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OZZIE4DUKE
11-22-2007, 04:34 PM
Now that the DBR has taken the cloak off of the rumors about Ted Roof's future, we can put all our thoughts here.

As I said earlier in the week, I am very optimistic that we will have a new football coach in the next few weeks. I was as big a supporter of Roof as anyone, until about 5 weeks ago when the team started regressing after the off week. Backwards "progress" at this stage is not acceptable. Again, I gave Ted a mulligan on the first bad loss, but 4 more followed and it is time to move on.

I hope that a true, professional search is done, including the names I've heard rumored (Paul Johnson and Marty Schottenheimer), plus the coaches from some of the traditionally black colleges who have been successful, plus others who are interested. I don't care whether the next coach is white, black, or some other color, as long as he has integrity, enthusiasm, extensive knowledge of football as a head coach, preferably from an offensive perspective/background, has a network of successful assistants he can call upon to join him. Please note that Ted Roof had the first two qualities and has maintained them both to this date.

Here's to being bowl eligible next year, and crediting Ted Roof for the foundation he laid in the last 4 years.


BEAT carolina!

Lavabe
11-22-2007, 05:01 PM
I probably agree much with what Ozzie just stated.

I am, however, bothered by the fact that Glenn's "multiple sources" gave information in advance of the game. Roof was supposed to talk with Alleva after the game.

Ozzie: Post quickly, "Nickel Nose." You're on 666 posts!
Lavabe

killerleft
11-22-2007, 05:17 PM
Does Duke already have it's new coach? Kinda sounds like it. Could Lloyd Carr be a candidate?

Alleva and the bunch need to get this one right. We've lost two fine men in Franks and Roof. Roof, especially, gave Duke his all, and worked his tail off.

Get this one right, Duke. The RECRUITS have to recognize our new coach, and he must be a proven winner.

I hear Duke has the money to pay for a proven winner. Do it. My opinion of Roof is so high that, if he couldn't produce a winner at Duke, it is obvious that only a big name with great credentials can be counted on to return Duke to respectability and future success.

Just do it. No more super guys that the recruits don't know from Jack.

Olympic Fan
11-22-2007, 05:25 PM
Nice sign off ...

Before we move on, I want to say that even though Coach Roof may be finished at Duke, I hope he'll be treated in a classy manner by the administration and the fans. He's always represented Duke well -- with the single exception (a big one, I admit) that he couldn't win.

I think he has improved the talent level since he inherited the job from Coach Franks. He just wasn't the man to mold that talent into a team that compete at the ACC level. He's had some real bad luck (Zack Asack flunking out in the summer of 2006 was a killer), but after 6 wins in four and a half years, I admit it's kind of hard to blame his record on "luck". I know he was building for 2008 and if this team had continued to show progress (I think it showed some in the first half of the season), I'd have been his strongest supporter.

I understand, as Dave Glenn reported, that the university has made an extremely comprehensive study of the football program and what it needs to be successful -- including facility upgrades and (even more importantly) academic flexibility. I don't know the details, but those changes are going to be vital to landing a quality replacement. I know two candidates whose names have been mentioned by Duke fans (a current 1-AA head coach and a former 1-A head coach) -- both have told me they wouldn't take the Duke job (for any amount of money) under the current circumstances. Both would be very interested if Duke were to restructure its admissions policy (don't ask me for details of what kind of changes it would take) to give them a chance to be successful.

I don't want to get too much into individual candidates -- there's plenty of that kind of speculation floating around. But let me offer the following generalities:

-- I'd feel a lot more comfortable if somebody like Gene Corrigan or Chuck Neihaus were in charge of the search. Both run consulting firms (Neihaus is the guy to connected UNC with Butch Davis) and their fees are chickenfeed compared to the millions of dollars that will be riding on this choice. And quite frankly, I have no confidence in Joe Alleva's judgement at this point.

-- I'm told by those I trust that money will not be a factor in the hire -- either way. By that, I mean Duke will not commit the kind of eye-popping, can't-turn-down money that some fans want to offer. At the same time, Duke will come up with whatever among of money it takes to hire the man it wants -- even if that's a lot more than Roof is making.

-- I think the hire has to be a head coach at a smaller school. I just saw on one of the football rumor boards that Todd (?) Christensen, the offensive coordinator at Missouri, is a candidate at Duke. Normally, that would be an intriguing candidate -- he's a hot property and will almost certainly get a head job somewhere. But Duke has just bombed on two straight coaches without head coaching experience (and three of the last four). I really don't think Duke can gamble again on a guy who has never run a program.

-- I think the new coach must be willing to run a "different" offensive scheme. All-out passing; option running; Boise State innovative, Urban Meyer style, Texas Tech style, Navy style -- whatever. I just don't believe it's possible to come in here and win running a vanilla pro set (as Ted has done). At least not right away -- maybe if you win enough to recruit well enough to line up with your ACC opponents, then you can dial back the offense. But that won't happen right away.

-- Please, PLEASE don't hire Marty Schoettenheimer. I know he's a big name who would bring some instant credibility, but I also think he would be just about the worst choice Duke could make at this point because:
(a) He's 64 years old (and will turn 65 in September of next season). We could have gotten Bobby Ross last time around at the same age -- based on his performance at Army, that would have been a disaster.
(b) He's never -- ever! -- coached in college, even as an assistant. The college game is different from the pros and he doesn't have time to learn the difference. That's especially true in recruiting -- and he doesn't have a staff of dynamite young recruiters lined up to exploit his name value.
(c) Schoettenheimer's basic philosophy is more conservative than Dick Cheney. The joke is that his playbook is run, run, throw short, punt. His pro teams won by playing great defense and not making mistakes on offense (except his last year at San Diego when all he did was hand the ball to LT ... or throw short to LT). That's great if you have NFL talent, but I don't think Duke does at this point.
(d) I also think Duke needs someone dynamic who can breath life into the program. If you've ever been around Marty, he's not that guy. He's Barry Wilson with a better (pro) resume.

I don't know who the right guy is ... I'd hire Paul Johnson in an instant if he would take the job (but it doesn't sound like he would). Former Duke assistant Craig Bohl is doing a great job at North Dakota State (but he's a defensive guy and I don't know what kind of offense he runs). I've heard Chris Hatcher, the 34-year-old head coach at Georgia Southern, might be interested (he's a passing guy who learned from Hal Mumme). They sound intriguing, but I honestly don't know if either is a great fit ... I just hope Alleva or Corrigan or whoever makes this hire, knows more about it than any of us do.

rockymtn devil
11-22-2007, 05:39 PM
I agree that Duke needs to look for someone with head coaching experience, and should look to Division 1-AA/II if need be. Although such a hire may not make a huge splash, splashes don't necesarily win games. Back in 2000 when Ohio State and John Cooper parted ways, there were lots of big names thrown around for that job (I realize there's a huge difference between Duke football and Ohio State football), but after the dust settled, the Buckeyes went with Jim Tressel, a proven winner at the 1-AA level who has elevated that program to heights not seen since Woody Hayes.

rthomas
11-22-2007, 05:53 PM
The timing of this "leak" is crap. I hope Roof goes out a winner and Carolina remains in Hell.

PS. Don't poach Wannstadt.

flash
11-22-2007, 06:00 PM
Alleva does not need to make the call on the next hire. He has proven that he is inept at football decisions. Broadhead needs to excuse himself from the process also. This is a major important decision and people that know and understand football need to make the call. I would like to see Steve Logan get serious consideration for the job. He did a great job at ECU until he got stuck with a bad AD. The guy is offensive genius with an excellent record at developing great QB's. A program like Duke needs a wide open offensive approach. Put points on the board, win a few games and that will put fans in the seats.

jlear
11-22-2007, 06:03 PM
-- I'd feel a lot more comfortable if somebody like Gene Corrigan or Chuck Neihaus were in charge of the search. Both run consulting firms (Neihaus is the guy to connected UNC with Butch Davis) and their fees are chickenfeed compared to the millions of dollars that will be riding on this choice. And quite frankly, I have no confidence in Joe Alleva's judgement at this point.


I could not agree more.


Maybe the leak was a win one for Roof leak meant to motivate the team. It certainly makes the game more interesting.

throatybeard
11-22-2007, 06:09 PM
"Duke football desperately needs a fresh start," one source said. "There is going to be an entirely new approach to Duke football, and it's going to start very soon. Every aspect of the program, including academic standards, has been studied and is being addressed in an intelligent manner. The end result is going to be what you see in Duke's other sports — a desirable place to coach, a desirable place to play, and a world-class education along the way.

I wish I could believe this, but when Joe Alleva's involved, my skepticism is too strong to overcome.

OZZIE4DUKE
11-22-2007, 06:50 PM
Ozzie: Post quickly, "Nickel Nose." You're on 666 posts!


Actually, I think "666" is a devil of a number! I don't get the "Nickel Nose" reference - can someone please explain? Alas, it is no more with this post.

dukie8
11-22-2007, 07:02 PM
for those of us who could see clearly that roof was not the guy at the end of LAST year, this news is coming a year late. i feel like the program literally wasted an entire year in a season that was entirely predictable. in a lot of ways, we are in worse shape than last year at this time because the nd game was on national tv and kind of let the dirty secret out nationally about what a disarray the program is in. numerous people at work commented to me on monday about how they could not believe that they wasted an hour watching part of the game.

the part that really scares me is that alleva and brodhead will be the 2 guys spearheading the new hire. it's almost like moe and curly are at the helm here and i don't have much confidence that they will get it right. hopefully i will be pleasantly surprised and duke can get back to winning several acc games a year and not be the proverbial doormat anymore.

i'm also not opposed to hiring an older former nfl guy who will be on a 5-year plan. we don't have to delude ourselves into thinking that the next guy will be here for 30 years. hiring a "name" who will be able to restore order and rebuild the program over the next 5 years so it will be a clean hand-off to the next coach isn't the worst thing in the world.

Lavabe
11-22-2007, 07:31 PM
Actually, I think "666" is a devil of a number! I don't get the "Nickel Nose" reference - can someone please explain? Alas, it is no more with this post.

I don't even want to know what "NN" stands for. Very puzzling. I think Devildeac highlighted this in an earlier thread, but I don't recall the response.

The leaking of this story from "sources" is just not right (I'm in agreement with rthomas' choice of words). I hope we're not in a situation in which Glenn & DBR knew this story before the players or Roof were informed directly by the athletic department. Regardless of what one thinks of Roof's coaching, he doesn't deserve leaks to the press.

jlear: We are in serious trouble if the team needs this for motivation against the Holes.

PLEASE let there be a search/consulting committee unaffiliated with the leaks.

I look forward to better "optimistic" days with Duke football, but I am troubled by Glenn's story.

No cheers yet,
Lavabe

YmoBeThere
11-22-2007, 07:41 PM
Nice sign off ...

But Duke has just bombed on two straight coaches without head coaching experience (and three of the last four). I really don't think Duke can gamble again on a guy who has never run a program.


FWIW, in retorospect the 3-8 record Barry Wilson's team put up in his last season as head coach doesn't seem so bad.

-jk
11-22-2007, 07:43 PM
Alleva does not need to make the call on the next hire. He has proven that he is inept at football decisions. Broadhead needs to excuse himself from the process also. This is a major important decision and people that know and understand football need to make the call. I would like to see Steve Logan get serious consideration for the job. He did a great job at ECU until he got stuck with a bad AD. The guy is offensive genius with an excellent record at developing great QB's. A program like Duke needs a wide open offensive approach. Put points on the board, win a few games and that will put fans in the seats.

You think Alleva is an inept AD at managing football and you want a coach you say failed only because he got stuck with a bad AD. I don't quite follow your argument for Logan.

I can see going back to something like Spurrier's fun 'n' gun ball, though. Those teams were a blast!

-jk

YmoBeThere
11-22-2007, 07:43 PM
I don't even want to know what "NN" stands for. Very puzzling. I think Devildeac highlighted this in an earlier thread, but I don't recall the response.


I don't think there ever was a resolution on the meaning of Nickel Nose.

CatfiveCane
11-22-2007, 08:12 PM
Hopefully Larry Coker never enters into the Duke coaching search.

captmojo
11-22-2007, 08:25 PM
Tom Knotts at Charlotte Independence? He has an experience at Duke (though under Roof) and seems to know what it takes to win. Looks like he also has experience dealing with the public.:rolleyes:

Would either side be interested?

wolfpackdevil
11-22-2007, 08:37 PM
Even I have been thinking of coaching changes for Duke Football, But I think that Ted Roof should get 1 More Year!

The team will have one of the best Recievers in the ACC in Eron Riley,
A very good and improoved QB in Thadd Lewis,
A killer Deffensive front with VINCE OGHA..., Kinny Rucker and more

And a 4 STAR Freshman CB in Randez James.

The team has many winnable games with games:

Vs. Northwestern
Vs. Navy
AT Vanderbilt
Vs. James Madison
Vs. UNC

All of those are winnable, they also will play 1 more non-conference game and NC STATE at home.

SO I think that Ted Should get 1 more year and see if we can win at least 3-4 games next year, if not than start the search for the new coach

But he has brought in great players, maybe next year we can win

And I will be there on the 40 yd. line on Saturday and hoe to see the support for Duke and Ted Roof!

wolfpackdevil
11-22-2007, 08:46 PM
sorry about the spelling error

HOPE*

CameronBlue
11-22-2007, 09:19 PM
I could not agree more.


Maybe the leak was a win one for Roof leak meant to motivate the team. It certainly makes the game more interesting.

God I hope not. It would
be a despicable way to treat Roof. The only thing worse than knowing you're coaching your last game is to wonder how many of the fans are more interested in staring at the corpse. Games that feature coaches who are in their death throes aren't interesting, they're spectacles. On to the Coliseum! Let's slay some Christians!

I would like to say Aleva is a jackass, but honestly I don't know the guy. He should have to answer for the timing of this "announcement" and he should apologize to Roof.

jimsumner
11-22-2007, 11:02 PM
The timing just bites. I know that 100 people can keep a secret and it does no good if one person can't. But it still bites.

I really wanted this to work. Roof is a class act and worked very, very hard. Not saying I disagree with the decision.

Part of me wants to make a "WOW" hire, just to show the world that Duke is serious about football this time. But more of me wants to hire a good, solid, up-and-comer-with head-coaching experience. No more assistants. The ACC isn't an entry-level league and I want Duke's next head coach to be someone who has already learned the lessons that need to have been learned before taking over as the head guy at a BCS school.

Patrick Yates
11-22-2007, 11:13 PM
Hosannah in the Highest!!

I knew that Book of Zoroaster would come in handy. Sure the translations were a grinch, and good luck finding a pure white chicken, a black lamb, a sacrificial alter, and sacred knife with just the right curviture (I don't want locusts). But it was completely worth it. Thank you E-Bay.

NEXT PLAY.

As for Speculation, why not Gus Malzahn? He was the HS coach who was brought in to be the O coordinator at Arkansas. Their idiot hole coach ran him off cause Gus wanted to run a shot gun spread type of O. Gus is now at Tulsa where he is orchestrating an O that puts up like 500+ ypg. Arkansas couldn't complete a forward pass with no Defenders on the field.

Also, Major Applewhite at Alabama might be an option. I know both are inexperienced, but both seem to be offensive innovators that will take the chances necessary for Duke to have a chance to win.

I agree with an above poster. We may never get a coach who will be here for 10+ years. At least, not soon. We need a coach who has his eye on a fat prize, and knows that winning 7-9 games at Duke will get you a HC job at a high major. Such a coach would hopefully have an associate HC, or a O or D coordinator ready to step in immediately, as he too looked for a loftier prize.

If we are honest with ourselves, Duke's situation precludes it from being a major power, year in and year out. Our alumni base, though affluent and great, is spread out. The academics are hard, and B-Ball will always be King at Duke. But we can win. At least, we can stop being the longest running joke in college sports (Thank you Cubbies for being the longest running joke in all of sports).

Eventually, we might get a great, long term coach. But it would have to be a graduate of Duke who proves to be a great coach. That scenario is, at best, 1-2 decades away from reality.

Patrick Yates

ps I would like the mods to un-redact some of my alleged (now prescient) "rants" regarding football and Roof's "future". It only seems fair. Also, since I was repeatedly banned for predicting an outcome that actually came to pass, I would like a free pass on say, 2-3 posts where I cannot be penalized (I will not use bad words. Bad thoughts, paranoia, poor reasoning, yes. But no foul language). I am flexible on this and more than willing to work with the mods to redress the injustices visited upon me.

I mean, today is like a Don's Daughter getting married. EVERY THING IS GREAT!

alteran
11-22-2007, 11:22 PM
I don't think there ever was a resolution on the meaning of Nickel Nose.

Obviously, the mods want us to puzzle this out.

"Old Nick" is an old school nickname for the devil.
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/o/old_nick.html

Apparently, the word "Nickel" in German means the devil (http://lvillage.wsfcs.k12.nc.us/lv/hswest/hp.nsf/4109131d7b02105e80256ab7004eac1a/2c22f57cd3c22f0885256f69000657f9?OpenDocument) as well (at least archaically it did). Apparently, nickel was known as "the devil's copper."

I'm not sure where the "nose" part figures in. My best guess is that the most infamous, bulbous, offensive, nay SATANNIC nose in the world was, of course, that of the obnoxious Dean Smith. Bringing about the so-called "nose paradox," whereas the most devilish nose in the world was owned by Dean Smith, the ANTITHESIS of the BlueDEVILS, and ...

Okay, I don't know about the nose part. But I'm pretty solid on the nickel.

alteran
11-22-2007, 11:25 PM
In a more serious vein than my last off-topic post, I am saddened that the Roof era has not worked out well for either Ted Roof or for the Bluedevils.

Ted Roof is a great guy who has worked incredibly hard for Duke and brought in some surprisingly good talent. It's a shame that these qualities alone are not enough.

Here's to hoping that this turns out to be the best thing for Duke and for Ted Roof.

jimsumner
11-22-2007, 11:30 PM
I understand the necessity but for the life of me I can understand why anyone would take pleasure in this.

But then, I've never been much for schadenfreude.

Jarhead
11-22-2007, 11:32 PM
Thanks for setting this up, Ozzie. What has been posted so far is close to how I feel with some exceptions. I do regret that it comes out just before the Carolina game. Does anybody know if the team or coaching staff had been informed before the leaks became public? I also wonder about the accuracy of the story.

As someone else pointed out in another thread, this is a long term problem that started in 1966 with the appointment of Tom Harp. Ted Roof is the ninth coach in the string that started with Harp. Only the ole' ball coach, Steve Spurrier, had a winning record in that string. The last two, Roof and Franks, had the worst two records of any Duke football coach including a period in the 1890s when Duke (Trinity) won 7 and lost 6 games without a coach. You can look it up. (http://www.nationalchamps.net/NCAA/database/duke_database.htm) Of the nine, only Spurrier has been a successful coach. The other eight found new careers, or took up coaching at a lower level. Now it seems that we have to find a new coach. We should pay attention to what is wrong with the way we select coaches. We ain't doing it right. Some of the suggestions so far seem to me to be more of the same. We've been there, done that. Let's do something different now. Let's not settle for anything less than a Spurrier equivalent. Maybe we should go after somebody just like we went after Wallace Wade. That worked out just fine.

A winning record which would make the team bowl eligible seems an achievable goal. That's all I want in the short term. I would have preferred it to happen while Ted Roof was head coach, but I guess that's not going to happen. I hate to see him go.

crote
11-22-2007, 11:34 PM
Sorry to see Coach Roof go, but it does seem like a necessary evil at this point.

Many people have expressed a desire to land an experienced coach with a proven record, and I agree that's the way to go if we can land such a candidate. I just don't see that happening. I think our best bet would be to try and emulate the last time Duke had real, sustained football success: the Spurrier era.

When Duke hired Spurrier way back in '87, we were taking a chance on an energetic, relatively young coach who possessed an innovative offensive philosophy but lacked any college HC experience. Twenty years later, I think we might have a chance to relive history with another talented young coach:

Tulsa Offensive Coordinator Gus Malzahn.

