow," if you will.

I have certainly seen spurts of Marty's potential (i.e. the 2007 ACC First Round game), but I have yet to see it mature into anything solid. In early games this past season, it still wasn't there, and I think you would be lying if you said it was. Until Coach K is able to trust Marty's on court decisions (as well as his defense, at least somewhat), I think he remains on the bench.

I'm not intending this post to be a deliberate "attack" or something of Marty, because it's not. I'm just trying to explain my belief as to why Marty doesn't get the amount of minutes that some on here believe he should be awarded. I just don't see it. I'm sorry.

[BlueintheFace]

I expect the senior Paulus to get ~30 minutes per game. I expect the same of Scheyer and Henderson.

Even if this is true, there will be plenty of minutes for Marty. The team doesn't change much this year in terms of personnel so I think it is safe to say we will be running the same offense and defense. If this is the case then K will also be keeping his experienced players between 25-30 minutes in order to save them for the end of the year. In fact, K made several comments about this year's team being fresh for the tourney because of the bench's ability to step up all season... (the truth of his statements were debatable of course). Here were the stats from last year...

Gerald Henderson- 26.2 min/game
Jon Scheyer- 28.3 min/game
Greg Paulus- 27.7 min/game
Nolan Smith- 14.7 min/game

At the three guard spots we lose a little over 40 min/game with Taylor (9.7 min/game) and Demarcus (30.7 min/game) gone.

Duke loses Demarcus and Taylor, but gets Marty and E-Mail. I think it is safe to say that Duke will have comparable depth to last year with this new season. That being the case, it is only logical to assume that K will be distributing minutes similarly to returning starter guards (and Scheyer). There may be a slight increase for each, but this new style that Coach K runs simply requires that minutes be given to the bench.

It is also logical to assume that there will be an increase in minutes for Nolan (say 5-7 minutes? If you do the math, there are minutes to be had here (almost 25-35) for E-will and Marty. So lets look at what the minutes might look like if Coach K runs his guards in and out similar to last year... but with a little bump for each

Gerald- 28 min/game
Jon- 30 min/game
Greg- 32 min/game
Nolan-20 min/game

Left over minutes- 28!!!

Unless-
A) Coach K decides to go big with Singler, Lance/Zou, and Czyz (or whatever combo of three you like)
B) K decides bump nolan's minutes up to 30

There will be enough minutes for Marty and E-will.

If there isn't then why would one assume that K would give most of the minutes to a freshman over Marty who has simply been kept off the court by injuries. If Marty is healthy, I have to believe K would go with the experienced player who has been with the team for so many years and obviously has offensive weapons. Can E-mail's defense really be that much better than Marty's?

[shadowfax336]

Even if this is true, there will be plenty of minutes for Marty. The team doesn't change much this year in terms of personnel so I think it is safe to say we will be running the same offense and defense. If this is the case then K will also be keeping his experienced players between 25-30 minutes in order to save them for the end of the year. In fact, K made several comments about this year's team being fresh for the tourney because of the bench's ability to step up all season... (the truth of his statements were debatable of course). Here were the stats from last year...

Gerald Henderson- 26.2 min/game
Jon Scheyer- 28.3 min/game
Greg Paulus- 27.7 min/game
Nolan Smith- 14.7 min/game

At the three guard spots we lose a little over 40 min/game with Taylor (9.7 min/game) and Demarcus (30.7 min/game) gone.

Duke loses Demarcus and Taylor, but gets Marty and E-Mail. I think it is safe to say that Duke will have comparable depth to last year with this new season. That being the case, it is only logical to assume that K will be distributing minutes similarly to returning starter guards (and Scheyer). There may be a slight increase for each, but this new style that Coach K runs simply requires that minutes be given to the bench.

It is also logical to assume that there will be an increase in minutes for Nolan (say 5-7 minutes? If you do the math, there are minutes to be had here (almost 25-35) for E-will and Marty. So lets look at what the minutes might look like if Coach K runs his guards in and out similar to last year... but with a little bump for each

Gerald- 28 min/game
Jon- 30 min/game
Greg- 32 min/game
Nolan-20 min/game

Left over minutes- 28!!!

Unless-
A) Coach K decides to go big with Singler, Lance/Zou, and Czyz (or whatever combo of three you like)
B) K decides bump nolan's minutes up to 30

There will be enough minutes for Marty and E-will.

If there isn't then why would one assume that K would give most of the minutes to a freshman over Marty who has simply been kept off the court by injuries. If Marty is healthy, I have to believe K would go with the experienced player who has been with the team for so many years and obviously has offensive weapons. Can E-mail's defense really be that much better than Marty's?

well this would be great and all... except that King wasn't a 3, he played 4 for us. Lets say that the minutes for the 3 guard spots are going to be split between 5 guys this year, and we play 4 guards maybe 8 minutes a game. Thats a liberal estimate given that I think a lot of us are hoping that we can keep our bigs on the floor at the end of the year this year. That means that there are about 128 "guard minutes" available. Lets use your numbers for the guys who played this year. Thats 110 minutes, leaving 18 for Marty/Email. Thats better than I projected earlier, but also is assuming a 4 guard lineup that might go away this year if our bigs develop. I'm not going to try and project how that 18 would be split between Marty and Email because I didn't see either of them on the court this year and therefore its tough to say where they are. But keep in mind that this is a (very) liberal estimate to begin with.

[Classof06]

If EW is supposed to help fill the void left by Demarcus and make the kind of impact we as fans would like, then I just don't see Pocius getting much run. At least that's how I look at it.

[Cameron]

Actually, we lose 30 minutes per game at the guard positions, as DeMarcus is the only guard who left the program. Taylor's ten minutes per game were mostly backup time for Kyle or Lance.

Those extra 30 minutes in the back-court will almost undoubtedly, IMO, go to Smith and Williams. (I think you are really underestimating the type of productive freshman that Williams could become, BlueintheFace. Elliot is an explosive, traditional Duke wing, and will be good from day one). With Greg, Jon, and Gerald starting, I fully expect Smith and Williams to take over the wing minutes off the bench, with Marty seeing some spot time.

Our guard lineup last season (Paulus, Scheyer, Henderson, Nelson, and Smith) played a combined 126.9 minutes per game last season, according to your numbers BlueintheFace. With Markie gone, and saying that our starters average around 30 per each (which I think is more than reasonable thinking), that would leave approximately 36.9 free minutes. Considering that Nolan will certainly see extended minutes this coming season compared to the 14.7 per game he acquired this year, which I will go out on the limb and predict to be close to 20 per, and the fact that Elliot will see at least the same, if not more, amount of minutes as a freshman Nolan, that doesn't leave much time for Marty to break the rotation. (That is, saying we keep on pace with our guard minutes from this past season.)

I just don't see Marty tapping into the rotation of our guards very often. It's just reality.

[devildeac]

My son will be in town this weekend and visiting Duke and there is a good chance he will see/talk with Marty so perhaps I will have an update next weekend or next week.

[Cameron]

My son will be in town this weekend and visiting Duke and there is a good chance he will see/talk with Marty so perhaps I will have an update next weekend or next week.


His nickname isn't Les or Fave is it?

[CDu]

Gerald Henderson- 26.2 min/game
Jon Scheyer- 28.3 min/game
Greg Paulus- 27.7 min/game
Nolan Smith- 14.7 min/game

At the three guard spots we lose a little over 40 min/game with Taylor (9.7 min/game) and Demarcus (30.7 min/game) gone.

King played zero minutes at the 3 last year. He played the 4 and 5 spots for us. So his 9.7 minutes per game were not at the 3, and should not be considered in your math. For perspective, sum up the minutes per game for the guards/wings you listed: 28.3, 26.2, 27.7, 30.7, 14.7. That's 127.6 minutes for three positions. There are only 120 minutes available! Clearly, Henderson and Nelson played about 7.6 minutes at the "4" spot.

