MBB: Duke vs MSU (Tue 12/1 7:30 pm, ESPN) Pre-Game and In-Game Thread

[DavidBenAkiva]

EDIT: Mods, I have screwed up again. Please change the date to 12/1.

The Blue Devils continue their season on Tuesday night facing off against a familiar foe in a very unusual circumstance. Michigan State will play in a mostly empty Cameron Indoor Stadium as part of the Champions Classic. The annual event was originally intended to kick off the college basketball season. Instead, the Spartans will fly to RDU while Kansas and Kentucky will play in Indianapolis. Duke has verbally committed to returning to Lansing in the future. Personally, I hope it takes place next season between two teams that should be ranked atop the polls. That's next year. This year, Duke will look to build of an uneven performance against Coppin State.

Looking at MSU, the roster matches up well against Duke. Each team is deep with versatile wings. MSU features a number of talented wings, although none of them jump out as overwhelming talent. The roster has talent with 7 players ranked in the RSCI top 100 in their respective recruiting classes. However, only senior Joshua Langford was a top 20 player and was ranked 20th in his class. Langford appears to be fully healthy after two seasons of tough breaks. He's a bigger guard that can really shoot the ball. He has a career 3P% over 40% and is better than 80% from the FT line. So far on this young season, he is primarily taking 3's but has shown a more diverse game in the past. The other wings are all shooters, including Marquette transfer Joey Hauser. The 6'9" sophomore hit 45% of his threes as a freshman playing for Wojo, although he is 0-6 on the young season. Hauser knows and has played against Jalen Johnson growing up, so that's a matchup to watch.

Other wings include Aaron Henry, Gabe Brown, and Malik Hall. These three all run about 6'6" and 6'7" with Henry being the more polished of the trio. They each have decent jumpers but are not the shooters that Hauser and Langford are. Still, it would be a good idea to not leave them alone in the corner. Henry is more of a slasher than the the others, but they all bring good toughness and team defense to the table. Henry and Hauser, and to a lesser extent Malik Hall, have been primary facilitators so far this year and have created a ton of looks for their teammates. Look for them to have the ball in their hands a lot. They have been a little loose with the ball, though, so it presents an opportunity for Duke to generate turnovers and get out in transition.

The guards for MSU can both shoot the ball very well. Junior 6'0" PG Foster Loyer has taken over the starting position for the Spartans this year. Duke fans may remember Loyer as the guy that fell down and fouled Tre Jones on a breakaway layup. Despite that ignominy, Loyer is quite good and has started the year off with a bang. He has made 6 of his 10 3-point attempts and every other field goal and free throw attempted. Loyer is not someone that gets to the rim or otherwise breaks his man down. You have to watch him on offense because of his shooting, but he's not going to blow past his defender. Sophomore G Rocket Watts is coming off the bench so far this year after starting much of last season and has been productive. He's a combo guard, like DJ Steward, more than a natural point guard but has been a better facilitator than Loyer. He's a dangerous scorer and should be a really good college player for Tom Izzo.

Up front, the Spartans play 6'11" JR Marcu Bingham, an excellent rim protector with a bit of a raw offensive game. Bingham will take the occasional jumper but it is not his primary role. With so many good and capable shooters around him, it's not a wise decision. He is there to protect the rim, get rebounds, and pass out of the post when the defense collapses. He does those things very well. MSU has a pair of backup big men, including 6'8" JR Thomas Kithier and 6'9" FR Mady Sissoko. Kithier is a moderately skilled big that plays good team defense, will score around the rim a little, but mostly sets screens and helps his teammates out. Sissoko won't get much playing time this year but projects as a shot blocker more in the mold of a thicker Bingham.

Overall, this is a team that won't wow you with individual talent but brings a ton of shooting and team defense to the table. MSU has traditionally struggled to generate turnovers, relying on their withering defense to grind out possessions. They are prone to coughing up the ball, which is a bit strange for a team that relies on set jump shots. Duke will have to be disciplined and stick to their man. Leaving a man open in the corner or allowing a backdoor cut is going to cost the team. Duke has the personnel to matchup with MSU's wings and has more explosive and talented players. I wouldn't be surprised to see DJ Steward with the starting assignment with Jordan Goldwire assigned to defend Langford or Watts. Duke cannot afford the silly mistakes it made against Coppin State. If they play more intelligent basketball, cut off passing lanes, get their wings to cough up the ball, and make open jumpers, Duke should have a chance to notch a signature early-season win. Playing sloppy, though, and the Spartans will eat Duke alive.

[JasonEvans]

MSU is a shot blocking machine - 5 against E. Mich and then 12 against Notre Dame. Typical of an Izzo team, they are strong on the boards too. They outrebounded ND by 12 and E.M. by 8.

Interestingly, they are the opposite of current hoops trends in terms of who they play. Many teams are embracing small-ball and playing 3 and even 4 guard lineups, but MSU really only plays 3 guards total the whole game, filling their lineup with burly forwards like Thomas Kithier, Joey Hauser, and Marcus Bingham. Also, unlike most top-tier teams, they have no real impact freshmen. A couple sophs play, but the bulk of the guys who see time are juniors and seniors… that means this will be game of men playing against Duke’s boys.

-Jason "I'm not optimistic. I'd love to be surprised, of course, but unless we shoot really well and protect the ball, I would expect Duke to lose by about 5 or so" Evans

[DavidBenAkiva]

MSU is a shot blocking machine - 5 against E. Mich and then 12 against Notre Dame. Typical of an Izzo team, they are strong on the boards too. They outrebounded ND by 12 and E.M. by 8.

Interestingly, they are the opposite of current hoops trends in terms of who they play. Many teams are embracing small-ball and playing 3 and even 4 guard lineups, but MSU really only plays 3 guards total the whole game, filling their lineup with burly forwards like Thomas Kithier, Joey Hauser, and Marcus Bingham. Also, unlike most top-tier teams, they have no real impact freshmen. A couple sophs play, but the bulk of the guys who see time are juniors and seniors… that means this will be game of men playing against Duke’s boys.

-Jason "I'm not optimistic. I'd love to be surprised, of course, but unless we shoot really well and protect the ball, I would expect Duke to lose by about 5 or so" Evans

It's funny you described Kithier, Hauser, and Bingham as "burly forwards" as that doesn't come to mind when I see them. Hauser has noticeably bulked up since his freshman season, but he's more of a stretch 4 in my mind than a burly forward. I'm curious to see Matthew Hurt against him as both possess similar skillsets. Hauser looks a little bigger, of course, but not by much. I think Hurt can keep his feet moving enough on defense to check him. It should be interesting to watch, though, and I expect to see Patrick Tape in this game.

Kithier is a forward, but he's not as burly as Hauser and runs 6'8" 230 lbs. He's not overly skilled but more lithe in my view. His game, hiding out along the baseline, setting screens, getting offensive rebounds, is certainly more lunch pail/hardhat than he looks. He plays a similar role to that of Kenny Goins. And Bingham is a twig. He's a long and lanky player that doesn't do particularly well when a defender can body him up inside.

[Troublemaker]

-Jason "I'm not optimistic. I'd love to be surprised, of course, but unless we shoot really well and protect the ball, I would expect Duke to lose by about 5 or so" Evans

Well, as someone who is (once again) dominating the Degenerates contest (#1 in both spread and over/under bets, as of the time of this post), I can't wait to take Duke in this game. Will the books make Duke a short favorite like 3.5 or so? Would be nice.

You should know better, my friend. I guarantee you Izzo wanted Duke to beat Coppin St by 60 heading into this game.

[MChambers]

I'm happy to see that Loyer has fully recovered from the two broken ankles he suffered trying to guard Tre Jones last year.

In all seriousness, no one should help off of Loyer, because he's a very good shooter. Defensively, he's a liability.

[DavidBenAkiva]

I'm happy to see that Loyer has fully recovered from the two broken ankles he suffered trying to guard Tre Jones last year.

In all seriousness, no one should help off of Loyer, because he's a very good shooter. Defensively, he's a liability.

Loyer provides a very interesting matchup for Duke. Notre Dame had success early in the game against MSU by posting their guards against Loyer and just cooking him. I would not be surprised to see DJ Steward as the only guard for Duke stretches when Loyer is in the game with Moore, Hurt, Johnson and maybe Brakefield or Coleman to match up with the MSU wings/forwards. Steward will absolutely cook Loyer if he's open or attack on closeouts. Roach might have similar success against Loyer, too. He's a heady player and a net positive for MSU when he's scoring the ball. But if he can be bottled up a little on offense, teams can take advantage of him on the other end of the court.

[CDu]

MSU has had some turnover in their roster, and as such it doesn't feel quite the usual look for Coach Izzo. They still play a rugged style and pound the glass, though, so bring your hardhats. And I'm sure they'll be in the mix in the Big Ten when all is said and done.