Malzahn has only been an assistant in the college ranks for two years, but he spent over a decade as a high school head coach in Arkansas where he earned an almost legendary reputation. His teams were always in contention, won several state championships, and shattered numerous national offensive records.

After leading his last Springdale High team to an undefeated season and national ranking, Malzahn was hired as Arkansas' OC in 2006. He was an instrumental part in Arkansas' inexplicable run at greatness last year, and it was his creative schemes that helped propel running back Darren McFadden into the national spotlight. (Granted, McFadden is an extraordinary, extraordinary talent, but you need only compare his production between last year and this to see Malzahn's influence.) Through no fault of his own, he was run off by Arkansas' insipid, egomaniacal coach Houston Nutt, and landed last off season at the University of Tulsa, where his offense has put up monster numbers.

Where Spurrier had the Fun and Gun, Malzahn has the Hurry Up No Huddle, a fast paced, wide open attack which he literally wrote the book on. Versatile enough to run (Arkansas 06) or pass (Tulsa 07) out of, it is exactly the kind of complex spread attack that is quickly becoming THE offense in college football (see West Virginia, Oregon, Florida).

In short, Gus Malzahn has the potential to be Steve Spurrier Redux for Duke. He has a great offensive mind, is a charismatic figure and a strong recruiter, and has all the tools to bring Duke to college football's cutting edge. Heck, he'd even be the exact same age going into his first season as Spurrier was going into his.

SoCalDukeFan
11-23-2007, 02:35 AM
I am not sure of the sources for the Dave Glenn story on Roof so it seems silly to me to blame Alleva for the leak. If the Glenn story is accurate then a comprehensive study of Duke football was certainly in order and several people had to be involved and had to be communicating with many others so sources should have been easy for Glenn to find. Timing can be everything in hiring coaches and perhaps Duke is already talking to Roof's replacement so Glenn had another avenue to get sources.

I am not a Joe Alleva fan but his recent hires of the men's lacrosse, women's basketball and men's golf coaches seem like good ones to me. I would have to think that he initiated or had a major part in the review of Duke football, which also seems like a good idea. So I will be optimistic and hope that Duke will make a great hire for its next football coach.

I also think that Roof is a very good guy who seems to have improved the talent level. However it is pretty obvious that his team did not get it done on the field, which is something that I am sure Roof understands.

DukeU3x
11-23-2007, 05:48 AM
I'm certain Ted Roof, Carl Franks, Fred Goldsmith, Red Wilson, Tom Harp, Mike McGee, and Barry Wilson are nice guys. I'm also fairly certain Steve Spurrier, Steve Sloan, Bill Murray, Eddie Cameron, and Wallace Wade are/were nice guys. So if you had to select a "nice guy" to be the Duke football coach, from which group would you make your selection?

My point, the world is full of nice guys, but I'd like us to hire one who is also a successful football coach.

Joe Alleva may be a nice guy, I don't know him; but I'd guess his wife and kids love him and he doesn't kick his dog. Do we have any, any, any evidence that Joe Alleva can hire a successful football coach?

BigDuke6
11-23-2007, 08:20 AM
You think Alleva is an inept AD at managing football and you want a coach you say failed only because he got stuck with a bad AD. I don't quite follow your argument for Logan.

I can see going back to something like Spurrier's fun 'n' gun ball, though. Those teams were a blast!

-jk

I'm not really sure about the argument but his statement about Logan does hold some truth. As a Pirate alumn from the Logan years, he did get run out. The alumni/Pirate Club had the most to do with it. They put pressure on the athletic department to replace Logan. They were upset that Logan wanted to play on Thursday and Friday nights to get national television exposure while the alumni and fans in the area believed that those nights were traditionally high school football nights and would not attend the games. I don't believe ECU has played on those nights since Logan left. I know he had one down year after several bowl teams and from all the pressure he decided to leave.

I think he has the offensive mind to win at Duke, but can we drag him away from BC?

Salty Breezes
11-23-2007, 10:09 AM
Clearly Roof hasn't put up the W-L record we'd hoped, but are we hurting ourselves in the search for new coaches by developing a track record of firing after four years? At least we're not Notre Dame, but I've got to say I'm pretty impressed with the kind of players Roof has been bringing in, and it sucks for him that he won't get to coach them in what is clearly going to be our best season in a long time.

Will these young up-and-comer coaches that we want to hire sign on to a program that: 1) fires coaches fairly quickly, 2) has clear and persistent talent problems, and 3) talks about upgrading the program but hasn't actually done anything yet?

Seems like the department needed to do the heavy lifting part of the upgrade first, and then look for a new coach once the more successful parameters were in place.

I sure hope they know what they're doing.

captmojo
11-23-2007, 10:17 AM
Clearly Roof hasn't put up the W-L record we'd hoped, but are we hurting ourselves in the search for new coaches by developing a track record of firing after four years? At least we're not Notre Dame, but I've got to say I'm pretty impressed with the kind of players Roof has been bringing in, and it sucks for him that he won't get to coach them in what is clearly going to be our best season in a long time.

Will these young up-and-comer coaches that we want to hire sign on to a program that: 1) fires coaches fairly quickly, 2) has clear and persistent talent problems, and 3) talks about upgrading the program but hasn't actually done anything yet?

Seems like the department needed to do the heavy lifting part of the upgrade first, and then look for a new coach once the more successful parameters were in place.

I sure hope they know what they're doing.

The coach with the most dedication will want to be part of an upgrade on all levels. The stepping stone coach won't care about things like stadium enhancements or reconstruction of existing facilities.

I guess that the answer to all the above questions is, yes.

RelativeWays
11-23-2007, 10:57 AM
I'll just say that regardless of Ted Roof's W/L record, I really appreciated his enthusiasm and devotion to one of the more difficult, thankless college football jobs out there. I really hope to see the team succeed with players he recruited so at least he is somewhat vindicated in that respect. I wish him luck and success in whatever he does next.

SoCalDukeFan
11-23-2007, 11:22 AM
My point, the world is full of nice guys, but I'd like us to hire one who is also a successful football coach.


I once met someone who had played college football for a very successful coach. He described the guy as a great coach but a miserable human being.

I do think you can be both a great coach and a great human being.

SoCal

Devilsfan
11-23-2007, 11:52 AM
in the future. He's a good man.

Son of Jarhead
11-23-2007, 01:39 PM
I would like to wish all the best for Ted Roof in the future. His energy & enthusiasm were great. His players seem to really love playing for him. (Which hopefully will make for an inspired effort tomorrow, as a silver lining to a bad situation) My brother had a few classes with Ted at GT & said he was known then as a great guy, which it seems he still is. I have a feeling he will turn up on someones defensive staff fairly quickly. Good luck, Ted... go out a winner! :)

I just had an odd thought... not unusual for me, I know... with all the trouble he has had in the second half of the season, what would the chances be of getting the ol' ball coach to leave the land of the chicken & return to where he began his coaching career? I know, probably not good... but wouldn't that have them baby blue boys just a shakin' in their shoes? :D

bill brill
11-23-2007, 01:44 PM
I wrote a column a couple of days ago for the next issue of blue devil weekly. I haven't sent it yet since I need to see the actual result in chapel hell and hopefully the official announcement. that said, the five-year plan is reality. it will be confirmed by the trustees in february. the football part will be ready soon after football season although I have no idea when, or if, it will be made public. it is the brainchild of a 29-year-old fuqua grad, b.j. naedele, who went to 22 different schools, including peer schools, "basketball" schools, schools that have turned football around. he will incorporate ideas from what these schools did and are doing, including academics, facilities, administrative support, etc. duke will renovate wally wade -- new bathrooms next year. total cost may hit $75M (not for just the johns, although they will be nice). for those who have commented on academics, there will be no lowering of standards, but perhaps more players will be recruited at the lower level. however, and b.j. and everybody involved agree, there will be no dropoff in the graduation rate. that would be sinful. so one thing will be to hire more academic advisors. naedele worked at kansas, where they had 11. duke had 3. as for the new coach, I believe it has to be a head coach with a proven track record. grobe wasn't a big name when he went to wake. look what's happened. and he has eight coaches who have been with him the whole time. I assume that means they are being paid. duke can and will pay competitive money, but it's essential that the coach already would have a staff or could quickly hire one. I always thought amato was a blowhard, but what did him in as much as anything was the inability to keep assistants.

Bluedawg
11-23-2007, 02:12 PM
I probably agree much with what Ozzie just stated.

I am, however, bothered by the fact that Glenn's "multiple sources" gave information in advance of the game. Roof was supposed to talk with Alleva after the game.

Ozzie: Post quickly, "Nickel Nose." You're on 666 posts!
Lavabe

During Thanksgiving I have not checked the board as often as usual...been too busy eating, but what post from Glens are you refering to?

When i saw this thread i looked up the N&O and found this article (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/789194.html)by the always on the spot Luciana Chavez:


Duke athletics director Joe Alleva today disavowed several reports that football coach Ted Roof would be dismissed after Saturday's ACC game at North Carolina.
Alleva said the Internet reports, all citing anonymous sources, were "very premature."

"There's been no decision made yet," Alleva said. "Obviously it has been a tough season. We'll look at it when it's over tomorrow and see what we're going to do."

Bluedawg
11-23-2007, 02:21 PM
I understand, as Dave Glenn reported, that the university has made an extremely comprehensive study of the football program and what it needs to be successful -- including facility upgrades and (even more importantly) academic flexibility.

At TR's request.

g4orce
11-23-2007, 02:39 PM
I've been a lurker for the last several weeks, mostly b/c I just didn't have time to post, but Glenn's article has fired me up to the point that I have to say something.

First, I appluad the effort that Roof gave us. Sure, he may not have won many games, but he DID recruit well despite the negative aura that surrounds Duke fball. Unfortunately, timing is everything as they say:

- how many O coords have we had since he has been here? You can't have consistent improvement when there is no consistency in play calling.

- how many key players have we lost that were crucial to our success eitehr just before or during the season? Vince, Zack, Marcus, Thad(1), etc... You can't win with your key players on the bench

1: After getting some real progress against Wake last year, Thad recvs a concussion vs VT that, I think, set him up to play scared for the rest of the season. How many times did he drop to a knee when he thought that he might get sacked, when ordinarily a QB could run out of it? I just happen to wonder if that is what happend this year as well? Sacked 9 times against VT and now he just doesn't seem to get his feet under him enough to avoid a loss. That is all I can think when I've seen him arbitrarily go down before contact. Also, his pass ability has become suspect since the Vt game. Too many passes over/underthrown to not be something.

- how difficult is it to win with players that don't fit your model? I mean, even Coach K had a few season of mediocre success before he got his brand of players into the mold. Roof inherited players that Franks recruited that just didn't cut the mustard. Again, though timing is everything (2)

2: Who ever comes in next year should, SHOULD win regardless of their ability b/c Roof recruited so well, and we have experience... something that we really haven't had in a long time. Also, with this leak, perhaps the kids will try to "win one for Roof" which would give us a positive start going into next year/next coach.

I feel bad for Roof b/c I think he can win and would've won in a normal circumstance. Being a die-hard Duke fan I believe I can say this with great confidence: This isn't a normal scenario in any shape, form or fashion. I wish Roof tremendous success wherever he lands, and I believe he will be successful.

As to my thoughts for the next coach: Ken Browning

Ken is a current assistant at UNC with a tremendous track record of success in every position he has had. He has survived 4 coaching changes at UNC (Brown, Torbush, Bunting, Davis) and in two cases was the only assistance kept during the coaching change.

Browning KNOWS north carolina, the state and the school. He can help cultivate the talent pool of in-state kids and can talk to them at their level, having coached the original Dynasty in NC High School Fball - Northern Durham (too many accolades to list).

Browning KNOWS football. His understanding of the game is absolutely amazing. His teams won with defense, stiffling defense, and the offense wasn't afraid to break outside of the mold.

I know we can win, but I don't think anyone that has had previous head-coaching experience will risk their coaching future by coming here. I say that with the full knowledge that I might be ridiculed, but it is what it is - my opinion. You might find an assistant that wants to move up, but then we have to willing to shell out the $$$ when/if he becomes successful, b/c I guarantee you he will pull a Spurrier if he does become successful.

I love Duke. I want to see us regain the powerhouse standard that I've heard my father talk about all these years.

Devilsfan
11-23-2007, 02:41 PM
come out. Great timing. Guess they didn't want K's help in this matter either.

Bluedawg
11-23-2007, 02:44 PM
Tom Knotts at Charlotte Independence? He has an experience at Duke (though under Roof) and seems to know what it takes to win. Looks like he also has experience dealing with the public.:rolleyes:

Would either side be interested?

Back in June I posted:


Tom Knotts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_High_School_(Charlotte,_North_Carolin a)). over the past 7 years he is 109-1


Do we sink so low that no one would even consider Duke as a home? cspan suggested that Duke "find a I-AA coach who has turned around 2nd tier programs" After church today i told my wife that maybe Duke needs to talk to Jerry Moore (http://www.goasu.com/football/coach/24/).


My first vote is Jerry Moore (http://www.goasu.com/football/coach/24/)

Second vote is Rod Broadway (http://www.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/stories/011807aaz.html)

Don't really have a third.

But I guess my "third" would have been Tom Knotts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_High_School_(Charlotte,_North_Carolin a)).

Bluedawg
11-23-2007, 02:56 PM
Maybe we should go after somebody just like we went after Wallace Wade. That worked out just fine.

Wallace Wade (http://library.duke.edu/uarchives/history/histnotes/wade_stadium.html) came to Duke, Duke didn't go after him...


Payment of all obligations was assured, despite the deepening economic depression, when one of the best known coaches in the country, Wallace Wade of the University of Alabama, expressed interest in Duke's athletic program. When asked to recommend a coach, Wade surprised the administration with his own interest in the position.

Classof06
11-23-2007, 03:02 PM
In a more serious vein than my last off-topic post, I am saddened that the Roof era has not worked out well for either Ted Roof or for the Bluedevils.

Ted Roof is a great guy who has worked incredibly hard for Duke and brought in some surprisingly good talent. It's a shame that these qualities alone are not enough.

Here's to hoping that this turns out to be the best thing for Duke and for Ted Roof.

Having been at Duke when Roof was hired, I think Roof is a complete class act. He's a good guy and truly cares about the Blue Devil football program.

That being said, I'm in full support of this move. Yes, they could have waited a week for it to leak, but let's be honest; those players would suspect Saturday might be their last game under Roof anyway.

The bottom line, like the quote in the David Glenn article said, is that the record speaks for itself. I don't care what kind of progress Roof was making, I was ready to see him go when we went winless last year. You have to win a game. I hope Duke is able to bring somebody in from the outside and truly start over. This program simply needs to start fresh and that just can't be done with Roof. I wish Ted all the best in his future endeavors.

Bluedawg
11-23-2007, 03:08 PM
I wrote a column a couple of days ago for the next issue of blue devil weekly. I haven't sent it yet since I need to see the actual result in chapel hell and hopefully the official announcement. that said, the five-year plan is reality. it will be confirmed by the trustees in february. the football part will be ready soon after football season although I have no idea when, or if, it will be made public. it is the brainchild of a 29-year-old fuqua grad, b.j. naedele, who went to 22 different schools, including peer schools, "basketball" schools, schools that have turned football around. he will incorporate ideas from what these schools did and are doing, including academics, facilities, administrative support, etc. duke will renovate wally wade -- new bathrooms next year. total cost may hit $75M (not for just the johns, although they will be nice). for those who have commented on academics, there will be no lowering of standards, but perhaps more players will be recruited at the lower level. however, and b.j. and everybody involved agree, there will be no dropoff in the graduation rate. that would be sinful. so one thing will be to hire more academic advisors. naedele worked at kansas, where they had 11. duke had 3. as for the new coach, I believe it has to be a head coach with a proven track record. grobe wasn't a big name when he went to wake. look what's happened. and he has eight coaches who have been with him the whole time. I assume that means they are being paid. duke can and will pay competitive money, but it's essential that the coach already would have a staff or could quickly hire one. I always thought amato was a blowhard, but what did him in as much as anything was the inability to keep assistants.

I agree comletely with your amato comment. I always felt he was flash over substance. Duke needs a coach of substance.

Lavabe
11-23-2007, 03:09 PM
During Thanksgiving I have not checked the board as often as usual...been too busy eating, but what post from Glens are you refering to?

When i saw this thread i looked up the N&O and found this article (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/789194.html)by the always on the spot Luciana Chavez:

We'll look at it when it's over tomorrow and see what we're going to do."

You missed the DBR headline which had this link to WRAL, not the N&O:
http://www.wral.com/sports/blogpost/2078902/

The "multiple sources" attribute comes in the first three paragraphs.

Cheers,
Lavabe

Bluedawg
11-23-2007, 03:16 PM
You missed the DBR headline which had this link to WRAL, not the N&O:
http://www.wral.com/sports/blogpost/2078902/

The "multiple sources" attribute comes in the first three paragraphs.

Cheers,
Lavabe

It appears the N&O article is in reply to this one.

OZZIE4DUKE
11-23-2007, 03:21 PM
But I guess my "third" would have been Tom Knotts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_High_School_(Charlotte,_North_Carolin a)).

Tom currently is having a "problem". http://www.wral.com/sports/prepsports/story/2059369/
Pertinent part is:
The big question is whether or not the school had any knowledge - or could have had knowledge - of the situation. This will be the ultimate factor in whether or not the team is forced to forfeit it's season if the player is found ineligible.

In 1997, Tom Knotts' West Charlotte team was forced to forfeit his season, pay a $300 fine, and return $18,334 in playoff revenue, according to the Observer.

Knotts has never faced sanctions in his tenure at Independence.

A decision regarding the student's eligibility should come soon.

Interesting that this is not Knotts' first time he had this problem. I don't look for knotts to be considered for our HC position.

jimsumner
11-23-2007, 03:36 PM
I'm pretty sure neither Ken Browning nor Tom Knotts will get any consideration. After Barry Wilson, Carl Franks, and TR I can't see Duke going after anyone without head-coaching experience at at least the NCAA Championship series (or whatever they're calling it now) level.

YmoBeThere
11-23-2007, 04:26 PM
Agreed with what much has been said about needing an experienced head coach who can bring along many of his own staff and that it needs to be at least at the Football Championship Subdivision.

FWIW - Vandy used much of these same criteria a few years ago and has achieved a consistent level of performance in the SEC. They play Wake tomorrow.

Bluedawg
11-23-2007, 04:56 PM
I'm pretty sure neither Ken Browning nor Tom Knotts will get any consideration. After Barry Wilson, Carl Franks, and TR I can't see Duke going after anyone without head-coaching experience at at least the NCAA Championship series (or whatever they're calling it now) level.

That leaves Jerry Moore and Rod Broadway from my original list.

Jarhead
11-23-2007, 04:58 PM
The story I had aways heard was that Eddie Cameron had gone down to Alabama to talk to Coach Wade, and came back with the info that Wade was interested. It may be apocryphal, but the rest is history.

By the way, Bluedawg, thanks for the link to the N&O article in response to the leaks we are discussing. There is too much being assumed as fact with no real basis. We have an avalanche of criticism condemning the leaks and the University's handling of this matter without any factual basis. Apologies for all of the unfair criticism are in order, but that won't happen. The only fair assumption is that something will be decided after tomorrow's game. The jury is still out, but it doesn't look good for Coach Roof.

jimsumner
11-23-2007, 05:11 PM
Bluedawg,

You do know that Jerry Moore is 68-years old?

YmoBeThere
11-23-2007, 05:17 PM
You do know that Jerry Moore is 68-years old?

Maybe he'll have a shot at understanding our "history"?

Lavabe
11-23-2007, 05:24 PM
By the way, Bluedawg, thanks for the link to the N&O article in response to the leaks we are discussing. There is too much being assumed as fact with no real basis. We have an avalanche of criticism condemning the leaks and the University's handling of this matter without any factual basis. Apologies for all of the unfair criticism are in order, but that won't happen. The only fair assumption is that something will be decided after tomorrow's game. The jury is still out, but it doesn't look good for Coach Roof.

