Josh McRoberts Play

[Dukiedevil]

Tonight we saw the entire gambit of McBob's season in 45 minutes. He had the first half where he disappeared because of getting a few early fouls, the second half and overtime where he had flashes of absolute dominance in the post and he also had the game turning possession in OT where we eventually lost it. The play I'm referring to is where, after scoring every time he touched the ball, he got the ball deep in the post and instead of making a move and shooting, he took 2 dribbles and passed it back out to Paulus. I told my wife the game was over at that point.

I think Josh hasn't figured out how to best use his skills on offense yet. He thinks too much about making a great pass or setting up the rest of the team. What I would like to see him do is to watch a few Boozer/S. Williams tapes and watch them in the post. Now I realize those two were more of the bruising post player types, but what they did when they got the ball in the post was go immediately into scoring moves until the double teams came and then pass. Josh often gets the ball in good position but then seems to try to draw a double team by just waiting. That is less effective than having the team try to react to an offensive move.

By the way, someone posted in another thread that we have terrible defense in the post. I actually think Josh is one of the better post defenders we have had in a while. The problem is that we have very poor helpside defense (especially the 2nd half of the season), and we rarely double team by bringing a guard down from the key. Coach K mentioned that communication is the problem, so I'm not sure if it is Josh not doing a good job talking or the helpside guys not listening.

Just a few thoughts... I love Josh's game and would like to see him come back for one more year. I personally think he's gone and don't really disagree with that decision. The only thing that may keep him is the fact that this years draft is so strong...

[CMS2478]

He has NO posts moves, except the little running hook shot which is not that accurate. His whole summer needs to be spent in the weightroom and working on his post game ( not his dribbling / point guard game ) and I think he needs to come back another year and iron out those little flaws don't you ;)

[SharkD]

He has NO posts moves, except the little running hook shot which is not that accurate. His whole summer needs to be spent in the weightroom and working on his post game ( not his dribbling / point guard game ) and I think he needs to come back another year and iron out those little flaws don't you ;)
I agree that Josh needs to hit the weight room -- I remarked to a friend during last week's game at Carolina that it was interesting that Zoubek has bulked up noticeably over the course of the season and McRoberts hasn't.

Some of it's probably metabolism, and I wonder if the off-season back injury has played a part... but I'd love to be a fly on the wall of one of Wojo's big-man sessions.

[imagepro]

I agree totally Dukie. People bash Josh, but can you imagine if he had left after LAST season. It would have been UGLY very very UGLY!

And if he does read what people say about him here, who could blame him for leaving?

[Classof06]

"Tonight we saw the entire gambit of McBob's season in 45 minutes. He had the first half where he disappeared because of getting a few early fouls, the second half and overtime where he had flashes of absolute dominance in the post and he also had the game turning possession in OT where we eventually lost it. The play I'm referring to is where, after scoring every time he touched the ball, he got the ball deep in the post and instead of making a move and shooting, he took 2 dribbles and passed it back out to Paulus. I told my wife the game was over at that point."


I'm so glad you said this !!!!!!! When he passed it back to Paulus, I literally let out an expletive in my living room. Him and McCauley were going back and forth and when it was our turn to answer again, McRoberts straight up backed down. I was very, very disappointed in that, because for the first time all sesaon, save the 2nd BC game, Josh was in an offensive rhythm. I too thought the game was over as soon as he passed it out. I know some say we expect too much of this kid too soon, but I think that's the case with Paulus, who has no intentions of testing NBA waters. When you come to college and decide to leave early for the NBA, it's usually after you've been pretty successful or dominated the college level for a full season, consistently. If everyone, including himself, considers Josh a potential lottery pick and he's so regularly mentioned in NBA draft talk, then he has to do something to warrant that discussion....I'm still waiting and thus believe he really needs to stay another year....

[Lord Ash]

I agree that Josh does play weak. He doesn't love to bang, and hasn't really developed "big" moves (up and under, etc etc.) He sort of holds it, takes three dribbles, fakes a few times, and then goes up.

However, I am not sure that he will come back. Like Shav, forcing Josh to play inside might help DUKE, but I don't think it will help his NBA prospects. Josh will be a 3 in the league, or maybe a 4, but won't really need to be a back to the basket type of player. So we can talk about him bulking up and all that, but I am not sure it will happen.

Now Zoubs... he better start working!

[BlueDevilBaby]

If Josh is going to be a 3 in the NBA, he better start working on his jump shot. He's no Tayshawn (sp?) Prince. I'd love to see him work on his slow release, arc and accuracy over the summer so he can show us a complete package next year at DUKE!

