New Orleans Upsets NC State

[heath_harshman4]

Ugly ugly game. UNO down by 9 with about 2 minutes left and NCST gave the game away. a stupid foul by fells...Not a very deep NCST squad...maybe a little over-hyped?

[riverside6]

Went to the NC State game tonight, and just posted my recap here (http://www.scacchoops.com/forms/tt_NewsBreaker_External.asp?NB=960). Bad defense, no rebounding, and a UNO team that definitely wanted more formed a bad recipe for the Pack.

Despite the loss, Hickson was definitely impressive (22 pts, 13 rebs) once again.

[Patrick Yates]

I really have not cottoned on to what many are saying about the pack. Most of the media, and regular fans, have the pack grouped in the second tier of the ACC with Duke and Clemson, with all trailing UNC. I just don't see it.

NCSU has no discernable backcourt. They are starting a PG that would not even be considered as a walk on at Duke, Clemson, nor UNC. Is their frontline great? Sure. But who gets them the ball? Who makes big perimeter Js and Free Throws down the stretch? They will win some games, but they will lose some too, and more than most seem to think. I have NCSU in the third tier of the ACC with UMD, UVA, and possibly GT. They aren't a bad team, but they have a glaring weakness at what is unfortunately the most vital position in college hoops, the PG. This is doubly damaging as the ACC, which is down a little this year, is still strong at the PG slot, at least at the upper echelons to which NCSU (foolishly) aspires.

Expect to see much dissappointment from NCSU this year. Poor G play will doom them in several close games. And until I see some effort on D, they will be in a lot of close games.

Patrick Yates

[gw67]

I haven't seen State play but it appears that Lowe is basically playing five players. Unfortunately for them, their two best reserves (McCauley and Horner) are frontcourt players and this is an area where State is very strong. McCauley was a starter last year (14 ppg, 7 rpg and 3 apg) and Horner appeared to have potential. I suspect that they are not happy with their reduced minutes and Lowe may have to deal with chemistry issues as well as tired legs as the season progresses.

gw67

[CDu]

I haven't seen State play but it appears that Lowe is basically playing five players. Unfortunately for them, their two best reserves (McCauley and Horner) are frontcourt players and this is an area where State is very strong. McCauley was a starter last year (14 ppg, 7 rpg and 3 apg) and Horner appeared to have potential. I suspect that they are not happy with their reduced minutes and Lowe may have to deal with chemistry issues as well as tired legs as the season progresses.

gw67

I've heard that McCauley is recovering from an illness, which would explain his lack of minutes. I'd expect him to get a decent share of the frontcourt minutes, perhaps in the neighborhood of 20 per game with Costner and Hickson getting 25-30 per game. Horner's role is going to take a hit.

As for the guard depth, they're awaiting a transfer to become eligible in January, and their freshman point guard Gonzalez is limited by a thumb injury. That should help some (who knows how much) with the backcourt depth. Degand didn't play horribly last night, but Fells sure did.

In my opinion, the loss last night should fall on the shoulders of Costner and Fells. Those guys combined for just 10 points, and just generally looked uninterested out there on both ends of the court (with the exception of Fells' intentional foul, of course). I'm not sure why that was, because both are 1-on-1 isolation type players. But they're going to need to get more out of Costner and Fells to be competitive in the ACC.

[riverside6]

I'd agree that the loss falls on Costner and Fells. Neither of the two appeared mentally into the game one bit (as evidence by the intentional foul and Costner getting pulled from the game after a lazy play), and you'll notice in my write-up I commented on how the point guard play was more than sufficient. I was quite impressed by Degand, he really played within himself and made plays when the opportunity presented itself. That is really all NC State really needs from their point guard this season.

[dukelifer]

I really have not cottoned on to what many are saying about the pack. Most of the media, and regular fans, have the pack grouped in the second tier of the ACC with Duke and Clemson, with all trailing UNC. I just don't see it.

