PDA

View Full Version : Next AD



OldBlue
11-26-2007, 04:23 PM
It's been a long time since I have posted here. I am a regular reader, but only occasionally does something occur that provokes me into writing. Today's press conference is one of those events.

The presser today evidenced a classic failure of management. Hire a guy on the cheap because you are unwilling to make a proper investment, and the new hire is to naive to know on the way in he lacks the tools to succeed. Let him flounder a few years, and then declare him a failure (not a bad guy, just a failure because he couldn't achieve the next to impossible). Then announce you are (finally) going to go after someone who is truly qualified, pay him the going rate (which you didn't come close to paying the last guy), and make all of the additional moves (like upgrading the facilities) that may have permitted the last guy to be successful. You see, it was all the last guy's fault.

WRONG!

Joe Alleva screwed this one up when he hired Franks, and he has driven it into the ground ever since. Now he's going to make everything right. It's not that Duke shouldn't do all the things that Alleva now outlines, but why does he deserve the chance that he was unwilling to give Ted Roof?

So much of what we call management consists in making it difficult for people to work. - Peter Drucker

SilkyJ
11-26-2007, 04:32 PM
It's been a long time since I have posted here. I am a regular reader, but only occasionally does something occur that provokes me into writing. Today's press conference is one of those events.

The presser today evidenced a classic failure of management. Hire a guy on the cheap because you are unwilling to make a proper investment, and the new hire is to naive to know on the way in he lacks the tools to succeed. Let him flounder a few years, and then declare him a failure (not a bad guy, just a failure because he couldn't achieve the next to impossible). Then announce you are (finally) going to go after someone who is truly qualified, pay him the going rate (which you didn't come close to paying the last guy), and make all of the additional moves (like upgrading the facilities) that may have permitted the last guy to be successful. You see, it was all the last guy's fault.

WRONG!

Joe Alleva screwed this one up when he hired Franks, and he has driven it into the ground ever since. Now he's going to make everything right. It's not that Duke shouldn't do all the things that Alleva now outlines, but why does he deserve the chance that he was unwilling to give Ted Roof?

So much of what we call management consists in making it difficult for people to work. - Peter Drucker

your post may get redacted, but I hope not.

where's my favorite handle: "firealleva" when we need him.

RPS
11-26-2007, 04:34 PM
Joe Alleva screwed this one up when he hired Franks, and he has driven it into the ground ever since. Now he's going to make everything right. It's not that Duke shouldn't do all the things that Alleva now outlines, but why does he deserve the chance that he was unwilling to give Ted Roof?

The answer to this question is so obvious it ought to be rhetorical. Sadly, I doubt that it is.

OldPhiKap
11-26-2007, 04:37 PM
Preach it, OldBlue.

Dead on.

VAGentleman05
11-26-2007, 04:43 PM
As I was listening to the press conference this afternoon, I kept thinking that these were the death throes of a Div 1 AD--lots of blaming someone else for failures in the past and promising to do more in the future. Hopefully Alleva will knock the ball out of the park with this hire and everything will work out, but I suspect that the next major presser a few years down the road will be his own departure.

DukeU3x
11-26-2007, 05:38 PM
It's not that Duke shouldn't do all the things that Alleva now outlines, but why does he deserve the chance that he was unwilling to give Ted Roof?


You have reiterated what many tried to convey for years.

I recall the old proverb: It doesn't work to leap a twenty-foot chasm in two ten-foot jumps.

If Duke is going to truly leap the football chasm, then LEAP, DARN IT, DON'T JUMP!

Zeb
11-26-2007, 06:36 PM
"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." - Albert Einstein

Just change "thinking" to "AD".

Unfortunately, while K is there, I don't think Joe is going anywhere.

arnie
11-26-2007, 06:44 PM
I've given up hope regarding my handle - but maybe we will stumble on a great coach this time.

Bluedog
11-26-2007, 07:03 PM
I may be in the minority, but I don't think the Joe Alleva is that terrible. Sure, he isn't perfect and mistakes have been made, but, by and large, the Duke athletic program is stellar. Is that because of Alleva? I have no idea, but he's the director of athletics, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. We have finished 11th, 8th, and 5th in the Director's Cup standings the past three years despite not even fielding a women's softball team and water polo, and giving out no scholarships for swimming and diving, track & field (ok, i know, there are like 4 total scholarships for the 100 or so people), etc. 10% of the undergraduate student body are athletes (a much larger percentage than the vast majority of schools in the top 50), and our student athletes had the highest graduation rate in D1 in the nation.