Barring injury, Smith is going to see an increase in minutes to 20+. So assume that Smith plays 20 and Scheyer, Paulus, and Henderson only play 28 (which is almost certain to be an underestimate). That leaves 16 minutes at the wing. If you include the 7.6 minutes, that's 23.6 minutes left. That's the absolute best case scenario for extra minutes. More likely, Henderson, Scheyer, Paulus, and Smith play a few more minutes.


Gerald- 28 min/game
Jon- 30 min/game
Greg- 32 min/game
Nolan-20 min/game

Left over minutes- 28!!!

Check your math. Those minutes sum to 110. There are 120 minutes for the three spots in question (40 minutes per spot). Even if you assume 5 minutes per game for Henderson at the "4" spot in a small lineup, that leaves only 15 minutes per game at the wing.


There will be enough minutes for Marty and E-will.

If there isn't then why would one assume that K would give most of the minutes to a freshman over Marty who has simply been kept off the court by injuries. If Marty is healthy, I have to believe K would go with the experienced player who has been with the team for so many years and obviously has offensive weapons. Can E-mail's defense really be that much better than Marty's?

Since your math is incorrect, your statement that there will be enough minutes is also incorrect. Coach K will play the best players. I fully expect Williams to be a better basketball player than Pocius, both offensively and defensively. Again, that's not meant to be a negative statement about Pocius, but rather a positive statement about Williams. For that reason, I'd expect Williams to get the minutes and not Pocius.

I like Pocius. He's got great energy. He's certainly a valuable part of the team. He seems to genuinely like being a Devil. But the fact is that there isn't going to be room to play six guys in the three backcourt spots. Either Williams or Pocius is not going to see much time. There are about 15-20 minutes available for the two, barring injury. And I fully expect Williams to be the better player of the two, meaning Pocius is going to get the short end of the playing time stick.

[Bob Green]

At the three guard spots we lose a little over 40 min/game with Taylor (9.7 min/game) and Demarcus (30.7 min/game) gone.

Taylor King played all his minutes at the 4 or 5. Review Jumbo's Cumulative Plus/Minus thread (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4862&highlight=Cumulative) and you will see he was always on the court with three of our guard/wings. Taylor King's 9.7 mpg will go to a healthy Zoubek or Olek Czyz.

Elliot Williams will challenge for serious playing time and Marty Pocius will be last off the bench.

[Cameron]

Elliot Williams will challenge for serious playing time and Marty Pocius will be last off the bench.


Sorry to say it, Marty devotees, but this is the situation.

[CDu]

Sorry to say it, Marty devotees, but this is the situation.

Yup. The only way I see Pocius cracking the rotation is via injury to one of the other wings or via Williams being surprisingly not ready. This team is just so loaded with good wing players that there is not room for a guy even as good as Pocius to get regular playing time.

[BlueintheFace]

Check your math. Those minutes sum to 110. There are 120 minutes for the three spots in question (40 minutes per spot).


Taylor King played all his minutes at the 4 or 5. Review Jumbo's Cumulative Plus/Minus thread and you will see he was always on the court with three of our guard/wings. Taylor King's 9.7 mpg will go to a healthy Zoubek or Olek Czyz.

Perhaps instead of saying "at the three guard spots we lose a little over 40 minutes," I should have said, "at the 3+ guard spots we lose a little over 40 minutes." The actual position on the floor matters little. My point was that E-will and Marty will be picking up the minutes left by Demarc and Taylor (40 minutes).

Now, if you were to disagree with me on this point, and instead felt that Olek, Lance, or perhaps another big man would be picking up Taylor's minutes, I would consider that a valid criticism, but if I assume that the guards in question will pick up Taylor's minutes then my math is in fact correct.

Really, I am just assuming that K will be giving Taylor's minutes to guards since that seems to assure continuity in style of play. As I am sure we all know, K doesn't really give people positions...

[Jumbo]

Sorry to say it, Marty devotees, but this is the situation.

I expect it will turn out this way, but I think/hope Marty will get a chance to battle Williams for time as the fifth perimeter player. At the very least, they should be given a chance to fight it out in practice with the better player winning.
I agree with everyone who has said Duke won't play six perimeter players, though. There's no point to using a sixth guy given the fact that five guys will be able to provide more than enough rest for one another and that Scheyer and Henderson, in particular, will need to play a lot for Duke to be as good as possible. The only way to play Williams AND Pocius would be to do what K did with McClure and King during the second half of the ACC season, where there were games that both played a little bit, and their combined minutes were the same as one typical reserve. So, instead of giving Williams, say, 10 minutes, you could go 5/5 with Williams and Pocius. But if one guy emerges as a better player than the other, there's no real reason to do that.

[CDu]

Perhaps instead of saying "at the three guard spots we lose a little over 40 minutes," I should have said, "at the 3+ guard spots we lose a little over 40 minutes." The actual position on the floor matters little. My point was that E-will and Marty will be picking up the minutes left by Demarc and Taylor (40 minutes).

Now, if you were to disagree with me on this point, and instead felt that Olek, Lance, or perhaps another big man would be picking up Taylor's minutes, I would consider that a valid criticism, but if I assume that the guards in question will pick up Taylor's minutes then my math is in fact correct.

Really, I am just assuming that K will be giving Taylor's minutes to guards since that seems to assure continuity in style of play. As I am sure we all know, K doesn't really give people positions...

King rotated exclusively with Singler, Zoubek, Thomas, and McClure. He was never in the rotation with the guards/wings. Therefore, I do disagree with you that the guards/wings will pick up King's minutes. I don't know that Czyz specifically will get those minutes, but I do feel that King's minutes are going to be divided between Singler, Thomas, Zoubek, McClure, and Czyz in some fashion. Pocius will be battling with Williams for minutes. And I don't think Pocius will beat out Williams for those minutes.

The "Coach K doesn't give people positions" comment isn't really applicable here. He doesn't typically play people wildly out of position unless he absolutely has to do so. And with five guys capable of playing the "4" and "5" spots, there won't be too much need to go really small. And the only that both Williams and Pocius play substantial minutes (barring injury) is if Coach K decides to go REALLY small (i.e., playing 15+ minutes per game with four guards/wings). Unless Pocius beats out Williams, he's not going to see much time.

[shadowfax336]

I do think that its a bit silly of people to just assume that Email/Ewill will come in and beat Pocius out. It seems likely, but is not at all a given. Lets wait and see what he looks like when he's on campus, and what Marty looks like when he comes back from injury and then judge. I know people hope that Email will be able to contribute right away, but don't just assume that is the case.

[Cameron]

So, instead of giving Williams, say, 10 minutes, you could go 5/5 with Williams and Pocius. But if one guy emerges as a better player than the other, there's no real reason to do that.


If Elliot gets five minutes per game next season, I'm guaranteeing a transfer. Mark it down. I know you are just being hypothetical and giving Marty the benefit of the doubt, Jumbo, but you and I both know that Williams is a special, special talent who will make an immediate impact, at least on some level.

[oldnavy]

:) Great discusssion and insight, but no one has addressed the question. I didn't mean to create a Marty storm, I was just wondering if anyone had heard how his rehab is coming along and if he was getting any practice time in with the team. There was a post a while back about how this team will grow and certainly benefit because of all the talent and the advantage that the various match ups in practice gives us. In my opinion, a healthy Marty doesn't need to play one minute in the game to be a major contributer if he is able to "bring it" at practice and challenge the starters and players in the rotation on a daily basis...

Any body have any info on his status, health and practice wise?

[Jumbo]

If Elliot gets five minutes per game next season, I'm guaranteeing a transfer. Mark it down. I know you are just being hypothetical and giving Marty the benefit of the doubt, Jumbo, but you and I both know that Williams is a special, special talent who will make an immediate impact, at least on some level.

Honestly, I don't know that at all. I know he's ranked about 15-20 in a relatively weak class. I've seen him in some youtube highlights and in the McDonald's game. I have absolutely no idea whether he has the ability to make an immediate impact. I wouldn't classify him as a "special, special talent."