Center: The Spartans don't really start a C this year, although Marcus Bingham Jr (6'11", 225lb junior) plays about as much as the starters in the frontcourt despite coming off the bench. Bingham is long, lean, and athletic. He's a shotblocking machine and a strong defensive rebounder, and offensively has a nice shooting touch for a guy his size. He isn't very physical inside, but can really impact the game with his length and athleticism. Mady Missoko (6'9", 235lb freshman from Mali) is the developmental center on the team behind Bingham, and plays sparingly.

Forwards: Joey Hauser (6'9", 220lb junior transfer from Marquette) is the team's leading scorer and rebounder, although the scoring lead is pretty minimal as they've played a bunch of different guys. He's a physical player in the paint, though more of a below-the-rim type. Offensively, he is a terrific shooter and passer and capable low-post scorer as well. Very skilled and very smart, and MSU runs a lot of their offense through his capable hands. The other starting forward is Thomas Kithier (6'8", 230lb junior). Kithier is a scrappy player who doesn't possess great athleticism, but knows his role and fits the typical mold of a hard-working MSU big. He came to MSU with a reputation as a decent shooter, but that has not materialized in his career at East Lansing. Kithier is more of a rotational big and doesn't play typical starter minutes, as Izzo will turn to Bingham Jr fairly quickly. Malik Hall (6'7", 215lb sophomore) is the other main option off the bench. Hall plays more of a high-post role and is a true glue guy and role player. He has a high basketball IQ and is a very good passer for a forward, and does a lot of the dirty work for the Spartans off the bench. Julius Marble II (6'8", 225lb sophomore) plays sparingly as needed off the bench as a rugged rotational big.

Wings: Aaron Henry is the team's other star player. Henry is more of a forward/wing and even plays a bit at PF for the Spartans in a smallball look. Physically, he's a bit like Wendell Moore: long-armed and pretty strong, and a terrific defender. He may be a bit more of a leaper than Moore, though maybe not quite as skilled as a ballhandler. Henry burst onto the scene down the stretch as a freshman, then had a bit of a disappointing sophomore year. He shoots okay from the perimeter, but is a really dangerous slasher and baseline lurker, and is dynamite in transition. The Spartans will look for him to really step up this year, as he has NBA potential if he can harness those physical gifts more consistently. In that way, he's very similar to Moore. Josh Langford (6'5", 200lb fifth-year senior) is the elder statesman of the team, and was turning into a real star for the team in the 2019 season before a foot injury ended his season in late-December. He then missed all of last year after having surgery on the same injured foot from the year prior. Langford was an athletic slasher coming out of high school, but has proven to be a terrific 3pt shooter throughout his time at MSU. It remains to be seen if he is as effective off the dribble following his long injury sabbatical. But the shooting touch remains for sure. The third wing of note is Gabe Brown (6'7", 210lb junior). Brown is more of a 3-and-D wing, with long arms and a nice shooting touch. He doesn't add much off the dribble, and the majority of his looks are catch-and-shoot 3s.

Guards: The PG spot is the area for which the team has seen the biggest change. Last year, they had all-world PG Cassius Winston. He's gone, and the change has forced MSU to really change its style. Foster Loyer (6'0", 175lb junior) has started the team's first two games, with mixed results. He played sparingly as an underclassman for the Spartans, but had a great opener against Eastern Michigan (6-10 from 3). Unfortunately, he came back to Earth against Notre Dame, scoring just 3 points in 17 minutes. Loyer is undersized and lacks athleticism, but plays hard-nosed and has a good bball IQ. He can shoot, but isn't going to make a ton of wow plays with the ball. Honestly, he's probably overmatched at the major college level as a PG. But he rarely tries to do too much. His PG partner is Mark "Rocket" Watts (6'2", 185lb sophomore). Watts is a very talented player who spent time a bit out of position last year playing off the ball next to Cassius Winston. He's a lead guard through and through, quite capable of attacking defenses off the dribble. He is a better shooter than his 28% from 3 last year would suggest, and is fearless with the ball. I'd expect him eventually to take over as the starter, but for now he's settling for playing starter's minutes as the sixth man. Of the two options at PG, he's the dynamic playmaker whereas Loyer is the steady, unspectacular hand.

It's going to be an interesting season for the Spartans as there is so much uncertainty with their backcourt. They have a lot of bodies in the frontcourt, but few are superlative aside from Hauser. They are terrific on the wings though, and Izzo usually finds a way to make things work inside. So as long as they get competent PG play, they'll be tough. Here's hoping that their PG play isn't figured out this week!

[CDu]

Loyer provides a very interesting matchup for Duke. Notre Dame had success early in the game against MSU by posting their guards against Loyer and just cooking him. I would not be surprised to see DJ Steward as the only guard for Duke stretches when Loyer is in the game with Moore, Hurt, Johnson and maybe Brakefield or Coleman to match up with the MSU wings/forwards. Steward will absolutely cook Loyer if he's open or attack on closeouts. Roach might have similar success against Loyer, too. He's a heady player and a net positive for MSU when he's scoring the ball. But if he can be bottled up a little on offense, teams can take advantage of him on the other end of the court.

I will be surprised if Loyer plays more than about 15 minutes against us to be honest. He had a nice shooting game against a lower-tier opponent, but he got a bit exposed against an ACC opponent. On balance, I think the Spartans will quickly turn to Watts as their best option once they start consistently playing better teams.

And based on yesterday's game, I'd be surprised if we see one-guard lineups for Duke too much this season. I think we'll see two of Roach/Steward/Goldwire for most of every game.

[Billy Dat]

Here's the stuff I am looking out for tomorrow night:
-Jalen Johnson was not only productive, but he carried himself as if he was the alpha dog of the team with that "I am the best player on the court" demeanor. We need that this year, and I am very interested to see how that plays out against a huge upgrade in opponent. I am also curious to see if he can continue to rebound like he did against MSU's "hit, find, fetch" rebounding approach?
-Can Duke cut down on the turnovers and fouls?
-Can Duke get to the line more and shoot better than 40%?
-Can we get better production from our veterans? Johnson, Roach and Steward played many more minutes than Hurt, Moore and Goldwire. A lot of that was foul trouble, but being a leader means playing hard and productively without fouling.
-Coppin State spread the court and took 35 3s. Sparty took fewer than 30 in their two games so far. They play at a much slower pace than us. It's going to be a very different challenge for Duke. I could see MSU just try to get the board up on the glass and then gang rebound to try and bully us around.

[CDu]

Here's the stuff I am looking out for tomorrow night:
-Jalen Johnson was not only productive, but he carried himself as if he was the alpha dog of the team with that "I am the best player on the court" demeanor. We need that this year, and I am very interested to see how that plays out against a huge upgrade in opponent. I am also curious to see if he can continue to rebound like he did against MSU's "hit, find, fetch" rebounding approach?
-Can Duke cut down on the turnovers and fouls?
-Can Duke get to the line more and shoot better than 40%?
-Can we get better production from our veterans? Johnson, Roach and Steward played many more minutes than Hurt, Moore and Goldwire. A lot of that was foul trouble, but being a leader means playing hard and productively without fouling.
-Coppin State spread the court and took 35 3s. Sparty took fewer than 30 in their two games so far. They play at a much slower pace than us. It's going to be a very different challenge for Duke. I could see MSU just try to get the board up on the glass and then gang rebound to try and bully us around.

Yeah, it will be a VERY different style than against Coppin State. It will be interesting to see how our half court offense looks against a team less well-suited to handle a "smallball" frontcourt. Conversely, it will be interesting to see how our "smalllball" frontcourt handles a team that plays a bit more traditionally in the frontcourt, and is known for physicality inside.

The good news is that, if we do get bullied a bit, we have some guys (Coleman, Tape) who should be able to counter that that we didn't utilize in the last game. So along with my interest in seeing how Hurt and Johnson do against a more physical frontcourt, I'm interested in seeing if/how the rotation changes given the different opponent.

I'd also like to see how Roach does against a less gifted PG opponent. He was somewhat effective against Coppin State, but not quite as impressive as I'd hoped based on the preseason chatter. Hopefully that was somewhat due to jitters and somewhat due to playing against a very experienced opponent.

I'd also like to see how Steward does against a much more physical opposing backcourt. He was spectacular in the opener, and undeniably has talent and confidence. The question will be how he fares against physicality, something he hasn't seen much of yet.

Talent-wise, we're way above MSU. Their most talented players align with our 3rd or 4th best, and the dropoff from their two most talented to their #3 falls to below our rotation. But they are more experienced and they are well-coached, and they've occasionally made up for that talent discrepancy in the past. So I do want to see where we are as a team.

[dukebluesincebirth]

Yeah, it will be a VERY different style than against Coppin State. It will be interesting to see how our half court offense looks against a team less well-suited to handle a "smallball" frontcourt. Conversely, it will be interesting to see how our "smalllball" frontcourt handles a team that plays a bit more traditionally in the frontcourt, and is known for physicality inside.

The good news is that, if we do get bullied a bit, we have some guys (Coleman, Tape) who should be able to counter that that we didn't utilize in the last game. So along with my interest in seeing how Hurt and Johnson do against a more physical frontcourt, I'm interested in seeing if/how the rotation changes given the different opponent.