I guess this then goes to Jim & Bill: At what point does a reporter go ahead and run with a story like this? What tilts the reporter to run with a story like this? How many "multiple sources?" Typically, what sort of corroboration is needed before it runs? Ever have to sit on a story despite having multiple sources?

Lavabe

SmartDevil
11-23-2007, 05:29 PM
We should have learned by now that we need someone with significant head coaching experience.....preferably at a major program....and who has a recognized reputation.

No more coordinators/assistant coaches. No coaches from less than prestigious schools footballwise. No coach lacking major name recognition and cachet as recruits must be impressed and Duke football's public reputation needs a major uplifting immediately.

Nothing less will do. We have the resources to make it happen.

And while there are others that fit that bill also, perhaps Spurrier might be a good choice to consider.

Bluedawg
11-23-2007, 05:29 PM
Bluedawg,

You do know that Jerry Moore is 68-years old?

yes...I also know that Jerry Moore wins ballgames. I thought that is what we were looking for. Someone who can take Duke to the next level and build a program that could continue into the future. Does that not describe jerry moore?

i suspect Bobby Ross was passed on due to his age which was a big mistake. Should we make another one so soon?

Bluedawg
11-23-2007, 05:34 PM
I guess this then goes to Jim & Bill: At what point does a reporter go ahead and run with a story like this? What tilts the reporter to run with a story like this? How many "multiple sources?" Typically, what sort of corroboration is needed before it runs? Ever have to sit on a story despite having multiple sources?

Lavabe

Basically, with all of the news originations out there, most reporters I’ve heard talk about it say it is the push to be first that counts.

This may very well be true, but is should not have been “leaked” or reported until after the UNC game. That type of distraction cost the women their national championship last year, and it could very well cost Duke the UNC game.

Bluedawg
11-23-2007, 05:36 PM
We should have learned by now that we need someone with significant head coaching experience.....preferably at a major program....and who has a recognized reputation.

No more coordinators/assistant coaches. No coaches from less than prestigious schools footballwise. No coach lacking major name recognition and cachet as recruits must be impressed and Duke football's public reputation needs a major uplifting immediately.

Nothing less will do. We have the resources to make it happen.

And while there are others that fit that bill also, perhaps Spurrier might be a good choice to consider.

Spurrier would not come back. he used Duke as a stepping stone. What would it look like if he came back? He is to forward and upwardly moble for that.

jimsumner
11-23-2007, 06:25 PM
Yes, Jerry Moore is a heckuva coach. But I have to believe that it takes a lot more energy to build a program at a new place than sustain a program at the same school. And I just don't see how Moore can be expected to do that at that age.

grossbus
11-23-2007, 06:55 PM
"Spurrier would not come back."

you are almost certainly correct, but wouldn't it be something if he did?

CarrotTD
11-23-2007, 07:36 PM
How about Bill Cowher? He lives in Raleigh, doesn't he? There's a big name for you.

DukeU3x
11-23-2007, 07:37 PM
Three disparate thoughts:

1) If the next head coach is African-American, great! If the next coach is Asian American, great! If the next coach is Hispanic American, great! To decide before the tears are dry, that Duke must hire an African-American coach is as foolish as prematurely deciding that Duke must hire a white coach.

B) It is almost as foolish as deciding to hire a 68 yo to build a program that is the worst of any BCS school. 68...can you say "short term."

III) What evidence do you have that Duke should be considered as possibly "bowl eligible" next year? TR said so? Well, TR will come out a winner here. If Duke is eligible, he can say "I told you so" and if Duke is not he can say "Told you you'd miss me."

jimsumner
11-23-2007, 07:44 PM
"Well, TR will come out a winner here. If Duke is eligible, he can say "I told you so" and if Duke is not he can say "Told you you'd miss me." "

Except that Ted has too much class to say either.

To think that Bill Cowher is going to come out of retirement, survey the coaching landscape, and conclude that Duke is the best he can do is, quite frankly, delusional.

dukie8
11-23-2007, 08:40 PM
"Well, TR will come out a winner here. If Duke is eligible, he can say "I told you so" and if Duke is not he can say "Told you you'd miss me." "

Except that Ted has too much class to say either.

To think that Bill Cowher is going to come out of retirement, survey the coaching landscape, and conclude that Duke is the best he can do is, quite frankly, delusional.

who said that he is going to conclude that duke is the "best he can do?" the san diego job is waiting for him if he wants it. doesn't he have a house in nc? maybe he doesn't feel like going through the grind and microscope of being a head coach in the nfl. maybe he would like to be free in jan-march to watch his daughters play ball in college (aren't they still in college?) i have no idea what he is thinking and neither do most (all) people on here so to summarily dismiss any thoughts of him coming to duke at this point is, well, delusional. alleva would be crazy not to put a call into him because, i am sure everyone on here can agree, he wouldn't be at the healm of any 0-fer duke seasons should he so chose to come here.

jimsumner
11-23-2007, 08:53 PM
dukie8,

I'm not just making this stuff up of the top of my head. Trust me--or don't--Bill Cowher is not going to be the next football coach at Duke.

Uncle Drew
11-23-2007, 10:18 PM
While I am slightly disappointed at the news / rumor that the UNC game will be the last time Coach Ted Roof leads the Duke football program. Here are my top ten requirements in whomever Duke and the powers that be decide to hire........

1. Hire a recognizable name. Spurrier isn't coming back, I think Belichick is happy where he is and Vince Lombardi is dead. So Duke can scratch those names off the list. Yeah I know, like they would come anyway! But when Duke announces their new hire I want Duke fans and fans from other schools to say, "oh him" and not, "who the $@#@"?
2. Hire a GENUINE recruiter. In this day and age when high school kids don't remember Joe Montanna or Troy Aikman, success from ten or more years ago doesn't register with most of them. Duke needs a guy who can take the Duke product and convince a kid who can go elsewhere why Duke is an up and coming program and the place to be. It might be beneficial if he has sold used cars at some point in his lifetime. (I know some Duke grad is going to take exception with that comment because Duke over all is perhaps the greatest university in America. But if you want to go to a school that wins football games, well the record over the last ten years speaks for itself.)
3. The man must have ethics. Say what you want about all the coaches since Spurrier, but it appears they have run a clean program and graduated players. That needs to continue no matter how badly any of us want Duke to win.
4. Show him the money! A little over $300,000 a year as nice as that sounds to a lot of us is NOT going to get a big time coach to come to Duke. I'm not saying fire Coach K so we can add his salary in with the new football coach salary. But be prepared to fork out some cash and incentives that will make a big time coach not only want to interview, but take the job.
5. Hire the best PERSON for the job. Do not fall for special interest reporters or groups and hire the best female, Asian, trans-gender candidate to look good in the eyes of the politically correct. I don't care if the coach is white, black, Asian, Italian, French, male, female, democrat, republican etc, as long as they meet the other requirements. Well as long as they meet those requirements and they didn't go to UNC.
6. Scrutinize his resume. Duke doesn't need a fiasco like GT had when George O'Leary lied on his resume. Look for skeletons in the closet that could come out after hiring and decide if they would be an embarrassment for Duke University. I'm not saying the guy needs to be a saint, but let's hope he doesn't have any secret ties to Bin Laden.
7. He must have had head coaching experience. There is a big difference in being an offensive / defensive coordinator and actually being THE man. One fault I do put on Roof and Franks is neither truly had an idea of the scrutiny they would be under as head coach and having to take most of the blame when things didn't go well. Everyone is throwing out names of coordinators in college and the NFL left and right. I'm not saying they can't be good coaches and might not be great hires. But going from a back up role to the VIP is a step a lot of talented coaches weren't ready for.
8. Make out a five year plan. Duke should make out a list of what they hope to accomplish over the next five years in detail for the prospective coach to see. And the coach should make a list of goals, equipment improvements, facility improvements etc. he thinks would benefit the program. We all know the coach won't be able to meet all the goals set for him anymore than Duke will fork out money left and right to build a dome over Wallace Wade. But both sides need to be heading in the same general direction on the same track with the same destination in mind.
9. The new coach should be red shirt oriented. Roof tried his best to get more and more players to red-shirt a season especially their freshman year. Getting a year under their belt to get the academics down while learning the football system and doing strength training is key to turning the program around. It's going to be hard to get top flight talent to come to Duke right now no matter how good a snake oil salesman you are. But if you can get some good recruits and give them an extra season to mature and grow it will show on Saturdays and hopefully lure the top flight talent to Duke.
10. Do not make a rush to hire! We all know that recruits and potential recruits want to know who will be coaching Duke next year and won't commit unless they do. But Duke has to look at the program as if they were starting a whole new program, not rebuilding. The foundation that the Duke teams of the 1930's and 1940's has eroded away, and the success Spurrier had is now dust in the wind. This is a whole new batch of biscuits after ten plus years of burnt toast. The AD and the powers that be need to sit down and get this one right, because another failure at coach won't just be blamed on that coach it will reflect their ability to recruit talented leaders as well.

Feel free to add 11-? or slam my list, but this is an opportunity for Duke to get it right and give us all something to talk about in a positive manner in the fall / summer.

Bluedawg
11-23-2007, 11:11 PM
To decide before the tears are dry, that Duke must hire an African-American coach is as foolish as prematurely deciding that Duke must hire a white coach.

I've read this thred from top to bottom today because i arrived at it late and no one has said a word about race. Who has said that?

Bluedawg
11-23-2007, 11:12 PM
"Well, TR will come out a winner here. If Duke is eligible, he can say "I told you so" and if Duke is not he can say "Told you you'd miss me." "

Except that Ted has too much class to say either.

Absolutely correct.

Bluedawg
11-23-2007, 11:25 PM
I agree with what you are saying.

I think Duke has a 5-year plan that will be coming out soon, if I've read the other thread correctly.

I agree that they should not rush to hire, but the problem in today's culture is that the longer it takes the more the media speculates that it is taking a long time because no one wants to come here.

It can’t be fast, but it can't linger and it must be decisive. They can’t run a lot of names up the flagpole like State did when the hired Coach Lowe. It can’t be public, although that will drive all of us crazy, the name released should be they name they hire.

Oh, my #11 would be to revaluate the strength and conditioning program. I still feel that was a key problem with this year’s team. A lot of the errors looked like fatigue errors and after one person has had 25 years to build a program that should not happen.

OZZIE4DUKE
11-23-2007, 11:30 PM
It might be beneficial if he has sold used cars at some point in his lifetime. (I know some Duke grad is going to take exception with that comment )

Actually, I'm going to agree with this point. I've been a salesman since the week after I graduated from Duke in 1976, and four years ago I sold used cars for 6 weeks. And no, I'm not applying for the HC job - I'm not qualified. It is the AD job that I want.

Much of what you have laid out as recommendations jive with what I said in the original post in the other thread, where I expect these posts will end up when a moderator gets around to it. One interesting note is when you said he can't be a unc grad, and on the surface I would certainly agree. But one of the names mentioned is Rod Broadway, currently the coach at Grambling and formerly at NCCU, has been a Duke assistant under 2 head coaches and is actually a unc alum. I think he merits consideration.

Bluedawg
11-23-2007, 11:37 PM
One interesting note is when you said he can't be a unc grad, and on the surface I would certainly agree.

That is the one thing I did not agree with, but chose to let it pass. I am not a UNC fan in any way shape or form and never pull for them...regardless. I pulled against them in the baseball WS.


However, the best person for the job is the best person for the job regardless. If we let football's version of the next Coach K get past us because of a UNC connection then we deserve what we get.

OZZIE4DUKE
11-23-2007, 11:40 PM
If we let football's version of the next Coach K get past us because of a UNC connection then we deserve what we get.

Isn't that what I said here

Rod Broadway, currently the coach at Grambling and formerly at NCCU, has been a Duke assistant under 2 head coaches and is actually a unc alum. I think he merits consideration.

Uncle Drew
11-23-2007, 11:52 PM
I agree with what you are saying.

I think Duke has a 5-year plan that will be coming out soon, if I've read the other thread correctly.

I agree that they should not rush to hire, but the problem in today's culture is that the longer it takes the more the media speculates that it is taking a long time because no one wants to come here.

It can’t be fast, but it can't linger and it must be decisive. They can’t run a lot of names up the flagpole like State did when the hired Coach Lowe. It can’t be public, although that will drive all of us crazy, the name released should be they name they hire.

Oh, my #11 would be to revaluate the strength and conditioning program. I still feel that was a key problem with this year’s team. A lot of the errors looked like fatigue errors and after one person has had 25 years to build a program that should not happen.


You'd think a University that prides itself on health related issues would be years ahead of other programs when it comes to strength and conditioning. Sure a lot of it has to do with busting ones glutimus maximus in the weight room. But simple things like laying out a summer lifting / running program along with nutrition guide would help. Then again, that would help us all.

Ozzie said: "One interesting note is when you said he can't be a unc grad, and on the surface I would certainly agree. But one of the names mentioned is Rod Broadway, currently the coach at Grambling and formerly at NCCU, has been a Duke assistant under 2 head coaches and is actually a unc alum. I think he merits consideration."

Okay but wouldn't that be like hiring a rabbi to conduct a service at a mosque? I'll be blunt and say their program has had some star players over the years but not much more success on the field than Duke aside from one or two Mack Brown years. Torbush and Bunting were both flops, I'm not sure I want Duke to go picking fruit off that coaching tree. And while regular season championships, bowl berths etc are important I want the coach to want to beat UNC as much as anything.

Ozz, I'll sell ya a 98 Cadilac, with 20,000 miles on it, only driven to Church on Sundays and to the grocery store by a little old lady. (The little old lady was Tammy Faye Baker.....the interior is covered in makeup stains, and it's been in 6 wrecks due to Valium use.):D

dukie8
11-24-2007, 01:22 AM
dukie8,

I'm not just making this stuff up of the top of my head. Trust me--or don't--Bill Cowher is not going to be the next football coach at Duke.

i don't think that he will be coaching at duke either. i would love it but i also don't think that it is delusional to be hoping for it.

DukeU3x
11-24-2007, 07:47 AM
I've read this thred from top to bottom today because i arrived at it late and no one has said a word about race. Who has said that?

The DBR editorial staff...link on the Main Page.

Bluedawg
11-24-2007, 08:42 AM
Isn't that what I said here

Yes, and I was in agreement...didn't want you hanging out there all alone

Bluedawg
11-24-2007, 08:56 AM
Okay but wouldn't that be like hiring a rabbi to conduct a service at a mosque? I'll be blunt and say their program has had some star players over the years but not much more success on the field than Duke aside from one or two Mack Brown years. Torbush and Bunting were both flops, I'm not sure I want Duke to go picking fruit off that coaching tree.

You are right. Why in the world would Duke want this type of coach?


A native of Oakboro , N.C. , the 28-year veteran of the coaching ranks wasted no time in putting his stamp on the NCCU program by posting three consecutive winning seasons of eight or more games after a 4-6 record in his inaugural campaign. This past season, Broadway made history as he led the Eagles to a No. 1 seed in the NCAA Division II’s Southeast Region, a No. 1 ranking in the SBN Poll and back-to-back CIAA titles for the first time since the 1953-54 seasons. In addition, the Eagles also fielded the CIAA’s top-ranked offense (345.1 ypg) along with the 15th ranked defense in NCAA Division II (250.7 ypg). Broadway’s 2006 team also featured four players who earned SBN All-American honors including the SBN’s Offensive Player of the Year in freshman quarterback Stadford Brown, 12 All-CIAA selections, 10 Daktronics All-Southeast Region honorees and two Associated Press Little All-Americans.

He closes out his four-year career at NCCU with a decorated resume’ that includes multiple honors by the Pigskin Club of Washington D.C., Inc., a 33-11 overall record, back-to-back CIAA titles, two consecutive appearances in the NCAA Division II Playoffs, a 16-game regular season winning streak and a 29-4 record over the past three seasons. In addition, Broadway also collected the school’s first-ever victory over a Southwestern Athletic Conference (SWAC) opponent with a victory over Southern University in 2006.
[source (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19006)]

Bluedawg
11-24-2007, 09:03 AM
The DBR editorial staff...link on the Main Page.

OK...i found it and I see your point.

I brought up Ron Broadway long before they thought of him but not for their reasoning...mine was because of what I put in my previous post. His resume is solid.

I understand their logic, but i think it is insulting both to Duke and to the people they are targeting.

captmojo
11-24-2007, 11:00 AM
Thanks to all for their knowledgeable reports on Tom Knotts.

With nothing official as yet, I wish all the best to Coach Roof and express my wishes that everything works out for the best for all concerned.

Now that the nice sentiments are out of the way........


...GO TO HELL CAROLINA, GO TO HELL!!!!!!!!!!

throatybeard
11-24-2007, 12:41 PM
Lost in all of this is that it's a really bad time for a lower-tier program like us to be looking for a coach, because everybody and their dog is looking for a coach this year. We're looking up at the likes of Michigan/LSU (one will have to hire someone not named Les Miles), Nebraska, probably UCLA, Ole Miss, possibly Arkansas &c.

And sideways at Baylor.

Capn Poptart
11-24-2007, 01:49 PM
"But when Duke announces their new hire I want Duke fans and fans from other schools to say, "oh him" and not, "who the $@#@"?"

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Like when they announced a total unknown from Army as basketball coach?

rockymtn devil
11-24-2007, 01:51 PM
Lost in all of this is that it's a really bad time for a lower-tier program like us to be looking for a coach, because everybody and their dog is looking for a coach this year. We're looking up at the likes of Michigan/LSU (one will have to hire someone not named Les Miles), Nebraska, probably UCLA, Ole Miss, possibly Arkansas &c.

And sideways at Baylor.

This is a great point, and one that I hadn't thought of until now. Nebraska and Ole Miss have already made it official, and Houston Nutt is apparently prepared to leave Arkansas (side note: it was great to see how happy he was after the win last night; Arkansas doesn't deserve a coach as good as him)

I still think Duke should look to 1-AA for its new coach. Big name coaches not named Dennis Erickson don't go to programs in need of serious work (unless they want to wind down their career (Spurrier) or are seeking redemption (Butch Davis)). Further, it needs to be someone with an undestanding of recruiting in the mid-atlantic/SE, and, preferably, has good relations with high schools in the Carolinas. In an earlier post I mentioned Ohio State's choice of Jim Tressel in 2000. Who outside of Ohio (and people who follow 1-AA closely) knew who Tressel was? But, as someone deeply rooted in Ohio football, he had great ties to high school programs around the state and has effectively erected a recruiting wall around Ohio. Duke needs to someone who can bring in quality players from the region, and going with someone with built-in ties puts the team at an immediate advantage.

Big names don't necesarily win games. Between Charlie Weis and Jim Tressel, one has a big name, but one has 5 national titles as a college head coach. I'll take the no-name.

PomPomGirl
11-24-2007, 01:56 PM
I'm just now hearing this (newborns have a way of putting you 2-3 days behind the news, I've learned.) I am sorry but unsurprised to hear these reports, given our record over the past few years. My little brother goes to ND, and was worried that we might beat them last week - unfortunately, my reassurances that no, we really were a *lot* worse than they were proved far too on point last week. The recruiting has improved, and we've at least been able to score some points this year, but at some point the wins have to come. I share in the skepticism around our ability to find a strong candidate who wants to come - we've heard before that we're investing in football, and we keep getting more of the same.

In the meantime, Carolina can GO TO HELL!

throatybeard
11-24-2007, 02:08 PM
PomPomGirl, long time no see, stick around.

tux
11-24-2007, 02:57 PM
I understand your point about Tressel, but OSU is a large state school in a HS football-rich state with very little local recruiting competition.

Duke has a national appeal; I think focusing on regional recruiting (especially NC, which has an above average but not great pool of football talent --- where every great talent west of W Salem plays in the SEC) would be a hugh mistake.

I'm not saying that a coach with local HS ties would not help, but those players will still need to meet Duke's academic standards. Because of that, I think Duke needs to cast a much wider net.

rockymtn devil
11-24-2007, 03:17 PM
I understand your point about Tressel, but OSU is a large state school in a HS football-rich state with very little local recruiting competition.