[jkidd31]

I agree that Josh does play weak. He doesn't love to bang, and hasn't really developed "big" moves (up and under, etc etc.) He sort of holds it, takes three dribbles, fakes a few times, and then goes up.

However, I am not sure that he will come back. Like Shav, forcing Josh to play inside might help DUKE, but I don't think it will help his NBA prospects. Josh will be a 3 in the league, or maybe a 4, but won't really need to be a back to the basket type of player. So we can talk about him bulking up and all that, but I am not sure it will happen.

Now Zoubs... he better start working!

I think Josh is a 4 in the NBA, he doesn't have the range to play 3. If was was consistantly knocking the "3" down at this level he'd have a chance, but as a right now his outside shot isn't as good as what Cherokee Parks or Eric Meeks had. I think he needs one more year to get stronger and work on his jumper. The biggest thing is he wasn't asked to do much last year, then this year he was expected to be the man. I really think is Josh works on his jumper and strength he could dominate a game the way Laettner could because he'd be to tough to guard on the perimeter for a big man, but if you put a smaller guy on him, he'll take him down low and overpower him.

Just making this little post just reminded me how much I loved #32.

[jaimedun34]

Forget range.

Josh doesn't have the quickness to play at the 3 in the NBA.

He's a perimeter oriented PF and there is nothing wrong with that (except for his complete lack of a jump shot).

[DukeDevilDeb]

Man, I loved Christian too! He just took over the game, willed Duke to win... with lots of help, of course, from Bobby and Grant and Thomas and others. But what everyone thought was obnoxious self-love on his part was really a determination to get every ounce of strength--both physical and emotional--and lay it out on the floor.

This year's team, for whatever reason, just can't even come close!

[Buckeye Devil]

IMHO, Josh is a bit of an enigma. I think it must be very challenging to try and
figure out the best way to use his skills. He has some point guard skills along with the mentality and desire of a PG in the body of a power forward or small center. He doesn't have the outside shot or quickness to play the 3 slot but has he really demonstrated an interior game to play the 4?

I know that the general belief is that he will go to the NBA after this year by those who are far more of an expert on Duke b-ball than me. But he could benefit from another year at Duke to try and figure out what he wants to be when he grows up, which he needs to do emotionally and attitudinally as well.

Interesting that I recently heard Greg Oden say that he doesn't want to go to the NBA unless he thinks he can make an immediate impact. Granted, a lot
of rookies don't make that impact in the first year, but Josh would make far less of a splash than Oden if they both go after this year, which seems likely.

[dukelifer]

Both Oden and Durrant are saying they might return- If true, McBob will be even more likely to go.

[dukie8]

Both Oden and Durrant are saying they might return- If true, McBob will be even more likely to go.

why? it's not like he goes from the 3 to the 1 if they come back (which they won't). if he comes out this year, he's clearly not ready and looking at being picked mid to late first round whether durant and oden are in the draft or not.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

In today's article

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/09/AR2007030902200.html

John Feinstein says this about him:

"These days Duke is symbolized by Josh McRoberts, who simply couldn't defend State's Brandon Costner (career-high 30 points) and spent much of the evening pulling the ball out of the net and screaming at teammates as if it were their fault that he couldn't -- as Bob Knight once eloquently put it -- guard the floor.

"McRoberts puts up nice numbers but appears to believe that playing college basketball is beneath him at times. He's about as ready for the NBA as he is for Broadway, but he may very well depart after the season. If you believe what people close to the Duke program are saying, few tears will be shed in the locker room if that occurs."


Makes sense to me.

[duketaylor]

seems most effective playing the post, yet, he floats all over. An enigma is a very good description of his season/game. Never know what you'll get from possession-to-possession, half-to-half and game-to-game. Frustrating being a fan this year. Anything's possible. Such a Jeckyl/Hyde year.
Let's find a way to get hot and peeve off some folks;)

[Zeke]

Josh strikes me not as a #5 but a #4. He is being asked to do something he really isn't "designed" to do in playing against some pretty rugged #5's on defense who often just push him out of the way.He also has to cover up for the occasional guard who slips past. He can drag the big guys outside on offense which has helped as long as the other team allowed that to happen. Contrary to most people here, I think Z is a pretty good #5 and did well against TH in the #1UNC game. For no real good reason I have a hunch if Z could get the ball near the lane up to 10 ft and turn and shoot as #1 choice instead of feeding as #1 choice we would be singing his praises now. I wished all season that Z would get some significant minutes at 5 along with Josh at 4 with the other guys rotating in at 1,2 and 3 may have been awesome - maybe not but just a wish.

