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RockChalk
11-13-2007, 06:38 PM
So I'm watching Duke/N Mexico State last night and was pretty impressed with your freshmen. But I noticed one thing and wanted to run it by you Dukies.
Duke players are known for their hustle plays and diving on the floor. It gets Cameron going crazy and pumped up. Obviously the coaches push hustling more than most other teams. But I noticed that there were times when your players dove for no reason or way too late and it was almost like they were doing it just to say they dove. Maybe it was to get the crowd pumped or to impress the coaching staff. I'm not even saying there is anything wrong with it and maybe it was just because it was the opening game and they wanted to get a floorburn.
Has anyone else noticed this?

Wander
11-13-2007, 06:47 PM
I think the posters here are probably going to riot against you for suggesting this beakem...

JBDuke
11-13-2007, 07:02 PM
So I'm watching Duke/N Mexico State last night and was pretty impressed with your freshmen. But I noticed one thing and wanted to run it by you Dukies.
Duke players are known for their hustle plays and diving on the floor. It gets Cameron going crazy and pumped up. Obviously the coaches push hustling more than most other teams. But I noticed that there were times when your players dove for no reason or way too late and it was almost like they were doing it just to say they dove. Maybe it was to get the crowd pumped or to impress the coaching staff. I'm not even saying there is anything wrong with it and maybe it was just because it was the opening game and they wanted to get a floorburn.
Has anyone else noticed this?

No, and to insinuate this is the basest form of anti-Duke bias. Tread very carefully or risk being banned for trolling.

Coach K preaches that you give it all on every play, which is why our guys hustle even when they're up by 50 against a team playing their first game in Division I. I applaud the effort of our guys to get on the floor and go after it.

Such showboating, as you imply, would be the antithesis of the Duke spirit - putting self before team.

I am closing this thread as a pre-emptive measure to ensure things don't get out of hand.

shadowfax336
11-13-2007, 08:07 PM
Did we really just completely close down a thread because somebody had the audacity to suggest that our players were showboating?
I admit that the point was silly, but saying it was "the basest form of anti-Duke bias" is a little extreme and just makes us come off as defensive and closed to criticism.

DukeCO2009
11-13-2007, 08:07 PM
The thread is totally inane, but yeah--why close it?

phaedrus
11-13-2007, 08:13 PM
It could have been transparent trolling if it had come from a brand new poster, but RockChalk has posted before and I don't question his intentions.

I don't agree with the premise of his thread, but I don't think the topic is beneath discussing.

Jumbo
11-13-2007, 08:18 PM
I can't speak for JBDuke, but I believe he was trying to head-off a potential flame war before it ever happened. Really, how could anyone respond to such a post? I'm not saying RockChalk is a troll -- I would guess he/she isn't -- but the thread was certainly trolling in nature.

pratt '04
11-13-2007, 08:21 PM
I think it could have been a valid discussion too.

I definitely remember my senior year ('03-'04) it seemed that Chris Duhon would end up jumping into the stands every single game. My friends and I thought that he would jump into the Cameron Crazies even if he was capable of saving the ball while staying on the court because he knew it got the crowd really pumped up. And there was nothing wrong with that... it did get us totally pumped!

dukeisawesome
11-13-2007, 08:22 PM
I happen to think diving for loose balls and hustling even when unnecessary benefits you in the long run. A lot of times when people complain about how Duke gets calls they completely overlook the fact that Duke set an aggressive tone the whole game by diving and hustling.

RockChalk
11-13-2007, 08:23 PM
Thanks for those who stuck up for me. First of all, I want to say that I have the highest respect for Duke, their fans, their coaches and their players. My KU friends even make fun of me for owning a Duke hat (it was on sale).
Secondly, I wasn't saying it as a negative thing. I was merely asking if anyone else noticed it. I thought I noticed something during the game and wanted to see if someone else did.
Is it so bad to analyze a possible weakness on your team? Brandon Rush can't go to his left......I accept it and actually make fun of him for it.

Please don't think I'm here to "troll". You all said when I first joined how interesting it would be to hear an "outsiders" opinion on Duke basketball. Well don't get upset when you read about an opinion (especially one that isn't even negative).

jlear
11-13-2007, 08:28 PM
I just dove on the floor of my office and I am totally pumped....maybe I should do some work instead of spending so much time on DBR.

