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VaDukie
11-27-2007, 04:57 PM
The front paged Jacob's article is, to put it bluntly, stupid. If I hear one more person suggest that we should drop down to I-AA and accept defeat, I'm going to rip my hair out. Any notion that we would drop out of the ACC is maddening to me - Duke is the ACC. Even if they let us stay in for other sports (I can't help but find this incredibly unlikely), I see no virtue in admitting defeat.

Big name programs are not destined to hold continued success. Nebraska has fallen. FSU has been downright mediocre lately. Miami very much the same. And Notre Dame has fallen to depths previously unimaginable.

As a Virginian, I know that before Welsh arrived at UVA and Beamer at Tech, they had miserable programs. The answer to success is not hoping we find a savior coach (although it would certainly help); we must also upgrade facilities. And no, an electronic scoreboard and air conditioned sports medicine facility is not even worth mentioning as substantial facilities.
The K center for excellence will help, but we need to do something about Wade.

I remember going to Duke games when I was 6 or 7, and my Dad laughing at how the bathrooms haven't changed from when he went to games as a student 20 years earlier. Now 15 years later, I laugh that they haven't changed since I was a kid. Games have never been won or lost in the bathroom, but its indicative of the lack of support for the football team that needs to change.

I for one am torn about Roof's firing. I see good reasons for it (6-45 is 6-45), and against it (improved competitiveness, establishment of redshirt program, etc.). Now that the decision is made, I hope we go out and get a coach worthy of replacing Roof. The developments in the days and weeks to come will be very interesting.

In summary, calling it 'insanity' that we can compete in football is the real insanity.

OldPhiKap
11-27-2007, 05:03 PM
I thought Jacob was right on for large parts. I took the suggestion of dropping to 1-AA to be more along the lines of: get your stuff together or step down. I am tired of being one of THE WORST teams in the nation year in and year out. This is not the fault of the players and, as Jacob states, we can't lay this all at the feet of the revolving door of coaches we have had the last 40 years. This administation either needs to get serious about this program, or drop it down to where it is competitive. This has got to end one way or the other.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-27-2007, 05:34 PM
Just a quick post guys before I prepare for my pilgrimage to Cameron this evening. Jacobs is on the money as to where the responsibility for the long downward trend belongs.... Most of you weren't around when the lack of support for football became fashionable at Duke back in the sixties. It's been the standard ever since. Caulton Tudor asked a few days ago whether anyone at Duke even cares about football. It's time to quit treating the football coaches and the players like they are disposable units.

Gotta run! I'll wave to you when the cameraman spots me!
GO DUKE!!!!!

freshmanjs
11-27-2007, 05:43 PM
Jacobs says that hiring a good coach, upgrading facilities, and spending money is not the recipe for turning around the football program.

Ok, then how else would he suggest to turn a program around? I don't think there are any other levers to pull. His suggestion to just give up is absurd.

JasonEvans
11-27-2007, 06:11 PM
The thing I got from that article more than anything else is that Barry Jacob really, really does not like Joe Alleva.

--Jason "dropping down to 1-AA is foolish-- but another decade like the last one in football and we may be forced to consider it" Evans

1Devil
11-27-2007, 06:27 PM
The thing I got from that article more than anything else is that Barry Jacob really, really does not like Joe Alleva.

--Jason "dropping down to 1-AA is foolish-- but another decade like the last one in football and we may be forced to consider it" Evans

I doubt Alleva can get fired without the OK of a certain someone.

CameronBlue
11-27-2007, 07:12 PM
is not either "insanity" or "foolish" as described in this thread. It's a logical alternative and a sensible one for Duke but it's not the only option. It's just the option that most Duke football fans aren't willing to consider. There's no precedent here. Whether or not the ACC would grant Duke an exemption from the rules defining full member status is completely speculative so each side of the debate assumes an outcome that buttresses their argument. A betting man however would wager that the money-obsessed ACC will never risk losing a program of Duke's stature.

I don't think that Jacobs' plea for sanity hinges on a move to I-AA. IMHO Jacobs is intimating that a "uniqueness" surrounds Duke football which demands greater foresight and innovative thinking than Alleva has demonstrated. I think he decries a booster mentality which is slowling taking hold at Duke University and I think that it galls him no end that Duke is sliding, ever so slightly, toward the Florida States, Oklahomas and Alabamas of the world; making impulsive decisions at booster club knife-point. I think he looks at UNC and thinks, "there but for the grace of God, goes Duke."

mgtr
11-27-2007, 07:29 PM
Some folks on this forum have suggested that Duke and Stanford are in roughly the same academic boat. However, over the past 10-20 years, Stanford has had some good (even very good) football teams. I know they are only 3-8 so far this year (though if they beat Cal, they will consider it a winning season). I am pretty sure that Stanford doesn't want to give up on football after a losing season, or even several losing seasons.
I know absolutely zero about the Duke football problem, but, applying a business solution, the problem is always (always) a management problem. I don't know exactly where the management problem is, but, at a minimum, the University president should be involved in addressing this problem. The president needs to hold everybodys feet to the fire.
As stated above, I am writing based on business experience, not on any specific knowledge of the Duke football situation. But, I bet I am right.

