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JasonEvans
11-10-2007, 09:25 PM
Speculation about who should be Duke's next head football coach will lead to posts being deleted and infraction points being given. Until the day Ted Roof is fired or quits at Duke, it is not appropriate for fasn to usher him out the door or actively seek replacements.

It hurts fan morale
It hurts team morale
It causes huge problems for recruiting
And it shows a lack of respect for a man who is trying his hardest to make Duke football into something respectible... trust me, Ted Roof cares a heck of a lot more about this than all of us on this board. I bet no one is more frustrated than he is.

Feel free to discuss football in a constructive way, but demanding a new coach and discussing replacements for someone who is still currently the Duke coach is not constructive.

--Jason "I'm frustrated too, but I still support Roof and the kids who go to war with him every Satruday" Evans

John Q. Devil
11-10-2007, 09:58 PM
Has this board gotten to the point where no criticism whatsoever is acceptable? What a joke.
(rest of post redacted)

JasonEvans
11-10-2007, 10:05 PM
Has this board gotten to the point where no criticism whatsoever is acceptable? What a joke.
(rest of post redacted)

If you are not capable of talking about the struggles of the football team without advocating the firing of the head coach then you are not a very good debater/commentator.

I/we are not saying criticism is not allowed. Heck, criticize Roof if you want. But, do not call for him to be fired or speculate about his replacement.

The best thing that could happen for Duke would be for Ted Roof to be successful enough to be Duke's football coach for the next decade or longer.

-Jason

Turtleboy
11-10-2007, 10:35 PM
Has this board gotten to the point where no criticism whatsoever is acceptable? What a joke.
(rest of post redacted)Apparently.

DU82
11-11-2007, 01:16 AM
If you are not capable of talking about the struggles of the football team without advocating the firing of the head coach then you are not a very good debater/commentator.

I/we are not saying criticism is not allowed. Heck, criticize Roof if you want. But, do not call for him to be fired or speculate about his replacement.

The best thing that could happen for Duke would be for Ted Roof to be successful enough to be Duke's football coach for the next decade or longer.

-Jason

Yes, it is tiring to hear the same old stuff after every game, but there's a reason for it. Our school (favorite, alma mater, whatever) has a terrible football team. Why is that? Is it still related to the previous football coaches, that dug us a huge hole to climb out of? Is it the current coaching staff, players, or a combination?

Let's discuss the GT game.

The good: I thought Kevin Jones had his best game punting. He had to do it way too often, and from poor field position, but he's come a long way since the UCon game. I only remember one really good return by GT, and that was on a punt from the end zone, into the wind. (The returner caught the ball on the dead run, letting him run past the defenders for a ~20 year gain.)

The defense played well at times, and contained the normal running plays fairly well.

The bad: everything else. The defense gave up way too many big plays. According to the paper, GT snapped to a running back 11 times for 84 yards. That's knowing they were going to run. We practiced against that play all week, and still were horrible at containing it. IS that execution, or is that bad preparation?

Eron Riley. If you're team is 1-8, and down 14 points, if you happen to score a touchdown after dropping quite a few passes on the day, don't showboat into the end zone. It cost your team field position, and another score before the half. Many a coach would have sat your butt on the bench. Is this a lack of discipline?

Question to the head coach? Are you involved in the offense? A couple of times, during time outs, you came over to the offensive huddle, but never went in to discuss the play. Are you satisfied with how your offensive coordinator is handling things? (Honestly, this is a question that we wondered about. I understand allowing the coordinator a free hand, that's how Red Wilson did things, and it worked better than all but one coach in my 30 seasons of watching Duke football. It just looked odd out there to come over to the huddle, but then not go in.)

There. That's three direct things from this past game that go directly to the ability of the head coach. Earlier this season, we made clear progress. But the last few games, it appears we've gone backwards. Is that due to injuries, or is it due to lack of preparation and coaching?

NYC Duke Fan
11-11-2007, 05:08 AM
Speculation about who should be Duke's next head football coach will lead to posts being deleted and infraction points being given. Until the day Ted Roof is fired or quits at Duke, it is not appropriate for fasn to usher him out the door or actively seek replacements.

It hurts fan morale
It hurts team morale
It causes huge problems for recruiting
And it shows a lack of respect for a man who is trying his hardest to make Duke football into something respectible... trust me, Ted Roof cares a heck of a lot more about this than all of us on this board. I bet no one is more frustrated than he is.

Feel free to discuss football in a constructive way, but demanding a new coach and discussing replacements for someone who is still currently the Duke coach is not constructive.

--Jason "I'm frustrated too, but I still support Roof and the kids who go to war with him every Satruday" Evans

It is interesting to note that in the past there have been posts entitled,"Fire Joe Alleva". Yet those posts were allowed to be run. What is the difference ?

Noone is not supporting the kids who go out and bust their butts every Saturday. I understand that Coach Roof is a really decent, hard-working guy.No body likes to see another individual lose their jobs; they have families and financial responsibilities. That said, when Coach Roof decided that he wanted to be a college head football coach, he knew or should have known that his tenure anywhere would be based solely on his performance.That is the nature of a college head football coach.

If I am not mistaken, and I could be, you have previously posted that wins were not the most important barometer in assessing a coach's performance. In your estimation , then what is ? There is an excellent chance that Duke will lose its next 2 games to Notre Dame and UNC which would bring the last two season's record to 1-23. If you are satisfied with that then that is OK but I think that you would be in the distinct minority of the posters on this board.

Lastly, I, and I am sure others , would like to hear your objective assessment of the job that Coach Roof has done as the head coach at Duke.

JasonEvans
11-11-2007, 05:57 AM
It is interesting to note that in the past there have been posts entitled,"Fire Joe Alleva". Yet those posts were allowed to be run. What is the difference ?

No one is not supporting the kids who go out and bust their butts every Saturday. I understand that Coach Roof is a really decent, hard-working guy.No body likes to see another individual lose their jobs; they have families and financial responsibilities. That said, when Coach Roof decided that he wanted to be a college head football coach, he knew or should have known that his tenure anywhere would be based solely on his performance.That is the nature of a college head football coach.

If I am not mistaken, and I could be, you have previously posted that wins were not the most important barometer in assessing a coach's performance. In your estimation , then what is ? There is an excellent chance that Duke will lose its next 2 games to Notre Dame and UNC which would bring the last two season's record to 1-23. If you are satisfied with that then that is OK but I think that you would be in the distinct minority of the posters on this board.

Lastly, I, and I am sure others , would like to hear your objective assessment of the job that Coach Roof has done as the head coach at Duke.

I am still where I have been since the beginning of the season-- I think Roof deserves more time. Now, in no way am I as confident about the team's performance as I was a few weeks ago. A few weeks ago I really felt this program was really headed in a positive direction. As one of the ESPN analysts wrote, "Duke has not turned the corner, but Ted Roof has them at least peeking around it" I really felt that it where we were and I was upset at the folks who wanted to place arbitrary win total requirements on Roof.

I still feel wins are a poor measure. Yes, I want to win as much as the next guy but there are other markers that an intelligent observer of sports can see to determine if a program is making progress. It was clear to me a few weeks ago that we were certainly making progress and improving, even if it was not yet reflected in wins. That is less clear to me now, but I still think Roof and his team deserve more time. Frankly, unless it is clear the coach has lost control of the team, I think any discussion of a coach's future during the season are counter-productive and foolish.

I am not satisfied with 1-23 (if that is how this season ends). I want us to win. I am not sure if Ted Roof is the man who can fix things for us but he is the guy with that job for now. I can think of many things about his coaching tenure so far that do not please me, especially the offensive play-calling and execution. Still, he is the coach and deserves our respect and support until such time he is no longer the coach. As I stated at the beginning of this thread, I think it is harmful to the program to discuss firing the coach or discussing his replacements during the season.

Finally, the folks who own and run this website have asked the people who post here to follow certain guidelines when they post. It has been stated on numerous occasions that demands for Roof's firing would not be tolerated. While we want to keep as many posters as we can, please know that there are other websites with bulletin boards which would welcome you if you wish to post stuff that is not allowed here. But, while you are here, I don't think it is too much to ask you to follow the wishes of the folks who run this joint.

--Jason "for the record, I see the AD as being different from a coach as his job is more ongoing, not seasonal, and his relationship with the players and recruits is more distant" Evans

Kimist
11-11-2007, 06:04 AM
Although I frequently review the information on the DBR, I (as you can see) put up very few posts. It is obvious that some "regulars" spend most of their entire waking existence posting on these boards. That is their right, and I have no problems with such behavior. I do find DBR to be a welcome island of peace, an observation that is further supported whenever I read some of the absolute trash that is allowed on the boards for many of those other ACC schools.

Having said all of that, I am taken a bit aback by the apparent position now taken by DBR on any negative board comments about the current condition of the Duke football program. There ARE problems with the program, regardless of whether they originate with President Brodhead, the team managers, or the numerous folks in-between. I have no personal animosity toward Coach Roof and his staff. I fully understand that in most cases the players are giving their best. It does not require a rocket scientist to note the extreme frustration resulting from the continuing downward spiral, including the torment personally shown by Coach Roof.

I have been attending games in Wade Stadium since the "splinters up your [behind]" days of the 60's. It is truly sad to see the continuing dismal state of Duke football. My college-age children have (except from TV) no idea what a "big" football game involves, and certainly not one on the Duke campus. (A trip to see a Duke win in Neyland Stadium was a welcome break!) When the attendance of fans for the visiting team often exceeds that of those from the home team, something is terribly wrong. When a team can perhaps eke out just one or two wins in a season, there IS a problem somewhere.

IF I had a reasonable solution, I would at least toss it around here. Unfortunately, I do not. I do fervently feel that well-intentioned statements, to include "negative" comments, should not be overly moderated on these boards.

Here's hoping for at least some demonstrable meaningful progress in the football program, as well as to a great season with those hardwood guys of Cameron Indoor Stadium!

k

JasonEvans
11-11-2007, 06:53 AM
Having said all of that, I am taken a bit aback by the apparent position now taken by DBR on any negative board comments about the current condition of the Duke football program.

I am not sure where you have gotten this impression but you are 100% wrong.

The DBR has no policy at all regarding criticism of the team or the coach with the singular exception that it is unproductive and negative to call for the firing of the coach or discuss potential replacements (which is essentially the same as calling for his firing). In fact, we greatly encourage and want other criticism, so long as it is framed in a constructive fashion and seeks to support and improve our football team.

I know many folks will say that th best way to improve the football team is firing the coach. Regardless of whether that is something I agree with or not, it is not something that is going to happen before the season is over (unless he loses control of the team). I see no reason to wildly speculate about the future until the season is done. The kids are still trying to win games and compete. Roof is still trying as well. Until this season is behind us, I think it is quite reasonable to ask fans to support the kids and the program and the coach in a positive fashion.

--Jason "anyone who thinks all criticism is forbidden is really not paying attention to what is being written by the moderators" Evans

bluepenguin
11-11-2007, 06:55 AM
Speculation about who should be Duke's next head football coach will lead to posts being deleted and infraction points being given. Until the day Ted Roof is fired or quits at Duke, it is not appropriate for fasn to usher him out the door or actively seek replacements.

It hurts fan morale
It hurts team morale
It causes huge problems for recruiting
And it shows a lack of respect for a man who is trying his hardest to make Duke football into something respectible... trust me, Ted Roof cares a heck of a lot more about this than all of us on this board. I bet no one is more frustrated than he is.

Feel free to discuss football in a constructive way, but demanding a new coach and discussing replacements for someone who is still currently the Duke coach is not constructive.

--Jason "I'm frustrated too, but I still support Roof and the kids who go to war with him every Satruday" Evans

Jason Evans was the last person I expected to quash first amendment rights. Why shouldn't we be allowed to criticize a team, coach, program that hasn't won a conference game in years? And, do you really think our criticism on this board is going to keeping them from succeeding?
I think the criticism is no worse than having to read the drippy love fest that goes on every season, where posters "analyze" the team and tell us they expect the team to go .500.
Or how about the basketball team? Yesterday's article on the NCCU game in DBR said: "...it’s become ever clearer that we may be in the presence of greatness. Kyle Singler is showing every sign of being an extraordinary talent. His basic gifts will leave Duke fans and everyone else searching for comparisons." Don't you think spewing that kind of hyperbole after the kid has only played one regular season game in his life (and that against an out-matched team, in Cameron) is a bit ridiculous? Isn't it possible that creating that kind of expectation this early, could affect his ability to perform? How many times have we seen players get frustrated (and fans) because they did not live up to the media's expectations.
To me, that is a much bigger problem, than criticizing Roof on these boards.
Please, Jason, you have always been a voice of reason on these boards - rethink what you posted. It's just not right.

JasonEvans
11-11-2007, 07:14 AM
Jason Evans was the last person I expected to quash first amendment rights. Why shouldn't we be allowed to criticize a team, coach, program that hasn't won a conference game in years? And, do you really think our criticism on this board is going to keeping them from succeeding?

For all the people who are reading comprehension challenged, I am going to say this one last time...

WE ARE NOT CENSORING OR STOPPING ALL CRITICISM OF THE FOOTBALL TEAM!!!!

How hard is it to understand that? Show me one place where any Moderator was unclear about our policy on this!!!! We have one very simple request which I will now repeat for about the 150th time...

Do not post about wanting Ted Roof fired or speculating about his replacement during the regular season.

It is the opinion of the people who run this website and pay for it to exist that calls for Roof's firing are destructively negative and harm the program in a number of ways. If you disagree, feel free to take your opinion on the football team elsewhere.


I think the criticism is no worse than having to read the drippy love fest that goes on every season, where posters "analyze" the team and tell us they expect the team to go .500.

Yeah, because fan optimism is such a horrible thing. As an aside, I can identify at least 4 games so far this season that Duke could have quite easily won had a few things broken their way. It seems silly to say so, but .500 would not have been that impossible.



Or how about the basketball team? Yesterday's article on the NCCU game in DBR said: "...it’s become ever clearer that we may be in the presence of greatness. Kyle Singler is showing every sign of being an extraordinary talent. His basic gifts will leave Duke fans and everyone else searching for comparisons." Don't you think spewing that kind of hyperbole after the kid has only played one regular season game in his life (and that against an out-matched team, in Cameron) is a bit ridiculous? Isn't it possible that creating that kind of expectation this early, could affect his ability to perform? How many times have we seen players get frustrated (and fans) because they did not live up to the media's expectations.
To me, that is a much bigger problem, than criticizing Roof on these boards.
Please, Jason, you have always been a voice of reason on these boards - rethink what you posted. It's just not right.

I did not write that and did not see the game so I am hamstrung a bit when it comes to discussing that paragraph. I do concur that it is often a mistake to extrapolate great things based on just a couple early season games against overmatched opponents. I famously stated that Shav Randolph's jersey would someday be retired by Duke after watching his first two games of his freshman year. Oooops ;)

Thanks for thinking of me as a voice of reason. I actually think the stance of the DBR in this thread is quite reasonable -- which is why I am defending it so strongly.

--Jason "go back and look at what Shav did his first 2 games... I wasn't that crazy to think he'd be an all-timer" Evans

YmoBeThere
11-11-2007, 07:56 AM
It is obvious that some "regulars" spend most of their entire waking existence posting on these boards. That is their right, and I have no problems with such behavior.
k

I am just curious if you have no problems with it, why even mention it? Okay, I am being unnecessarily nitpicky and snarky...I apologize.

JE seems to be catching a lot of heat for his removal of a thread and for a long time, I saw such an action differently. However, last night, there was a post that I agree went over the line. I commented as much in the thread before it was removed.

There are many, many people that are frustrated with the progress or lack thereof as each week goes by. And it has genearlly gotten more quiet here with each week as frustration has been reduced to indifference. And this is where the balance has to be struck, allowing those frustrated voices to continue to offer their constructive criticism and weeding out those with nothing more to add to the conversation than, let's go get Coach XXX from XXX University.

It was the latter which was removed, not the former.

TheTrain
11-11-2007, 08:23 AM
Feel free to join most Duke football fans over The Devils Den where the discussion of Roof, recruiting, the direction of Duke football and college football in general goes on in a civil and uncensored way

Kimist
11-11-2007, 09:35 AM
I am just curious if you have no problems with it, why even mention it? Okay, I am being unnecessarily nitpicky and snarky...I apologize.



No underlying animus, as I thought I had stated earlier.

I have kept up with DBR for a very long time, and even found an old "juliovision.com" bookmark lurking, created far prior to my shown "join date." Over the years I have noted that there are board members who seem to post messages all of the time, frequently at least bordering on an argumentative stance with a few other board members. The moderators do an excellent job of keeping things civil, and I am extremely grateful for that aspect of these boards.

There are some posts where I read every word. There are some posts which I choose merely to scan, or even to ignore, to a certain degree based upon "who" wrote them. One might reasonably infer that a person who posts multi-messages on a daily basis here either is a super fan or possibly just has a lot of spare time available. Some seem to have an agenda, and some just like to "talk."

In the meanwhile, I shall continue to read as frequently as my own busy schedule allows, and to post rarely. Others may do whatever they wish without any recriminations (stated/unstated/implied) from moi.

Apology accepted.


- "I see no reason to elaborate further here" - kimist

chrishoke
11-11-2007, 09:45 AM
Train is right. I like both boards. I even read IC every once in a blue moon.

Jason, you and the other mods here do a great job!

feldspar
11-11-2007, 09:46 AM
It is interesting to note that in the past there have been posts entitled,"Fire Joe Alleva". Yet those posts were allowed to be run. What is the difference ?

Excellent point.

I wouldn't mind an explanation on that, either.

dukie8
11-11-2007, 09:55 AM
The DBR has no policy at all regarding criticism of the team or the coach with the singular exception that it is unproductive and negative to call for the firing of the coach or discuss potential replacements (which is essentially the same as calling for his firing). In fact, we greatly encourage and want other criticism, so long as it is framed in a constructive fashion and seeks to support and improve our football team.

this is what i don't understand. how is it "unproductive and negative" to discuss replacements for roof? there have been numerous threads over the past couple of months that have done just that and i have found them to be entirely PRODUCTIVE and POSITIVE. posters who know a lot more about college football than i have made some very insightful comments about which other coaches and/or coordinators could do well at duke because they have done well in similar situations (eg, tough academics, less than stellar facilities and less than an enormous fan base). i have read what they have posted and have come away with a greater understanding of the situation. to me that is productive and positive. apparently it isn't.

-jk
11-11-2007, 09:58 AM
Folks, please. Julio's posting guidelines (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3350) state that the DBR boards are here "to foster a sense of community" and "to encourage intelligent discussion, debate, and commentary in a fun and civil atmosphere."

We've maintained that speculating on Coach Roof's termination or replacement before the end of the season is premature and destructive to the team and is, ipso facto, "destructively negative".

We cannot - we will not - tolerate this board devolving into the morass of whining and flaming and sniping so well exemplified by so many other sports boards out there. If that's what you want in a board, please feel free to go find it.

The rest of you are welcome to write whatever you like about the current football team, so long as you play by our rules: Until the end of the season, you can (constructively) critique Roof, his staff, and the football team all you want. After the season, you can (constructively) discuss Roof's employment situation.

(And we're a private entity; please leave the "first amendment rights" straw man out of it.)

Regards,

-jk

OZZIE4DUKE
11-11-2007, 10:00 AM
Welcome back Kimist, and bluepenquin too! Your names have been absent far too long on the posted by side of things!

Before yesterday's game, I asked one of the most ardent "fire Roof" folks I know who he was rooting for yesterday, since a win would likely have secured Roof's position for next season, and he said "Duke, but it is tough to do so". You all know him and he passes the loyalty test. Same thing applies for the next two weeks: who are you rooting for? Notre Dame? carolina? If you are, take your stuff and go elsewhere.

JasonEvans
11-11-2007, 10:02 AM
Excellent point.

I wouldn't mind an explanation on that, either.

As I stated earlier--


I see the AD as being different from a coach as his job is more ongoing, not seasonal, and his relationship with the players and recruits is more distant.

If you want to call for Alleva's firing and can do it in a reasonable way and with logical arguments to back it up, I am fine with that. I think the DBR might prefer if you did not scream it in the title of a thread.

There is a poster whose posting name is firealleva. The mods discussed this for a while and we have allowed it to stand. I am not a big fan of it though.

-Jason "if this board had been around in 1983, I am sure there would have been a poster with FireMike as his posting name" Evans

formerdukeathlete
11-11-2007, 10:06 AM
Yes, it is tiring to hear the same old stuff after every game, but there's a reason for it. Our school (favorite, alma mater, whatever) has a terrible football team. Why is that? Is it still related to the previous football coaches, that dug us a huge hole to climb out of? Is it the current coaching staff, players, or a combination?

Let's discuss the GT game.

The good: I thought Kevin Jones had his best game punting. He had to do it way too often, and from poor field position, but he's come a long way since the UCon game. I only remember one really good return by GT, and that was on a punt from the end zone, into the wind. (The returner caught the ball on the dead run, letting him run past the defenders for a ~20 year gain.)

The defense played well at times, and contained the normal running plays fairly well.

The bad: everything else. The defense gave up way too many big plays. According to the paper, GT snapped to a running back 11 times for 84 yards. That's knowing they were going to run. We practiced against that play all week, and still were horrible at containing it. IS that execution, or is that bad preparation?

Eron Riley. If you're team is 1-8, and down 14 points, if you happen to score a touchdown after dropping quite a few passes on the day, don't showboat into the end zone. It cost your team field position, and another score before the half. Many a coach would have sat your butt on the bench. Is this a lack of discipline?

Question to the head coach? Are you involved in the offense? A couple of times, during time outs, you came over to the offensive huddle, but never went in to discuss the play. Are you satisfied with how your offensive coordinator is handling things? (Honestly, this is a question that we wondered about. I understand allowing the coordinator a free hand, that's how Red Wilson did things, and it worked better than all but one coach in my 30 seasons of watching Duke football. It just looked odd out there to come over to the huddle, but then not go in.)

There. That's three direct things from this past game that go directly to the ability of the head coach. Earlier this season, we made clear progress. But the last few games, it appears we've gone backwards. Is that due to injuries, or is it due to lack of preparation and coaching?

goes beyond normative, and assesses, analyzes game day performance like (presumably) will members of the athletics advisory council who were also former Duke footballers.

Play calling has been too conservative during this season - is this Vaas, or is this the result of directives applied by Vass?

Team performance, statistically, has declined game on game. I think this has to do with coaching, preparation, a little bit due to injuries.

Getting back to our AD. He was a qb at Lehigh when Lehigh played pretty good football. I have to think he knows the situation better than many think. More commitment from the University (apparently coming according to Bill Brill) may be what he needs. Folks, including John Feinstein have commented that Alleva hired Roof over Bobby Ross, how could he do that?! I would invite folks on the Board who were inolved at the time to comment on the commitments Ross wanted from the Duke admin. which were not forthcoming at the time. Was it Alleva's job to be an inspirational, motivational leader and to have convinced Nan to agree to prioritize football at the time? I have to think Joe can analyze whether we are getting good football under the circumstances. It then becomes a University, Trustee matter to get involved and help right the course.

dukie8
11-11-2007, 10:09 AM
As I stated earlier--



If you want to call for Alleva's firing and can do it in a reasonable way and with logical arguments to back it up, I am fine with that. I think the DBR might prefer if you did not scream it in the title of a thread.

There is a poster whose posting name is firealleva. The mods discussed this for a while and we have allowed it to stand. I am not a big fan of it though.

-Jason "if this board had been around in 1983, I am sure there would have been a poster with FireMike as his posting name" Evans

in the same vein, is the poster "fireolgilvie" calling for the firing of the track coach?

Jumbo
11-11-2007, 10:15 AM
Jason Evans was the last person I expected to quash first amendment rights.

I didn't realize Jason Evans was a government entity. Oh, wait, he's not. So leave the First Amendment out of this, because you have no right to "free speech" on a private site. Only the government can deprive you of this right.

Moving along, I understand some of the frustration and confusion in this thread. And the mods are still talking abut how to handle this issue. It's a difficult one, and just as we'd be idiotic to want to zap the board of all criticism, other people would be just as idiotic to equate speculating about a new coach while one currently has the job to "all criticism."

Now, I have my own feelings about this situation, and I'm currently discussing it with the other mods. And I'd like to think we can come up with some sort of a policy that satisfies as many parties as possible. But for all of you who are upset that you can't hop onto your computer and advocate the firing of Ted Roof or the hiring of Coach X, Y and Z, I ask you this: What's the point? You're talking about a man's livelihood. It's really easy to sit down with an anonymous screen name and take shots at people you don't know. It requires no courage. But does it make you feel better? Does it change anything? Or is it just a way for you to let off steam?

If you want to let off steam, there are plenty of places on the Internet to do that. That's what most boards have become, and they are almost all unreadable. I can't even wade through the crap on TDD, because people are so ill-informed and quick on the trigger. It's embarrassing to watch them discuss the few subjects about which I'm actually privy to real information. They couldn't be more wrong.