I'd also like to see how Roach does against a less gifted PG opponent. He was somewhat effective against Coppin State, but not quite as impressive as I'd hoped based on the preseason chatter. Hopefully that was somewhat due to jitters and somewhat due to playing against a very experienced opponent.

I'd also like to see how Steward does against a much more physical opposing backcourt. He was spectacular in the opener, and undeniably has talent and confidence. The question will be how he fares against physicality, something he hasn't seen much of yet.

Talent-wise, we're way above MSU. Their most talented players align with our 3rd or 4th best, and the dropoff from their two most talented to their #3 falls to below our rotation. But they are more experienced and they are well-coached, and they've occasionally made up for that talent discrepancy in the past. So I do want to see where we are as a team.

Agree with everything, and also will be watching Roach closely...he's my biggest worry so far. When he didn't start against Coppin St, I was surprised and thought maybe it had something to do with first game?? I would expect a McDonald's All American PG to be able to start over Jordan Goldwire. Then when he checked in, I noticed he looked really small compared to every other player on the court. I've seen him listed at 6'2 , 180lbs but to me he looked more like 6'1 , 170lbs. His size stood out to me because it looked like it made him easier to defend. I've seen tiny guards whose size didn't really make them easier to defend because they had blazing speed/quickness and/or an uncanny ability to create shots amongst bigger players. I saw Jermemy get trapped and struggle to pass out of it because of his small size. He made a few turnovers (they all did, so won't hold that against him yet), and he did not penetrate and pass particularly well. The first game left me wondering what his best skill set is. An undersized PG who basically dribbles the ball up and begins the offense by passing to the wing in a weave around the perimeter won't cut it in the ACC. I want to see Jeremy creating in the open court, penetrating and either finishing or dishing to Jalen J for dunks, be a decent shooter, and pressure the other team's PG. Michigan State should be a good test for his small size and physicality.

[scottdude8]

EDIT: Mods, I have screwed up again. Please change the date to 12/1.

The Blue Devils continue their season on Tuesday night facing off against a familiar foe in a very unusual circumstance. Michigan State will play in a mostly empty Cameron Indoor Stadium as part of the Champions Classic. The annual event was originally intended to kick off the college basketball season. Instead, the Spartans will fly to RDU while Kansas and Kentucky will play in Indianapolis. Duke has verbally committed to returning to Lansing in the future. Personally, I hope it takes place next season between two teams that should be ranked atop the polls. That's next year. This year, Duke will look to build of an uneven performance against Coppin State.

Looking at MSU, the roster matches up well against Duke. Each team is deep with versatile wings. MSU features a number of talented wings, although none of them jump out as overwhelming talent. The roster has talent with 7 players ranked in the RSCI top 100 in their respective recruiting classes. However, only senior Joshua Langford was a top 20 player and was ranked 20th in his class. Langford appears to be fully healthy after two seasons of tough breaks. He's a bigger guard that can really shoot the ball. He has a career 3P% over 40% and is better than 80% from the FT line. So far on this young season, he is primarily taking 3's but has shown a more diverse game in the past. The other wings are all shooters, including Marquette transfer Joey Hauser. The 6'9" sophomore hit 45% of his threes as a freshman playing for Wojo, although he is 0-6 on the young season. Hauser knows and has played against Jalen Johnson growing up, so that's a matchup to watch.

Other wings include Aaron Henry, Gabe Brown, and Malik Hall. These three all run about 6'6" and 6'7" with Henry being the more polished of the trio. They each have decent jumpers but are not the shooters that Hauser and Langford are. Still, it would be a good idea to not leave them alone in the corner. Henry is more of a slasher than the the others, but they all bring good toughness and team defense to the table. Henry and Hauser, and to a lesser extent Malik Hall, have been primary facilitators so far this year and have created a ton of looks for their teammates. Look for them to have the ball in their hands a lot. They have been a little loose with the ball, though, so it presents an opportunity for Duke to generate turnovers and get out in transition.

The guards for MSU can both shoot the ball very well. Junior 6'0" PG Foster Loyer has taken over the starting position for the Spartans this year. Duke fans may remember Loyer as the guy that fell down and fouled Tre Jones on a breakaway layup. Despite that ignominy, Loyer is quite good and has started the year off with a bang. He has made 6 of his 10 3-point attempts and every other field goal and free throw attempted. Loyer is not someone that gets to the rim or otherwise breaks his man down. You have to watch him on offense because of his shooting, but he's not going to blow past his defender. Sophomore G Rocket Watts is coming off the bench so far this year after starting much of last season and has been productive. He's a combo guard, like DJ Steward, more than a natural point guard but has been a better facilitator than Loyer. He's a dangerous scorer and should be a really good college player for Tom Izzo.

Up front, the Spartans play 6'11" JR Marcu Bingham, an excellent rim protector with a bit of a raw offensive game. Bingham will take the occasional jumper but it is not his primary role. With so many good and capable shooters around him, it's not a wise decision. He is there to protect the rim, get rebounds, and pass out of the post when the defense collapses. He does those things very well. MSU has a pair of backup big men, including 6'8" JR Thomas Kithier and 6'9" FR Mady Sissoko. Kithier is a moderately skilled big that plays good team defense, will score around the rim a little, but mostly sets screens and helps his teammates out. Sissoko won't get much playing time this year but projects as a shot blocker more in the mold of a thicker Bingham.

Overall, this is a team that won't wow you with individual talent but brings a ton of shooting and team defense to the table. MSU has traditionally struggled to generate turnovers, relying on their withering defense to grind out possessions. They are prone to coughing up the ball, which is a bit strange for a team that relies on set jump shots. Duke will have to be disciplined and stick to their man. Leaving a man open in the corner or allowing a backdoor cut is going to cost the team. Duke has the personnel to matchup with MSU's wings and has more explosive and talented players. I wouldn't be surprised to see DJ Steward with the starting assignment with Jordan Goldwire assigned to defend Langford or Watts. Duke cannot afford the silly mistakes it made against Coppin State. If they play more intelligent basketball, cut off passing lanes, get their wings to cough up the ball, and make open jumpers, Duke should have a chance to notch a signature early-season win. Playing sloppy, though, and the Spartans will eat Duke alive.

Great work on this preview. A few additional points from a guy who's hate-watched a ton of MSU basketball being a Michigan fan:
-While MSU has impressed in their early action, I still think that their early season ranking way overlooks how much they lost in Winston and Tillman. Those two guys were almost the entirety of MSU's team last year, with all various wings all playing inconsistent complimentary roles. Yes, you could say the same thing about Duke losing Tre and Vern, but we've already seen the incoming talent we've replaced them with: MSU doesn't have any freshman of that caliber.
-Loyer has surprised with his productivity early in the year, and local media was quite shocked that he was the opening day starter. Loyer entered MSU with lots of local fanfare, as he was Michigan Mr. Basketball, but it was quickly apparent in his first two years that he simply wasn't a B1G caliber athlete, at least yet. He can definitely shoot the ball, but his ability to defend high-level PGs and deal with pressure from strong defenders is a big question mark. If I were Coach K (which obviously I'm not or else I wouldn't be posting this on a message board, hahaha) I would give JG a single task on Tuesday: hound Loyer and make his life miserable offensively. I think there is a real potential to generate easy buckets by forcing him into turnovers. And on the other end of the court, any time we can use screens to force him to defend anyone other than JG is a matchup strongly in our favor.
-As previously mentioned, MSU does have size, but it is very inexperienced size... Bingham showed flashes last year but wasn't asked to do too much since Tillman was such a strong presence. Kithier, meanwhile, hasn't been more than a 5-10 mpg guy during his career and hasn't shown an ability to do much more than set screens and play hard on D. Considering neither big has a refined offensive game, if Hurt and Johnson can do a solid job on the defensive glass, Duke's small lineup with Hurt at the 5 could still be viable; if so, either Bingham or Kithier guarding Hurt is a plus matchup in our favor.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Yeah, it will be a VERY different style than against Coppin State. It will be interesting to see how our half court offense looks against a team less well-suited to handle a "smallball" frontcourt. Conversely, it will be interesting to see how our "smalllball" frontcourt handles a team that plays a bit more traditionally in the frontcourt, and is known for physicality inside.

The good news is that, if we do get bullied a bit, we have some guys (Coleman, Tape) who should be able to counter that that we didn't utilize in the last game. So along with my interest in seeing how Hurt and Johnson do against a more physical frontcourt, I'm interested in seeing if/how the rotation changes given the different opponent.

I'd also like to see how Roach does against a less gifted PG opponent. He was somewhat effective against Coppin State, but not quite as impressive as I'd hoped based on the preseason chatter. Hopefully that was somewhat due to jitters and somewhat due to playing against a very experienced opponent.

I'd also like to see how Steward does against a much more physical opposing backcourt. He was spectacular in the opener, and undeniably has talent and confidence. The question will be how he fares against physicality, something he hasn't seen much of yet.