Duke has a national appeal; I think focusing on regional recruiting (especially NC, which has an above average but not great pool of football talent --- where every great talent west of W Salem plays in the SEC) would be a hugh mistake.

I'm not saying that a coach with local HS ties would not help, but those players will still need to meet Duke's academic standards. Because of that, I think Duke needs to cast a much wider net.

Yes, Ohio has a deeper, better HS football pool than both of the Carolinas (and really every state outside of Florida, California and Texas) but Ohio State does have local competition to deal with--Michigan, Michigan State, Penn State, and national programs seeking Ohio players, especially Notre Dame. I think one of the reasons Michigan has declined in the Jim Tressel era is that it no longer gets the top-flight Ohio players that it did before (in the recent HBO documentary on the OSU-Michigan rivalry, they noted how important Ohio HS football has been to the Wolverine's success).

My views on the coaching search come from a practical view of things. If casting a wider net means going for a big national name, it's my belief that Duke won't snag someone who will impress. It's just not going to happen, IMO, and that's okay. But, if by wider net you mean looking outside the region for a more under-the-radar coach, I absolutely agree. I do think, however, that the school should at least look at regional coaches with proven success who have connections to regional high schools.

I think the worst thing Duke can do is go for a former NFL coach--head or coordinator. In the NFL it's about gameplanning and not teaching, and the inability to teach 18-year olds how to play is the demise of most coaches who make that move. Putting aside that Weis wasn't even a good coordinator in the NFL, he's a terrible college coach because he can't teach football.

Lavabe
11-24-2007, 03:24 PM
Well... looks like Nebraska has an opening, as does Texas A&M (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=ncf&id=3125161).

Cheers,
Lavabe

PomPomGirl
11-24-2007, 04:01 PM
PomPomGirl, long time no see, stick around.

I hope to. :)

throatybeard
11-24-2007, 04:08 PM
(in the recent HBO documentary on the OSU-Michigan rivalry, they noted how important Ohio HS football has been to the Wolverine's success).

I wish I had seen this. Border kids mainly?

dukie8
11-24-2007, 04:09 PM
Lost in all of this is that it's a really bad time for a lower-tier program like us to be looking for a coach, because everybody and their dog is looking for a coach this year. We're looking up at the likes of Michigan/LSU (one will have to hire someone not named Les Miles), Nebraska, probably UCLA, Ole Miss, possibly Arkansas &c.

And sideways at Baylor.

how is this year different than any other year? some coaches leave, some coaches get fired and there always are openings come december/january.

dukie8
11-24-2007, 04:25 PM
I'm just now hearing this (newborns have a way of putting you 2-3 days behind the news, I've learned.) I am sorry but unsurprised to hear these reports, given our record over the past few years. My little brother goes to ND, and was worried that we might beat them last week - unfortunately, my reassurances that no, we really were a *lot* worse than they were proved far too on point last week. The recruiting has improved, and we've at least been able to score some points this year, but at some point the wins have to come. I share in the skepticism around our ability to find a strong candidate who wants to come - we've heard before that we're investing in football, and we keep getting more of the same.

In the meantime, Carolina can GO TO HELL!

why do people keep on believing that duke's recruiting has improved? it hasn't. i posted the rivals.com rankings a month ago and here they are again:

2007: duke 78
2006: duke 56
2005: duke 46
2004: duke 70

it was bad before roof got to duke and he has continued its rich tradition.

rockymtn devil
11-24-2007, 04:34 PM
I wish I had seen this. Border kids mainly.

It was a great show, and I'm sure HBO will replay it at some point. They interviewed Bo the week before he died. Michigan does get a lot of border players, but the nature Ohio football is that the power lies in the northeast (Youngstown, Warren, Canton, Massilon) and in the southwest (Colrain, Moeller, St. X., Princeton) so the top players tend to come from up there anyway. Only two Columbus teams have won the D-1 state title in the last 40 years (Upper Arlington in 2000 and Hilliard Davidson last year).

Mabdul Doobakus
11-24-2007, 05:22 PM
why do people keep on believing that duke's recruiting has improved? it hasn't. i posted the rivals.com rankings a month ago and here they are again:

2007: duke 78
2006: duke 56
2005: duke 46
2004: duke 70

it was bad before roof got to duke and he has continued its rich tradition.

46/56 is pretty good for Duke, isn't it? I went to school from 2000-2004, and I don't think we were pulling in classes like that. I think Roof should go if we lose today, but the part about recruiting better does seem true, even with the numbers you posted.

dukie8
11-24-2007, 05:35 PM
46/56 is pretty good for Duke, isn't it? I went to school from 2000-2004, and I don't think we were pulling in classes like that. I think Roof should go if we lose today, but the part about recruiting better does seem true, even with the numbers you posted.

i went back further:

2003: 109 (ouch)
2002: 68

the database doesn't go back further than this. so 2003 was a disaster and 2002 was more or less in line with how we historically have recruited.

interestingly enough, i looked at wake. they were ranked as follows:

2003: 57
2004: 95
2005: 65
2006: 75
2007: 89
2008: 57

so wake has had WORSE ranked classes than duke and it didn't stop them from becoming good. coaching matters. also, duke's 2008 class now is up -- it's 56, so all this talk about how much better our recruiting is really is a bunch of malarky. it's as bad or mediocre as it always has been.

merry
11-24-2007, 05:46 PM
PomPomGirl, long time no see, stick around.

I second this sentiment! Nice to have you back.

Uncle Drew
11-24-2007, 06:10 PM
"But when Duke announces their new hire I want Duke fans and fans from other schools to say, "oh him" and not, "who the $@#@"?"

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Like when they announced a total unknown from Army as basketball coach?



It is my belief and fans can say what they will, but Duke University got so lucky when they hired Coach K. I mean we can all look back now and see what he's done and say Duke was "lucky". But I believe they went after a diamond in the rough rather than a big name after Bill Foster left. They ended up with a 10 karat flawless diamond and we're all the better for it. But it is also my belief that in EVERY coach since Spurrier Duke University has gone after another diamond in the rough to coach the football team and they have ended up with little more than quartz. I'm not saying there aren't more diamonds in the rough out there to be had. It's just that for 18 years now Duke has gone after coaches with an unknown name and unproven track records over the LONG haul. And year after year, no matter how much they loved Duke, wanted to turn things around or had the greatest of intentions the football program has gotten worse and worse.

I know Duke isn't going to reel in Cower, Jimmy Johnson or Bill Parcells. But for once when the time comes I'd like them to announce the new coach and everyone say, "oh him"! Again I hope Duke pulls it out against UNC and they give Roof one more year. But if the rumors are true stop trying to run the Indianapolis 500 with a Model T Ford!

OZZIE4DUKE
11-24-2007, 06:50 PM
It's been nice knowing you. Good luck in your future endeavors, where ever they may lead you.

jmb
11-24-2007, 07:13 PM
how about Dan McCarney. took iowa state from a joke of a big 8 team to a perennial bowl team before leaving last year. spent this year coaching the d-line at USF. i don't know if he'd come, but since when has that stopped anyone from making a suggestion on this board?

dukeman28428
11-24-2007, 07:18 PM
WOW.....with all of the opportunities we had to beat UNC today, I feel so bad for our players and coaches that I do not know what to do. Our fans too have to feel terrible as we had Carolina right where we wanted them but we could not seal the deal. The administration has to step up and give this program the support it deserves and I hope that they will as Duke is better than this!!

YmoBeThere
11-24-2007, 07:26 PM
how about Dan McCarney. took iowa state from a joke of a big 8 team to a perennial bowl team before leaving last year. spent this year coaching the d-line at USF. i don't know if he'd come, but since when has that stopped anyone from making a suggestion on this board?

An interesting idea, but I don't think perennial bowl team fits based on the last 4 years...

2003 Iowa State 2-10
2004 Iowa State 7-5
2005 Iowa State 7-5
2006 Iowa State 4-8

Sixthman
11-24-2007, 07:56 PM
WOW.....with all of the opportunities we had to beat UNC today, I feel so bad for our players and coaches that I do not know what to do. Our fans too have to feel terrible as we had Carolina right where we wanted them but we could not seal the deal. The administration has to step up and give this program the support it deserves and I hope that they will as Duke is better than this!!

It is the myth of those who cannot accept reality that "the administration" is somehow responsible for the fate of the football program. Of course, it's true in the sense that the administration is unwilling to make Duke the Oklahoma of the East (the Oklahoma president has been quoted as saying he's "building a university the football team will be proud of"). What should the administration at Duke do? We built a state of the art training facility and locker room for the team and we're planning a remake of Wallace Wade (which will make it a more pleasant place to watch a loss but will have absolutely no impact on recruiting because it will still be half empty and inferior to the stadiums of most of the schools against which we might dream of recruiting). We might replace Ted Roof (a spectacularly decent guy who I hope we keep), but even if we hired the football equivalent of Coach K, football is different -- he won't stay -- because there will always be better places to go in football (which will never be true in Basketball). Should we lower the admission standards and make Duke more like Wake Forest so we can win a few football games. Please. Kill me first.

dukie8
11-24-2007, 08:04 PM
It is the myth of those who cannot accept reality that "the administration" is somehow responsible for the fate of the football program. Of course, it's true in the sense that the administration is unwilling to make Duke the Oklahoma of the East (the Oklahoma president has been quoted as saying he's "building a university the football team will be proud of"). What should the administration at Duke do? We built a state of the art training facility and locker room for the team and we're planning a remake of Wallace Wade (which will make it a more pleasant place to watch a loss but will have absolutely no impact on recruiting because it will still be half empty and inferior to the stadiums of most of the schools against which we might dream of recruiting). We might replace Ted Roof (a spectacularly decent guy who I hope we keep), but even if we hired the football equivalent of Coach K, football is different -- he won't stay -- because there will always be better places to go in football (which will never be true in Basketball). Should we lower the admission standards and make Duke more like Wake Forest so we can win a few football games. Please. Kill me first.

you guys need to get over this "nice guy" stuff about roof. he can't coach. plain and simple. this world has plenty of spots for "nice guys" -- the head football coaching job at a bcs school making over $500K isn't one of them. if he really is as "nice" of a guy as so many on here make him out to be (despite, i am sure for most, never having met him), then there will be a long list of high schools that will be more than happy to offer him a job.

grossbus
11-24-2007, 08:19 PM
"you guys need to get over this "nice guy" stuff about roof. he can't coach. plain and simple."

i concur

Sixthman
11-24-2007, 08:32 PM
you guys need to get over this "nice guy" stuff about roof. he can't coach. plain and simple. this world has plenty of spots for "nice guys" -- the head football coaching job at a bcs school making over $500K isn't one of them. if he really is as "nice" of a guy as so many on here make him out to be (despite, i am sure for most, never having met him), then there will be a long list of high schools that will be more than happy to offer him a job.

It doesn't make any difference whether he can coach. My point is that no one can win in football at Duke unless Duke ceases to be Duke. Those with a shot term view or lack of experience may be presuming it can't get worse than this. IT CAN. We could hire a big time ^$%^$%^$%^$%^$%^$%^$%, compromise our academic standards, recruit some criminals, AND STILL LOSE!

atldevil
11-24-2007, 08:41 PM
Does anybody think that we would take a chance with George O'Leary? I am not sure that he would take the job, because he is in a pretty good position at Central Florida, but it would be a move back to a BCS conference. I know that he has the issue with the resume in his past, but I think that was blown out of proportion, and he has served his penalty by missing out on Notre Dame and being banished to Cent. Fla. in Conf. USA.

His positives are the fact that he has proven that he can win in the ACC, he has coached at a school that claims to have high academic standards, and he coaches a very disciplined style of football, but is creative on offense, as evidenced by the success he had with Joe Hamilton.

I think this hire would have a pretty high splash factor, but again, who knows if he would take it. I am also hearing from a lot of Tech alums that they would like to have him back to take Chan Gailey's place.

Lavabe
11-24-2007, 08:50 PM
His positives are the fact that he has proven that he can win in the ACC, he has coached at a school that claims to have high academic standards, and he coaches a very disciplined style of football, but is creative on offense, as evidenced by the success he had with Joe Hamilton.

I think this hire would have a pretty high splash factor, but again, who knows if he would take it. I am also hearing from a lot of Tech alums that they would like to have him back to take Chan Gailey's place.

Wasn't his offense in part due to a certain coordinator who now coaches at Md?

There's a lot of talk about Gailey... but it's hard to judge in the aftermath of a bad UGA game.

Cheers,
Lavabe

wolfpackdevil
11-24-2007, 08:52 PM
steve Logan

dukie8
11-24-2007, 08:57 PM
It doesn't make any difference whether he can coach. My point is that no one can win in football at Duke unless Duke ceases to be Duke. Those with a shot term view or lack of experience may be presuming it can't get worse than this. IT CAN. We could hire a big time ^$%^$%^$%^$%^$%^$%^$%, compromise our academic standards, recruit some criminals, AND STILL LOSE!

that is completely ridiculous. duke doesn't need to lower its standards to win 4-5 games a year. if it wants to be in the bcs hunt every year, it does, but it doesn't just to be average, which is all any reasonable person wants. the talent was there to have beaten nd, unc and wake. the problem was that the coaching wasn't there.

the military schools have some MUCH bigger hurdles to overcome recruiting-wise than duke's academics. how would you like to have to explain to a recruit that he is going to have to serve in this thing called the military after he is done playing ball and, oh, by the way, there are several active wars going on so the 5 years won't be on some base in germany or manila where chasing women is the most important activity? throw that ontop of zippo in the social scene, academics that are going to be even harder than duke's and maximum player size limits? that doesn't seem to stop air force and navy (not really army lately) from at least being competitive and not the laughing stock of college football.

grossbus
11-24-2007, 08:58 PM
"You may have missed the point."

no, i get it. i just don't agree with it. coaching can make a difference and Duke can be certainly be much better than they are now.

atldevil
11-24-2007, 09:02 PM
I am sure Friedgen was a part of his success, but its not like Ralph has had great offenses at Md. Also, O'Leary has done well at UCF without Friedgen. They are 8-3 this year with a win over NC State, a close loss to Texas, a loss to South Fla., and a loss to ECU, who is not bad. UCF is leading their division of Conf. USA and has clinched a spot in the Conf. USA championship game.

Also, note that he has built this team from nothing. Remember his first year there, in 2004, they were 0-11. So he has experience in rebuilding a program.

Sixthman
11-24-2007, 09:04 PM
the military schools have some MUCH bigger hurdles to overcome recruiting-wise than duke's academics. how would you like to have to explain to a recruit that he is going to have to serve in this thing called the military after he is done playing ball and, oh, by the way, there are several active wars going on so the 5 years won't be on some base in germany or manila where chasing women is the most important activity? throw that ontop of zippo in the social scene, academics that are going to be even harder than duke's and maximum player size limits? that doesn't seem to stop air force and navy (not really army lately) from at least being competitive and not the laughing stock of college football.

You've got me there.

atldevil
11-24-2007, 09:06 PM
It doesn't make any difference whether he can coach. My point is that no one can win in football at Duke unless Duke ceases to be Duke. Those with a shot term view or lack of experience may be presuming it can't get worse than this. IT CAN. We could hire a big time ^$%^$%^$%^$%^$%^$%^$%, compromise our academic standards, recruit some criminals, AND STILL LOSE!

So how do you explain the success that Wake has had the last few years. If they can succeed, we certainly should be able to do it. They have half the enrollment size, and I believe a smaller football budget. The reason they have been able to succeed though is that they are very fundamentally sound because of great coaching.

Do you think they have compromised their standards? I haven't really heard of many issues there, but maybe I missed something.

Bob Green
11-24-2007, 09:07 PM
...so the 5 years won't be on some base in germany or manila where chasing women is the most important activity?

Ah, the good ol' days! Unfortunately, our bases in the Philippines (Subic Bay not Manila) are closed.:D

Sixthman
11-24-2007, 09:12 PM
So how do you explain the success that Wake has had the last few years. If they can succeed, we certainly should be able to do it. They have half the enrollment size, and I believe a smaller football budget. The reason they have been able to succeed though is that they are very fundamentally sound because of great coaching.

Do you think they have compromised their standards? I haven't really heard of many issues there, but maybe I missed something.

Thanks for the question. My understanding of the word on the street is that Wake did lower its academic standards (which were already lower than Duke's) prior to their recent run of success. I have no basis for this other than rumor, but have heard it repeatedly and never heard it disputed.

grossbus
11-24-2007, 09:12 PM
besides having a good year, ucf has a new on campus stadium, and o'leary and his assistants are highly paid.

in total, it is a good deal and it is only going to get better. i doubt he would leave.

Sixthman
11-24-2007, 09:14 PM
So how do you explain the success that Wake has had the last few years. If they can succeed, we certainly should be able to do it. They have half the enrollment size, and I believe a smaller football budget. The reason they have been able to succeed though is that they are very fundamentally sound because of great coaching.

Do you think they have compromised their standards? I haven't really heard of many issues there, but maybe I missed something.

But my last response may be read to imply that academic compromises are the main reasons for Wake's success, which I do not believe. They have a first rate coach who found a great formula for Wake and stuck to it.

atldevil
11-24-2007, 09:24 PM
But with the supposed new strategic plan for football and the resources of the university, if we are going to get someone of merit, we are going to have to pay up. We should be able to exceed anything he is making at UCF. I know they have a new stadium, but are we not going to redo Wally Wade and make it a great facility? I just think that O'Leary would have a burning desire to get back to the ACC and compete at a high level. He is really not going to be able to do that at UCF. Even if he continually wins Conf. USA, that gets no recognition and he will always be third fiddle to Fla. and FSU. As Wake and Spurrier have proven, picking our spots, we can compete in the state of North Carolina and the ACC.

grossbus
11-24-2007, 09:28 PM
"are we not going to redo Wally Wade and make it a great facility"

are we? i really don't know the plans. i read something about rest rooms, but am unaware of the extent of the renovations. i got the sense that it was not a major uplift to the stadium.

willywoody
11-24-2007, 09:35 PM
"are we not going to redo Wally Wade and make it a great facility"

are we? i really don't know the plans. i read something about rest rooms, but am unaware of the extent of the renovations. i got the sense that it was not a major uplift to the stadium.

do you not get bluedevil weekly?

dukie8
11-24-2007, 09:39 PM
But with the supposed new strategic plan for football and the resources of the university, if we are going to get someone of merit, we are going to have to pay up. We should be able to exceed anything he is making at UCF. I know they have a new stadium, but are we not going to redo Wally Wade and make it a great facility? I just think that O'Leary would have a burning desire to get back to the ACC and compete at a high level. He is really not going to be able to do that at UCF. Even if he continually wins Conf. USA, that gets no recognition and he will always be third fiddle to Fla. and FSU. As Wake and Spurrier have proven, picking our spots, we can compete in the state of North Carolina and the ACC.

what's your definition of "pay up?" here's a good site for what coaches make:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/graphics/coaches_contracts/flash.htm

it doesn't have the 2006 and 2007 numbers, which i assume are higher. it looks like $1.25MM is more than enough to get someone good. if duke really were willing to pay coach g $700K for a team that had total REVENUE of $500K, then i don't see what the issue would be paying another $500K for a football coach that would have a material financial impact on the university (ie, incremental millions of dollars per year).

atldevil
11-24-2007, 09:44 PM
I completely agree. We can't have a coach that is by far the lowest paid in the ACC and expect to succeed. We need to at least be in the middle, if not higher. By the way, this database has O'Leary at $1.035 million. We should definitely be able to afford to exceed this.

jlear
11-24-2007, 09:45 PM
Thanks for the question. My understanding of the word on the street is that Wake did lower its academic standards (which were already lower than Duke's) prior to their recent run of success. I have no basis for this other than rumor, but have heard it repeatedly and never heard it disputed.

Do you believe only academically inferior players win games?

Duke has had more highly ranked recruiting classes than Wake in 2004 (25 spots better), 2005 (19 spots better), 2006 (19 spots better), 2007 (11 spots better), 2008 (1 spot better). Wake was better in 2003 by 52 spots ouch [this is data posted by dukie8 earlier in this thread].