The DBR has always set the bar higher. If you want to say something, you'd better a) do it respectfully b) have a heck of a lot of support/backup for you argument and c) have a dose of perspective that carries through.

I think it's possible to discuss Ted Roof and Duke football while satisfying the three requirements above and, as I said, we're still discussing it. But rest assured that if it's too difficult for someone to elevate his/her level of discourse to fit what's desired here, they won't be tolerated.

Jumbo
11-11-2007, 10:17 AM
Feel free to join most Duke football fans over The Devils Den where the discussion of Roof, recruiting, the direction of Duke football and college football in general goes on in a civil and uncensored way

You forgot to add "unintelligible" to that list...

jlear
11-11-2007, 10:26 AM
I attend all the home games and watch/listen to all of our away games and everything I believe about where this team is and where this team is going, without change, is destructively negative. But I will say that calls for the coaching staff to be retained should be deleted as no one can argue against it by rule.

If things are left as they are then we should have similar results. I will attempt to make a louder statement about my feelings on football to the Iron Dukes, I am certain they have more pull than crying here. I will be reducing my annual donation considerably, likely reducing my basketball seats, and I will no longer purchase football season tickets.

allenmurray
11-11-2007, 10:32 AM
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Benjamin Franklin

killerleft
11-11-2007, 10:33 AM
I advocate giving Coach Roof more time, just as Jason Evans does. I don't like reading the "fire and hire" threads and posts. Still, I wouldn't ban them, as long as they are civil.

But the owners and moderators have stated time and time again their opposition to personal attacks on players and coaches. There's no doubt some posts will always cross that line.

Bottom line? Their site, their rules.

I am sure the decision was made only after much thought, and that's good enough for me. As to whether it will have some positive effect, I don't think it will.

YmoBeThere
11-11-2007, 10:41 AM
in the same vein, is the poster "fireolgilvie" calling for the firing of the track coach?
I figured they wanted to oust Joe Ogilvie from his position on the PGA player's union which negotiated the pension plan payments for the end of the season series.

CatfiveCane
11-11-2007, 10:42 AM
I didn't realize Jason Evans was a government entity. Oh, wait, he's not. So leave the First Amendment out of this, because you have no right to "free speech" on a private site. Only the government can deprive you of this right.




What a joke! So if I own my own private company I can bypass your constitutional rights if you work for me? What a joke.

Sorry but Jason Evans or Jumbo or whoever say... we do not censorship, yet deletes and tells us what we can and can not write.... well that's censorship. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it not so.

So just admit it. This is a pro-Duke site.

Jumbo
11-11-2007, 10:45 AM
What a joke! So if I own my own private company I can bypass your constitutional rights if you work for me? What a joke.

Sorry but Jason Evans or Jumbo or whoever say... we do not censorship, yet deletes and tells us what we can and can not write.... well that's censorship. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it not so.

So just admit it. This is a pro-Duke site.

Guess you never actually studied the First Amendment. Here it is:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The key word there is "Congress." So, yeah, your business, for instance, can prevent you from exercising your right of free speech by, say, telling you that you'd be fired by disclosing information about a new product. That doesn't mean that all "constitutional rights" can be bypassed. But "free speech" is very clearly stated as applying only to government entities. You might think this is a "joke." But apparently you also don't understand the very foundation of U.S. law that most of us learned in fourth grade.

YmoBeThere
11-11-2007, 10:49 AM
So just admit it. This is a pro-Duke site.

For shame that a site known as Duke Basketball Report would be of all things pro-Duke? Or are you insinuating that the site and those running it are patsies for the athletic department or the administration of the university?

Either way, your comment(duly noted that I have quoted it absent all your other comments) doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me.

dukie8
11-11-2007, 11:07 AM
What a joke! So if I own my own private company I can bypass your constitutional rights if you work for me? What a joke.

Sorry but Jason Evans or Jumbo or whoever say... we do not censorship, yet deletes and tells us what we can and can not write.... well that's censorship. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it not so.

So just admit it. This is a pro-Duke site.

you guys need to just drop the 1st amendment malarky. it was thrown out there, correctly eviscerated and now you come back for more punishment???

rockymtn devil
11-11-2007, 11:13 AM
Speculation about who should be Duke's next head football coach will lead to posts being deleted and infraction points being given. Until the day Ted Roof is fired or quits at Duke, it is not appropriate for fasn to usher him out the door or actively seek replacements.

It hurts fan morale
It hurts team morale
It causes huge problems for recruiting
And it shows a lack of respect for a man who is trying his hardest to make Duke football into something respectible... trust me, Ted Roof cares a heck of a lot more about this than all of us on this board. I bet no one is more frustrated than he is.

With all due respect, you know what hurts fan morale even worse? Losing to Richmond.

You know what hurts recruiting even more? Knowing that this decade--and as recently as last year--Duke has had 3 winless seasons. And losing to Richmond. Ok, sorry, enough about last year.

I posted recently about giving Roof at least one more year to turn what progress has been shown into wins and I stand by that. Further, I feel that calls for the coach's firing are not constructive. With that said, speculation about potential replacements doesn't seem to be over the line in my eyes. Coach Roof--and everyone with any association to the Duke football program--knows that 1-win season after 1-win season won't cut it and that talk of a replacement is not mere speculation.

Finally, in terms of the "censorsing" of posts, DBR operators and deputized moderators have every right to shut down any thread/post they deem contrary to the spirit of the board. And, as someone who has acted as a DBR wallflower for years, it does appear that threads critical to Duke athletics are almost always the first to get locked (at least since the new boards were introduced). Now, I can't say that I monitor this board very closely, but my guess is the bulk of threads locked on the main board are ones critical about Duke athletics (very recently the thread about Coach K's greatness weakness was locked very quickly; even if it was justified, it ended the possibility of adding something new).

And this seems to be in-line with the editorial agenda of this website--which, as stated above, is fine and, at times, appreciated (I enjoy getting commentary on Duke football games that I never get to actually watch). But, as a perfect example of the overall tone of the content on this site, last week we never got a DBR review of Duke's loss to Clemson. Now, this might be for wholly unrelated reasons, but my first guess was because they didn't want to post a write-up of the loss. I noticed that as of this morning, there was no write-up of yesterday's loss to GT. Again, there are many potential reasons for this, and perhaps the post will be up today. They did, however, find time to write--more than a week before the game--a segment on the possibility of Duke beating Notre Dame. I would've liked to seen both a comment on Duke-Clemson and the early bit on Duke-ND.

JasonEvans
11-11-2007, 11:15 AM
Folks, including John Feinstein have commented that Alleva hired Roof over Bobby Ross, how could he do that?!

2 things--

I have a little bit of inside info on the coaching search back when we hired Roof and I can say that everyone was blown away by Roof's presentation at the time. He seemed to have a heck of a plan to get things done at Duke. There wasn't nearly the same feeling about Ross.

I might also add that Bobby Ross did not exactly turn Army into a world beater (they won 9 games in his 3 years) and he did not leave the program in any fabulous shape when he left. When Ross was being considered for the Duke job, he was almost 70 years old. A best-case scenario for him was that he was a very, very short-term fix. He only lasted 3 years at Army. Duke would have been back looking for a new head coach in no time at all.

There may have been better options than Ted Roof, but I think that Bobby Ross was not one of them.

-Jason "I vaguely recall hearing that Ross wasn't officially interviewed for the Duke job, though I may be wrong" Evans

Indoor66
11-11-2007, 11:22 AM
With all due respect, you know what hurts fan morale even worse? Losing to Richmond.

You know what hurts recruiting even more? Knowing that this decade--and as recently as last year--Duke has had 3 winless seasons. And losing to Richmond. Ok, sorry, enough about last year.

I posted recently about giving Roof at least one more year to turn what progress has been shown into wins and I stand by that. Further, I feel that calls for the coach's firing are not constructive. With that said, speculation about potential replacements doesn't seem to be over the line in my eyes. Coach Roof--and everyone with any association to the Duke football program--knows that 1-win season after 1-win season won't cut it and that talk of a replacement is not mere speculation.

Finally, in terms of the "censorsing" of posts, DBR operators and deputized moderators have every right to shut down any thread/post they deem contrary to the spirit of the board. And, as someone who has acted as a DBR wallflower for years, it does appear that threads critical to Duke athletics are almost always the first to get locked (at least since the new boards were introduced). Now, I can't say that I monitor this board very closely, but my guess is the bulk of threads locked on the main board are ones critical about Duke athletics (very recently the thread about Coach K's greatness weakness was locked very quickly; even if it was justified, it ended the possibility of adding something new).

And this seems to be in-line with the editorial agenda of this website--which, as stated above, is fine and, at times, appreciated (I enjoy getting commentary on Duke football games that I never get to actually watch). But, as a perfect example of the overall tone of the content on this site, last week we never got a DBR review of Duke's loss to Clemson. Now, this might be for wholly unrelated reasons, but my first guess was because they didn't want to post a write-up of the loss. I noticed that as of this morning, there was no write-up of yesterday's loss to GT. Again, there are many potential reasons for this, and perhaps the post will be up today. They did, however, find time to write--more than a week before the game--a segment on the possibility of Duke beating Notre Dame. I would've liked to seen both a comment on Duke-Clemson and the early bit on Duke-ND.

I understand your frustration but this is, primarily, a basketball site. I wish we had more coverage of Women's BB. Football is of little interest to me. I prefer soccer, golf and tennis to FB. This site was set up for BB and keeps its focus. I was in favor of the LAX board because of it's immediate impact on all things Duke. I also was an early proponent of closing down that board after Atty General Cooper's ending of that case. At that point the Duke impact, on a national level, essentially, terminated. The obsession by some about vilification of Nifong and the Duke Admin did not and does not particularly interest me - especially with the onset of BB. If there is to be extensive football coverage there should be a Football board, assuming there was sufficient interest to support one.

Just my $1.49 (inflation you know :) )

dukie8
11-11-2007, 11:36 AM
With all due respect, you know what hurts fan morale even worse? Losing to Richmond.

You know what hurts recruiting even more? Knowing that this decade--and as recently as last year--Duke has had 3 winless seasons. And losing to Richmond. Ok, sorry, enough about last year.

I posted recently about giving Roof at least one more year to turn what progress has been shown into wins and I stand by that. Further, I feel that calls for the coach's firing are not constructive. With that said, speculation about potential replacements doesn't seem to be over the line in my eyes. Coach Roof--and everyone with any association to the Duke football program--knows that 1-win season after 1-win season won't cut it and that talk of a replacement is not mere speculation.

Finally, in terms of the "censorsing" of posts, DBR operators and deputized moderators have every right to shut down any thread/post they deem contrary to the spirit of the board. And, as someone who has acted as a DBR wallflower for years, it does appear that threads critical to Duke athletics are almost always the first to get locked (at least since the new boards were introduced). Now, I can't say that I monitor this board very closely, but my guess is the bulk of threads locked on the main board are ones critical about Duke athletics (very recently the thread about Coach K's greatness weakness was locked very quickly; even if it was justified, it ended the possibility of adding something new).

And this seems to be in-line with the editorial agenda of this website--which, as stated above, is fine and, at times, appreciated (I enjoy getting commentary on Duke football games that I never get to actually watch). But, as a perfect example of the overall tone of the content on this site, last week we never got a DBR review of Duke's loss to Clemson. Now, this might be for wholly unrelated reasons, but my first guess was because they didn't want to post a write-up of the loss. I noticed that as of this morning, there was no write-up of yesterday's loss to GT. Again, there are many potential reasons for this, and perhaps the post will be up today. They did, however, find time to write--more than a week before the game--a segment on the possibility of Duke beating Notre Dame. I would've liked to seen both a comment on Duke-Clemson and the early bit on Duke-ND.

why do you come to a basketball site looking for football editorial commentary?

CatfiveCane
11-11-2007, 11:52 AM
Guess you never actually studied the First Amendment. Here it is:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The key word there is "Congress." So, yeah, your business, for instance, can prevent you from exercising your right of free speech by, say, telling you that you'd be fired by disclosing information about a new product. That doesn't mean that all "constitutional rights" can be bypassed. But "free speech" is very clearly stated as applying only to government entities. You might think this is a "joke." But apparently you also don't understand the very foundation of U.S. law that most of us learned in fourth grade.

(redacted) Free speech only implies to government entities???
Do you not even understand what you quoted?

Personally I don't care if you censor or not. But just admit it.

dukie8
11-11-2007, 11:53 AM
(redacted)Free speech only implies to government entities???
Do you not even understand what you quoted?

my god...

Devilsfan
11-11-2007, 12:07 PM
I wish we could all get behind Duke the next two weeks, see how we preform and go from there. It would be great to see some color other than a sissy shade of blue show up in the Keenan seats in two weeks.

JasonEvans
11-11-2007, 12:07 PM
Personally I don't care if you censor or not. But just admit it.

We censor posts that fail to follow the guidelines of the board. We have never said otherwise.

-Jason

CatfiveCane
11-11-2007, 12:10 PM
We censor posts that fail to follow the guidelines of the board. We have never said otherwise.

-Jason

guidelines say we can't discuss Roof's job status? Plus I don't think you should have edited my (redacted) question to Jumbo. My goodness... the whole point of freedom of speech is so government can't shut us up! Where does he live? Cuba???

mapei
11-11-2007, 12:15 PM
The poster is mistaken if s/he thinks that the first amendment applies to DBR in a legal sense.

That takes nothing away from the broader point s/he was trying to make that governance of speech by the site owners can feel repressive when posters are used to posting more freely.

Personally, I wouldn't draw the line at whether someone thinks a coach should be fired or has an idea about a good replacement. And I think a criticism that called for K's firing in 1983 would have been proven wrong by history, but I think a board that tolerated it (before we knew what history would bring) would be a better board. I would draw the line at posts, whether about Roof, UNC or anything else, that were crude or inappropriately personal.

That's not where these guys draw the line. I disagree, but I can live with it.

Turtleboy
11-11-2007, 12:24 PM
guidelines say we can't discuss Roof's job status? Plus I don't think you should have edited my "Are you an idiot?" question to Jumbo. My goodness... the whole point of freedom of speech is so government can't shut us up! Where does he live? Cuba???Which government do you believe is shutting you up?

Frankly, I think the moderation around here is ham handed to the extreme, and if anyone really believes that a message board has any affect at all on what the Duke administration does or how Coach Roof feels they are seriously fooling themselves, but this is in no way a First Amendment issue. As the above poster said, their board, their rules.

Cicero
11-11-2007, 12:32 PM
My goodness... the whole point of freedom of speech is so government can't shut us up! Where does he live? Cuba???

Jason Evans is not the government. Jumbo is not the government. Moreover, DBR is not the government. As a private entity, DBR has the right to regulate, censor, disallow, and otherwise control speech on the private bulletin boards that it owns and pays for in whatever ways it deems fit.

You have several options: (1) post within those guidelines on this site; (2) post outside those guidelines and have your posts redacted/posting privileges suspended/revoked; or (3) post or express your thoughts otherwise (on another bulletin board, on your own website, in the newspaper, in the public square, etc.).

As for me, I plan to continue enjoying DBR for what it is.

M. Tullius

kexman
11-11-2007, 12:42 PM
This is the most interest I've seen about Duke football in several months and basketball season has already started:)

DU82
11-11-2007, 01:02 PM
goes beyond normative, and assesses, analyzes game day performance like (presumably) will members of the athletics advisory council who were also former Duke footballers.


A quick note. I'm not a former Duke football player. My football playing was limited to the IM fields (and an occasional mud game out where the astroturf fields now are next to the soccer field.) My time on the Wallace Wade field was limited to before the game, and during halftime.

formerdukeathlete
11-11-2007, 03:35 PM
2 things--

I have a little bit of inside info on the coaching search back when we hired Roof and I can say that everyone was blown away by Roof's presentation at the time. He seemed to have a heck of a plan to get things done at Duke. There wasn't nearly the same feeling about Ross.

I might also add that Bobby Ross did not exactly turn Army into a world beater (they won 9 games in his 3 years) and he did not leave the program in any fabulous shape when he left. When Ross was being considered for the Duke job, he was almost 70 years old. A best-case scenario for him was that he was a very, very short-term fix. He only lasted 3 years at Army. Duke would have been back looking for a new head coach in no time at all.

There may have been better options than Ted Roof, but I think that Bobby Ross was not one of them.

-Jason "I vaguely recall hearing that Ross wasn't officially interviewed for the Duke job, though I may be wrong" Evans

My info. re Ross is partly a function of J.Feinstein's periodic references to that Ross wanted the job but did not get serious consideration. From other data points I understand that he wanted the Duke job, would take the job, communicated this through his agent, but had requirements re the University's commitment to Football at the time.

Just to point out that you may recall that during the "franks let go, who do we hire phase, Roof is the interim coach phase," I supported hiring Roof. I posted in this regard and e-mailed Alleva at the time on several occassions re this, why I supported Roof.

FRank D of the Herald Sun liked Biddle of Colgate. I thought this was an interesting option at the time.

I think the key point is, at the time Roof was named head, not interim, head coach, we had not made a commitment to make the position interesting enough to say a Paul Johnson. but, we may be on the verge of giving whichever coach what he needs. Let's hope so.

feldspar
11-11-2007, 05:17 PM
So, if I understand correctly, it's okay for us to actively criticize Roof and call for his ouster after the season, because it won't have as much of an impact on the team?

Well, I call poppycock. First off, these are big boys. College kids. Their lives will go on after football. They will be okay. Many of them are going to go on to jobs and lives where they and their supervisors are criticized and (shocker!) even fired mid-production. They don't need to be coddled. They don't need to be patronized.

Second of all, you could make the argument that any criticism of the football program is bad at any time of the year. Recruiting is going on non-stop and player development is going on non-stop. It's ludicrous to think that Ted Roof is in some protective bubble during the season and then once the season is over he magically appears outside that bubble to take his yearly beating.

And last of all, let's not kid ourselves into thinking that we, the collective masses at DBR, really have that much of an impact of what happens around Duke athletics. We just don't. Coaches and most players are smart enough to know that we're just a bunch of clueless fans blowing off steam and blowing hot air. Let's not pat ourselves on the back too much by assuming that a thread or two is going to negatively impact Duke football. I mean, come on.

JasonEvans
11-11-2007, 05:29 PM
Did it ever occur to any of you that the reason we ask for such a high level of discourse and decorum is so players, their families, and people in the athletic department would feel comfortable about coming here and reading what is written and -- perhaps -- even writing something themselves?

Wake me the next time Shane posts on TDD or when Jason Williams' mother posts on IC. The list of people who are very close to the Duke program who post to this board is getting really long. Heck, I happen to know that folks here would be surprised at the identity of several fairly well-known posters.

And one more thing... I am gonna be a jerk and say this...

THE RULES ARE NOT UP FOR DEBATE.

The folks who own and run this site have said what standards they would like for the board. End of discussion. If you want to make suggestions, feel free to do so via private message to one of the moderators.

I'll tell you all that the mods are constantly discussing our own actions and we are in a debate about the very policy that has inspired so much conversation here. Perhaps the policy will change. I am glad so many people have made their views known in this thread and I think it is useful. But, now that feldspar is weighing in ;) , I think the debate has run its course. Unless you have something really new to add to the discussion, can we put this one to bed for the time being?

--Jason "sorry, been a long day" Evans

feldspar
11-11-2007, 05:32 PM
THE RULES ARE NOT UP FOR DEBATE.

Would you mind giving us a list of what is up for debate? Hard to keep track lately.

Turtleboy
11-11-2007, 05:33 PM
The folks who own and run this site have said what standards they would like for the board. End of discussion. If you want to make suggestions, feel free to do so via private message to one of the moderators.
For what it's worth, I have PM'd a moderator on four occasions. I got one response. it is not a very satisfactory method of communication.

feldspar
11-11-2007, 05:38 PM
Can we still criticize Roof as long as we use cute smilies, Jason?

:) :D ;) :(

Jumbo
11-11-2007, 05:58 PM
For what it's worth, I have PM'd a moderator on four occasions. I got one response. it is not a very satisfactory method of communication.

I can't speak for the other mods, but I always respond to PMs. Some of the mods are less involved than others -- I recommend ccing multiple mods to make sure you get a response.

Also, you all need to remember this: All of the mods are long-time posters. We're doing this as a favor to the owners of this site. Policy changes originate at the top, and we all need to respect the people who own this place.

CathyCA
11-11-2007, 06:24 PM
-Jason "if this board had been around in 1983, I am sure there would have been a poster with FireMike as his posting name" Evans



Personally, I wouldn't draw the line at whether someone thinks a coach should be fired or has an idea about a good replacement. And I think a criticism that called for K's firing in 1983 would have been proven wrong by history, but I think a board that tolerated it (before we knew what history would bring) would be a better board. I would draw the line at posts, whether about Roof, UNC or anything else, that were crude or inappropriately personal.



Since you guys mentioned 1983 and Coach K, I can elaborate because I was there.

I worked for Coach K in the basketball office as an office assistant. (It was the most incredible work/study job on campus.) You would not believe the volume of mail that came addressed to Coach K telling him how to coach (everyone suggested zone defense) or telling him where to go and suggesting who his successor might be. This mail came not from outsiders, but from Duke fans, including season ticket holders and Iron Dukes. Probably some of the mail came from current DBR posters.

The office staff always opened the mail and we directed it to the appropriate coaches--recruiting, tape exchange, ticket requests, autograph requests (rare in those days) and fan mail. I asked Coach K what he wanted me to do with the uncomplimentary letters which blasted him. I thought that they might belong in the garbage can because they contained hurtful comments. I didn't want Coach K to see what the Duke fans were writing. I wanted to protect his feelings. Coach K asked to see each one of them. And, he replied--quite respectfully--to every uncomplimentary letter.

Coach K tolerated the criticism. He rose above it. I think that Coach Roof is also capable of tolerating the criticism and rising above it, too.

feldspar
11-11-2007, 06:28 PM
Since you guys mentioned 1983 and Coach K, I can elaborate because I was there.

I worked for Coach K in the basketball office as an office assistant. (It was the most incredible work/study job on campus.) You would not believe the volume of mail that came addressed to Coach K telling him how to coach (everyone suggested zone defense) or telling him where to go and suggesting who his successor might be. This mail came not from outsiders, but from Duke fans, including season ticket holders and Iron Dukes. Probably some of the mail came from current DBR posters.

The office staff always opened the mail and we directed it to the appropriate coaches--recruiting, tape exchange, ticket requests, autograph requests (rare in those days) and fan mail. I asked Coach K what he wanted me to do with the uncomplimentary letters which blasted him. I thought that they might belong in the garbage can because they contained hurtful comments. I didn't want Coach K to see what the Duke fans were writing. I wanted to protect his feelings. Coach K asked to see each one of them. And, he replied--quite respectfully--to every uncomplimentary letter.

Coach K tolerated the criticism. He rose above it. I think that Coach Roof is also capable of tolerating the criticism and rising above it, too.


Post of the week.

-jk
11-11-2007, 06:51 PM
I think that Coach Roof is also capable of tolerating the criticism and rising above it, too.

I'm sure he is. And we're doing absolutely nothing to stop anyone from sending Coach Roof a personal note. There is even a link on goduke.com from which you can send him an email.

However, this is a far more public forum than a personal note.

All we ask is that posters give the football program two more weeks to finish the season before trying to bury Roof.

-jk

Stray Gator
11-11-2007, 06:51 PM
I can't speak for the other mods, but I always respond to PMs. Some of the mods are less involved than others -- I recommend ccing multiple mods to make sure you get a response.

Also, you all need to remember this: All of the mods are long-time posters. We're doing this as a favor to the owners of this site. Policy changes originate at the top, and we all need to respect the people who own this place.

FWIW, I have received one private message as a moderator--a request to reconsider an infraction that another moderator had assessed. I referred it to the whole group of moderators, and there was agreement that the post did not warrant being cited for an infraction, and that the penalty should be lifted. The poster was advised, and expressed appreciation for the prompt response.

Don't consider this an invitation to plea bargain through me or any other moderator. As Jumbo noted, the moderators here are volunteers, who do this as a favor to the site owners, Julio and Boswell, because we share their desire to preserve this forum as one in which Duke fans and other college basketball fans can engage in friendly, civil discussions--with the specific objective of maintaining a higher level of discourse than is typical of many online message boards.

The rules here are what the site owners say they are. They've published some general guidelines, which should be comprehensible by everyone who posts here and applicable to most situations. But because new issues arise, and because there are those who insist on pushing the envelope even with respect to the long-established guidelines, the site owners find it necessary on occasion to implement additional limitations--new rules, if you prefer--just to ensure that the quality of the forum and the tenor of the discourse is not sucked down to levels that they feel are unacceptable.

Whether you like it or not, the site owners have the absolute, unfettered right to impose whatever rules or restrictions they wish on the use of these boards--and to introduce new rules when they deem it necessary or appropriate. There is no First Amendment right or any other legal right that trumps the site owners' property rights in this regard. Nor is there any "estoppel" principle that precludes them from changing their position on the boundaries of tolerance. We are guests here, and the owners have the right to decide what behavior they will tolerate from those who wish to visit and use this site--just like you have the right to decide what conduct you will allow in your house.

