Coach K is One Of The Best Coaches

[NYC Duke Fan]

I emphasize ONE of the best, because at one time I considered him to be THE best coach.

Nobody can blame him for Livingston deciding not to come or for Deng being a one and out player, or for Brandon Wright choosing UNC , or for John Brockman choosing to stay home and play.. However, he has to take some of the blame for the team not playing defense for several games now, and the reason rightly stated in other posts as to why Duke has lost.

He has to take some of the blame for the non-developement of Lance Thomas, Brian Zoubek and Marty Pocius.

I know that it might be sacreligeous to criticize Coach K for all that he has accomplished, but sometimes it is OK to state the truth, as long as it is not mean-spirited and I don't think that this post is.

[grossbus]

oh, i think he is still the best. one difficult year doesn't change that. he is not infallible and i never thought he was. this is a very young team with some gaps in the talent profile. they need to mature. they will.

[Jumbo]

He has to take some of the blame for the non-developement of Lance Thomas, Brian Zoubek...

Don't you think that maybe, just maybe, you should wait more than a year to make judgments on a player's development? These two guys are freshmen, for crying out loud. Not all players develop at the same rate. Some of the expectations here are so warped that I feel like vomiting in my mouth, swallowing it, then puking it back up again.

[phaedrus]

maybe we missed out on jon brockman, but at least we got john brockhardt.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=224174

way to go john.

[Matches]

He DID take the blame for the lack of defense over the last several games.

Agreed that Thomas and Zoubek get a bit more than one year before we can say they haven't developed.

[onepresent]

Wow Jumbo, that was a bit harsh.

[mr. synellinden]

I emphasize ONE of the best, because at one time I considered him to be THE best coach.

Nobody can blame him for Livingston deciding not to come or for Deng being a one and out player, or for Brandon Wright choosing UNC , or for John Brockman choosing to stay home and play.. However, he has to take some of the blame for the team not playing defense for several games now, and the reason rightly stated in other posts as to why Duke has lost.

He has to take some of the blame for the non-developement of Lance Thomas, Brian Zoubek and Marty Pocius.

I know that it might be sacreligeous to criticize Coach K for all that he has accomplished, but sometimes it is OK to state the truth, as long as it is not mean-spirited and I don't think that this post is.
I am posing what I think is an interesting question -- if we get Brandan Wright instead of UNC, how much are the respective teams' fortunes reversed. I ask because most people thought we were the favorite to get him last year.

I think with Brandan Wright, Duke is a top 5 team this year (geez, we were for a while there - seems like a long time ago). I think without Brandan Wright UNC might have been looking at a 8-8, 9-7 or even 7-9 season.

[dukelifer]

I emphasize ONE of the best, because at one time I considered him to be THE best coach.

Nobody can blame him for Livingston deciding not to come or for Deng being a one and out player, or for Brandon Wright choosing UNC , or for John Brockman choosing to stay home and play.. However, he has to take some of the blame for the team not playing defense for several games now, and the reason rightly stated in other posts as to why Duke has lost.

He has to take some of the blame for the non-developement of Lance Thomas, Brian Zoubek and Marty Pocius.

I know that it might be sacreligeous to criticize Coach K for all that he has accomplished, but sometimes it is OK to state the truth, as long as it is not mean-spirited and I don't think that this post is.

If anything- yesterday's game showed that SOPHOMORE Marty Pocius is a better player than FRESHMAN Marty Pocius. And there have been several games where his D was pretty good. I expect JUNIOR Marty Pocius to be better. Give K at least another year to develop two freshman.

[DukeDevilDeb]

I totally agree with Jumbo; he is right on this one (though we probably could have done without the vomiting in his mouth sequence.

If you look at any of our very good to great players, the development comes across all four years, never just in one. This is especially true of big men. There have been other Dukies who weren't "developed": Greg Newton comes particularly to my mind. Was that K's fault?

Is Coach K infallible? Absolutely NOT (and I think he would be the first person to agree with that). Is he a great coach? Take a look at his record. And look at that record with the players he's had. We've had a few that have been truly great; Johnny D, Christian, Grant Elton come to mind. But others who stepped up big weren't great players. We don't win the championship (I think in 92) without Marty Clark stroking free throws in the game against Indiana. We don't beat Vegas without Billy McCaffery's shooting. We don't beat UNC in 1998 in Cameron when we were down 19 at the half without playing magnificent D from that point on.