Talent-wise, we're way above MSU. Their most talented players align with our 3rd or 4th best, and the dropoff from their two most talented to their #3 falls to below our rotation. But they are more experienced and they are well-coached, and they've occasionally made up for that talent discrepancy in the past. So I do want to see where we are as a team.

I'm also very interested to see what three of our four veterans do (at the least the three whom I found to be disappointing in the opening game). The only one I thought did a good job was Hurt, because he showed a level of aggressiveness and improvement that just wasn't there last year. His rebounding was great (for Hurt) and his turnovers were minimal (compared to his teammates, at least). His other stats were okay and his defense needs a little help, but I really liked what I saw. If Hurt continues this, he'll be stellar.

With Goldwire, I want to see him stop trying to do so much. Hell, I want him to execute simple plays better. Goldwire is at his best when his defense leads his offense, and that's what we need from him. We don't need him to distribute; we need to him to fight. I'm a little less worried about Goldwire than Moore or Baker, because Goldwire started off really slow last year. I think he needs a little time. But as a leader (and I believe captain), he needs to figure it out quickly.

With Moore, I didn't see anything different. His shooting still looks off (he leans in or side-to-side on his shots). His rebounding and playmaking her subpar, and he was a fouling machine. As someone who is supposed to be a defensive leader, I want to see that as the basis of his game. Ideally, I'd love to see improvement on offense (especially shooting), but I fear that may be asking for too much right now.

With Baker, I'm a little lost (I guess like Baker himself). Baker's bread and butter is shooting, but that wasn't working against CSU. And if that doesn't work, what exactly is Baker? He offers no defense, no intangibles, no inside scoring... I don't really understand his value. He's the player I'm most concerned about and the player I believe will be out of the rotation sooner rather than later. At the very least, he has to stay in front of his man. He's soooooooo bad on defense right now.

[MChambers]

-As previously mentioned, MSU does have size, but it is very inexperienced size... Bingham showed flashes last year but wasn't asked to do too much since Tillman was such a strong presence. Kithier, meanwhile, hasn't been more than a 5-10 mpg guy during his career and hasn't shown an ability to do much more than set screens and play hard on D. Considering neither big has a refined offensive game, if Hurt and Johnson can do a solid job on the defensive glass, Duke's small lineup with Hurt at the 5 could still be viable; if so, either Bingham or Kithier guarding Hurt is a plus matchup in our favor.

Joey Hauser, who is 21, has had a year at Marquette and a year at MSU, albeit only practicing. He's much better than Kithier and probably better than Bingham. Similar player to Hurt, but probably quicker.

[rsvman]

I'm also very interested to see what three of our four veterans do (at the least the three whom I found to be disappointing in the opening game). The only one I thought did a good job was Hurt, because he showed a level of aggressiveness and improvement that just wasn't there last year. His rebounding was great (for Hurt) and his turnovers were minimal (compared to his teammates, at least). His other stats were okay and his defense needs a little help, but I really liked what I saw. If Hurt continues this, he'll be stellar.

With Goldwire, I want to see him stop trying to do so much. Hell, I want him to execute simple plays better. Goldwire is at his best when his defense leads his offense, and that's what we need from him. We don't need him to distribute; we need to him to fight. I'm a little less worried about Goldwire than Moore or Baker, because Goldwire started off really slow last year. I think he needs a little time. But as a leader (and I believe captain), he needs to figure it out quickly.

With Moore, I didn't see anything different. His shooting still looks off (he leans in or side-to-side on his shots). His rebounding and playmaking her subpar, and he was a fouling machine. As someone who is supposed to be a defensive leader, I want to see that as the basis of his game. Ideally, I'd love to see improvement on offense (especially shooting), but I fear that may be asking for too much right now.

With Baker, I'm a little lost (I guess like Baker himself). Baker's bread and butter is shooting, but that wasn't working against CSU. And if that doesn't work, what exactly is Baker? He offers no defense, no intangibles, no inside scoring... I don't really understand his value. He's the player I'm most concerned about and the player I believe will be out of the rotation sooner rather than later. At the very least, he has to stay in front of his man. He's soooooooo bad on defense right now.
Joey Buckets needs to earn the moniker in order to earn some time. I think the ship has sailed in terms of his becoming a great defender. If he makes 40+ percent of threes, the defensive troubles can perhaps be overlooked. He tends to get beat by his man off the dribble, so he is giving up largely twos, not threes. The math works out pretty well when you are trading threes for twos; however, if he is clanking threes he is a liability.

[scottdude8]

Joey Hauser, who is 21, has had a year at Marquette and a year at MSU, albeit only practicing. He's much better than Kithier and probably better than Bingham. Similar player to Hurt, but probably quicker.

Very true... I didn't include him since I haven't yet seen him play (no MSU games on TV in Canada yet, haha), but he can/should be considered a "newcomer" offsetting the Winston/Tillman losses.

[jv001]

Agree with everything, and also will be watching Roach closely...he's my biggest worry so far. When he didn't start against Coppin St, I was surprised and thought maybe it had something to do with first game?? I would expect a McDonald's All American PG to be able to start over Jordan Goldwire. Then when he checked in, I noticed he looked really small compared to every other player on the court. I've seen him listed at 6'2 , 180lbs but to me he looked more like 6'1 , 170lbs. His size stood out to me because it looked like it made him easier to defend. I've seen tiny guards whose size didn't really make them easier to defend because they had blazing speed/quickness and/or an uncanny ability to create shots amongst bigger players. I saw Jermemy get trapped and struggle to pass out of it because of his small size. He made a few turnovers (they all did, so won't hold that against him yet), and he did not penetrate and pass particularly well. The first game left me wondering what his best skill set is. An undersized PG who basically dribbles the ball up and begins the offense by passing to the wing in a weave around the perimeter won't cut it in the ACC. I want to see Jeremy creating in the open court, penetrating and either finishing or dishing to Jalen J for dunks, be a decent shooter, and pressure the other team's PG. Michigan State should be a good test for his small size and physicality.

I think you described Goldwire too. Except the undersized part. Like you, I want to see our point guard create some offense and defend the other teams point guard. Goldwire can do that very well but I don't know about creating offense.

GoDuke!

[budwom]

Joey Buckets needs to earn the moniker in order to earn some time. I think the ship has sailed in terms of his becoming a great defender. If he makes 40+ percent of threes, the defensive troubles can perhaps be overlooked. He tends to get beat by his man off the dribble, so he is giving up largely twos, not threes. The math works out pretty well when you are trading threes for twos; however, if he is clanking threes he is a liability.

That's why I prefer Joey Donuts, that way the moniker works if he's either good OR bad in a given game. Flexibility!

[flyingdutchdevil]

Joey Buckets needs to earn the moniker in order to earn some time. I think the ship has sailed in terms of his becoming a great defender. If he makes 40+ percent of threes, the defensive troubles can perhaps be overlooked. He tends to get beat by his man off the dribble, so he is giving up largely twos, not threes. The math works out pretty well when you are trading threes for twos; however, if he is clanking threes he is a liability.

Yup. Agreed.

Kennard was a defensive liability; a big one at that. But his offensive output was through the roof.

It's unrealistic to assume Joey will be like Kennard. If that's the case, he needs to do something more than just planting himself on the 3pt line or planting himself in front of his defensive assignment (only to get blown by a second later).

[CDu]

Agree with everything, and also will be watching Roach closely...he's my biggest worry so far. When he didn't start against Coppin St, I was surprised and thought maybe it had something to do with first game?? I would expect a McDonald's All American PG to be able to start over Jordan Goldwire. Then when he checked in, I noticed he looked really small compared to every other player on the court. I've seen him listed at 6'2 , 180lbs but to me he looked more like 6'1 , 170lbs. His size stood out to me because it looked like it made him easier to defend. I've seen tiny guards whose size didn't really make them easier to defend because they had blazing speed/quickness and/or an uncanny ability to create shots amongst bigger players. I saw Jermemy get trapped and struggle to pass out of it because of his small size. He made a few turnovers (they all did, so won't hold that against him yet), and he did not penetrate and pass particularly well. The first game left me wondering what his best skill set is. An undersized PG who basically dribbles the ball up and begins the offense by passing to the wing in a weave around the perimeter won't cut it in the ACC. I want to see Jeremy creating in the open court, penetrating and either finishing or dishing to Jalen J for dunks, be a decent shooter, and pressure the other team's PG. Michigan State should be a good test for his small size and physicality.

I don't have the same impression of Roach from the Coppin State game. I thought he looked just fine out there. He didn't have a dominant showing like Johnson and Steward, but he was really strong. I don't know exactly why Coach K started Goldwire and Baker over Roach and Steward, but worth noting that both freshmen played more than any of the upperclassmen.

I don't remember many (if any) incidences of Roach getting trapped and struggling with it. His turnovers were generally trying to force a pass for a scoring opportunity. I also don't think Roach looked small. But your mileage may vary.