[_Gary]

Honestly, I don't know that at all. I know he's ranked about 15-20 in a relatively weak class. I've seen him in some youtube highlights and in the McDonald's game. I have absolutely no idea whether he has the ability to make an immediate impact. I wouldn't classify him as a "special, special talent."

Uh-oh. I smell another bet coming on. :D

In all seriousness, I'm in agreement with Jumbo on this one. Elliot might be a "special, special talent" but I wouldn't label him some kind of can't miss superstar for Duke. I know a lot of people here have already got his jersey hanging in the rafters, but what little I've seen of him doesn't convince me he's a sure fire, dominant talent for us. I imagine he'll be a good player for us, but I'm not prepared to say more than that at this point.

Gary

[MChambers]

Uh-oh. I smell another bet coming on. :D

In all seriousness, I'm in agreement with Jumbo on this one. Elliot might be a "special, special talent" but I wouldn't label him some kind of can't miss superstar for Duke. I know a lot of people here have already got his jersey hanging in the rafters, but what little I've seen of him doesn't convince me he's a sure fire, dominant talent for us. I imagine he'll be a good player for us, but I'm not prepared to say more than that at this point.

Gary

If you and Jumbo agree, then you're definitely [both] wrong. I'm thinking Eliot will probably be first team AA his sophomore year.
:)

[nakhooda]

does anyone know if marty officially got a medical redshirt? thanks.

[shadowfax336]

If you and Jumbo agree, then you're definitely [both] wrong. I'm thinking Eliot will probably be first team AA his sophomore year.
:)

wait is this serious? I can't tell...

it makes it very difficult to reply to...


I'm hoping its not serious, although I'm afraid I don't see the joke.

[MChambers]

Seems like Gary and Jumbo sometimes disagree, so I was just making a joke. Hoped the emoticon would make that clear.

I have no idea how good Eliot will be. I actually agree with Gary and Jumbo on this, I guess.

I agree that Marty will have a tough battle for time, unless we have backcourt injuries.

[Cameron]

I'm not saying that Elliot is going to be a Hall-a-Famer as soon as he sets foot in Durham. That's not being logical. However, based on what I've seen, heard, and read about the kid, as well as watching him play in all-star games and various videos, I'm making a judgement that he'll be much better than 5 minutes per game. I'm not so sure he won't be a better freshman than what Nolan was, and that would say quite a bit, because Nolan was a pretty good freshman. Williams is extremely athletic, explosive off the dribble or off the outside jumper, can leap with the best of them, and has serious handle and passing ability in the open court. He's a natural talent. IMO, he has the look of something special, and that's not something you can say about every high schooler. Whatever it is, he's got it from what I have seen. And let's not forget that Williams was a highly sought after recruit by John Calipari, and Calipari, however dirty he may be, is a pretty good judge of immediate wing talent on the college level. If Calipari wanted Williams that bad for his dribble drive motion offense, then I'm glad we got him.

Now, before anyone gets ahead of themselves, I am in NO WAY trying to say that Calipari is the end all, be all recruiter of talent. He's good, but that's not true. I was just making an example. (Or perhaps it's just wishful thinking, I don't know.) But, I do know this: We could certainly use another explosive penetrator in Durham, who can rise up and shut people up. I hope I'm right.

Again, I'm not saying that Elliot is going to be All-ACC or even ACC Rookie of the Year. I do, however, think he can do some great things and battle for major PT. He has the all-around skill level and the natural talent to go with it. We just have to see how he adjusts to the big time.

[Bob Green]

Nobody knows what impact Elliot Williams will have on the 2008/9 team. However, I believe we can take a look at the performance of similarly ranked Duke freshmen guards over the past four seasons and establish a reasonable baseline for expectations:


Player Rank Minutes Points
2007/8 Smith 26 14.7 5.9
2006/7 Hendo 15 19.3 6.8
2006/7 Scheyer 20 33.7 12.2
2005/6 Paulus 18 32.3 6.7
2004/5 Nelson 30 19.2 6.2

Scout.com currently ranks E.W. as the #14 player in the Class of 2008. The table above reflects Scout.com ranking and minutes/points during each player's freshman season.

I believe 15 minutes and 8 points per game are realistic expectations for E.W. next season. If he exceeds the baseline, that will be great news for all of us. It is interesting to note that Williams is the highest ranked guard signed by Duke in a while. As always, fans (me included) are going to have to be patient and allow Elliot the opportunity to adjust to college life and the college game.

[shadowfax336]

hmm, thats useful data. I don't really pay attention to recruiting numbers beyond top 5, top 10, top 30, top 50, and top 100, I figure that you can basically put people into tiers along those lines. Still its interesting that he's the highest ranked guard in a while (albeit in a weaker class). Thats encouraging. Its always nice to have talent.

[devildeac]

His nickname isn't Les or Fave is it?

No nicknames for my son that I know of.

[JasonEvans]

does anyone know if marty officially got a medical redshirt? thanks.

Yes, he did.

-Jason

[BlueintheFace]

Honestly, I don't know that at all. I know he's ranked about 15-20 in a relatively weak class. I've seen him in some youtube highlights and in the McDonald's game. I have absolutely no idea whether he has the ability to make an immediate impact. I wouldn't classify him as a "special, special talent."

I feel the same. This is a very weak class and I have serious reservations about his ability to work into a deep and experienced Duke backcourt. In addition, he has a really young body. For a player who slashes and lives off points on the drive, he looks pretty thin.... especially in what is becoming an increasingly physical ACC of recent

[1Devil]

I'm not so sure about that... I can totally see him getting 10-12 minutes a game if not more. Paulus (~25 mins/gm), Scheyer (~28 mins/game), Henderson (~28 mins/game) start... Nolan (~15 mins/game) will come off the bench, but that leaves 24 mins/game to fill at those three positions, and If E-mail is even getting 15 mins/game I will be absolutely shocked. He could be good in a year or two, but he is definitely not ready to be a major contributor. I have to believe Coach K will give Marty the nod for a lot of those minutes


15 mins/game for Nolan? You've gotta be kidding. He's going to get 25.

Nolan: 25
Paulus: 25
Scheyer: 28
Henderson: 28
Singler: 29
McClure: 10
Thomas: 15
Zoubek: 20
Williams: 15
Czyz: 5

I'd love for Czyz to be good enough to take more of Thomas' minutes. OTOH, I'd also love Thomas to be good enough to earn as many minutes as he got this past season.

[BlueintheFace]

Nolan: 25
Paulus: 25
Scheyer: 28
Henderson: 28
Singler: 29
McClure: 10
Thomas: 15
Zoubek: 20
Williams: 15
Czyz: 5



Pocius with ZERO minutes... If Pocius has an injury free year and averages less than 2 minutes a game then I will change my signature to "I am the most ignorant poster on this board." That is a guarantee!

[BD80]

Pocius with ZERO minutes... If Pocius has an injury free year and averages less than 2 minutes a game then I will change my signature to "I am the most ignorant poster on this board." That is a guarantee!

Whoa there buckaroo, there are more than a few of us that have a prior claim to that tag-line ...

Besides, we need Marty on the floor as much as possible with Czyz, Zoubek, Scheyer and Singler so we can set broadcasting records for the most times announcers screw up the names of the players.

[shadowfax336]

and don't forget Paulus...

I heard more than a few Paul-loose pronunciations this year. The PA guys in MSG for the Pitt game and at the Verizon center both screwed his name up.

[oldnavy]

So I must assume that no one knows the answer to what I thought was a simple question... The status of Marty's recovery and if he has had any practice time with the team during the year. I sure know a heck of a lot about Elliot Williams and potential mins per game though, thanks!

[Jumbo]

So I must assume that no one knows the answer to what I thought was a simple question... The status of Marty's recovery and if he has had any practice time with the team during the year. I sure know a heck of a lot about Elliot Williams and potential mins per game though, thanks!