This team doesn't appear to have coalesced. Once in a great while, you'll see someone in college hoops crash into a screen that he didn't see. That has happened a couple of times because our guys are not communicating on defense. Coach K cannot run out on the court and do that for them.

Josh made a thundering dunk near the end of the game, but that wasn't enough to make up for the 2 assist, 5 turnover performance in which he didn't block a single shot despite the many points in the paint.

The coaches can teach and can excite, but they can't play the game. And until the Devils learn that and do play defense as they did against Gonzaga, for example, we're done winning.

[imagepro]

That sounds really sick!

[NYC Duke Fan]

I never said that Coach K was not a great coach...He is !!!

But why can't he be criticized somewhat. When Duke is very successful he gets lauded...when they are not as successful as everyone would like, why is it so terrible to place some blame.

If I remember last year, UNC was suppose to very young, but I challenge anyone to say that Roy did not do an outstanding job with his team.

[Virginian]

It's too early to judge this team. Another year of maturity, strength and experience should make a very big difference.

Think of how many games we lost this year that we were in a position to win. We had a shot at almost every game we lost.

Marquette: we were tied with 7 minutes to play but lost by 10.
Va. Tech: tied with 5 minutes to go, lost in overtime
Ga. Tech: down only 2 with 5 to play, lost by 11.
UVA: up by 8 with 3 to play, lost in overtime.
FSU: down 2 or 3 in last 5 minutes, lost by 1.
UNC: tied with 5 minutes left, lost by 6.
Md.: scratch back from huge deficit to 6 down before losing.
Md. (no. 2): down by 2 with 5 minutes to play, lost by 8.
UNC: all but tied mid-way through the second half, lost by 14.
NCSU: up by 1 with 2 minutes to play, lost in overtime.

With a little more experience we probably would win at least half of those games and this season (and I hope next season) would look very much different.

I hope it's not too Pollyanna-ish to say I think we're on the verge of being a really good team. I don't know if we'll reach that level in the NCAAs, but I'm confident we will next year.

Hope Jumbo's feeling better by then!

[Troublemaker]

I never said that Coach K was not a great coach...He is !!!

But why can't he be criticized somewhat. When Duke is very successful he gets lauded...when they are not as successful as everyone would like, why is it so terrible to place some blame.

If I remember last year, UNC was suppose to very young, but I challenge anyone to say that Roy did not do an outstanding job with his team.

He did, but hell, I think this year's Duke team would've gone 12-4 against last year's ACC as well.

[Jumbo]

I never said that Coach K was not a great coach...He is !!!

But why can't he be criticized somewhat. When Duke is very successful he gets lauded...when they are not as successful as everyone would like, why is it so terrible to place some blame.

If I remember last year, UNC was suppose to very young, but I challenge anyone to say that Roy did not do an outstanding job with his team.

He can be critcized. No one is saying otherwise. The criticism just has to make sense.

[Jumbo]

(though we probably could have done without the vomiting in his mouth sequence.
Sorry, I've been kind of nauseous since lunch.

[NYC Duke Fan]

You think that Coach K deserves no criticism this year. I think otherwise. I think that he has to take some blame for the team not playing good solid defense over the last several games. You even pointed out, and rightly so, that the team lost recently because they did not play defense. You are "preaching to the choir", on that score . I understand that sometimes a coach gets too much credit when his team does well and probably takes too much blame when his team does not. Coach K got tremendous credit when Duke was successful, ( maybe too much), so maybe now he has to take some criticism when the team is not so successful. We just have a difference of opinion. At least we both agree that he is a great coach.

[dyedwab]

You think that Coach K deserves no criticism this year. I think otherwise. I think that he has to take some blame for the team not playing good solid defense over the last several games.

Jumbo can certainly defend himself here, but, having read his comments in this and other threads, he certainly does not believe "that Coach K deserves no criticism." In fact both he and Coach K agree with the criticism of the defense.