LetItBD08
11-13-2007, 08:52 PM
I was going to comment on this in the other thread, but I guess this is the place to give my two cents:

Yes, there are times when it appears that at Duke player makes an ill-advised dive. Sometimes, however, what seems ill-advised to me ends up being a spectacular play (a redirection, flat out steal, saving the ball from going out, etc.). Sometimes it does not. There's no way of actually quantifying this, but I think considering the momentum/psychological effects and that flat out potential to gain that extra possession, it is a good way to play the game. I don't think they do it just to say they dove; I think this is the type of attitude that is instilled in them by the coaching staff and why I think the coaches are top notch (it's not always about x's and o's).

feldspar
11-13-2007, 08:54 PM
Must.....resist.....

JBDuke
11-13-2007, 09:00 PM
I can't speak for JBDuke, but I believe he was trying to head-off a potential flame war before it ever happened. Really, how could anyone respond to such a post? I'm not saying RockChalk is a troll -- I would guess he/she isn't -- but the thread was certainly trolling in nature.

Jumbo is exactly right. We have a lot of new posters on the board right now that don't have much of a clue about DBR culture. Jumbo's new sticky thread is trying to address some of that. Meanwhile, several of the mods are trying to ensure that this board stays true to the visions of its owners.

I am not accusing RockChalk of being a troll, and I'm glad to have generally sane folks from other schools participating in our forums. However, I felt that even suggesting that our hard working players were showboating to impress the coaching staff shows a woeful lack of insight into the effort that was being expended. And the final question - "Has anyone else noticed this?" - essentially attempts to validate the question as an observation of truth, rather than a speculation about motive. Furthermore, I felt, especially given the preponderance of new posters that aren't familiar with DBR culture, we might get testy reactions that would quickly lead to something ugly.

So, I have reopened the original thread and merged these together, since the question had become moot, and I have deleted posts that were solely about the moderation and not about the original question.

Please note, however, that I will be keeping a close eye on this thread and will quickly delete the entire thing if it heads down the flame war path.

77devil
11-13-2007, 09:01 PM
Some of the mods have an extemely low tolerance for criticism of Duke b ball and an exagerated sense of self importance in performing their role imo. I would prefer less censorship, but it's J & B's site and the mods are empowered to regulate the traffic. So be it.

Lord Ash
11-13-2007, 09:01 PM
I've never, EVER seen anyone dive on the floor just to impress someone. Floor burns HURT.

tombrady
11-13-2007, 09:11 PM
Jumbo is exactly right. We have a lot of new posters on the board right now that don't have much of a clue about DBR culture. Jumbo's new sticky thread is trying to address some of that. Meanwhile, several of the mods are trying to ensure that this board stays true to the visions of its owners.

I am not accusing RockChalk of being a troll, and I'm glad to have generally sane folks from other schools participating in our forums. However, I felt that even suggesting that our hard working players were showboating to impress the coaching staff shows a woeful lack of insight into the effort that was being expended. And the final question - "Has anyone else noticed this?" - essentially attempts to validate the question as an observation of truth, rather than a speculation about motive. Furthermore, I felt, especially given the preponderance of new posters that aren't familiar with DBR culture, we might get testy reactions that would quickly lead to something ugly.

So, I have reopened the original thread and merged these together, since the question had become moot, and I have deleted posts that were solely about the moderation and not about the original question.

Please note, however, that I will be keeping a close eye on this thread and will quickly delete the entire thing if it heads down the flame war path.

Completely disagree. Sorry, but I do. If you're a freshman trying to impress the coaches, and in your 9 minutes of PT you have a chance to lay out on the floor for a few balls that you probably can't get...why wouldn't you?

I certainly see some dives for balls that might be a bit excessive. Up 23 points early in the second half, why dive for a ball?

That Duhon injury when he went flying into a camera didn't play out too well in the NCAAs.

Channing
11-13-2007, 09:18 PM
i dont think there is any showing off . . . I just think it is "over-hustle." The palyers are drilled to give their all so much, that sometimes they go all out when they should hold back. As a result they dive for a ball at half court or go for a steal (or in Shelden's case, man up a center 30 feet from the basket and pick up a hip-check foul), get out of position leading to 5-4 opportunities for the other team.

I would obviously prefer too much hustle than not enough hustle. Watching highlights from some other teams early in this season it is very obvious that not everyone values defense like Duke.

