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View Full Version : Duke MBB vs. NCCU - Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
11-09-2007, 08:07 PM
Post your post-game thoughts here.

JasonEvans
11-09-2007, 08:11 PM
Looks like we used a litle bit of depth eh?

Fish80
11-09-2007, 08:11 PM
Yeah Baby! This season is going to be a lot of fun!

Biscuit King
11-09-2007, 08:12 PM
Will this team set a school record for most threes made in a game at some point this season? Did it happen tonight?

fogey
11-09-2007, 08:14 PM
what a breath of fresh air to see bodies moving at full speed. great promise for the season, notwithstanding tonight's opponent. shooting skills don't hurt either...

3rd Dukie
11-09-2007, 08:15 PM
IIRC someone said we were in a zone for 1/3 of the game. Did we play a matchup, or did they not have anyone we needed to matchup with?
Any other thoughts about the D?

Thanks.

dkbaseball
11-09-2007, 08:16 PM
If K wants to shorten the bench with this team he's going to have a devil of a time doing it. I honestly don't know who should be out there most of the time, except Singler, and I mean that in a good way. The lineup I'd like to see a lot of -- the three freshmen, Pocius and Thomas (who's vastly improved and really is a great free safety in the full court D). Zoubs wasn't with it tonight, everybody else looked good to terrific. Taylor King has to play a lot. Hold on to your seats, folks, the next few seasons are going to be a lot of fun.

Zeb
11-09-2007, 08:17 PM
... is going to be a difference maker in a lot of games. That combination of height, range and accuracy will cause people problems.

Fish80
11-09-2007, 08:20 PM
Will this team set a school record for most threes made in a game at some point this season? Did it happen tonight?

We were 16 for 28 on three's tonight. I think our record is 17 made threes.

M B Walker
11-09-2007, 08:20 PM
While I doubt very much we'll shoot 57% threes and 84% FT again this year, it's still a good thing to see. The balanced scoring is a real positive (7 players in double digits), and it's been a while since we scored 120+ points and went 10 deep. Still, Zoubek fouled out and Paulus looks like he's still struggling to score (1-3 FG, 2-2 FT, 5 points), so there's still room to improve.

Fish80
11-09-2007, 08:25 PM
I was watching on ACCSelect. Abby was great, she's really some kind of basketball genius. Excellent commentary.

The picture was not that good. Anybody else think the picture quality was sub-par?

Cameron
11-09-2007, 08:28 PM
Guys, you didn't know, King Taylor won't see the floor this year. Tonight was an aberration.

dkbaseball
11-09-2007, 08:28 PM
Seems to be an interesting new approach to Greg's difficulties with stopping penetration -- instead of guarding face up, he's playing on his opponent's strong hand side. So if the opponent wants to penetrate with the off hand dribble, go ahead. Am I just coming late to the party, or is this a new wrinkle? Kind of intriguing, as it allows the rest of the team to know which side they're going to have to help on, and cuts the floor in half if the other team wants to take advantage of dribble penetration.

Zeb
11-09-2007, 08:33 PM
I was watching on ACCSelect. Abby was great, she's really some kind of basketball genius. Excellent commentary.

The picture was not that good. Anybody else think the picture quality was sub-par?

Picture was bad, but better than I expected actually.

I was very impressed with Abby--she had great observations and sounded like she was very confortable as a commentator. Can't say the same for her partner though--I was waiting for a "boom goes the dynamite" from him.

trinity92
11-09-2007, 08:33 PM
SO glad to see us go as deep as we did. So many lineups, so many options used. A very solid effort and one to be excited about, regardless of the competition.

Glad:

-Forget the shooting, Taylor King has a good all-around game and can play defense. Great combination of confident shooter and deferent freshman.
-Singler. Nuff said.
-MARTY-- great to see him get some minutes and use them well.
-Henderson was smooth as ever.
-Smith can run the team, and will only get better. Was surprised, however, to see him get crossed and lost multiple times. Solid showing though.
-84% free throw shooting (!!)

Sad:
-Poor Zoubek. I'm still rooting for him, but those hands... Oy vey.
-Demarcus needs his 3 point privileges revoked. There is absolutely no reason he should be taking the second most 3s on our team like he did tonight. He took 5 and hit one. Scheyer took 4 and hit 3. We need Demarcus as a leader, but he can do that in the huddle, on defense and on the glass. He needs to be our 3rd or 4th offensive option.
-Our Zone. Maybe K can get Boeheim to asst. coach this team too. I'm sure we'll get better, and I'm not griping, but we have some real work to do.

Very happy with our performance, and I see the team doing their best to give Zoubek a boost. I hope they continue and we give him all our attention. If we can make him a solid force inside, this team will kill.

Zeb
11-09-2007, 08:36 PM
Guys, you didn't know, King Taylor won't see the floor this year. Tonight was an aberration.

I'm not sure I get this... is this trying to be sarcasm?

Mabdul Doobakus
11-09-2007, 08:36 PM
I was watching on ACCSelect. Abby was great, she's really some kind of basketball genius. Excellent commentary.

The picture was not that good. Anybody else think the picture quality was sub-par?

She was great. I think I learned more about basketball from listening to her than I ever have listening to anyone else.

The picture was pretty good compared to other events I've watched on the internet. It's not TV.

VaDukie
11-09-2007, 08:54 PM
Team looked good, although we definitley got sloppy at times. In terms of pure entertainment value, this may be the most fun team to watch since 99.

4Luck
11-09-2007, 09:06 PM
Picture was bad, but better than I expected actually.

I was very impressed with Abby--she had great observations and sounded like she was very confortable as a commentator. Can't say the same for her partner though--I was waiting for a "boom goes the dynamite" from him.

I was waiting for the dude to start hyperventilating or something - he just doesn't seem comfortable, and maybe a little nervous? I don't really know. But Abby did a phenomenal job, and I can only cringe thinking about the guy doing the commentating when Abby's not there. Talk about using the MUTE button.

And as for the game, my concern other than getting Zoub the Elmers he needs, is fouling. There were a lot of little fouls, particularly within the post on Zoubek and King that are going to really hurt in a close game, especially if anyone's in foul trouble. If fouls can be managed the team is in much better shape. Other than that that - Shoot those threes and run!

Troublemaker
11-09-2007, 09:08 PM
-Demarcus needs his 3 point privileges revoked. There is absolutely no reason he should be taking the second most 3s on our team like he did tonight. He took 5 and hit one. Scheyer took 4 and hit 3. We need Demarcus as a leader, but he can do that in the huddle, on defense and on the glass. He needs to be our 3rd or 4th offensive option.


All his shots were open shots, though; he just happened to miss. But it's just one game, and he did hit 41% and 36% from three the past two seasons. I'm not sure we have structured "options" right now. With our style of play, it's more about opportunities that present themselves (off forced turnovers, off rebounds, etc) and being in the right place at the right time. I suspect the leading shottakers from game to game will be somewhat fluid.