Moreover, the site owners have no obligation to explain or justify their rules to any of us--though I cannot recall any rule they've implemented that wasn't essentially self-explanatory, at least for anyone who has been around here for a while. So please stop the complaining. If you don't like it here, you're free to find another board that is more suitable for the kind of dialogue or personal expression you prefer. If you do like it here, then just play by the rules.

devildeac
11-11-2007, 07:16 PM
Since you guys mentioned 1983 and Coach K, I can elaborate because I was there.

I worked for Coach K in the basketball office as an office assistant. (It was the most incredible work/study job on campus.) You would not believe the volume of mail that came addressed to Coach K telling him how to coach (everyone suggested zone defense) or telling him where to go and suggesting who his successor might be. This mail came not from outsiders, but from Duke fans, including season ticket holders and Iron Dukes. Probably some of the mail came from current DBR posters.

The office staff always opened the mail and we directed it to the appropriate coaches--recruiting, tape exchange, ticket requests, autograph requests (rare in those days) and fan mail. I asked Coach K what he wanted me to do with the uncomplimentary letters which blasted him. I thought that they might belong in the garbage can because they contained hurtful comments. I didn't want Coach K to see what the Duke fans were writing. I wanted to protect his feelings. Coach K asked to see each one of them. And, he replied--quite respectfully--to every uncomplimentary letter.

Coach K tolerated the criticism. He rose above it. I think that Coach Roof is also capable of tolerating the criticism and rising above it, too.


THANKS for sharing that info/insight. A very interesting perspective/observation. Obviously Coach K knew of the criticism as, I think the story goes, that he walked(or was called) into the AD's office about his contract with 2 or 3 years remaining and offered to resign. The AD(IIRC) tore up/discarded the contract and gave him a 2 or 3 year extension because of his overwhelming faith/belief in him that he was THE right coach for the program. And, as the cliche goes, the rest is history.

dukie8
11-11-2007, 08:00 PM
THANKS for sharing that info/insight. A very interesting perspective/observation. Obviously Coach K knew of the criticism as, I think the story goes, that he walked(or was called) into the AD's office about his contract with 2 or 3 years remaining and offered to resign. The AD(IIRC) tore up/discarded the contract and gave him a 2 or 3 year extension because of his overwhelming faith/belief in him that he was THE right coach for the program. And, as the cliche goes, the rest is history.

for every example of a team sticking with a coach in tough times and then eventually being very happy about it, there are A LOT more examples of teams sticking with bad coaches who never right the ship with many more seasons gone to waste. in the most extreme examples, the new coaches make a tremendous difference almost immediately. do you think unc would have nc #3 if it had stuck with doherty? what about the yankees winning 4 world series titles from 1996-2000 if they had stuck with showalter?

Bob Green
11-11-2007, 08:49 PM
.....do you think unc would have nc #3 if it had stuck with doherty?

Actually, it is NC #4: 1957, 1982, 1993, & 2005. Regardless, your point is valid.

SilkyJ
11-11-2007, 09:02 PM
We censor posts that fail to follow the guidelines of the board. We have never said otherwise.

-Jason

I agree with 98% of the mods decisions and 99% of what Jason has to say, but I don't agree with this one. I don't think its a horrible thing to say "we've given Ted Roof his chance and while he has made improvements with the program, I believe it is time to move on." Personally, I want to give him 1 more season...but i'm beating a dead mammal either way



Policy changes originate at the top, and we all need to respect the people who own this place.

Are you saying that this new "policy" is being enforced b/c Julio and Boswell asked you to? If so, then that's 100% fine by me. Its their site so whatever they want to do is cool with me...not that anybody gives a crap whats cool with me....

devildeac
11-11-2007, 09:04 PM
for every example of a team sticking with a coach in tough times and then eventually being very happy about it, there are A LOT more examples of teams sticking with bad coaches who never right the ship with many more seasons gone to waste. in the most extreme examples, the new coaches make a tremendous difference almost immediately. do you think unc would have nc #3 if it had stuck with doherty? what about the yankees winning 4 world series titles from 1996-2000 if they had stuck with showalter?

Please note, not once in my reply did I mention TR. Nor, was anything implied. I simply thanked CathyCA for sharing her 'insider' story.
To answer your ??: 1. no 2. unlikely, though I am not much of a Yankee fan(sorry, OZZIE).

CathyCA
11-11-2007, 09:55 PM
I'm sure he is. And we're doing absolutely nothing to stop anyone from sending Coach Roof a personal note. There is even a link on goduke.com from which you can send him an email.

However, this is a far more public forum than a personal note.

All we ask is that posters give the football program two more weeks to finish the season before trying to bury Roof.

-jk

Don't think for one minute that those letters back in 1983 were sent privately and only to Coach K. They were cc'd to the Durham Morning Herald, the News & Observer, to the Board of Trustees, to the Iron Dukes, and to President Sanford and to Mr. Butters.

Even before the advent of internet messageboards, fans had ways of publicly expressing their displeasure with the head coach.

Being a head coach entails being a public figure. I think that most coaches understand that they must endure the public criticism that comes with the territory. How a coach handles the public criticism is a measure of his grace and class. And that was simply the point of my previous post.

I will now go back to lurking.

Grey Devil
11-11-2007, 10:05 PM
I will now go back to lurking.

Please don't "go back to lurking." You can bring tremendous insights to discussions here!

Grey Devil
(who works and lives not far from you -- in Cupertino)

feldspar
11-11-2007, 10:06 PM
Please don't "go back to lurking." You can bring tremendous insights to discussions here!

Grey Devil
(who works and lives not far from you -- in Cupertino)

Hear, hear. Stick around, please.

Trust me, just because you and the mods don't see eye to eye is no reason not to be a regular contributor. I appreciate your posts.

Capn Poptart
11-12-2007, 07:13 AM
It would be inappropriate to speculate that the current coach might be replaced by (redacted). Likewise, we would not want to suggest that (redacted) or (redacted) might be a candidate for the position. And it would be wrong, most wrong, to mention (redacted). ;)

devildeac
11-12-2007, 08:06 AM
Don't think for one minute that those letters back in 1983 were sent privately and only to Coach K. They were cc'd to the Durham Morning Herald, the News & Observer, to the Board of Trustees, to the Iron Dukes, and to President Sanford and to Mr. Butters.

Even before the advent of internet messageboards, fans had ways of publicly expressing their displeasure with the head coach.

Being a head coach entails being a public figure. I think that most coaches understand that they must endure the public criticism that comes with the territory. How a coach handles the public criticism is a measure of his grace and class. And that was simply the point of my previous post.

I will now go back to lurking.

Please don't go back to lurking. I did it for several years. Now, lurking AND posting is much more fun and lively. You sound like you have a lot of insight and stories you might be able to contribute here.

throatybeard
11-12-2007, 09:24 AM
See, this is what happens when I go out of town for 36 hours... :D

watzone
11-12-2007, 10:23 AM
See, this is what happens when I go out of town for 36 hours... :D


If that's the case then don't leave for an hour;) My lack of comments will have to do on this one.

Bluedawg
11-12-2007, 11:29 AM
Speculation about who should be Duke's next head football coach will lead to posts being deleted and infraction points being given. Until the day Ted Roof is fired or quits at Duke, it is not appropriate for fasn to usher him out the door or actively seek replacements.

It hurts fan morale
It hurts team morale
It causes huge problems for recruiting
And it shows a lack of respect for a man who is trying his hardest to make Duke football into something respectible... trust me, Ted Roof cares a heck of a lot more about this than all of us on this board. I bet no one is more frustrated than he is.

Feel free to discuss football in a constructive way, but demanding a new coach and discussing replacements for someone who is still currently the Duke coach is not constructive.

--Jason "I'm frustrated too, but I still support Roof and the kids who go to war with him every Satruday" Evans

You know I’ve been the biggest TR supporter on this board, and I still feel he can turn the program around. However, I do have a couple of problems with this position.

1 - I can't see what anything put on this board will do to "team morale" that the team playing before 25,000 empty seats doesn't. And in regards to "fan morale" again let me emphasize 25,000 empty seats.

2 - If the administration comes on the board to get a feeling of where the student/fans are in their opinions and feelings about various programs how will this "toned down" philosophy help them. If they want to gage where the student/alumni/fans are should they not be able to expect to get an honest impression from DBR?

I do not want to see an all out assault on anybody. I’d like to see TR finish what he has started. I can see the frustration on him every game.

Duke has a history of not giving coaches a chance with an average stay of 4.5 years. I hope they give TR a chance.

johnb
11-12-2007, 11:46 AM
A very small bit of "censorship" raises the level of discourse dramatically.

Most people who write to say "Fire Roof!" offer no new insights. They are venting about our record. Even people who were at the games are mainly writing in to express their frustration, though they can sometimes list a few of the things that went wrong. And even the negative posts that have substantive content offer little that's new.

The players and coaches didn't come to Duke to lose so many games, but they also didn't come to Duke so that they could read negative stuff about themselves on a school fan's site. It's not that they're not adults (though I'd peg college students as late adolescents not adults), but that we should aim to belong to a civilized society whose discourse (internet or otherwise) tries not to fall to some lowest-common-denominator piling-on.

One measure of what should go on a post: would you sit down with the pertinent person and say the same thing one-on-one?

dkbaseball
11-12-2007, 11:58 AM
Please don't go back to lurking. I did it for several years. Now, lurking AND posting is much more fun and lively. You sound like you have a lot of insight and stories you might be able to contribute here.

Agreed. An example: A year ago I asked what team I saw K coaching in Cameron in Aug., '83. Cathy was the one who was able to tell me that it was the Duke squad getting ready for a trip to Europe.

throatybeard
11-12-2007, 12:09 PM
2 - If the administration comes on the board to get a feeling of where the student/fans are in their opinions and feelings about various programs how will this "toned down" philosophy help them. If they want to gage where the student/alumni/fans are should they not be able to expect to get an honest impression from DBR?

You're never going to get a really accurate picture from a message board--selection bias. People who are upset screech more.

dkbaseball
11-12-2007, 12:09 PM
The key word there is "Congress." So, yeah, your business, for instance, can prevent you from exercising your right of free speech by, say, telling you that you'd be fired by disclosing information about a new product. That doesn't mean that all "constitutional rights" can be bypassed. But "free speech" is very clearly stated as applying only to government entities. You might think this is a "joke." But apparently you also don't understand the very foundation of U.S. law that most of us learned in fourth grade.

According to my con law prof, the only constitutional cause of action against a private party one might have would be under the 13th Amendment, which outlaws slavery. Otherwise, you have to find the cause of action against private parties somewhere besides the Constitution. So yes, your private employer can feel free to ignore all your constitutional rights, so long as he doesn't enslave you, but you may have statutory remedies.

Now I personally subscribe to a "neoliberal" interpretation of the First Amendment, which holds that most violations of its spirit these days are made by private parties -- e.g., advertisers effectively controlling the content of the major media -- and FA law must be modified to take account of that fact. But this is a PPB subject.

As for those who want to hold aloft the FA banner against DBR and other private parties, the safe phrase is "violates the spirit of the First Amendment."

CameronBlue
11-12-2007, 01:03 PM
Most people who write to say "Fire Roof!" offer no new insights. They are venting about our record. Even people who were at the games are mainly writing in to express their frustration, though they can sometimes list a few of the things that went wrong. And even the negative posts that have substantive content offer little that's new.



I think the level of criticism goes further than that venturing into disingenious and provocative posts that border upon outright lies with no intent other than to wratchet up pressure and inflame public opinion. Posts that I've read over the last 2 weeks on TDD started with something like, "I have it on good authority that...", "Expect an announcement before the Notre Dame game..." or "it's a forgone conclusion that...". I too have my sources "close to the program" and nothing I've heard indicates a change is imminent. I think it's a wise policy to prophylactically "censor" posters who lack true influence and use the anonymity of a BBS alias to muckrake.

Cameron "did I spell prophylactically correctly? Being Catholic, I don't use that word all that often" Blue

OldPhiKap
11-12-2007, 01:18 PM
Keep Roof.

Fire Alleva.

This is a private site and there is no First Amendment application. Sorry.

Rythm method not very reliable.

Go Devils.

Go to Hell Carolina.

Notre Dame is going down.

(Have I covered everything?)

throatybeard
11-12-2007, 01:18 PM
Hear, hear. Stick around, please.

Trust me, just because you and the mods don't see eye to eye is no reason not to be a regular contributor. I appreciate your posts.

Just FTR, Grey Devil has had no conflicts with the moderation team. Nor has CathyCA.

dkbaseball
11-12-2007, 01:28 PM
Cameron "did I spell prophylactically correctly? Being Catholic, I don't use that word all that often" Blue

Yes, but not disingenuous and ratchet. Sorry, I'm not usually on the spelling cop beat, but since you did ask.

I would like to take this opportunity to announce my retirement from DBR as Johnny Dawkins.

-jk
11-12-2007, 01:29 PM
Cameron "did I spell prophylactically correctly? Being Catholic, I don't use that word all that often" Blue

Well, the spell checker in Firefox wants to replace it with "prophylactic ally", which certainly paints a picture. http://empegbbs.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/blush.gif

-jk

jlear
11-12-2007, 01:38 PM
The players and coaches didn't come to Duke to lose so many games, but they also didn't come to Duke so that they could read negative stuff about themselves on a school fan's site.

One measure of what should go on a post: would you sit down with the pertinent person and say the same thing one-on-one?

On the Field Results
2007 – 1 – 9 – beat Northwestern – 2 losses were within 10 pts
2006 – 0 – 12 – 2 losses were within 10pts
2005 – 1 – 10 – beat VA Military – 2 losses were within 10 pts
2004 – 2 – 9 – beat Citadel & Clemson – 2 losses were within 10 pts
2003 – 4 – 8 – beat Western Carolina – Rice – GT – UNC – 1 loss within 10 pts
2002 – 2 – 10 – beat ECU – Navy – 5 loses within 10 pts

Off the field results – More grads than everyone most every year!

Coaches are paid much better than most on this board. The AD is paid to do his job. Scholarship players are working their butts off and they get a $200K+ education for their efforts ($50K a year is good comp for working out and playing football in my opinion). They are all compensated, in my opinion, to play competitive football.

The comments on this board have been very civil and mild considering the on-field results. That said I have no problem waiting until the season is over to discuss changes that cannot be made for this week’s game against ND.

Fans use their time and money to go to games to support the team, watch entertaining games and experience victories. Boosters donate their money to help the program get and stay competitive. In my mind, to blame the fans for the on the field results of the football team simply does not hold water. Football still gets more fans to each game than every other sport on campus. Does the band typically come out for all of the Field Hockey games?

Friends and families of players and die-hard fans are all that are going to show up if you have no reasonable chance of being success in your job. With no reasonable chance to field a competitive team it is beyond rude to ask people to come watch a mockery of the game. Add to that the fact that when TV does not dictate the starting time of football games Coach Roof chooses to have the game as early as possible because he doesn’t want his coaches or players sitting around all day. If Coach cared about the fans he would know that being able to tailgate before the game makes the game an event. An event that can be fun even when your team losses 85% of their games.

I am at most home games and I honestly don’t know why I have invested so much time and money in an investment that does not pay any dividends! Maybe we are more deserving basketball fans because we go to the football games?

You want fans in the stand? You want more in donations for better facilities? Then WIN!

It pays to be a winner.

Thank goodness we have a basketball game tonight; thinking about football makes me sad!

I would be happy to sit down and say this to anyone and players and coaches need to go and prepare for ND and UNC not read this board.

JasonEvans
11-12-2007, 01:57 PM
The comments on this board have been very civil and mild considering the on-field results.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe the comments seem civil and mild because the really nasty stuff gets culled by the mods before you get a chance to see it?

--Jason "just a thought" Evans

Bluedawg
11-12-2007, 01:59 PM
You're never going to get a really accurate picture from a message board--selection bias. People who are upset screech more.

You can if you ignore the extremes. johnb put it real well:


Most people who write to say "Fire Roof!" offer no new insights.

And on the other end, peopel with rose colored glasses do the same.

budwom
11-12-2007, 02:02 PM
Completely aside from the censoring issue (which has been appropriately beaten to death) I simply wonder how many people who have posted in this thread have had an opportunity to watch more than a few Duke football games this year. A number of posts lead me to believe that some people haven't much, if any, Duke football this year.

Bluedawg
11-12-2007, 02:06 PM
Completely aside from the censoring issue (which has been appropriately beaten to death) I simply wonder how many people who have posted in this thread have had an opportunity to watch more than a few Duke football games this year. A number of posts lead me to believe that some people haven't much, if any, Duke football this year.

i was at every home game.

CameronBlue
11-12-2007, 02:08 PM
That anyone at all posts in a Duke FB thread, particularly on a Duke basketball website probably says something about the poster's passion for Duke football and/or firsthand experience watching the team. It's likely most of the casual observers have long since jumped off the band wagon. You're intimating that the product on the field is substandard. We know.

jlear
11-12-2007, 02:10 PM
Did it ever occur to you that maybe the comments seem civil and mild because the really nasty stuff gets culled by the mods before you get a chance to see it?

--Jason "just a thought" Evans

Good Point...and Thank you to all the mods for your time invested making this this only board I can stomach.

budwom
11-12-2007, 02:16 PM
That anyone at all posts in a Duke FB thread, particularly on a Duke basketball website probably says something about the poster's passion for Duke football and/or firsthand experience watching the team. It's likely most of the casual observers have long since jumped off the band wagon. You're intimating that the product on the field is substandard. We know.

And sometimes you don't know what you think you know.

CameronBlue
11-12-2007, 02:19 PM
care to enlighten the board (or me) what subtleties you think I'm missing?

budwom
11-12-2007, 02:30 PM
care to enlighten the board (or me) what subtleties you think I'm missing?

Yes. I quite honestly wanted (and want) to know how many people have watched Duke play this year. Yet somehow you happen to "know" that I'm intimating that the product on the field isn't very good.

Sometimes, as they say, a duck is just a duck.

My own views on the football team, for what it's worth, are evidently quite different from your assumption thereof.

CathyCA
11-12-2007, 02:36 PM
Completely aside from the censoring issue (which has been appropriately beaten to death) I simply wonder how many people who have posted in this thread have had an opportunity to watch more than a few Duke football games this year. A number of posts lead me to believe that some people haven't much, if any, Duke football this year.

Okay. Guilty. I haven't attended any Duke football games this year, and none of their televised games (were there any?) have made it to our cable system. I have attended several Stanford football games this season. Not all Duke football fans are local.

CameronBlue
11-12-2007, 02:39 PM
Yes. I quite honestly wanted (and want) to know how many people have watched Duke play this year. Yet somehow you happen to "know" that I'm intimating that the product on the field isn't very good.

Sometimes, as they say, a duck is just a duck.

My own views on the football team, for what it's worth, are evidently quite different from your assumption thereof.

Okay, the quack of your voice, doesn't convey all that well on a message board. :>). I'll answer for myself: I attend every game for which I'm in town and I live locally, about 15 miles away and, of course, out of radio coverage range. This year that was 4 games. I'm not a masochist so I'm generally home by the 4th quarter. Not as devoted as others here I'm sure.

budwom
11-12-2007, 02:48 PM
Okay. Guilty. I haven't attended any Duke football games this year, and none of their televised games (were there any?) have made it to our cable system. I have attended several Stanford football games this season. Not all Duke football fans are local.

Cathy, the question wasn't meant to be an accusation. Most Duke grads aren't in a position to see many games. I happen to think that the whole Duke football story is pretty fascinating, and I have a slew of semi-contradictory opinions about what should and shouldn't be done about its current condition. (Which is why I bristled a tad at CameronBlue's comment). It's the sort of issue that would make a good case study for the Harvard Business Review....I do think that attending some of the games is something of an eye opener in many respects, not only because you get a good look at the team and coaches, but also because you can get a good sense of how much support the university is giving the program.

Attending a game at Duke is quite unlike attending one at almost any other school which is in a major conference.

Stray Gator
11-12-2007, 02:55 PM
Okay. Guilty. I haven't attended any Duke football games this year, and none of their televised games (were there any?) have made it to our cable system. I have attended several Stanford football games this season. Not all Duke football fans are local.

Just FWIW, my good friend BudWom resides more than 700 miles from Durham, but makes the trip to attend most home games (as well as some away games)...and has done so for as long as I've known him. I don't know anyone (other than a few former players, perhaps) who is more knowledgeable about college football and ACC football in particular, yet has remained such a devoted Duke football fan through the years.

budwom
11-12-2007, 02:58 PM
Okay, the quack of your voice, doesn't convey all that well on a message board. :>). I'll answer for myself: I attend every game for which I'm in town and I live locally, about 15 miles away and, of course, out of radio coverage range. This year that was 4 games. I'm not a masochist so I'm generally home by the 4th quarter. Not as devoted as others here I'm sure.

I'll confess that I waddled out of the Clemson game at halftime, something I had never done before. Generally I don't leave more than about five minutes before the end of the game. So I, too, have my limits, CameronBlue..

Since you evidently took my initial comment the wrong way, or I articulated it rather poorly, what I was getting at is that attending a Duke game is pretty unique. Aside from the game on the field, Duke's approach to things like parking, tailgating, concessions, bathrooms can give you a much bigger picture of the problem....I really do find it fascinating.

yancem
11-12-2007, 03:20 PM
Cameron "did I spell prophylactically correctly? Being Catholic, I don't use that word all that often" Blue

See, now that is just damn funny!!!!

Fish80
11-12-2007, 03:28 PM
And sometimes you don't know what you think you know.

"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know. " - Donald Rumsfeld

budwom
11-12-2007, 03:36 PM
"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know. " - Donald Rumsfeld

Precisely! Don knows all about bogus "known" knowns....

OZZIE4DUKE
11-12-2007, 03:36 PM
Just FWIW, my good friend BudWom resides more than 700 miles from Durham, but makes the trip to attend most home games (as well as some away games)...and has done so for as long as I've known him. I don't know anyone (other than a few former players, perhaps) who is more knowledgeable about college football and ACC football in particular, yet has remained such a devoted Duke football fan through the years.

Having gone through identity verification earlier today, thanks to JasonEvans for requesting it and Devildeac for providing it, I can also vouch for the veracity of the statement above by Stray Gator about the extent of travel BudWom endures to attend Duke's home games. Makes my 1 hour trek insignificant in comparison. He is a true Duke football fan.

budwom
11-12-2007, 03:42 PM
My irrational exuberance for Duke football is clearly a sign of a mental defect. I need to get a life.

Stray Gator
11-12-2007, 03:46 PM
My irrational exuberance for Duke football is clearly a sign of a mental defect. I need to get a life.

No, BudWom, you've got it backwards--more people need to get exuberance for Duke football! :D

watzone
11-12-2007, 05:59 PM
This thread would not exist if DFB could just er ..... win a game or two. I like the proposal for Wade improvements on the third page of the program. Perhaps, next year, it will just say improvements which would make it a lot more meaningful.

Ima Facultiwyfe
11-13-2007, 01:04 PM
It's the sort of issue that would make a good case study for the Harvard Business Review.....

At the first of the season, we read that the athletic department was engaging the Fuqua School in the whole process of giving football a shot in the arm. Did anything ever come of that? Is it ongoing?

Love, Ima

RepoMan
11-13-2007, 01:29 PM
what I was getting at is that attending a Duke game is pretty unique. Aside from the game on the field, Duke's approach to things like parking, tailgating, concessions, bathrooms can give you a much bigger picture of the problem....I really do find it fascinating.

Sadly, I don't get a chance to attend many games outside Wallace Wade. Would you mind elaborating on your observations about the unique nature of the home Duke game experience? Thx

ugadevil
11-13-2007, 01:47 PM
Since you evidently took my initial comment the wrong way, or I articulated it rather poorly, what I was getting at is that attending a Duke game is pretty unique. Aside from the game on the field, Duke's approach to things like parking, tailgating, concessions, bathrooms can give you a much bigger picture of the problem....I really do find it fascinating.

I could be wrong, especially because I'm not a big follower of Duke football, but it sounds like you're saying that the university isn't doing much to help the program. In your opinion, what would the solution be? It seems like a difficult situation because there's the stance of, "if we invest more money in the program, then we'll have more success" which contrasts the stance of "if we have success, then we'll invest money in the program."

feldspar
11-13-2007, 02:00 PM
Just FTR, Grey Devil has had no conflicts with the moderation team. Nor has CathyCA.

What's your point?

j/k clearly felt CathyCA's analogy didn't mean a hill of beans to the discussion. Cathy felt it did. To me, that pretty much fits the definition of not seeing "eye to eye."

My only point was that just because the mods don't agree with your opinion, that's no reason to quit posting. Lord knows I would have left town a long time ago had that been the case.

throatybeard
11-13-2007, 02:21 PM
I have no idea what you're talking about this time. :confused:

Feldspar, if the moderation team has problems with you, it doesn't have to do with disagreeing about your opinions.