If someone had a direct answer for you, you would have received it. Marty had significant surgery. As far as I know, he didn't practice with the team post-surgery. I have no idea what sort of shape he's in right now.

[devildeac]

15 mins/game for Nolan? You've gotta be kidding. He's going to get 25.

Nolan: 25
Paulus: 25
Scheyer: 28
Henderson: 28
Singler: 29
McClure: 10
Thomas: 15
Zoubek: 20
Williams: 15
Czyz: 5

I'd love for Czyz to be good enough to take more of Thomas' minutes. OTOH, I'd also love Thomas to be good enough to earn as many minutes as he got this past season.

Marty doesn't play?, Marty doesn't play?, Marty doesn't play?...

OOOPS, wrong cheer.

Corrected cheer: Marty doesn't foul, Marty doesn't foul, Marty doesn't foul...

:D

[Cameron]

Why are you getting cocky, oldnavy? That's the best way never to get answered again. Goodness.

[oldnavy]

Not trying to get cocky at all, and I'm sorry if it sounded that way, but Jumbo was the only one to address the question on post number 60, and that was to say that he did know. Fair enough, then no one knows, that's an answer to a direct question. Thanks Jumbo.

Cameron, not sure why you seem to think that I am cocky? Perplexed maybe that it took 59 posts and asking the same question again before I got an answer would better describe it. Obviosusly posters are excited about and wanted to talk about the wing play and how the PT minutes will shake out next year. I enjoyed the great discussion, but it is only tangentialy related to what I had asked and in no way directly answered the question on how Marty's recovery is coming. But thanks for the friendly warning on how to not get a question answered, although I think I had already figured that out on my own.:)

[-jk]

Perplexed maybe that it took 59 posts and asking the same question again before I got an answer would better describe it. Obviosusly posters are excited about and wanted to talk about the wing play and how the PT minutes will shake out next year. I enjoyed the great discussion, but it is only tangentialy related to what I had asked and in no way directly answered the question on how Marty's recovery is coming.

And that's the nature of a BBS: Healthy discussions will wander. But only some. We try to keep things vaguely on topic.

-jk

[Got_Duke]

I assume you mean that those who don't agree with your opinion that Pocius will get playing time makes us no better than InsideCarolina posters. And I assume you mean that to be an insult.

I fail to see how stating that I believe that Pocius is the fifth-best of a group of five TREMENDOUS wing players, and that I believe this means Pocius will have trouble finding playing time, makes me a bad poster.

Forgive me if I've misinterpreted you. But I'm sorry that I believe you have an unrealistic opinion of Pocius's chances for minutes next year. We have a lot of REALLY REALLY good wings, and thus there aren't likely to be minutes for all of them. That's just a reality.

I didn't assume you all were acting like Inside Caroliners because you didn't agree he would get playing time

I said that because most were construing what I said and were being sarcastic - you not included. Your reply was actually logical and worth reading.

[CDu]

I didn't assume you all were acting like Inside Caroliners because you didn't agree he would get playing time

I said that because most were construing what I said and were being sarcastic - you not included. Your reply was actually logical and worth reading.

I'm sorry for misinterpreting your InsideCarolina comment. Thanks for the compliment. :)

[Cameron]

Yes, he IS that talented and I saw it first hand at an open practice where he just about dunked over Josh McRoberts several times


I didn't assume you all were acting like Inside Caroliners because you didn't agree he would get playing time

I said that because most were construing what I said and were being sarcastic - you not included. Your reply was actually logical and worth reading.


Yeah, well, factoring how much Marty playing time there should be next season based on a dunk that he may or may not have completed in the proximity of Josh McRoberts at an October practice in 2006 isn't exactly logical thinking either. And, to be honest, is quite Inside Carolina in itself.

[Charles Wicker]

last off the bench, then this board and being a DBB fan probably isn't worth it anymore. I say this because, what have been our weaknesses the past two, three, years? Quickness, aggressiveness to the basket, toughness which should not be understated, and an ability to finish!! Scheyer is good, but his inability to finish winds up being a liability. But as posters on here would say: he's always at the right place at the right time, his game awareness is amazing, etc, etc.

I like Scheyer, but we need players who can take it to the rim and finish! He will probably work on this in the summer, as it clearly is a weakness in his overall game. As it relates to PT, I think we all would do well, to let the players battle over PT and may the best players win. The dissapointment I have is that, the players mostly mentioned on these boards to receive the bulk of the PT next year, are the same players who don't have what it takes to bring home a NC. They can finish first or second in the regular season, with maybe one or two losses. And even two or three weeks at the number one spot in terms of national rankings. Only to get knocked out of the tournament due to the same problems as the past two or is it three years now.

Think about it: if Marty wasn't that good, why is there a thread with so many posts in it. And why is there such a thing as, "Martyholics?" I haven't seen E-WIll, or Cyzz, whatever his name is; but if it's toughness, athletic strength and quickness that he brings, let him battle Singler, Henderson, or whoever else are our lock-in favorites are. I'm tired of hearing the Marty doesn't play D. Heck Paulus gets beat, Scheyer gets beat, the whole team, because of their lack of speed gets beat, so what! We need offensive prowess, and if E-will, Marty, Olek or whoever can provide that, I say mix them in the rotation early, and maybe they'll be ready come March.

I know this is a rant, but I'm tired of seeing us lose year in and year out, because of the same issue! Come on, everbody sees the problems DBB has. We've got an image problem, a quickness problem, aggressiveness problem and a toughness problem. I don't fault the atheletes, I just wish the coaches would diversify their player personnel. The very area we are weak in, posters posit the players who can't provide that for us???? I just don't understand that? But it really isn't that big of a deal to me anymore. DBB is what it is.

[shadowfax336]

I say this because, what have been our weaknesses the past two, three, years? Quickness, aggressiveness to the basket, toughness which should not be understated, and an ability to finish!! Scheyer is good, but his inability to finish winds up being a liability. But as posters on here would say: he's always at the right place at the right time, his game awareness is amazing, etc, etc.

I like Scheyer, but we need players who can take it to the rim and finish! He will probably work on this in the summer, as it clearly is a weakness in his overall game.
Did you really just say that Scheyer can't finish? Before Jumbo drops a statistical hammer on you I think I'll just point out that Scheyer is an incredibly creative shotmaker, and saying that he can't finish really just doesn't line up with reality very well...

[Karl Beem]

Did you really just say that Scheyer can't finish? Before Jumbo drops a statistical hammer on you I think I'll just point out that Scheyer is an incredibly creative shotmaker, and saying that he can't finish really just doesn't line up with reality very well...

Agreed. He really improved in that regard after his 1st year.

[hughgs]

Think about it: if Marty wasn't that good, why is there a thread with so many posts in it. And why is there such a thing as, "Martyholics?"

Hmm, the definition of a good basketball player is the number of anonymous posters who comment about him? Can I start a thread about EarlJam? Then, when everyone responds we can use that as a basis for how good he must really be and then we can talk about how he should be in the NBA.

[mgtr]

^Also agreed. Singler, Scheyer, and Henderson are the heart of the team. I believe that any coach in the nation would be delighted to have a chance to build a team around them.

[Cameron]

then this board and being a DBB fan probably isn't worth it anymore.


The dissapointment I have is that, the players mostly mentioned on these boards to receive the bulk of the PT next year, are the same players who don't have what it takes to bring home a NC. They can finish first or second in the regular season, with maybe one or two losses.

Well, if that's how you really feel about our guys in the Duke Blue uniform then perhaps it's best you part ways now. Why even waste your time?

Unbelievable.

[BlueintheFace]

Did you really just say that Scheyer can't finish? Before Jumbo drops a statistical hammer on you I think I'll just point out that Scheyer is an incredibly creative shotmaker, and saying that he can't finish really just doesn't line up with reality very well...