Troublemaker
11-09-2007, 09:12 PM
I was waiting for the dude to start hyperventilating or something - he just doesn't seem comfortable, and maybe a little nervous? I don't really know. But Abby did a phenomenal job, and I can only cringe thinking about the guy doing the commentating when Abby's not there. Talk about using the MUTE button.


Abby is terrific. Very insightful commentary. The guy she's working with has actually gotten better every game since Blue-White, hard as that is to believe. I'm almost used to him now but I'm glad that should be the last time I have to listen to him. They're just kids, though, and he's not as bad as the "boom goes the dynamite" guy of internet lore.

dkbaseball
11-09-2007, 09:13 PM
I'm not sure I get this... is this trying to be sarcasm?

I think it's going for triumphal, told-you-so irony.

Genedoc
11-09-2007, 09:19 PM
Good Signs:
1) With all due respect to The Who - The Kids Are Alright. Both of the King and Singler are simply...basketball players. Some beautiful post moves, crisp cuts, decisive movements, in rhythm shooting. I know who we were playing, but it was still a thing of beauty to see.
2) Running Game - Wow. Up and down, and up and dowm...They were flying.
3) Zone D - Considering the...defensive insufficiencies...some of our guys have one on one, I was pleased with the way we played zone. We're going to need it, and it was very active and created a lot of TOs.
4) Confident off the ball defense - Again, I know who we were playing, but the way our guys were playing help defense, in zone and in man, was very inspiring.

Concerns:
1) I hate to single anyone out, but it's clear that the injury sustained this summer really prevented #55 from improving. I'm expecting maybe 5-8 minutes a game from him this year...

Overall, a very encouraging performance. They looked like they were having a ball, too.

ETA - Forgot to mention that the student section was rocking. Nice job, guys!

jzp5079
11-09-2007, 09:21 PM
I liked how we didn't seem to lose anything while we were subbing in and out.

Smith looked terrific - I think he was caught off guard a few times by Central's quickness when he was taking the ball up the floor. Otherwise solid showing - 13 minutes - 16 points, 3 assists, 1 turnover

Paulus - 20 minutes - 5 points - 1 assist, 1 turnover - made a lot of hustle plays which don't show up in the boxscore.

Singler - Dosn't force anything and trusts his teammates. Will he be the one with the ball in hand when we need that clutch last minute play?

Henderson - No question he has a better stroke and is making much better decisions then he did last year. Loved the 3 he popped almost off the dribble in the second half.

Nelson - Only saw him force himself into traffic once tonight... He was a little off from the top of the key - but at the same time they were leaving us open all over the plac - and I'm not so sure Coach K wants our players (even Nelson) to pass up open shots from the key.

Thomas - is the CBS boxscore correct I'm reading, (I didn't check the box until the end of the game) 0 rebounds?!? Looked good while I watched - but I don't like that stat at all. When we play a team with real big men... that dosn't give me confidence he can control the box adequetly. He should have been quick enough to box out Central's smaller players and at least pick up 1 rebound... again he didn't look bad though - solid offensive game.

Zoubek - Good effort - he just needs to get mean. Keep the ball up on the reb's. Try to finish with authority even if it means you slam the ball off the rim - I almost peed my pants when I saw him try to lay it in right under the basket ever so gingerly in the first half - and miss. Again though - he puts in a good effort - so he should improve.

Pocious - he's a human dart when he gets going. I think he should eventually eat up some more of Paulus's minutes as the season progresses (when paired with Sheyer at the point). I can see people disagreeing with me on this one... He is just too good to not in our top rotation... just my opinion.

King - I would have never said this before these first 3 games - but I would be surprised if he wasn't one of our top 3 scorers this season. You are going to have to sacrifice putting a big athletic wing on him to stop him - and then we have Singler, Henderson, and Nelson still out there to roam. I will be paying attention to what kind of defenders he draws this season - and his stats of course. A pleasent surprise.

jipops
11-09-2007, 09:21 PM
SO glad to see us go as deep as we did. So many lineups, so many options
-Demarcus needs his 3 point privileges revoked. There is absolutely no reason he should be taking the second most 3s on our team like he did tonight. He took 5 and hit one. Scheyer took 4 and hit 3. We need Demarcus as a leader, but he can do that in the huddle, on defense and on the glass. He needs to be our 3rd or 4th offensive option.

Demarcus our 3rd or 4th offensive option? Are JJ and Shelden still on the team? There will be numerous games that come to a point that we need a score, DeMarcus may very well be the guy we lean on the most for that score.

I can guarantee you it will not be Taylor King.

4Luck
11-09-2007, 09:28 PM
Abby is terrific. Very insightful commentary. The guy she's working with has actually gotten better every game since Blue-White, hard as that is to believe. I'm almost used to him now but I'm glad that should be the last time I have to listen to him. They're just kids, though, and he's not as bad as the "boom goes the dynamite" guy of internet lore.

Lol, very true. I agree he has improved with each game but I too am thankful.


Anyway, I loved what Marty showcased tonight. He had a great game and as a Marty fan I was really glad to see him do well tonight. I hope he can continue to make good use of the minutes he gets.

jipops
11-09-2007, 09:36 PM
I wasn't at the game (though did listen) but judging from the box score and this thread, Scheyer once again isn't getting his due props. His stat line is arguably the most impressive - 13pts on 50% shooting, 6 assists, ZERO turnovers, 2 steals, and 4 rebounds.

And though he didn't start he did lead the team in minutes. Looks like K may be counting on him quite heavily.

Bluedog
11-09-2007, 09:37 PM
We were 16 for 28 on three's tonight. I think our record is 17 made threes.

Our record is 18 made threes.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22726&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1308921

cajundevil74
11-09-2007, 09:38 PM
will not be our first option in the clutch. If he is then we are middle of the pack in the ACC. Singler, Henderson will be the top two players at the end of the game.

Also, it was painful to watch Zoubek at times. I don't want to be too critical but he has a looonngg way to go. Chuck Nevitt, Neil Fingleton come to mind.

This team is fun to watch. I was impressed by the unselfishness, evidenced by our first three pointer by Paulus. The ball went from Paulus to Nelson to Henderson to Singler back to Paulus in rapid fashion - it was a thing of beauty.

cajundevil74
11-09-2007, 09:42 PM
had a very nice game tonight. The strength of his game is not setting up the offense or running the point. Although the stats didn't credit him with any turnovers, I remember cringing several times he was dribbling near midcourt. However, when he can play his natural 2 guard position, he was very impressive. I think Scheyer's shooting % will go up as he will get more open shots due to our multitude of weapons.

I can't wait for Monday.

jipops
11-09-2007, 09:55 PM
will not be our first option in the clutch. If he is then we are middle of the pack in the ACC. Singler, Henderson will be the top two players at the end of the game.

Also, it was painful to watch Zoubek at times. I don't want to be too critical but he has a looonngg way to go. Chuck Nevitt, Neil Fingleton come to mind.

This team is fun to watch. I was impressed by the unselfishness, evidenced by our first three pointer by Paulus. The ball went from Paulus to Nelson to Henderson to Singler back to Paulus in rapid fashion - it was a thing of beauty.
It is atleast encouraging that Zoubek had 9 boards. Sure this was against a very small team, but it's more encouraging than Thomas' 2.