What's your point?

j/k clearly felt CathyCA's analogy didn't mean a hill of beans to the discussion. Cathy felt it did. To me, that pretty much fits the definition of not seeing "eye to eye."

My only point was that just because the mods don't agree with your opinion, that's no reason to quit posting. Lord knows I would have left town a long time ago had that been the case.

feldspar
11-13-2007, 02:48 PM
Feldspar, if the moderation team has problems with you, it doesn't have to do with disagreeing about your opinions.

I have no idea what you're talking about this time. :confused:

budwom
11-13-2007, 03:59 PM
Sadly, I don't get a chance to attend many games outside Wallace Wade. Would you mind elaborating on your observations about the unique nature of the home Duke game experience? Thx

Sure. (prepare for longwinded, rambling response...) At most major universities, the day of a football game is a pretty big deal, and they prepare for it appropriately. Given that a school generally doesn't have more than about six home games/year, that shouldn't pose too much of a problem.

Having attended a lot of Duke games, I can't help but get the impression that the school is somewhat surprised when a bunch of people show up on game day (and imagine how much more surprised they would be if the football team were winning....contrary to myth, Duke does draw decent crowds when the team is good, though we haven't been good for the past 13 years.)

Example: up until a year or two ago, the gates to the parking lots on Wannamaker Drive were locked until about an hour and a half before game time. For people who like to tailgate, this seemed like an inane thing to do. If you want people to attend your games, shouldn't you make it easy for them to do so?

So I called the Iron Dukes and asked them why in the world they couldn't get the gates opened earlier. Amazingly, they told me that parking at Duke was handled by some separate entity (security?) and that they couldn't do much about it. I can recall numerous times when cars were backed up halfway into Durham as the gates were locked.....even more amazingly, the security people were standing around inside the locked gates, but when we yelled to them they said they had their orders and they couldn't open the gates yet.
No one really seemed to care.

I think this problem has finally been rectified, and the gates now open well ahead of time.

Parking continues to be a mindboggling challenge. Either at the Wake or UCONN games, the traffic luminaries introduced a "new" system which might have looked good on paper if you were doing acid, but for everyone else it was just monumentally stupid. As traffic headed up onto Wannamaker Drive, they fed people coming from the Durham side into a right hand lane, and those coming from 751 into a left lane. Two nice lanes of traffic....which immediately gridlocked, hopelessly, because half the people in the right lane need to park on the left side of Wannamaker (Iron Duke lots) and half the people in the left lanes wanted to park on the right side (public lots). To paraphrase Winston Churchill, never have so many been delayed for so long by so few cars. It was mind-numbingly stupid. It took forever to unravel.

Concessions: Duke, for various (ill-considered) reasons chose to play the opening game against UCONN at noon, on Sept. 1. Needless to say, lots of griping among fans ensued, as the game wasn't on TV, Durham is ungodly hot in early September, and we used to have night games in September if the game wasn't on TV. No matter, even though Duke wanted to stimulate fan interest, they couldn't have chosen a more hostile time to play...

The weather didn't disappoint. It was very hot (though it could have been worse). The crowd was pretty decent all things considered. And the concession stands ran out of water by halftime. Given the fact that you can keep bottled water around for months, isn't it somewhat ludicrous that the people in charge couldn't even make water available? Who is in charge? Is anyone in charge?

The bathrooms: if you've ever visited the restrooms at Wally Wade, no comment is needed. If you haven't, the closest description I can give is of the Turkish prison in Midnight Express. Squalid would be too nice a word.

What is somewhat demoralizing is that fixing the problems of parking, concessions, bathrooms, and tailgating could be rectified without huge outlays of money. Some of them could be fixed with NO outlay of money.
Yet I can't help holding the opinion that no one really seems to care, and that lack of caring, that lack of attention to very fundamental details, makes the football program look pretty hapless. Among the football program, the athletic department, the Iron Dukes and the general administration, it is pretty hard to discern who, if anyone, is in charge of making the football experience minimally fan-friendly. And that's before the game starts.
(Yes, I know that there is currently a proposal to upgrade Wally Wade, and that's a good thing..but we also need to upgrade the competence of the people who run the entire game day experience.)

Beyond the manner in which Game Day is run at Duke, then you have the whole thorny issue of how to compete, and I certainly have mixed feelings about what can or should be done about that. Regardless, it's evident to most everyone that ever since Florida State was added to the ACC, the league has been in a massive football arms race, and adding VT, Miami and Boston College has only exacerbated that situation. Virtually every school has added wildly extravagant training facilities (the Yoh Center is very nice, and a big improvement for Duke, but it surely modest compared to everything else in the league) and has completed, or initiated, major stadium additions and renovations.

Meanwhile, almost every team in the league has broken the bank to lure big name coaches. The Heels threw a few million bucks at Butch Davis, along with a reported promise that admissions standards would be significantly relaxed. Wake has relaxed standards and that (along with the presence of a very, very good coach) got them an ACC title in football, something which would have been unthinkable years ago...but Wake has entered into the football arms race, too. (Steve Spurrier made a very serious comment about Duke football, saying that Duke should do what Wake does, which is to admit eight or nine minimum qualifiers into the program each year).

So the fan side of me would love to see winning football return to Duke, or at least far less losing than we've seen in the past 13 years. Update the stadium, throw lots of money at the program to upgrade coaching salaries, recruiting....tweak admissions standards. The fan side of me likes this idea.

But another part of me wonders if the entire ACC arms race isn't just completely ludicrous for institutions whose primary mission is to educate students. Having a winning football team sure is fun, but the price being paid to attain it at just about every other ACC school right now really is, I believe, nonsensical. On a totally different plane from what's required for hoops.

I have some European friends who often ask me to explain how and why American universities are so heavily engaged in sporting activities, and usually I can offer a few halfway passable arguments. But the football situation is pretty difficult to rationalize, with tens of millions being spent for facilities, enormous, very highly paid coaching staffs, 85 scholarships and the like.

Thank goodness basketball is, by comparison, a much, much more modest undertaking.

siestadogz
11-13-2007, 05:24 PM
The subject of Duke Football is met with apathy, hopelessness, and sometimes defensiveness. Part of the problem is we do not know the university's real commitment to football and are not privileged to the plans for its success. There are no guidelines for what is expected and for what is possible.
One argument for our lack of success is the academic excellence of the school.
Wake forest, Navy, Vanderbilt are three schools that are competitive if not great.
Another argument is that we are so bad we cannot attract a good coach. You have to be creative in the hiring and hire a man with vision and leadership who may not have head coaching experience. South Florida has been playing football for 10 years and is beating ranked teams. Their coach had been an assistant a Kansas State. They had no football stadium, football offices were trailers, late practices were lighted by the coaches cars.No experience, bad facilities, no tradition. He found talent in players bypassed by U of F,
FSU, and Miami. We can find such a man. I will also add that he has been offered and rejected offers at big name schools to see through the program he has started. Do I sound like a fan? You bet. This is how a fan base starts. People need to see a vision and then progress and then success. Uconn is another school that has progressed quickly.
Another attribute of a well coached team is one that progresses during the year. Look at our rival UNC. When they run a play they are executing so much quicker than before.
If Duke really doesn't care so be it. But lets not go on like this. ||||||||When were we last excited about our team?

fan345678
11-13-2007, 06:07 PM
I'll confess that I waddled out of the Clemson game at halftime, something I had never done before. Generally I don't leave more than about five minutes before the end of the game. So I, too, have my limits, CameronBlue..

Since you evidently took my initial comment the wrong way, or I articulated it rather poorly, what I was getting at is that attending a Duke game is pretty unique. Aside from the game on the field, Duke's approach to things like parking, tailgating, concessions, bathrooms can give you a much bigger picture of the problem....I really do find it fascinating.


Some folks have asked for elaboration on this, so I will make that effort. I've heard that some upgrades have been made in the last couple years, but here is the take from a recent graduate:

1. Parking- enforcement is completely sporadic, and as of my senior year, students were forced to move their cars away on game days. Many people must invent parking spaces along the roads. There is little or no organization involved. Just add it to the overall disaster that is Duke Parking (BUT WE CANNOT DIVERT FROM THE SACRED MASTER PLAN!!!!!!)
2. Tailgating- Tailgating is a crapshoot and the narrow thruways in the parking lots do not offer very much room for it. The overall disorganization of parking keeps tailgating down, as well.
3. I will tie concessions and bathrooms together. The facilities for each are not unlike those at county fairgrounds in the heart of Appalachia. They are (or at least were; they may have changed) the typical cinder block sheds found at small high schools everywhere. Actually, the bathrooms were worse than that, with only two very small locations in the entire stadium, one down a steep hill. There were few stalls and no doors. God help you if you have to go on a day when the stadium's even half full.

Some other embarrassing shortcomings of Wallace Wade that may not have been mentioned: no covered concourse area, almost everyone gets funnelled to two entry/exit points, souvenier tents instead of shops, and nothing to attract fans before or after the game. The entire atmosphere screams, "We don't care!"

Duke has, without a doubt, the worst revenue sports facilities of any school in the BCS conferences. Thanks goodness the success of basketball makes Cameron legendary, rather than obsolete.

Chard
11-13-2007, 06:17 PM
My irrational exuberance for Duke football is clearly a sign of a mental defect. I need to get a life.

Nah, man. You are a true fan if there ever was one. Good for you! You should be proud.

jlear
11-13-2007, 06:27 PM
Duke, for various (ill-considered) reasons chose to play the opening game against UCONN at noon, on Sept. 1.

Duke does not decide the start time of non-TV games the Head Coach does so you can thank him.

jlear
11-13-2007, 06:42 PM
Some other embarrassing shortcomings of Wallace Wade that may not have been mentioned: no covered concourse area, almost everyone gets funnelled to two entry/exit points, souvenier tents instead of shops, and nothing to attract fans before or after the game. The entire atmosphere screams, "We don't care!"

Duke has, without a doubt, the worst revenue sports facilities of any school in the BCS conferences. Thanks goodness the success of basketball makes Cameron legendary, rather than obsolete.

A possible solution is to just play all of our games away. We could strike some deal to revenue share with the teams that should be traveling to Durham. We could make more money and die-hard fans could just travel with the team. Many times Wallace Wade looks like a home away from home for the away team anyway.

PLEASE NOTE: this message is meant to be sarcastic...

CathyCA
11-13-2007, 07:34 PM
What's your point?

j/k clearly felt CathyCA's analogy didn't mean a hill of beans to the discussion. Cathy felt it did. To me, that pretty much fits the definition of not seeing "eye to eye."

My only point was that just because the mods don't agree with your opinion, that's no reason to quit posting. Lord knows I would have left town a long time ago had that been the case.


I don't have any problem with the moderators, at least not on THIS thread. I simply offered up a real-life Duke Basketball example of how a coach--OUR COACH K--responded to fan speculation and criticism.

I will also tell you all that this messageboard's namesake was one of Coach K's most ardent supporters. When others were blasting away at him, she sent him flowers and congratulatory notes. She saw the bigger picture and she realized that while Coach K wasn't winning basketball games then, he was winning the recruiting wars. Liz King was a classy lady and astute fan.

DU82
11-13-2007, 08:45 PM
Some folks have asked for elaboration on this, so I will make that effort. I've heard that some upgrades have been made in the last couple years, but here is the take from a recent graduate:

1. Parking- enforcement is completely sporadic, and as of my senior year, students were forced to move their cars away on game days. Many people must invent parking spaces along the roads. There is little or no organization involved. Just add it to the overall disaster that is Duke Parking (BUT WE CANNOT DIVERT FROM THE SACRED MASTER PLAN!!!!!!)
2. Tailgating- Tailgating is a crapshoot and the narrow thruways in the parking lots do not offer very much room for it. The overall disorganization of parking keeps tailgating down, as well.
3. I will tie concessions and bathrooms together. The facilities for each are not unlike those at county fairgrounds in the heart of Appalachia. They are (or at least were; they may have changed) the typical cinder block sheds found at small high schools everywhere. Actually, the bathrooms were worse than that, with only two very small locations in the entire stadium, one down a steep hill. There were few stalls and no doors. God help you if you have to go on a day when the stadium's even half full.

Some other embarrassing shortcomings of Wallace Wade that may not have been mentioned: no covered concourse area, almost everyone gets funnelled to two entry/exit points, souvenier tents instead of shops, and nothing to attract fans before or after the game. The entire atmosphere screams, "We don't care!"

Duke has, without a doubt, the worst revenue sports facilities of any school in the BCS conferences. Thanks goodness the success of basketball makes Cameron legendary, rather than obsolete.

Let me add some comments:

1. Parking and circulation. When you funnel traffic through the same points, there's gridlock. Key intersections include 751 and Science Dr., Duke U. Road and Wannamaker, Tower View and anything (public parking from that side's directed to the parking deck next tothe Bryan Center, with only one exit now that the new engineering buildings have been built on top of what was the other end of Science Dr.) Iron Duke parking, at least on the north side, is easy, first come, first served in the grass lot.

I understand that the parking/circulation plan is governed by the police dept. That plus there is no permanent head of parking and transportation (the position was vacated over the summer.) The police can handle what's in front of them, but they are not traffic specialists.

On the same subject, for basketball almost all Iron Duke lots are funneled through the same point on Science Drive. That's also where the scalpers now hang out. One person stops to buy/sell, and everything stops.

There is no longer parking allowed on the shoulders on 751, which I believe is a good thing from a safety and circulation standpoint. That does force all visitors to the same Bryan Center lot.

2. I rarely see many people tailgating, and really haven't in 30 years. Most students "tailgated" at their benches, not that there's a lot of that these days. It is a different attitude; State fans from work today were bragging about their win Saturday. They got to the stadium around 8AM for their noon game, and I'm sure they weren't the first ones there.

3. There's three sets of bathrooms since I believe they took out the fourth set to build the Yoh center (I'm rarely on the south side (Wannamaker) of the stadium, so I'm not 100% sure.) Actually you are correct, there are only two left, since the one in the far corner of the north side is technically outside the stadium. IT would be nice to walk into the men's room without the floor being flooded (this is BEFORE the game, not during.) The only stadium I've ever been to that was worse was Tiger STadium, a few years before Comerica Park was built.

(Bathrooms in Cameron aren't much better. The lines at the half are worse than ever. They expanded the women's facilities when they built the new fire escapes on the Card side, but no new men's facilities. And with the average age of upstairs attendees increasing, it takes longer. :-)

Concessions? IT was cold Saturday (for Durham, at least.) I look for hot chocolate. The first stand had the chocolate, no hot water. The second handed me a cup of hot water, and a Swiss Miss package for me to mix. When I went back later, they had no packets left, but the first still didn't have hot water to go with their packets. (No I didn't feel like carrying a packet back to the first stand for the water.) IT was simpler then, but HArry Rainey would have never tolerated this.

I don't want us to fully join the nuclear explosion in facilities like our two closest neighbors, but it would be nice to have the basics. NOW, not five years from now.

Bluedawg
11-13-2007, 09:14 PM
Sure. (prepare for longwinded, rambling response...) At most major universities, the day of a football game is a pretty big deal, and they prepare for it appropriately. Given that a school generally doesn't have more than about six home games/year, that shouldn't pose too much of a problem.

Having attended a lot of Duke games, I can't help but get the impression that the school is somewhat surprised when a bunch of people show up on game day (and imagine how much more surprised they would be if the football team were winning....contrary to myth, Duke does draw decent crowds when the team is good, though we haven't been good for the past 13 years.)

Example: up until a year or two ago, the gates to the parking lots on Wannamaker Drive were locked until about an hour and a half before game time. For people who like to tailgate, this seemed like an inane thing to do. If you want people to attend your games, shouldn't you make it easy for them to do so?

So I called the Iron Dukes and asked them why in the world they couldn't get the gates opened earlier. Amazingly, they told me that parking at Duke was handled by some separate entity (security?) and that they couldn't do much about it. I can recall numerous times when cars were backed up halfway into Durham as the gates were locked.....even more amazingly, the security people were standing around inside the locked gates, but when we yelled to them they said they had their orders and they couldn't open the gates yet.
No one really seemed to care.

I think this problem has finally been rectified, and the gates now open well ahead of time.

Parking continues to be a mindboggling challenge. Either at the Wake or UCONN games, the traffic luminaries introduced a "new" system which might have looked good on paper if you were doing acid, but for everyone else it was just monumentally stupid. As traffic headed up onto Wannamaker Drive, they fed people coming from the Durham side into a right hand lane, and those coming from 751 into a left lane. Two nice lanes of traffic....which immediately gridlocked, hopelessly, because half the people in the right lane need to park on the left side of Wannamaker (Iron Duke lots) and half the people in the left lanes wanted to park on the right side (public lots). To paraphrase Winston Churchill, never have so many been delayed for so long by so few cars. It was mind-numbingly stupid. It took forever to unravel.

Concessions: Duke, for various (ill-considered) reasons chose to play the opening game against UCONN at noon, on Sept. 1. Needless to say, lots of griping among fans ensued, as the game wasn't on TV, Durham is ungodly hot in early September, and we used to have night games in September if the game wasn't on TV. No matter, even though Duke wanted to stimulate fan interest, they couldn't have chosen a more hostile time to play...

The weather didn't disappoint. It was very hot (though it could have been worse). The crowd was pretty decent all things considered. And the concession stands ran out of water by halftime. Given the fact that you can keep bottled water around for months, isn't it somewhat ludicrous that the people in charge couldn't even make water available? Who is in charge? Is anyone in charge?

The bathrooms: if you've ever visited the restrooms at Wally Wade, no comment is needed. If you haven't, the closest description I can give is of the Turkish prison in Midnight Express. Squalid would be too nice a word.

What is somewhat demoralizing is that fixing the problems of parking, concessions, bathrooms, and tailgating could be rectified without huge outlays of money. Some of them could be fixed with NO outlay of money.
Yet I can't help holding the opinion that no one really seems to care, and that lack of caring, that lack of attention to very fundamental details, makes the football program look pretty hapless. Among the football program, the athletic department, the Iron Dukes and the general administration, it is pretty hard to discern who, if anyone, is in charge of making the football experience minimally fan-friendly. And that's before the game starts.
(Yes, I know that there is currently a proposal to upgrade Wally Wade, and that's a good thing..but we also need to upgrade the competence of the people who run the entire game day experience.)

Beyond the manner in which Game Day is run at Duke, then you have the whole thorny issue of how to compete, and I certainly have mixed feelings about what can or should be done about that. Regardless, it's evident to most everyone that ever since Florida State was added to the ACC, the league has been in a massive football arms race, and adding VT, Miami and Boston College has only exacerbated that situation. Virtually every school has added wildly extravagant training facilities (the Yoh Center is very nice, and a big improvement for Duke, but it surely modest compared to everything else in the league) and has completed, or initiated, major stadium additions and renovations.

Meanwhile, almost every team in the league has broken the bank to lure big name coaches. The Heels threw a few million bucks at Butch Davis, along with a reported promise that admissions standards would be significantly relaxed. Wake has relaxed standards and that (along with the presence of a very, very good coach) got them an ACC title in football, something which would have been unthinkable years ago...but Wake has entered into the football arms race, too. (Steve Spurrier made a very serious comment about Duke football, saying that Duke should do what Wake does, which is to admit eight or nine minimum qualifiers into the program each year).

So the fan side of me would love to see winning football return to Duke, or at least far less losing than we've seen in the past 13 years. Update the stadium, throw lots of money at the program to upgrade coaching salaries, recruiting....tweak admissions standards. The fan side of me likes this idea.

But another part of me wonders if the entire ACC arms race isn't just completely ludicrous for institutions whose primary mission is to educate students. Having a winning football team sure is fun, but the price being paid to attain it at just about every other ACC school right now really is, I believe, nonsensical. On a totally different plane from what's required for hoops.

I have some European friends who often ask me to explain how and why American universities are so heavily engaged in sporting activities, and usually I can offer a few halfway passable arguments. But the football situation is pretty difficult to rationalize, with tens of millions being spent for facilities, enormous, very highly paid coaching staffs, 85 scholarships and the like.

Thank goodness basketball is, by comparison, a much, much more modest undertaking.

When RepoMan asked if you would "mind elaborating on your observations about the unique nature of the home Duke game experience" I didn't expect to read a gripe session about all that's wrong. I will leave most of this diatribe alone, but I will point out that when the Yoh building was competed it was the state of the art building. The only problem with this is that every school that builds a football center will add something new to it. What is state of the art today probably will not be in 2 years.

RepoMan
11-13-2007, 09:32 PM
Sure. . . . The bathrooms: if you've ever visited the restrooms at Wally Wade, no comment is needed. If you haven't, the closest description I can give is of the Turkish prison in Midnight Express. Squalid would be too nice a word.


Many thanks. It is interesting to hear your perspective.

(Don't you love watching the reaction of people who clearly have never been to Wallace Wade before when, upon entering the bathroom, they try to figure out where, exactly, they are supposed to take a leak?)

I tend to think it would be worthwhile to enter the arms race, at least to a limited extent. Too much losing is just depressing. And, like you observe, at a minimum, certain enhancements could make game attendance more fun and user friendly.

I remember the Spurrier era, and, while its perhaps unrealistic to expect to catch that particular brand of lightning in the bottle again, it does show that people will support the team when it appears to at least be competitive.

Hopefully, momentum is building for improvements.

Thanks again

CameronBlue
11-13-2007, 09:45 PM
(Don't you love watching the reaction of people who clearly have never been to Wallace Wade before when, upon entering the bathroom, they try to figure out where, exactly, they are supposed to take a leak?)

Thanks again

See that's the beauty of the Wally Wade bathrooms, the "where" doesn't matter. Dude, you're overthinking this, really.

:>)

godukecom
11-13-2007, 10:12 PM
would like to say that every game, a newcomer to the bathrooms always goes in the hand-washing device (i refuse to call it a sink because it is not a sink; it is more like a torugh with running water)

i understand that renovations are expensive, but porta-johns would almost be an improvement.

that said, regardless of the outcome, i love duke, i love duke basketball, and i love duke football.

Johnboy
11-13-2007, 10:12 PM
See that's the beauty of the Wally Wade bathrooms, the "where" doesn't matter. Dude, you're overthinking this, really.

:>)

Your avatar is perfect for this post.

CameronBlue
11-13-2007, 10:30 PM
I tried to photoshop in "Wally Wade Men's Room" but it doesn't read. You can't read what's on the door now "Duke" (on top of course) and "UNC".

budwom
11-14-2007, 07:25 AM
When RepoMan asked if you would "mind elaborating on your observations about the unique nature of the home Duke game experience" I didn't expect to read a gripe session about all that's wrong. I will leave most of this diatribe alone, but I will point out that when the Yoh building was competed it was the state of the art building. The only problem with this is that every school that builds a football center will add something new to it. What is state of the art today probably will not be in 2 years.

Well, Bluedawg, I was asked to elaborate and I did.
You might also note that I didn't say the Yoh Building was either inadequate or inappropriate....I said it was modest compared to every other building in the ACC. It was NEVER state of the art (go ask some ACC writers, who get around, what is and was "state of the art" for football buildings)....and a good part of me thinks that it shouldn't be....

I think some of the posters who responded to my "diatribe" have it quite right: no one seems to be in charge, and no one seems to care. No matter what level we choose to compete at, there is absolutely no excuse for that.

As for those who made comments about coaching, team improvement this year, etc, well, I steered clear of that in deference to the moderators who don't want this to become a fire Ted Roof forum. But I do have thoughts on the matter, to be sure.

RPS
11-14-2007, 09:15 AM
I think some of the posters who responded to my "diatribe" have it quite right: no one seems to be in charge, and no one seems to care. No matter what level we choose to compete at, there is absolutely no excuse for that.This is the heart of the matter. I have argued before here that football (and sports in general) are important to a school's overall success (note for example the correlation between our basketball success and our overall prestige/"ranking"). However, that argument is largely irrelevant. The ACC today is obviously committed to being (or trying to be) a top flight football conference. If we're going to stay there (and I think and assume that hoops dictates that we should and will), football is mandatory. And if it's a requirement, it makes no sense to me that we seem institutionally and apathetically committed to sucking at it. With the current situation (no administrative support, lousy facilities and essentially no student/alumni/fan support for starters), it's hard for me to imagine any coach succeeding (which I define as merely being competitive). That's unfair to Coach Roof, his staff and, most of all, to the kids who chose to come to Duke and represent our university.

formerdukeathlete
11-14-2007, 09:35 AM
Well, Bluedawg, I was asked to elaborate and I did.
You might also note that I didn't say the Yoh Building was either inadequate or inappropriate....I said it was modest compared to every other building in the ACC. It was NEVER state of the art (go ask some ACC writers, who get around, what is and was "state of the art" for football buildings)....and a good part of me thinks that it shouldn't be....

I think some of the posters who responded to my "diatribe" have it quite right: no one seems to be in charge, and no one seems to care. No matter what level we choose to compete at, there is absolutely no excuse for that.