Coaching at all levels from strength & conditioning to the head coach matters period.

I reject that academic requirements have to be decreased significantly if at all. There at plenty of 3, 4 and 5 star recruits that could get into Duke without football if they were so inclined. Maybe we have to lower them to be in the BCS hunt, but I think most here would be happy to play win ½ of our games.

Boswell
11-24-2007, 09:50 PM
I'm just now hearing this (newborns have a way of putting you 2-3 days behind the news, I've learned.) I am sorry but unsurprised to hear these reports, given our record over the past few years. My little brother goes to ND, and was worried that we might beat them last week - unfortunately, my reassurances that no, we really were a *lot* worse than they were proved far too on point last week. The recruiting has improved, and we've at least been able to score some points this year, but at some point the wins have to come. I share in the skepticism around our ability to find a strong candidate who wants to come - we've heard before that we're investing in football, and we keep getting more of the same.

In the meantime, Carolina can GO TO HELL!

Fabulous seeing you again, PomPom! Glad to have you back. Always good to see people here who haven't posted in a while. :)

Sixthman
11-24-2007, 10:17 PM
Do you believe only academically inferior players win games?

Duke has had more highly ranked recruiting classes than Wake in 2004 (25 spots better), 2005 (19 spots better), 2006 (19 spots better), 2007 (11 spots better), 2008 (1 spot better). Wake was better in 2003 by 52 spots ouch [this is data posted by dukie8 earlier in this thread].

Coaching at all levels from strength & conditioning to the head coach matters period.

I reject that academic requirements have to be decreased significantly if at all. There at plenty of 3, 4 and 5 star recruits that could get into Duke without football if they were so inclined. Maybe we have to lower them to be in the BCS hunt, but I think most here would be happy to play win ½ of our games.


I'm not sure what "academically inferior" players are. I am sure that in any given year every team in every BCS conference (including Duke) has many players who would not have gotten into Duke without having material weight in the admissions process being assigned to their athletic accomplishments. The question is how many exceptions are made, how big are they, and what are the consequences. (I have known people who admitted to Duke on such basis who were more than academically competent, so it's not necessarily a question of compromising academic standards, so much as it is working the admissions process). I've never heard of a coach at any school that had rigorous admissions standards that did run into struggles in the admissions process while trying to build the program. There are more prospective football players who cannot compete academically (or would not want to compete academically) at Duke than there are who can. Thus, it is a small pool from which we recruit, and when someone is a talented football player and academically gifted, we are not just recruiting against other fine universities for the prospect, but are recruiting against everyone for him. Oklahoma has nothing against guys with 4.4 speed and a 4.0 average, they just are more interested in the 4.4 than the 4.0. Duke, on the other hand, is recruiting against Oklahoma, Michigan, Florida State, Miami, USC, Ohio State, etc. . . for the ten guys in every high school class who have both. We don't get many and it is harder to win without them.

jlear
11-24-2007, 10:30 PM
I'm not sure what "academically inferior" players are. I am sure that in any given year every team in every BCS conference (including Duke) has many players who would not have gotten into Duke without having material weight in the admissions process being assigned to their athletic accomplishments. The question is how many exceptions are made, how big are they, and what are the consequences. (I have known people who admitted to Duke on such basis who were more than academically competent, so it's not necessarily a question of compromising academic standards, so much as it is working the admissions process). I've never heard of a coach at any school that had rigorous admissions standards that did run into struggles in the admissions process while trying to build the program. There are more prospective football players who cannot compete academically (or would not want to compete academically) at Duke than there are who can. Thus, it is a small pool from which we recruit, and when someone is a talented football player and academically gifted, we are not just recruiting against other fine universities for the prospect, but are recruiting against everyone for him. Oklahoma has nothing against guys with 4.4 speed and a 4.0 average, they just are more interested in the 4.4 than the 4.0. Duke, on the other hand, is recruiting against Oklahoma, Michigan, Florida State, Miami, USC, Ohio State, etc. . . for the ten guys in every high school class who have both. We don't get many and it is harder to win without them.

I do not disagree with you, but I do hope there are more than ten guys in every class with both. I feel we should be able to win enough recruits to win half of our games. In fact, I believe we can win half with the players we have now.

dukie8
11-24-2007, 10:47 PM
I do not disagree with you, but I do hope there are more than ten guys in every class with both. I feel we should be able to win enough recruits to win half of our games. In fact, I believe we can win half with the players we have now.

part of the problem (and i am not making it as an excuse) is that duke's general academic standards are off-the-charts so loosening them for the football team still keeps them at a level higher than that for most other schools' general student bodies. 200 points lower on the sats from the average duke student is still higher than the average sat just about everywhere else.

also, almost every player on the duke football team would not have gotten into duke but for the football scholly. it's not like we field a team of geniuses. it's like that everywhere -- including harvard, princeton and yale.

hughgs
11-24-2007, 10:50 PM
also, almost every player on the duke football team would not have gotten into duke but for the football scholly. it's not like we field a team of geniuses. it's like that everywhere -- including harvard, princeton and yale.

I hope you're going to back this statement up. Otherwise, it seems that this is exactly the kind of post that DBR is trying to avoid.

buddy
11-24-2007, 11:31 PM
While most of us would be happy with a football team that was 7-5 or 6-6, the fact is that such records are mediocre. When you aim for mediocrity, the result usually is failure. I believe that Duke needs to aim for excellence in football as it does in all sports, and indeed in all endeavors. When Fuqua was started around 20 years ago, Duke didn't just want a B-school, they wanted an excellent B-school. So it should be with football as well. As for the academics, I believe I saw a few years ago that Duke football players had average SATs of 1080 (under the old system), while the average in the ACC was 880. I am not advocating lowering the standards to the conference average, but a lot of football players get excluded in that 1080-880 gap. If a winning sports program adds to the richness of college life (and I believe it does), then the university should make every effort to assure that winning program. At the same time, Duke owes it to every student athlete admitted a commitment to provide all necessary assistance to assure graduation for those willing to make the effort.

dukediv2013
11-25-2007, 04:09 AM
If Duke starts now and tries hard enough... they may be able to snag Nick Saban from Alabama or Bob Huggins from WVU because they obviously don't care about keeping a contract! (Yes... I am aware that Huggins coaches basketball, but have you seen the thugs he recruits? Kenyon Martin would have been a solid Linebacker in the NFL!)

CatfiveCane
11-25-2007, 10:24 AM
I hope you're going to back this statement up. Otherwise, it seems that this is exactly the kind of post that DBR is trying to avoid.


You seriously think Duke football has the same academic requirements as the general student body? You think the same is true with Duke basketball?

Hey don't get me wrong, I think admitting a player because he's a great football player is just as legit as admitting a student who's great at math or science.

It is a known policy that Duke will admit 4-5 athletes per year who are way below their bottom baseline. As the what that baseline is, I'm not too sure. I'm sure its going to be higher than the NCAA sliding minimum.

tux
11-25-2007, 01:41 PM
By wider net, I meant recruiting-wise; i.e., we need to recruit nationally in order to find players who are both good football players and good students. (I realize you did not say we need to ONLY recruit regionally --- not trying to be argumentative or put words in your mouth...). I guess I just don't think the path to better players is to compete with UNC and State for local HS players; although I agree that a coach with local roots who could also recruit nationally would be the best of both worlds. Duke, IMO, has a national brand that is actually much stronger than its regional brand. Roof, or a new coach, has to leverage that advantage...

formerdukeathlete
11-25-2007, 02:40 PM
By wider net, I meant recruiting-wise; i.e., we need to recruit nationally in order to find players who are both good football players and good students. (I realize you did not say we need to ONLY recruit regionally --- not trying to be argumentative or put words in your mouth...). I guess I just don't think the path to better players is to compete with UNC and State for local HS players; although I agree that a coach with local roots who could also recruit nationally would be the best of both worlds. Duke, IMO, has a national brand that is actually much stronger than its regional brand. Roof, or a new coach, has to leverage that advantage...

gettin in requirements for football players have been relaxed significantly - already too much so, IMO.

someone posted that there were plenty of 3 to 5 star recruits who could get into Duke without football - I do not believe that. However, there are a number of 3 to 4 if not 5 star recruits who are good students and who would consider Duke for football because of Duke' reputation. This is the key.

In fact, there are a lot of 3 start recruits who satisfy the Ivy League's criteria, which varied slightly from school to school, and who would consider Duke for Football because of Duke's academic reputation.

Roof has not had that much success targeting these kinds of kinds. Rather, a lot of his recruits tend to fall within the now more lenient criteria which might not have worked under franks.

Oor 5th year tight end knocked it out of the park academically in high school Ben Patrick was a very good student in high school.

the answer is not to lower admissions criteria. Some are attending Duke right no who IMO should not. The answer is making a credible commitment to winning football games. Then the 6-5 tight end with 1300 boards, 3 - 4 star rated and being courted by Penn State, Ohio State, can decide to attend Duke for the education without having to deeply discount training for the NFL.

Devilsfan
11-25-2007, 03:46 PM
How about the $86,000 we wasted on our kicking game?

throatybeard
11-25-2007, 03:59 PM
Add an opening at Colorado State to the mix:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3127034

Devilsfan
11-25-2007, 04:04 PM
If we continue to improve, by say a win a year, we will be bowl eligible in 2012.

SoCalDukeFan
11-25-2007, 04:08 PM
Then
1. Roof is fired by 8:05 am Monday.
2. Someone with significant experience is hired.
3. The new coach is given a competitive salary and a competitive budget to hire assistants. The first job of the new coach will be to build a staff.

If Duke plays Mr. Nice Guy with Roof and takes time to make a decision, if Duke tries again to put a young guy in his first head job, if Duke tries to do on the cheap; then we will know that Duke is not serious about football.

SoCal

duke1981
11-25-2007, 04:49 PM
The best football game I attended this year was Wofford's upset of Appalachian State when ASU was ranked #1 in the FCS. The team is extremely well-coached, disciplined, etc. And they are currently in the quarterfinals of the FCS (formerly Div. 1-AA).

Take a look at their coach's bio:

http://athletics.wofford.edu/coaches.aspx?rc=1&

I believe he fits all the requirements that Duke is looking for.

hughgs
11-25-2007, 05:26 PM
You seriously think Duke football has the same academic requirements as the general student body? You think the same is true with Duke basketball?

Hey don't get me wrong, I think admitting a player because he's a great football player is just as legit as admitting a student who's great at math or science.

It is a known policy that Duke will admit 4-5 athletes per year who are way below their bottom baseline. As the what that baseline is, I'm not too sure. I'm sure its going to be higher than the NCAA sliding minimum.

Your argument is a straw-man. I never said or implied that the academic standards for football players was higher or lower than the general student body. That statement simply implies that football players are on the upper or lower edge of the acceptance curve. What I asked for was evidence that almost all football players would not be accepted to Duke, a statement that implies that almost all football players are below the minimum acceptable Duke standards.

I will certainly agree with you that a few football players are below our ill-defined minimum standard, but that is a long way from "almost all" football players.

So, my statement still stands. Where's evidence?

dukie8
11-25-2007, 05:58 PM
Your argument is a straw-man. I never said or implied that the academic standards for football players was higher or lower than the general student body. That statement simply implies that football players are on the upper or lower edge of the acceptance curve. What I asked for was evidence that almost all football players would not be accepted to Duke, a statement that implies that almost all football players are below the minimum acceptable Duke standards.

I will certainly agree with you that a few football players are below our ill-defined minimum standard, but that is a long way from "almost all" football players.

So, my statement still stands. Where's evidence?

this is a strawman argument. stating that almost all of the football players would not have been admitted but for the fact that the football team got them in does NOT imply that they are on some upper or lower edge of the acceptance curve (whatever that is). it means if they applied as regular students, they would not have been admitted.

when the team average sat hovers somewhere between 1000 and 1100, which is 300-400 points below the school's average, it doesn't take a quantum leap to understand that the average player is dramatically below the school average and many players are dramatically below even that low average. duke, by law, does not release sat scores for individual players -- just team averages -- so you have to deduce what is going on. yes, there are a few outliers that would have gotten in on their own (you probably can count them on 1 hand) but, for the most part, the players get admitted solely because of football. it doesn't mean that they won't do well at duke and it certainly doesn't mean that they won't do well after they leave duke (the list of successful former duke football players is very long) but it does mean that they never would have been admitted but for the football team. this isn't rocket science.

wxyz
11-25-2007, 07:25 PM
Taking a different view from most of the posts, I hope TR stays as coach.
The core problem with Duke football is that it has had a much lower budget than any of its competitors. The common factor among all the series of losing Duke football coaches is the Duke administration, which have chosen to low-ball football in order to have funds for many other sports. This choice has been unpleasant as to the football record, but it is rational and has provided opportunities for many, many other students. Remember, Duke voted against ACC expansion to include the football powers. It is only fitting that now those powers get to pay Duke via the ACC so that other Duke students have opportunities.

TR and the team have provided a great service to the university, and done so honorably and well. They have made Duke eligible for income from the ACC, especially the football contract, which has provided the financial base for numerous other non-revenue men's sports, and women's sports. They have done so without complaint, without significant academic or disciplinary issues, and generally represented the university well. They are decent, able people. In fact the teams has been better every year under TR's tenure, to the point where they are now in many games, even if they don't win.

Duke does not plan some kind of football major, looser student admission standards, or transferring funds from academic programs to the football program, so Duke is going to be like the low-budget team running a car at NASCAR, or the low-budget team in major-league baseball. In all such cases, the team may be profitable --- possibly very profitable --- for its owners, but its main achievement is going to be simply getting to compete against the big guys, not beating them very often.

Once one accepts the facts, the only question is what coach can deal with the situation with the most grace and enthusiasm. TR has my vote. Keep him. Otherwise Duke will simply rotate the deck chairs once again, with the same outcome.

Indoor66
11-25-2007, 07:31 PM
Taking a different view from most of the posts, I hope TR stays as coach.
The core problem with Duke football is that it has had a much lower budget than any of its competitors. The common factor among all the series of losing Duke football coaches is the Duke administration, which have chosen to low-ball football in order to have funds for many other sports. This choice has been unpleasant as to the football record, but it is rational and has provided opportunities for many, many other students. Remember, Duke voted against ACC expansion to include the football powers. It is only fitting that now those powers get to pay Duke via the ACC so that other Duke students have opportunities.

TR and the team have provided a great service to the university, and done so honorably and well. They have made Duke eligible for income from the ACC, especially the football contract, which has provided the financial base for numerous other non-revenue men's sports, and women's sports. They have done so without complaint, without significant academic or disciplinary issues, and generally represented the university well. They are decent, able people. In fact the teams has been better every year under TR's tenure, to the point where they are now in many games, even if they don't win.

Duke does not plan some kind of football major, looser student admission standards, or transferring funds from academic programs to the football program, so Duke is going to be like the low-budget team running a car at NASCAR, or the low-budget team in major-league baseball. In all such cases, the team may be profitable --- possibly very profitable --- for its owners, but its main achievement is going to be simply getting to compete against the big guys, not beating them very often.

Once one accepts the facts, the only question is what coach can deal with the situation with the most grace and enthusiasm. TR has my vote. Keep him. Otherwise Duke will simply rotate the deck chairs once again, with the same outcome.

I agree. I hope we retain Coach Roof and dedicate substantial resources to the program - with an aim to being more than competitive. I hope the purpose is to have a winning program that competes for the ACC championship on an annual basis.

wxyz
11-25-2007, 07:36 PM
I agree. I hope we retain Coach Roof and dedicate substantial resources to the program - with an aim to being more than competitive. I hope the purpose is to have a winning program that competes for the ACC championship on an annual basis.

I agree with you, too. If Duke should decide to put in the resources, TR et al can make the program work. To make that more specific, if the Duke football budget became equal to the FSU (or pick your school) football budget, Duke with TR would beat FSU with regularity.

hughgs
11-25-2007, 07:49 PM
this is a strawman argument. stating that almost all of the football players would not have been admitted but for the fact that the football team got them in does NOT imply that they are on some upper or lower edge of the acceptance curve (whatever that is). it means if they applied as regular students, they would not have been admitted.

Your conflating responses. My response was not to your argument but to CatfiveCane's mischaracterization of my argument.


when the team average sat hovers somewhere between 1000 and 1100, which is 300-400 points below the school's average, it doesn't take a quantum leap to understand that the average player is dramatically below the school average and many players are dramatically below even that low average. duke, by law, does not release sat scores for individual players -- just team averages -- so you have to deduce what is going on. yes, there are a few outliers that would have gotten in on their own (you probably can count them on 1 hand) but, for the most part, the players get admitted solely because of football. it doesn't mean that they won't do well at duke and it certainly doesn't mean that they won't do well after they leave duke (the list of successful former duke football players is very long) but it does mean that they never would have been admitted but for the football team. this isn't rocket science.

I agree with your assessment of the situation, but what I find a little presumptuous on your part is to infer that since that average of the SAT scores is below the average of the general student body that "almost all" football players never would have been admitted to Duke. Without a distribution of the players scores and the general student scores you have absolutely no idea whether it's true or not and I think that making that assumption is insulting to the football team.

It may not be rocket science to you but making leaps of logic such as this and stating them as facts doesn't reflect well on your analysis.

Duvall
11-25-2007, 07:51 PM
If Duke should decide to put in the resources, TR et al can make the program work. To make that more specific, if the Duke football budget became equal to the FSU (or pick your school) football budget, Duke with TR would beat FSU with regularity.

Let us not confuse adequate support with impossible pipe dreams.

Uncle Drew
11-25-2007, 07:52 PM
I agree with you, too. If Duke should decide to put in the resources, TR et al can make the program work. To make that more specific, if the Duke football budget became equal to the FSU (or pick your school) football budget, Duke with TR would beat FSU with regularity.



While I agree that Coach Roof should be given another year and Duke needs to focus more resources on football to compete at an ACC level. Saying with the same budget (which we all know Duke isn't going to spend anyway.) Duke would beat FSU or any other school with regularity is like strapping a V8 to a lawn mower and saying you're going to win the Indianapolis 500.


I hate Duke losing game after game, year after year as much as anyone. But someone has to lose and I don't see Ohio State, USC or Florida going 0-13 or 1-12 four straight years any time soon. If life were fair Duke and Prarrie View would be playing for the national championship next year for having to endure so many years of losing. I'm all for trying to turn things around and trying to reach the top of the mountain. Just realize that every great player Duke might get is a player some other school didn't get. (Another school with an established winning mentality and long CONTINUED history.) Unless you have some secret plan to pay several 5 star recruits to attend Duke (please don't as we're in enough of a mess without probation.) whomever the coach is has to be able to sign them to a letter of intent some other way.

wxyz
11-25-2007, 09:07 PM
Let us not confuse adequate support with impossible pipe dreams.

I agree that having a football budget equal to that of FSU is not possible and intended that only as an extreme comparison. Still, if we expect to compete with UNC, we have to have a budget comparable to UNC. Even WFU has a substantially larger football budget, it seems to me, although it is hard to know exactly. If we want to continue to have the lowest football budget, we have to be willing to accept losing most of the time, and hope to do so with dignity and gracefulness, as we have done this year. Certainly it is very frustrating for the team and fans, but maybe this is the overall best plan for Duke, all sports considered. In any event it is the plan that successive Duke administrations have chosen, and that is not going to change because a few MBA students did a project. Still, considering the relative football budgets at the schools in the ACC, I think the Duke team under TR has done amazingly well.

wxyz
11-25-2007, 09:10 PM
While I agree that Coach Roof should be given another year and Duke needs to focus more resources on football to compete at an ACC level. Saying with the same budget (which we all know Duke isn't going to spend anyway.) Duke would beat FSU or any other school with regularity is like strapping a V8 to a lawn mower and saying you're going to win the Indianapolis 500. ...

Historically speaking, a tractor with a big engine almost won at Indianapolis some years back, I've been told.

dukie8
11-25-2007, 09:52 PM
Your conflating responses. My response was not to your argument but to CatfiveCane's mischaracterization of my argument.



