NBA stars who WEREN'T the best player on their college team?

[Lord Ash]

Hey all,

Was just thinking about this; how many serious NBA players were NOT the best player on their COLLEGE team? Anyone know of any examples?

[Chard]

Hey all,

Was just thinking about this; how many serious NBA players were NOT the best player on their COLLEGE team? Anyone know of any examples?

Boozer, Oh-O, Maggetteo.

[VaDukie]

Vince Carter - certainly was no slouch at UNC, but he played second fiddle to Jamison.

[Karl Beem]

John Havlicheck

[Jumbo]

Gilbert Arenas
Richard Jefferson
Paul Pierce (arguably)
Jason Terry
Michael Redd (arguably)
LaMarcus Aldridge
Plus you've got situations like Vince Carter/Antawn Jamison or Rasheed/Stackouse, where it's not clear who was better in college.

Those are just a few off the top of my head.

[phaedrus]

Lebron James
Amare Stoudemire
Kobe Bryant
Kevin Garnett
Tony Parker
Dwight Howard
Manu Ginobili
Dirk Nowitzki

Sorry for being a smart-^$%^$%^$%.

[Duvall]

Gilbert Arenas
Richard Jefferson

Surely not both.

[ugadevil]

Zach Randolph/Jason Richardson (I think they were on the same team?)
Andre Iguodala
Ben Gordon (played with Okafor)
Kirk Hinrich (alongside Gooden and Collison)

[hurleyfor3]

Shavlik Ra... just kidding.

[hc5duke]

Joe Forte
Brendan Haywood
Rashad McCants

Oh wait, I read the question backwards...

[hurleyfor3]

No mention of Jalen Rose yet

[phaedrus]

Not sure if Deron Williams was definitively considered the best on his team. Dee Brown and Luther Head were also All-Americans.

[CDu]

Drexler (Olajuwon)
Boozer
Maggette
Redd
Pierce
Randolph
Richardson
Arenas
Jefferson (both were below Michael Wright and Jason Gardner in college)
Juwon Howard
Jalen Rose
Sam Cassell (Bobby Sura, Doug Edwards)
Mookie Blaylock

And a bunch of cases where one of the two was better in college, including:
Jordan/Worthy
Carter/Jamison
Wallace/Stackhouse
Gordon/Okafor
Terry/Bibby

Future considerations:
Felton
Hinrich
Chris Wilcox
Gerald Wallace

[phaedrus]

One of Luol Deng or Chris Duhon.

[CDu]

One of Luol Deng or Chris Duhon.

Duhon isn't an NBA star by any means. I left Deng off because I think he was the best player on our team that year.

[Olympic Fan]

And a bunch of cases where one of the two was better in college, including:
Jordan/Worthy
Carter/Jamison
Wallace/Stackhouse
Gordon/Okafor
Terry/Bibby


Just to be clear -- Jordan and Worthy played together one season and in that season, there was no question who the best player was -- Worthy won a national player of the year award, was one vote shy of unanimous first-team All-ACC and was the Final Four MVP -- Jordan was ACC rookie of the year, but wasn't even second-team All-ACC. He didn't explode as a superstar until the next season, after Worthy's departure.

There was also no doubt about the Carter-Jamison situation at UNC. Jamison was the star -- three-time first-team All-ACC and ACC POY as a junior. Carter, who came in the same class, was the talented guy who struggled to fit Dean's system. He didn't start as a freshman. He was third-team All-ACC as a soph and finally made first-team All-ACC as a junior (although he finished well behind Jamison and Georgia Tech's Matt Harpring in the All-ACC voting).

Since Carter and Jamison played together for all three years at college, I would think that Carter would be a poster boy for an NBA star who was never the best player on his college team. While Jordan wasn't as good as Worthy in their one year together, he did have two years as UNC's clearcut star.

That brings up Sam Perkins. He's no longer in the league, but he played like 18 years and was an all-star a number of times. He played four years at UNC and was never their best player. As a freshman in 1981, he was great -- but he played third fiddle to Al Woods and Worthy. As a sophomore, he was a first-team All-American -- but he played second-fiddle to Worthy (ahead of Jordan). He repeated as an All-American in 1983 and 1984, but in those years, he played second-fiddle to Jordan, who had leapt past him.

All in all, I'd say Perkins was the Lou Gehrig of the ACC's greatest players (although at least Gehrig had one season between Ruth and DiMaggio where he was the team's biggest star)..

The earlier mention of Havlicek is right on -- at Ohio State, he was the team's No. 2 option behind classmate Jerry Lucas, who was all-everything in college. Off the top of my head, he's the only Hall of Famer I can think of who was the clearcut No. 2 guy in college (maybe KC Jones, if he's in the Hall -- and he played second fiddle to Bill Russell).