NCSU has no discernable backcourt. They are starting a PG that would not even be considered as a walk on at Duke, Clemson, nor UNC. Is their frontline great? Sure. But who gets them the ball? Who makes big perimeter Js and Free Throws down the stretch? They will win some games, but they will lose some too, and more than most seem to think. I have NCSU in the third tier of the ACC with UMD, UVA, and possibly GT. They aren't a bad team, but they have a glaring weakness at what is unfortunately the most vital position in college hoops, the PG. This is doubly damaging as the ACC, which is down a little this year, is still strong at the PG slot, at least at the upper echelons to which NCSU (foolishly) aspires.

Expect to see much dissappointment from NCSU this year. Poor G play will doom them in several close games. And until I see some effort on D, they will be in a lot of close games.

Patrick Yates

State's backcourt is indeed a question mark- but the guards they have- Gonzalez and Degand have some skills. The problem is mostly one of experience and controlling the game. State played as if they had no idea what they were doing on offense. They are relying too much on their athleticism and not enough on good interior passing asthey have in the past. They definitely did not play well last night. Time will tell if they can turn it around. Hickson is going to be a handfull. They key is to keep him away from the basket which is much easier said than done. He is fast and strong.

[Slackerb]

Yeah, it's hard for me to believe Mr. Yates has watched State play this year. The media and most people are harping that the PG situation will be State's undoing if anything, but so far that simply hasn't been the case.

State's PGs are playing just fine so far, and any struggles they've had can't be pinned on the PG position.

Rather, State is playing lackluster ball thus far, relying on athleticism and sheer talent to win, rather than playing hard and well together. Team chemistry and lack of hustle are the biggest problems facing them right now, and that manifested fully last night.

How can a underdog win a game like this:

-woefully undersized, but still wins offensive rebounding battle
-Shoots only 33% compared to State's nearly 50%
-low 3 point percentage

Usually an underdog can win by shooting lights out, or hitting tons of threes. NO didn't do that last night, and somehow won.

[Wander]

Degand was fine. Not great, but fine. State had awful late game execution. Hickson looks great but there is no leadership on this team at all from the veterans and that's the area where they're missing Atsur the most. New Orleans must have gotten like 90% of the loose balls. Also, right now, it looks like State has a total of six ACC level players.

[riverside6]

One thing about Hickson I noticed was that he looked really worn down at the end of the game. It's entirely possible he's battling a cold or something else, but I was surprised to see him so winded between plays.

[gw67]

riverside - Normally when a rated team is upset, the opposition plays very well. Looking at the box score, New Orleans shot 35%, including 3-17 from 3-point land. They also commited five more fouls. That normally isn't a recipe for success. It appears that they took down the "3rd best ACC team" without even playing a good game.

gw67

[CDu]

riverside - Normally when a rated team is upset, the opposition plays very well. Looking at the box score, New Orleans shot 35%, including 3-17 from 3-point land. They also commited five more fouls. That normally isn't a recipe for success. It appears that they took down the "3rd best ACC team" without even playing a good game.

gw67

It was a case of desire AND execution. UNO won in the "hustle stats" department. They got more second-chance points, more offensive rebounds, more steals, etc. They also committed 6 fewer turnovers and shot nearly 80% from the line compared to just over 50% for State. UNO didn't shoot well from the field, but they played smarter and harder than State, and that's why they won.

I think your last statement is misleading - I don't think State played anything like the 3rd-best ACC team last night. Costner and Fells looked completely indifferent, and it doesn't appear that McCauley is playing at full strength. That's nearly half of the rotation of players not showing up.

[wilson]

I actually rather like State, and generally root for them. But having written a Master's thesis largely about privateers, I am always glad to see UNO win. Coolest nickname in college sports, imo, and intimately related to New Orleans' history.