His dispute with you is that you "blame" Coach K for the lack of development of Thomas, Zoubek, and Pocius. I agree with Jumbo on that point, that its too soon to place "blame" on anyone for the so-called lack of development on 2 freshman and a sophomore. I think that's a ridiculous charge even some of our best players who became #1 picks in the NBA (Battier, Abdelnaby,

I think there is a legitimate debate to be had on the type of coaching job Coach K has done this year. I think Coack K had a harder time "getting" this team than he has had in a long time. I also think that dismissing the idea that this is very much a transition year in terms of recruiting philosophy.

It strikes me that black and white arguments about blame and who is above criticism are misplaced and counter productive.

One last point, since 1997, the following teams other than Duke have won National Titles: Arizona, Kentucky, UConn, Michigan State, Maryland, Syracuse, UNC, and Florida. Notice anything? With the exception of the last two (and maybe UMD) all have legendary coaches and "down" years. So, who are they gonna blame?

[Jumbo]

You think that Coach K deserves no criticism this year. I think otherwise.
That's blatantly false. I have never said Coach K deserves no criticism. I said it's ridiculous to criticize anyone for some perceived lack of development by Thomas and Zoubek, when some players need more than one season to develop.


I think that he has to take some blame for the team not playing good solid defense over the last several games.
I agree. So does he. What are we arguing about?

[dukie8]

You think that Coach K deserves no criticism this year. I think otherwise. I think that he has to take some blame for the team not playing good solid defense over the last several games. You even pointed out, and rightly so, that the team lost recently because they did not play defense. You are "preaching to the choir", on that score . I understand that sometimes a coach gets too much credit when his team does well and probably takes too much blame when his team does not. Coach K got tremendous credit when Duke was successful, ( maybe too much), so maybe now he has to take some criticism when the team is not so successful. We just have a difference of opinion. At least we both agree that he is a great coach.

the whole olympic team commitment issue has been raised here and is a fair question. i just don't know whether coaching the olympic team and not being around for much of the summer matters. maybe someone who knows more about what a college coach does over the summer could comment. do players usually hang around campus and train over the summer? if they do, does it matter if the coach is around? fwiw, 2 summers ago melch played pick-up all summer long at my gym in nyc so i'm not sure having k in durham would have mattered that much for him.

[VTBaller03]

I still think Coach K is the best out there. Granted, he does deserve some of the blame for the lack of defense. As for developing the players, I think a year of seasoning will help us judge Thomas and Zoubek better.

My question is, do you guys think Coach K has lost a little touch on recruiting? I know we've lost out on some big names in the past, Wright being the most recent example. I heard Wright chose UNC due to their up-tempo style. Granted we have Singler coming in, who's ranked 3rd best in the nation by some sites.

[BluBones]

Grossest thread ever?

[grossbus]

"if they do, does it matter if the coach is around?"

i could be wrong, but i think the coach cannot be around. that would make it a practice and against the rules (as i understand them, anyway).

[Zeke]

Duke's trademark is a very busy defense plus an offense based a lot on cuts by 1-4, post ups by the #5, kicking the ball outside for 3's and break outs when they come up. This style leaves no time for players to catch their breath as they are going 100% all the time. Most teams that play this actively have their players go 100% for 4-7 minutes (and they know this to the minute for each player), come out rest for a bit and then go back in. As has been discussed here many times before, coack K only goes 7 (maybe 8) deep at all - with the starting 5 playing 30+ minutes. I just don't think freshmen can handle playing this way for 30+ games. I think it is not just tired but a fatigue that developes over the season. I believe most of what we are seeing now was inevitable given what they were asked to do.
I think they will definitely get better with Coach K boot camp for 3 years, but I wonder if this year's record wouldn't have been better if the program had adapted to the personel a bit better.
I really feel for the players and hope they get a chance to regroup, work on fundamentals, and have some fun the last few weeks of the season - it has had to have been hard.

[NYC Duke Fan]

I'll give you credence on Thomas and Zoubek. Maybe I over estimated them and what they could do as freshmen. I thought initially that Thomas was close to Brandon Wright in ability..I was wrong .

What about the developement of Pocius ?