I agree with your assessment of the situation, but what I find a little presumptuous on your part is to infer that since that average of the SAT scores is below the average of the general student body that "almost all" football players never would have been admitted to Duke. Without a distribution of the players scores and the general student scores you have absolutely no idea whether it's true or not and I think that making that assumption is insulting to the football team.

It may not be rocket science to you but making leaps of logic such as this and stating them as facts doesn't reflect well on your analysis.

it's not presumptuous on my part -- just reality. do you not believe that their average sat is in the 1000s? if so, then what do yo u believe it is? i wasn't aware that facing reality is "insulting." would you prefer duke to field a football team solely with students who were admitted independent of the football team? if duke were forced to do that, assuming that duke could find 85 guys crazy enough to go out there, they would be run off the field every single game by the end of the 1st quarter.

i don't think you quite understand how low a 1050 average is and how off that is from what it takes to get admitted without football (particularly with the sats rescaled so 1000 is the average). i was an athlete at duke (granted it was a long time ago) and knew a thing or 2 about what was going on with athletes. there actually was a guy in my high school class who was on the football team and to characterize him as the stereotypical stupid jock in high school would have been a complement. quite honestly, it was a disgrace that duke admitted him and he barely saw the field in 5 years.

you make it sound like the football average is just a little bit lower than the overall average -- it is multiple standard deviations away from the overall average. we are talking about students who would be immediately rejected but for football. so let's hear some names of players who would have been admitted without football. when there is someone, like a crawford palmer, the school repeatedly advertises the fact. i assume that there are several on the team right now but wouldn't be surprised if there are none.

grimbogey
11-25-2007, 10:41 PM
I know that some have mentioned Gus Malzhan as a potential target, but instead of taking a HC flyer on a guy who has only coached in college for two seasons, why not go for Tulsa's top man himself—Todd Graham.

1) He's proven at an academic school...he took a 1-11 Rice team to 6 wins and that school's first bowl appearance since 1960 in his first season. Furthermore, he hasn't stopped at Tulsa - he's 9-3 this season and headed to the C-USA title game.

2) While at Rice, he spearheaded a fundraising effort that collected $5.5 million in a matter of months for stadium renovations of the school's outdated facilities and stadium (sounds familiar to what we need)

3) And as many of you have cited that a coach using Duke as a stepping stone would actually be a good thing, Graham has already shown the propensity, for better or worse, to do just that. Days after signing a contract extension and a raise at Rice, Graham jumped ship for Tulsa.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/college/rice/5315791.html

In short, this guy wins. Whether he would leave us after a few years or not, his track record seems to show that he would be attracted to an opportunity to jump to the greener pastures of a BCS-conference coaching job, and his experience at Rice would be an asset in a job that would have similar academic constraints.

He's being paid 1.1 mil right now by Tulsa, which may already be above what Duke would be willing to pay. But all in all, this guy would win for us—something we really shouldn't put a price on.

hughgs
11-26-2007, 06:38 AM
this is a strawman argument. stating that almost all of the football players would not have been admitted but for the fact that the football team got them in does NOT imply that they are on some upper or lower edge of the acceptance curve (whatever that is). it means if they applied as regular students, they would not have been admitted.

when the team average sat hovers somewhere between 1000 and 1100, which is 300-400 points below the school's average, it doesn't take a quantum leap to understand that the average player is dramatically below the school average and many players are dramatically below even that low average. duke, by law, does not release sat scores for individual players -- just team averages -- so you have to deduce what is going on. yes, there are a few outliers that would have gotten in on their own (you probably can count them on 1 hand) but, for the most part, the players get admitted solely because of football. it doesn't mean that they won't do well at duke and it certainly doesn't mean that they won't do well after they leave duke (the list of successful former duke football players is very long) but it does mean that they never would have been admitted but for the football team. this isn't rocket science.


it's not presumptuous on my part -- just reality. do you not believe that their average sat is in the 1000s? if so, then what do yo u believe it is? i wasn't aware that facing reality is "insulting." would you prefer duke to field a football team solely with students who were admitted independent of the football team? if duke were forced to do that, assuming that duke could find 85 guys crazy enough to go out there, they would be run off the field every single game by the end of the 1st quarter.

i don't think you quite understand how low a 1050 average is and how off that is from what it takes to get admitted without football (particularly with the sats rescaled so 1000 is the average). i was an athlete at duke (granted it was a long time ago) and knew a thing or 2 about what was going on with athletes. there actually was a guy in my high school class who was on the football team and to characterize him as the stereotypical stupid jock in high school would have been a complement. quite honestly, it was a disgrace that duke admitted him and he barely saw the field in 5 years.

you make it sound like the football average is just a little bit lower than the overall average -- it is multiple standard deviations away from the overall average. we are talking about students who would be immediately rejected but for football. so let's hear some names of players who would have been admitted without football. when there is someone, like a crawford palmer, the school repeatedly advertises the fact. i assume that there are several on the team right now but wouldn't be surprised if there are none.

As I said, I agree with assessment of the situation. However, you are making huge leaps of logic to come to your conclusions without having any of the data to back them up. And while, you are certainly entitled to make those leaps, to state them as facts is insulting to the football team.

Can you honestly say that you would make your argument to any football player to his face? If you would, don't you think that that's being a little insulting?

dukie8
11-26-2007, 07:00 AM
As I said, I agree with assessment of the situation. However, you are making huge leaps of logic to come to your conclusions without having any of the data to back them up. And while, you are certainly entitled to make those leaps, to state them as facts is insulting to the football team.

Can you honestly say that you would make your argument to any football player to his face? If you would, don't you think that that's being a little insulting?

how is an average sat in the mid 1000s not any data (it varies a little from year to year)? if you want to take your average football player with a 1050 on his sats, i would be more than happy to tell him to his face that he would not have been admitted to duke but for football. if he disagreed, he would be simply delusional.

hughgs
11-26-2007, 07:49 AM
how is an average sat in the mid 1000s not any data (it varies a little from year to year)? if you want to take your average football player with a 1050 on his sats, i would be more than happy to tell him to his face that he would not have been admitted to duke but for football. if he disagreed, he would be simply delusional.

While average SAT score is some data, to extrapolate your conclusions from that small piece of data and state them as facts is where I disagree.

And you don't find that saying something like that to someone is a little insulting? Just because it's true doesn't make it the right thing to say.

Bluedawg
11-26-2007, 07:56 AM
Yes, Ohio has a deeper, better HS football pool than both of the Carolinas (and really every state outside of Florida, California and Texas) but Ohio State does have local competition to deal with--Michigan, Michigan State, Penn State, and national programs seeking Ohio players, especially Notre Dame. I think one of the reasons Michigan has declined in the Jim Tressel era is that it no longer gets the top-flight Ohio players that it did before (in the recent HBO documentary on the OSU-Michigan rivalry, they noted how important Ohio HS football has been to the Wolverine's success).

My views on the coaching search come from a practical view of things. If casting a wider net means going for a big national name, it's my belief that Duke won't snag someone who will impress. It's just not going to happen, IMO, and that's okay. But, if by wider net you mean looking outside the region for a more under-the-radar coach, I absolutely agree. I do think, however, that the school should at least look at regional coaches with proven success who have connections to regional high schools.

I think the worst thing Duke can do is go for a former NFL coach--head or coordinator. In the NFL it's about gameplanning and not teaching, and the inability to teach 18-year olds how to play is the demise of most coaches who make that move. Putting aside that Weis wasn't even a good coordinator in the NFL, he's a terrible college coach because he can't teach football.

One state that is overlooked by the media, but not the coaches, is Georgia. Their HS pool is just as rich and talented.

Bluedawg
11-26-2007, 08:05 AM
It is the myth of those who cannot accept reality that "the administration" is somehow responsible for the fate of the football program. Of course, it's true in the sense that the administration is unwilling to make Duke the Oklahoma of the East (the Oklahoma president has been quoted as saying he's "building a university the football team will be proud of"). What should the administration at Duke do? We built a state of the art training facility and locker room for the team and we're planning a remake of Wallace Wade (which will make it a more pleasant place to watch a loss but will have absolutely no impact on recruiting because it will still be half empty and inferior to the stadiums of most of the schools against which we might dream of recruiting). We might replace Ted Roof (a spectacularly decent guy who I hope we keep), but even if we hired the football equivalent of Coach K, football is different -- he won't stay -- because there will always be better places to go in football (which will never be true in Basketball). Should we lower the admission standards and make Duke more like Wake Forest so we can win a few football games. Please. Kill me first.

Then that should change. Duke should make football the best place to coach in America. They did it for BBall, so why not.

Bluedawg
11-26-2007, 08:07 AM
Does anybody think that we would take a chance with George O'Leary? I am not sure that he would take the job, because he is in a pretty good position at Central Florida, but it would be a move back to a BCS conference. I know that he has the issue with the resume in his past, but I think that was blown out of proportion, and he has served his penalty by missing out on Notre Dame and being banished to Cent. Fla. in Conf. USA.

His positives are the fact that he has proven that he can win in the ACC, he has coached at a school that claims to have high academic standards, and he coaches a very disciplined style of football, but is creative on offense, as evidenced by the success he had with Joe Hamilton.

I think this hire would have a pretty high splash factor, but again, who knows if he would take it. I am also hearing from a lot of Tech alums that they would like to have him back to take Chan Gailey's place.

Steve Logan!

Bluedawg
11-26-2007, 08:15 AM
Do you believe only academically inferior players win games?
Duke has had more highly ranked recruiting classes than Wake in 2004 (25 spots better), 2005 (19 spots better), 2006 (19 spots better), 2007 (11 spots better), 2008 (1 spot better). Wake was better in 2003 by 52 spots ouch [this is data posted by dukie8 earlier in this thread].

Coaching at all levels from strength & conditioning to the head coach matters period.

I reject that academic requirements have to be decreased significantly if at all. There at plenty of 3, 4 and 5 star recruits that could get into Duke without football if they were so inclined. Maybe we have to lower them to be in the BCS hunt, but I think most here would be happy to play win ½ of our games.

THANK YOU! I am so tired of reading that football players have to be dumb to be good. That is by far one of the most ridiculous things I've heard.

Bluedawg
11-26-2007, 08:22 AM
While most of us would be happy with a football team that was 7-5 or 6-6, the fact is that such records are mediocre. When you aim for mediocrity, the result usually is failure. I believe that Duke needs to aim for excellence in football as it does in all sports, and indeed in all endeavors. When Fuqua was started around 20 years ago, Duke didn't just want a B-school, they wanted an excellent B-school. So it should be with football as well. As for the academics, I believe I saw a few years ago that Duke football players had average SATs of 1080 (under the old system), while the average in the ACC was 880. I am not advocating lowering the standards to the conference average, but a lot of football players get excluded in that 1080-880 gap. If a winning sports program adds to the richness of college life (and I believe it does), then the university should make every effort to assure that winning program. At the same time, Duke owes it to every student athlete admitted a commitment to provide all necessary assistance to assure graduation for those willing to make the effort.


"Duke should not play a sport where the goal is to be competitive. We should field teams only if the goal is to win and win with class and dignity. And if that isn't [the goal] we shouldn't field that team.

"... Duke should be competing for championships."

Very well put, wasn't it... (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/792718.html)

Duvall
11-26-2007, 08:24 AM
Then that should change. Duke should make football the best place to coach in America. They did it for BBall, so why not.

Duke isn't the best place in the country to coach basketball. It's just been fortunate enough to have the best coach.

Bluedawg
11-26-2007, 08:37 AM
Then
1. Roof is fired by 8:05 am Monday.
2. Someone with significant experience is hired.
3. The new coach is given a competitive salary and a competitive budget to hire assistants. The first job of the new coach will be to build a staff.

If Duke plays Mr. Nice Guy with Roof and takes time to make a decision, if Duke tries again to put a young guy in his first head job, if Duke tries to do on the cheap; then we will know that Duke is not serious about football.

SoCal

I could not disagree more. I know I've suggested a few names to replace TR, because i think it is a done deal and the only holdup is the wording and timing of the announcement.

However, i think he should be given one more year.

1 - The players still support him. This is the biggest part of fielding a winning team

2 - He said that in 07 they could be competitive, and regardless of the record in most of the games they were. i know people will line up to tell me I'm wrong here but I'm not, in most of the games they were.

3 - he said that he has a 5 year plan and in 08 Duke will be bowl eligible, well, give him the chance to prove it. One of duke's biggest problems is that coaches stay an average of 4.5 years so they never get to complete their work. Fred Goldsmith said once that he was fired one year too soon, that what he had worked toward would have come together in his 5th year if he had been allowed to stay. Give coach Roof that 5th year.

gvtucker
11-26-2007, 08:39 AM
how is an average sat in the mid 1000s not any data (it varies a little from year to year)? if you want to take your average football player with a 1050 on his sats, i would be more than happy to tell him to his face that he would not have been admitted to duke but for football. if he disagreed, he would be simply delusional.

I would argue that if you take away the single best qualification of most ANY Duke student, that student would likely not be admitted.

So why single out the football players?

formerdukeathlete
11-26-2007, 10:01 AM
I would argue that if you take away the single best qualification of most ANY Duke student, that student would likely not be admitted.

So why single out the football players?

Dukie 8,

When I was involved with the DAAAC, the average SAT for all affirmative action admitted applicants was a bit over 1100. The football team used to have a fairly hard and fast 1000 cut off - some exceptions were made, and the football team average was around 1100, maybe 10 points shy. So, the football team had players whose sats were maybe 100-150 lower than the rest of the student body, this was all in the same ball park.

I believe Nan imposed team average targets, which I basically agree with.

Franks brought in some highly rated 3 to 4 star players who also had high SATs - Stefanow, Patrick, right in there with the rest of the student population, and others - including our starting fullback in 2003 who went onto med school.

A stronger commitment to football, ironically, may mean that the average sat for the football team can go up. We can land more Stefanow's who have bigger options, but who may want to go to med school or a top b school some day. Let's not forget our law school.

This is the irony. Folks say you have to lower admissions requirements to win, yet when you win you may attract more top students.

Bluedawg
11-26-2007, 10:44 AM
Dukie 8,

When I was involved with the DAAAC, the average SAT for all affirmative action admitted applicants was a bit over 1100. The football team used to have a fairly hard and fast 1000 cut off - some exceptions were made, and the football team average was around 1100, maybe 10 points shy. So, the football team had players whose sats were maybe 100-150 lower than the rest of the student body, this was all in the same ball park.

I believe Nan imposed team average targets, which I basically agree with.

Franks brought in some highly rated 3 to 4 star players who also had high SATs - Stefanow, Patrick, right in there with the rest of the student population, and others - including our starting fullback in 2003 who went onto med school.

A stronger commitment to football, ironically, may mean that the average sat for the football team can go up. We can land more Stefanow's who have bigger options, but who may want to go to med school or a top b school some day. Let's not forget our law school.

This is the irony. Folks say you have to lower admissions requirements to win, yet when you win you may attract more top students.

DAAAC? i probably should know what it stands for.

SoCalDukeFan
11-26-2007, 11:39 AM
I could not disagree more. I know I've suggested a few names to replace TR, because i think it is a done deal and the only holdup is the wording and timing of the announcement.

However, i think he should be given one more year.

1 - The players still support him. This is the biggest part of fielding a winning team

2 - He said that in 07 they could be competitive, and regardless of the record in most of the games they were. i know people will line up to tell me I'm wrong here but I'm not, in most of the games they were.

3 - he said that he has a 5 year plan and in 08 Duke will be bowl eligible, well, give him the chance to prove it. One of duke's biggest problems is that coaches stay an average of 4.5 years so they never get to complete their work. Fred Goldsmith said once that he was fired one year too soon, that what he had worked toward would have come together in his 5th year if he had been allowed to stay. Give coach Roof that 5th year.

I am sure that Roof is a great guy. I would probably love it if he were my uncle, brother, cousin, friend or neighbor. I am also sure that the players like him and respect him. However the fact is that he has been unable to win football games. In my opinion he has not made or been able to make the hard decisions necessary to win games.

We were close in several games in the 2006 season. Games we may have won with a better kicking game. Roof gives the special teams coach another job on his staff and hires a guy with no special experience to be the coordinator. He does not recruit a quality kicker. Result - in 2007 we were 3 for 10 in field goals and again had games we might have won with a better kicking game. I think that winning coaches are not replacing their field goal kicker in overtime of the last game of the year unless there special circumstances such as injury.

I think that the biggest parts of having a winning team are quality players and coaching STAFF. An experienced coach can either bring with him his staff or hire assistants based on his considerable reach. Roof did not have his own staff to bring with him, did not have reach, and probably did not have an adequate budget to hire top assistants.

Do you honestly think that Duke under Ted Roof would be bowl eligible next year?

SoCal

DukeDude
11-26-2007, 11:42 AM
ESPN reporting Roof was fired.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3128003

RPS
11-26-2007, 12:16 PM
This hire will be crucial to the future of Duke football. Can we honestly seek championship-level football and become at least competitive as a by-product? I hope so and believe so. What I'd do follows.

1. Hire a successful college head coach. I don't think a "name" is important and assume that we won't be able to attract a name at any price. The Duke job is considered "death" to most coaches. But a successful college head coach should be attainable at the right price (Tressel and Grobe should be our models). Part of this process will be paying what is necessary to get an excellent coach and an excellent staff.

2. Demand academic accountability. I think this discussion has been too focused upon standards and not enough upon performance. If Wake (for example) has lowered standards as many allege, they have not lowered accountability because graduation rates there are still exceptionally high.

3. Commit to a long-term plan that includes red-shirting across-the-board. For us to compete with fewer four and five-star recruits, we'll need the added strength, maturity and depth that consistent redshirting allows. Doing so will delay success, but increase our chances of getting it. I don't think it a coincidence that Grobe atarted winning in his fifth year -- it now looks like he will be able to win consistently with recruiting classes ranked similarly to Duke's.

4. Build a system and recruit to it. I used to think we needed a gimmic, but Grobe's success has convinced me that even a pretty standard system can work if a plan is put in place, recruited to and consistently executed by mature and intelligent players.

5. Commit to the program. In my experience at Duke (which dates back to the 70s), we have never given football the support it needs to be successful. If we're going to stay in the ACC (and I think we should), football is a requirement. I see no reason to keep it and and suck at it, so let's give it the support it needs (financial, administrative, academic, etc.) to be successful.

Lavabe
11-26-2007, 12:27 PM
ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3127998) is also reporting that GTech's Chan Gailey has been fired.
Cheers,
Lavabe

Highlander
11-26-2007, 12:29 PM
One interesting note is when you said he can't be a unc grad, and on the surface I would certainly agree. But one of the names mentioned is Rod Broadway, currently the coach at Grambling and formerly at NCCU, has been a Duke assistant under 2 head coaches and is actually a unc alum. I think he merits consideration.

For the record, Duke President Terry Sanford was a UNC grad. He turned out OK...

jjasper0729
11-26-2007, 12:41 PM
2. Demand academic accountability. I think this discussion has been too focused upon standards and not enough upon performance. If Wake (for example) has lowered standards as many allege, they have not lowered accountability because graduation rates there are still exceptionally high.

This is the key thing. The administration can let in those that might be extreme cases as long as the support staff is in place to make sure they graduate and keep up the academic tradition. I believe (I have heard from people that are truly in the know, some of whom post here) that the 5 year plan includes an emphasis on expanding the academic support role. I think the K-center for academics is part of this as it gives some physical space for it and should allow Duke to have more than 3 academic support staff members for the football team.

now for my opinions:

I don't know that Steve Logan is the answer. I know he'll command a lot of money and while we should have a higher salary for the coach and his staff, it probably doens't need to be what Logan is purportedly looking for (based on his comments during the unc/ncsu searches).

Definitely though, someone needs to be hired that has head coaching experience and the ability to have staff continuity. Comparing our situation to Wakes, the underlying theme of Wake's success is that most of Grobe's assistants are still there after his initial hire. We've had 3 different O-Coordinators in the last 3 years.

Tressel and Grobe came from I-AA and it could behoove Duke to look that route rather than go for a splash with a name only. Rumors have Schottenheimer... good Lord I hope not.