I was disappointed that Roach didn't get to the rim more, and that he missed 3 of 4 free throws. But aside from that, I thought he looked solid. Certainly the hope is for more than solid, but hopefully that was a first-game jitters thing for him.

[jv001]

I don't have the same impression of Roach from the Coppin State game. I thought he looked just fine out there. He didn't have a dominant showing like Johnson and Steward, but he was really strong. I don't know exactly why Coach K started Goldwire and Baker over Roach and Steward, but worth noting that both freshmen played more than any of the upperclassmen.

I don't remember many (if any) incidences of Roach getting trapped and struggling with it. His turnovers were generally trying to force a pass for a scoring opportunity. I also don't think Roach looked small. But your mileage may vary.

I was disappointed that Roach didn't get to the rim more, and that he missed 3 of 4 free throws. But aside from that, I thought he looked solid. Certainly the hope is for more than solid, but hopefully that was a first-game jitters thing for him.

I was only able to watch just a minute or two of the game but listened to the 2nd half on XM car radio. From the little of what I did see it looked like the team was telegraphing passes. I told my wife that it seems the guys are trying to run set plays and make passes they are able to make in practice. The difference in game speed is much different and those easy passes aren't always open. You guys that were blessed to watch the game know more than I do.

GoDuke!

[Troublemaker]

Well, as someone who is (once again) dominating the Degenerates contest (#1 in both spread and over/under bets, as of the time of this post), I can't wait to take Duke in this game. Will the books make Duke a short favorite like 3.5 or so? Would be nice.

You should know better, my friend. I guarantee you Izzo wanted Duke to beat Coppin St by 60 heading into this game.

Duke actually does open as a 3.5-pt favorite. I would expect the sharps like me to push that out to about 5 points by tip.

[dukelifer]

I don't have the same impression of Roach from the Coppin State game. I thought he looked just fine out there. He didn't have a dominant showing like Johnson and Steward, but he was really strong. I don't know exactly why Coach K started Goldwire and Baker over Roach and Steward, but worth noting that both freshmen played more than any of the upperclassmen.

I don't remember many (if any) incidences of Roach getting trapped and struggling with it. His turnovers were generally trying to force a pass for a scoring opportunity. I also don't think Roach looked small. But your mileage may vary.

I was disappointed that Roach didn't get to the rim more, and that he missed 3 of 4 free throws. But aside from that, I thought he looked solid. Certainly the hope is for more than solid, but hopefully that was a first-game jitters thing for him.

I agree that we did not see enough of Roach. He may be the kind of player that is not comfortable coming off the bench. The missed free throws concerned me for a kid that drives the ball- but it was one game.

[Troublemaker]

I agree that we did not see enough of Roach. He may be the kind of player that is not comfortable coming off the bench. The missed free throws concerned me for a kid that drives the ball- but it was one game.

Well, Jeremy did play 29 minutes, and crucially, was part of the closing lineup of Roach-Steward-Moore-Johnson-Hurt. In the postgame, Coach K also complimented Jeremy on his "leadership" during the game.

Long-term, I doubt we see JGold starting, and I agree with those that commented that he's not going to be all that effective off-ball either, unless his shooting has improved greatly, not just in accuracy (where he was decent last year) but in # of attempts. The opponent has to fear that you will pull the trigger, so the 1.5 attempts / gm he averaged last year really doesn't spread the court, for example.

After one game, I've tinkered with my minutes projections.



mpg
Starters
mpg
in Rotation
mpg
Situational

deep bench / blowouts


32
Roach
20
JGold



Savarino


32
Steward





Buckmire


32
Moore
10
Baker






32
Johnson
5
Brakefield
1
Tape

Worthington


30
Hurt
5
Coleman
1
Williams







(WRT Coleman vs Tape vs Williams, I'm just guessing that Henry will be the most switchable of those bigs. I think we're going to be switching A LOT this season).

[Bob Green]

Long-term, I doubt we see JGold starting, and I agree with those that commented that he's not going to be all that effective off-ball either, unless his shooting has improved greatly, not just in accuracy (where he was decent last year) but in # of attempts. The opponent has to fear that you will pull the trigger, so the 1.5 attempts / gm he averaged last year really doesn't spread the court, for example.

Goldwire is valuable on the defensive end of the court and as a leader. If he remains a starter, it will be due to those traits.

[DavidBenAkiva]

A thought occurred to me this morning. Henry Coleman is an interesting matchup in this game. On defense, he's big enough to check pretty much anyone that MSU has. Joey Hauser is taller but not bigger and has been playing a small-ball 5 for MSU so far this year. The other forward has been Thomas Kithier, who is maybe an inch taller but not nearly as mobile or athletic as Coleman. Marcus Bingham is their true center, but he's more lithe and rarely posts up. Outside of Aaron Henry, none of their wings or forwards are particularly quick on their feet. I think Coleman could provide good minutes on defense and then crash the offensive boards and get a couple of mop-up buckets or dump offs if Roach/Steward/Johnson/Moore can break down the MSU defense. Coleman could prove to be a real X-factor.

Likewise, Mark Williams could be an x-factor as a rim protector and just his overall length.

MSU loves the backdoor cuts. Having a player like Williams or Coleman, if they are able to read and react to it, could be disruptive to MSU's offense. That's a lot to ask of freshmen.

[Troublemaker]

Goldwire is valuable on the defensive end of the court and as a leader. If he remains a starter, it will be due to those traits.

No, it'll be because somebody body-snatched Coach K and switched him with a bad coach. Luckily, that doesn't seem to be the case. Seriously, it was telling that Coach went with Roach and Steward down the stretch (with JGold only getting back into the game when Hurt picked up his 4th foul).

Coach K knows what his highest-ceiling backcourt is. He's too good not to know.

[jimsumner]

It seems like we have some variation of this discussion every year.

But the five guys who start aren't necessarily the five guys who finish close games and aren't necessarily the five guys who play the most minutes and aren't necessarily the same five guys who start the next game or the game after that or the game after that.

It's very easy to see Goldwire starting ahead of Roach and/or Steward but playing fewer minutes. Some real advantages in having a defense-first senior starting the game and setting a tone.

[dukelifer]

Well, Jeremy did play 29 minutes, and crucially, was part of the closing lineup of Roach-Steward-Moore-Johnson-Hurt. In the postgame, Coach K also complimented Jeremy on his "leadership" during the game.

Long-term, I doubt we see JGold starting, and I agree with those that commented that he's not going to be all that effective off-ball either, unless his shooting has improved greatly, not just in accuracy (where he was decent last year) but in # of attempts. The opponent has to fear that you will pull the trigger, so the 1.5 attempts / gm he averaged last year really doesn't spread the court, for example.

After one game, I've tinkered with my minutes projections.



mpg
Starters
mpg
in Rotation
mpg
Situational

deep bench / blowouts


32
Roach
20
JGold



Savarino


32
Steward





Buckmire


32
Moore
10
Baker






32
Johnson
5
Brakefield
1
Tape

Worthington


30
Hurt
5
Coleman
1
Williams







(WRT Coleman vs Tape vs Williams, I'm just guessing that Henry will be the most switchable of those bigs. I think we're going to be switching A LOT this season).

I did not realize that- of course, I spent a good portion of the time with my hand over my face at every turnover- wondering what was going on with this team. Roach did not jump off the screen. I will pay more attention to him tonight.

[CDu]

Well, Jeremy did play 29 minutes, and crucially, was part of the closing lineup of Roach-Steward-Moore-Johnson-Hurt. In the postgame, Coach K also complimented Jeremy on his "leadership" during the game.

Yeah, I definitely thought Roach played well. He wasn't superlative by any means, but clearly the second best guard for us (and that's not a slight as Steward had a terrific game). The only disappointment I had with Roach was relative to the preseason expectations. But again, that's just one game. I definitely haven't any concerns about Roach at the moment.


Long-term, I doubt we see JGold starting, and I agree with those that commented that he's not going to be all that effective off-ball either, unless his shooting has improved greatly, not just in accuracy (where he was decent last year) but in # of attempts. The opponent has to fear that you will pull the trigger, so the 1.5 attempts / gm he averaged last year really doesn't spread the court, for example.

I agree on Goldwire. The team's ceiling relies on Roach and Steward taking over the guard spots and doing so effectively. And I think before long (if not as soon as tonight) we'll see that happen. At the very least, though, even if Goldwire remains a nominal starter I'd expect the minutes distribution to be 30+ for Roach and Steward and fewer for Goldwire moving forward. The only hesitation being if Steward's skinniness becomes problematic against bigger teams.

[killerleft]

Ever since Dawkins and Amaker, I have believed in skinny guards. They work it out.

[amusedcupcake]

Ever since Dawkins and Amaker, I have believed in skinny guards. They work it out.

My precious little Alex O'connell says hi.

[Troublemaker]

Ever since Dawkins and Amaker, I have believed in skinny guards. They work it out.