Brian has the toughest battle of anyone. He has to get back in shape while becoming comfortable in an offense that wants to run. Z has skills but he's still fighting the setback that occurred this past summer.

And yes, Markie will be our guy called on in the clutch in many situations. He's a senior and a natural scorer, 2 combinations K always favors. Not a great shooter but he can score.

DevilAlumna
11-09-2007, 10:12 PM
Demarcus our 3rd or 4th offensive option? Are JJ and Shelden still on the team? There will be numerous games that come to a point that we need a score, DeMarcus may very well be the guy we lean on the most for that score.


IIRC, Demarcus was tied with Singler at the half for leading scorer. I concur that he's likely a bit higher than 4th when it comes to who we go to for clutch points.



Paulus - 20 minutes - 5 points - 1 assist, 1 turnover - made a lot of hustle plays which don't show up in the boxscore.

Thomas - is the CBS boxscore correct I'm reading, (I didn't check the box until the end of the game) 0 rebounds?!? Looked good while I watched - but I don't like that stat at all. When we play a team with real big men... that dosn't give me confidence he can control the box adequetly. He should have been quick enough to box out Central's smaller players and at least pick up 1 rebound... again he didn't look bad though - solid offensive game.


That boxscore is grossly incorrect.

The goduke.com stats have Paulus with 4 assists plus 1 steal to 1 TO.

Thomas had 2 rebounds, 1 assist, 4! steals, and no TOs, to go along with his 9 points on 2-3 fg and 5-5 ft shooting.

jimsumner
11-09-2007, 10:13 PM
Krzyzewski talked a lot about the zone in the post-game. Joked that he sends tapes to Boeheim for critique. "Two guys over 60. That's how we get off, exchanging tapes of zone defenses." I suspect part of the zone useage was a result of the score but K still insists Duke will use it as a regular part of its game.

Duke really does have a lot of depth. Duke went with Thomas, Singler, Henderson, Nelson, and Paulus as the starters in both halves but Scheyer led the team in minutes played. Scheyer, Smith, and King played starter's minutes but Pocius looks pretty good and it wasn't all mop-up minutes. Zoubek still struggling with his lift but he did have nine boards in limited minutes. But he has to stay on the floor. And don't forget McClure will be coming on board soon.

There's also versatility. Thomas getting steals at midcourt, Nelson crashing the glass, lots of guys who can handle, shoot the 3, run the floor.

K continues to experiment with lineups. Several sequences without Paulus or Smith, several sequences without Thomas or Zoubek. K talked about Scheyer pressing coming off bench in pre-season games, trying to do things to quickly. Much more under control tonight. Six assists and zero turnovers is a pretty good a/to, ratio for a guy not supposed to be a primary ball-handler.

And check out the foul shooting.

wisteria
11-09-2007, 10:20 PM
It is atleast encouraging that Zoubek had 9 boards. Sure this was against a very small team, but it's more encouraging than Thomas' 2.

Although I was cringing almost every time Zoubek touched the ball, I have to say that he was being decidely tough and competitive tonight. Especially loved it when he didn't give up on a loose outbound ball, saved it and passed to Marty who finished with a 3.

Thomas looked very good on the court. I remembered saying to myself "Lance indeed improved a lot". Didn't notice the rebound stat during the game.

NCCU hit a lot of 3s today, (although we returned more.) Was it simply because they shot well, or was it because our defense on that wasn't good enough? How is the Zone working? I am no expert, while I can spot a zone I can never tell if it's good or not.

jipops
11-09-2007, 10:28 PM
And don't forget McClure will be coming on board soon.

Man I hope so. We'll really need him at 100% when the heart of the season rolls around.

wisteria
11-09-2007, 10:28 PM
One thing I noticed today before the game was that after NCCU starting players were introduced, every single one of them went to greet Coach K. I don't really remember other teams doing this.(Or maybe I just didn't watch enough games.) From what I've read elsewhere, K has made it a point to reach out to Central and promote the relationship between the two schools. I, for one, was very glad to see the greeting scene.

Bob Green
11-09-2007, 10:37 PM
Here are the numbers from GoDuke:


Mins Pts Rebs Assts T/O Steals
Singler 23 15 8 2 3 1
Thomas 22 9 2 1 0 4
Paulus 19 5 1 4 1 1
Hendo 20 15 5 2 0 2
Nelson 21 10 8 0 4 0
Smith 20 16 0 4 2 0
Pocius 12 10 4 2 2 0
King 19 20 6 3 3 0
Scheyer 24 13 4 6 0 2
Zoubek 16 6 9 3 3 0
Davidson4 2 0 0 0 0
Total 200 121 47 27 18 10

There was much discussion during the off-season about the point guard and post. Let's take a look at those two positions:


Mins Pts Rebs Assts T/O Steals
Paulus/Smith 39 21 1 8 3 1
Thomas/Zoubek 38 15 11 4 3 4

For this first game, production from the point guards and post players was extremely good. It will be interesting to track these numbers over the course of the season.

Cameron
11-09-2007, 10:44 PM
I think it's going for triumphal, told-you-so irony.


Bingo.

I'm not usually that type of person but with some of the things people on here were saying about King Taylor before the season began, I felt it was necessary. Taylor is going to be a top 4 or 5 scorer on this team. Mark it down. Perhaps even 3, as one poster said above. This kid is SICK! He's going to create the biggest matchup advantage offensively we've had since Dunleavy. I really believe that.

Those people were probably the same people saying Jon wouldn't lick the floor as a freshman...

With all that aside, we played a great game tonight. Every single one of our guys.

Jumbo
11-09-2007, 10:50 PM
Guys, you didn't know, King Taylor won't see the floor this year. Tonight was an aberration.

LOL. I'm sticking to my story that he'll be a situational guy come ACC season. Still, quite a start for him!

Jumbo
11-09-2007, 10:56 PM
I wasn't at the game (though did listen) but judging from the box score and this thread, Scheyer once again isn't getting his due props. His stat line is arguably the most impressive - 13pts on 50% shooting, 6 assists, ZERO turnovers, 2 steals, and 4 rebounds.

And though he didn't start he did lead the team in minutes. Looks like K may be counting on him quite heavily.

Shocking around here, isn't? The guy's just a player. Maybe people will wake up to that fact by the time he's a senior.

devildeac
11-09-2007, 11:02 PM
Will this team set a school record for most threes made in a game at some point this season? Did it happen tonight?

Not sure what the record is but according to the post-game show we were 15-28 from beyond the arc(and 27-32 on FT). Sweet...

Jumbo
11-09-2007, 11:05 PM
[Nelson]will not be our first option in the clutch. If he is then we are middle of the pack in the ACC. Singler, Henderson will be the top two players at the end of the game.

Also, it was painful to watch Zoubek at times. I don't want to be too critical but he has a looonngg way to go. Chuck Nevitt, Neil Fingleton come to mind.

I'm just using this post as an example, because it's representative of at least a dozen others so far in this thread. People ... CHILL!!! This was one game against a team that wasn't even in D-I last year. Evaluating individual players so strongly at this point in the season against that type of an opponent -- especially one who is still catching up from an injury, like Zoubek -- is just silly.

