Academic performance of athletes

[mgtr]

I believe that student performance will continue to be a subject that is raised. I heard Father Hesburgh from Notre Dame address this subject some years ago. He made the point that they had no easy majors (Phys Ed), but 100% of basketball and all but one football player were going to graduate on time.
It would be interesting to track how our players do, particularly vs other ACC schools. What majors, and with what success. I am not talking about the broad measures that are required, but info specific to individual players. For example, Nelson is a senior. What is his major and how is he doing? Paulus is a junior, ditto. Redick and Williams graduated recently -- what were their majors? How were they as students?
In a way, just trying to put a little flesh on the bone. If Duke is indeed more than a diploma mill (and it is) and more than a minor league farm team (and it is), then we ought to be proud of the atheletic graduates who are produced.

[allenmurray]

I believe that student performance will continue to be a subject that is raised. I heard Father Hesburgh from Notre Dame address this subject some years ago. He made the point that they had no easy majors (Phys Ed), but 100% of basketball and all but one football player were going to graduate on time.
It would be interesting to track how our players do, particularly vs other ACC schools. What majors, and with what success. I am not talking about the broad measures that are required, but info specific to individual players. For example, Nelson is a senior. What is his major and how is he doing? Paulus is a junior, ditto. Redick and Williams graduated recently -- what were their majors? How were they as students?
In a way, just trying to put a little flesh on the bone. If Duke is indeed more than a diploma mill (and it is) and more than a minor league farm team (and it is), then we ought to be proud of the atheletic graduates who are produced.

That cuts a little too close to the bone. I believe that even as public figures college athletes are entitled to some privacy. To show overall GPA/SAT/Graduation rates for a school is informative. Even for a team may be okay. But to show individual numbers by athlete is an invasion of privacy. I have no need to know whether DeMarcus got a C or a B in his most recent Chemistry course, nor do I have any right even to know if this is on his course load. Knowing that he is enrolled in a course of study and is academically eligible is all the public should be entitled to.

[Bluedawg]

That cuts a little too close to the bone. I believe that even as public figures college athletes are entitled to some privacy. To show overall GPA/SAT/Graduation rates for a school is informative. Even for a team may be okay. But to show individual numbers by athlete is an invasion of privacy. I have no need to know whether DeMarcus got a C or a B in his most recent Chemistry course, nor do I have any right even to know if this is on his course load. Knowing that he is enrolled in a course of study and is academically eligible is all the public should be entitled to.

I agree completely.

Even though they are public figures there is still the "student" part of student-athlete. That would never be suggested for the non-athlete student. We have no right in their private lives.

[Bluedog]

I agree that GPA/SAT for individual students should not be made public, but finding majors and who made the Academic All-ACC and the like is public knowledge. You can look up most of the players' majors on their page on the goduke.com roster page unless they are an underclassmen and undecided. It says it under "Personal." JJ majored in history and minored in cultural anthropology. Shel majored in sociology with a markets and management studies certificate. Doesn't say the majors for Nelson and Paulus on their pages, though. In 2006, Paulus and Pocius were Academic All-ACC. Only Miami also had more than one player on the list. Last year, Pocius was Academic All-ACC.

[ACC Expat]

IANAL, but I'm almost 100% positive that distributing information on individual student performance without a signed waiver (at least) from the student would be a gross violation of FERPA regulations. Schools take this stuff pretty seriously; technically I'm not supposed to even discuss a student's grades with him or her over email because you never know who can read the email.

[mgtr]

I agree about GPA for current students, but I bet it is possible to get GPA for graduated students -- it is on their transcript, and that is probably not that hard to get your hands on. At a minimum, Duke employees can get that info, and then (if personal intrusion is an issue) it could be published by sport for, say, all graduates of the last few classes. Then continue every year with a moving average. Over time, the results could be quite interesting. It may be more trouble than it is worth, however.
The point of all is to show whether Duke actually has better student-athletes than XYZ. However, it could cause lots of problems, because a B at Duke may not at all be the same as a B at XYZ, particularly with grade inflation.
I am doing a pretty good job of arguing myself out of this, aren't I?