I can live with the occasional cheap bucket by the opposing team instead of defense that occasionally takes a possession off.

rsvman
11-13-2007, 09:35 PM
I took "Has anyone else noticed this?" as an honest question. I think RockChalk was saying that he thought he saw it happening, and probably thought that if nobody else saw it, maybe he was imagining things.

Additionally, asking for others' opinions is pretty much what people do on bulletin boards, regardless of the topic.

Johnboy
11-13-2007, 09:36 PM
I thought RockChalk carefully framed his observation to avoid appearing as a troll. I don't think he is, and appreciate views of other schools' fans. I, for one, will be observing this for the next few games to see whether he has a point. I doubt I'd ever seek a floorburn, but it not impossible that a player would want to impress a coach in that way.

The problem, as I see it, is that diving after a ball when there is no chance to get it would take the player out of the play until he recovered, leaving the other team at an advantage. A player that did this very often would probably get in trouble with the coaching staff, because it's poor defense when you miss and thereby take yourself out of the play. This is why I doubt it happens - but with young guys still learning the system it's certainly not impossible.

When I was a freshman (1981-82 season), we were bad, and had little prospect of getting better. Coach K had been at Duke for 1 year. After a particularly bad home loss (App. State, probably), in which the team didn't hustle to Coach K's satisfaction, he and the assistant coaches spent an entire practice rolling balls out on the floor and having the guys dive on them. My work-study job was in Card Gym, and Max Crowder, the trainer, came down after that practice and described the carnage. The guys hustled after that, to say the least. At any rate, if you play for Duke, you'd better hustle if you want minutes. I can't imagine that foolish diving just to try to impress the coaches would help, but if there's a loose ball in your zip code, you'd better go for it.

RockChalk
11-13-2007, 09:41 PM
Completely disagree. Sorry, but I do. If you're a freshman trying to impress the coaches, and in your 9 minutes of PT you have a chance to lay out on the floor for a few balls that you probably can't get...why wouldn't you?

I certainly see some dives for balls that might be a bit excessive. Up 23 points early in the second half, why dive for a ball?

That Duhon injury when he went flying into a camera didn't play out too well in the NCAAs.


That's exactly what I was trying to say. Duke plays alot of players the last two years and it's not because they are ALL McDonald's All-Americans. They are all fighting for PT and an extra dive might help them get it. Wojo was KNOWN for diving and was one of my favorite college basketball players ever so it's not like I'm against hustle. I was just bringing up a topic. I thought that was what a message board was for.
Thanks to those who stayed open-minded and had an opinion on it.

captmojo
11-13-2007, 09:43 PM
Diving for loose balls is a hustle play in an attempt to gain possession of the ball. Nobody is successful 100% of the time and help defense allows for players to make steal attempts. Getting the attention of the crowd and the coaching staff is only a by-product of the hustle, not the intent.

tombrady
11-13-2007, 09:51 PM
Diving for loose balls is a hustle play in an attempt to gain possession of the ball. Nobody is successful 100% of the time and help defense allows for players to make steal attempts. Getting the attention of the crowd and the coaching staff is only a by-product of the hustle, not the intent.

I don't really think you know this though.

Honestly, just put yourself in the 9th or 10th man's position. Why the heck wouldn't you dive for a random ball? Because of a little floor burn on your knee that will hurt for a few hours? C'mon, get real.

I'm not saying all this diving is bad -- i mean, it gets the other players to hustle too, an upward spiral if you will.

But it does happen. Its not "anti-duke" to admit it.

captmojo
11-13-2007, 10:02 PM
I don't really think you know this though.

Honestly, just put yourself in the 9th or 10th man's position. Why the heck wouldn't you dive for a random ball? Because of a little floor burn on your knee that will hurt for a few hours? C'mon, get real.

I'm not saying all this diving is bad -- i mean, it gets the other players to hustle too, an upward spiral if you will.

But it does happen. Its not "anti-duke" to admit it.

If it happens merely to gain PT, I rest assured it's not that the coaching staff is teaching it for that reason. I tend to believe they would know BS when they see it.

feldspar
11-13-2007, 10:09 PM
I took "Has anyone else noticed this?" as an honest question.

Ditto.

Frankly, it scares me that this is a red flag for the moderation team.

evrdukie
11-13-2007, 10:19 PM
I have to say my jaw dropped when I read some of these posts. Threatening to silence someone because disagrees with a moderator or another commentator? Jeez!

rthomas
11-13-2007, 10:19 PM
RockChalk,
I would say that this is an extremely stupid thread to start two games into the season. If the trend you observe continues, ok, talk to me in February. But two games into the season, get real.