Yeah, I was worried about his weight in the preseason -- at least if the listed 163-lbs is accurate -- but DJ struck me as "wiry strong" in the Coppin St game, even pulling down 9 rebounds. I'm back to being super high on him.

[Spanarkel]

It's funny you described Kithier, Hauser, and Bingham as "burly forwards" as that doesn't come to mind when I see them. Hauser has noticeably bulked up since his freshman season, but he's more of a stretch 4 in my mind than a burly forward. I'm curious to see Matthew Hurt against him as both possess similar skillsets. Hauser looks a little bigger, of course, but not by much. I think Hurt can keep his feet moving enough on defense to check him. It should be interesting to watch, though, and I expect to see Patrick Tape in this game.

Kithier is a forward, but he's not as burly as Hauser and runs 6'8" 230 lbs. He's not overly skilled but more lithe in my view. His game, hiding out along the baseline, setting screens, getting offensive rebounds, is certainly more lunch pail/hardhat than he looks. He plays a similar role to that of Kenny Goins. And Bingham is a twig. He's a long and lanky player that doesn't do particularly well when a defender can body him up inside.

Too soon.

[budwom]

Nine man rotation, eh?

[killerleft]

My precious little Alex O'connell says hi.

Plus Phil Henderson, may he rest in peace. Take that, Mr. Mourning!

[Troublemaker]

Quickies while waiting for the game:

Wondering if MSU will adopt's Coppin St's gameplan of aggressively cutting off half the court for our ball-handlers. I would call what CSU did "pre-ice" as their guards repeatedly started aggressively shading our guards towards the sideline as soon as we crossed halfcourt with the ball, pre-determining which side of the court we would start offense from. This made defensive recognition of weakside vs strongside easy, and their weakside defenders were very comfortable playing a cat-and-mouse game, baiting our guards into poor skip passes by leaving an opening momentarily and then closing it.
MSU will probably just run their regular stuff on defense and offense (if for no other reason than Izzo would expect Coach K to have solved the issues from the CSU game during practice), but that was an interesting wrinkle by Coppin St
Leaning towards Jalen defending Hauser while Matthew defends Kithier/Bingham, but we'll see how Coach K plays it. Because Jalen is a shotblocker, it actually usually makes more sense for him to defend non-shooting big men like Kithier/Bingham so Jalen can stay closer to the basket and use those weakside shotblocking skills. However, Hauser actually has an off-the-dribble game to go with his strong body, and my suspicion is that he would drive right thru Matthew. Matthew, incidentally, played a good defensive game against CSU. On switches, he stopped Tarke once and Clayton twice (so 3-for-3) when they tried to drive him. He gave up a couple of stepback 3-pters after switches, which is why people perhaps thought he played poorly on D, but those are generally bad shots that you live with if he has success dealing with penetration from guards after switches.
We need to get a big game from Wendell here. I'm not terribly impressed with MSU's guards, which is one reason why I'm confident going into this game. 30+ years of watching Duke basketball under Coach K, and I know what kills us -- great opposing guards, which MSU lacks. But they do have some very good wing talent in guys like Aaron Henry, Gabe Brown, and Malik Hall. We need Wendell to play them to a draw at least and perhaps even win the matchups.
Wendell's probably my biggest concern from the CSU game (because I do ultimately think the 22 turnovers were fluky [game #1] -- I don't expect the makeup of this Duke team to translate into being a high turnover team, at all). But I do wonder if Wendell is quick enough or has enough ball-handling to play the 3. Last season I thought he was more of a college 4 than a college 3, and thru one game, I'm sensing that still might be the case. Hopefully he has a nice breakout game here to show that he really has improved since last season and can play the college 3.

[Furniture]

Yup. Agreed.

Kennard was a defensive liability; a big one at that. But his offensive output was through the roof.

It's unrealistic to assume Joey will be like Kennard. If that's the case, he needs to do something more than just planting himself on the 3pt line or planting himself in front of his defensive assignment (only to get blown by a second later).

Kennard was very crafty. I don’t think Joey is.

[TKG]

Plus Phil Henderson, may he rest in peace. Take that, Mr. Mourning!

Let’s not forget Quin Snyder. Not sure he ever located the weight room.

[-jk]

DBR Chat (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/misc.php?do=cchatbox) is open!

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As always - please follow the DBR Posting Guidelines.

Let's Go Duke!

-jk

[Troublemaker]

DJ in for Joey (as expected)

Jeremy in for JGold (also as expected :-)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EoMO9nsW4AIOlwo?format=jpg&name=small

[WHOneedsSOX]

DJ in for Joey (as expected)

Jeremy in for JGold (also as expected :-)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EoMO9nsW4AIOlwo?format=jpg&name=small

Well that was fast. Thought Goldwire would last at least a few more games.

[rsvman]

Did nobody else see the backcourt violation right before their only basket?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Nice start. We look more confident with the ball. Will have to be to pull off a win tonight.

[4Gen]

Hurt Equality?

Roach Equality?

Say what?

[scottdude8]

Man this defense is impressive! I was worried that we couldn’t play this style with JG not in the lineup, but man am I happy to be wrong. Roach has taken his opportunity to start and run with it.

Foul trouble on the MSU bigs is going to be HUGE going forward.

[rsvman]

Hurt Equality?

Roach Equality?

Say what?

To be fair, roaches are often looked down upon and sometimes even swatted or stepped on.

[AGDukesky]

Great effort to start. State seems tight but Duke really came to play!

[AGDukesky]

Game turned ugly

[scottdude8]

GREAT cut by Brakefield there. That’s a savvy play from a frosh.

[AGDukesky]

Offense looks terrible now and shooting is awful

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Insane to call that flagrant.

[jjredickrules]

Flagrant 1 for barely a touch? Wow.

Edit: that’s “ball don’t lie” on those free throws

[WHOneedsSOX]

Guy was just out of control. Let go of the rim too early putting him off balance.

[AGDukesky]

Brakefield earning some minutes

[rsvman]

Offense looks like nothing more than mostly isolate and drive. We are going to need to increase teamwork on that end of the floor.

[arnie]

Brakefield earning some minutes

Probably at Baker’s expense.

[AGDukesky]

Johnson really makes this team go and it has stagnated the offense with him having two fouls. Moore needs to be more of a factor. Hurt driving has been nice and he seems stronger.

[rsvman]

Does Jalen have two fouls? He has been spending a lot of time on the bench. We need him on the court.

[AGDukesky]

Does Jalen have two fouls? He has been spending a lot of time on the bench. We need him on the court.

Yes he picked up his second on a soft call around 10 minutes in

[luvdahops]

Does Jalen have two fouls? He has been spending a lot of time on the bench. We need him on the court.

How does have two

[luvdahops]

Wendell does not look fluid at all on offense. Was hoping for a noticeable jump from him on that end, but haven’t seen it yet.

[rsvman]

Too many threes from Moore. Not his strong suit.

[AGDukesky]

Way too many bad shots with no movement. Moore has been really bad shooting long 3s. Hurt is the only offense right now.

[Sixthman]

Very discouraging.

[AGDukesky]

We are playing how I was worried we would from the beginning. Duke simply looks horrendous right now.

[rsvman]

Way too many bad shots with no movement. Moore has been really bad shooting long 3s. Hurt is the only offense right now.

Offense looks a lot better when jalen is on the court. Mich state has no answer for him. He needs to stay out of foul trouble.

[scottdude8]

We are playing how I was worried we would from the beginning. Duke simply looks horrendous right now.

Horrendous may be an exaggeration when we were playing without the guy who is clearly our best player the entire stretch. That half showed how pivotal Johnson is to our success.

[ratamero]

We scored 33 points. Defense is not the main issue.

[Chicago 1995]

Our half court offense isn’t great, but when Goldwire and Moore are out there together, it’s a dumpster fire. Got to adjust rotations to avoid it.

And Moore needs to holster the threes. Not his game.

[WVDUKEFAN]

Well, 3-point shooting isn't looking too good. Again.

[AGDukesky]

Horrendous may be an exaggeration when we were playing without the guy who is clearly our best player the entire stretch. That half showed how pivotal Johnson is to our success.

I agree it was due to no Johnson, but the offense and defense was really bad at the time I wrote it.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Duke is going to have trouble scoring all season. No facilitator and only 1 guy who can create his own shot.

[rsvman]

Why does ESPN continue to give Uncle Fester a paycheck? Truly baffling.
Guy is the best coach ever when he is on the tv with the talking heads. Not so much when he was actually on the sidelines.

[simplyluvin]

No offensive flow. Concerned that 1) we don't have a strong playmaker yet, and jury is out on Roach; hoping he develops quickly, and 2) who is going to score for us when we need a basket? Nobody to bail us out at the end of the shot clock like a Tre or RJ on this team. Really worried about this team.

[Billy Dat]

MSU flipped it on us, we were locking down in the halfcourt and running to start the game and that is how they finished and have a lead as a result. I like that we have been getting to the line but we look lost in the halfcourt and, as K likes to say about yourh, they can let offensive frustration impact their defense. I think Brakefield looks better than Wendell. Let’s see how we play the second 20.