[jaimedun34]

I'm almost positive Nelson is a cultural anthropology major.

[ACC Expat]

I agree about GPA for current students, but I bet it is possible to get GPA for graduated students -- it is on their transcript, and that is probably not that hard to get your hands on. At a minimum, Duke employees can get that info, and then (if personal intrusion is an issue) it could be published by sport for, say, all graduates of the last few classes. Then continue every year with a moving average. Over time, the results could be quite interesting. It may be more trouble than it is worth, however.
The point of all is to show whether Duke actually has better student-athletes than XYZ. However, it could cause lots of problems, because a B at Duke may not at all be the same as a B at XYZ, particularly with grade inflation.
I am doing a pretty good job of arguing myself out of this, aren't I?

If Duke decided to even think about publishing such statistics (ETA: They may already do this, right?), I would hope that they would have the good sense to publish team GPAs or general student-athlete GPAs (I know my current institution does this) ONLY. As you suggest, that could provide some interesting information, but, as you recognize, it would still be open to questions about difficulties of majors, grade inflation, etc.

I think that the fact that those question exist AND the privacy concerns are two good reasons not to even think about this data on an individual level (I like allenmurray's conclusion: "Knowing that [DeMarcus] is enrolled in a course of study and is academically eligible is all the public should be entitled to."). If this sort of thing were to be pursued at the individual level it would, in my opinion, smack of transforming the GPA of another person with a right to privacy and no specific obligations to "the fans" into a curio to put on display to allow those same fans to lay claims to "superiority" by association (hi, I'm Quotin' Expat). Someone's individual GPA and class performance is a matter to be kept private unless that individual wishes to grant access to his or her records.

Of course, I don't think there is a serious expectation that such a thing will happen, but I just got out of lecture and I'm still letting off the steam from my class's discussion. :D

[throatybeard]

That cuts a little too close to the bone. I believe that even as public figures college athletes are entitled to some privacy. To show overall GPA/SAT/Graduation rates for a school is informative. Even for a team may be okay. But to show individual numbers by athlete is an invasion of privacy. I have no need to know whether DeMarcus got a C or a B in his most recent Chemistry course, nor do I have any right even to know if this is on his course load. Knowing that he is enrolled in a course of study and is academically eligible is all the public should be entitled to.

Not only that, but it would be against FERPA for the Universities to release that info.

Every time I log into our system at UMSL, I have to click yes on an agreement that I won't share any student info with anybody.

[Zeke]

Most GPA's that I have seen are for all athletes - including the golf team, swimming team etc. etc. It would be interesting to see the GPA for the individual teams. Maybe even for the starting players (as a group). The privacy acts can - and are - used to cover up things that are not favorable. I am old enough to remember when the BB team use to have starting players that majored in Physics, Math and the like. No longer - JJ's major in history is the best that I've see recently.

[mgtr]

OKL, Zeke, you are really making my point better than I was able to. What if we see GPAs team by team? I taught at a former D2 school, now D1, and I know the GPA of the MBB team was a whole lot lower than the golf team or the WVB team. About the only team who was lower was the BB team, whose players were only there until they were (imminently) drafted by the majors. Right - rarely happened.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

and could offer unlimited scholarships to all athletes, above and beyond the 85 football scholly's allowed now? Far fetched? Maybe not! It may be forced upon us.
Read this!
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB119638609639708891.html

If Harvard and Yale could do it, so could Duke!

[Lavabe]

and could offer unlimited scholarships to all athletes, above and beyond the 85 football scholly's allowed now? Far fetched? Maybe not! It may be forced upon us.
Read this!
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB119638609639708891.html

If Harvard and Yale could do it, so could Duke!

Nice article. Thanks Ozzie.