[evrdukie]

I'd like to see Coach K focus all of his considerable talents on Duke's basketball team for the foreseeable future. I believe he has too many things going on that don't have anything to do with being Duke's coach. I can understand that, but I'm I'm uneasy about it. In the meantime, no amount of rationalization can avoid the fact that this has been a bad year for Duke basketball. The team was regularly beaten by opponents without a single player Duke would have even recruited. It's probably time to take stock.

[coblue]

People should be reverent, and people should be loyal to their passions.

But these two things are in overabundance on this board and frankly, at TDD as well.

Coach K is an elite coach, but every member of this board has the right to critique his peformance in any area they wish - no matter their ability to do so well.

And every member of this or any other board has the right to do that without having to defer to any other poster of the community. Senior members - and any other member - can have their views of the situation - and of the poster and their views - but a viewpoint is a viewpoint. No one viewpoint HAS to carry more weight or importance.

It is my view that players only get better by playing in games under pressure and applying what they learn in practice. Pocius, Lance, Zoub, will only improve as much as they are allowed to play, fail, and grow in games. This is done in October, November, and December so the errors and mistakes are more absorbable and so less of them are seen when they are needed in the real season. If these guys had gotten much more time in the early months they would be more of the players they can be now. To argue otherwise is to say they are not capable of being good quickly - and I don't believe in limiting kids horizons.

[imagepro]

Hi Zeke- Good thoughts there. The fatigue factor has been widely discussed in all types of media, not only this year, but specifically during the JJ/Shelden era. Of course, it was hyped in 86 and and 99 considerably as well. This is not a "new" issue, as you are well aware. You made good points, and just know you are not alone in your feelings.

[imagepro]

COBLUE- That's PERFECT

What a great post. And it's absolutely true! Unfortunately, others see it as we're the enemy. Too bad, "cause it ain't so"...

Some think practice will make a kid game ready, but as a foermer athlete myself, nothing compares to game pressure. LOTS of people, bright lights, noise, DIFFERENT competiton, different speed, diffferent mental atmosphere,different defenses, different styles, it goes on and on. You cannot similate that in practice. Not being mean, but to people who say you can get it from practice, have you played in front of a lot of people? If you have and you say practice is the same, I can pretty much guarantee you are in a minority.

[imagepro]

Sorry moderators, but I just read this post by COBLUE, and thought it was very well written, and worthy of bringing to the front. I found it inspiring, and is something for everyone to consider, myself included! It is buried deep in another thread, and most people would never see it. I did not paste the last paragraph as he went into how HE felt strategy should be different, so people can read his original post, if they so desire. I just thought this part was worthy of additional viewing. I hope moderators and admin consider it worthy of the move as well. If not, I understand the decision to move/remove it, as it appeared previously. Thanks

[QUOTE=coblue;4861]-----"People should be reverent, and people should be loyal to their passions.

But these two things are in overabundance on this board and frankly, at TDD as well.

Coach K is an elite coach, but every member of this board has the right to critique his peformance in any area they wish - no matter their ability to do so well.

And every member of this or any other board has the right to do that without having to defer to any other poster of the community. Senior members - and any other member - can have their views of the situation - and of the poster and their views - but a viewpoint is a viewpoint. No one viewpoint HAS to carry more weight or importance."

[imagepro]

Sorry moderators, but I just read this post by COBLUE, and thought it was very well written, and worthy of bringing to the front. I found it inspiring, and is something for everyone to consider, myself included! It is buried deep in another thread, and most people would never see it. I did not paste the last paragraph as he went into how HE felt strategy should be different, so people can read his original post, if they so desire. I just thought this part was worthy of additional viewing. I hope moderators and admin consider it worthy of the move as well. If not, I understand the decision to move/remove it, as it appeared previously. Thanks

[quote=coblue;4861]-----"People should be reverent, and people should be loyal to their passions.

But these two things are in overabundance on this board and frankly, at TDD as well.

Coach K is an elite coach, but every member of this board has the right to critique his peformance in any area they wish - no matter their ability to do so well.

And every member of this or any other board has the right to do that without having to defer to any other poster of the community. Senior members - and any other member - can have their views of the situation - and of the poster and their views - but a viewpoint is a viewpoint. No one viewpoint HAS to carry more weight or importance."