Craig Bohl has HC experience at ND State. The same goes for the coach at Ga. Southern. Maybe also, the coach at Wofford.

I would LOVE to get someone to come to Duke, turn it around and stay a long time. Unfortunately, until it's considered stable, it won't turn out that way. it will be a death blow to a career if the losing continues (like vandy was) or a stepping stone job for a while if someone can come in and turn it around to go on to bigger and better things. BUT, if things can turn around, people may start to look at it as a destination.

The key thing is the support from the administration and the fans. I try to go to as many games as possible. I take my son with me and have for the last 7 years (since he was born).

As far as the facilities. Yes, it's a mess, but I'd go out on a limb and say that inside the wall of the stadium itself, it's okay. The concourse area needs to be improved drastically (hide the murray building with some trees, build those concession plazas, add functional restrooms) and maybe put in some club type seating at the top of the stands somehow. The only thing I hate about the actual stadium (inside the walls) is the flight of steps (hurts when you sit way down in the bowl and want to go back up for something), but I'm old now so I'll deal.

Anyway, I hate to see Roof go, but everything needs to be laid out and get someone here that is committed to winning (like Coach K said) and that has the support of everyone from the top down, including the students and fans.

Duvall
11-26-2007, 12:54 PM
5. Commit to the program. In my experience at Duke (which dates back to the 70s), we have never given football the support it needs to be successful. If we're going to stay in the ACC (and I think we should), football is a requirement. I see no reason to keep it and and suck at it, so let's give it the support it needs (financial, administrative, academic, etc.) to be successful.

Well, I can think of one reason. Does anyone have a sense of how much this support is going to cost, and where the money will be coming from?

ehdg
11-26-2007, 01:02 PM
I'm probably in the minority here but I really think we should have least given Coach Roof one more year!! He'd really done enormous things to improve our program with the type of students/players he was brining in. From where he took over the program from Franks it was an utter failure and the the quality of players we had we're very low end football wise. It takes time and I really thing he was close specially with how many close games we where in this year. Plus I never saw this team quit on him as they did on Franks. I also think our administration needs to show more support to our football program and not just with the facilities. Coach Roof is a good man and was I think on the right track to improving our team.

I'm worried we are on this 4 year cycle again. Every 4 years we fire our coach and bring in a new guy and start all over. Things are rosey for a season or two and then folks get fustrated and start calling for his head. This is now the way to improve a program long term. We need to stick with a man more then 3/4 years and give him time to instill his plan and bring in his kind of players. With the team we have now which is very young and has gained much experience who ever we bring in to replace Roof will be in a much better position then Roof was ever in. Our cup boad is in much better shape today then it was 4 years ago. Granted Roof's record isn't what it should be but I honestly believe that next season we're going to be very thankful for what Roof did. Here's wishing Coach Roof all the best as he is a good, decent and honorable man!!

I just honestly hope the final decision on our next higher is left up to our AD. I have absolutely no faith in Joe Alleva. I think he is a major contributor to our problems and also needs to be replaced. But we all know that isn't going to happen since he got an extention this past season. :(

Bluedawg
11-26-2007, 01:09 PM
I am sure that Roof is a great guy. I would probably love it if he were my uncle, brother, cousin, friend or neighbor. I am also sure that the players like him and respect him. However the fact is that he has been unable to win football games. In my opinion he has not made or been able to make the hard decisions necessary to win games.

We were close in several games in the 2006 season. Games we may have won with a better kicking game. Roof gives the special teams coach another job on his staff and hires a guy with no special experience to be the coordinator. He does not recruit a quality kicker. Result - in 2007 we were 3 for 10 in field goals and again had games we might have won with a better kicking game. I think that winning coaches are not replacing their field goal kicker in overtime of the last game of the year unless there special circumstances such as injury.

I think that the biggest parts of having a winning team are quality players and coaching STAFF. An experienced coach can either bring with him his staff or hire assistants based on his considerable reach. Roof did not have his own staff to bring with him, did not have reach, and probably did not have an adequate budget to hire top assistants.

Do you honestly think that Duke under Ted Roof would be bowl eligible next year?

SoCal

I've said all along that I think strength and conditioning has been their biggest weakness this year. That needs to be worked on. They will be getting a 2 star kicker next year, their second weakness. The Third weakness is the run game.

If two of three plays had gone differently in 5 of their 12 games then they would be this year. I put fatigue as a major factor of those plays going against them. So yes, I think they could have.

But the press to announce his removal is a 2:00, so it’s a moot point.

RPS
11-26-2007, 01:21 PM
Does anyone have a sense of how much this support is going to cost...?A lot. But a successful football program pays for itself (and then some, typically), not to mention the ancillary benefits to the university of an excellent program. Recall how our move up the college rankings corresponds to to our hoops success -- those rankings are largely based upon yield, and lots of talented kids want to go to schools with successful sports programs. Moreover, as we've seen over the years with basketball, a successful sports program also drives alumni giving.


...and where the money will be coming from?Does anyone doubt we have it? Assuming we do and that a successful program at least pays for itself (and think those are givens), we're only looking at what is essentially a loan anyway.

killerleft
11-26-2007, 01:27 PM
I strongly disagree with jjasper that Duke needs to find someone more committed to winning football than Roof. What Duke will get, hopefully, is someone just as committed to winning as Roof. If Duke invests it's part (money and support), then that coach will have a fighting chance to change Duke's fortunes.

Could Roof have done the job with the support the new coach will get? We'll never know.

mapei
11-26-2007, 01:33 PM
I'm probably in the minority here but I really think we should have least given Coach Roof one more year!! . . .
I'm worried we are on this 4 year cycle again. Every 4 years we fire our coach and bring in a new guy and start all over. Things are rosey for a season or two and then folks get fustrated and start calling for his head. This is now the way to improve a program long term. We need to stick with a man more then 3/4 years and give him time to instill his plan and bring in his kind of players.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but the national median tenure for a D1 football coach is about 5 years. They stay longer if they win.

I can't find my source for this, but I did some research on it about a year ago when we were having this discussion and found an academic study that ran data analysis on all the programs in D1. So turnover after 4 years, especially in the context of repeated losing seasons, is by no means exceptional. We remember the coaches who stay at their schools longer in part because of their success.

jipops
11-26-2007, 01:40 PM
While replacing Roof is what I believe a correct move, it seems that he shouldn't be the only one taking the fall. Seems like Alleva should atleast be joining him. This isn't the same as Amato or Bunting needing to be replaced at State and UNC. This needs to be a complete overhaul in infrastructure and philosophy, not just another try at another head coach. Hopefully the administration isn't just repeating the same steps it has already done for the past decade or so.

rockymtn devil
11-26-2007, 01:47 PM
The front page note on the firing states that, in the view of the DBR owners, Roof should not have been fired for no other reason than his recruiting classes weren't able to mature (if I've misread this, my apologies). I also get the sense that there are at least several on the boards that feel the same way. To that I'll make two points.

First, how much recruiting class maturity does a coach need? Ted Roof was the head coach at Duke for 4 full seasons. That means that every single player on that team outside of 5th-year seniors is a Ted Roof recruit. Every upper classmen is a Ted Roof recruit. In other words, next year's team (given a full 5 years to "mature") will look no different than this year's. It will have a full slate of players recruited by Ted Roof, just like he had this year.

Second, even if we assume the recruiting does need to mature, Coach Roof never really showed that he was an able head football coach. The team often came out uninspired, and the game management was poor (as recently as this weekend, which said to me that Roof wasn't really in tune with his team). Roof is a defensive coach and yet, with a defense of his players, Duke is 97th in the NCAA in total defense.

At the end of the day Duke made the right move. Coach Roof wasn't going to win at Duke and the lack progress in the win column over four years is proof of that. Although a fine defensive coach, he never showed any signs of being a solid head coach--at least not yet in his career.

Bluedog
11-26-2007, 01:48 PM
They will be getting a 2 star kicker next year, their second weakness.

A 2 star kicker is going to improve our kicking weakness? Our current kicker (Joe Surgan) is a 4 star recruit, (Link (http://duke.scout.com/a.z?s=167&p=9&c=4&pid=20&yr=2005)) so I don't see how a 2 star recruit is an improvement.

Duvall
11-26-2007, 01:53 PM
A 2 star kicker is going to improve our kicking weakness? Our current kicker (Joe Surgan) is a 4 star recruit, (Link (http://duke.scout.com/a.z?s=167&p=9&c=4&pid=20&yr=2005)) so I don't see how a 2 star recruit is an improvement.

Depends on whether he can kick.

jjasper0729
11-26-2007, 01:54 PM
I strongly disagree with jjasper that Duke needs to find someone more committed to winning football than Roof. What Duke will get, hopefully, is someone just as committed to winning as Roof. If Duke invests it's part (money and support), then that coach will have a fighting chance to change Duke's fortunes.

Could Roof have done the job with the support the new coach will get? We'll never know.

I didn't mean to imply that roof is/was not committed to winning. I wanted to convey that whomever comes in needs to be committed to winning (as Coach K described it). I didn't want to imply that Roof wasn't. The commitment I was referring to also goes for those above Roof's head in the athletic and academic administrations. I have seen up close how committed roof is to his players and this team through the years he's been here. I would be the first to agree that he's been hamstrung from the outset.

RPS
11-26-2007, 02:00 PM
A 2 star kicker is going to improve our kicking weakness? Our current kicker (Joe Surgan) is a 4 star recruit, (Link (http://duke.scout.com/a.z?s=167&p=9&c=4&pid=20&yr=2005)) so I don't see how a 2 star recruit is an improvement.Without commenting upon either player individually, the recruiting services are notoriously poor with regard to kickers and punters.

Genedoc
11-26-2007, 02:02 PM
I'm probably in the minority here but I really think we should have least given Coach Roof one more year!! He'd really done enormous things to improve our program with the type of students/players he was brining in. From where he took over the program from Franks it was an utter failure and the the quality of players we had we're very low end football wise. It takes time and I really thing he was close specially with how many close games we where in this year. Plus I never saw this team quit on him as they did on Franks. I also think our administration needs to show more support to our football program and not just with the facilities. Coach Roof is a good man and was I think on the right track to improving our team.

I'm worried we are on this 4 year cycle again. Every 4 years we fire our coach and bring in a new guy and start all over. Things are rosey for a season or two and then folks get fustrated and start calling for his head. This is now the way to improve a program long term. We need to stick with a man more then 3/4 years and give him time to instill his plan and bring in his kind of players. With the team we have now which is very young and has gained much experience who ever we bring in to replace Roof will be in a much better position then Roof was ever in. Our cup boad is in much better shape today then it was 4 years ago. Granted Roof's record isn't what it should be but I honestly believe that next season we're going to be very thankful for what Roof did. Here's wishing Coach Roof all the best as he is a good, decent and honorable man!!

I just honestly hope the final decision on our next higher is left up to our AD. I have absolutely no faith in Joe Alleva. I think he is a major contributor to our problems and also needs to be replaced. But we all know that isn't going to happen since he got an extention this past season. :(

Really? Pretty sure his record is nearly identical to Carl Franks. How can exactly the same performance over the same time frame represent "enormous improvement?"

It doesn't take 4 years to determine whether or not a guy can coach. There were enough egregious errors to indicate that Ted did not know how to coach. I'm sure he's a wonderful person, but he was not the right man for the job here.

Bluedog
11-26-2007, 02:05 PM
Depends on whether he can kick.

Yep, I can't argue with that. My point was merely to say that saying somebody is a two-star recruit doesn't mean he is a good kicker. We won't know til he shows up.

Duvall
11-26-2007, 02:08 PM
Yep, I can't argue with that. My point was merely to say that saying somebody is a two-star recruit doesn't mean he is a good kicker. We won't know til he shows up.

Bear in mind, he doesn't have to be a good kicker to upgrade Duke's kicking game. A mediocre kicker would be a vast improvement.

Highlander
11-26-2007, 02:10 PM
Ted Roof fired.

Joe Alleva:
"Following several conversations between Coach Roof and myself over the past two days, I have decided to move in a different direction with our football program," Alleva said. "Coach Roof embodies everything that Duke represents and his commitment to this University and his job was unwavering. He is an outstanding family man, a man of great integrity, and among the classiest individuals with whom I have worked. I truly appreciate his service to Duke and how he represented himself, his family and this school. That is why this decision was so difficult.

"However, after our annual evaluation of the program, I believe that we need to make a change based on the results we were seeing on the field each week. Over the past several years, we have made the commitment to upgrading our football program and we will continue to do so. Our ultimate goal for football, as with all of our programs, is to pursue and achieve excellence. We are taking the proper steps to see that will happen. We must win in football at Duke, while maintaining our deepest commitment to the educational values of the institution."

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22672&SPID=1843
&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1326719

Duvall
11-26-2007, 02:28 PM
A lot. But a successful football program pays for itself (and then some, typically), not to mention the ancillary benefits to the university of an excellent program. Recall how our move up the college rankings corresponds to to our hoops success -- those rankings are largely based upon yield, and lots of talented kids want to go to schools with successful sports programs. Moreover, as we've seen over the years with basketball, a successful sports program also drives alumni giving.

I'm not sure that's the case - Duke's move up the college ranking actually preceded its success under Coach K.


Does anyone doubt we have it?

*Does* Duke have the money? As I recall, the athletic department was typically breaking even in most years, and now we're talking about a major increase in annual spending, plus some huge one-time expenditures for renovating Wallace Wade.


Assuming we do and that a successful program at least pays for itself (and think those are givens), we're only looking at what is essentially a loan anyway.

That kind of thinking gets businesses into bankruptcy. As I recall, many football programs lose money, even successful ones.

yuedana1
11-26-2007, 02:43 PM
george o'leary. maybe he could win at duke.

BamaBlueDevil
11-26-2007, 02:55 PM
So. Miss. apparently has fired Jeff Bower. The guy has done a great job while competing with SEC programs for talent. He's a winner and Duke should give him a long look. Plus, Bret Farve may take in some games now and then...

Bluedawg
11-26-2007, 02:57 PM
A 2 star kicker is going to improve our kicking weakness? Our current kicker (Joe Surgan) is a 4 star recruit, (Link (http://duke.scout.com/a.z?s=167&p=9&c=4&pid=20&yr=2005)) so I don't see how a 2 star recruit is an improvement.

Joe was an exception to the rule. That dog won't hunt...sorry

Bluedawg
11-26-2007, 03:05 PM
So. Miss. apparently has fired Jeff Bower. The guy has done a great job while competing with SEC programs for talent. He's a winner and Duke should give him a long look. Plus, Bret Farve may take in some games now and then...


Do we really want to recycle fired coaches...?

blazindw
11-26-2007, 03:07 PM
this is a strawman argument. stating that almost all of the football players would not have been admitted but for the fact that the football team got them in does NOT imply that they are on some upper or lower edge of the acceptance curve (whatever that is). it means if they applied as regular students, they would not have been admitted.

when the team average sat hovers somewhere between 1000 and 1100, which is 300-400 points below the school's average, it doesn't take a quantum leap to understand that the average player is dramatically below the school average and many players are dramatically below even that low average. duke, by law, does not release sat scores for individual players -- just team averages -- so you have to deduce what is going on. yes, there are a few outliers that would have gotten in on their own (you probably can count them on 1 hand) but, for the most part, the players get admitted solely because of football. it doesn't mean that they won't do well at duke and it certainly doesn't mean that they won't do well after they leave duke (the list of successful former duke football players is very long) but it does mean that they never would have been admitted but for the football team. this isn't rocket science.

To chime in here, the average SAT score that Duke usually gives is a middle 50% range, which means that 25% of the student body got a score higher than that range and 25% got lower. When I got into Duke, the range was 1370-1470. I got a 1210 and still got in. So, does that mean that I shouldn't have got in? Some people are just not good at tests, but once they are admitted, they prove that they have something to contribute to the community. I know I did. Just because some of the athletes have less than that doesn't mean that only football got them into Duke. Duke also lets in people (it was rumored to be as much as 12% when I was there, but never official) based on "legacy" status or what their parents could give financially to Duke. Should they also not be admitted, even if they can do the work? Duke admits people not just solely based on grades and SAT scores, but what they feel they can potentially contribute to the Duke community. Not only do these guys play football, but they contribute greatly in other ways to the Duke community. They work hard on and off the field, they go to class, they stay out of trouble for the most part, they become involved in the Duke and Durham community, they join clubs, organizations, they write theses, do senior projects, etc. They are not here just to play football, nor were they admitted just to play football. They are here to better themselves as a whole, to become an educated adult at the best university in the world. That, in turn, makes Duke better on all fronts.

Finally, if you go to Wally Wade, and you look in the closed part of the endzone, you will see a plaque with the many years that we have had the highest graduation rate for football in the NCAA. I believe the most recent one was 2003. To have so many fine young men graduate from an institution that many think they shouldn't even be admitted to based on the fact that they play football and get special treatment shows me 1) that they are smart, 2) that a stupid test can't predict who will succeed in college, and 3) we should be proud of the young men who have put on the Duke football uniform throughout the years and succeeded on and off the field, even if the scoreboard shows us on the short end week after week.

The day that football players start flunking out is the day we need to worry about our academic standards for the team. Until then, on this sad day (it's never easy to let go of a coach), we need to remember that there are 80+ young men who don't know what the future holds for their squad, and our support should be to them above all else.

OldPhiKap
11-26-2007, 03:09 PM
Do we really want to recycle fired coaches...?


. . . as opposed to luring away -- who? Who wants to take a pay cut to come to a struggling program?

throatybeard
11-26-2007, 03:25 PM
USM fired Bower?!?!?!?! That is freaking idiotic. He's the architect of one of the best non-BCS programs.

He's a UNC guy and his name was thrown around a bunch during their last couple searches.


So. Miss. apparently has fired Jeff Bower. The guy has done a great job while competing with SEC programs for talent. He's a winner and Duke should give him a long look. Plus, Bret Farve may take in some games now and then...

Bluedawg
11-26-2007, 03:26 PM
. . . as opposed to luring away -- who? Who wants to take a pay cut to come to a struggling program?

Please...come on... there are coaches out there either at midmajors, successful 1AA programs, etc. I've names 2 and i'll add Logan to the list who, although ECU did fire him, he was winning at the time.

Why hire a coach who was fired for not winning?

throatybeard
11-26-2007, 03:40 PM
Logan was a big winner at ECU given the stature of their program, and he was fired for one lousy year.

PS - I think Roof got fired because he didn't play the bench enough. COach K's influence is everywhere.

blazindw
11-26-2007, 03:40 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3128404

Add Houston Nutt to the list of the unemployed

jjasper0729
11-26-2007, 03:44 PM
USM fired Bower?!?!?!?! That is freaking idiotic. He's the architect of one of the best non-BCS programs.

He's a UNC guy and his name was thrown around a bunch during their last couple searches.

from the reports i read, Bower resigned (reasons as yet unknown) and wasn't fired. rumors for him are him stepping down and maybe going to ole miss/arkansas (don't know how the resigning would affect his availability over him getting fired)

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-26-2007, 03:44 PM
New coach? How about a thorough house cleaning ditching Brodhead, Alleva and Board Chair Steel! Duke administrators have had many opportunities to show their character, wisdom and leadership. The results have been dismal in situations which required courage and insight. Until the dudes in charge care about the football program and are willing to reverse the neglect visited on this program for YEARS, it will matter little who is hired.

Bluedawg
11-26-2007, 03:53 PM
Please...come on... there are coaches out there either at midmajors, successful 1AA programs, etc. I've names 2 and i'll add Logan to the list who, although ECU did fire him, he was winning at the time.

Why hire a coach who was fired for not winning?

PETE RICHARDSON

OldPhiKap
11-26-2007, 04:06 PM
New coach? How about a thorough house cleaning ditching Brodhead, Alleva and Board Chair Steel! Duke administrators have had many opportunities to show their character, wisdom and leadership. The results have been dismal in situations which required courage and insight. Until the dudes in charge care about the football program and are willing to reverse the neglect visited on this program for YEARS, it will matter little who is hired.


Bingo.