[Bluedog]

MSU flipped it on us, we were locking down in the halfcourt and running to start the game and that is how they finished and have a lead as a result. I like that we have been getting to the line but we look lost in the halfcourt and, as K likes to say about yourh, they can let offensive frustration impact their defense. I think Brakefield looks better than Wendell. Let’s see how we play the second 20.

Brakefield looked pretty good, but looked winded to me which is why he committed a sloppy foul. I noticed he was hunched over with hands on knees...

[Devilwin]

No consistent scorers. No inside game. Very concerned about this team.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Trying to identify what we do well...

[arnie]

Duke is going to have trouble scoring all season. No facilitator and only 1 guy who can create his own shot.

I’d add Hurt this year to the list of guys getting their own shot. So we have 2, and maybe Steward. Roach, Moore, Baker and Goldwire aren’t able to create much, so we need to rely on Jalen, Hurt and Steward (suspect those 3 become minute hogs). Guess K will go small this year.

[weezie]

Rudderless. We're not used to seeing a Duke team without a pg...or at least one who looks for the play

[rsvman]

Hes Baker made a shot yet in these two games?

[rsvman]

Why are we overplaying Watts 28 feet from the basket? Why did Hurt not want to use the backboard on a drive to the basket?
We look weak on some fundamentals right now.

[Billy Dat]

Right now, we need to stop the bleeding. Let’s see who steps up.

[DukeHoo]

This feels like it's about to get ugly.

[Sixthman]

Do we have coaches?

[dukelion]

Might be a long year everyone.

Yes they are young and they need to learn but I hate when we don't have solid bigs to get us easy baskets....such a key in the college game.

I guess when we make some shots we'll be a tough out but i think we'll be an average at best 3pt team which makes us an average middling top 25 team at best.

Oh well....can't be Zionesque every year.

[rsvman]

Hard to overstate the importance of a guy like Tre Jones.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Michigan State isn't even bothering to contest Duke 3's. No one except Hurts is going to make it.

[DukeFanNotNBAFan]

Players need help from the coaches.
Sadly, this is the offense I’ve seen for a few years. Just doesn’t have a Zion or a Tre Jones to bail it out.
I like K, but there has been zero coaching on the offensive side of the ball for years. Look at Gonzaga’s offense compared to Duke.
I think Gonzaga’s players run an additional mile per game in half court offense compared to the statues on Duke.
There’s no offense without movement.
You have to coach, K.

[ratamero]

This is hard to watch. We'll get better over time (we always do), but the early ACC schedule might be rough.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Trying to identify what we do well...

I'm afraid I have my answer.

[simplyluvin]

Talent may be there, but this is a flawed and severely underdeveloped team. Right now, I see a 10 to 12 loss team. We don't have any identity, which may be translating to no offensive flow.

[jjredickrules]

This is hard to watch. We'll get better over time (we always do), but the early ACC schedule might be rough.

We usually get worse over time, honestly. 2010 and 2015 are the only exceptions that come to mind. Yes, big exceptions but most years we start hot then cool down.

[simplyluvin]

And Roach is a serious defensive liability...

[DukeFanNotNBAFan]

We usually get worse over time, honestly. 2010 and 2015 are the only exceptions that come to mind. Yes, big exceptions but most years we start hot then cool down.

I was gonna say...lol
How often do they improve as the year goes on?
Look at last year. Very good team in November and December. By March they were losing to Wake Forest and needed miracles to beat UNC. They were on their way to a quick out in the tournament.

[rsvman]

We can't get a loose ball, we can't get a rebound....... some have been lucky bounces, but some is just that they are working harder or smarter or both.

[heyman25]

Players need help from the coaches.
Sadly, this is the offense I’ve seen for a few years. Just doesn’t have a Zion or a Tre Jones to bail it out.
I like K, but there has been zero coaching on the offensive side of the ball for years. Look at Gonzaga’s offense compared to Duke.
I think Gonzaga’s players run an additional mile per game in half court offense compared to the statues on Duke.
There’s no offense without movement.
You have to coach, K.

Worst performance in Cameron
We are a terrible basketball team
Can’t get 50/50 balls can’t defend
Have no offense
I take away this team lacks fire and skill

[dukejim1]

MOTM - Brakefield. That is all you need to know about this game.

[jjredickrules]

Joey Baker leading us in steals
Jaemyn and Jordan with our only two 3’s
Very, very odd.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Duke ball handlers don't use the screen correctly. They dribble 3 feet away from the guy setting the screen. Pointless.

Moore just dribbled 5 feet away from his screener. Absolutely no point in setting screens if you're going to do that.

[heyman25]

Easy 3 pt play Hurt can’t finish

[arnie]

Joey Baker leading us in steals
Jaemyn and Jordan with our only two 3’s
Very, very odd.

Wendell Moore with an epic game.

[rsvman]

Signs of life now.

[heyman25]

Moore is a weak offensive player No improvement from
Last year

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

A little momentum. Still have no idea if this team is good, average, or below average.

[bluenorth]

It's going to be a long year. Vets like Goldwire and Moore will have their moments. Rookies will step up at times. Johnson will be a beast. But it is obviously going to take time to mesh all of the various talents (again). Gotta have faith in the staff and their plan. Until then, there will be some painful nights - as this one has been so far.

[rsvman]

Hurt really has problems finishing underneath. He doesn't seem like the answer at the five. Time to give Williams some burn?

[LasVegas]

Down 11 against a top ten team and this thread is unbearable. I always think this is the year DBR could have a good in game discussion going but NOPE. Silly me!

[DukeFanNotNBAFan]

Hurt really has problems finishing underneath. He doesn't seem like the answer at the five. Time to give Williams some burn?

He might have the weakest lower body on the team. Just doesn’t have a body for this caliber of competition

[luvdahops]

Our perimeter players are all being really bothered by the size and physicality of MSU. Roach arguably even more than Steward. Wendell just looks lost, as does Baker. Jordan at least giving us some life.

[jjredickrules]

Jordan Goldwire is only good when we’re down. He’s also very, VERY good when we’re down and need energy/a spark. Looks like he’s in Louisville form, but no one else is.

Edit: I say that and he throws a TO...

[heyman25]

It's going to be a long year. Vets like Goldwire and Moore will have their moments. Rookies will step up at times. Johnson will be a beast. But it is obviously going to take time to mesh all of the various talents (again). Gotta have faith in the staff and their plan. Until then, there will be some painful nights - as this one has been so far.

Moore has just looked bad. Hurt can’t finish with contact. Goldwire has been a spark but it’s a 40 minute game..That last play was boneheaded. We ain’t smart

[Billy Dat]

We have had chances to cut this down in the last few mins but haven’t made the stop or timely bucket we needed - Goldwire’s TO a key example.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

We have had chances to cut this down in the last few mins but haven’t made the stop or timely bucket we needed - Goldwire’s TO a key example.

Or the Baker air all 3.

[AtlBluRew]

Hurt really has problems finishing underneath. He doesn't seem like the answer at the five. Time to give Williams some burn?

I really prefer it when we have a legit 5. This team doesn’t, at least not so far. If no one develops, we’ll be a team that jacks and misses countless 3s.

[WHOneedsSOX]

Has Johnson scored at all this half? Foul trouble really took him out of the game.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

This may be the worst shooting Duke team since the mid 70’s.

[bluenorth]

Moore has just looked bad. Hurt can’t finish with contact. Goldwire has been a spark but it’s a 40 minute game..That last play was boneheaded. We ain’t smart

Can't argue with any of this. I don't like the body language right now. Let's see if they can close strong, especially the freshmen.

[szstark]

Why aren’t we trying to use our centers? Hurt, Johnson, and Williams make a pretty formidable front line.

[rsvman]

I believe Baker is oh-for the season from three. Might even be oh-for on the season for all shots, but I'm not sure.

[heyman25]

Down 11 against a top ten team and this thread is unbearable. I always think this is the year DBR could have a good in game discussion going but NOPE. Silly me!

What do you expect Duke fans to not react to mistake forced errors poor hustle plays

[rsvman]

A little nba continuation call there?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

If this Duke team is the sixth best team in the country, the state of college basketball this year is quite poor.

[AtlDuke72]

Hurt really has problems finishing underneath. He doesn't seem like the answer at the five. Time to give Williams some burn?

Hurt has 18 points and 12 rebounds.

[TKG]

A little nba continuation call there?

Just getting our #1 rated recruiting class ready for next year. We are a full service one-year destination.

[DukeFanNotNBAFan]

Basketball can be extremely entertaining to watch and play. If you look at how Gonzaga plays, you’re instantly entertained, and I have to assume the players have fun on the court.

This is not entertaining. This is AAU garbage.

This is on the coaches. 100% blame goes to them.

[dukejim1]

These backboards have been abused tonight

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Basketball can be extremely entertaining to watch and play. If you look at how Gonzaga plays, you’re instantly entertained, and I have to assume the players have fun on the court.