DU82
11-13-2007, 10:21 PM
So I'm watching Duke/N Mexico State last night and was pretty impressed with your freshmen. But I noticed one thing and wanted to run it by you Dukies.
Duke players are known for their hustle plays and diving on the floor. It gets Cameron going crazy and pumped up. Obviously the coaches push hustling more than most other teams. But I noticed that there were times when your players dove for no reason or way too late and it was almost like they were doing it just to say they dove. Maybe it was to get the crowd pumped or to impress the coaching staff. I'm not even saying there is anything wrong with it and maybe it was just because it was the opening game and they wanted to get a floorburn.
Has anyone else noticed this?

I didn't notice as much "useless" diving last night, although I agree it does happen at times. I did notice during previous games that players didn't hustle after the ball that they might have gotten to, and their coaches were not happy. I believe it happened with NMS, and after the ball went OB, their coach told one of the subs ready to go in to sub for the guy who didn't hustle after the ball, instead of whoever he was about to sub for. The guy who went out got an earful.

Let's face it, it does pump up the crowd, and gets you remembered, either by fans or the coaches. For instance, people still talk about Derek Jeter diving into the stands a couple of years ago.

greybeard
11-13-2007, 10:21 PM
Interesting thread.

Decent question, it seems to me. What's up with all the diving?

Seems to me at least four things can happen when you dive and only one of em is good. I guess blue skin is a bit thin; tough like an muscrat's hide (don't ask), but thin.

I thought that the showing was great. The season threatens to provide a lot of excitement. Like the up tempo, really like the half court offense, and completely dig giving lots of exceptional players a shot.

As for the dives, the level of difficulty wasn't there, but, in the belly flop category, all 5s (they do measure those on a five point system, right, or is that triple toe loops I'm confusing it with.)

Please, nothing I said here was the least bit serious. BTW, what the heck is trolling. Oh, I remember, they wrote a song about it back a few years--"wella bless my soul, how I love to troll." Later.

rthomas
11-13-2007, 10:42 PM
This begs the question: who was the best Duke diver for the ball (since we started the trend)?

I'd have to say Wojo. I remember a few by Trajan that were memorable.

RockChalk
11-13-2007, 10:46 PM
RockChalk,
I would say that this is an extremely stupid thread to start two games into the season. If the trend you observe continues, ok, talk to me in February. But two games into the season, get real.


It's stupid to have an opinion on a message board?............hell i thought that was Dukes first game. I didn't realize it was their second. What does it matter when I say it? It's an observation.

RockChalk
11-13-2007, 10:49 PM
This begs the question: who was the best Duke diver for the ball (since we started the trend)?

I'd have to say Wojo. I remember a few by Trajan that were memorable.


Wojo......no doubt about it.

feldspar
11-13-2007, 10:55 PM
RockChalk,
I would say that this is an extremely stupid thread to start two games into the season. If the trend you observe continues, ok, talk to me in February. But two games into the season, get real.

Can you explain why it makes a difference when during the season the post refers to? I don't get it.

RochChalk was making an observation about a specific game, and events that occured during that game. Why would he wait until the middle of the season to bring it up? Makes no sense to me.

zingit
11-13-2007, 10:58 PM
I think another benefit to diving is psychological: you show other teams that you mean business, and they've got to take Duke seriously (or any other team that hustles a lot). It gets in their heads a little bit. And I suppose it is symbolic to the players on our own team as well. The older players have got to teach the younger players the culture of hustling and bringing your A game every time, whether it's NMSU or UNC.

OZ
11-13-2007, 11:03 PM
Please note, however, that I will be keeping a close eye on this thread and will quickly delete the entire thing if it heads down the flame war path.



Thanks. I can sleep a lot better now.

rthomas
11-13-2007, 11:05 PM
Can you explain why it makes a difference when during the season the post refers to? I don't get it.

RochChalk was making an observation about a specific game, and events that occured during that game. Why would he wait until the middle of the season to bring it up? Makes no sense to me.

Because one game doesn't make a trend, especially if we're winning by 20 points at the time. It's like making a bad pass when you are blowing out an opponent.