Also, I think the recent hires for women's b-ball, men's golf, and men's lacrosse have all been very good. Although, admittedly, it's too early to say that for sure. Ya, football, baseball, and wrestling are terrible; but men's and women's basketball, men's and women's tennis, men's and women's soccer, men's and women's cross country, men's and women's lacrosse, women's field hockey, and men's and women's golf are all national title contenders. Why doesn't Alleva get credit for the good when he gets blamed for all the bad?

I'll probably be blasted for having this opinion, but I think it's an opinion that many people hold, they're just not vocal about it. And don't tell me....STEROIDS IN BASEBALL, BOAT INCIDENT, and FOOTBALL, oh my! I know all this, and that hasn't changed my overall opinion. I even thought Alleva was quite nice to Coach Roof in the press conference - he talked about how Roof was a person of great integrity and was a noble guy. Not like he tried to completely destroy his reputation or anything.

Ok, blast away at my argument!

hughgs
11-26-2007, 09:32 PM
Also, I think the recent hires for women's b-ball, men's golf, and men's lacrosse have all been very good. Although, admittedly, it's too early to say that for sure. Ya, football, baseball, and wrestling are terrible; but men's and women's basketball, men's and women's tennis, men's and women's soccer, men's and women's cross country, men's and women's lacrosse, women's field hockey, and men's and women's golf are all national title contenders. Why doesn't Alleva get credit for the good when he gets blamed for all the bad?

For the record, baseball and swimming/diving have hired new coaches within the past couple of years, so those teams should also be on the fence. And I think that the scholarships for track/field and swimming/diving are on the increase. I had heard that the previous swimming/diving coach gave out no scholarships because he thought it was unfair to the whole team. And the coaching staff for the track/field team has increased in recent years which should help them out.

phaedrus
11-26-2007, 11:09 PM
Women's track/field/cross-country has about 10 scholarships and men's has about 1.5 (and I believe the men's scholarships were created somehow by a generous donor, not by the athletic department).

The women's scholarships are enough to remain competitive in cross-country (given that they are granted to distance runners) but not in track and field. The men's scholarships are barely enough to be somewhat competitive in cross-country (some Ivy teams have decent programs, for example) but clearly lacking in track and field.

hughgs
11-26-2007, 11:21 PM
Women's track/field/cross-country has about 10 scholarships and men's has about 1.5 (and I believe the men's scholarships were created somehow by a generous donor, not by the athletic department).

The women's scholarships are enough to remain competitive in cross-country (given that they are granted to distance runners) but not in track and field. The men's scholarships are barely enough to be somewhat competitive in cross-country (some Ivy teams have decent programs, for example) but clearly lacking in track and field.

Well, the cross-country runners are also on the track team, so there is some money being thrown in that direction. But, since sprinters win meets it won't translate very well.

I'm surprised that the men's number is so low. Can you tell me your source? PM me if needed. I have a data point for why I think that's low but I would rather not publicize it, though I'm willing to PM you about it. And if you can't for some reason I understand. Thanks.

Trinity84
11-27-2007, 07:18 AM
I may be in the minority, but I don't think the Joe Alleva is that terrible. Sure, he isn't perfect and mistakes have been made, but, by and large, the Duke athletic program is stellar. Is that because of Alleva? I have no idea, but he's the director of athletics, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. We have finished 11th, 8th, and 5th in the Director's Cup standings the past three years despite not even fielding a women's softball team and water polo, and giving out no scholarships for swimming and diving, track & field (ok, i know, there are like 4 total scholarships for the 100 or so people), etc. 10% of the undergraduate student body are athletes (a much larger percentage than the vast majority of schools in the top 50), and our student athletes had the highest graduation rate in D1 in the nation.

Also, I think the recent hires for women's b-ball, men's golf, and men's lacrosse have all been very good. Although, admittedly, it's too early to say that for sure. Ya, football, baseball, and wrestling are terrible; but men's and women's basketball, men's and women's tennis, men's and women's soccer, men's and women's cross country, men's and women's lacrosse, women's field hockey, and men's and women's golf are all national title contenders. Why doesn't Alleva get credit for the good when he gets blamed for all the bad?