He didn't say that Jon couldn't finish... what he said is that Jon can't finish at the rim off the drive. Though Jon IS DEFINITELY an incredibly creative shotmaker, I believe it is fair to say that Jon often gets in over his head when he gets to the lane in the half court set. Once in awhile he makes an amazing circus shot, but for every one of those instances there are 4 or 5 instances where he throws the ball up in traffic (as all of the crazies groan) only for it to be swatted out of bounds or (more often) barely graze the rim/backboard. He is improving, but there is a lot of work left to be done on this aspect of his game.

That being said, in his first offseason he made significant strides with his mid range game and ability to probe the defense off the dribble. There is no reason for us to believe he won't improve at the rim as well..

I also should add that in almost all other respects I disagree with Wicker's post...

[Jumbo]

Did you really just say that Scheyer can't finish? Before Jumbo drops a statistical hammer on you I think I'll just point out that Scheyer is an incredibly creative shotmaker, and saying that he can't finish really just doesn't line up with reality very well...

I can't drop any kind of a hammer on that. I'm too exhausted. Posts like that make me wonder I why I even bother with the Internet at all. It just makes me sad.

[Charles Wicker]

Come on people, stats. We got eliminated in the second round and your'e referring to the minuteness of stats? I must admit, most posters here are great at pointing out the nooks and crannies of players particular games. Minutes played, free throw attempts, assist to t/o ratio's etc, etc. But at times it seems as if your statistical prowess only makes excuses for explaining the true problems of the team.

Let the players play. Let the best players play. We lost because we couldn't effectively get to the basket and finish. This is too simple. I know most of you posters are smart, and actually I like reading your posts: but come on, look at the Wake Forest loss: look at the Miami loss: look at the Pitt loss: the WV loss:
Clemson, all those teams had quick, penetrating, scorers. If you research some of my posts, you might find that I like Paulus and Scheyer. I think they have great skills, and also agree they are great to have on the floor.

But Marty brings something I think they haven't currently exhibited. And given the very scant appearances of Marty, you should wonder why we think so much of him with the small amount of time he's had. Again. Diversify our player personnel.

All due respect


.

[shadowfax336]

Let the players play. Let the best players play. We lost because we couldn't effectively get to the basket and finish. This is too simple. I know most of you posters are smart, and actually I like reading your posts: but come on, look at the Wake Forest loss: look at the Miami loss: look at the Pitt loss: the WV loss:
Clemson, all those teams had quick, penetrating, scorers.
Pitt has quick penetrating scorers? As a longtime Pitt fan thats news to me. I guess I should be excited...
No seriously, Pitt was built around a strong PG who can shoot and bull his way into the lane (Fields), a spot up jump shooter (Ramon), a creative scorer who again used his size to get looks (Cook), a versatile forward who can shoot and rebound (Young), and a big bullish center (Blair). Where exactly is the quick penetrator there?
And WVU isn't any better actually. They have guys who can backdoor you to death, and Alexander is a beast, but my recollection of the game is not watching a bunch of speedsters run by us. Its that we were physically punched in the mouth when the team was already tired, and that a flurry of 3s in the second half sealed the deal.
My recollection of the Miami game is that we lost mainly because we decided to let Dwayne Collins (is the name right?) dunk any time he felt like it, and while Clemson does have rivers, they also have two big time forwards in Mays and Booker who had a lot to do with that win.

So saying that we lost to teams with quick penetrating scorers is simply not accurate.

[Channing]

Come on people, stats. We got eliminated in the second round and your'e referring to the minuteness of stats? I must admit, most posters here are great at pointing out the nooks and crannies of players particular games. Minutes played, free throw attempts, assist to t/o ratio's etc, etc. But at times it seems as if your statistical prowess only makes excuses for explaining the true problems of the team.

Let the players play. Let the best players play. We lost because we couldn't effectively get to the basket and finish. This is too simple. I know most of you posters are smart, and actually I like reading your posts: but come on, look at the Wake Forest loss: look at the Miami loss: look at the Pitt loss: the WV loss:
Clemson, all those teams had quick, penetrating, scorers. If you research some of my posts, you might find that I like Paulus and Scheyer. I think they have great skills, and also agree they are great to have on the floor.

But Marty brings something I think they haven't currently exhibited. And given the very scant appearances of Marty, you should wonder why we think so much of him with the small amount of time he's had. Again. Diversify our player personnel.

All due respect


it reminds me of the old saying: The most popular guy in town is the backup QB.

[Scorp4me]

I know this is a rant, but I'm tired of seeing us lose year in and year out, because of the same issue!

I must have missed a bunch of losses last year...and the last decade:confused:

[Jumbo]

But I'm going to respond to you. As a preface, I want everyone to know that I am trying my hardest to remain civil with someone whose posts I have found to be incredibly insulting. If I fail in this regard, please let me know. As I said, I'm trying.


Come on people, stats. We got eliminated in the second round and your'e referring to the minuteness of stats?
Stats are a reflection of effectiveness, but not the sole determining factor. No one is saying anything different. It's ridiculous to dismiss them, just as it is ridiculous to rely only on statistics. I would be MORE than happy to discuss actual basketball with you, though. I know hoops much better than I know statistics. I wish all of Duke's game tapes were somehow available on the Internet. I'd take great joy in pointing out the subtleties of the game that you and others don't always grasp.


Let the players play. Let the best players play.
They do.


We lost because we couldn't effectively get to the basket and finish. This is too simple.
Sometimes things seem "too simple" because they are, in fact, wrong. Duke didn't have finishers? What was DeMarcus Nelson? What is Gerald Henderson? What is Jon Scheyer (here's a hint -- FTs count as "finishing")? What is Nolan Smith? Duke lost all its games because we couldn't get to the basket and finish? Hogwash. I'll explain as I go along.


look at the Wake Forest loss: look at the Miami loss: look at the Pitt loss: the WV loss: Clemson, all those teams had quick, penetrating, scorers.
Wait. I thought we lost because we don't have guys who can finish off the dribble. Why would those guys' quick scorers matter? Oh, wait ... DEFENSE! Voila! A whole other aspect of the game! So could there be other reasons why Duke might lose? Indeed! Let's look at those games.
Wake: Duke gave up 86 points (it's ok if I refer to points scored, right? Or is that too "statistical?"). That's unacceptable for any winning team. Duke did a fine job of getting into the lane in that game (you might remember how well Nolan Smith played). Duke did so well that Nelson, Henderson and Smith took 19 FTs (darn, there I go again with stats). Sadly, the team shot 13-for-25 from the line that night. Meanwhile, Teague was terrific off the bounce for Wake; no question. But if you remember, he set up his drives with some early jumpers. Ish Smith wasn't particularly good that game, though. And the guy who gave us fits was James Johnson, an inside-out forward. I'm not sure how that game fits your "simple" pattern of Duke losses.

Miami: Duke allowed 96 points. Do I need to say anything else?

Pitt: Duke's defense was fabulous, so this game isn't like either of the other two. And as another poster said, Pitt hardly has quick guards who can finish at the rim. Fields is the closest to that description, and he relies more on strength than quickness. Ramon rarely went anywhere near the hoop. Cook and Benjamin weren't threats off the dribble. DeJuan Blair went nuts inside (Duke might've had a slight problem with big guys this season ... just saying). And on offense, Duke missed a ton of FTs again, shot horribly from beyond the arc and turned the ball over 20 times in a slow-tempo game. But guards finishing inside? You might recall what Duke did in big spots. This (http://youtube.com/watch?v=1G6f7IQsYpA)was a pretty quick, powerful move for a finish ... and one. It put Duke up by one in overtime. You'll also remember Henderson driving and kicking to Singler for a key three. You get the point. Guards finishing in the paint was about ninth on a list of eight problems from that game.

West Virginia: Our guys didn't finish inside. They didn't finish outside. They didn't finish anywhere. They couldn't score. They all looked like they had dead legs in the second half. And who were West Virginia's guards that were such great athletes who finished around the hoop? Duke didn't have any problems stopping "quick, penetrating scorers" that fateful afternoon. Duke had trouble grabbing the ball after WVU's bricklayers missed, and Duke had trouble throwing the ball in the ocean.