Zeke
11-27-2007, 07:59 PM
The Carl Franks interview that accompanies Jacobs article, I think, spells out the problem. The university has to decide if they will accept marginally academically acceptable players for the football team or not. If not then, I think, they should get out of the ACC. Without much better players and much more depth they will not be able to play competitively against FSU, MU, BC, VaT or the recently whored UNC. I, for one,hope that they will drop out of the ACC and keep their academic integrity. The ACC has made it's choice and, although Duke was one of the original ACC members, they have moved away from Duke and it's standards.
Yes, WW stadium can use some changes but as Franks says that will not affect the team, they have good facilities for weight room etc. etc. The problem is not enough NFL potential players.
Coach Roof did the really well with what he had to work with, but it was just not enough. It's a lot different putting together a team that comprises close to 100 people (I'm thinking of major college football - Duke may well be a lot less) than a basketball team of 12-15 people and 10 coaches etc.

homebre
11-27-2007, 08:36 PM
The ACC is a mess. I went to school at Duke in the late 60's and early 70's, and have followed Duke since. The destruction of the rivalries and the tremendous salaries paid coaches is getting to be a disgrace. You have a coach that wins 4 games in football and he gets a big raise at Chapel Hill. You have a coach like Ted Roof who has improved the program (though slowly), has great team support, and upheld Duke's academic tradition, and he gets fired. It is much easier to build a basketball dynasty than a football one. To build a football dynasty, the school has to prostitute itself for big donors, extravagant facilities, and lower academic standards. Look at the passion behind the Army-Navy game no matter what their records are. This has been destroyed in the ACC. I for one would love to see real rivalries among smaller schools with academic standards and integrity. I respect the program Ted Roof was developing, and I only hope the integrity, scholarship, and enthusiasm will remain.
Andy from Hillsborough

Capn Poptart
11-27-2007, 08:38 PM
Jacobs creates a false argument. He's saying that if we stay in D-1A football, we can either sell out or accept being awful.

Bunk.

No one expects Duke to be a BCS contender. But do we have to be 1-11 every year? Is there no middle ground? Some 6-5 records, an occasional 7-4? I think all we're asking for is a program that makes going to the games fun, an entertaining part of the Duke experience, with an occasional surprise.

That's it. That's all we want. There's no reason why, with a good coach, nice facilities and some work, we can't be better than terrible.

If you can find Featherston's piece online from a few years ago about how Duke football ended up where it is, I recommend it. If not, I hope he'll repost it, or I can post it here if it's okay with him. His column makes it easy to see that it was not preordained that Duke football be miserable. Yes, the game changed, and Duke will always have major challenges. But more than that, it was very specific lamebrained decisions (mostly coaching hires) on the part of Duke ADs and administrators which started digging the hole in the late 60's and then kept digging.

We don't want much. We don't want to plow under academic standards or close the engineering school to put money toward football.

We just want not to suck.

77devil
11-27-2007, 11:48 PM
The thing I got from that article more than anything else is that Barry Jacob really, really does not like Joe Alleva. --

What's to like?

killerleft
11-28-2007, 12:14 AM
I'm with Coach K. You don't have to be the best, but you DO have to try to be the best. I'm not even sure what Barry Jacobs was trying to say.

The reality is that Duke is part of big-time athletics.

Why try to be mediocre? Duke has had 40 years of that already, at best. With all the money saved up from not supporting a winning football program all this time, Duke could fund a new entry into the NFL. Take a tiny portion of that and pay somebody the dough it takes to show recruits, alumni, and fans that Duke really means business.

Dropping out of the ACC will not happen. Barry knows this. I know this. Everybody knows this.

Duke does not have to be bad. If other programs can compete with high academic standards, so can Duke. We can do things the right way and still win.

Barry didn't really contribute anything that could lead to a solution for Duke football. Sounds like he's been channeling John Feinstein. I've always been a fan of Barry Jacobs and miss his great ACC Basketball preseason guide. I bought his recent book on the ACC and was lucky enough to have him sign it.

I think he should stick to basketball and politics.

VaDukie
11-28-2007, 12:19 AM
Here's my one things when the academic part comes in: If guys are going to class and they are graduating, I have no problem accepting guys with less than stellar high school credentials.