As for those who made comments about coaching, team improvement this year, etc, well, I steered clear of that in deference to the moderators who don't want this to become a fire Ted Roof forum. But I do have thoughts on the matter, to be sure.

My take on the athletic department evolution:

- Football made money on its own through the Bill Murray days and briefly with Spurrier and maybe for a couple of Goldsmith years. President Knight de-emphasized football in the late 60s.

- Basketball virtually always at least broke even.

- scholarship costs were always significant factor.

- Enter Title IX, more basketball sucess, significant conference revenue sharing.

- Conference revenue sharing related to Football virtually assures that Duke would make money after considering revenue sharing which is attributable to football.

- Nan is ambivalent about sports in the sense that she does not see sports as intergral to the Duke experience. She feels free to attack the campus culture. But, basketball continues to be impressive, and she needs, we need the revenue sharing to fund women's athletic scholarships.

Where we are now - Football can be much more profitable. However, what we pay in additional coaching salaries would certainly eat into this.

The Fuqua study may bring home that what we spend would be to ensure continued membership in the ACC, and that this should make economic sense.

Now would seem to be the time for the U. to figure this out and make the commitments which hopefully we will make. Wait more time, and fewer benefactors (or a lower percentage of benefactors) will actually remember or care about good football.

As Jim Sumner said on this Board I believe, or was it Allen Murray or Ozzie, the commitments are proposed, but if the Trustees do not approve, we might as well kiss the ACC goodbye.

Of course, we do not want to do this because Duke basketball should, needs to be, we want it to be, in the ACC. The ACC requires football. So, I am not sure which tail is wagging the dog, so to speak, but hopefull it will wag strongly enough that we will address the issues budwom articulated so well.

Indoor66
11-14-2007, 09:44 AM
My take on the athletic department evolution:

- Football made money on its own through the Bill Murray days and briefly with Spurrier and maybe for a couple of Goldsmith years. President Knight de-emphasized football in the late 60s.

- Basketball virtually always at least broke even.

- scholarship costs were always significant factor.

- Enter Title IX, more basketball sucess, significant conference revenue sharing.

- Conference revenue sharing related to Football virtually assures that Duke would make money after considering revenue sharing which is attributable to football.

- Nan is ambivalent about sports in the sense that she does not see sports as intergral to the Duke experience. She feels free to attack the campus culture. But, basketball continues to be impressive, and she needs, we need the revenue sharing to fund women's athletic scholarships.

Where we are now - Football can be much more profitable. However, what we pay in additional coaching salaries would certainly eat into this.

The Fuqua study may bring home that what we spend would be to ensure continued membership in the ACC, and that this should make economic sense.

Now would seem to be the time for the U. to figure this out and make the commitments which hopefully we will make. Wait more time, and fewer benefactors (or a lower percentage of benefactors) will actually remember or care about good football.

As Jim Sumner said on this Board I believe, or was it Allen Murray or Ozzie, the commitments are proposed, but if the Trustees do not approve, we might as well kiss the ACC goodbye.

Of course, we do not want to do this because Duke basketball should, needs to be, we want it to be, in the ACC. The ACC requires football. So, I am not sure which tail is wagging the dog, so to speak, but hopefull it will wag strongly enough that we will address the issues budwom articulated so well.

Good post and I agree with most of except about "kiss the ACC goodbye."

I have come to the position, reading this board, the the University needs to put more resources into Football. I do not think replacing Roof is sensible. I think giving Roof and Football better facilities through refurbishing WW - including new sanitation facilities, new concession facilities and better, theater-type seats in the stadium and general sprucing up overall. A building complementary to the press box facility to replace the President's box and a new scouting box.

dukie8
11-14-2007, 10:27 PM
i am dumbfounded reading these posts. why are people fixated on the bathrooms in ww??? earth to several posters, ww could have bathroom attendants handing out linen towels and gold plated stalls and the football team wouldn't have a single more victory or a single more point on the field. the amount of volumes in perkins has about as much relevance to the success of the football team as the quality of the bathrooms in ww. there are many other REAL issues that adversely affect the football team. ww stalls ain't one of them.

another very over-rated aspect is "facilities." the yoh center is perfectly adequate for the strength and conditioning of division 1 football players. what equipment do you think other schools have that duke doesn't??? it's not like there is some expensive magic strength and conditioning bullet out there that duke doesn't have. could there be more flat screen tvs, more mirrors, a better stereo system, fancier lockers or a nicer rec center? sure. do some recruits make decisions over those things? sure. however, i don't think that most guys duke is going after are going to be swung over the fact that duke doesn't have pioneer elite plasm tvs all over the yoh center and all of those trappings have zero impact on how good or bad the team is.

i don't understand what the problem with tailgaiting is. when i was there, we had no problem going to the lots at the end of wannamaker and doing our thing -- often well into the 2nd quarter. are those lots no longer available for basic tailgaiting?

dukie8
11-14-2007, 10:36 PM
fwiw, bloomberg had an interesting article today on the cost of firing college football coaches. it's here:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aagrXdMzmjn4

me thinks that someone high up at nd has been running numbers related to how much it will cost to can weis versus how much lost revenue they will suffer from should he continue on.

Bluedawg
11-14-2007, 10:39 PM
no one seems to be in charge, and no one seems to care..

I strongly disagree with that statement.

throatybeard
11-14-2007, 10:39 PM
The cost depends entirely on how long you extended the guy before firing him. ND has put themselves in a more-than-Gilleneque sitch.

dukie8
11-14-2007, 10:42 PM
nd loses a ton of revenue each year it doesn't go to a bcs bowl because it doesn't have to share any revenue with a conference. they ain't going anytime soon with weis at the helm.

throatybeard
11-14-2007, 10:45 PM
nd loses a ton of revenue each year it doesn't go to a bcs bowl because it doesn't have to share any revenue with a conference. they ain't going anytime soon with weis at the helm.

I agree, but I don't see what that has to do with the inherent value of firing or not firing coaches. (Which you were talking about)

For me, one of the great petty satisfactions in sports commentary life has been seeing Colin Cowherd have to slowly, gingerly, ease himself off Weis' figurative jock. That guy threw Willingham under the bus and then bowed at the Weis altar. Oops.

Bluedawg
11-14-2007, 10:46 PM
Good post and I agree with most of except about "kiss the ACC goodbye."

I have come to the position, reading this board, the the University needs to put more resources into Football. I do not think replacing Roof is sensible. I think giving Roof and Football better facilities through refurbishing WW - including new sanitation facilities, new concession facilities and better, theater-type seats in the stadium and general sprucing up overall. A building complementary to the press box facility to replace the President's box and a new scouting box.

I agree. While new facilities is not the end all to a stronger team it shows an investment that recruits need to see and feel.

RPS
11-15-2007, 07:33 AM
I strongly disagree with that statement.I would love to think you're right but the evidence is pretty compelling (to the point of being obvious) that nobody seems to be in charge (or at least no competent person seems to be exercising leadership for the university with respect to football) and that nobody cares (starting with attendance). Would you care to elaborate on what you think we're missing?

Scoring Point
11-15-2007, 07:47 AM
I would love to think you're right but the evidence is pretty compelling (to the point of being obvious) that nobody seems to be in charge (or at least no competent person seems to be exercising leadership for the university with respect to football) and that nobody cares (starting with attendance). Would you care to elaborate on what you think we're missing?

I am a Northwestern season ticket holder and have been to games at Vandy and Stanford, and can tell you that the Duke game day experience is significantly different - and generally much lamer - than at those schools, which are generally cited as our best comps for football purposes. I have a hard time arguing with the view that no one is in charge and no one (relatively speaking) seems to care.

walras
11-15-2007, 07:52 AM
The university's structure/process for creating the strategic plan for athletics is going public today (Thursday) at the Academic Council meeting. It's been the subject of a number of on campus group meetings so far. The plan itself will get to the Trustees in February. Football is central to the plan, and the issues raised on this board are faced directly. Duke will of course remain in the ACC, and extremely sensible plans for moving to a competitive football program are front and center. Stay tuned.

OZZIE4DUKE
11-15-2007, 08:47 AM
The university's structure/process for creating the strategic plan for athletics is going public today (Thursday) at the Academic Council meeting. It's been the subject of a number of on campus group meetings so far. The plan itself will get to the Trustees in February. Football is central to the plan, and the issues raised on this board are faced directly. Duke will of course remain in the ACC, and extremely sensible plans for moving to a competitive football program are front and center. Stay tuned.

You're asking us to be patient? This group? You've got to be kidding...

I look forward to learning about the plan.

budwom
11-15-2007, 09:58 AM
The university's structure/process for creating the strategic plan for athletics is going public today (Thursday) at the Academic Council meeting. It's been the subject of a number of on campus group meetings so far. The plan itself will get to the Trustees in February. Football is central to the plan, and the issues raised on this board are faced directly. Duke will of course remain in the ACC, and extremely sensible plans for moving to a competitive football program are front and center. Stay tuned.

I am aware of this initiative, and it is a good thing. We'll see how it turns out.
However, I remain frustrated that there are things which can be done to enhance the game day experience which do not require money or trustee approval. An engaged and competent athletic department could fix many of these things without a big expenditure of money. The level of awareness needs to be increased significantly in my opinion....

pfrduke
11-15-2007, 12:22 PM
no one seems to be in charge, and no one seems to care. No matter what level we choose to compete at, there is absolutely no excuse for that.


I strongly disagree with that statement.

As a matter of curiosity, who, among the university administration, do you see actively taking charge of the situation surrounding the football program and aggressively trying to improve it? If you disagree with the assertion that no one in the administration (and I should say that budwom's comment seemed to be addressing people who could actually do something to fix the program, rather than Duke fans in general) cares much about making changes, I'd be interested to hear who you think is running the show, and how they're showing that they are taking charge and investing time and care into improving the program.

fan345678
11-15-2007, 04:29 PM
i am dumbfounded reading these posts. why are people fixated on the bathrooms in ww??? earth to several posters, ww could have bathroom attendants handing out linen towels and gold plated stalls and the football team wouldn't have a single more victory or a single more point on the field. the amount of volumes in perkins has about as much relevance to the success of the football team as the quality of the bathrooms in ww. there are many other REAL issues that adversely affect the football team. ww stalls ain't one of them.

another very over-rated aspect is "facilities." the yoh center is perfectly adequate for the strength and conditioning of division 1 football players. what equipment do you think other schools have that duke doesn't??? it's not like there is some expensive magic strength and conditioning bullet out there that duke doesn't have. could there be more flat screen tvs, more mirrors, a better stereo system, fancier lockers or a nicer rec center? sure. do some recruits make decisions over those things? sure. however, i don't think that most guys duke is going after are going to be swung over the fact that duke doesn't have pioneer elite plasm tvs all over the yoh center and all of those trappings have zero impact on how good or bad the team is.

i don't understand what the problem with tailgaiting is. when i was there, we had no problem going to the lots at the end of wannamaker and doing our thing -- often well into the 2nd quarter. are those lots no longer available for basic tailgaiting?

And herein lies the problem.

The bathrooms, the tailgating, the parking, the mere "adequacy" of the Yoh Center, and even poor coaching, are all symptoms of the underlying problem: the university doesn't care. You are correct that none of these symptoms, if addressed, will produce a successful football team. The fact that all of these symptoms are present, however, simply conveys to fans, players, media, opposing fans, potential applicants for coaching positions, etc., that Duke is not interested in improving football.

A good, or at least improving, football program also has symptoms. Among these are the willingness to provide facilities that are more than simply "adequate" and a desire to impress upon fans-- both its own and its opponents'-- that their presence is appreciated. These are, of course, related, and they create positive attention. Positive attention creates interest, interest creates revenue, revenue creates sustainability, sustainability creates consistency, and consistency cultivates progress.

When we complain about the presenting issues, we aren't saying that addressing what's on the surface will fix Duke football. We are saying that Duke football is rotten at the core.

DU82
11-15-2007, 06:31 PM
i am dumbfounded reading these posts. why are people fixated on the bathrooms in ww??? earth to several posters, ww could have bathroom attendants handing out linen towels and gold plated stalls and the football team wouldn't have a single more victory or a single more point on the field. the amount of volumes in perkins has about as much relevance to the success of the football team as the quality of the bathrooms in ww. there are many other REAL issues that adversely affect the football team. ww stalls ain't one of them.



Wallace Wade Stadium isn't used just for football. There's graduation ceremonies, concerts (ok, concert in the last few years), high school playoff football, track events, etc. Is it too much to ask for some basic accommodations? Would you tolerate it if Page had the same issue with facilities? This isn't just about football.

Bluedawg
11-15-2007, 07:00 PM
I would love to think you're right but the evidence is pretty compelling (to the point of being obvious) that nobody seems to be in charge (or at least no competent person seems to be exercising leadership for the university with respect to football) and that nobody cares (starting with attendance). Would you care to elaborate on what you think we're missing?

As far as i can tell, the fact that the stadium is in need of upgrading is the only rationale I've seen for people to say that "no one is in charge or cares." Is that truly the foundation of your claim or is there some other basis.

Do you know how much work it takes to actually put on a game?

Bluedawg
11-15-2007, 07:02 PM
I am aware of this initiative, and it is a good thing. We'll see how it turns out.
However, I remain frustrated that there are things which can be done to enhance the game day experience which do not require money or trustee approval. An engaged and competent athletic department could fix many of these things without a big expenditure of money. The level of awareness needs to be increased significantly in my opinion....

what?

Bluedawg
11-15-2007, 07:05 PM
As a matter of curiosity, who, among the university administration, do you see actively taking charge of the situation surrounding the football program and aggressively trying to improve it? If you disagree with the assertion that no one in the administration (and I should say that budwom's comment seemed to be addressing people who could actually do something to fix the program, rather than Duke fans in general) cares much about making changes, I'd be interested to hear who you think is running the show, and how they're showing that they are taking charge and investing time and care into improving the program.

there is more going on than people realize.


The university's structure/process for creating the strategic plan for athletics is going public today (Thursday) at the Academic Council meeting. It's been the subject of a number of on campus group meetings so far. The plan itself will get to the Trustees in February. Football is central to the plan, and the issues raised on this board are faced directly. Duke will of course remain in the ACC, and extremely sensible plans for moving to a competitive football program are front and center. Stay tuned.

Like I've said, the only basis is a stadium in need of repair. I've really heard other than that to support this contention.

Bluedawg
11-15-2007, 07:15 PM
the mere "adequacy" of the Yoh Center,...

here is a description of rthe You Center from The Sporting News (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-108649670.html)published 10/6/2003


The linebacker hops on the elevator in the new football-only facility at Duke...

The elevator doors open into a posh, expansive jewel of a facility that could make NFL owners envious. Still, the $21 million, 70,000-square-feet, futuristic Yoh Football Center almost is an eyesore among the historic brick and brownstone on this campus. And it's a long 3-pointer flora the most famous building in town, Cameron Indoor Stadium. But it is there we get a glimpse of the current state of Duke football: "Some of those basketball players are jealous of what we have," says wide receiver Deon Adams.

"a posh, expansive jewel of a facility" A number of people have called the Yoh Center adequate. What does it not have that is needed?

dukie8
11-15-2007, 07:22 PM
And herein lies the problem.

The bathrooms, the tailgating, the parking, the mere "adequacy" of the Yoh Center, and even poor coaching, are all symptoms of the underlying problem: the university doesn't care. You are correct that none of these symptoms, if addressed, will produce a successful football team. The fact that all of these symptoms are present, however, simply conveys to fans, players, media, opposing fans, potential applicants for coaching positions, etc., that Duke is not interested in improving football.

A good, or at least improving, football program also has symptoms. Among these are the willingness to provide facilities that are more than simply "adequate" and a desire to impress upon fans-- both its own and its opponents'-- that their presence is appreciated. These are, of course, related, and they create positive attention. Positive attention creates interest, interest creates revenue, revenue creates sustainability, sustainability creates consistency, and consistency cultivates progress.

When we complain about the presenting issues, we aren't saying that addressing what's on the surface will fix Duke football. We are saying that Duke football is rotten at the core.

no. herein lies the problem. you actually equate poor coaching with bathrooms, the tailgating, the parking and the mere "adequacy" of the Yoh Center. this isn't complicated. poor coaching is a MAJOR problem with the football team. not nice bathrooms at ww are COMPLETELY irrelevant and the more people continue to site them as a problem the more the real issues get obfuscated. have you been to a game at wrigley or fenway? they are both utter dumps of stadiums. they also don't seem to deter people from attending and, in the case of boston, fielding a good team.

dukie8
11-15-2007, 07:27 PM
Wallace Wade Stadium isn't used just for football. There's graduation ceremonies, concerts (ok, concert in the last few years), high school playoff football, track events, etc. Is it too much to ask for some basic accommodations? Would you tolerate it if Page had the same issue with facilities? This isn't just about football.

actually, yes. i have been to 3 graduations there (2 of them were mine) and various other events over the years, including numerous football games. the fact that the bathrooms don't rival the bathrooms at the rainbow room and the fact that i cannot get food up to snuff with the french laundry when in ww has not in least bit impaired my experiences there -- nor that of my family who attended my graduations.

throatybeard
11-15-2007, 08:24 PM
A number of people have called the Yoh Center adequate. What does it not have that is needed?

A decent stadium attached to it.

Bluedawg
11-15-2007, 08:32 PM
As a matter of curiosity, who, among the university administration, do you see actively taking charge of the situation surrounding the football program and aggressively trying to improve it? If you disagree with the assertion that no one in the administration (and I should say that budwom's comment seemed to be addressing people who could actually do something to fix the program, rather than Duke fans in general) cares much about making changes, I'd be interested to hear who you think is running the show, and how they're showing that they are taking charge and investing time and care into improving the program.

Let's look at the time lines. 2002 or 03 [not sure what the "official" opening date was] the Football center opened, then they moved to planning the basketball center, then the plans are to move back and upgrade Wade.

If you look at the concourse you will see the plans for the new bathrooms that will be completed in 08. The Wade changes will be in stages starting with the bathrooms.

Bluedawg
11-15-2007, 08:33 PM
A decent stadium attached to it.

That has no bearing on the Yoh center and should not be a reasaon to call it adequate

DU82
11-15-2007, 09:16 PM
actually, yes. i have been to 3 graduations there (2 of them were mine) and various other events over the years, including numerous football games. the fact that the bathrooms don't rival the bathrooms at the rainbow room and the fact that i cannot get food up to snuff with the french laundry when in ww has not in least bit impaired my experiences there -- nor that of my family who attended my graduations.

I'm not talking about the Rainbow Room or French Food and that's a rediculous argument, not even in the range of being relevant. I'm talking about walking into a bathroom without having to try and avoid the water on the floor (which is impossible, since it's everywhere), or maybe just doors on the stalls. Warm water instead of cold would be nice when washing my hands. If the stadium was being built today, I doubt they'd come close to meeting code.

Regarding food, wouldn't it be nice to have some of the basics that are expected at sporting or entertainment events, such as enough drinks to serve the less than overwhelming crowds? The concession stands themselves aren't much different physically than at Carter-Finley (at least the last time I was there, which was the last time we played there) it's the preparation and service.

dukie8
11-15-2007, 09:35 PM
I'm not talking about the Rainbow Room or French Food and that's a rediculous argument, not even in the range of being relevant. I'm talking about walking into a bathroom without having to try and avoid the water on the floor (which is impossible, since it's everywhere), or maybe just doors on the stalls. Warm water instead of cold would be nice when washing my hands. If the stadium was being built today, I doubt they'd come close to meeting code.

Regarding food, wouldn't it be nice to have some of the basics that are expected at sporting or entertainment events, such as enough drinks to serve the less than overwhelming crowds? The concession stands themselves aren't much different physically than at Carter-Finley (at least the last time I was there, which was the last time we played there) it's the preparation and service.

no. thinking that bathrooms and food quality at ww have anything to do with the quality of duke football is a ridiculous concept, not even in the range of being relevant.

honestly, i couldn't care in the least about the bathrooms and food when i go to a sporting event. it's more or less expected that the bathrooms will be disgusting and i don't usually go to sporting events looking to fulfill my hunger needs. a basketball game is 2 hours and a football game is 3 hours. how hard is it to plan accordingly and not have an uncontrolled urge to chow down? it is besides me why this keeps on coming up in the context of what duke has to do to improve in football.

A-Tex Devil
11-15-2007, 10:10 PM
That has no bearing on the Yoh center and should not be a reasaon to call it adequate

Don't get me wrong, the Yoh Center is much better than what we had before, but that linked article aside, it's below average for D1A and very below average for BCS conferences. When it was built back in 2003, I remember an article saying it probably rated in the middle of the pack of ACC facilities at the time, and I believe several schools have surpassed it since.

In 2007, adequate is probably a compliment. The improvement of athletic facilities is an arms race. We are improved, sure, but we stockpiled on short range missiles while everyone else was upgrading from short range missiles to ICBMs.

Not many kids, if any, are coming to Duke because they fell in love with the facilities, and I doubt it's a huge drawing point. That would be like going to Rutgers so you can be a couple of hours from the beach.

Stray Gator
11-15-2007, 10:24 PM
no. thinking that bathrooms and food quality at ww have anything to do with the quality of duke football is a ridiculous concept, not even in the range of being relevant.

honestly, i couldn't care in the least about the bathrooms and food when i go to a sporting event. it's more or less expected that the bathrooms will be disgusting and i don't usually go to sporting events looking to fulfill my hunger needs. a basketball game is 2 hours and a football game is 3 hours. how hard is it to plan accordingly and not have an uncontrolled urge to chow down? it is besides me why this keeps on coming up in the context of what duke has to do to improve in football.

Not so fast, my friend. :D I believe many people who understand college football would say that the level of fan support in the stands is a factor in building a more successful program on the field. You may not consider it a major factor, but it's certainly "in the range of being relevant." As BudWom pointed out earlier, offering a game-day environment that makes coming to Wade Stadium a more enjoyable experience--especially for families with kids and for local residents who have no special connection with Duke but find college football games to be a fun Saturday entertainment option--could help to attract greater attendance. So in that sense, the quality of the facilities, and the operation of the event in a way that is accommodating to ticket purchasers, can increase the number of fans in the stands, which in turn can help recruiting and morale--elements that I'm sure you'll agree are relevant to improving the team's performance and results.

Bluedawg
11-15-2007, 10:31 PM
Don't get me wrong, the Yoh Center is much better than what we had before, but that linked article aside, it's below average for D1A and very below average for BCS conferences. When it was built back in 2003, I remember an article saying it probably rated in the middle of the pack of ACC facilities at the time, and I believe several schools have surpassed it since.

In 2007, adequate is probably a compliment. The improvement of athletic facilities is an arms race. We are improved, sure, but we stockpiled on short range missiles while everyone else was upgrading from short range missiles to ICBMs.

Not many kids, if any, are coming to Duke because they fell in love with the facilities, and I doubt it's a huge drawing point. That would be like going to Rutgers so you can be a couple of hours from the beach.

That still doesn't tell me what is missing. What do they have that Yoh does not.

dukie8
11-15-2007, 10:34 PM
Not so fast, my friend. :D I believe many people who understand college football would say that the level of fan support in the stands is a factor in building a more successful program on the field. You may not consider it a major factor, but it's certainly "in the range of being relevant." As BudWom pointed out earlier, offering a game-day environment that makes coming to Wade Stadium a more enjoyable experience--especially for families with kids and for local residents who have no special connection with Duke but find college football games to be a fun Saturday entertainment option--could help to attract greater attendance. So in that sense, the quality of the facilities, and the operation of the event in a way that is accommodating to ticket purchasers, can increase the number of fans in the stands, which in turn can help recruiting and morale--elements that I'm sure you'll agree are relevant to improving the team's performance and results.

virtually every other bcs school has great fan support in the stands. some of those programs are good and some of them are not good. i therefore don't think the level of fan support is very highly correlated with the success of a program. i definitely don't think that the quality of the bathrooms and the angst they cause attendees has anything to do with it and it amazes me that many people on here continue to think so. that probably is part of the problem.

dukie8
11-15-2007, 10:39 PM
That still doesn't tell me what is missing. What do they have that Yoh does not.

nothing. that is what is so ridiculous about all of these people posting about how bad duke's facilities even though they have never seen the inside of a gym -- nevermind the inside of a d1 gym. they all have the same benches, the same plates, same bars, same tables, same mats, etc. yes, some might have more mirrors, more plasmas, more mirrors and more windows, but those features have nothing to do with improving the strength and conditioning of the team. now those other schools may have more and/or better strength and conditioning coaches, but that is another matter altogether and has nothing to do with "inferior facilities" and how they somehow are a cause of the poor showing on the field.

A-Tex Devil
11-15-2007, 11:04 PM
nothing. that is what is so ridiculous about all of these people posting about how bad duke's facilities even though they have never seen the inside of a gym -- nevermind the inside of a d1 gym. they all have the same benches, the same plates, same bars, same tables, same mats, etc. yes, some might have more mirrors, more plasmas, more mirrors and more windows, but those features have nothing to do with improving the strength and conditioning of the team. now those other schools may have more and/or better strength and conditioning coaches, but that is another matter altogether and has nothing to do with "inferior facilities" and how they somehow are a cause of the poor showing on the field.