[Troublemaker]

Those who critique should expect to be critiqued on their criticism as well. From what I've seen, that's really the problem with you, image. You can dish it but you can't take it. Just my 2 cents.

[Troublemaker]

It's not a good post. It's a strawman unless you can point out to me where posters have been asked to defer to others. Like I said in the other thread, can those who critque accept criticism of their criticism?

[imagepro]

OK trouble. I developed a dislike of Jumbos posts for the very thing you accuse me of, and that's ok. And he knows that. Do I dislike Jumbo, no I do not dislike HIM. I dislike how he has talekd to others. But COBlue makesa good point. I have "agreed" with tyou on many occasions, many. ANd I have disagreed too. The only person I have TROUBLE (no pun intended) with is Jumbo. Yet, CoBlue has made me realize that Jumbo can have his strong opinion, just as I do, and neither carries more merit than the otehr. His post applies to me, not jsut to Jumbo.

Sorry you feel I can't take it, as I have taken it from you on many occasions. I didn't say ZOU can't take it because We disagree. You say I can't take it. I can, and enjoy it. I do. I don't ahe JUMBO, or you because we disagree. I simply disagree with him. I hear your opinion. It doesn't upset me in the least. And I look forward to agreeing, and disagreeing with you. If you don't, well I'm sorry.....

[imagepro]

Ooops- too many typos Trouble- ZOU was supposed to be YOU.. LOL, sorry

[imagepro]

Geez. Man, read the reply I just made to you. I said, it got MY attention too. Sorry you interpret it this way... It is a good post. Yes it is. And it applies to ME, you, and everyone else... A strawman? Please. The guy, or girl, makes a good point. IF you disagree with that, are you saying he is WRONG? That we can't say what we want. And WE means you too Trouble. IF we can't, can you, and Jumbo, but not me or whoever? If his post is not good, then how is it bad?

Because we argue a point doesn't mean we can't take it. Jumbo can take it, I can take it, and I guess you can take it. If someone can't take it, as you say, they would LEAVE. That's what "can't take it" would be. Move the post then. I thought it was worthy of merit, but maybe it's not. Geez

[mapei]

My question is, do you guys think Coach K has lost a little touch on recruiting? I know we've lost out on some big names in the past, Wright being the most recent example. I heard Wright chose UNC due to their up-tempo style. Granted we have Singler coming in, who's ranked 3rd best in the nation by some sites.

I think I know how the people on the board are likely to respond to that, but it sure looks that way, sometimes. Not much, maybe, but enough to make a difference when you're among the contenders.

[dkbaseball]

This year's team has six McDonald's AAs. Only Carolina has as many (also six), perhaps Kansas as well. I can't remember the last time any program had more on the roster. Next year, if Josh stays, we will have nine or ten.

My thinking is a little different from those who say we aren't bringing in enough studs. Maybe we would be better served by, instead of wrapping up recruiting early by perfunctorily signing up the usual quota of McD's AAs, the staff beats the bushes a bit for hungry players who are considered more marginal prospects. Perhaps signing a few more guys in the Spring of their senior years. The quintessential example who comes to mind is Brian Davis -- signed a year after the two AAs. He developed into an integral part of two national champions. A lot of these athlete types tend to blossom late -- think Tyrus Thomas -- and I think we ought to keep our eyes open for them.

[jipops]

Here's the thing- if Markie's layup goes down vs. FSU and Singletary's fall away rainbow prayer manages to rim out at UVa we would have been looking at a 10-6 conference finish. As a result one would see nothing but absolute fawning and worship of Coach K on this board. However, the actual coaching job would be no different than what we've seen - excellent, imaginative and full of adjustments.

Jumbo, you can argue player development until you're blue in the face but most just aren't going to get it. It doesn't matter that Lance has come in with no offensive skills and has simply not managed to become a different player in one year. The concept of a player developing over 4 years is a concept that has long been forgotten. Imagine how many people would have slammed Brian Davis on this board in his first two years? If our guys wore fast food in high school, we keep expecting fast food to come fast.