I'll probably be blasted for having this opinion, but I think it's an opinion that many people hold, they're just not vocal about it. And don't tell me....STEROIDS IN BASEBALL, BOAT INCIDENT, and FOOTBALL, oh my! I know all this, and that hasn't changed my overall opinion. I even thought Alleva was quite nice to Coach Roof in the press conference - he talked about how Roof was a person of great integrity and was a noble guy. Not like he tried to completely destroy his reputation or anything.

Ok, blast away at my argument!

I am not going to blast away, but I am not sure that Duke's recent success in the Director's Cup is due to the actions of the current AD. Using GoDuke.com as my resource, it would appear that our more successful coaches - those who have won ACC, and in some cases National, championships - were in postion before the current AD assumed his role; for example, men's basketball, women's lacrosse, men's tennis, women's tennis, men's golf, women's golf, men's soccer, men's lacrosse. We can argue men's lax but what cannot be argued is that Pressler built Duke into a national power. The 2006-07 lacrosse team was more Pressler's than Danowski's.

My two cents.

Indoor66
11-27-2007, 07:52 AM
I am not going to blast away, but I am not sure that Duke's recent success in the Director's Cup is due to the actions of the current AD. Using GoDuke.com as my resource, it would appear that our more successful coaches - those who have won ACC, and in some cases National, championships - were in postion before the current AD assumed his role; for example, men's basketball, women's lacrosse, men's tennis, women's tennis, men's golf, women's golf, men's soccer, men's lacrosse. We can argue men's lax but what cannot be argued is that Pressler built Duke into a national power. The 2006-07 lacrosse team was more Pressler's than Danowski's.

My two cents.

And I assume they would be in position if a new AD came in. If the AD gets all the blame for the bad during his tenure, then the same AD gets credit for the good. Carl Franks and Tom Butters hired their failures in football. More of them than has JA. They hired baseball coaches who did not succeed (including Tom Butters who was BB coach before AD). The coaching hires are hit and miss and JA has a pretty good hit percentage of hits.

Trinity84
11-27-2007, 08:08 AM
And I assume they would be in position if a new AD came in. If the AD gets all the blame for the bad during his tenure, then the same AD gets credit for the good. Carl Franks and Tom Butters hired their failures in football. More of them than has JA. They hired baseball coaches who did not succeed (including Tom Butters who was BB coach before AD). The coaching hires are hit and miss and JA has a pretty good hit percentage of hits.

Indoor:

I assume you meant Carl James rather than Carl Franks. James was the AD prior to Butters. Every football coach since Bill Murray (with the lone exception of Spurrier - a Butters hire, by the way) has left Duke with a losing record. I am not sure that football, on a stand alone basis, should be the standard by which an AD is measured. The point of my post was to try to give broader perspective to measuring the success of an AD and trying to take the focus off of football. On balance, Butters did a terrific job. Were there some errors? Sure. But many of the successful coaches at Duke now were hired by Butters; not Alleva.

Maybe I missed something but where are Alleva's hits? I take it from your post name that you might know something of track & field.

Indoor66
11-27-2007, 08:10 AM
Indoor:

I assume you meant Carl James rather than Carl Franks. James was the AD prior to Butters. Every football coach since Bill Murray (with the lone exception of Spurrier - a Butters hire, by the way) has left Duke with a losing record. I am not sure that football, on a stand

The point of my post was to try to give broader perspective to measuring the success of an AD and trying to take the focus off of football. On balance, Butters did a terrific job. Were there some errors? Sure. But many of the successful coaches at Duke now were hired by Butters; not Alleva.

Maybe I missed something but where are Alleva's hits? I take it from your post name that you might know something of track & field.

Thanks, in the heat of the moment I dissed Carl James and I apologize.

wtpeters
11-27-2007, 08:28 AM
Well, I'm glad to see some discussion about Alleva. He is a mediocre administrator who never should have been hired. He had Coach K's support at the time which seemed to have pushed him in.

He fired Goldsmith who was winning some football games, and brought in Franks who was awful. Roof seems to be a nice guy and a mediocre coach, but he is not a leader.

I think Alleva failed totally in the lacrosse case, offering no support to the athletes, whether they were guilty or innocent. He used the lacrosse coach as a fall guy.