Inferior facilities have nothing to do directly with performance on the field. I'll grant that. But we will continue to have recruiting problems based on what we offer when compared to the schools we compete against. Facilites aren't nearly the biggest problem with the program either -- lack of dynamic and creative [self-redacted] is the main problem in my mind.

But facilities (and I don't really mean stadium or bathrooms or fan amenities, I mean locker rooms, rec room, weight room, practice facilities, tape rooms etc.) are an achilles heel at Duke and a very real part of the recruiting wars which along with superior coaching, leads to results on the field.

I admit to never having been inside Yoh, but I've walked by it and seen how big it is, read plenty about and seen plenty of pretty pictures. However I have seen UT's facilities and TCU's facilities up close and personal and they both have things both in substance and style that Duke just doesn't have. Indoor practice facilities, massive weight rooms that dwarf Duke's, huge entertainment rooms for the players to hang out in, state of the art tape rooms. Duke has a lot of these things to some extent, but as I mentioned, ours are medium range missiles compared to most schools ICBMs. There is a difference, a wow factor so to speak. Put it this way -- I can get steak at Outback or at Smith & Wollensky, but if you are giving it to me for free, I'll take the latter.

I don't know if we have the cash/donations to upgrade or keep up. I know I give what little I can. But the importance of player facilities to recruiting, and in some regards, player development, is real. Ask any football coach in the country. If we can't compete in that regard, we'll continue to struggle in recruiting. If we struggle in recruiting, without a more effective "system" to be diplomatic, we'll continue to see the results we've been seeing.

JDSBlueDevl
11-15-2007, 11:49 PM
Wake me the next time Shane posts on TDD or when Jason Williams' mother posts on IC. The list of people who are very close to the Duke program who post to this board is getting really long.

Oh, how cute, treating TDD like it's an unwanted bastard child. Sure, the basketball folks might not post over there, but the FOOTBALL folks do. I can name quite a few who have historically: Eli Nichols' dad and Mike Schneider's brother, to name a couple. Hell, Schneider's brother is one of the CHEERLEADERS in overhauling the Duke football program. So don't give me this "TDD is unconnected and stupid" crap, because it does have connections. Why is it I see Mike Corey posting over there more often than here? Hmm... If this thread doesn't demonstrate how dark the dark-blue glasses that people here are wearing are, then nothing will. I will respect a fan, but not a downright, obnoxious HOMER! That's why I can't stand Bob Harris when he does football games.

JDSBlueDevl
11-16-2007, 12:06 AM
A very small bit of "censorship" raises the level of discourse dramatically.

Most people who write to say "Fire Roof!" offer no new insights.

That's because it's the same old story about SOSADs (Same-Old Sorry-*** Duke).

They can't tackle.
They can't penetrate.
They can't lock down on receivers.
They can't protect the QB.
They can't run.
They don't have a consistent running game.
They make stupid penalties.
THEY HAVE NOT ACCEPTED JESUS CHRIST AS THEIR LORD AND PERSONAL SAVIOR!
They lollygag to the 50, they lollygag to the sidelines, they lollygag to the huddle! You know what that makes them? That's right, lollygaggers. And whose fault is that?

The last two were just movie references, but the point remains: Ted Roof is responsible for every aspect of the game. And in nearly every aspect, Duke has not shown consistency. If you want Roof to be responsible for the victories, you better well make him responsible for the defeats. The fact that this smells of the situation with Jim Tracy just before he was axed by the Pittsburgh Pirates disgusts me, in that the mediot apologists just keep tripping over their #$% to "give the boy a chance".

BTW, just go ahead and try to censor my sig, which I've had for a couple months now.

DU82
11-16-2007, 07:03 AM
no. thinking that bathrooms and food quality at ww have anything to do with the quality of duke football is a ridiculous concept, not even in the range of being relevant.

honestly, i couldn't care in the least about the bathrooms and food when i go to a sporting event. it's more or less expected that the bathrooms will be disgusting and i don't usually go to sporting events looking to fulfill my hunger needs. a basketball game is 2 hours and a football game is 3 hours. how hard is it to plan accordingly and not have an uncontrolled urge to chow down? it is besides me why this keeps on coming up in the context of what duke has to do to improve in football.

I do not believe that I have said anything connecting the basic facilities I'm mentioning to the quality of Duke Football. (It does relate to the overall enjoyability of attending games.) I do expect bathrooms that are better than "disgusting" and I do enjoy a basic drink (diet Coke for me) at a game. This thread is generally about improving facilities, some have linked the facilities to a better football team (especially the posts about the Yoh center.) Regarding "chowing down" it's about entertainment. I guess based on your posts, you don't mind when you go to a movie (if you do) that your feet stick to the floor, the bathrooms are flooded, and I guess you don't order any popcorn or drinks for during the movie.

Watching a show on MSNBC on McDonald's, one of the owners/managers featured said that the first thing customers notice is the bathrooms. Admittedly, there's more competition for the food dollar there than there is for the entertainment dollar at Duke, but there's a connection.

formerdukeathlete
11-16-2007, 07:22 AM
Inferior facilities have nothing to do directly with performance on the field. I'll grant that. But we will continue to have recruiting problems based on what we offer when compared to the schools we compete against. Facilites aren't nearly the biggest problem with the program either -- lack of dynamic and creative [self-redacted] is the main problem in my mind.

But facilities (and I don't really mean stadium or bathrooms or fan amenities, I mean locker rooms, rec room, weight room, practice facilities, tape rooms etc.) are an achilles heel at Duke and a very real part of the recruiting wars which along with superior coaching, leads to results on the field.

I admit to never having been inside Yoh, but I've walked by it and seen how big it is, read plenty about and seen plenty of pretty pictures. However I have seen UT's facilities and TCU's facilities up close and personal and they both have things both in substance and style that Duke just doesn't have. Indoor practice facilities, massive weight rooms that dwarf Duke's, huge entertainment rooms for the players to hang out in, state of the art tape rooms. Duke has a lot of these things to some extent, but as I mentioned, ours are medium range missiles compared to most schools ICBMs. There is a difference, a wow factor so to speak. Put it this way -- I can get steak at Outback or at Smith & Wollensky, but if you are giving it to me for free, I'll take the latter.

I don't know if we have the cash/donations to upgrade or keep up. I know I give what little I can. But the importance of player facilities to recruiting, and in some regards, player development, is real. Ask any football coach in the country. If we can't compete in that regard, we'll continue to struggle in recruiting. If we struggle in recruiting, without a more effective "system" to be diplomatic, we'll continue to see the results we've been seeing.

The one thing which strikes me about Yoh is how it is squished behind the swimming building and Wade, limiting windows on lower floors, etc. It is an 18 million, would not call it sunk, however, built in, structural, fixed-cost facility of the Football team and we may have to presume that this will be what we use for years. If Yoh were built elsewhere, presumably it would have been designed differently, without the constaints of the footprint dictated by the limited available land, and quite possibly could have been a larger facility for the same money.

At the time Yoh was constructed perhaps more inspired thinking would have considered the contruction of the football building in the context of other longer range athletics department needs, which included an assessment of whether Wade works or can be made to work. Perhaps at that time, folks might have considered locating the facilty further away from the existing complex, as an achor to new projects down the road, with more windows, parking, etc.

What one would hope at this point is that Yoh is adequate and can be maintained at an adequate level, that the bones of the facility are adequate and that some renovations can maintain, improve the function and that aesthetic over time.

RepoMan
11-16-2007, 07:39 AM
BTW, just go ahead and try to censor my sig, which I've had for a couple months now.

Anger management?

Bluedawg
11-16-2007, 08:57 AM
nothing. that is what is so ridiculous about all of these people posting about how bad duke's facilities even though they have never seen the inside of a gym -- nevermind the inside of a d1 gym. they all have the same benches, the same plates, same bars, same tables, same mats, etc. yes, some might have more mirrors, more plasmas, more mirrors and more windows, but those features have nothing to do with improving the strength and conditioning of the team. now those other schools may have more and/or better strength and conditioning coaches, but that is another matter altogether and has nothing to do with "inferior facilities" and how they somehow are a cause of the poor showing on the field.

This opens a door to a question I've been pondering. Who hires the strength and conditioning coach? Is it the AD, the Head Coach? Duke's has been here since 1980 which means he was hired under the tenure of "Red" Wilson [1979 to 1982] and is now serving his 5th head coach (http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/List_of_Duke_University_people_-_Notable_faculty_and_staff/id/5238314).

I have questioned the team's strength and conditioning throughout this season. Are we looking at the wrong spot?

Bluedawg
11-16-2007, 09:02 AM
But facilities (and I don't really mean stadium or bathrooms or fan amenities, I mean locker rooms, rec room, weight room, practice facilities, tape rooms etc.) are an achilles heel at Duke and a very real part of the recruiting wars which along with superior coaching, leads to results on the field.

I admit to never having been inside Yoh, but I've walked by it and seen how big it is, read plenty about and seen plenty of pretty pictures. However I have seen UT's facilities and TCU's facilities up close and personal and they both have things both in substance and style that Duke just doesn't have. Indoor practice facilities, massive weight rooms that dwarf Duke's, huge entertainment rooms for the players to hang out in, state of the art tape rooms.

Let's see...you have never seen Duke's but you know how they stack up to other schools? maybe through osmoses as you "walked by it?"

Bluedawg
11-16-2007, 09:10 AM
The one thing which strikes me about Yoh is how it is squished behind the swimming building and Wade, limiting windows on lower floors, etc. It is an 18 million, would not call it sunk, however, built in, structural, fixed-cost facility of the Football team and we may have to presume that this will be what we use for years. If Yoh were built elsewhere, presumably it would have been designed differently, without the constaints of the footprint dictated by the limited available land, and quite possibly could have been a larger facility for the same money.

At the time Yoh was constructed perhaps more inspired thinking would have considered the contruction of the football building in the context of other longer range athletics department needs, which included an assessment of whether Wade works or can be made to work. Perhaps at that time, folks might have considered locating the facilty further away from the existing complex, as an achor to new projects down the road, with more windows, parking, etc.
What one would hope at this point is that Yoh is adequate and can be maintained at an adequate level, that the bones of the facility are adequate and that some renovations can maintain, improve the function and that aesthetic over time.

Yoh is the Football center which houses the locker rooms. How far away from the stadium would you have put it?

RPS
11-16-2007, 11:25 AM
As far as i can tell, the fact that the stadium is in need of upgrading is the only rationale I've seen for people to say that "no one is in charge or cares." Is that truly the foundation of your claim or is there some other basis.I'm tempted simply to say "Read the thread." WW was a poor college football venue when I arrived in Durham in the 1970s, and it's much worse now (and in comparison to the competition it's simply horrendous). Duke's unwillingness to make the stadium remotely passable (much less competitive) makes the case with nothing more needed. But the problem is much deeper than that. It is neither expensive nor complicated to impliment a parking plan to make sense, or to plan sufficiently so that there's enough water on a hot day or that there's not a noon kick-off on a summer Saturday without television. If someone competent is in charge and cares, those things don't happen. But the game day "experience" is screwed up at virtually every level. Fixing that experience alone won't make Duke competitive (I laid out the overall issues in more detail here (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18816&postcount=22) last February), but it would at least show that somebody in a position of leadership gives a hoot.


Do you know how much work it takes to actually put on a game?Not so much that virtually every other D1 school (and most D1AA, D2 and D3 schools) doesn't do a way better job than we do. I've been to a different college football venue virtually every Saturday this fall and every single one did a much better job than Duke does (without even factoring in WW). What's that say, y'think?

formerdukeathlete
11-16-2007, 11:41 AM
Yoh is the Football center which houses the locker rooms. How far away from the stadium would you have put it?

http://maps.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTExNmIycG51BF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEc2VjA2ZwLWJ1 dHRvbgRzbGsDbGluaw--#mvt=h&q1=615%20Chapel%20Drive,%20Durham,%20NC&trf=0&lon=-78.93827&lat=35.992938&mag=3

In effect expanding the footprint of the athletic complex. There appears to be plenty of land. Down the road, additional facilties might have been located contiguous to such a situated football building.

fan345678
11-16-2007, 11:57 AM
no. herein lies the problem. you actually equate poor coaching with bathrooms, the tailgating, the parking and the mere "adequacy" of the Yoh Center. this isn't complicated. poor coaching is a MAJOR problem with the football team. not nice bathrooms at ww are COMPLETELY irrelevant and the more people continue to site them as a problem the more the real issues get obfuscated. have you been to a game at wrigley or fenway? they are both utter dumps of stadiums. they also don't seem to deter people from attending and, in the case of boston, fielding a good team.

Just because I use certain words in the same paragraph, or even sentence, does not mean I am equating the various things represented by those words.

initial symptoms: decrepit facilities, apathy toward fan comforts, unorganized gameday logistics

progressive symptoms: inability to attract fans, inability to attract interest from high quality coaches, inability to consistently draw high-profile recruits

diagnosis: administrative apathy

Metaphorically speaking:

Building the Yoh Center was a good start, and it showed interest for a little while. However, you shouldn't stop your antibiotic regimen halfway through.

Also, coaching is definitely a problem, but you're not gonna get a good coach when it's obvious that the school isn't going to show consistent commitment to improvement. If the only seat available on the subway is beside a guy who's sniffling, sneezing, and hacking up phlegm nonstop, it doesn't matter how nice his tie is; you probably ought to keep standing for a little while.

budwom
11-16-2007, 12:31 PM
Thank you so much to RPS and Fan345678 who have stuck with the point of the original assertion, which is that no one seems to be in charge and no one cares. You've articulated precisely why we have a problem.

No, people don't go to a football game in order to inspect the bathrooms, but I can tell you that a female friend was at a recent game and found zero toilet paper in the bathroom. This is the inexcusably stupid kind of negligence which leads loyal fans to believe (and this woman is extraordinarily loyal) that no one is paying attention to their needs.

fan345678
11-16-2007, 12:54 PM
no. herein lies the problem. you actually equate poor coaching with bathrooms, the tailgating, the parking and the mere "adequacy" of the Yoh Center. this isn't complicated. poor coaching is a MAJOR problem with the football team. not nice bathrooms at ww are COMPLETELY irrelevant and the more people continue to site them as a problem the more the real issues get obfuscated. have you been to a game at wrigley or fenway? they are both utter dumps of stadiums. they also don't seem to deter people from attending and, in the case of boston, fielding a good team.

Also, if this were a thread about why Cameron should be preserved, then your points about Wrigley and Fenway are cogent. The age and relative shortcomings of Cameron don't matter because Duke puts a superior, well-managed product on the court, and even in down seasons (and the Cubs have had a few of those), the fans still know that they are appreciated. Unfortunately, unlike the Sox, Cubs, and Duke hoops, Duke football has been bad for so long (with only a few good years) that there exists no relationship with the fans that can sustain interest and optimism through tough times.

If you've seen Bull Durham, think of the scene in which Crash (Kevin Costner) accosts Nuke (Tim Robbins) for having fungus on his shower shoes. Crash's line goes like this: "Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes. Think classy, you'll be classy. If you win 20 in the show, you can let the fungus grow back and the press'll think you're colorful. Until you win 20 in the show, however, it means you are a slob."

OZZIE4DUKE
11-16-2007, 01:11 PM
It is neither expensive nor complicated to impliment a parking plan to make sense

Other than BudWom's initial point of not opening the parking lots early enough on game day, football parking at Duke is no different, no worse than at 98% of other football venues. I was in Athens, GA last week and drove by the football field - the public street passed directly in front of one of the main gates and next to the side wall of the stadium, separated only by a 5' wide sidewalk. I actually thought about what a nightmare it must be during football games, and how far would people have to walk to get to the stadium? Unless you build a stadium and surround it with tens of thousands of parking spaces, like say the Meadowlands Arena in NJ, parking is always going to be a b*tch. NC State has the fairgrounds for parking, but part of that land now houses the RBC Center. Parking in chapel hill for a carolina game? Fagetaboutit! Back in the 70's when we (my family) were Miami Dolphin season ticket holders, we'd park in people's yards for $10/car and walk half a mile+ to get to the Orange Bowl (those folks depended on the tax free income generated by the Dolphin and Hurricane games).

Parking at Duke is tight 24/7. As long as they have sufficient Iron Duke parking for season ticket holders, and a 5 or 10 minute walk is all it takes, you'll have no complaints out of me on this issue. Bathrooms, concession stands, aluminum bench seats, yeah, there are issues.

A word on the food offerings at WW. They are much better now than they were 5 years ago. Better quality, better variety. The steak and cheese sandwiches from that free-standing wagon are excellent. And now that they offer Chic Fil A sandwiches and Domino's Pizza, among other things, what more could you ask for? Even the hot dogs are better. And that place that sells fresh fried chicken near the main gate, it looks and smells wonderful (although I've never had it).

Bluedawg
11-16-2007, 02:47 PM
http://maps.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTExNmIycG51BF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEc2VjA2ZwLWJ1 dHRvbgRzbGsDbGluaw--#mvt=h&q1=615%20Chapel%20Drive,%20Durham,%20NC&trf=0&lon=-78.93827&lat=35.992938&mag=3

In effect expanding the footprint of the athletic complex. There appears to be plenty of land. Down the road, additional facilties might have been located contiguous to such a situated football building.

Down the road...? Where would you suggest the team go during halftime, use as a locker room? Down the road?

Lavabe
11-16-2007, 02:53 PM
Love the avatar, Ozzie!
Perhaps one with GTHC, GTH is in the offing?
Cheers,
Lavabe

RPS
11-16-2007, 02:59 PM
Other than BudWom's initial point of not opening the parking lots early enough on game day, football parking at Duke is no different, no worse than at 98% of other football venues.You're right in that a school can only do what the situation allows. But it still ought to do the best that it can under the circumstances. Opening the gates early happens everywhere I've ever been but Duke. Doing so just makes sense -- folks get to have some fun, and the more who arrive early the more that traffic problems closer to kick-off can be mitigated.

jlear
11-16-2007, 03:09 PM
You're right in that a school can only do what the situation allows. But it still ought to do the best that it can under the circumstances. Opening the gates early happens everywhere I've ever been but Duke. Doing so just makes sense -- folks get to have some fun, and the more who arrive early the more that traffic problems closer to kick-off can be mitigated.

I think this situation improved this year...

FROM THE WALLACE WADE STADIUM GAMEDAY GUIDE:
Hours:
Iron Dukes parking lots will be open FIVE hours prior to kickoff.
All other parking lots will be open FOUR hours prior to kickoff.

budwom
11-16-2007, 03:16 PM
Other than BudWom's initial point of not opening the parking lots early enough on game day, football parking at Duke is no different, no worse than at 98% of other football venues. I was in Athens, GA last week and drove by the football field - the public street passed directly in front of one of the main gates and next to the side wall of the stadium, separated only by a 5' wide sidewalk. I actually thought about what a nightmare it must be during football games, and how far would people have to walk to get to the stadium? Unless you build a stadium and surround it with tens of thousands of parking spaces, like say the Meadowlands Arena in NJ, parking is always going to be a b*tch. NC State has the fairgrounds for parking, but part of that land now houses the RBC Center. Parking in chapel hill for a carolina game? Fagetaboutit! Back in the 70's when we (my family) were Miami Dolphin season ticket holders, we'd park in people's yards for $10/car and walk half a mile+ to get to the Orange Bowl (those folks depended on the tax free income generated by the Dolphin and Hurricane games).

Parking at Duke is tight 24/7. As long as they have sufficient Iron Duke parking for season ticket holders, and a 5 or 10 minute walk is all it takes, you'll have no complaints out of me on this issue. Bathrooms, concession stands, aluminum bench seats, yeah, there are issues.

A word on the food offerings at WW. They are much better now than they were 5 years ago. Better quality, better variety. The steak and cheese sandwiches from that free-standing wagon are excellent. And now that they offer Chic Fil A sandwiches and Domino's Pizza, among other things, what more could you ask for? Even the hot dogs are better. And that place that sells fresh fried chicken near the main gate, it looks and smells wonderful (although I've never had it).


Actually, Ozzie, I think parking is much worse. Even though I have an assigned parking lot, each time I go to a game, it seems like there's a different "system" in place, none of which seems to involve much thought. At the last game, for example, cars proceeded up Wannamaker, and then turned into their respective lots once the attendant for each lot checked for the appropriate parking pass, and then removed the cones to allow for entry into the lot. As I moved up the street (and I did this twice, which is another story) I can't tell you how many times all the traffic stopped because the young guys manning the cones were paying no attention whatsoever. We had a good laugh in our car, because we're so used to this dysfunctionality. We had to lower the window and call out to Cone Man to stop staring up into space and start paying attention to his job. Every time one lot attendant spaced out (which happened often from what I could see) NO cars could move. Simply amazing.

I know this may sounds like nitpicking, but it is so symptomatic of what I see every time I attend a Duke game. I attend games at other places, and the basic plan there seems to be that there is an organized effort to move you as quickly as possible into a parking space. Nothing flashy, but swift and effective.

Bluedawg
11-16-2007, 03:31 PM
I'm tempted simply to say "Read the thread." WW was a poor college football venue when I arrived in Durham in the 1970s, and it's much worse now (and in comparison to the competition it's simply horrendous). Duke's unwillingness to make the stadium remotely passable (much less competitive) makes the case with nothing more needed. But the problem is much deeper than that. It is neither expensive nor complicated to impliment a parking plan to make sense, or to plan sufficiently so that there's enough water on a hot day or that there's not a noon kick-off on a summer Saturday without television. If someone competent is in charge and cares, those things don't happen. But the game day "experience" is screwed up at virtually every level. Fixing that experience alone won't make Duke competitive (I laid out the overall issues in more detail here (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18816&postcount=22) last February), but it would at least show that somebody in a position of leadership gives a hoot.

Not so much that virtually every other D1 school (and most D1AA, D2 and D3 schools) doesn't do a way better job than we do. I've been to a different college football venue virtually every Saturday this fall and every single one did a much better job than Duke does (without even factoring in WW). What's that say, y'think?


i read that, a couple of times...thought it was weak then and still do.

You listed:
Academics. Duke is there.
Facilities. There is a plan in place to upgrade it…maybe not on your time table, but it is there.
Coaching Staff I still support TR,
Fan Support. For a 1-21 school 13-15,000 in a 34,000 stadium isn’t bad. not great, but isn't bad.
Student Support. ditto
Faculty Support. This has always been a problem at Duke but how can you blame athletics?
Attention. Kids love attention. I’ve seen TR interact with the recruits..
Tradition. Have you bothered to read the sign around the field?
Being Competitive. TR found a very non competitive team, and correcting thst takes time. Again , I realize this is not on your time table but TR is working on it.
Other Good Talent. Here are the Duke 2007 Football Commitments. (http://rivals100.rivals.com/commitlist.asp?Year=2007&School=19) Quite a few 2 and 3 star players. Again, this is a process that will not happen overnight.
Fun. Winning is fun, losing is not. That’s life. have you asked any of these kids if they are having fun?
Playing on Sundays. ??

Like I said...weak!

To constantly accuse people who work the long hours these guys do of being non-caring is irresponsible. A lot of work ahs gone on over the past 3 years to correct the problems left by Franks. TR has said that one of his first jobs was to get the administration on board...and progress is being made. If you know a better way then why not contact the administration/transportation and discuss it with them….but that’s a bit harder isn’t it.

Bluedawg
11-16-2007, 03:38 PM
Duke's unwillingness to make the stadium remotely passable (much less competitive) makes the case with nothing more needed.

And with the plans now in affect, this statement is totally untrue.

OZZIE4DUKE
11-16-2007, 03:40 PM
i
Other Good Talent. Here are the Duke 2007 Football Commitments. (http://rivals100.rivals.com/commitlist.asp?Year=2007&School=19) Quite a few 2 and 3 star players. Again, this is a process that will not happen overnight.

Do you, or does anyone, have a link to a list of this year's current commitments (who can't sign until February 2008)? From a meeting I attended last week, we have 12 commits, looking for 3 more. 15 is our limit of available scholly's this year. I understand the coaches are very high on the DB's who will be coming next year.

Bluedawg
11-16-2007, 03:41 PM
Other than BudWom's initial point of not opening the parking lots early enough on game day, football parking at Duke is no different, no worse than at 98% of other football venues. I was in Athens, GA last week and drove by the football field - the public street passed directly in front of one of the main gates and next to the side wall of the stadium, separated only by a 5' wide sidewalk. I actually thought about what a nightmare it must be during football games, and how far would people have to walk to get to the stadium? Unless you build a stadium and surround it with tens of thousands of parking spaces, like say the Meadowlands Arena in NJ, parking is always going to be a b*tch. NC State has the fairgrounds for parking, but part of that land now houses the RBC Center. Parking in chapel hill for a carolina game? Fagetaboutit! Back in the 70's when we (my family) were Miami Dolphin season ticket holders, we'd park in people's yards for $10/car and walk half a mile+ to get to the Orange Bowl (those folks depended on the tax free income generated by the Dolphin and Hurricane games).