Here's what I take from this game -- last year's team couldn't have put up 120 points against a D-III team. So, there is overall offensive improvement and I think the team has the potential to be really good.
But, otherwise, I have no idea what this bodes for guys like King, Zoubek, Pocius, etc. I don't think it's any indicator that K plans to play a lot of zone -- this game was just an opportunity to work on different things. I don't think it's any window into what the eventual rotation will look like. Dave McClure didn't even play, and he will definitely be heard from. Someone who was going on about zone -- was it Genedoc? -- was talking about individual players' defensive deficiencies last year, and how Duke will "need" to go zone to cover for that. How quickly people forget that before McClure got hurt last year, Duke was playing defense at an incredibly high level. Duke's late-season struggles at that end can timed almost exactly with his injury. It killed Duke's excellent help D. And as far as individual players, only one (Paulus) could even have been considered a "liability" guarding the ball last year. Argh. Here we go.

devildeac
11-09-2007, 11:06 PM
Good Signs:
1) With all due respect to The Who - The Kids Are Alright. Both of the King and Singler are simply...basketball players. Some beautiful post moves, crisp cuts, decisive movements, in rhythm shooting. I know who we were playing, but it was still a thing of beauty to see.
2) Running Game - Wow. Up and down, and up and dowm...They were flying.
3) Zone D - Considering the...defensive insufficiencies...some of our guys have one on one, I was pleased with the way we played zone. We're going to need it, and it was very active and created a lot of TOs.
4) Confident off the ball defense - Again, I know who we were playing, but the way our guys were playing help defense, in zone and in man, was very inspiring.

Concerns:
1) I hate to single anyone out, but it's clear that the injury sustained this summer really prevented #55 from improving. I'm expecting maybe 5-8 minutes a game from him this year...

Overall, a very encouraging performance. They looked like they were having a ball, too.

ETA - Forgot to mention that the student section was rocking. Nice job, guys!


Zone D-we played some 2/3 AND some 1/3/1 tonite fairly effectively(I nearly fainted!). The MTM full court press was OK and variations of a zone trap(full court, 3/4 court and 1/2 court worked fairly nicely at times, too. K said in the post game show that it was a good practice and TK reiterated that, too.

Cameron
11-09-2007, 11:08 PM
Jumbo:

I love Jon's game. I would sit around all day and write books about how much I appreciate this kid's basketball IQ, if I didn't have to live life. He's awesome. I think that's the only way to describe it. Don't worry, though, some people are just blind.

BTW, I love how ESPN shows highlights of every other college game that went on tonight, except Duke's. Whatever, were still their money maker, and we will be playing nightly on their sister stations:) Guess the joke's on them.

Jumbo
11-09-2007, 11:12 PM
Bingo.

I'm not usually that type of person but with some of the things people on here were saying about King Taylor before the season began, I felt it was necessary. Taylor is going to be a top 4 or 5 scorer on this team. Mark it down. Perhaps even 3, as one poster said above. This kid is SICK! He's going to create the biggest matchup advantage offensively we've had since Dunleavy. I really believe that.

Those people were probably the same people saying Jon wouldn't lick the floor as a freshman...

With all that aside, we played a great game tonight. Every single one of our guys.

As we've discussed, I'm one of the people who doesn't think King will come close to that level of impact this year. And, as you well know, I was not one of the people saying Scheyer wouldn't lick the floor as a frosh -- I told everyone he would start. I think it's time for some sort of a friendly bet on King's impact. We need some sort of a measurable quantity and then some amusing stakes. Any ideas?

As an aside, it's funny -- I don't even think of Dunleavy as a huge matchup nightmare, because his game was almost exclusively perimeter-oriented. So is King's. I think Deng was a tougher player to defend, and I think Singler will the biggest matchup problem for opponents this year.

Cameron
11-09-2007, 11:13 PM
UPDATE: SportsCenter finally showed us:) Excuese my previous rant, please:)

jipops
11-09-2007, 11:15 PM
Bingo.

I'm not usually that type of person but with some of the things people on here were saying about King Taylor before the season began, I felt it was necessary. Taylor is going to be a top 4 or 5 scorer on this team. Mark it down. Perhaps even 3, as one poster said above. This kid is SICK! He's going to create the biggest matchup advantage offensively we've had since Dunleavy. I really believe that.

Those people were probably the same people saying Jon wouldn't lick the floor as a freshman...

With all that aside, we played a great game tonight. Every single one of our guys.
You're waaay too in-love with Taylor King. Yes, the guy has had a nice start and nobody is going to dispute his ability to shoot the ball.

In no way has he proven anything else yet other than grab some boards against a 6-3 guy that played in D-II last year. It's good to see enthusiasm about a player, especially since there can be negativity on this board about so many others. But be careful not to set yourself up for disappointment when serious competition arrives, especially come ACC play.

Cameron
11-09-2007, 11:27 PM
I always seem to let Deng slip from my terrible memory, but, you're right, Jumbo, Deng was just that, a great offensive mismatch. I think many took his one year in Durham for granted, but that's beside the point, I guess.

As for your wager proposition, it sounds intriguing. Let me sleep on it;)

Some early ideas for my share of the measureable quantities, however, could include King sporting a 9 or 10 PPG average and 85+ triples on the season. Let me go to my office and shuffle some ideas around:)

As for the stakes, perhaps the loser must become a diehard Hurricanes hoops fan, complete with Miami-dedicated basement and orange John Salmons posters? Lol, I'd probably just end it all if that were the case:)

What are your ideas?

jipops
11-09-2007, 11:30 PM
I think it's time for some sort of a friendly bet on King's impact.

I think some of this may depend on McClure's health. A healthy McClure with his impact on defense may have King mostly riding the pine during ACC play. An unhealthy McClure may likely give King the opportunity for more burn and to hit some shots, but our frontcourt D will be increasingly suspect.

I know that sounds a bit like waffling. Either way, I have a hard time seeing us counting on King to give us solid crunch time minutes. At best, he's a year away from that.

I have no ideas for a wager, but I do like beer.

Cameron
11-09-2007, 11:36 PM
I have no ideas for a wager, but I do like beer.


Lol. I've just thought of a great wager. Season's tickets + 50 bucks each game for alcohol. Now who has season tickets and wants to put them up against my 85+ triples from King Taylor? :) In return, if I were to lose, you could have my JJ Redick rookie card :D

Jumbo
11-09-2007, 11:40 PM
I always seem to let Deng slip from my terrible memory, but, you're right, Jumbo, Deng was just that, a great offensive mismatch. I think many took his one year in Durham for granted, but that's beside the point, I guess.

As for your wager proposition, it sounds intriguing. Let me sleep on it;)

Some early ideas for my share of the measureable quantities, however, could include King sporting a 9 or 10 PPG average and 85+ triples on the season. Let me go to my office and shuffle some ideas around:)

As for the stakes, perhaps the loser must become a diehard Hurricanes hoops fan, complete with Miami-dedicated basement and orange John Salmons posters? Lol, I'd probably just end it all if that were the case:)

What are your ideas?