[drion97]

I think in the right situations Josh is a fantastic defender. He seems to have shortcomings when, a) he's guarding a tall center with good post moves one on one, and b) he has to help on another big man.

Good centers can score over him, and he tends to pick up fouls if the opponents 4 gets around our guy and Josh is there.

Josh's athleticism makes him an outstanding defender, especially when he can guard the other 4. I feel like matching him up on post defense with a smaller McClure and less experienced Lance hurts his potential there. Hopefully next year, if he stays, playing next to Z will really help him.

And if Z and Lance progress and get more minutes, then Josh's foul trouble might be a thing of the past...

[tele]

I've wondered if some of McRoberts' hesitancy in the paint is his not wanting to get fouled and have to shoot free throws. Wouldn't be the first player that has gotten into that habit. When he goes to the rim strong he can be unstoppable, be nice to see him use his reach and length down low some.

I guess if you shoot 50% from the free throw line, to better that, a player would only need to shoot over 25% from the floor. So why take high percentage shots and draw contact to get to the line when you can just do spin moves and go 3 for 10? Not that a player would necessarily do the math, might just not want or try to get to the line. On the other hand, if you can shoot say 10 for 10 from the floor and go 10 for 10 from the line you can put together a memorable game.

[FewFAC]

He is being asked to do something he really isn't "designed" to do...

I certainly cannot fault Josh, or any of the players for that matter, for their development. You can't put a square peg in a round hole, yet the players are forced to adapt to the system, rather than the system adapting to the players. Only one place accountability lies there.

[Zeke]

I certainly cannot fault Josh, or any of the players for that matter, for their development. You can't put a square peg in a round hole, yet the players are forced to adapt to the system, rather than the system adapting to the players. Only one place accountability lies there.

I assume you mean that the players should adapt to the "Coach K system". I'm sure they were recruited with that in mind, however all coaches have to tweek their pet system every year to fit the personel (or sit them). It is the effectiveness of the players in the final analysis that produces W's not a "system" as all different kind of systems (actually multiple systems) are used both on offense and defense and should be, for the players, almost interchangeable depending on the game situation. Also teams have won with all different kinds of systems.
Having a player play 5, however, who is not a 5 dosen't mean he can't do it; it means he can't do it as well as he could play 4. Taking the example to an absudity think of GP playing 5 - he's just can't do it well, no matter how much he may want to or how hard he tries - and GP really tries hard - but he's not just built that way.

[FewFAC]

I assume you mean that the players should adapt to the "Coach K system". I'm sure they were recruited with that in mind, however all coaches have to tweek their pet system every year to fit the personel (or sit them). It is the effectiveness of the players in the final analysis that produces W's not a "system" as all different kind of systems (actually multiple systems) are used both on offense and defense and should be, for the players, almost interchangeable depending on the game situation. Also teams have won with all different kinds of systems.
Having a player play 5, however, who is not a 5 dosen't mean he can't do it; it means he can't do it as well as he could play 4. Taking the example to an absudity think of GP playing 5 - he's just can't do it well, no matter how much he may want to or how hard he tries - and GP really tries hard - but he's not just built that way.


I am not sure what your point is exactly, but it does not impact my original point. I do not question the effort or desire of any of the players on this team as I think the effort is obvious, and I think it is cruel to criticize the play of kids who are trying to play a game they love under immense pressure without being compensated.

As to whether a player can do something he is not prepared to do, I am not arguing. My point remains that if a player is not prepared to do something, the fault lies with the coaches for either 1) not preparing the player adequately enough to perform, or 2) not adequately adjusting to the player's actual abilities. These kids are not pros. You cannot lay the blame on them for failures to execute as long as the effort is there.

Instead, what I saw all year was the coaches continually allowing unprepared players to perform in areas that do not maximize their actual abilities, without making appropriate adjustments. Additionally, I strongly noticed the coaches' personal preferences influencing their decisions based on what they what they wanted to believe to be the case, instead of what was actually the case.

For the record, my expectations for this team this year were 9-7 in conference, so I did not overly inflate what this team was capable of doing.
What is so terribly upsetting, however, is seeing a team that was chronically underprepared, and a coaching staff that seemed equally or more unprepared. The coaches also appeared to be okay with the fact that this team was going to lose as long as they met some artificial internal benchmarks that were not consistent from player to player.

I strongly disagree with coaches looking to teach their players lessons through failing to accept what is necessary to win, as seemed to be the case this year. If anything, this was not a team that needed losses to deflate any inflated sense of self-worth. Last year, maybe, and I still would have strongly disagreed with it.