This is not entertaining. This is AAU garbage.

This is on the coaches. 100% blame goes to them.

Wow. Quite the statement.

This doesn't feel like a Final Four team, sure. But "garbage" is a bit strong.

[AtlBluRew]

I believe Baker is oh-for the season from three. Might even be oh-for on the season for all shots, but I'm not sure.

Baker fouled but I think he held his own on D today and wonder if that hasn’t been an emphasis in practice.

[wavedukefan70s]

Having a hard time watching with no fans 😕.
https://i.ibb.co/LtHd3vq/20201201-211807.jpg (https://ibb.co/jMskSHx)
So i dove into my happy box pulled out 1985 .

[SouthernDukie]

Just getting our #1 rated recruiting class ready for next year. We are a full service one-year destination.

But the one-and-doners are getting worse each season. I only see one legit (keyword) guy this year in JJ. None of the other freshmen are solid first rounders. Of course it’s super early, but still...

[Sixthman]

But the one-and-doners are getting worse each season. I only see one legit (keyword) guy this year in JJ. None of the other freshmen are solid first rounders. Of course it’s super early, but still...

I don’t see any other 2021 draft picks among the freshmen.

[rsvman]

Hurt has 18 points and 12 rebounds.

OK, but he has failed to finish at least four times that I can remember and maybe more when he was under the basket and went up weak or too late or at the wrong angle.
The fact that a player has 18 points doesn't imply that he hasn't left a lot of points on the table. He could easily have had 24 points or more.

[DukeFanNotNBAFan]

Wow. Quite the statement.

This doesn't feel like a Final Four team, sure. But "garbage" is a bit strong.

Win or lose, I’d like to see them play a good, entertaining brand of basketball. Move on offense, use pick and roll, create open shots and driving lanes.

This isn’t any of that. This is stand around and go one on one.

This is the same offense when Zion was here and last year.

How about this staff actually do some coaching?
This is why I hate that K never hires anyone from the outside. It just becomes an echo chamber.

[TywinBlue]

Basketball can be extremely entertaining to watch and play. If you look at how Gonzaga plays, you’re instantly entertained, and I have to assume the players have fun on the court.

This is not entertaining. This is AAU garbage.

This is on the coaches. 100% blame goes to them.

I miss the students; I miss the band; this is sad.

There is no energy in Cameron and it shows.

Unless something changes Illinois is going to humiliate us.

Maybe the worst Duke shooting performance I've seen in 40 years.

[DukeFanNotNBAFan]

I miss the students; I miss the band; this is sad.

There is no energy in Cameron and it shows.

Unless something changes Illinois is going to humiliate us.

Maybe the worst Duke shooting performance I've seen in 40 years.

Most of their shots have come with a hand in their face. It doesn’t have to be that way.

[bluenorth]

I don’t see any other 2021 draft picks among the freshmen.

They'd better develop fast. We need spots for the class of '21 recruits.

[SouthernDukie]

I don’t see any other 2021 draft picks among the freshmen.

Agreed. Perhaps Stewart if he really improves during the year, but that’s it.

[WHOneedsSOX]

They'd better develop fast. We need spots for the class of '21 recruits.

What happens if just Johnson leaves? I assume they'd have to pull offers from guys?

[DukeFanNotNBAFan]

I can’t believe we’ve gotten to a point in college basketball where I’m staggered when I see a player hit both free throws. AAU coaches and “skills trainers” should be brought up on charges for what they’ve done to this sport.

[bluenorth]

What happens if just Johnson leaves? I assume they'd have to pull offers from guys?

Or not have any walk-ons. And don't forget the transfer portal for guys getting no minutes.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I can’t believe we’ve gotten to a point in college basketball where I’m staggered when I see a player hit both free throws. AAU coaches and “skills trainers” should be brought up on charges for what they’ve done to this sport.

I thought AAU was garbage?

If this game had 2 more minutes, we might have won.

[SouthernDukie]

What happens if just Johnson leaves? I assume they'd have to pull offers from guys?

No offense intended, but I hope not. We will need more than just the others on this team being a year older.

[heyman25]

We got lucky to cut it to 6. All
I hope is they will get some coaching to clean up their game. Against quality team we were not sharp. Poor shooting and lousy anticipation of getting rebounds . Maybe not the worst Cameron performance but that was bad team basketball.

[ingrjc1]

Need some on court leadership. This needs to come from someone who can stay on the court. How about more of Brakefield?

[miramar]

Duke ended up losing by six even though...

Moore, Steward, Baker, and Williams went 0-20.

Baker didn't score yet fouled out.

Duke shot 21.7% on threes, but only thanks to a couple of late shots, including a bank shot from Hurt.

Instead of going up strong, Duke was throwing up some of the worst looking shots from up close that I have ever seen. Lord knows how many didn't even touch the rim.

Hurt scored 21, but he was the only guy with over 11 points.

It's early and many of the guys are young, so this is fixable. I don't quite get the it's on the coaches attitude since as a group they have what many of us consider impressive resumes. Not to mention that once you get to quadruple figures in victories that tends to suggest you know what you're doing.

[AtlDuke72]

I can’t believe we’ve gotten to a point in college basketball where I’m staggered when I see a player hit both free throws. AAU coaches and “skills trainers” should be brought up on charges for what they’ve done to this sport.

The whining on this board is too much to take. Duke 80% of their free throws.

[cbarry]

Has there been any explanation of why Coleman and Tapé are not playing? Total of less than 1 minute total between them. I mean, give them some burn, Coach! Mix it up a bit. We are so broken right now, it can’t hurt.

[Dukehk]

This one came too soon for us.

Worried that without Elon we might struggle and lose more confidence going straight against Illinois.

[soflabluedevil]

Players need help from the coaches.
Sadly, this is the offense I’ve seen for a few years. Just doesn’t have a Zion or a Tre Jones to bail it out.
I like K, but there has been zero coaching on the offensive side of the ball for years. Look at Gonzaga’s offense compared to Duke.
I think Gonzaga’s players run an additional mile per game in half court offense compared to the statues on Duke.
There’s no offense without movement.
You have to coach, K.

You left out “go” in front of K. No offense, no movement, one on one from 28’ with ridiculous casts from 3 pt range by guys who aren’t shooters. It all falls on K. I don’t expect a finished product this early but street ball is unacceptable. Playing quicker opponents 25-30’ out and suffering repeated blowbys for 15 years is tiresome to say the least. We need to clean house and bring in a non-K player/sycophant.

[UrinalCake]

Our lack of offensive execution was pretty astonishing. Not just that the shooting was poor, but that we didn't seem to have any sort of game plan other than occasionally running a horns set. I don't know if there is an official stat for air balled three pointers but we likely broke it tonight. Most of them were terrible shots. Just stand there and then jack it up without any ball movement. Wendell Moore was the worst offender, I suppose he was trying to show "leadership" by taking horrible shots and dominating the ball but he appears to have actually regressed from last season. When he did try to drive the lane it was usually a turnover.

Hurt had a good game, he can really take advantage of slower defenders at the 5 spot. Brakefield looks like he's deserving of minutes. Steward and Roach just weren't prepared for this level of physicality, any time they got into the paint they were pushed out and went up weakly with the ball. I do think they should be starting in the backcourt even though Goldwire had a decent game. We only had 12 turnovers which is a massive improvement over the Coppin State game, and 80% at the line is solid. Free throws gave us the lead over the first 10 minutes, but it was pretty ugly from then on.

[jipops]

Other than the fact we lost there really isn’t much reason to be negative. Our 2 best perimeter players had miserable games and our best player by far was just mediocre. Yet we only lost by single digits to a veteran Power 5 team with a great coach. Things will get better, count on it.

[UrinalCake]

Other than the fact we lost there really isn’t much reason to be negative. Our 2 best perimeter players had miserable games and our best player by far was just mediocre. Yet we only lost by single digits to a veteran Power 5 team with a great coach. Things will get better, count on it.

i personally don't feel that playing miserably yet only losing by a small final margin is reason for optimism. Also MSU shot really poorly too, yet they were ahead by 10-12 points for most of the second half.

[Skydog]

I can’t believe we’ve gotten to a point in college basketball where I’m staggered when I see a player hit both free throws. AAU coaches and “skills trainers” should be brought up on charges for what they’ve done to this sport.
Im pretty sure cbb ft % has been improving almost every year. The take ‘they aren’t like they used to be” is every generations refrain but thats mostly because we have rose colored memories.

[ClemmonsDevil]

Having a hard time watching with no fans 😕.
https://i.ibb.co/LtHd3vq/20201201-211807.jpg (https://ibb.co/jMskSHx)
So i dove into my happy box pulled out 1985 .

I was at that App game! My dad had a player playing for both teams in that one!

[UrinalCake]

I can’t believe we’ve gotten to a point in college basketball where I’m staggered when I see a player hit both free throws.

I have the same reaction when a player hits the front end of a 1 and 1. I just assume it's not going in.