Parking at Duke is tight 24/7. As long as they have sufficient Iron Duke parking for season ticket holders, and a 5 or 10 minute walk is all it takes, you'll have no complaints out of me on this issue. Bathrooms, concession stands, aluminum bench seats, yeah, there are issues.

A word on the food offerings at WW. They are much better now than they were 5 years ago. Better quality, better variety. The steak and cheese sandwiches from that free-standing wagon are excellent. And now that they offer Chic Fil A sandwiches and Domino's Pizza, among other things, what more could you ask for? Even the hot dogs are better. And that place that sells fresh fried chicken near the main gate, it looks and smells wonderful (although I've never had it).

Doesn't parking open 4 hours before kickoff? How much longer should it be?

i agree with you, and i'm gald someone is seeing though the fog they are trying to create here. When a stadium is on campus you have parking issues.

Bluedawg
11-16-2007, 03:45 PM
Do you, or does anyone, have a link to a list of this year's current commitments (who can't sign until February 2008)? From a meeting I attended last week, we have 12 commits, looking for 3 more. 15 is our limit of available scholly's this year. I understand the coaches are very high on the DB's who will be coming next year.

Same site, http://duke.rivals.com/commitlist.asp, just change the year to 2008.

OZZIE4DUKE
11-16-2007, 03:46 PM
Doesn't parking open 4 hours before kickoff? How much longer should it be?



BudWom's beef goes back to last season (or was it the year before), when our tailgate was delayed because no one could/would open the gate on Wanamaker, even though we had specific conversations with the Iron Duke office earlier in the week and had assurances that it would be open by a certain time, which it wasn't. There was no problem this year as you noted, other than the 12:00 noon game start time which severely cut down on the beer drinking time before the game. Ah, the breakfast of champions!

Bluedawg
11-16-2007, 03:52 PM
BudWom's beef goes back to last season (or was it the year before), when our tailgate was delayed because no one could/would open the gate on Wanamaker, even though we had specific conversations with the Iron Duke office earlier in the week and had assurances that it would be open by a certain time, which it wasn't. There was no problem this year as you noted, other than the 12:00 noon game start time which severely cut down on the beer drinking time before the game. Ah, the breakfast of champions!

So is was corrected, and yet they still complain? Thus the "fog" they are trying to put out.

budwom
11-16-2007, 04:01 PM
So is was corrected, and yet they still complain? Thus the "fog" they are trying to put out.

Bluedawg, your ongoing inability or unwillingness to actually read and absorb what others have to say is formidable.

RPS
11-16-2007, 04:52 PM
You listed:
Academics. Duke is there.I agree.

Facilities. There is a plan in place to upgrade it…maybe not on your time table, but it is there.I will applaud them when it's done for the progress, but will they be competitive? I don't expect us to compete with Florida State, but check out what they've done and are building at Wake, or the renovations at Stanford. How does the Duke plan compare?

Coaching Staff I still support TR, I hope he gets the job done.

Fan Support. For a 1-21 school 13-15,000 in a 34,000 stadium isn’t bad. not great, but isn't bad.I disagree, but perhaps I'm too optimistic. Note, though, that Northwestern averaged over 30,000 even when they almost never won. Moreover, the huge percentage of opposition fans at WW skews the numbers.

Student Support. dittoI have a huge disagreement here. I've noted before that I think it's embarrassing that the student body at Duke supports the football team so poorly. For example, even in dark years, Wake students provided support for their team light-years ahead of Duke's.

Faculty Support. This has always been a problem at Duke but how can you blame athletics?I don't blame Athletics. I blame the administration (lacrosse, anyone?).

Attention. Kids love attention. I’ve seen TR interact with the recruits.You may be right. Time will tell (at least on an overall basis).

Tradition. Have you bothered to read the sign around the field?If you read my post you'll recall that I merely suggest that a school use whatever advantages they have as best they can. Obviously, football tradition doesn't simply appear overnight.

Being Competitive. TR found a very non competitive team, and correcting thst takes time. Again , I realize this is not on your time table but TR is working on it.Time will tell.

Other Good Talent. Here are the Duke 2007 Football Commitments. (http://rivals100.rivals.com/commitlist.asp?Year=2007&School=19) Quite a few 2 and 3 star players. Again, this is a process that will not happen overnight.Rome wasn't built in a day, I agree.

Fun. Winning is fun, losing is not. That’s life. have you asked any of these kids if they are having fun?No, but the transfer record suggests there may be a problem here.

Playing on Sundays. ??Every recruited D1 football player thinks he at least has a shot at "the League." It's no secret that a down program can offer playing time and exposure to increase the chances of playing on Sundays (mitigated by a potential lack of support, especially since football is the ultimate team game -- George Mason would never advance to the Final Four if the NCAA had the brains and the guts to go to a championship tournament format in football).


Like I said...weak!I realize you think that the evidence supports the idea that the Duke football program has wonderful support from an administration that really cares about its success. I say res ipsa loquitur.


To constantly accuse people who work the long hours these guys do of being non-caring is irresponsible. A lot of work ahs gone on over the past 3 years to correct the problems left by Franks.Please re-read my posts. I place far more blame upon the adinistration than upon TR. In many ways, his is a no-win situation.


TR has said that one of his first jobs was to get the administration on board...and progress is being made.If the program is as well supported as you allege, why should that be necessary?


If you know a better way then why not contact the administration/transportation and discuss it with them….I have, but perhaps you prefer assumptions and conjecture to facts.


...but that’s a bit harder isn’t it.Actually, no. I have no problem speaking up on issues important to the university I support. I love Duke, but I don't view it through rose-colored glasses, which seems to be a problem for some....

dukie8
11-16-2007, 05:37 PM
Thank you so much to RPS and Fan345678 who have stuck with the point of the original assertion, which is that no one seems to be in charge and no one cares. You've articulated precisely why we have a problem.

No, people don't go to a football game in order to inspect the bathrooms, but I can tell you that a female friend was at a recent game and found zero toilet paper in the bathroom. This is the inexcusably stupid kind of negligence which leads loyal fans to believe (and this woman is extraordinarily loyal) that no one is paying attention to their needs.

so let me get this straight. jason evans starts this thread to tell everyone that there is a moratorium on roof until after the football season. now you are thanking 2 other posters for having "stuck with the point of the original assertion" even though their posts have nothing to do with what mr evans wrote?

dukie8
11-16-2007, 05:43 PM
Also, if this were a thread about why Cameron should be preserved, then your points about Wrigley and Fenway are cogent. The age and relative shortcomings of Cameron don't matter because Duke puts a superior, well-managed product on the court, and even in down seasons (and the Cubs have had a few of those), the fans still know that they are appreciated. Unfortunately, unlike the Sox, Cubs, and Duke hoops, Duke football has been bad for so long (with only a few good years) that there exists no relationship with the fans that can sustain interest and optimism through tough times.

If you've seen Bull Durham, think of the scene in which Crash (Kevin Costner) accosts Nuke (Tim Robbins) for having fungus on his shower shoes. Crash's line goes like this: "Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes. Think classy, you'll be classy. If you win 20 in the show, you can let the fungus grow back and the press'll think you're colorful. Until you win 20 in the show, however, it means you are a slob."

no. pointing out the fact that both wrigley and fenway are utter dumps but still draw huge crowds who don't complain about the bathrooms and food is entirely relevant to the ww discussion. contrary to what you believe, the cubs historically are a TERRIBLE team and people still show up in droves so stop blaming ww for the fact that duke's crowds are small. put a good product out there and people will show up. they did with spurrier.

i think cis is a great venue so i'm not sure what your issue is there. it's intimate, it's clean, parking is a breeze and even the worst seat in the house is close to the court. is the food not up to snuff where you would like it to be?

dukerev
11-16-2007, 06:35 PM
I think it a bit of a straw man to compare the crowds at Fenway and Wrigley to Wally Wade. Those places are both historical icons. There are as many people who go to Fenway because it has been in a movie as who went to see the Sox play (before they were good). Now that they win World Series, it isn't even worth comparing them. People show up by the droves at Wrigley because you can skip work and drink beer in the afternoon. Plus, it, too has been in the movies (who can forget The Blues Brothers?) and the Cubs are in some ways America's Team because they're always on WGN. Duke football has none of those things. Maybe the answer isn't to put a good football team on the field, but to get Wally Wade and Duke football in blockbuster movie (Something like Bull Durham II). Then folks would come for the cache. But I'd rather see our Devils have a good football team.

throatybeard
11-16-2007, 07:20 PM
no. pointing out the fact that both wrigley and fenway are utter dumps but still draw huge crowds who don't complain about the bathrooms and food is entirely relevant to the ww discussion. contrary to what you believe, the cubs historically are a TERRIBLE team and people still show up in droves so stop blaming ww for the fact that duke's crowds are small. put a good product out there and people will show up. they did with spurrier.

i think cis is a great venue so i'm not sure what your issue is there. it's intimate, it's clean, parking is a breeze and even the worst seat in the house is close to the court. is the food not up to snuff where you would like it to be?

I've been to the toilet in Wrigley. (Beer makes that happen). It's nowhere near as bad as Wade.

DU82
11-16-2007, 07:26 PM
And with the plans now in affect, this statement is totally untrue.

You've mentioned this a few times. Is there specific information out in the public about this? Or, at least more than the couple of pictures in the football program? A link would be helpful.

Regarding the Yoh center, part of it is under ground level because of the tunnel entrance to WW. As you mentioned, do we want it out beyond the practice field, where we send the visiting team during halftime (always loved that!)

dukie8
11-16-2007, 07:31 PM
I've been to the toilet in Wrigley. (Beer makes that happen). It's nowhere near as bad as Wade.

there's no way that ww is any worse than wrigley. i've always loved this glimpse into it :)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dCfmI7gGEwY

dyedwab
11-16-2007, 08:46 PM
...but I'd like some evidence other than "people are working really hard at it."

Let me be clear. I support Coach Roof, and think our recruiting had improved greatly and their is a passion in our players that has been missing in some years. I like the fact that Fuqua is involved in studying a strategic plan for football program.

My question, to those saying that our facilities are fine and that the administration is supportive, etc. is the following. Why is our football program so historically bad?

I'm not expecting bowl after bowl, or, frankly, regular .500 seasons. But when 3 wins appears to be a Herculean task year after year after year, it suggests that this is a systematic problem about the university and administration in some way, not something specific to this coaching staff and this group of players. Clearly, roof and others understand that, because they have had the meeting of football alumni etc.

As an alum, the football situation pains me. Not because of the losses. But because it appears that Duke University does not do everything in its power to do the best it can at something.

JasonEvans
11-17-2007, 06:37 AM
so let me get this straight. jason evans starts this thread to tell everyone that there is a moratorium on roof until after the football season. now you are thanking 2 other posters for having "stuck with the point of the original assertion" even though their posts have nothing to do with what mr evans wrote?

I think it would be clear to just about everyone that this thread has morphed into something else at this point. I am confident that is what the esteemed budwom was talking about. I found his comment to be clear and obvious. Did you not follow the logic or were you just trying to be ornery?

--Jason "budwom is a legend to folks who have been around DBR for a long time-- if ya'll chase him away you'll feel my wrath :D " Evans

Bluedawg
11-17-2007, 07:21 AM
Bluedawg, your ongoing inability or unwillingness to actually read and absorb what others have to say is formidable.

All anyone has talked about is surface issues...granted, i agree that they issues need to be addressed and they are, but in all of the complaining that has gone on no one has listed anything of any substance, except me...


Who hires the strength and conditioning coach? Is it the AD, the Head Coach? Duke's has been here since 1980 which means he was hired under the tenure of "Red" Wilson [1979 to 1982] and is now serving his 5th head coach (http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/List_of_Duke_University_people_-_Notable_faculty_and_staff/id/5238314).

I have questioned the team's strength and conditioning throughout this season. Are we looking at the wrong spot?

This is something that actually affects the team's play and this everyone ignored to complain about facilities and how their "game day experience" is ruined because they didn't like how the hot dog stand looked.

now if i have missed something I'll be the first to admit it, so please show me where it was.

dukie8
11-17-2007, 07:42 AM
All anyone has talked about is surface issues...granted, i agree that they issues need to be addressed and they are, but in all of the complaining that has gone on no one has listed anything of any substance, except me...

This is something that actually affects the team's play and this everyone ignored to complain about facilities and how their "game day experience" is ruined because they didn't like how the hot dog stand looked.

now if i have missed something I'll be the first to admit it, so please show me where it was.

i'm not focusing on the surface issues and have been trying to get people to look beyond hot how the hot chocolate is! does anyone know anything about the strength and conditioning coach? the yankees hired some new clown this year with bizarre workouts. after the team suffered multiple injuries early this season from what appeared to be a lack of S&C, they fired him.

also, for all the people complaining and asking "who is in charge?" because so much of the game day experience is subpar to them. the answer is simple -- roof. it's not brodhead, alleva or anyone else who is directly responsible for all of those surface issues that people apparently get worked up over.

Bluedawg
11-17-2007, 07:46 AM
Facilities - I will applaud them when it's done for the progress, but will they be competitive? I don't expect us to compete with Florida State, but check out what they've done and are building at Wake, or the renovations at Stanford. How does the Duke plan compare?

This is a good example of the problems I have with some of the complaints on this thread. you have no idea what the plan is but you chose to complain anyway. Will it equal Stanford, FS, or even NCSU...no. Will Duke ever draw 50-60,000 football fans, no... And what do you mean by competitive. Duke does not need a SEC style stadium. but pictures I've seen look good.


Student Support. I have a huge disagreement here. I've noted before that I think it's embarrassing that the student body at Duke supports the football team so poorly. For example, even in dark years, Wake students provided support for their team light-years ahead of Duke's.

In a way I agree with you...could it be better...absolutely! is it as dismal as you make it sound...no.


Faculty Support..I don't blame Athletics. I blame the administration (lacrosse, anyone?).

Agree to a point but still not sure where you are going. I don't see how the admin can change years of conflict between athletics and academics. Although they have instituted a faculty adviser program to try and get more faculty involved in athletics to try and bridge that gap.


Tradition so this was a complaint with no foundation at duke?



Fun - No, but the transfer record suggests there may be a problem here.

Beyond TR's first year how many players have transferred?

Sorry...still can't understand your Playing on Sunday reference.


Originally Posted by Bluedawg
TR has said that one of his first jobs was to get the administration on board...and progress is being made.


If the program is as well supported as you allege, why should that be necessary?

What I'm referring to is during the TR era. What we are talking about is now...not then.


I have, but perhaps you prefer assumptions and conjecture to facts.

After reading your posts and reply i chucked when I saw this line.



Actually, no. I have no problem speaking up on issues important to the university I support. I love Duke, but I don't view it through rose-colored glasses, which seems to be a problem for some....

You also love to go fishing.

formerdukeathlete
11-17-2007, 07:59 AM
Down the road...? Where would you suggest the team go during halftime, use as a locker room? Down the road?

"down the road" referred to as time went on, rather than that the football building would have been located so far away that the ball players would have needed a shuttle to get to the stadium. Had the football building been located on the other side of wade, this would have impacted the practice field, certainly. However, if you study the areial photo, you can imagine where fields might be relocated, as well as where additional facilities might be situated should existing facilities be moved or new facilities built.

I believe as a result of Yoh the pool building lost its outdoor deck and window (sliding glass doors). Not that big of a deal, but just another effect.

Bluedawg
11-17-2007, 08:41 AM
I have, but perhaps you prefer assumptions and conjecture to facts.

let me clarify before someone skims over it and misconstrues

Yes! the facilities at Duke are a shamble and need to be repaired, but a plan is in place to do that so i don't understand what that is still a bone of contention. Then with plans in place the response is, "but they won't be good enough" which indicates that people re just looking for something to blame or complain about. I've called facilities a surface issues which it is. Granted, I've said it makes a difference, and ti does. but it is not the end all to a willing program.

My main problem with the posts on this thread is the comment that "no one cares" a comment with zero foundation and an equal amount of truth. Unless you know everyone involved you can't make that statement. i ask for proof to support that statement and I get "look at the facilities' which are going to be repaired. That fact alone proves the "no one cares" comment wrong!

People want to overlook the real issues. I've posted one of them, lack of conditioning. That needs to be looked at real hard.

A second one is Duke coaches stay an average of 4.5 years...overthe past 41 years Duke has had 9 [hope my math is correct]

"It's not a three-year or five-year commitment to turn that program around," said David Kelly, an assistant coach at Central Florida who worked for Roof at Duke in 2004 and '05. "It's going to be a 10-year commitment. People don't understand how close Duke is right now. Hopefully, the decision-makers do."

This year's junior class is Roof's first full recruiting class, and many started as freshmen. No team in the country played more freshmen than Duke in 2004 or 2005, 14 each season. Duke will have 17 starters back in 2008, led by quarterback Thaddeus Lewis, who will have two seasons of starting experience behind an offensive line that will not have to be rebuilt, something Roof had to do in each of his first three seasons. [source (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/776561.html)]

It takes time...the problem is Spurrier did it in 3 years, then bolted, so people think that every coach should do it in 3 year. However He obviously saw Duke as a stepping stone to a bigger school. and what he 'built" was so surface it couldn't last.

Is that the type coach you want or someone who says:
I want the opportunity to see this thing through.

You want someone who cares??? Ted Roof cares!

Bluedawg
11-17-2007, 09:00 AM
You've mentioned this a few times. Is there specific information out in the public about this? Or, at least more than the couple of pictures in the football program? A link would be helpful.

Someone on this board posted a picture that I'll try to find and post, but maybe this will be helpful:


If you've ever had trouble finding a restroom during a Duke football games at Wallace Wade Stadium, listen up: Help is on the way.
Duke athletics director Joe Alleva said Wallace Wade is due for a structural upgrade, a project that will include new restrooms and concessions areas.

"I hope we have the architectural plans for [stadium improvements] in the next year for sure," Alleva said this week. "Once we have that, we'll start raising the money. It all comes down to money."

Alleva said he wouldn't know how much the project would cost until plans are drawn. He hoped to have plans within the next year. Work couldn't begin without funds, though. Duke requires the athletics department to raise the money before construction begins.
Published: Sep 08, 2006
Duke, Wake build for future (http://www.newsobserver.com/122/story/483737.html)

Duke is designing architectural plans for a structural upgrade of Wallace Wade Stadium, including additional restrooms, concession stands and cosmetic improvements [source (http://www.footballfoundation.com/news.php?id=948)]

And there was a goduke.com one that I can't seem to find right now. Does this help?


Regarding the Yoh center, part of it is under ground level because of the tunnel entrance to WW. As you mentioned, do we want it out beyond the practice field, where we send the visiting team during halftime (always loved that!)

I'm glad you said that. To read that someone "walked by" and that told them it wasn't good enough doesn't fly. What they see on the concourse level is the 3rd floor which means there are two below ground.

Bluedawg
11-17-2007, 09:06 AM
"down the road" referred to as time went on, rather than that the football building would have been located so far away that the ball players would have needed a shuttle to get to the stadium. Had the football building been located on the other side of wade, this would have impacted the practice field, certainly. However, if you study the areial photo, you can imagine where fields might be relocated, as well as where additional facilities might be situated should existing facilities be moved or new facilities built..

Come on...please. I hope I am misreading you but are you advocating putting it where Brooks Field is now? Where would you relocate the practice field, the visiting teams LR? i expect more out of you.

Bluedawg
11-17-2007, 09:11 AM
Someone on this board posted a picture that I'll try to find and post

Found it. it was 1Dukie who located and posted it originally.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i279/1dukie/WWplans.jpg

YmoBeThere
11-17-2007, 09:14 AM
I had seen this before and 1 or 2 people have insisted on adding seats in place of the track. It looks like they have done so. If that happens, where do you put the track?

Bluedawg
11-17-2007, 09:22 AM
...but I'd like some evidence other than "people are working really hard at it."

Let me be clear. I support Coach Roof, and think our recruiting had improved greatly and their is a passion in our players that has been missing in some years. I like the fact that Fuqua is involved in studying a strategic plan for football program.

My question, to those saying that our facilities are fine and that the administration is supportive, etc. is the following. Why is our football program so historically bad?

I'm not expecting bowl after bowl, or, frankly, regular .500 seasons. But when 3 wins appears to be a Herculean task year after year after year, it suggests that this is a systematic problem about the university and administration in some way, not something specific to this coaching staff and this group of players. Clearly, roof and others understand that, because they have had the meeting of football alumni etc.

As an alum, the football situation pains me. Not because of the losses. But because it appears that Duke University does not do everything in its power to do the best it can at something.

From "What would make you happy? (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc_preview/story/682828.html)"


Ted Roof, head coach
THIS YEAR

"To have a significant improvement this year. To play an exciting brand of football that's fun to watch and fun to be a part of. To be a part of something that reflects the rest of the university, which is to be excellent. ... It's a three-prong mission. If you look at two of those three areas, community involvement and graduation rates, we are winning the national championship in those areas. The area we need to improve quickly is on the field. ... I think right now the goal is to win the next game."

IN FIVE YEARS

"I want to take this program as far as we can take it. ... I want to build a program that competes for bowl eligibility and championships. When you play in a conference like the ACC, it's all about competing."


Rchard H. Brodhead, University president

THIS YEAR

"Like all Duke football fans, I want to see an exciting team on the field. We're still going to be a young team. But we have a lot of talent, and with a year's added seasoning, I'm expecting we'll see some victories this year. As to academics, Duke sets very high standards and expectations."

IN FIVE YEARS

"Coach Roof's plan is that within five years we'll have a bowl-competitive team, and I look forward to seeing the team meet that goal. We're also looking for improvements to Wallace Wade [Stadium] to complement the rebirth of our program."

YmoBeThere
11-17-2007, 09:36 AM
You left out this part:


Chris Davis senior safety

THIS YEAR

"I want the turn to have come about. The winning to have started. The tradition to have started. I want to have been a part of the foundation for Duke getting it going."

Byrd Looper, former player, 1951-53

THIS YEAR/IN FIVE YEARS

"What would make me happy in 2007 would be for us to win three or four games. That would be the beginning of a possible turnaround. A must is a tangible, serious and aggressive indication from the Duke administration, the board, the president and other departments to make a commitment to winning again."<


Two games to go and 1) I have only see one game in person and will get to see the ND game today, but from what I have seen and heard, with the exception of a few weeks(3 in a row really, Navy, Miami, Wake) we haven't played an exciting brand of football, 2) and as Chris Davis notes "The winning to have started" is in serious jeopardy, 3) and tangible evidence of a commitment is still missing.

But then I am just repeating what has been said again and again.

Bluedawg
11-17-2007, 10:09 AM
You left out this part:

Only because the rules of the board says that you cannot reprint an entire article.

YmoBeThere
11-17-2007, 10:10 AM
Got it, well between the two us...

formerdukeathlete
11-17-2007, 12:17 PM
Come on...please. I hope I am misreading you but are you advocating putting it where Brooks Field is now? Where would you relocate the practice field, the visiting teams LR? i expect more out of you.

I suggest taking another look at an aerial photo of the exiting complex. Were, had ,the Yoh building been located adjacent to the open end of the stadium, then practice fields would had to have been expanded behind the buidling and away from the current athletic complex. Visting team locker rooms could have been rebuilt adjacent to the football building, or been incorporated into the structure.

DU82
11-17-2007, 08:51 PM
I suggest taking another look at an aerial photo of the exiting complex. Were, had ,the Yoh building been located adjacent to the open end of the stadium, then practice fields would had to have been expanded behind the buidling and away from the current athletic complex. Visting team locker rooms could have been rebuilt adjacent to the football building, or been incorporated into the structure.

By doing that, you would have pushed the practice field and field house into the side of the hill next to the Hart House, at best taking down most of the trees/screening between the football fields and the house. Besides it now being the president's residence, the namesake of this board would have objected to you messing with her family's house! What you suggest is not an option.

formerdukeathlete
11-18-2007, 08:37 AM
By doing that, you would have pushed the practice field and field house into the side of the hill next to the Hart House, at best taking down most of the trees/screening between the football fields and the house. Besides it now being the president's residence, the namesake of this board would have objected to you messing with her family's house! What you suggest is not an option.

http://maps.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTExNmIycG51BF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEc2VjA2ZwLWJ1 dHRvbgRzbGsDbGluaw--#mvt=h&q1=615%20Cameron%20Boulevard,%20Durham,%20NC&trf=0&lon=-78.941381&lat=35.99207&mag=3

Without knowing whether the orientation of the hybrid satellite photo is based on true north south, presuming it is, practice fields and additional facilities could be located east of the Duke Golf Club, west of Academcy, and wouth of Cameron. Land southeast of University would also be fairly close to the complex.