Clemson: Clemson's guards hardly burned Duke off the dribble. Rivers, Hammonds and Oglesby spent most of the game launching threes. Stitt was awful. Duke's guards did just as good a job getting into the lane. Unfortunately, Mr. Singler shot 1-for-9 that game, missing open look after open look. Stuff happens.


If you research some of my posts, you might find that I like Paulus and Scheyer. I think they have great skills, and also agree they are great to have on the floor.

Why are you lumping Paulus and Scheyer together. They are not similar players in any way. Paulus has essentially become a spot-up shooter who sets up the offense and struggles on defense. Scheyer is a fantastic wing defender (watch him deny guys away from the ball -- it's stunning) who rarely gets beat off the dribble. On offense, he routinely gets past his man to set up kickouts, and if he gets a step on his defender, he is great at drawing contact at the paint (see his 32 FTs over his last four games -- darn, another stat). He's an excellent passer and ball-handler who shoots well off the dribble. You know what his weakest attribute might be? Spot-up shooting. He misses too many wide-open threes.


But Marty brings something I think they haven't currently exhibited.

What would that be? The ability to jump high? I could've sworn Markie and Gerald had pretty good verticals too. And what good is Marty's supposed ability to finish in traffic (which we've only seen, as you said, on scant occasions) if he turns it over trying to get there (which, sadly, we've seen on more occasions). Also, there's another end of the floor. Do you think Marty is close to the defender Scheyer is?


And given the very scant appearances of Marty, you should wonder why we think so much of him with the small amount of time he's had.
Who is "we?" Speak for yourself. I'll speak for myself when I say that I believe people tend to latch on to the good plays made by guys who don't play much and easily excuse their mistakes, because people are only looking for positive "signs." Meanwhile, the more see other guys on the court, the more we latch on to weaknesses that irritate us with growing frequency. Or, to put it in trite terms, the grass is always greener.


Again. Diversify our player personnel.

Diversify our player personnel? Sure. I'd love a big guy with strength and quickness who can score on the block, rebound and block shots. You know -- Duke's biggest problem right now. But perimeter personnel? How much more diverse can it get? Let's look at next year's perimeter six-pack:
Paulus: a point guard with a beautiful stroke from beyond the arc who struggles to get into the lane and has trouble guarding quick point guards.
Henderson: a high-riser who can beat anyone off the bounce with a combo of quickness and strength. He has a beautiful mid-range jumper when elevates. His on-ball D could get better, though, as could his court vision and shooting range.
Scheyer: a playmaking two-guard who is probably Duke's best passer. He's a gifted scorer, particularly off the dribble (love that pull-up). He gets to the line quite a bit, especially considering his role for much of the season was "go stand in the corner." Then Duke put the ball in his hands, he started making plays, started getting into the lane and started scoring in a variety of ways. His defense is excellent -- ask any member of the staff or Wayne Ellington if you don't believe me. He needs to knock down open jumpers with more consistency and add upper body strength.
Smith: A combo guard who excels in the open floor. He's a good defender at the point of attack when his focus is high. He needs to learn to run the offense and to pick his spots. When he's on, he has the speed to beat most guards off the dribble and showed himself to be quite adept at finishing in traffic.
Pocius: He's best in the open floor, where his natural athleticism can shine. His weakest aspect is his wing defense -- he tends to lose his man through screens and isn't quick to react as a help defender. He's decent guarding the ball, but probably below-average. In the half-court offense, he has shown an ability to occasionally knock down open threes. When he is playing within himself and with poise, he has the capability to drive baseline and finish with an aggressive move. But he also tends to play too fast on offense, making him prone to turnovers or poorly selected shots.
Williams: We haven't seen him at Duke. From all accounts, he is a quick, skinny lefty who loves to put the ball on the deck. He seems to have a nice stroke from the outside. I'm not going to beging to try to evaluate his defense, because playing D at Duke is unlike anything at the high school level.

By my count, there's only one thing we're missing among those perimeter players -- a true point guard who is quick enough to get into the lane and create for others. Beyond that (especially if Gerald develops a post-up game), we have every other aspect you could possibly want covered on the perimeter. Diversity, indeed.

[shadowfax336]

the hammer came down...

[Got_Duke]

Yeah, well, factoring how much Marty playing time there should be next season based on a dunk that he may or may not have completed in the proximity of Josh McRoberts at an October practice in 2006 isn't exactly logical thinking either. And, to be honest, is quite Inside Carolina in itself.

Nothing is definite and I could definitely see him playing at least 10minutes per game given the void left by Nelson. That most likely moves Scheyer to the starting lineup with Singler, Paulus, Henderson, and Thomas.

I am not qualifying Marty's POSSIBLE minutes on the fact he dunked on McRoberts. I used that illustration to show that Marty is indeed talented and talented enough to play meaningful minutes on this squad.

Smith, of course, will be the "sixth man." Zoubek will definitely get more playing time but I see him as the "third man" in the 6'8"+ department.

When Paulus and Scheyer need a breath or two, Smith will definitely come in to spell Paulus and most of the time to spell Scheyer, but I could totally see Marty also coming in for Scheyer given that third wing position's height needs.

Also, with the new system of spacing and leaving an open lane, Marty would be a wise tool to use against the bigger wings for a drive or against the smaller wings for a drive and kick or drive and pop.

Any of this logical to you yet?

[Jumbo]

Nothing is definite and I could definitely see him playing at least 10minutes per game given the void left by Nelson. That most likely moves Scheyer to the starting lineup with Singler, Paulus, Henderson, and Thomas.

I am not qualifying Marty's POSSIBLE minutes on the fact he dunked on McRoberts. I used that illustration to show that Marty is indeed talented and talented enough to play meaningful minutes on this squad.

Smith, of course, will be the "sixth man." Zoubek will definitely get more playing time but I see him as the "third man" in the 6'8"+ department.

When Paulus and Scheyer need a breath or two, Smith will definitely come in to spell Paulus and most of the time to spell Scheyer, but I could totally see Marty also coming in for Scheyer given that third wing position's height needs.

Also, with the new system of spacing and leaving an open lane, Marty would be a wise tool to use against the bigger wings for a drive or against the smaller wings for a drive and kick or drive and pop.

Any of this logical to you yet?

Logical to me. As I said, I'd love to see Marty put up a real fight with Elliot Williams to be Duke's fifth wing. May the best man win.

[dukemomLA]

Personally, I can't quite figure out the negative vibe concerning Marty P.

IF he's healthy and ready to go, and IF Coach K will 'stick to,' or 'try for a whole season' a true rotation of all the talented players he recruits, I think Marty should be given a good amount of PT.''

Again, I base this on conditioning and injury-free. BUT if that's the case, he brings talent and great intensity. Give him his due!! He can/will be a needed asset to this team. With all the talent assembled, PLEASE give us a GREAT in-and-out rotation that baffles opponents and keeps all fresh for the Tourney.

Switching up from (of course) our signature Great D and one-on-one, to more zone on occasion, and switching up over-and-over again, we can bring fits to all opponents -- even without (sigh, who cares) a 7'2" center. Let's run-and-gun, bring joy and fun and fierceness to every play. (And please let's hire a FT coach).

[JasonEvans]

I want to commend Jumbo for a thorough and logical response to Charles Wicker (a poster whose sig represents the very definition of irony). He displayed far more patience than I would have.

--Jason "anyone who ever complains about Jumbo should offer him a hearty congrats for how he dealt with that... uhhhh... opinion" Evans

[Cameron]

Got Duke:

It doesn't matter whether it "sounds" logical or not. What matters is whether or not it actually happens. From what we have seen so far, Marty has cleary not been ready to play in the big time, despite his amazing missed dunks or not, and it's not even close. THAT was my position. He hasn't deserved the PT. Period. He's been erratic, a poor shooter from the outside, and he's played little defense of worth. (He's also had some trouble with injuries, however, so he definitely deserves some leeway for that). But, for the most part, and unfortunately for Marty, he has been our fourth or fifth best guard each year on campus. That's the reality here.