I wonder what the NCAA will do about this. I don't think they can do anything about it.:cool:

Cheers,
Lavabe

[dukie8]

it's a sad state of affairs when academic "excellence" is measured by graduation rates. everyone on the team may be majoring in phys ed and getting gentlemen's Cs, but as long as everyone (or nearly everyone) graduates, then the school is looked at as really focusing on academics. with 5 years (including summers) to complete 4 years of work, a reduced work load almost the entire time, tudors galore, zero financial concerns and first dibs on all the gut classes, athletic teams should graduate nearly everyone. the teams under 50% should face severe sanctions.

[cspan37421]

Dukie8, I share some of your concern about whether there are ways at Duke that are a bit too easy - such as classes that have a lot of papers (which can be ghost-written) and majors that seem to attract a disproportionate share of athletes (sociology was curiously popular when I was there).

On the other hand, it is amazing to me that these guys (and gals) have energy enough for anything after the intense physical practices, games, and travel, that they must go through. If they all took a 3/4ths load and made up for it in summers, I'm totally fine with it - and still impressed. College is for college students, I agree, but I don't know that I could do what they do, even with the talent. As long as the work they do is theirs, and the classes and requirements are legit, I don't care how many tutors they have or whether it takes them summers or even an extra year. I know some non-athletes that took 5 years. That someone like JWill finished in 3 is mind-blowing to me.

[dukie8]

Dukie8, I share some of your concern about whether there are ways at Duke that are a bit too easy - such as classes that have a lot of papers (which can be ghost-written) and majors that seem to attract a disproportionate share of athletes (sociology was curiously popular when I was there).

On the other hand, it is amazing to me that these guys (and gals) have energy enough for anything after the intense physical practices, games, and travel, that they must go through. If they all took a 3/4ths load and made up for it in summers, I'm totally fine with it - and still impressed. College is for college students, I agree, but I don't know that I could do what they do, even with the talent. As long as the work they do is theirs, and the classes and requirements are legit, I don't care how many tutors they have or whether it takes them summers or even an extra year. I know some non-athletes that took 5 years. That someone like JWill finished in 3 is mind-blowing to me.

i wasn't referring to duke -- duke is at the apex of academics as applied to athletics. i was more expressing my disgust that excellence in academics for athletes generally is measured by graduation rates, which, to me, isn't exactly impressive. the schools that don't graduate nearly every athlete are disgraceful.

with respect to be being blown away by duke basketball players passing classes and being on the team, you shouldn't be. what they accomplish is what most other athletes at duke accomplish in anonymity. moreover, many athletes put in a lot more time than the basketball players and do it year round (i don't consider pick-up games in card gym in april and may year round). swimmers put in the most hours week in and week out and runners train and compete year round. moreover, most of the other sports don't have the luxuries that the basketball players have -- they are traveling in vans for many hours (not chartered flights) and don't take summer classes.

what jwill did is impressive vis-a-vis what your typical d1 basketball player does (or doesn't) do in the classroom but it wasn't like he was taking 5 or 6 classes a semester to graduate in 3 years. he had 3 full summers to pile up classes, which usually are much easier than classes held when the rest of the school is in session and which more than equals an entire academic year. i'm not knocking him, because it is such a rare accomplishment, but in the big picture, it really shouldn't be that big of a deal and should happen much more frequently.

[throatybeard]

tudors galore

http://christchurchwalshaw.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/henryviii.jpg

[dukie8]

http://christchurchwalshaw.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/henryviii.jpg

very funny and how embarrassing.

[Lavabe]

he had 3 full summers to pile up classes, which usually are much easier than classes held when the rest of the school is in session and which more than equals an entire academic year. i'm not knocking him, because it is such a rare accomplishment, but in the big picture, it really shouldn't be that big of a deal and should happen much more frequently.