Now,if you observe that Duke players are diving for no reason over 5-10 games, it becomes a statistic. An n=1 just doesn't mean anything at this point in the season.

RelativeWays
11-14-2007, 12:14 AM
This is not unlike all the Duke detractors whining and complaining about the "flop" charges Battier and Co. made vogue 7 years ago, though not as pronounced. Battier didn't event the charge but he knew how to use it effectively, just like any big man worth his salt (like Shelden and Hansbrough even) know how to draw fouls. I'm not sure how much ulterior motive there would be for diving for a loose ball, but it does have benefits like firing up the crowd and showing the coaching staff you're not afraid to get a floor burn or a busted chin.

BTW, RockChalk, I'm not accusing you of whining or complaining. This thread just reminded me of that.

feldspar
11-14-2007, 12:24 AM
Because one game doesn't make a trend

Who said anything about a trend?

EarlJam
11-14-2007, 12:36 AM
I just dove on the floor of my office and I am totally pumped....maybe I should do some work instead of spending so much time on DBR.

Awesome. Inspired by your post, I just ripped my shirt off and dove onto my carpeted floor in anticipation of going into work tomorrow! Bring on the client activity reports! YES!!!!!!

-EarlJam

gep
11-14-2007, 12:43 AM
Didn't Kobe go diving for a loose ball near the beginning of their first game this past summer? All the talk was of how Kobe was showing how much he cared, and was willing to put his body on the floor. Of course, he did get the ball on that "dive"... but was called for traveling... and was not "simply diving".

Also, Larry Bird was known for "diving" for loose balls. IIRC, he said that he was told that if he continued to "dive", he'll shorten his NBA career. He ended up with a bad back, but I don't know how much the "diving" had to do with it.

In any case, I think "diving" for loose balls shows commitment, and caring to do your best. I think that any "showing coaches" is really "showing hustle", and total commitment to hustle and the team.

I thought RockChalk initial post was reasonable. I think he really posted his view and thoughts... and was looking for comment.

Thanks....

greybeard
11-14-2007, 12:55 AM
I think another benefit to diving is psychological: you show other teams that you mean business, and they've got to take Duke seriously (or any other team that hustles a lot). It gets in their heads a little bit. And I suppose it is symbolic to the players on our own team as well. The older players have got to teach the younger players the culture of hustling and bringing your A game every time, whether it's NMSU or UNC.

Sometimes guys don't like people trying to intimidate them. Could, against a rough bunch of guys, backfire. Even against a not so rough bunch of guys who don't distinguish between hard hustle plays and cheap shots. Depends on how lucky you are, I guess.

So, "Do you feel lucky today, buster. Well do you?" Dirty Harry.

My bet, the next little that comes to Cameron pays John Channey to sit on the bench and it stops. Hope they're reading this in Ithaca. ;)

Wander
11-14-2007, 01:31 AM
Sometimes guys don't like people trying to intimidate them. Could, against a rough bunch of guys, backfire.


Not to mention the more tangible disadvantage - if you save the ball from going out of bounds, but the other team grabs it, they have a 5 on 4 for at least a few seconds.



My bet, the next little that comes to Cameron pays John Channey to sit on the bench and it stops. Hope they're reading this in Ithaca.

I actually was at Cornell's season opener. They played well the entire game, and then, at the end, Lehigh started pressing, and Cornell almost blew a 15 point lead in the final minute and a half or so. Translation: they are going to get slaughtered by Duke's pressure.

sandinmyshoes
11-14-2007, 07:32 AM
I have actually noticed over the years what the original post pointed out. It always seems noticable at the beginning of the year and has sometimes made me worry about injuries. I have suspected that it was just the energy of a fresh season with an effort by the players to show the hustle demanded of them.

I figure that early in the season a lot of things a player does on the court is not yet automatic. That is why sometimes the games look mechanical or clunky. And in the case of hustle, I think they just suddenly remember "Oh, that's right, hustle!"

It generally seems to fade into a more natural hustle by late December.

Of course, I could be over thinking it.

jacone21
11-14-2007, 09:09 AM
I think the reason those kids dive for every loose ball is as follows. If there is a loose ball that K thinks they can get, and they don't make every effort to get it, they will pay dearly in practice for that lack of effort. They know that. So maybe they dive for a few they have no chance of getting, but that beats the heck out of being perceived as not trying. Now, Duhon diving into the 6th row of Crazies, well that's another story.