With that said, I have never stated that I wouldn't be pleased to see Marty develop into the type of player he is obviously capable of becoming. I would be more than happy to see him progress into a main rotation guy, because that would then mean Marty has developed into a capable defender, a turnover free wing man, and a good outside shooter (as well as holding the amazing athleticism and ability to finish above the rim that he has always had). That would be a fine, fine addition to our rotation.

I hope he can do it.


also keep in mind Marty has not even come close to the minutes DeMarcus played

so that career high of "only 14points" must also be taken into context

Marty has the ability to average double figures in points if given the minutes

Did it ever occur to your commonsensical self that perhaps Marty didn't get that playing time because he hadn't yet proven on the court that he deserved it? Yes, injuries have a factor at certain points. There is no denying that. But, in the time he has been healthy, Marty just hasn't "got it" (if that's at all logical to you). Again, I hope I'm wrong about this next season. I hope Marty can become the man.

[jimsumner]

The problem, imo, with posts like those of Mr. Wicker is that one has to assume either one of two things. Either Mike Krzyzewski doesn't know his own team well enough to properly allocate the 200 minutes of playing time he has at his disposal or for some perverse reason he choses to play his lesser talented players at the expense of his more talented players.

I rather suspect neither is the case.

[Charles Wicker]

The hammer was laid, and I'll acquiesce to this community DBB posters. And since our subjects are 18, 19 and 20 year old student athletes, I'll proceede with a tone of support and encouragement for their efforts at entertaining long lasting Duke fans like myself. Let's play ball next year!

[JasonEvans]

The hammer was laid, and I'll acquiesce to this community DBB posters. And since our subjects are 18, 19 and 20 year old student athletes, I'll proceede with a tone of support and encouragement for their efforts at entertaining long lasting Duke fans like myself. Let's play ball next year!

Thanks for taking "the hammer" well and with good humor, Charles. Trust me when I tell you that your reply here really does distinguish you from many other posters who have been "hammered" ;)

It is appreciated.

-Jason "the Jumbo hammer is the biggest hammer of them all ;)" Evans

[detule]

-Jason "the Jumbo hammer is the biggest hammer of them all ;)" Evans

Jason, please....This is a family bulletin-board after all....
:)

[elvis14]

I hope Marty gets a real shot this coming year. In the 2006-2007 season after all the talk on here about how bad Marty's defense was, I started watching him closely when he was in the game (a DVR's a great thing). I noticed a few things. First, I noticed that as the season went on he got better on the defensive side. Did he become a great defender, surely not but he improved beyond a liability. The next thing I noticed is that when he made a mistake he was benched almost immediately. After that I noticed that at times when he made a mistake or a near mistake you could see him looking over to the bench expecting the hook. It was sad, really the way it played out and I almost wish I had never read all about him on here. Then he gets injured this past season, which sucked. I'm glad he got to red shirt.

Jumbo said, I'd love to see Marty put up a real fight with Elliot Williams to be Duke's fifth wing. May the best man win. I agree with that and I hope he earns more playing time. I also hope he earns the right to have playing time without looking over his shoulder so much. I'm one of those people that think that if Marty is healthy and is given more PT that he would be an asset to the team. Was that game vs. NCSU where he started and played great just an anomaly or is he capable of doing that fairly consistently given the opportunity? I don't know but I'd like to find out.

I'm already looking forward to next season and to what our new players can do and how our existing players have progressed.

[oldnavy]

I said earlier, that I don't think that Marty needs to play a minute during a single game to be a tremendous asset to the team next year. The old adage that games are won in practice applies. Imagine practicing against a healthy Marty day in and day out, it can't help but make the TEAM better. That was why I was wondering how his recovery was coming and when he would be released to play. It's all good and Coach K will do that thing he does which is maximize his talent for the good of the TEAM. I can't wait 'til next year!

[grc5]

I can't drop any kind of a hammer on that. I'm too exhausted. Posts like that make me wonder I why I even bother with the Internet at all. It just makes me sad.

http://xkcd.com/386/

[Acymetric]

http://xkcd.com/386/

I'd like to say that xkcd is EXCELLENT.

[Got_Duke]

But, in the time he has been healthy, Marty just hasn't "got it" Again, I hope I'm wrong about this next season. I hope Marty can become the man.

Oh, so I guess he really didn't have it in the 2007 tournament game against Virginia Commonwealth University (one of my alma maters)? That was a TOURNAMENT game and he proved he is talented enough. Oh, and that was when he was healthy. So, wait a minute - I just stumbled upon something here..... "In the time he has been healthy" Marty has shown he's "got it."

And like I said, "nothing is definite." You are treating my comments as an absolute. Nonetheless, I've got rebuttals.

[Cameron]

Got Duke:

One or two good games out of 40 doesn't necessarily equate to greatness. Sure, I remember those games well (NC State and VCU), and Marty played great. But, then again, so did Nick Horvath against Wake as a freshman. The famous "Nick H: The Birth of a Three-Point God" game, wherein Horvath hit 3 triples and scored 13 points. After that, it was all we heard about from Nickotine Addicts.

If you really do believe Marty has played better than our top four guards over the last few years, on a consistent basis, then you haven't been watching. He hasn't earned it. If he had, he would be playing the big time minutes you ask for.

I'm done with this argument. Believe what you want.

[Charles Wicker]

Jums, do you happen to know the particular reason Ricky Price was benched (dog house) the latter part of his senior season? Also, why are so many people taliking about Marty? It just doesn't make sense, if he's that deficient. Look at the number of people who've either read or responded to this post. Why is this?

[jimsumner]

Ricky Price was academically ineligible the first semester of his senior year (1997-98). By the time he regained his eligibilty, the parade had passed him by. He wasn't so much benched, as he never got into the rotation.

For the record, this was a pretty deep and talented team. The perimeter rotation included Langdon, Wojo, Avery, Carrawell, and Chappell.

[shadowfax336]

Jums, do you happen to know the particular reason Ricky Price was benched (dog house) the latter part of his senior season? Also, why are so many people taliking about Marty? It just doesn't make sense, if he's that deficient. Look at the number of people who've either read or responded to this post. Why is this?

Because its an interesting discussion, and people like to speculate about what the rotation could be like next season.

What are you trying to imply?

[Karl Beem]

Ricky Price was academically ineligible the first semester of his senior year (1997-98). By the time he regained his eligibilty, the parade had passed him by. He wasn't so much benched, as he never got into the rotation.

For the record, this was a pretty deep and talented team. The perimeter rotation included Langdon, Wojo, Avery, Carrawell, and Chappell.

I recall he was #11 on that team!:eek:

[Charles Wicker]

remember him being academically ineligible, because the year I'm referring to, he got in late in a game when we needed a miralce. And I remember being confused as to why he was put in then. It was obvious. In fact, "some" say K messed his career up. (not that I agree) But to this day, people will say, "remember Ricky Price." It was as if something happened for him to have gotten benched like that. And, we all remember the athleticism, energy and talent Ricky had.

I'm not necessarily implying anything, it's just when I read an earlier post, I thought about Ricky Price and the situation he experienced in his latter year.
By the way, when was the last time Ol Ricky came to Cameron? Is he still welcomed in the DBB family? Just curious

[jimsumner]

Trust me, Ricky Price messed up Ricky Price's career.

And yes, he comes back to Cameron and Duke and is a part of the family.

[Jumbo]

remember him being academically ineligible, because the year I'm referring to, he got in late in a game when we needed a miralce. And I remember being confused as to why he was put in then. It was obvious. In fact, "some" say K messed his career up. (not that I agree) But to this day, people will say, "remember Ricky Price." It was as if something happened for him to have gotten benched like that. And, we all remember the athleticism, energy and talent Ricky had.