Point of clarification: I doubt that summer courses are easier than during the rest of the year. Course selection is usually limited, and that may cut down on the kinds of courses that get taught. You're not going to find as many of the upper level courses, given their smaller enrollment. In that respect, sure, it's easier to take an intro than an advanced class.

On the other hand, courses like a Calculus series, Orgo series, basic intro and core classes in other departments stay pretty close to form throughout the year (at least where I am, they are). My premed advisees (I'm in a DIII school) often remark about taking intense daily orgo in the summer, vs. the normal orgo during the school year. Upper level and core courses offered in the summer maintain their rigor. It seems that that summer classes can be much more intense than during the normal school year.

Many of my advisees take summer courses to get done with general education requirements, or to move on with department requirements so that they can take advantage of study abroad options, or so they can graduate early (or on time). It's not as though summer students are any less intense.

Just what percentage of Duke students take classes during the summer at some point in their academic career?

Otherwise, I agree completely with the comments about the wonderment about JWill. I've never met him, but in all respects, he seems like an incredibly gifted individual.

Yeah, and that one time he had in Maryland makes me smile.:D

Cheers,
Lavabe

[merry]

I am old enough to remember when the BB team use to have starting players that majored in Physics, Math and the like. No longer - JJ's major in history is the best that I've see recently.

Trajan was a math major I think. Not sure if there've been any other science/math type majors among the starters on the men's BB team since then, but there have been for the women.

[dukie8]

Point of clarification: I doubt that summer courses are easier than during the rest of the year. Course selection is usually limited, and that may cut down on the kinds of courses that get taught. You're not going to find as many of the upper level courses, given their smaller enrollment. In that respect, sure, it's easier to take an intro than an advanced class.

On the other hand, courses like a Calculus series, Orgo series, basic intro and core classes in other departments stay pretty close to form throughout the year (at least where I am, they are). My premed advisees (I'm in a DIII school) often remark about taking intense daily orgo in the summer, vs. the normal orgo during the school year. Upper level and core courses offered in the summer maintain their rigor. It seems that that summer classes can be much more intense than during the normal school year.

Many of my advisees take summer courses to get done with general education requirements, or to move on with department requirements so that they can take advantage of study abroad options, or so they can graduate early (or on time). It's not as though summer students are any less intense.

Just what percentage of Duke students take classes during the summer at some point in their academic career?

Otherwise, I agree completely with the comments about the wonderment about JWill. I've never met him, but in all respects, he seems like an incredibly gifted individual.

Yeah, and that one time he had in Maryland makes me smile.:D

Cheers,
Lavabe

most undergrads don't take summer classes. i wasn't saying that a class that is offered both in the summer and during the normal school year will be different depending on when you take it. however, the quality of the students in the summer class is going to be much lower. how many students graduating phi beta kappa are taking summer classes? it therefore is a lot easier to get better grades in summer classes.

[devil_in_NL]

Trajan was a math major I think. Not sure if there've been any other science/math type majors among the starters on the men's BB team since then, but there have been for the women.

Horvath doubled in Physics and English, I believe, but I'm not sure he was ever a regular starter.

[Lavabe]

most undergrads don't take summer classes. i wasn't saying that a class that is offered both in the summer and during the normal school year will be different depending on when you take it. however, the quality of the students in the summer class is going to be much lower. how many students graduating phi beta kappa are taking summer classes? it therefore is a lot easier to get better grades in summer classes.

I understand your points, but I'm afraid I disagree that the quality of the student is going to be lower. Again, I see many students taking summer classes to advance more quickly, to cope with university/department requirements/offerings, to manage their schedules while coping with pre-professional demands (pre-med, pre-vet, etc...), and to get courses in to qualify for special study abroad/fellowship programs. And frankly, 6 of the last 7 Phi Beta Kappa students I have advised all took summer courses.