Bluedawg
11-18-2007, 05:10 PM
http://maps.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTExNmIycG51BF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEc2VjA2ZwLWJ1 dHRvbgRzbGsDbGluaw--#mvt=h&q1=615%20Cameron%20Boulevard,%20Durham,%20NC&trf=0&lon=-78.941381&lat=35.99207&mag=3

Without knowing whether the orientation of the hybrid satellite photo is based on true north south, presuming it is, practice fields and additional facilities could be located east of the Duke Golf Club, west of Academcy, and wouth of Cameron. Land southeast of University would also be fairly close to the complex.

I have looked at it and I have to agree with DU82 What you suggest is not an option.

Bluedawg
11-18-2007, 05:19 PM
...the problems this season were summed up nicely in today's N&O article by Luciana Chavez A lost opportunity (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/777474.html)

1 - Strength and Conditioning


The reality the Blue Devils are facing: Duke stayed close in games in the fourth quarter in five of its first six contests but hasn't managed it in the past five.

2 - Execution


Asked what has prevented Duke from turning the corner this season, Oghobaase tried to boil it down.

"In a nutshell ... ," he said, "it is a mix of a lot of things. But the big thing has really been the execution that we've been stressing all season long."

3 - Focus, just like against Wake Forest


...the Devils were in the game before stumbling out of it by giving up two Notre Dame touchdowns in the final 1:17 of the first half.

formerdukeathlete
11-18-2007, 10:35 PM
I have looked at it and I have to agree with DU82 What you suggest is not an option.

Is the land developed where I indicated?

DU82
11-18-2007, 11:02 PM
http://maps.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTExNmIycG51BF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEc2VjA2ZwLWJ1 dHRvbgRzbGsDbGluaw--#mvt=h&q1=615%20Cameron%20Boulevard,%20Durham,%20NC&trf=0&lon=-78.941381&lat=35.99207&mag=3

Without knowing whether the orientation of the hybrid satellite photo is based on true north south, presuming it is, practice fields and additional facilities could be located east of the Duke Golf Club, west of Academcy, and wouth of Cameron. Land southeast of University would also be fairly close to the complex.

First, the map does have north straight up. I believe all the Google/Yahoo etc. maps do, at least in the northern hemisphere.

But let me get this straight, you want the football team practice fields, and facilities across NC 751 (that's Cameron and Academy on the map) from the main university, further away from the stadium? That's even crazier than pushing it in the hill. Then again, I guess you want a whole new stadium there as well. Ain't going to happen. I doubt that the university would get clearance (ie permits) to build in that area, and the locals that are relatively close to that area would pitch a fit.

Look, the Yoh building isn't getting replaced. It's quite a nice facility, and remember that there's more to it than you can see from in front of it, or via a satellite photo. (BTW, at some point, you'll need to think in three dimensions, and that's going to be tough in that area.) We're not going to build a pork palace, like NC State, or anything remotely close to what FSU has.

DU82
11-18-2007, 11:06 PM
Saw the photoshopped images you linked to, those were the ones in the press guide earlier in the year. I was hoping for more details.

Bluedawg
11-19-2007, 07:45 AM
I had seen this before and 1 or 2 people have insisted on adding seats in place of the track. It looks like they have done so. If that happens, where do you put the track?

That is the million dollar question.

Bluedawg
11-19-2007, 07:49 AM
Saw the photoshopped images you linked to, those were the ones in the press guide earlier in the year. I was hoping for more details.

Sorry, that's all the links I had. however the construction fencing and signs are up on the concourse for the new bathrooms with an August 08 completion date, if that helps.

Bluedawg
11-19-2007, 07:59 AM
Is the land developed where I indicated?

Doesn't matter. It is not practical or feasible. Not an option nor a need. There is nothing wrong with Yoh.

Why are we so hung up on the facilities as the solution to what's wrong with the team? That is simply a surface issue that keeps the main issues on the back burner.

I have laid out three substantial area that need improvement and that could create an immediate upgrade in the performance of the team:


...
1 - Strength and Conditioning

2 - Execution

3 - Focus,

Would it not be better is we discussed substance?

budwom
11-19-2007, 08:15 AM
Bluedawg, at the risk of getting embroiled with you once again, may I point out that the original discussion point of this thread was the request by DBR that we NOT pile on Roof and the coaches during the season. We'll know soon enough if Roof retains his job.

Yes, there are many good points to be made about all the facets of our coaching (and I'm sure I agree with you about many of them), including the ones you mention above, but out of deference to DBR and the moderators, can we give it a rest until Roof's fate has been determined?

Let's see what Joe The Wily Sage of Methodist Flats Alleva has to say next Saturday, assuming he knows there's a football game against UNC that day...

formerdukeathlete
11-19-2007, 08:38 AM
First, the map does have north straight up. I believe all the Google/Yahoo etc. maps do, at least in the northern hemisphere.

But let me get this straight, you want the football team practice fields, and facilities across NC 751 (that's Cameron and Academy on the map) from the main university, further away from the stadium? That's even crazier than pushing it in the hill. Then again, I guess you want a whole new stadium there as well. Ain't going to happen. I doubt that the university would get clearance (ie permits) to build in that area, and the locals that are relatively close to that area would pitch a fit.

Look, the Yoh building isn't getting replaced. It's quite a nice facility, and remember that there's more to it than you can see from in front of it, or via a satellite photo. (BTW, at some point, you'll need to think in three dimensions, and that's going to be tough in that area.) We're not going to build a pork palace, like NC State, or anything remotely close to what FSU has.

I am not suggesting that Yoh be replaced. The bones of the facility should be adquate for years. What I would have done from an aesthetic standpoint, locating the building at the open end, of course is irrelevant at this point, except to say that the selection of the site for Yoh may not have been as "visionary" I would have liked, and that we need to do all that we can to help our athletic department in the long and short runs, including being "visionary."

In the mid 80s I received a call re the annual fund from a classmate who informed me that the trustees had approved a new b-ball venue to be built beside the golf course. I do not know the particulars of whether it was just the building committee which had approved and then K and Butters were then going before the entire Board, or what. K and Butters backed off as we know.

I do not aim to push the issue of whether Wade should be bulldozed rather than renovated, or whether the track should be removed now and relocated by the golf course. But, if some facilities were added down the road, then the locations I suggest could work as part of a Duke athletics complex "south." At some point we may very well need to construct such facilities.

RPS
11-19-2007, 08:55 AM
This is a good example of the problems I have with some of the complaints on this thread. you have no idea what the plan is but you chose to complain anyway.If you're going to criticize me, at least have the courtesy to be accurate as to my position. I have been clear that I haven't been inside Yoh and have not criticized it. I merely ask whether it's competitive. It doesn't matter if it's a fine facility but significantly inferior to the competition.


Sorry...still can't understand your Playing on Sunday reference.The NFL plays on Sundays....

Bluedawg
11-19-2007, 09:14 AM
Bluedawg, at the risk of getting embroiled with you once again, may I point out that the original discussion point of this thread was the request by DBR that we NOT pile on Roof and the coaches during the season. We'll know soon enough if Roof retains his job.

Yes, there are many good points to be made about all the facets of our coaching (and I'm sure I agree with you about many of them), including the ones you mention above, but out of deference to DBR and the moderators, can we give it a rest until Roof's fate has been determined?

Let's see what Joe The Wily Sage of Methodist Flats Alleva has to say next Saturday, assuming he knows there's a football game against UNC that day...

I don't think i was Piling on...in fact I'm probably his biggest supporter on this board. I've advocated for a 5th year and is still do.

Now look at my three. 2 of them are product of youth and inexperience. this is one of the youngest teams in D1 and that needs to be taken into account.

He has said that he has a 5 year program. I've said give him a chance and i still think so!

Bluedawg
11-19-2007, 09:17 AM
If you're going to criticize me, at least have the courtesy to be accurate as to my position. I have been clear that I haven't been inside Yoh and have not criticized it. I merely ask whether it's competitive. It doesn't matter if it's a fine facility but significantly inferior to the competition.

The NFL plays on Sundays....

I was using your comment as an example, which is what the comment "This is a good example of the problems..." was for. it was general....

Stray Gator
11-19-2007, 10:03 AM
...Let's see what Joe The Wily Sage of Methodist Flats Alleva has to say next Saturday, assuming he knows there's a football game against UNC that day...

If Sagacious Joe misses the game, I'm sure it would only happen because he has immersed himself in the stadium renovation planning process. I wonder if he'll arrange for the track to be replaced...with a 10' deep moat so that he can enjoy cruising around the field in his boat during games?

OZZIE4DUKE
11-19-2007, 11:33 AM
I wonder if he'll arrange for the track to be replaced...with a 10' deep moat so that he can enjoy cruising around the field in his boat during games?

Stray, did you get that line from Carlos?

budwom
11-19-2007, 11:51 AM
Ozzie, Stray is perfectly capable of finding the humorous side of Duke football by himself, as you well know. He's seen enough of it...

Moat: any chance we can stock it with some Gators, Stray?

Stray Gator
11-19-2007, 12:14 PM
Ozzie, Stray is perfectly capable of finding the humorous side of Duke football by himself, as you well know. He's seen enough of it...

Moat: any chance we can stock it with some Gators, Stray?

Well, they'd certainly feel at home. After all, the only Duke fans who can still be found in the stadium on Saturdays must have some pretty thick hides, and the brand of football that's being played by the home team sometimes appears to be the product of an evolutionary process that has long since ceased to advance... :D

cdhutch
11-19-2007, 03:15 PM
I had seen this before and 1 or 2 people have insisted on adding seats in place of the track. It looks like they have done so. If that happens, where do you put the track?

Apologies for joining the conversation late, and I hope this wasn't covered earlier.

I talked to the Men's Track Coach a couple of months ago and asked about the "new football addition." He said the model that exists in the Yoh Center and has been circulating around was poorly designed and in error. The Athletic Department spent a lot of money to redo the track a couple of years ago, and nothing is going to happen to it.

chrishoke
11-19-2007, 03:43 PM
Apologies for joining the conversation late, and I hope this wasn't covered earlier.

I talked to the Men's Track Coach a couple of months ago and asked about the "new football addition." He said the model that exists in the Yoh Center and has been circulating around was poorly designed and in error. The Athletic Department spent a lot of money to redo the track a couple of years ago, and nothing is going to happen to it.

Say what?

budwom
11-19-2007, 04:42 PM
The track coach will probably be the last to know anything. If (big if) they're spending millions to upgrade the stadium, a new track could be built elsewhere. No way this guy can stand in the way of the irresistible tsunami that is Duke football!

formerdukeathlete
11-19-2007, 05:02 PM
Apologies for joining the conversation late, and I hope this wasn't covered earlier.

I talked to the Men's Track Coach a couple of months ago and asked about the "new football addition." He said the model that exists in the Yoh Center and has been circulating around was poorly designed and in error. The Athletic Department spent a lot of money to redo the track a couple of years ago, and nothing is going to happen to it.

We understand that DUAA just redid the track surface, and that it is a nice surface. And, that this may be reason not to rip it out. On the other hand, the Fuqua study suggests that fan support can drive the success of the football program (and may be the sigle largest driver of such success).

In Cameron, fans are right up on the court, and very much in the game. At Wade, fans are many feet back from the action. As the Athletic Department looks, looked at improvements to Wade, and what might rekindle interest in the Football Program, it considered removal of the track. This is not a new idea. And leaving out the track in some renderings was not a "mistake."

If, hypothetically, an inportant benefactor said to Duke, I will give you $5 million toward the relocation of the track because I want to see the lowering of the field (a la 8 other BSD stadium renovation of the past - only one other BSD school still separates fans from the football field with a track), and seats brought right down to the field, I think Duke would accept the funds and get on with it.

Lavabe
11-19-2007, 05:36 PM
If, hypothetically, an inportant benefactor said to Duke, I will give you $5 million toward the relocation of the track because I want to see the lowering of the field (a la 8 other BSD stadium renovation of the past - only one other BSD school still separates fans from the football field with a track)

BSD=Berkeley Software Distribution?
BSD= Big School Division?

GO DAWGS!!! (Umm... that would be the Huskies, right DevilAlumna?)
Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Husky_Stadium)
Cheers,
Lavabe

Bluedawg
11-19-2007, 06:03 PM
Apologies for joining the conversation late, and I hope this wasn't covered earlier.

I talked to the Men's Track Coach a couple of months ago and asked about the "new football addition." He said the model that exists in the Yoh Center and has been circulating around was poorly designed and in error. The Athletic Department spent a lot of money to redo the track a couple of years ago, and nothing is going to happen to it.

Wallace Wade Stadium Renovations Include Track & Field Facility


A model of proposed renovations currently on display does not include a track surrounding the football playing field, but, according to director of athletics Joe Alleva, the example was intended to showcase the many proposed additions to the stadium and not the removal of the track surface.
published 07/18/2007 - Duke Sports Information

CameronBlue
11-19-2007, 06:05 PM
BSD=Berkeley Software Distribution?
BSD= Big School Division?



Booty Safety Detail according to legend. Founded years ago in the era of wooden bleachers to protect what we hold most dear, not far from the symbolic chalice. Close cousins to The Templars, circa 1973.

throatybeard
11-19-2007, 06:22 PM
That track is the butt of jokes at every other ACC school. If you can't understand why, go to Notre Dame, and you'll see how their 81K stadium is more intimate that out 34K stadium. It's got to go. Put track and field in a new facility. This school has more money than God.

Lavabe
11-19-2007, 06:23 PM
Booty Safety Detail according to legend. Founded years ago in the era of wooden bleachers to protect what we hold most dear, not far from the symbolic chalice. Close cousins to The Templars, circa 1973.

Thanks for clarifying. I was starting to think Bavarian Style Dark.;)

I like the moat idea ... does wonders for the rowing team.

FWIW, Husky Stadium holds 72,000 folks, largely sellouts, regardless of the track.

Cheers,
Lavabe

CameronBlue
11-19-2007, 06:31 PM
Thanks for clarifying. I was starting to think Bavarian Style Dark.;)

I like the moat idea ... does wonders for the rowing team.

FWIW, Husky Stadium holds 72,000 folks, largely sellouts, regardless of the track.

Cheers,
Lavabe

LOL. My post was kindof lame but if you suffered through 10+ football seasons on the old wooden bleachers as I did, you'll understand why Wally Wade has become the butt of all bad humor.

Stray Gator
11-19-2007, 06:37 PM
...[T]he Fuqua study suggests that fan support can drive the success of the football program (and may be the sigle [sic] largest driver of such success)....

Careful, there, FDA...when I suggested earlier in this thread that improving the quality of the gameday experience for fans through stadium facility enhancements might encourage greater attendance and fan support, which could in turn contribute to the improvement of the football program's on-the-field performance, I was informed by Dukie8 that "thinking that bathrooms and food quality at ww have anything to do with the quality of duke football is a ridiculous concept, not even in the range of being relevant." Furthermore, Dukie8 "do[es]n't think the level of fan support is very highly correlated with the success of a program," and believes that those of us who do are "part of the problem." You may want to reconsider your reliance on the Fuqua study, since it not only signifies that we are in agreement on something for once, but aligns you with a segment of the fan base that has been charcterized as "part of the problem." ;)

DU82
11-19-2007, 07:03 PM
Sorry, that's all the links I had. however the construction fencing and signs are up on the concourse for the new bathrooms with an August 08 completion date, if that helps.

My bladder thanks you for that information.

formerdukeathlete
11-19-2007, 07:30 PM
Bowl Subdivision

new vernacular

as ali g would say, "check it:"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_I

dukie8
11-19-2007, 07:31 PM
Careful, there, FDA...when I suggested earlier in this thread that improving the quality of the gameday experience for fans through stadium facility enhancements might encourage greater attendance and fan support, which could in turn contribute to the improvement of the football program's on-the-field performance, I was informed by Dukie8 that "thinking that bathrooms and food quality at ww have anything to do with the quality of duke football is a ridiculous concept, not even in the range of being relevant." Furthermore, Dukie8 "do[es]n't think the level of fan support is very highly correlated with the success of a program," and believes that those of us who do are "part of the problem." You may want to reconsider your reliance on the Fuqua study, since it not only signifies that we are in agreement on something for once, but aligns you with a segment of the fan base that has been charcterized as "part of the problem." ;)

i'm not sure if you are trying to backhandly rip my earlier comments, but i stand by them. as i stated earlier, nearly every other bcs school has much better fan support and some teams are good, some bad and some mediocre. i therefore don't think that "fan support" correlates very well with wins on the field. i agree that adding better food, more comfortable seats and other carnival acts (maybe clowns for the kids to play with) will draw more people. however, i don't then make the next leap in faith that having more people in the stands is going to help a team with a very weak coach win more games.

the bottom line is, win games and people will show up -- not the other way around, which some on here seem to think.

jlear
11-19-2007, 07:54 PM
the bottom line is, win games and people will show up -- not the other way around, which some on here seem to think.

A big loud home crowd can give a boost when games are close...our games are not close!

Stray Gator
11-19-2007, 08:09 PM
i'm not sure if you are trying to backhandly rip my earlier comments, but i stand by them. as i stated earlier, nearly every other bcs school has much better fan support and some teams are good, some bad and some mediocre. i therefore don't think that "fan support" correlates very well with wins on the field. i agree that adding better food, more comfortable seats and other carnival acts (maybe clowns for the kids to play with) will draw more people. however, i don't then make the next leap in faith that having more people in the stands is going to help a team with a very weak coach win more games.

the bottom line is, win games and people will show up -- not the other way around, which some on here seem to think.

I'm not ripping your comments. I simply disagree with your opinion. And apparently the Fuqua study disagrees with your opinion, too.

Of course there are programs with great fan support that don't have winning records every year. But that begs the question. No one is saying fan support guarantees a winning program--only that fan support is an element in the process that helps to build a winning program. Do you really believe that recruits aren't influenced by fan support? Read the comments of recruits after they make official visits and attend games at places like the Swamp, the Big House or the Horseshoe, Neyland, and other stadiums known for loud, enthusiastic fans. A less widely recognized, but potentially significant, influence, is whether the gameday atmosphere and facilities are appealing to the recruit's family, which will be traveling there to attend games for the next 3-5 years. And I don't think there's any serious dispute that fan support affects the spirit and attitude of the players on the field--unless you also believe the "home-field advantage" is just a myth.

So I'm not ripping your comments. I just think you're underestimating the effect of fan support--or lack of fan support--on a program's success.

dukie8
11-19-2007, 08:21 PM
I'm not ripping your comments. I simply disagree with your opinion. And apparently the Fuqua study disagrees with your opinion, too.

Of course there are programs with great fan support that don't have winning records every year. But that begs the question. No one is saying fan support guarantees a winning program--only that fan support is an element in the process that helps to build a winning program. Do you really believe that recruits aren't influenced by fan support? Read the comments of recruits after they make official visits and attend games at places like the Swamp, the Big House or the Horseshoe, Neyland, and other stadiums known for loud, enthusiastic fans. A less widely recognized, but potentially significant, influence, is whether the gameday atmosphere and facilities are appealing to the recruit's family, which will be traveling there to attend games for the next 3-5 years. And I don't think there's any serious dispute that fan support affects the spirit and attitude of the players on the field--unless you also believe the "home-field advantage" is just a myth.

So I'm not ripping your comments. I just think you're underestimating the effect of fan support--or lack of fan support--on a program's success.

forget about fan support guaranteeing a winning program -- it has virtually no correlation to it because just as many losing teams as winning teams have a lot of it. sure, recruits are influenced by all sorts of things and playing in front of 80K plus 6 times a year is going to influence a lot of them -- but duke never is going to be able to have 80K, or even 60K, pack a stadium, no matter how good the team, is so it's much more fruitful to focus on things that we can control and that actually have a much stronger correlation to winning -- like a good coach.

it really is shocking (well maybe it isn't) that the bathrooms for fans repeatedly get cited as a key problem with the team but other factors -- like does the strength and conditioning coach have a clue -- get completely ignored (at least as of a couple of days ago).

Lavabe
11-19-2007, 08:45 PM
Bowl Subdivision

new vernacular

as ali g would say, "check it:"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_I


only one other BSD school still separates fans from the football field with a track

So UDub is the only other BSD (Sorry ... I'm still cracking up when I see BSD ... THANKS CameronBlue) with a track surrounding its football field?

Kansas also has a track around its stadium (http://kuathletics.cstv.com/facilities/kan-facilities.html).

Faurot Field (Mizzou) also keeps its fans away from the field.

Cheers,
Lavabe

Stray Gator
11-19-2007, 08:52 PM
forget about fan support guaranteeing a winning program -- it has virtually no correlation to it because just as many losing teams as winning teams have a lot of it. sure, recruits are influenced by all sorts of things and playing in front of 80K plus 6 times a year is going to influence a lot of them -- but duke never is going to be able to have 80K, or even 60K, pack a stadium, no matter how good the team, is so it's much more fruitful to focus on things that we can control and that actually have a much stronger correlation to winning -- like a good coach.

it really is shocking (well maybe it isn't) that the bathrooms for fans repeatedly get cited as a key problem with the team but other factors -- like does the strength and conditioning coach have a clue -- get completely ignored (at least as of a couple of days ago).

Who said the bathrooms are "a key problem with the team"? I merely said good facilities help to encourage better attendance, which promotes greater fan support, which is "an element" in building a more successful program. No one here disputes that there are more important elements--talented veteran players who are well conditioned, quality depth at every position, and experienced coaches, to name a few. My disagreement stems from your insistence that it is "a ridiculous concept" to think that the quality of the gameday experience for fans--which, by the way, is something we can control, as the posters who started this discussion suggested--is "even in the range of being relevant." That's all.

formerdukeathlete
11-19-2007, 10:46 PM
So UDub is the only other BSD (Sorry ... I'm still cracking up when I see BSD ... THANKS CameronBlue) with a track surrounding its football field?

Kansas also has a track around its stadium (http://kuathletics.cstv.com/facilities/kan-facilities.html).

Faurot Field (Mizzou) also keeps its fans away from the field.

Cheers,
Lavabe

Mizzou was a horseshoe design constructed with a track, like Wade, years and years ago. The track is no more.

http://football.ballparks.com/NCAA/Big12/Missouri/index.htm

The open end of the horseshoe was enclosed back when and seats were brought right up to the field at this endzone when enclosed. It may be that the field was not lowered, but simply that the track was removed. Studying a photo it appears that some rows were added moving seats slightly to the field around the rest of the stadium.

The LA coliseum and the Naval Academy were a couple of fairly recent renovations where the fields were lowered and seats were broght down closer to the field. Many other stadiums have been renovated in this fashion, removing running tracks and distances separating fans from the field. Many, many more than the 3 remaining - yes I misses U Dub top division schools with tracks in their football stadiums. Kansas and U Dub stadiums are impressive in their own rights, particularly U Dub with the setting, water views.

phaedrus
11-19-2007, 11:24 PM
forget about fan support guaranteeing a winning program -- it has virtually no correlation . . .

BCS teams with more fan support than Duke: all of them

BCS teams that win more than Duke: all of them

Does that count as correlation?

Lavabe
11-19-2007, 11:43 PM
Faurot Field is just plain bizarre now... take out the track, but don't put stands in. The separate track is supposedly pretty nice.

I guess the source of my bewilderment was that the Kansas track is truly historic, and I couldn't imagine them moving it. Sort of like Hayward Field in Oregon. Originally set up for football, Oregon wound up opening another stadium for football, leaving Hayward for track. Kicking track off Hayward would have created a tremendous stink.

Sorry, but Wally Wade just isn't that historic...

I guess a great model would be the Stanford situation. They created a nice track stadium, and renovated the existing football stadium. I wonder how that flew past the trustees, admin, and faculty.

I love the UDub stadium. It's as close to putting in a moat as you'll find! All it needs is a few gators!! ;)

Cheers,
Lavabe

jlear
11-20-2007, 06:29 AM
BCS teams with more fan support than Duke: all of them

BCS teams that win more than Duke: all of them

Does that count as correlation?

I think there is a correlation between winning and fan support: the more you win the more fan support you will have.

But your opinion stated here as fact is incorrect: 25 D1 teams (a lot in BCS conferences) have had lower home attendance than Duke this year and some have better records. I didn't check them all just enough to know you didn't check at all.

In my opinion, we are so far from being competitive that the home field advantage we could get from a packed house is not going to make a difference. We need to play better football.

YmoBeThere
11-20-2007, 06:44 AM
I think there is a correlation between winning and fan support: the more you win the more fan support you will have.

But your opinion stated here as fact is incorrect: 25 D1 teams (a lot in BCS conferences) have had lower home attendance than Duke this year and some have better records. I didn't check them all just enough to know you didn't check at all.


May I suggest that the sample size is not appropriate? You can't look at a single year's attendance and results and draw a good conclusion. A lot more work to go back and look at records and attendance figures for a 4-5 year period(and much longer would be better) but anything less leads to weak conclusions, IMHO.

Overall on the fan support/winning issue, we have potentially revealed a chicken or the egg situation. So, either we start showing up for games(I am good for one a season, sorry I live too far away) or they need to have some W's on the field...to break this impasse.