ArnieMc
11-14-2007, 11:02 AM
Diving for loose balls is a skill. It's early in the season, and they need practice. They need to find out what works and what doesn't work along with the rest of their game. I would hope that they would dive for a few "impossible" saves just for the practice.

hughgs
11-14-2007, 12:53 PM
So I'm watching Duke/N Mexico State last night and was pretty impressed with your freshmen. But I noticed one thing and wanted to run it by you Dukies.
Duke players are known for their hustle plays and diving on the floor. It gets Cameron going crazy and pumped up. Obviously the coaches push hustling more than most other teams. But I noticed that there were times when your players dove for no reason or way too late and it was almost like they were doing it just to say they dove. Maybe it was to get the crowd pumped or to impress the coaching staff. I'm not even saying there is anything wrong with it and maybe it was just because it was the opening game and they wanted to get a floorburn.
Has anyone else noticed this?

I'll comment as a someone who played a different sport that also required diving on the floor, volleyball. As someone who did a lot of diving it was simply what you did if you thought there was the slightest chance of getting the ball. And I thought I could get to every ball. There's no thinking, there's only the ball. And the difference between my defense and someone else who didn't dive for balls was evident as soon as play started.

SilkyJ
11-14-2007, 01:36 PM
Has anyone else noticed this?

J-Hawk,

I have noticed this, especially amongst the underclassmen, and while I don't think it is a "showboating" thing, I do think it is partially to get the attention of the coaches, and also to be a "dukie."

I also think there is an analogy to be drawn here with our defense and overplaying the passing lanes:

Sometimes I do think we should maybe not dive for a ball or go for a steal, but on the other hand, that's what makes us Duke. We give 110% on every play and sometimes we pay for it, meaning, if we overplay a passing lane and go for a steal and juuuuuust miss it well now we've overrun the play and its essentially 5 on 4 until that person can get back on D, and sometimes that will lead to an easy bucket for our opponent. But in most games I think it works out for us as we get more turnovers than give up easy buckets.

Same with hustling/diving: it may cost us a couple times if we dive and dont get the ball (now we have to get up and run back on D, and while we were doing that, the other team may have scored) but on the other hand hopefully that hustle will lead to us getting more loose balls and TOs than the other team...

But yes, I have noticed this but I only think its primarily from underclassmen and a desire to do things "the duke way." I guarantee you the upperclassmen are hustling and diving on the floor in practice and pickup games (not to the same extent necessarily) so this rubs off on the underclassmen.

Sorry you had to take grief, but you have to understand that we get a lot of trollers around here and more often that not this type of post is from a troller. Glad to have you around though :)

Turtleboy
11-14-2007, 02:01 PM
That Duhon injury when he went flying into a camera didn't play out too well in the NCAAs.I was at that game. Duhon had a zero chance of touching that ball, much less controlling it and getting it to a team mate. When it happened, I said to my companion "there goes the National Championship."

There is no doubt in my mind that he was not diving just to make am impression. However, I do think that Duke players dive for more balls than is necessary. Make of that what you will.

Virginian
11-14-2007, 04:27 PM
One of the fun things about the Tank comic strip is the constant theme of him trying to "recover a fumble" every time a dinner roll falls off the table or a kid drops a toy from a passing stroller. The point is that after years of playing competitive football he can't get over the training that even now, many years after his playing career has ended, leads him to instinctively dive for anything that reminds him of a fumble in a game.

I think Duke players are so well trained to go after EVERY lose ball that they can't stop themselves. Nor do the coaches want them to be "wasting time" thinking "gee, I wonder if I can get that ball or not," or "gee, we're 30 points up; no reason to risk hurting myself diving when we don't really need it." The players are drilled and drilled to dive whenever there's a lose ball in their vicinity. No matter when, no matter what. That's what the coaches want; that's what the players do.

I think it's just that simple.

RockChalk
11-14-2007, 06:53 PM
J-Hawk,

I have noticed this, especially amongst the underclassmen, and while I don't think it is a "showboating" thing, I do think it is partially to get the attention of the coaches, and also to be a "dukie."

I also think there is an analogy to be drawn here with our defense and overplaying the passing lanes:

Sometimes I do think we should maybe not dive for a ball or go for a steal, but on the other hand, that's what makes us Duke. We give 110% on every play and sometimes we pay for it, meaning, if we overplay a passing lane and go for a steal and juuuuuust miss it well now we've overrun the play and its essentially 5 on 4 until that person can get back on D, and sometimes that will lead to an easy bucket for our opponent. But in most games I think it works out for us as we get more turnovers than give up easy buckets.