If that is "doing things the right way," I have no problem with concluding that there are errors afoot in this program with which I cannot live and will refuse to accept.

[johnb]

McRoberts is not ready to start in the NBA, but neither was Dunleavy, and that worked out for him, at least financially (last I checked, he was loathed by his last team and its fans).

The tall gangly white guy look is fine for Dirk Nowiski or Larry Bird, but they could both drill jumpers from 25 feet while McBob looks uncomfortable shooting from 20. It is interesting watching Josh dribble the ball the length of the court, but does he really think he could do that against the Suns? And regardless of skin tone, shooting ability, or dribbling skills, Josh would look foolish trying to guard an NBA 3 (they are quick, athletic studs). Finally, if he screamed at his teammates for his own lapses in the NBA, my hunch is that he would be met with a chilly response.

If he is to play the 4, it seems to me that Josh simply has to develop more upper and especially lower body strength. If he can't push out an NCAA forward or center, he will get mushed by inside guys in the NBA. They have weight rooms in the NBA, and, if he goes pro, he wouldn't be burdened by either class or playing time, so he would probably bulk up somewhat and so by the time he's 24 or 25, he could start for some team.

It is a serious decision, however, since he is gambling permanent financial security for an extrea year of college, and plenty of people would opt for the former regardless of what might be marginally better for one's career.

[Give a Blue Devil His Due]

"Tonight we saw the entire gambit of McBob's season in 45 minutes. He had the first half where he disappeared because of getting a few early fouls, the second half and overtime where he had flashes of absolute dominance in the post and he also had the game turning possession in OT where we eventually lost it. The play I'm referring to is where, after scoring every time he touched the ball, he got the ball deep in the post and instead of making a move and shooting, he took 2 dribbles and passed it back out to Paulus. I told my wife the game was over at that point."


I'm so glad you said this !!!!!!! When he passed it back to Paulus, I literally let out an expletive in my living room. Him and McCauley were going back and forth and when it was our turn to answer again, McRoberts straight up backed down. I was very, very disappointed in that, because for the first time all sesaon, save the 2nd BC game, Josh was in an offensive rhythm. I too thought the game was over as soon as he passed it out. I know some say we expect too much of this kid too soon, but I think that's the case with Paulus, who has no intentions of testing NBA waters. When you come to college and decide to leave early for the NBA, it's usually after you've been pretty successful or dominated the college level for a full season, consistently. If everyone, including himself, considers Josh a potential lottery pick and he's so regularly mentioned in NBA draft talk, then he has to do something to warrant that discussion....I'm still waiting and thus believe he really needs to stay another year....

You guys are dead on point and it sounds like you were in MY living room for the game. This is NOT the same confident and aggressive kid we saw in his freshman year. He's now, slow, soft in the paint, and has no confidence in his shot down low.

It could be that having Sheldon's presence down low gave him more freedom/less pressure to do his thing last year, but that still doesn't explain his inability to put the ball on the friggin' glass in the low post. He seems to have lost his identity...

Could he be a pod person? Things that make you say, hmmmmm:confused:

[Zeke]

FEWFAC. Sounds like we agree - I think. let me try this and see if it fits. The team - all good guys and players - all trying hard to play winning ball but hampered by either youth/inexperience or having to play a type of ball they can't quite fit. Maybe next year it will be a better fit. Do we agree?

[BlueDevilBaby]

If I recall correctly, most of Josh's scoring plays last year were dunks and layups off rebounds and the drive and dish where Sheldon or JJ were decoys. Not too may jumpers or post moves. He's got to develop a more consistent jump shot with a quicker release, or he will be riding the pine in the NBA. Dunleavy may have left a year too early, but at least he can shoot it. That being said, I really hope Josh decides to stay one more year and work on his game. A year of development and maturity could make a huge difference for him and Duke.

[FewFAC]

FEWFAC. Sounds like we agree - I think. let me try this and see if it fits. The team - all good guys and players - all trying hard to play winning ball but hampered by either youth/inexperience or having to play a type of ball they can't quite fit. Maybe next year it will be a better fit. Do we agree?

We can agree to that, though I definitely do not buy the youth/inexperience rationale.

[wiscodevil]

We can agree to that, though I definitely do not buy the youth/inexperience rationale.

I've oftened wondered why we aren't playing more uptempo this year. Between McRoberts and Nelson and Paulus and Henderson and Poscious (and possibly even Scheyer) it strikes me that their strengths are more suited to a faster pace.