Cheers,
Lavabe

[dukie8]

I understand your points, but I'm afraid I disagree that the quality of the student is going to be lower. Again, I see many students taking summer classes to advance more quickly, to cope with university/department requirements/offerings, to manage their schedules while coping with pre-professional demands (pre-med, pre-vet, etc...), and to get courses in to qualify for special study abroad/fellowship programs. And frankly, 6 of the last 7 Phi Beta Kappa students I have advised all took summer courses.

Cheers,
Lavabe

i thought you live in georgia? are you referring to duke PBK students because duke students generally hightail it out of durham in the summer? i don't recall any regular students taking summer classes when i was there. i know that some do but the overall quality of students in the summer classes was a big step down. think about it, if you have a class of 20 students and half of them are football and basketball players, how hard is it to get a good grade in it?

[Indoor66]

i thought you live in georgia? are you referring to duke PBK students because duke students generally hightail it out of durham in the summer? i don't recall any regular students taking summer classes when i was there. i know that some do but the overall quality of students in the summer classes was a big step down. think about it, if you have a class of 20 students and half of them are football and basketball players, how hard is it to get a good grade in it?

That is rather disgustingly elitist.

[formerdukeathlete]

i wasn't referring to duke -- duke is at the apex of academics as applied to athletics. i was more expressing my disgust that excellence in academics for athletes generally is measured by graduation rates, which, to me, isn't exactly impressive. the schools that don't graduate nearly every athlete are disgraceful.

with respect to be being blown away by duke basketball players passing classes and being on the team, you shouldn't be. what they accomplish is what most other athletes at duke accomplish in anonymity. moreover, many athletes put in a lot more time than the basketball players and do it year round (i don't consider pick-up games in card gym in april and may year round). swimmers put in the most hours week in and week out and runners train and compete year round. moreover, most of the other sports don't have the luxuries that the basketball players have -- they are traveling in vans for many hours (not chartered flights) and don't take summer classes.

what jwill did is impressive vis-a-vis what your typical d1 basketball player does (or doesn't) do in the classroom but it wasn't like he was taking 5 or 6 classes a semester to graduate in 3 years. he had 3 full summers to pile up classes, which usually are much easier than classes held when the rest of the school is in session and which more than equals an entire academic year. i'm not knocking him, because it is such a rare accomplishment, but in the big picture, it really shouldn't be that big of a deal and should happen much more frequently.

and pretty much spot on in the above.

football playes and basketball players have it a bit easier than other athletes with (in the past anyway) full access to tutors, summer school, throw training table in there, and whatever.

but out football players and basketball players work more at school (and have to do so) than many other schools with which we compete.

Here is where a Paul Johnson comes in I think - we go after smarter kids. Johnson sits in the living room with the kid and parents and says: "I assure you mr. and mrs. smith that your son will work like heck at Duke. He is going to practice harder, get stronger, put in more time in the library than you can imagine. And, if he slips up, and skips class, I will boot him off the team. As long as I am convinced he is doing everything in his power to develop as a football player he will keep his scholarship. And when he graduates, he will have good grades and interview for good jobs or go to graduate school, and Duke will help a bit in the admissions process there. I am not interested in just having someone graduate. I want them to excell."

This is basically Johnson's shtik right now, but throw in a military service commitment.

What a difference from when Roof met with Lewis and asked "How are the ladies treating you?"

Johnson's kids will have immense social opportunities as alpha males making it happen, getting prepared to excell in life after football. Paul knows this already from his Naval Academy kids. No need to ask.

[dukie8]

That is rather disgustingly elitist.

and painfully true. please remove your head from the sand if you have a problem with it.

[throatybeard]

I remember Summer I having an enrollment of about 500 when I was there taking intensive Greek 1-2. That's around 8% of the total Ugrad enrollment. And that doesn't include study-abroad programs that occur in the summer sessions.

I knew several people, non athletes, who finished in three years so as to save their parents exorbitant tuition in that 4th year.

[merry]

I remember Summer I having an enrollment of about 500 when I was there taking intensive Greek 1-2. That's around 8% of the total Ugrad enrollment. And that doesn't include study-abroad programs that occur in the summer sessions.