[riverside6]

It was a case of desire AND execution. UNO won in the "hustle stats" department. They got more second-chance points, more offensive rebounds, more steals, etc. They also committed 6 fewer turnovers and shot nearly 80% from the line compared to just over 50% for State. UNO didn't shoot well from the field, but they played smarter and harder than State, and that's why they won.

I think your last statement is misleading - I don't think State played anything like the 3rd-best ACC team last night. Costner and Fells looked completely indifferent, and it doesn't appear that McCauley is playing at full strength. That's nearly half of the rotation of players not showing up.
bingo

Let me also add UNO had nothing but Wild Cards, Skips, and Reverses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNO_(game)).

[Slackerb]

One thing about Hickson I noticed was that he looked really worn down at the end of the game. It's entirely possible he's battling a cold or something else, but I was surprised to see him so winded between plays.

Hickson's biggest flaw is his conditioning, and it's been this way all year. Ideally that won't be an issue since he and McCauley will both play quite a bit. Which leads me to #2:

I think Ben McCauley is sick. He was definitely sick last week, and missed playing time because of it, and I suspect he still is not 100% or you would see more playing time from him. Although Hickson looks great, McCauley is honorable mention All-ACC last year and really turned it on down the stretch. Expect him to play a much bigger role soon and consequently, State to become more steady. I think they really miss his post-passing skills and rebounding. Basically, they are playing without their starting center.


Degand was fine. Not great, but fine. State had awful late game execution. Hickson looks great but there is no leadership on this team at all from the veterans and that's the area where they're missing Atsur the most. New Orleans must have gotten like 90% of the loose balls. Also, right now, it looks like State has a total of six ACC level players.

I guess it depends on what you call ACC level players. Hickson, Grant, Costner, McCauley, Fells are obviously ACC caliber players. Tracy Smith is unproven, but highly touted. Dennis Horner is not playing at an ACC caliber currently, but did so in the last part of last year. Not good, but ACC caliber definitely. I think Degand also is playing at an ACC level. He's currently only a mediocre ACC PG, but is definitely playing like he'll be able to hang at the ACC level. Ferguson, etc. definitely aren't playing at an ACC level.

So that makes 7 by my count, with Degand possibly in question and Horner not quite playing to ACC level.

[whereinthehellami]

What about Sidney Lowe? Was he unable to motivate some of the players? Is he coaching college players like pro players?

[Wander]

I guess it depends on what you call ACC level players. Hickson, Grant, Costner, McCauley, Fells are obviously ACC caliber players. Tracy Smith is unproven, but highly touted. Dennis Horner is not playing at an ACC caliber currently, but did so in the last part of last year. Not good, but ACC caliber definitely. I think Degand also is playing at an ACC level. He's currently only a mediocre ACC PG, but is definitely playing like he'll be able to hang at the ACC level. Ferguson, etc. definitely aren't playing at an ACC level.

So that makes 7 by my count, with Degand possibly in question and Horner not quite playing to ACC level.

I was counting Degand and not Horner. I think Degand has been adequate, which is just want State wanted out of their PG situation.

[Slackerb]

Agreed.


at about Sidney Lowe? Was he unable to motivate some of the players? Is he coaching college players like pro players?

In my opinion, much of the blame for this loss must rest on his shoulders. State had a lead with 1 minute to go, and for some reason kept fouling NO and almost insisted on stretching out the game it seemed. Instead, State should have burned the clock and tried to eek out the win. It was as if they were still playing aggressively both on offense and D for some reason. Fells intentional foul at the end was a perfect example. As a coach, the first and last thing those players should hear at the end of that game would be "don't foul!"

Also, his rotations are all messed up. The bench isn't producing at all, and getting quite a few minutes. Trevor Ferguson in particular is playing a good amount and producing nothing on offense AND defense. When he was in the game against NO, they'd go on a big run. Also, it seemed like he subs in waves. First team and then put in the second team, rather than mixing them up. This did not seem to work well so far in either games and led to stagnant periods.