Duke needs and deserves some leaders as AD and as football coach.

formerdukeathlete
11-27-2007, 08:55 AM
Indoor:

I assume you meant Carl James rather than Carl Franks. James was the AD prior to Butters. Every football coach since Bill Murray (with the lone exception of Spurrier - a Butters hire, by the way) has left Duke with a losing record. I am not sure that football, on a stand alone basis, should be the standard by which an AD is measured. The point of my post was to try to give broader perspective to measuring the success of an AD and trying to take the focus off of football. On balance, Butters did a terrific job. Were there some errors? Sure. But many of the successful coaches at Duke now were hired by Butters; not Alleva.

Maybe I missed something but where are Alleva's hits? I take it from your post name that you might know something of track & field.


I watched the press conference and I thought Joe presented himself well.

Assuredly, the decision to find a new head coach involved the input of a fair number of folks. Joe may have even disagreed with the conclusion or at least had reservations about the conclusion. Yet, whether or not this was the case, he had to meet with Roof that day, make financial offers, arrangements, preliminary indicate to the admin and trustees who would be on the search committee, etc.

While our football has languished, the question was always, is there a finanical commitment to take a more proactive approach. With Title IX, tons of department funds go to women's athletic scholarships, and the athletic department gets no financial credits for paying financial aid that the U might otherwise have to pay in the absence of these scholarships. The budget has always been tight, and there has been a reluctance to pay coaches.

Getting rid of Franks also cost the U in the contract buyout, no doubt. And, then things have gotten worse, so why repeat the same mistake (getting rid of someone you know, for someone you dont) twice.

Where Joe might have helped and done more, and this is speculation on my part - counseling the coaches, Franks and Roof regarding issues of assistant coaching turnover, even intervening for cooling off periods. We lost coaches who had offensive flair - remember when Franks fired Bennett. Roof had how many different OC's. Perhaps Alleva could have intervened to talk some players out of leaving the program.

Hiring Roof under the circumstances was not that bad of a decision. (I would have been inclined to give Biddle a shot, however.) Also, hiring Franks might have been fairly well reasoned. Firing Goldsmith I did not agree with at the time. If this was Alleva's call (and not the result of a big push by Nan) than this I find fault with.

A final thought, put K on the selection committee - seriously - we need some of his genius on this one.

Trinity84
11-27-2007, 09:02 AM
As Alleva made clear during the press conference yesterday, he will be leading the search committee. I am not sure I find that comforting.

Anyway, it would be interesting to know the names of the search committee members. Has Alleva tapped into the best resources available? Or, has he surrounded himself with "yes" men? Who will join him on his quest for the Holy Grail (i.e. 4 to 6 win seasons)?

jjasper0729
11-27-2007, 09:04 AM
He didn't name any names. He said that it would be 2 faculty members, 2 former players and 1-2 more athletic administration members.

ehdg
11-27-2007, 03:03 PM
As Alleva made clear during the press conference yesterday, he will be leading the search committee. I am not sure I find that comforting.

Anyway, it would be interesting to know the names of the search committee members. Has Alleva tapped into the best resources available? Or, has he surrounded himself with "yes" men? Who will join him on his quest for the Holy Grail (i.e. 4 to 6 win seasons)?

I don't think Alleva has and or will tap into the best resources. If he wanted to tap into the best resources he'd bring in a consulting firm to help with the search. But he refuses to do this. I also think he's crazy if he thinks a coach will come here just because we are Duke!! Granted we are a very fine school and the Durham area is a great place to live but our football program has been very bad for coaches career's other then Spurrier. It's not like we're looking to bring in a new BBAll coach we're talking football which it seems to me our institution has treated like an orphan for way too long.

This quote from Roof worries me a lot:

If he could, what would he tell the new Duke coach?

"Make sure you get all the facts," Roof said, "and ask the right questions before you walk in the door."

Sure sounds like he was made some promises that were not kept.

SoCalDukeFan
11-27-2007, 03:27 PM
I really do not like the idea of a search committee. If JA is a strong AD he should have had a list in his desk drawer with his top candidates and gone from there. If JA thinks that he can not find the coach himself, then Duke needs a new AD.

It was pretty obvious for some time that this was probably Roof's last year. I find forming a search committee as something that will take up valuable time. I also hope we do not get a compromise choice that makes no one on the committee unhappy.

Roof's words are also very disturbing to me.

SoCal