Let's go with King +/- 10 ppg. Deal?
As far as stakes, let's make it something easy, yet public. Maybe something with an avatar or post name? For instance, if I lose, maybe King becomes my avatar and some tribute to you becomes my sig. I need to think about what I'd make you do if I win ... ;)

DevilAlumna
11-09-2007, 11:56 PM
One thing I noticed today before the game was that after NCCU starting players were introduced, every single one of them went to greet Coach K. I don't really remember other teams doing this.(Or maybe I just didn't watch enough games.) From what I've read elsewhere, K has made it a point to reach out to Central and promote the relationship between the two schools. I, for one, was very glad to see the greeting scene.

As I was shutting down my internet-radio coverage window, the radio announcers started to say something about both teams coming together at the end (or was it the beginning?) of the game in some sort of show of... something. Any more information from those in attendance/in the the know?

PallasAthena
11-10-2007, 12:08 AM
One thing I noticed today before the game was that after NCCU starting players were introduced, every single one of them went to greet Coach K. I don't really remember other teams doing this .

Yes, that impressed me too!

I was wondering where all those national news outlet reporters were tonight -- the ones who reported on the bad atmosphere in Durham, bad relations between Duke and NCCU, etc. The atmosphere in Cameron was extremely positive! The Crazies did chant "pull up your pants" during warm-ups. (Central's shorts are, well, LONG, way below the knees.) However, all the Central players got the "Hi, whoever!" greeting at intros. When Art Chandler asked the fans to stay off the floor after the game, so that a picture could be taken of the two teams in honor of Central's first game as a Division I team, there was much applause. More cheering as the picture was being taken, and a standing ovation for Central as they left the floor.

Was anyone from Central sitting with Brodhead? I couldn't quite see.

Anyway, the atmosphere in Cameron was very nice tonight, good crowd, really into the game, kind to the opposition, who seemed to be very classy players who never quit in spite of the score.

jlear
11-10-2007, 12:08 AM
As I was shutting down my internet-radio coverage window, the radio announcers started to say something about both teams coming together at the end (or was it the beginning?) of the game in some sort of show of... something. Any more information from those in attendance/in the the know?

Both teams joined at center court, after the game, for a picture to commemorate NCCU's first D1 game. I think it was Coach K’s idea.

Cameron
11-10-2007, 12:28 AM
Jumbo:

I'll take those PPG odds. We'll work the rest of the wager out before Monday's game. Perhaps your signature could be something like, "King Taylor, I bow at your throne & repent my sins. You are my everything."

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL We'll work something out;)

FreezingDevil
11-10-2007, 12:50 AM
Was anyone from Central sitting with Brodhead? I couldn't quite see.

I think Brodhead and his wife were sitting with the NCCU president. I also think I saw the two student body presidents sitting there.

In regards to Brodhead, I love his bashful enthusiasm during the game. He always playfully interacts with the Crazies who stand right in front of him. At one point tonight he was one of the first out of his seat when Lance went airborne for nice dunk. Not bad for someone who supposedly disdains sports.

mepanchin
11-10-2007, 02:45 AM
I watched this game twice because I'm that kind of a nerd. I saw it the first time in the building (good to see the place full, btw), and a second time on ACC Select so I could record otherwise neglected defensive stats. The most interesting conclusion I've reached after recording everything?

Zoubek had the best defensive night of any player on the team. He was involved in a lot of plays defensively (about 36% defensive usage rate while most other players averaged 18-22%), forced 4.5 missed shots (recorded 2 people guarding a guy as split credit for missed shots), had a block, 5 defensive rebounds (which was good for 30% of the defensive rebounds he could get). He also gave up 3 made baskets, but 2 of them were when he played very good D, and the guy just made a tough shot. He does all this while looking goofy as all hell and uncoordinated, but I think he can contribute solid minutes.

Hey and he didn't travel tonight! I also thought 2 or 3 of the fouls were garbage calls and I'm not terribly worried about the foul situation.

Fun as hell game to watch tonight.

JBDuke
11-10-2007, 02:50 AM
Will this team set a school record for most threes made in a game at some point this season? Did it happen tonight?


We were 16 for 28 on three's tonight. I think our record is 17 made threes.

Actually, we've made 18 3's on two occasions, both by the the 2000-01 Devils: Dec. 30, 2000 vs. NC A&T and Mar. 15, 2001 vs. Monmouth. We've made 17 3's on 3 occasions, and 16 3's on one other occasion.

Still, an impressive shooting exhibition, especially given how cold we were from the outside during the exhibitions.

Cameron
11-10-2007, 03:40 AM
I'm really glad that cold shooting was corrected, too. I know we'll have some bad shooting nights (all teams do, it's just a part of the game), but those exhibition numbers from beyond the arc were beyond bad. They were Hilary Clinton.

Let's hope we can continue this hot shooting into Monday night!!!

I don't think NM State will be a pushover, though, as I believe they were picked to win their conference. It should a FUN night at any rate. Duke's first nationally televised game. Time for the rest of the world to drop their jaws (or in some people's cases, shed tears).

Bob Green
11-10-2007, 04:34 AM
There is no end to the different ways one can break down the box score. In this table, I take a look at: freshman production, sophomore production, starter production, & bench production.


Mins Pts Rebs Assts T/O Steals
Freshmen 62 51 14 9 8 1
Sophomores 82 43 20 12 3 8
Starters 105 54 24 9 8 8
Bench 95 67 23 18 10 2

No matter how you slice and dice it, the season opener was a success. It's time to move on to the NMSU game.

lavell12
11-10-2007, 04:59 AM
No offense to anyone but I think it is crazy and funny for any Duke fan to complain about the amount of coverage by ESPN.

Buckeye Devil
11-10-2007, 08:13 AM
Good start but it was first year D-I NCCU we are talking about here so I am not getting too carried away.

Nevertheless, after one game it kind of sounds like Coach K is expecting a pretty good contribution from Singler, King, and Robinson. ESPN.com quotes him as saying,

"They're ready to play at this level," Krzyzewski said of his rookies. "They can be good players right now. And they should bring energy. They should bring energy and enthusiasm. If they don't, they're not filling a role. They can bring all their skills, but they should bring [energy] more than anybody."

That may not translate into 20 minutes per game for a Taylor King but it sure gives the impression that he will get a shot at proving himself , earning some quality PT, and will be relied on (along with the others) to provide some spark this year. I guess we will see how he handles it.

dw0827
11-10-2007, 08:37 AM
Didn't see the game . . . didn't listen on the radio . . . but I understand that we played a fair amount of zone.

Yikes!

Any chance we played zone to call off the dogs and not run up the score? Or do you think Coach K is actually trying to incorporate zone into his defensive schemes and plans to play it a fair amount?

Color me skeptical.

Saratoga2
11-10-2007, 08:45 AM
I'm just using this post as an example, because it's representative of at least a dozen others so far in this thread. People ... CHILL!!! This was one game against a team that wasn't even in D-I last year. Evaluating individual players so strongly at this point in the season against that type of an opponent -- especially one who is still catching up from an injury, like Zoubek -- is just silly.