I know we have been sloppy with the ball and perhaps that has discouraged the coaches from speeding up the game. Anybody have any insight?

[rsvman]

I've oftened wondered why we aren't playing more uptempo this year.
I know we have been sloppy with the ball and perhaps that has discouraged the coaches from speeding up the game. Anybody have any insight?

I think you answered your own question perfectly. We are looking at 15-16 turnovers a game even playing half-court ball. My guess is the coaches don't want that number to increase to 25 or even higher!:eek:

[Zeke]

FEW FAC Does FAC still mean freshman advisory council? If so that takes me back a few years. I hope you mean that they are playing a game or position they aren't equipped to do. If so we agree 100% Jumbo sometimes mentions Coach K's stubborness and this may be what he is talking about - agree?

[FewFAC]

Yeah Zeke, that is one of the meanings. There is also a personal, professional reference to it.

The reason for the downtempo game as I understand it also is to limit the number of possessions to cover defensive liabilities related to dribble penetration and weak help rotation. This is especially important if offensively points are hard to come by.

Without a strong offensive playmaker, and with injuries hampering the team at the beginning of the season limiting playmaking abilities, the likelihood was that a team with strong guard play or interior offense could score at will and prevent Duke from responding in kind, much like we saw in the last UNC game.

[devilish]

I agree that Josh needs to hit the weight room -- I remarked to a friend during last week's game at Carolina that it was interesting that Zoubek has bulked up noticeably over the course of the season and McRoberts hasn't.

Somewhere I remember hearing that Zoubek was on a totally different weight training program than other members of the team. Can someone else verify this?

[greybeard]

That's what I saw, at least, over the course of the season. The second half of the season there were times that he never passed the foul line extended on the offensive end, just saving himself for the other end. There were games, or times in games, when he didn't appear to have his normal lift, which, when it is there, is truly extraordinary, along with the grace with which he stretches out. He seemed cloddish, almost uncoordinated at times.

My view, that back is a problem and might always be. Weight lifting is no answer for him, and, imo, he does not need work on his footwork or even shooting technique.

He needs to find a place of ease in his body, and to learn anew how to do certain elemental tasks. He don't need Pete Newell, he needs a Feldenkrais practitioner. A what, you ask? Your eyes heard me right. A Feldenkrais practitioner. What do they do, you ask. How much time you got? Try four or five Functional Integration sessions then we'll talk.

BTW, if your body kept on letting you down, if you could no longer translate concepts into immediate and effective and graceful and athletic action, that you had known for 18 years or so, and you had had a back operation to make "it" better, only "it" was only the pain, not the ability to ambulate the way you used to, you'd take it out on those around you too.

I bet Feinstein was a real prince to be around when he got in the pool and that shoulder of his didn't function the way it had for years. Sports writers, feh!

[husWagner1983]

...Josh will be a 3 in the league, or maybe a 4, but won't really need to be a back to the basket type of player...

Josh is going to need a somewhat reliable jumpshot to be a "3" in the NBA IMO. Otherwise, people just back off him and its more difficult to drive the ball. It'll be interesting to see how his game translates to the pros. If he develops a reliable jumper I think he'll do well as a "4" by taking the opponent outside. I don't see him as a "3"...guarding the Paul Pierce types...too much quickness. Without a strong postup game he'd have a hard time taking advantage of his size at the "3". All this assumes he goes pro this year. I have no idea.

I do think he'd play better with a little more talent and experience around him next year if he stays. Financially, he probably should have left last year. At the college level he really needs a jumpshot to setup his driving/passing game IMO. I'd love to see him stay and develop the jumper.

[FewFAC]

Boozer didn't have a mid-range jumper at Duke, which cost him a first-round slot. And then it just magically appeared.

Brand too.

[dukelifer]

Boozer didn't have a mid-range jumper at Duke, which cost him a first-round slot. And then it just magically appeared.

Brand too.

Boozer had it but never used it much. He was known as that kind of shooter in High School. Brand did use it. Boozer has the highest FG percentage in Duke history (Brand 2nd) and averaged 18pts a game his junior year. NBA scouts did not think he was explosive enough to warrant a first round pick. Wonder where he would be drafted if they knew then what they know now.

[FewFAC]

Boozer had it but never used it much. He was known as that kind of shooter in High School. Brand did use it. Boozer has the highest FG percentage in Duke history (Brand 2nd) and averaged 18pts a game his junior year. NBA scouts did not think he was explosive enough to warrant a first round pick. Wonder where he would be drafted if they knew then what they know now.

Sorry, I should have clarified: part of the knock was that they could not do it at the next level.