A couple of Duke guys beyond Boozer qualify for mention. Jeff Mullins, who to this day remains Duke's all-time leading NBA scorer, was second-fiddle to Art Heyman for two of his three years (although he became the star as a senior in 1964). And Grant Hill, Duke's most successful modern pro, played third-fiddle on Duke's 1991 and 1992 title teams ... even in 1993 when he and Hurley were co-leaders, Grant finished behind Bobby in the All-ACC vote and for All-America honors (Bobby was consensus first-team; Grant was consensus second team). Only as a senior did Grant become the team's unquestioned star.

[darthur]

Surely not both.

Both Jefferson and Arenas went pro after the 2001 season. You can see the Arizona starters' stats from 2001 here: http://espn.go.com/ncb/ncaatourney01/teams/12.html. I'd say that Michael Wright has the best stats out of the five. I also remember Loren Woods being hyped up a lot at the time.

[Clipsfan]

That Zona team really did have a talented roster, didn't it? It was a good thing that Arenas was injured in the game against us and still insisted on bombing away. If you've seen his lines from early this season, you'll notice that nothing has changed. He's hurt, and still bombing away (and still missing).

[mapei]

Dikembe Motumbo.

[ugadevil]

That Zona team really did have a talented roster, didn't it? It was a good thing that Arenas was injured in the game against us and still insisted on bombing away. If you've seen his lines from early this season, you'll notice that nothing has changed. He's hurt, and still bombing away (and still missing).


I think you could put together a NBA Playoff team from the two rosters in that National Championship game with Duke and Arizona.
Gilbert Arenas
Richard Jefferson
Luke Walton
Shane Battier
Carlos Boozer
Mike Dunleavy
Chris Duhon
Coach K

Team chemistry would certainly be an issue seeing as how Gilbert would just try and score 50 every game to prove to Coach K that he still belongs on the national team.

[VaDukie]

I think you could put together a NBA Playoff team from the two rosters in that National Championship game with Duke and Arizona.
Gilbert Arenas
Richard Jefferson
Luke Walton
Shane Battier
Carlos Boozer
Mike Dunleavy
Chris Duhon
Coach K

Team chemistry would certainly be an issue seeing as how Gilbert would just try and score 50 every game to prove to Coach K that he still belongs on the national team.


That team would be a little frontcourt heavy with only two real guards, but you could argue that Arenas, Boozer, and Jefferson would be the NBA's best trio outside of Boston and San Antonio.

[CDu]

Just to be clear -- Jordan and Worthy played together one season and in that season, there was no question who the best player was -- Worthy won a national player of the year award, was one vote shy of unanimous first-team All-ACC and was the Final Four MVP -- Jordan was ACC rookie of the year, but wasn't even second-team All-ACC. He didn't explode as a superstar until the next season, after Worthy's departure.

There was also no doubt about the Carter-Jamison situation at UNC. Jamison was the star -- three-time first-team All-ACC and ACC POY as a junior. Carter, who came in the same class, was the talented guy who struggled to fit Dean's system. He didn't start as a freshman. He was third-team All-ACC as a soph and finally made first-team All-ACC as a junior (although he finished well behind Jamison and Georgia Tech's Matt Harpring in the All-ACC voting).

Since Carter and Jamison played together for all three years at college, I would think that Carter would be a poster boy for an NBA star who was never the best player on his college team. While Jordan wasn't as good as Worthy in their one year together, he did have two years as UNC's clearcut star.

That brings up Sam Perkins. He's no longer in the league, but he played like 18 years and was an all-star a number of times. He played four years at UNC and was never their best player. As a freshman in 1981, he was great -- but he played third fiddle to Al Woods and Worthy. As a sophomore, he was a first-team All-American -- but he played second-fiddle to Worthy (ahead of Jordan). He repeated as an All-American in 1983 and 1984, but in those years, he played second-fiddle to Jordan, who had leapt past him.

All in all, I'd say Perkins was the Lou Gehrig of the ACC's greatest players (although at least Gehrig had one season between Ruth and DiMaggio where he was the team's biggest star)..


With regard to Jordan, yes, that was more my bias against the laziness people have had with calling him among the all-time great college players. And yes, Carter was very much in Jamison's college shadow.

As for Perkins, I think you've vastly overrated his NBA stardom. For one, he actually never made an All-Star team. He was the classic NBA underachiever - widely regarded as way more talented than his production would have suggested. He never made it to star status in the NBA (was always just a solid complementary player), and that's why I didn't include him.