[dukie8]

here's a question for all to think about that has not been asked yet. what does everything duke's record would have been if some of the other great coaches (eg, knight, calhoun, pitino, donovan or royo) coached duke this year? what would they have done differently? i do NOT know the answer (and neither does anyone else) but it is worth kicking around.

[dukie8]

Here's the thing- if Markie's layup goes down vs. FSU and Singletary's fall away rainbow prayer manages to rim out at UVa we would have been looking at a 10-6 conference finish. As a result one would see nothing but absolute fawning and worship of Coach K on this board. However, the actual coaching job would be no different than what we've seen - excellent, imaginative and full of adjustments.

Jumbo, you can argue player development until you're blue in the face but most just aren't going to get it. It doesn't matter that Lance has come in with no offensive skills and has simply not managed to become a different player in one year. The concept of a player developing over 4 years is a concept that has long been forgotten. Imagine how many people would have slammed Brian Davis on this board in his first two years? If our guys wore fast food in high school, we keep expecting fast food to come fast.

i don't buy that reasoning at all. if bill buckner had been pulled for a defensive replacement in 1986, then the red sox are in the world series. if laettner doesn't hit his miracle shot in 1992, then the 1992 duke team goes down as one of the biggest chokes ever. if that snowboarder girl didn't try and hotdog it going into the finish in the last winter olympics, then she would have had a gold medal. the list goes on but the point is that unless it is the ussr rigging the game against you, woulda, coulda, shoulda doesn't cut it.

[evrdukie]

Hard to argue with Dukie8 on this one.

[calltheobvious]

I'll argue. What 8's response reflects is that there's a lot of randomness, or luck, in sports. Pitino not guarding the inbounds pass does not make K a better coach. Buckner being in the game (and by the way, the game was already tied, only extras would have been guaranteed had the 1B made the play) doesn't make the Mets any better than the Sox in 1986. Similarly with this team, we've lost a lot more close games than we've won, so it's reasonable to say that this team's won-lost record doesn't reflect as much as it did in say, 1999, when we were every bit as good as our 37-2 record (maybe even better).

Contrary to popular opinion, good teams don't make their own luck. Luck, orchance, is what's left over after you're finished controlling stuff.

I believe that it is a fact that there would be a lot less hand-wringing around here if a couple of luck-based situations had gone in our favor, such as the ones against Virginia and Florida State. IMHO, hopping in the Delorian and having Duke win those games would not change much of substance about this team.

[evrdukie]

No doubt about it. If Duke had won some more games everybody would be feeling a lot better. It just doesn't seem very profitable at this point to go down the "what if" road. If Duke had UNC's basketball team and UNC had ours, we'd be likely to win the tournament this year. I don't mean to diss you here; I just don't really see the point.

[dukie8]

I'll argue. What 8's response reflects is that there's a lot of randomness, or luck, in sports. Pitino not guarding the inbounds pass does not make K a better coach. Buckner being in the game (and by the way, the game was already tied, only extras would have been guaranteed had the 1B made the play) doesn't make the Mets any better than the Sox in 1986. Similarly with this team, we've lost a lot more close games than we've won, so it's reasonable to say that this team's won-lost record doesn't reflect as much as it did in say, 1999, when we were every bit as good as our 37-2 record (maybe even better).

Contrary to popular opinion, good teams don't make their own luck. Luck, orchance, is what's left over after you're finished controlling stuff.

I believe that it is a fact that there would be a lot less hand-wringing around here if a couple of luck-based situations had gone in our favor, such as the ones against Virginia and Florida State. IMHO, hopping in the Delorian and having Duke win those games would not change much of substance about this team.

i don't see how mcroberts missing a lay-up late in the uva game just gets chalked up to bad luck. he has been missing those shots all year long and doesn't exactly have a history of hitting game winners (we're not talking laettner here). which game that was tied or that we were losing in the last minute did we even hit a basket? it seemed like every since time we were in a jam late in a game we came up with nothing (i'm not talking about games where we had a big lead that was been whittled down and the other team ran out of time). i don't think that it is at all random that this team's half court offense is very weak and that we do not have anyone who can hit a big basket at the end of a game. compare that to say texas a&m with acie law. it's not luck or random that he can hit big bucket after big bucket all season long.