Here's what I take from this game -- last year's team couldn't have put up 120 points against a D-III team. So, there is overall offensive improvement and I think the team has the potential to be really good.
But, otherwise, I have no idea what this bodes for guys like King, Zoubek, Pocius, etc. I don't think it's any indicator that K plans to play a lot of zone -- this game was just an opportunity to work on different things. I don't think it's any window into what the eventual rotation will look like. Dave McClure didn't even play, and he will definitely be heard from. Someone who was going on about zone -- was it Genedoc? -- was talking about individual players' defensive deficiencies last year, and how Duke will "need" to go zone to cover for that. How quickly people forget that before McClure got hurt last year, Duke was playing defense at an incredibly high level. Duke's late-season struggles at that end can timed almost exactly with his injury. It killed Duke's excellent help D. And as far as individual players, only one (Paulus) could even have been considered a "liability" guarding the ball last year. Argh. Here we go.

I agree with you but do think much will be learned about the players and team at the tournament in Hawaii. When we compete with the more skilled teams with bigger players we will have to see if we can defend and rebound well enough. The offense does look better, although we do have some of the players starting who couldn't finish games last year. The play to date is reason for optimism but we need to see games against real competitive teams.

JasonEvans
11-10-2007, 08:48 AM
85+ triples from King Taylor

You are joking right?

Do you know how many 3s JJ Redick hit as a freshman?

95.

And JJ was a starter who averaged 30+ minutes per game.

You are talking about King making about 3 3-pointers per game. Wow, that would be a ton for a freshman sub.

--Jason "I am thrilled with the win, but last night was little more than another exhibition game-- lets not get over-excited people" Evans

JasonEvans
11-10-2007, 08:51 AM
Mins Pts Rebs Assts T/O Steals
Starters 105 54 24 9 8 8
Bench 95 67 23 18 10 2


I predict that if we continue to get 67 points per game from our bench we will have a good season ;)

Fish80
11-10-2007, 08:58 AM
Our record is 18 made threes.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22726&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1308921

I should have looked it up rather than rely on my memory. Lazy.

We actually made 18 twice, in 2000 versus N.C. A&T and in 2001 versus Monmouth. Made 17 three times, once in 1999 and once in 2000.

AtlDuke72
11-10-2007, 09:03 AM
Sad:
-Poor Zoubek. I'm still rooting for him, but those hands... Oy vey.


Zoubek scored 6 points, had 9 rebounds and 3 assists in 16 minutes. He is going to be great. It takes time for the big guys, and he is huge, to develop. I don't understand making this derogatory remark and then following it with praise to the team for supporting him. He also missed the summer due to his injury. Give the guy a break. This type of comment is unfair and uncalled for IMO.

YmoBeThere
11-10-2007, 09:05 AM
I predict that if we continue to get 67 points per game from our bench we will have a good season ;)

I'm going out on a limb too then, if we can outrebound our opponents by 26 per game, we will have a pretty good season:) !

Genedoc
11-10-2007, 09:06 AM
.......Someone who was going on about zone -- was it Genedoc? -- was talking about individual players' defensive deficiencies last year, and how Duke will "need" to go zone to cover for that. How quickly people forget that before McClure got hurt last year, Duke was playing defense at an incredibly high level. Duke's late-season struggles at that end can timed almost exactly with his injury. It killed Duke's excellent help D. And as far as individual players, only one (Paulus) could even have been considered a "liability" guarding the ball last year. Argh. Here we go.

If by "going on about" you mean "mentioned in one sentence", then yeah, that was me.

I'm not suggesting by any stretch of the imagination that Duke is going to turn into Syracuse or Temple overnight, nor should we. I'm merely stating that it's refreshing to see K even occasionally use a zone. I'm not sure why you mention last year's defense since we lost our best interior defender in McRoberts. As such, this year's team has one very clear defensive liability - the post. Furthermore, there is a problem with containing dribble penetration from the PG position. Our strength is exceptional depth and athleticism on the wing, so it makes sense to me for us to be at least competent in playing zone. When you've got average at best one on one defenders at a couple of positions on the floor, zone can cover up those defensive liabilities on occasion. That's all I'm saying. Nothing more.

Olympic Fan
11-10-2007, 09:09 AM
Count me with those who think Taylor King will play a MAJOR role this season and end up as far more than a situational player.

He's not going to hit 5-7 3-pointers every game (or very many games). Like almost all great shooters, he's somewhat streaky. He'll have games where he's not a big offensive force ... just as he'll have some big games where he hits three straight 3's to break open a close game or to get us back in a game where we're struggling.

But the reason I'm convinced he'll be a major force is that he's so much more than a shooter that he'll contribute even on nights when the three is not falling. He's been the teams best per-minute rebounder in Duke's three public games. He handles the ball well and despite all the complaints about his speed, he has excellent defensive instincts -- he's a very solid help defender.

I know that the competition so far has been mediocre. But I saw him do many of the same things in AAU ball against the top D-1 prospects. What's amazing about King is the combination of his shooting skills and high innate inside toughness.

As for the zone, I wouldn't get too excited. First, Duke didn't use it anywhere near one-third of the game. They went to it for the first time with about one-third of the game left (except for a very brief useage in the first half), but down the stretch frequently mixed in halfcourt man-to-man traps, plus straight man-to-man after missed shots.

Second, they didn't play it all that well -- Central got all the 3-point looks they wanted against the zone.

Third, the Central coach was asked whether he was surprised that K used so much zone and he answered, "They were up 50 points" implying that it was a mercy measure.

I think we'll see zone this year -- but only in certain situations, like the end of the half when the team might be protecting a bunch of people who have two fouls or maybe in situations when K wants to get Zoubek on the floor (he's much better in the zone than in the man-to-man).

Cameron
11-10-2007, 09:41 AM
I watched this game twice because I'm that kind of a nerd.

Not only do I record all of our games (and then proceed to stay up late into the night dissecting the tapes, looking for different ways for our team to be more efficient and what things Coach K should have done different...LOLOL who the hell am I?), but I also, in the past, have been known to scout Carolina games with a legal pad and pencil (as if my horrible observations were going to help us win:) But, I keep waiting, hoping I'll get the call from K or Collins, asking me into come in with a powerpoint presentation the night before the Rivalry in Blue:)) So, mepanchin, please don't call yourself a nerd, because I am afraid of what that would make me:D

Jason:

Yeah 85 triples is quite a lot of threes. I ran it through my head (I think) and realized it would be around 2.5 triples per contest if we were to play 35 games this season (and I am confident we will, or at least hopeful). With the way Taylor can shoot (and I know he'll off a lot of off games as well, though), I think he could put up those kinds of numbers. Obviously, it will depend how much playing time he gets. If Coach gave him 25 minutes a night, I think Taylor could accomplish close to 80, perhaps even 85, triples on the season. And I really do think Taylor will earn more playing time as the season progresses. He's such an advantage for us offensively, with his great height and range, but has also shown he can get inside and rebound and play nice interior defense if we need it.