[wilson]

That team would be a little frontcourt heavy with only two real guards, but you could argue that Arenas, Boozer, and Jefferson would be the NBA's best trio outside of Boston and San Antonio.

I guess we're assuming that this team doesn't get to pull the pre-accident Jason Williams from that game? Because that would make a playoff squad, no doubt.

[Olympic Fan]

As for Perkins, I think you've vastly overrated his NBA stardom. For one, he actually never made an All-Star team. He was the classic NBA underachiever - widely regarded as way more talented than his production would have suggested. He never made it to star status in the NBA (was always just a solid complementary player), and that's why I didn't include him.

You are right about Perkins never making an all-star game and you may be right about him being regarded as an underachiever -- my knowledge of the college game is a good bit better than what I know about the NBA.

Still, when I check Basketball Reference, I see that Perkins did play 17 years in the NBA and he averaged between 11 and 17 points in the first 13 of those years. His rebounding was good and he emerged as a major 3-point threat. He played 167 playoff games in his career, starting over 100 of them.

That might not be a star, but I think it qualifies as "a serious NBA player", which was the original premise of this thread.

And FWIW, Sam Perkins was a GREAT college player with a better career at UNC than Carter, Stackhouse, Wallace and maybe even Jamison (although he did have a NPOY award that Sam didn't).

[CDu]

You are right about Perkins never making an all-star game and you may be right about him being regarded as an underachiever -- my knowledge of the college game is a good bit better than what I know about the NBA.

Still, when I check Basketball Reference, I see that Perkins did play 17 years in the NBA and he averaged between 11 and 17 points in the first 13 of those years. His rebounding was good and he emerged as a major 3-point threat. He played 167 playoff games in his career, starting over 100 of them.

That might not be a star, but I think it qualifies as "a serious NBA player", which was the original premise of this thread.

And FWIW, Sam Perkins was a GREAT college player with a better career at UNC than Carter, Stackhouse, Wallace and maybe even Jamison (although he did have a NPOY award that Sam didn't).

Ah, the discrepancy between the title of the original post and the text in the original post. I took "serious NBA player" to be just another way of saying star (which was in the title). If you downgrade to the more nebulous "serious NBA player," then the list would get more extensive, and should certainly include Perkins.

I was just saying that Perkins didn't come close to star status in the NBA (though he certainly had the talent to do so). I completely agree that he was a productive player for a long time.

[Classof06]

Duhon isn't an NBA star by any means. I left Deng off because I think he was the best player on our team that year.

I agree, by the end of the year, Deng was the best player on that team.

[phaedrus]

I agree, by the end of the year, Deng was the best player on that team.

Maybe so - that's why I said Deng or Duhon (who qualifies as a serious player, not as an NBA star).

But as conversation fodder, here are the All-ACC teams from '04.

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/031004aan.html

1st team - Duhon
2nd team - Williams and Redick
3rd team - Deng
Honorable mention - Ewing

All defensive team - Duhon and Williams

[dkbaseball]

Just to clarify: Do you mean at any time in their college careers? For example, Kevin McHale played second fiddle to Mychal Thompson for two years, as did Gail Goodrich to Walt Hazzard. But they eventually emerged as the man on their college teams.

[CDu]

Maybe so - that's why I said Deng or Duhon (who qualifies as a serious player, not as an NBA star).



I think you're loosely defining serious player to include Duhon in that list. He's an NBA backup (a very decent NBA backup, but a backup nonetheless). The idea behind this thread was guys who've gone from being second-fiddle in college to upper-tier/stars in the NBA. Duhon doesn't fit that description. If we're going to include decent NBA backups, then the list becomes REALLY long and the thread becomes fairly uninteresting.

[lavell12]

Gilbert Arenas
Richard Jefferson
Paul Pierce (arguably)
Jason Terry
Michael Redd (arguably)
LaMarcus Aldridge
Plus you've got situations like Vince Carter/Antawn Jamison or Rasheed/Stackouse, where it's not clear who was better in college.

Those are just a few off the top of my head.

Arenas and Jefferson were both on the Arizona team Duke beat for the NCAA Championship in 2001, and there wasn't anyone better then them so atleast one was the best player on that team. I think Jefferson was better then Arenas in college.

[throatybeard]

I think you're loosely defining serious player to include Duhon in that list. He's an NBA backup (a very decent NBA backup, but a backup nonetheless). The idea behind this thread was guys who've gone from being second-fiddle in college to upper-tier/stars in the NBA. Duhon doesn't fit that description. If we're going to include decent NBA backups, then the list becomes REALLY long and the thread becomes fairly uninteresting.

And this is from the guy who calls himself CDu. I would listen to him.