I knew several people, non athletes, who finished in three years so as to save their parents exorbitant tuition in that 4th year.

I finished in three and a half for that reason.

I did one summer at Beaufort, which I guess isn't exactly the same thing as the kind of summer school we're talking about here.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Horvath doubled in Physics and English, I believe, but I'm not sure he was ever a regular starter.

Nick was irregular in more ways than one ;)

Just kidding. Nick was a very serious student. I talked with him briefly during his injury red shirt year and he said he planned to stay for 5 years and take some graduate level courses. He was, and is, a credit to Duke University.

[Lavabe]

i thought you live in georgia? are you referring to duke PBK students because duke students generally hightail it out of durham in the summer? i don't recall any regular students taking summer classes when i was there. i know that some do but the overall quality of students in the summer classes was a big step down. think about it, if you have a class of 20 students and half of them are football and basketball players, how hard is it to get a good grade in it?

I was talking about where I am. I could swear that I saw an article in Chronicle of Higher Ed mentioning a national trend similar to what throaty just mentioned ... a lot of students today are taking summer school to get ahead in the process, and to cut down cost.

Cheers,
Lavabe

[devildeac]

I think it is a number of factors. Cost, no summer job or only part-time work available, smaller classes, graduate early, complete a double major(or more!), a shade easier(?). I graduated in 3 1/2 years with a couple summer sessions(1 course each session), and 5 courses for each of 2 semesters and saved about $1250 in tuition costs by finishing 1 semester early. Plus, I was able to work those extra 4-5 months and make a few Franklins. Guess my year of graduation:D . OZZIE is not allowed to have a guess(hint). OTOH, my son studied abroad for 2 summer sessions at a cost of $5K or $6K total for the 8 weeks, had some AP credits, took several 1/4 or 1/2 credit courses during his stay and had an extra P/F course or two and graduated in 4 years, costing us the extra 5-6K instead of saving us about 15K in tuition:eek: . Lots of variables. Good discussion here.

[mgtr]

When I started teaching in 1984 (not at Duke), there were some, but not a lot of students, who wanted to go to summer school. Therefore the teaching slots were rationed. When I retired in 2001, there were plenty of summer teaching jobs, and adjuncts were even used. I never actually taught in the summer, but according to the students I advised, there were three reasons: 1) It was good to take a really tough course in SS, because you could focus most of your energy on it with fewer diversions, 2) economics (early graduation), and 3) SS courses were sometimes a little easier.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I graduated in 3 1/2 years with a couple summer sessions(1 course each session), and 5 courses for each of 2 semesters and saved about $1250 in tuition costs by finishing 1 semester early.

I didn't know you graduated from Appalachian State in 2002! That ($1,250.) is what it cost there for a semester, including tuition, book rental and student activity fees in the 2001-2002 school year.

[devildeac]

I didn't know you graduated from Appalachian State in 2002! That ($1,250.) is what it cost there for a semester, including tuition, book rental and student activity fees in the 2001-2002 school year.

Awww, c'mon OZZIE, you know I graduated from Duke in 19xx:) . The $2500 or so for annual tuition then was still quite a chunk of change, though somewhat of a bargain now compared to $34,xxx for annual tuition for the current students. I talked to one our friends recently who graduated from NCSU that year and his tuition was $600 for the year. Yikes.

[Indoor66]

Awww, c'mon OZZIE, you know I graduated from Duke in 19xx:) . The $2500 or so for annual tuition then was still quite a chunk of change, though somewhat of a bargain now compared to $34,xxx for annual tuition for the current students. I talked to one our friends recently who graduated from NCSU that year and his tuition was $600 for the year. Yikes.

When I went to Duke law the tuition was $775 per semester.

[devildeac]

When I went to Duke law the tuition was $775 per semester.

Might that have something to do with the '66' part of your name;)