All in all, though, I'm going to stick with my 10 PPG prediction for Taylor (just because of how "instant offense" he is), but I think I may, upon this further examination, retract about 15 threes off my original goal. I'll say King Taylor hits 70 plus. So, if we play 35 games, that would obviously be 2 treys a game for Taylor. Which he is MORE than capable of. Even if he goes three games in a row without hitting one, he'll go out and hit 12 triples over the next three, making up for it. Guess we'll see:)

jimsumner
11-10-2007, 10:07 AM
FWIW, K had a lot of fun at the press conference talking about the zone. He talked about satisfying the Duke fans and suggested that if Duke had used more zone over the years, Duke might have won three NCAA titles.

Duke calls its zone "Orange" as a tribute to Boeheim.

I think the zone is a useful option under certain circumstances but don't look for Duke to use it a lot. It'll give a different look, protect some guys in foul trouble, that sort of thing, but Duke is still going to predominantly be an in-your-face-m2m team on defense.

Jumbo
11-10-2007, 10:22 AM
If by "going on about" you mean "mentioned in one sentence", then yeah, that was me.

I'm not suggesting by any stretch of the imagination that Duke is going to turn into Syracuse or Temple overnight, nor should we. I'm merely stating that it's refreshing to see K even occasionally use a zone. I'm not sure why you mention last year's defense since we lost our best interior defender in McRoberts. As such, this year's team has one very clear defensive liability - the post. Furthermore, there is a problem with containing dribble penetration from the PG position. Our strength is exceptional depth and athleticism on the wing, so it makes sense to me for us to be at least competent in playing zone. When you've got average at best one on one defenders at a couple of positions on the floor, zone can cover up those defensive liabilities on occasion. That's all I'm saying. Nothing more.

And I'm saying I only see one player who would qualify as "average at best" on D. And while certain types of zone might cover up one liability, they would create others, as well. In fact, I think there are very few things a zone can do that good man-to-man (with active help) can't. Plus, it's much tougher to rebound out of a zone.

jipops
11-10-2007, 10:28 AM
from the N&O:

"No one played more than 24 minutes, so everyone did an extra 15 minutes of cardio after the game to keep up conditioning.

No one complained, either. When a team assistant yelled out that some bikes and machines were open to use, six players ran for the locker-room door to try to get there first. "

Wow. Got to like that kind of commitment.

YmoBeThere
11-10-2007, 10:41 AM
FWIW, K had a lot of fun at the press conference talking about the zone. He talked about satisfying the Duke fans and suggested that if Duke had used more zone over the years, Duke might have won three NCAA titles.

Duke calls its zone "Orange" as a tribute to Boeheim.

I think the zone is a useful option under certain circumstances but don't look for Duke to use it a lot. It'll give a different look, protect some guys in foul trouble, that sort of thing, but Duke is still going to predominantly be an in-your-face-m2m team on defense.

Perhaps I missed the joke, but we(Duke) did win 3 NCAA titles...didn't we?

Indoor66
11-10-2007, 11:22 AM
Perhaps I missed the joke, but we(Duke) did win 3 NCAA titles...didn't we?

I think that is the joke.

YmoBeThere
11-10-2007, 11:31 AM
Apparently I didn't pick up enough on his sense of humor during my 4 years in Durham...

phaedrus
11-10-2007, 11:49 AM
I should have looked it up rather than rely on my memory. Lazy.

We actually made 18 twice, in 2000 versus N.C. A&T and in 2001 versus Monmouth. Made 17 three times, once in 1999 and once in 2000.

Didn't JJ hit 18 treys against Texas at the Garden?

mepanchin
11-10-2007, 12:06 PM
18 3s is 54 points... pretty sure JJ never had more than like 41? or so

dkbaseball
11-10-2007, 12:15 PM
Apparently I didn't pick up enough on his sense of humor during my 4 years in Durham...

He actually has a fantastic sense of humor, except when he's being defensive about criticism, as he is here, where the humor doesn't come off. His customary response in recent years to questions from the press that might be construed as critical has been: "How many national championships have you won at Duke?" When he's not showing his thin skin, his sense of humor is among the best, as many recruits have noted, most recently Elliot Williams.

YmoBeThere
11-10-2007, 12:18 PM
18 3s is 54 points... pretty sure JJ never had more than like 41? or so


How can the legend grow if you stick to the facts?

Troublemaker
11-10-2007, 12:21 PM
K was actually in a really jovial mood in the post-game presser. He said that through Boeheim, he has finally learned how to coach zone, and then his actual quote was "If we had played zone prior to this season, we wouldn't have won 3 national championships" (due to him not knowing how to coach it). I'm not going to check (because who cares) but I'm 90% sure of this. He was being self-deprecating and funny, not defensive.

dkbaseball
11-10-2007, 12:31 PM
K was actually in a really jovial mood in the post-game presser. He said that through Boeheim, he has finally learned how to coach zone, and then his actual quote was "If we had played zone prior to this season, we wouldn't have won 3 national championships" (due to him not knowing how to coach it). I'm not going to check (because who cares) but I'm 90% sure of this. He was being self-deprecating and funny, not defensive.

That sounds much more likely. He seems to have a little more humility now, which I think is really going to serve this team well. When K is on the learning upcurve about things like X's and O's, he has no peer.

Lulu
11-10-2007, 01:31 PM
K was actually in a really jovial mood in the post-game presser. He said that through Boeheim, he has finally learned how to coach zone, and then his actual quote was "If we had played zone prior to this season, we wouldn't have won 3 national championships" (due to him not knowing how to coach it). I'm not going to check (because who cares) but I'm 90% sure of this. He was being self-deprecating and funny, not defensive.

I'm glad this is cleared up, because it was hard to hear what was being asked and I thought K had made some pretty snide remarks toward Duke fans. I thought they were probably talking about the style of play (pace) and K was defending not playing this style of offense earlier... It sounds much better knowing they were talking about the zone.

mapei
11-10-2007, 02:01 PM
K was actually in a really jovial mood in the post-game presser. He said that through Boeheim, he has finally learned how to coach zone, and then his actual quote was "If we had played zone prior to this season, we wouldn't have won 3 national championships" (due to him not knowing how to coach it). I'm not going to check (because who cares) but I'm 90% sure of this. He was being self-deprecating and funny, not defensive.

Sigh. Watch the 91 championship game. Duke played a lot of zone that night.

mapei
11-10-2007, 02:12 PM
I didn't see the game (is it still available on acc select?) but here are some things that jump out at me from the boxscore:

Good:
great 3-pt and FT %, already noted
4/1 asst/TO for Greg, and 6/0 from Jon
lots of guys getting lots of minutes

Not as good:
0/4 asst/TO for Nelson, and no steals from him, our supposedly best on-the-ball defender playing NCCU
Marty puts up 10 points, 2 assists, and 4 boards and still only gets 12 minutes, the lowest by far for anyone not named Jordan Davidson. For whatever reason, K prefers every other scholarship player on this team to Marty.

Time to start a Free Marty movement.