I'm not necessarily implying anything, it's just when I read an earlier post, I thought about Ricky Price and the situation he experienced in his latter year.
By the way, when was the last time Ol Ricky came to Cameron? Is he still welcomed in the DBB family? Just curious

Do some research. He was academically ineligible for the first semester. He messed up. That said, he is indeed wecomed in the Duke basketball family.

[Got_Duke]

Got Duke:

One or two good games out of 40 doesn't necessarily equate to greatness.

If you really do believe Marty has played better than our top four guards over the last few years, on a consistent basis, then you haven't been watching. He hasn't earned it. If he had, he would be playing the big time minutes you ask for.


I would like for you to personally search my posts for the word "great" or "greatness" when I was qualifying my position. Those words simply were not written by me.

Nor did I ever write that Marty "has played better than our top four guards over the last few years." Search for where I wrote that as well. On another note, he couldn't have possibly played on a consistent basis over the last few years. He was injured, which you alluded to previously.

And regarding the "big time minutes" I ask for, I was not aware that 10 minutes was a large portion of minutes. It is simply 1/4 of a single game, merely 25% of game action.

My point was he deserves to be the second or third guard off the bench, but will most likely be third or fourth off the bench.

I am not campaigning for him to have a starting role.

And yes, this argument should be finished because your last post holds no argumentative weight, as I have broken down your quotes.

Worthy of discussion, but you've got to clean up your arguments.

[Cameron]

And yes, this argument should be finished because your last post holds no argumentative weight, as I have broken down your quotes.


You didn't break down anything. Marty, when healthy, hasn't played well enough to warrant any line of minutes outside five or six. If he had, Coach Krzyzewski would have done it.

The end.

[Got_Duke]

He couldn't possibly have given Marty the minutes as he was injured, which you have stated several times.

He hasn't had a chance to prove himself outside of the NCAA Tournament game, but when he scored in double-figures that game he showed he IS talented enough.

How can a coach let him prove himself if he is injured? He can't go in the game....

[CDu]

He couldn't possibly have given Marty the minutes as he was injured, which you have stated several times.

He hasn't had a chance to prove himself outside of the NCAA Tournament game, but when he scored in double-figures that game he showed he IS talented enough.

How can a coach let him prove himself if he is injured? He can't go in the game....

So are you saying that Pocius has been injured for the entirity of his Duke career? If so, that's completely incorrect.

And if not, then why are you suggesting that Pocius hasn't had a chance to prove himself other than the one game he did well? There have been LOTS of chances, when Pocius was healthy, to prove himself. He had two years leading up to his one shining moment, for example. And he had a preseason and a handful of games before the injury this year to prove himself and failed to do so.

Lots of players can come in and score double figures in a single game. It's doing something CONSISTENTLY that proves you are good enough.

Pocius has loads of athleticism. But he's never shown any inclination that his athleticism is enough to allow him to contribute regularly at the college level. Maybe the lightbulb goes off this summer and he outplays Williams to be the 5th guard. But I'm certainly not expecting it to happen.

[Cameron]

Got Duke:

Listen, I like Marty, I hope Marty can break into the lineup, and I hope Marty can succeed in that lineup. That is my wish.

As I said, believe what you like. Fact is, Marty hasn't earned it on a consistent basis when he's been healthy. PERIOD.

[Turtleboy]

As I said, believe what you like. Fact is, Marty hasn't earned it on a consistent basis when he's been healthy. PERIOD.Things would be so much easier around here if folks would just listen to the posters who know what the real skinny is. PERIOD. END OF STORY. GAME OVER BABEE.

[Jumbo]

He couldn't possibly have given Marty the minutes as he was injured, which you have stated several times.

He hasn't had a chance to prove himself outside of the NCAA Tournament game, but when he scored in double-figures that game he showed he IS talented enough.

How can a coach let him prove himself if he is injured? He can't go in the game....

This argument is getting silly, but let's at least try to keep our facts straight. Pocius never scored in double-figures in the NCAA Tournament. He scored three points against VCU.

[sagegrouse]

He couldn't possibly have given Marty the minutes as he was injured, which you have stated several times.

He hasn't had a chance to prove himself outside of the NCAA Tournament game, but when he scored in double-figures that game he showed he IS talented enough.

How can a coach let him prove himself if he is injured? He can't go in the game....

I am a huge Marty fan -- in that I think there is talent, and I really want him to succeed (and help the team).

I thought hewas making some progress this year, until the injury bug bit him.

However, when he played in earlier years, he had trouble staying on the court (i.e., the "hook" was out). While he bounds around with impressive hops, he was also playing defense like a kangaroo, hopping from position to position, instead of sliding and anticipating. somewhat comical, really. Under those circumstances, Coach couldn't leave him on the floor. I doubt that this was the way he was playing in practice and more a matter of nerves and excitement, but....

Anyway, I wish him (and us) the best.

sagegrouse

[Wander]

I don't think there should be many minutes for Marty next year - as I said earlier, we'll have the best starting trio in the country at the spots between point guard at center. He could play a really important role the year after, though, if G leaves and Nolan/Jon have to take more PG minutes from Paulus graduating.

That said, I have no idea why Pocius didn't play more in 2006-2007, when our offense was, let's put it nicely, less than ideal. That was a stupid move by K.

[shadowfax336]

That was a stupid move by K.

Thats a bit harsh...
Could it be that he was dealing with injuries and wasn't practicing for a good chunk of the season? Or is it just Coach K's stupidity?

[BD80]

That said, I have no idea why Pocius didn't play more in 2006-2007, when our offense was, let's put it nicely, less than ideal. That was a stupid move by K.

Come on. The winningest active coach in mens Div I bball, and 3 yrs from being #1 all time, and you criticize whether he played the ninth or tenth kid in the rotation enough? How many practices did you watch?

I think people are missing a key niche that Marty can fill this year. We lose Markie, who was our leading rebounder. If Marty can be aggressive on the boards, his leaping ability and great timing could be very valuable, particularly coming from the off side when G or Singler shoot.

It still troubles me that most fans look a one single stat - points scored - in reaching an opinion about whether a player deserves minutes. Even the plus/minus doesn't tell the whole story. If a player is in for 3 minutes and outscores the entire opposition by 4 points in those three minutes, it would still be a negative effort if his matador defense leads to four fouls on key starters trying to cover for his defensive lapses. Our team is still way too thin (pun intended) in the post to have weak perimeter defenders on the floor. When it clicks with Marty defensively (and I think it will), I think he will earn significant minutes

[Wander]

Come on. The winningest active coach in mens Div I bball, and 3 yrs from being #1 all time, and you criticize whether he played the ninth or tenth kid in the rotation enough? How many practices did you watch?


Can we stay away from the "how dare you criticize my idol" and "Coach K knows more about coaching than you do" arguments? They're close to worthless as arguments, and usually are employed really immaturely.




It still troubles me that most fans look a one single stat - points scored - in reaching an opinion about whether a player deserves minutes.

Who's exclusively talking about points scored? Not me. I'm saying our offense two years ago was mediocre not only in points scored, but in efficiency, balance, scoring in close end of game situations, and improving and growing throughout the year. Pocius is a guy who I thought could have really helped our offense overall - not just in cranking up PPG averages.

Look, I've already stated that I don't think he should earn big minutes next year, as we have a ridiculously good crop of wing players, especially in Scheyer and Henderson. So the whole point about two years ago isn't all that important and not worth getting into a pissing match about.

[BD80]

That said, I have no idea why Pocius didn't play more in 2006-2007, when our offense was, let's put it nicely, less than ideal. That was a stupid move by K.


Can we stay away from the "how dare you criticize my idol" and "Coach K knows more about coaching than you do" arguments? They're close to worthless as arguments, and usually are employed really immaturely.


Funny how someone who disagrees with you seems immature. Calling Coach K "stupid" seemed immature to me.

It is also funny how we basically seem to agree on Marty's prospects this coming year. Let's both root for his success.