RPS
11-26-2007, 04:09 PM
Joe was an exception to the rule. That dog won't hunt...sorry

If your assertion is that four-star status matters for kickers (I could be misunderstanding), the facts don't support you. Using the 20 Lou Groza Award (http://lougrozaaward.com/) semi-finalists as a rough measure for the best college kickers in the country and using rivals.com (http://www.rivals.com/) (from 2002-'07) for determining recruiting status, none of the top kickers were four-star and only 2 (of 20) were three-star. Moreover, none of Groza finalists were three or four-star recruits and none of the 6 ACC Groza semi-finalists were three or four-star recruits. At least as it relates to kicking, recruiting stars don't mean much -- the recruiting services are notoriously lousy with respect to kicking and punting.

Indoor66
11-26-2007, 04:10 PM
This is the key thing. The administration can let in those that might be extreme cases as long as the support staff is in place to make sure they graduate and keep up the academic tradition. I believe (I have heard from people that are truly in the know, some of whom post here) that the 5 year plan includes an emphasis on expanding the academic support role. I think the K-center for academics is part of this as it gives some physical space for it and should allow Duke to have more than 3 academic support staff members for the football team.

now for my opinions:

I don't know that Steve Logan is the answer. I know he'll command a lot of money and while we should have a higher salary for the coach and his staff, it probably doens't need to be what Logan is purportedly looking for (based on his comments during the unc/ncsu searches).

Definitely though, someone needs to be hired that has head coaching experience and the ability to have staff continuity. Comparing our situation to Wakes, the underlying theme of Wake's success is that most of Grobe's assistants are still there after his initial hire. We've had 3 different O-Coordinators in the last 3 years.

Tressel and Grobe came from I-AA and it could behoove Duke to look that route rather than go for a splash with a name only. Rumors have Schottenheimer... good Lord I hope not.

Craig Bohl has HC experience at ND State. The same goes for the coach at Ga. Southern. Maybe also, the coach at Wofford.

I would LOVE to get someone to come to Duke, turn it around and stay a long time. Unfortunately, until it's considered stable, it won't turn out that way. it will be a death blow to a career if the losing continues (like vandy was) or a stepping stone job for a while if someone can come in and turn it around to go on to bigger and better things. BUT, if things can turn around, people may start to look at it as a destination.

The key thing is the support from the administration and the fans. I try to go to as many games as possible. I take my son with me and have for the last 7 years (since he was born).

As far as the facilities. Yes, it's a mess, but I'd go out on a limb and say that inside the wall of the stadium itself, it's okay. The concourse area needs to be improved drastically (hide the murray building with some trees, build those concession plazas, add functional restrooms) and maybe put in some club type seating at the top of the stands somehow. The only thing I hate about the actual stadium (inside the walls) is the flight of steps (hurts when you sit way down in the bowl and want to go back up for something), but I'm old now so I'll deal.

Anyway, I hate to see Roof go, but everything needs to be laid out and get someone here that is committed to winning (like Coach K said) and that has the support of everyone from the top down, including the students and fans.

How about Bobby Hauck of University of Montana at Missoula? We did OK with someone from Missoula in the past! :)


From the U of M website:

http://www.montanagrizzlies.com/content/coaches/football/hauck.htm

Bobby Hauck (pronounced HOWK) has had an exemplary four-year tenure at his alma mater, going 41-13 overall and 24-5 in Big Sky Conference games.

He has guided the Grizzlies to four straight league championships -- the most by any coach in Griz history.

He has also led the Griz to four NCAA Football Championship Subdivision (the FCS was formerly called Division I-AA) playoff appearances in a row, including the title game in 2004.

killerleft
11-26-2007, 04:10 PM
Yeah, when you think on it, a question you could ask yourself is : Were Fred Goldsmith, Barry Wilson, Red Wilson, Carl Franks, and Ted Roof all bad coaches who should have been fired?

Or should the administrators who were responsible for hanging them out to dry bear the responsibility?

I vote for the latter. It is obvious that Duke has given them as little support as they could through the years.

Without big money being infused into the football program, Duke will have to be EXTREMELY lucky to get the program winning again. So, big money plus another crapshoot chance at an up and coming type coach, or big money plus big money to get a recognized program rebuilder- either way can work, more money betters the odds.

If I had to bet, the current bunch will just screw it up again.

OldPhiKap
11-26-2007, 04:16 PM
Please...come on... there are coaches out there either at midmajors, successful 1AA programs, etc. I've names 2 and i'll add Logan to the list who, although ECU did fire him, he was winning at the time.

Why hire a coach who was fired for not winning?

1. I'm not sure that taking a coach from a lower level is any better than a D-1 coach who has hit a rough spot. It seems similar to college coaches who try to make in in the NFL -- which is usually a disaster. After all, Roof was exactly what you are talking about -- an assistant coach from a winning program.

2. Sometimes a coach's record is not a reflection of his abilities, but rather of the commitment the university makes to him. (And, yes, I think that applies to Roof as well although that argument is moot at present). The fact that a coach may get fired -- especially from these schools where 9-3 is a "bad year" -- does not mean he cannot coach.

3. If you bring in some young hotshot from out of nowhere and he gets us moving forward, someone bigger will come in and scoop him up (like Spurrier). Which again goes back to my main point -- without a solid commitment from the university to make something out of this program, we're just rearranging deck chairs on the Titantic.

rockymtn devil
11-26-2007, 04:29 PM
1. I'm not sure that taking a coach from a lower level is any better than a D-1 coach who has hit a rough spot. It seems similar to college coaches who try to make in in the NFL -- which is usually a disaster. After all, Roof was exactly what you are talking about -- an assistant coach from a winning program.

First, making the move from 1-AA to 1-A is nothing like making the move from college to the NFL. Coaches in the NFL do fundamentally different things than college coaches do. In the pros it's about gameplanning and managing egos of grown men--teaching takes a back seat because most of the players making up an NFL roster (even the Miami Dolphins) don't need to be taught. In college there's still gameplanning, but there's the added element of teaching, and you have to be able to teach at any level of college football. Charlie Weis is a bad college coach because he can't teach (which is why his team makes the same mistakes every week) Plenty of great football coaches have succeeded at both the 1-A and 1-AA level.

Second, Roof had no head coaching experience and I'm not sure anyone is advocating hiring an assistant coach from another program. There's a big difference between an offensive coordinator at, say, Florida, and a head coach at Delaware or Furman. I'll take the latter.

OldPhiKap
11-26-2007, 04:42 PM
First, making the move from 1-AA to 1-A is nothing like making the move from college to the NFL. Coaches in the NFL do fundamentally different things than college coaches do. In the pros it's about gameplanning and managing egos of grown men--teaching takes a back seat because most of the players making up an NFL roster (even the Miami Dolphins) don't need to be taught. In college there's still gameplanning, but there's the added element of teaching, and you have to be able to teach at any level of college football. Charlie Weis is a bad college coach because he can't teach (which is why his team makes the same mistakes every week) Plenty of great football coaches have succeeded at both the 1-A and 1-AA level.

Perhaps. But there is also a big difference between playing Wofford and PC, and playing Clemson and VTech. It's not merely the role of teacher. The institutions have drastically different needs and spotlights. My original point was that Duke will have difficulty luring a good coach away from another D-1 school. Instead of settling for a coach from a lower level, I would like to see our administration step up and act like they really care about this program.


Second, Roof had no head coaching experience and I'm not sure anyone is advocating hiring an assistant coach from another program. There's a big difference between an offensive coordinator at, say, Florida, and a head coach at Delaware or Furman. I'll take the latter.

Not sure I agree, because it seems that there are several successful head coaches who have spun off successful assistants. But either way, again we're settling for less than ideal. As K said, you need to have a championship mentality from the top down. The way to start that is with this hire.

formerdukeathlete
11-26-2007, 04:49 PM
I've said all along that I think strength and conditioning has been their biggest weakness this year. That needs to be worked on. They will be getting a 2 star kicker next year, their second weakness. The Third weakness is the run game.

If two of three plays had gone differently in 5 of their 12 games then they would be this year. I put fatigue as a major factor of those plays going against them. So yes, I think they could have.

But the press to announce his removal is a 2:00, so it’s a moot point.

While I focused more on the lack of qb rotation when needed IMO during various games (note the nice runs, including for a first down, and pass for a first down, by Asack during the UNC game notwithstanding coming into the game on a one and done play basis), there was a rigidity with Roof during games and a tendency not to utilize his bench. So, if Duke lost as a result of fatigue, well that is partly a function of this tendency, failure to utilize, and where does the fault lie for that.

Throaty may be exactly right. Roof may have lost his job because poor game day performance might be attributable to failure to utilize the bench adequately. If you have kids nearly as good on the bench, fresh, ready to play, maybe bigger and stronger, just younger, nearly as good - rotate them into the game. Maybe Ted just kind of froze up during games, or maybe he would get so personally involved with players that favorites developed.

Duvall
11-26-2007, 04:51 PM
PS - I think Roof got fired because he didn't play the bench enough. COach K's influence is everywhere.

Silly throatybeard. This is the post-ironic age of DBR, when no opinion is so absurd that someone won't actually agree with it.

throatybeard
11-26-2007, 05:00 PM
from the reports i read, Bower resigned (reasons as yet unknown) and wasn't fired. rumors for him are him stepping down and maybe going to ole miss/arkansas (don't know how the resigning would affect his availability over him getting fired)

I see, thanks for the info. That makes much more sense.

Arkansas should jump on him.

throatybeard
11-26-2007, 05:01 PM
Silly throatybeard. This is the post-ironic age of DBR, when no opinion is so absurd that someone won't actually agree with it.

The board has become a form of performance art, hasn't it?

rockymtn devil
11-26-2007, 05:12 PM
Perhaps. But there is also a big difference between playing Wofford and PC, and playing Clemson and VTech. It's not merely the role of teacher. The institutions have drastically different needs and spotlights. My original point was that Duke will have difficulty luring a good coach away from another D-1 school. Instead of settling for a coach from a lower level, I would like to see our administration step up and act like they really care about this program.

There is a difference, but the fundamental elements are the same. I'll sound like a broken record on this, but I think it's a good point: one of the most succesful 1-A coach this decade is Jim Tressel who made the move from Youngstown State to Ohio State (I'd say only Pete Carrol has been better). That is essentially preparing for the likes of Wofford one year and Clemson the next (note: Bob Stoops has won more games this decade than anyone else but had 8 vacated by the NCAA).

I think Duke is making a mistake if it doesn't at least look to 1-AA for candidates.

ehdg
11-26-2007, 06:14 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3128404

Add Houston Nutt to the list of the unemployed

Damn off topic some here but DAMN I thought he did enough beating LSU on Friday to save his bleeping job. Even a big win isn't enough I guess at times go figure!!!!

Oh wait he's resigning according to ESPN I just read. Hmmm they offered him a raise and he still wasn't interested. Intreasting.

killerleft
11-26-2007, 06:53 PM
Is it really true, as some have said, that Duke has no chance at a big-name coach? Since when has money not talked, especially if it is backed up with other improvements and help for the football program?

Certainly a lot of these coaches accepted big challenges at some time in their careers. None has the 'nads to accept the Duke challenge?

Since the hiring of a big-name coach would help to push the lacrosse case further into the background, wouldn't this be an even better buy-off than other Duke settlements in the recent past? Isn't that what this administration does best?

Hire Joe B. Famous and Lacrosse keeps fading, just like the Administration has been hoping all along. Heck, even I would say "Hooray for Dick and Joe!". Just kidding, but I would feel ever so better about them.

ehdg
11-26-2007, 07:29 PM
I still think he should have been given one more year. Hell even Franks and Goldsmith got 5 years. Okay so Franks was fired in the middle of his fifth year but that was only cause the team finally quit on him. Our boys never quit on Roof. Though maybe he could have used a better OC. I really think next year could have been a much better year for Roof and the boys. But alas our esteemed AD has decided to turn the page. I just hope who ever we bring in to replace Roof gets more support and a better chance at succeeding. Hell he's already in a better position then Roof was based on the talent of the players we have now.

cspan37421
11-26-2007, 08:50 PM
I can't see a Div 1 (formerly I-AA) coach coming to Duke if they're really an up and comer. Reason? Perceived commitment to football, and the trail of bodies not named Spurrier in the coaching graveyard. The only way would be stupid money and Duke isn't going to pay that. Even at "going rate" why would you take the chance? Duke must pay a premium for its recent history. If we got lucky and got someone, we'd need to give them golden handcuffs - recall Spurrier left after merely 3 years. So we'll be paying big sooner or later, to get an up and comer.

I agree with those who say we need someone who can teach the game. At this level it is important - coaches make a huge difference. I disagree with those who say we shouldn't look at assistants anymore. The dynamic there is that some folks peak in their effectiveness as assistants. Others have leadership qualities that are ready to be utilized. That we have had disappointing records with assistants does not mean that we always will. I'd bet that many successful coaches today started as assistants. The thing is, though, that most assistants probably don't have those leadership skills - it is a minority.

I like the idea of looking into whether there are skilled coaches who are being overlooked because of their race. But I doubt this is really fertile ground any longer - e.g., even in the deep south: Mississippi State has Sylvester Croom - but it might be worth looking into.

Before I've mentioned the idea of an older turnaround specialist looking to make his final and most impressive mark. The downside is of course that he might leave once successful, but so would any successful up-and-comer. But he could put the program back on its feet. And hey, quality of life in the RTP area is pretty darn good, he might not want to retire once he's winning. He might stick around like JoePa. Or maybe he'd hand the reins to an assistant who could do the same thing. Just an idea - hard to do worse than the last few guys, so why not try something new?

hughgs
11-26-2007, 09:57 PM
First, making the move from 1-AA to 1-A is nothing like making the move from college to the NFL. Coaches in the NFL do fundamentally different things than college coaches do. In the pros it's about gameplanning and managing egos of grown men--teaching takes a back seat because most of the players making up an NFL roster (even the Miami Dolphins) don't need to be taught. In college there's still gameplanning, but there's the added element of teaching, and you have to be able to teach at any level of college football. Charlie Weis is a bad college coach because he can't teach (which is why his team makes the same mistakes every week) Plenty of great football coaches have succeeded at both the 1-A and 1-AA level.

Second, Roof had no head coaching experience and I'm not sure anyone is advocating hiring an assistant coach from another program. There's a big difference between an offensive coordinator at, say, Florida, and a head coach at Delaware or Furman. I'll take the latter.

I would hope that given the choice that Duke would take the coach from Furman. Go Blue Hens!

throatybeard
11-28-2007, 12:29 PM
Nice KU-MU article from an MU perspective about how they finally stopped 4- and 5-year coaching carousels:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/mizzou/story/65446CA1006C0AB7862573A100199186?OpenDocument

Duvall
11-28-2007, 12:41 PM
Nice KU-MU article from an MU perspective about how they finally stopped 4- and 5-year coaching carousels:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/mizzou/story/65446CA1006C0AB7862573A100199186?OpenDocument


Stoops said last week he read the records of Pinkel and Kansas' Mark Mangino, who were matched in the showdown at Arrowhead Stadium. In Mangino's first five years at KU, the Jayhawks were 25-35. In Pinkel's first six years at Mizzou, the Tigers were 37-35.

Not sure that this applies. I can't see Duke firing a coach with a start remotely close to that.

Zeke
11-28-2007, 03:21 PM
If you look at it from a coaches point of view. The Duke job is not one that they will likely flock to. Many coaches in the last 40+ years have tried, failed, and been let go after 4 years - doesn't look good on your resume'. The university hasn't given very much, if at all, on letting minimally acceptable students into the university. The pay is not good enough to take the risk for an established head coach. What you will see, I believe, is an assistant coach from somewhere who is just dying to get a head coach's job and willing to risk it - stay for a while then leave for a better job if the team does only a little better. It won't be a big name coach - unless someone comes out of retirement

Bluedawg
11-28-2007, 03:33 PM
1. I'm not sure that taking a coach from a lower level is any better than a D-1 coach who has hit a rough spot. It seems similar to college coaches who try to make in in the NFL -- which is usually a disaster. After all, Roof was exactly what you are talking about -- an assistant coach from a winning program.

2. Sometimes a coach's record is not a reflection of his abilities, but rather of the commitment the university makes to him. (And, yes, I think that applies to Roof as well although that argument is moot at present). The fact that a coach may get fired -- especially from these schools where 9-3 is a "bad year" -- does not mean he cannot coach.

3. If you bring in some young hotshot from out of nowhere and he gets us moving forward, someone bigger will come in and scoop him up (like Spurrier). Which again goes back to my main point -- without a solid commitment from the university to make something out of this program, we're just rearranging deck chairs on the Titantic.


1 - I'm talking about a successful head coach. For example Mack Brown started at Appalachian State as a HC. After that Tulane and he has done pretty good for himself.

2 - Agreed, which is why i advocated for keeping Roof!

3 - that is always a risk. Burch Davis is not a "young hotshot' and UNC might still lose him to Arkansas. There are no guarantees.

Bluedawg
11-28-2007, 03:36 PM
. There's a big difference between an offensive coordinator at, say, Florida, and a head coach at Delaware or Furman. I'll take the latter.

or a 1AA HC with 2 national championship rings.

Bluedawg
11-28-2007, 03:39 PM
Not sure I agree, because it seems that there are several successful head coaches who have spun off successful assistants. But either way, again we're settling for less than ideal.

Every successful head coach at one time was a successful assistant. the difference is we tried twice to train a HC, and it didn't work. lettign the get ther OJT at a mid major of 1AA school helps.

Bluedawg
11-28-2007, 03:44 PM
While I focused more on the lack of qb rotation when needed IMO during various games (note the nice runs, including for a first down, and pass for a first down, by Asack during the UNC game notwithstanding coming into the game on a one and done play basis), there was a rigidity with Roof during games and a tendency not to utilize his bench. So, if Duke lost as a result of fatigue, well that is partly a function of this tendency, failure to utilize, and where does the fault lie for that.

Throaty may be exactly right. Roof may have lost his job because poor game day performance might be attributable to failure to utilize the bench adequately. If you have kids nearly as good on the bench, fresh, ready to play, maybe bigger and stronger, just younger, nearly as good - rotate them into the game. Maybe Ted just kind of froze up during games, or maybe he would get so personally involved with players that favorites developed.

First I don't think that a team wins with a qb rotation. They win with a leader. No I know you’ll have some isolated examples for me, but over the long haul you need one QB.

Second, Roof himself said that maybe he redshirted the wrong people and may should have used some of them. he has always said that depth was an issue that he was working on, yet another reason i advocated for a 5th year.

Bluedawg
11-28-2007, 03:49 PM
Is it really true, as some have said, that Duke has no chance at a big-name coach? Since when has money not talked, especially if it is backed up with other improvements and help for the football program?

Certainly a lot of these coaches accepted big challenges at some time in their careers. None has the 'nads to accept the Duke challenge?

Since the hiring of a big-name coach would help to push the lacrosse case further into the background, wouldn't this be an even better buy-off than other Duke settlements in the recent past? Isn't that what this administration does best?

Hire Joe B. Famous and Lacrosse keeps fading, just like the Administration has been hoping all along. Heck, even I would say "Hooray for Dick and Joe!". Just kidding, but I would feel ever so better about them.

No, i don't think so. However, if I had the choice between a fired big-name coach and a employed, successful mid major or 1AA I’d go with the latter.

However, who is to say that mid major or 1AA don't have big-name coaches

Bluedawg
11-28-2007, 03:51 PM
I can't see a Div 1 (formerly I-AA) coach coming to Duke if they're really an up and comer.

Sorry, strongly disagree.

SoCalDukeFan
11-28-2007, 08:28 PM
To me there is much less of a difference in moving from a lower level of college to the upper (I forget what they the divisions) than moving from college to pro.

Pros get to draft their players, college coaches need to recruit. And as was pointed out by others college coaches need to be better teachers.

A lower division coach must be an astute judge of talent and a pretty good recruiter. He needs to find guys good enough to play for him but not so good that they will be recruited away by bigger programs. Or he needs to outrecruit the bigger programs. Plus he will bring with him a successful staff.

SoCal