Duvall
11-28-2007, 01:00 AM
What's to like?

http://www.morris.umn.edu/recreation/Images/Sports%20pics/racquetball.jpg

NYC Duke Fan
11-28-2007, 01:07 AM
The ACC is a mess. I went to school at Duke in the late 60's and early 70's, and have followed Duke since. The destruction of the rivalries and the tremendous salaries paid coaches is getting to be a disgrace. You have a coach that wins 4 games in football and he gets a big raise at Chapel Hill. You have a coach like Ted Roof who has improved the program (though slowly), has great team support, and upheld Duke's academic tradition, and he gets fired. It is much easier to build a basketball dynasty than a football one. To build a football dynasty, the school has to prostitute itself for big donors, extravagant facilities, and lower academic standards. Look at the passion behind the Army-Navy game no matter what their records are. This has been destroyed in the ACC. I for one would love to see real rivalries among smaller schools with academic standards and integrity. I respect the program Ted Roof was developing, and I only hope the integrity, scholarship, and enthusiasm will remain.
Andy from Hillsborough

WE ALREADY PLAY NAVY, VANDERBILT AND NORTHWESTERN, SCHOOLS WITH ACADEMIC STANDARDS AND INTEGRITY. I GUESS YOU WOULD LIKE DUKE TO START PLAYING WILLIAMS, AMHERST, WESLEYAN, TUFTS, MIDDLEBURY,ETC.

homebre
11-28-2007, 08:39 AM
None of those are league games. We palyed one of the toughest schedules in the nation in football.

Andy from Hillsborough

throatybeard
11-28-2007, 09:08 AM
WE ALREADY PLAY NAVY, VANDERBILT AND NORTHWESTERN, SCHOOLS WITH ACADEMIC STANDARDS AND INTEGRITY. I GUESS YOU WOULD LIKE DUKE TO START PLAYING WILLIAMS, AMHERST, WESLEYAN, TUFTS, MIDDLEBURY,ETC.

http://www.arip.co.th/images/news/Download/capslock_killer2.jpg

Indoor66
11-28-2007, 09:10 AM
http://www.arip.co.th/images/news/Download/capslock_killer2.jpg

Ahhhh, my favorite Computer repair tool, except mine is a little bigger.... :mad:

OldPhiKap
11-28-2007, 09:22 AM
Ahhhh, my favorite Computer repair tool, except mine is a little bigger.... :mad:

When you're a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Zeke
11-28-2007, 10:26 AM
Here's my one things when the academic part comes in: If guys are going to class and they are graduating, I have no problem accepting guys with less than stellar high school credentials.
There is a bit more to it than that. 1)Early registration so that players get favorable classes 2) Easy majors 3) tutors that end up doing much of the students work (do any of you remember the "cribbing scandal" of, I think. the early '60s). 4) It's not just "less than stellar credentials" it's 8-10 guys per year that meet the NCAA minimum ACT/SAT scores but can't hack it at Duke without bending the university standards and need major support all the way through.

Thurber Whyte
11-28-2007, 01:26 PM
Why try to be mediocre? Duke has had 40 years of that already, at best. With all the money saved up from not supporting a winning football program all this time, Duke could fund a new entry into the NFL. Take a tiny portion of that and pay somebody the dough it takes to show recruits, alumni, and fans that Duke really means business.

In the early 70's, the Duke community was engaged in essentially the same debate: with a struggling football program, should Duke try to join the Ivy League (perhaps a little presumptuous at the time)? Coincidently, the New York Giants were for sale. At that time, NFL franchises were not worth much and the Giants, a marquis franchise, could be bought for about $5 million, which, even in real dollars, was not too steep. Someone had the great idea of buying the Giants, renaming them the Blue Devils and moving them to Wallace Wade. It would have been the same or cheaper than trying to resurrect the football program and we would have been competitive in the NFL.

Zeke
11-28-2007, 02:54 PM
Someone on this thread asked who would we play. Well try this: Army, Navy, Yale , Harvard, Penn, Ga Southern, Delaware, Tulane, Northwestern - just off the top of my head. Would it be more fun than DU vs FSU or DU vs VT? I think so. Would the players have more fun? I think so. Would attendance suffer? Can't get a whole lot worse. Would DU lose money from TV contracts? You bet. But is that what it has come down to - that TV rules the university?

killerleft
11-28-2007, 02:59 PM
And that, Mr. Whyte, was probably the BEST idea they could come up with. I remember those sorry times well. They had the chance to fix things before the worst of the downfall, and only screwed the program up more. If Alleva and friends want to avoid repeating that kind of mess, they should find some of the minutes of a few of those meetings - what revelations they would see, I'll bet.

Come to think of it, they certainly must have the blueprints somewhere, we've been following the outline for 40 years.

throatybeard
11-28-2007, 05:28 PM
I'd be very cool with us going D1-AA or D2 after Krzyzewski retires. I just don't think sports is that important to the University's mission. Alums would never let it happen though.

Zeke
11-28-2007, 09:22 PM
I'd be very cool with us going D1-AA or D2 after Krzyzewski retires. I just don't think sports is that important to the University's mission. Alums would never let it happen though.

Hail to you Throatybeard. Maybe even before Coach K retires. After all he is a BB coach - not a rocket surgeon and he should not govern the university. It is my understanding that in schools that have downgraded sports, that after the downgrade was accomplished the alums stayed on board including contributions.