Same with hustling/diving: it may cost us a couple times if we dive and dont get the ball (now we have to get up and run back on D, and while we were doing that, the other team may have scored) but on the other hand hopefully that hustle will lead to us getting more loose balls and TOs than the other team...

But yes, I have noticed this but I only think its primarily from underclassmen and a desire to do things "the duke way." I guarantee you the upperclassmen are hustling and diving on the floor in practice and pickup games (not to the same extent necessarily) so this rubs off on the underclassmen.

Sorry you had to take grief, but you have to understand that we get a lot of trollers around here and more often that not this type of post is from a troller. Glad to have you around though :)


Silky J....thanks for the fantastic reply. And thanks to all those who stayed open-minded enough to realize I wasn't criticizing.
I actually had a thought today at work on this subject. I wish I would have compared Duke hustle to Houston's Phi Slamma Jamma dunking too much and missing a few dunks because they tried too hard for the dunk. It's a good thing but could hurt them if they miss instead of going for the easy layup.

And the comment on Battier flopping......it's not a "flop" when the refs call a charge, it's just a charge. If it works, so be it.

greybeard
11-14-2007, 07:36 PM
Silky J....thanks for the fantastic reply. And thanks to all those who stayed open-minded enough to realize I wasn't criticizing.
I actually had a thought today at work on this subject. I wish I would have compared Duke hustle to Houston's Phi Slamma Jamma dunking too much and missing a few dunks because they tried too hard for the dunk. It's a good thing but could hurt them if they miss instead of going for the easy layup.

And the comment on Battier flopping......it's not a "flop" when the refs call a charge, it's just a charge. If it works, so be it.

I hate flops. Dean Smith invented them, you guys do know that. Flopping and four corners have no part in the great game. They took away the four corners with the shot clock. They should take away the flop/charge--the most irritating call the game has ever known. Course, you guys can disagree and continue to honor el Deano.

Some choices are tough--greybeard or el Deano has got to be among the toughest DBR participants have faced in some time. :cool:

MChambers
11-14-2007, 09:17 PM
I hate flops. Dean Smith invented them, you guys do know that. Flopping and four corners have no part in the great game. They took away the four corners with the shot clock. They should take away the flop/charge--the most irritating call the game has ever known. Course, you guys can disagree and continue to honor el Deano.

Some choices are tough--greybeard or el Deano has got to be among the toughest DBR participants have faced in some time. :cool:

I don't like flops either, but at the same time the refs need to call a charge when the defensive player has position. Unfortunately, if you leave your feet, they often won't call the charge. If the refs called it right, there'd be no need to flop. So it's one more thing we can blame on the refs.

Exiled_Devil
11-14-2007, 10:09 PM
I'll comment as a someone who played a different sport that also required diving on the floor, volleyball. As someone who did a lot of diving it was simply what you did if you thought there was the slightest chance of getting the ball. And I thought I could get to every ball. There's no thinking, there's only the ball. And the difference between my defense and someone else who didn't dive for balls was evident as soon as play started.

Who-ha!

As another former voleyballer and an ultimate frisbee player, I can add that diving is a habit that one gets into, and the main reason for it is to go for balls that might be within reach. Sometimes you get it, sometimes you don't. But the more you dive, the more likely you are to get the ball each time.

I did see freshman diving a lot last night, but I attributed that to learning curve. They will get the hang of its things move on.

AS for the meta-conversation here, I don't think the mods were trying to shut you up RockChalk, but rather they anticipated a harsh reaction to your post.

feldspar
11-14-2007, 10:18 PM
I don't like flops either, but at the same time the refs need to call a charge when the defensive player has position. Unfortunately, if you leave your feet, they often won't call the charge. If the refs called it right, there'd be no need to flop. So it's one more thing we can blame on the refs.

Actually, I see it as quite the reverse. It's much harder for the officials to officiate a charge, because players have been taught to flop, and the officials know that.

I also disagree with the generalization that the officials "often" don't call the charge if the player leaves their feet. I see it called quite often (case in point Scheyer's charge drawn in transition where his right foot was moving when contact was made), much to the chagrin of fans and coaches who don't understand the concept of defensive position.