Finally, there definitely are some chemistry on this team. At the postgame conference, several players alluded to gripes about shots and playing time. IMO, likely suspects are Costner and Fells (who both played like they didn't care/wanted to make a statement).

[jzp5079]

Gavin Grant is one well oiled turnover machine...

Didn't he average over 4 lor something last year?

I havn't looked at the box score but if he didn't have at least 3 turnovers in that game I'll most certaintly be embarressed.

[CDu]

Gavin Grant is one well oiled turnover machine...

Didn't he average over 4 lor something last year?

I havn't looked at the box score but if he didn't have at least 3 turnovers in that game I'll most certaintly be embarressed.

Well, it'd be a much bigger deal if he was the point guard. Grant's turnovers were much more of a concern when he was asked to fill in at point guard last year.

But this year he's exclusively the small forward, so his 3 turnovers last night were less of an issue as compared to the rest of his line: 20 pts, 7-8 from the field (3-3 from 3pt range), 3-4 from the line, 6 rebounds, 2 blocks, 1 steal. Grant had a very good game, and was very much NOT the reason they lost.

[Slackerb]

Yeah, it wasn't the usual suspects in the UNO game (Grant or Fells with turnovers). This is a completely different team from last year. Also, the "big question" of PG wasn't the reason they lost either. See above.

[gw67]

Five players are averaging over 31 minutes per game. McCauley, Horner and Ferguson have each had their minutes cut significantly. Whether this is proper or not, it would seem to be a source of discontent IMO.

gw67

[riverside6]

Five players are averaging over 31 minutes per game. McCauley, Horner and Ferguson have each had their minutes cut significantly. Whether this is proper or not, it would seem to be a source of discontent IMO.

gw67

To be fair, there was some inconsistency over the reserves minutes. My site, ESPN, and several other sources have all of the reserves getting less than 10 minutes a piece, while GoPack.com actually has the reserves getting more time. I'm really not sure which is right, although GoPack does have a game log, so I actually that GoPack.com is right.

[CDu]

To be fair, there was some inconsistency over the reserves minutes. My site, ESPN, and several other sources have all of the reserves getting less than 10 minutes a piece, while GoPack.com actually has the reserves getting more time. I'm really not sure which is right, although GoPack does have a game log, so I actually that GoPack.com is right.

The gopack stats look more accurate. McCauley certainly seemed to play more than 10 minutes. And Gavin Grant did not play 39 minutes (as suggested by ESPN).

Also, McCauley's minutes were limited by sickness. His minutes will likely go up as he gets healthier.

[pamtar]

If Lowe didnt have their attention for this game he damn sure has it now. i'm gonna have to go with the cliche "good loss" on this one. On the other hand, if they don't respond its going to be a long year. However, I think they will live up to expectations.
Although Hickson is great State's success will go the way of the Costner. Based on last year's performance against the heels in the tourney I believe he has the ability to dominate inside and out. I cant believe they didn't get him more looks from three. Allowing him to become a pseudo-backcourt guy in transition or on the kick-out will allow state to utilize their dominant frontcourt and get better perimeter ball movement. Costner can also penetrate off the dribble. In essence, maybe changing his role a little could solve many of State's problems.

[Slackerb]

The problem is that in the offseason, Costner appears to have gained about 10-15 pounds. He's too fat and slow to play the 3 right now for sure, so if he's constantly stepping out and setting up the three point shot, State's rebounding suffers even more, and you can double Hickson/McCauley more easily.

I agree he needs to step up his game in order for State to be successful, but it's gonna be tough for him in that increased frame.

[gw67]

I'm looking forward to seeing State play and I hope that they iron out any player issues. Lowe is from the DC area and seems to be a straight up guy. The ACC web site for NC State is slightly different from ESPN. Four players are averaging over 30 mpg and one is averaging 28.5 mpg. Hickson's stats are very good.

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2007-2008/st.html

gw67