Troublemaker
11-10-2007, 02:14 PM
Sigh. Watch the 91 championship game. Duke played a lot of zone that night.

Are you calling me a liar or K? Because that's what he said. He probably didn't mean he's never ever ever played zone before, because that would be awkwardly literal, just that he's probably never coached it up the way he's doing it now after a couple of summers with Boeheim. That said, I still don't think zone will be incorporated that often this season.

Troublemaker
11-10-2007, 02:20 PM
I didn't see the game (is it still available on acc select?) but here are some things that jump out at me from the boxscore:

Good:
great 3-pt and FT %, already noted
4/1 asst/TO for Greg, and 6/0 from Jon
lots of guys getting lots of minutes

Not as good:
0/4 asst/TO for Nelson, and no steals from him, our supposedly best on-the-ball defender playing NCCU
Marty puts up 10 points, 2 assists, and 4 boards and still only gets 12 minutes, the lowest by far for anyone not named Jordan Davidson. For whatever reason, K prefers every other scholarship player on this team to Marty.

Time to start a Free Marty movement.

It's been just one game against an exhibition-quality opponent. Let's see a few more games before we make declarations one way or another on who deserves minutes. Also, you can be doing a fantastic job defending without getting steals.

mapei
11-10-2007, 02:22 PM
Easy there, fella. I am calling no one a "liar." I am refuting the widely-held supposition that K has always disdained playing zone. It simply ain't so.

Now it does seem to be true for at least the last decade or so, and thus the jokes that even K seems to enjoy. But I am sure that even he knows better.

Jumbo
11-10-2007, 02:32 PM
Holy unfounded conclusions and griping, Batman:


0/4 asst/TO for Nelson, and no steals from him, our supposedly best on-the-ball defender playing NCCU
Steals are not a measure of defensive effectiveness. See Bowen, Bruce for evidence.


Marty puts up 10 points, 2 assists, and 4 boards and still only gets 12 minutes, the lowest by far for anyone not named Jordan Davidson. For whatever reason, K prefers every other scholarship player on this team to Marty.

Time to start a Free Marty movement.

"No Blue Devil stood above the others, as nine players played 16-plus minutes, and junior Martynas Pocius would have played more than his 12 minutes if he hadn't sustained a bloody nose in the final minutes."

http://www.wral.com/sports/story/2026432/

Troublemaker
11-10-2007, 02:38 PM
Easy there, fella. I am calling no one a "liar." I am refuting the widely-held supposition that K has always disdained playing zone. It simply ain't so.

Now it does seem to be true for at least the last decade or so, and thus the jokes that even K seems to enjoy. But I am sure that even he knows better.

Well, if instead of "disdain for zone", we said "vast vast preference for m2m", I would have to agree with the supposition. He did mix it up a bit more back in the day but, I mean, we're talking about the difference between playing zone 1% of the time and playing it 5% of the time. I remember Duke going to zone in that game (good memory, mapei) and Billy Packer making a big deal out of it, saying K was "his own man" (apart from Knight) or something like that. But I wouldn't say he didn't have the "vast vast preference for m2m" then, either.

DukeCO2009
11-10-2007, 02:52 PM
Sad:
-Poor Zoubek. I'm still rooting for him, but those hands... Oy vey.


Zoubek scored 6 points, had 9 rebounds and 3 assists in 16 minutes. He is going to be great. It takes time for the big guys, and he is huge, to develop. I don't understand making this derogatory remark and then following it with praise to the team for supporting him. He also missed the summer due to his injury. Give the guy a break. This type of comment is unfair and uncalled for IMO.

There's nothing derogatory about an objective remark. I agree with you, though--let's cut Z a break until he's fully recovered. I'm not sure he can ever be great, but he can be a contributor, especially on the defensive end and under the glass. His size is an asset that no injury can take away from him, and if he can learn to use to effectively, he can be a Casey Sanders-type player, IMO. I do wish he'd dunk it once...

GMR
11-10-2007, 02:55 PM
Duke Fans,

Remember, it's March that really matters, not November. Our teams, in the past few years, seem to have been as good or perhaps even better early in the season versus later. I'm controlling my enthusiasm for this team to see how they improve and how they play against top caliber competition.

GMR

mapei
11-10-2007, 03:20 PM
All good points, but I guess I just think it's fun as a sports fan to talk about this stuff, picking up whatever cues we can from the little evidence we have on this team so far. Yeah, of course it doesn't necessarily portend anything one way or another for January, February and March. But it's still enjoyable to dissect the hell out of this stuff.

I do think the box score suggests that Greg and Jon had very good games while DeMarcus had a not-as-good one, but I'm perfectly willing to concede that I could be wrong on all three counts. I didn't see it.

Troublemaker, Packer's thought about the use of the zone in the final four that year (K used it both games, which I re-watched within the last 2 weeks) was to give Laettner more rest on D so he wouldn't have to take him out of the games.

My "free Marty" movement-in-the-making doesn't necessarily mean that I think K is wrong that he's only the 10th best player on the team (or 11th best when Dave comes back). Maybe more that the difference between 8th, 9th and 10th may not be all that great, and it's kinda too bad for Marty. If this hasn't happened yet, it probably won't, but I'd honestly rather see him transfer and get more of a chance at another school.

(I went to Georgetown's opener this afternoon, a much less impressive opening win. The Hoyas' "Marty" is Tyler Crawford, a very decent guard who got less than a minute of play, and he is likely to hover in the under-five-minutes category for the remainder of his college career. With two hot new freshman guards on the team, Tyler, once projected as a starter, is never going to get minutes.)

MChambers
11-10-2007, 03:33 PM
There's nothing derogatory about an objective remark. I agree with you, though--let's cut Z a break until he's fully recovered. I'm not sure he can ever be great, but he can be a contributor, especially on the defensive end and under the glass. His size is an asset that no injury can take away from him, and if he can learn to use to effectively, he can be a Casey Sanders-type player, IMO. I do wish he'd dunk it once...

Chuck Nevitt played parts of 9 seasons in the NBA. He was never particularly graceful, but if that is what Brian is headed for, we could do worse. I think he'll be a big contributor at some point in his Duke career. In any event, he seems like a great kid.

Indoor66
11-10-2007, 03:47 PM
Chuck Nevitt played parts of 9 seasons in the NBA. He was never particularly graceful, but if that is what Brian is headed for, we could do worse. I think he'll be a big contributor at some point in his Duke career. In any event, he seems like a great kid.

He also needs to add about 4 or 5 inches to be like Chuck.

dukestheheat
11-10-2007, 03:53 PM
1) we hit our free throws! (strength of opponent matters NOT at the FF stripe, and this one part of the game can make or break any team out there).
2) we are now scoring points in droves!
3) Singler, King and Smith are contributing from Day One.
4) we are rotating many players and this will help us immensely in March 2008.

it's obvious that we will be much more competitive this year and this'll be a fun year; if we keep up with 1-4 Duke is going to make some noise this year.

GO DUKE!

dth.

JasonEvans
11-10-2007, 03:59 PM
Didn't JJ hit 18 treys against Texas at the Garden?


18 3s is 54 points... pretty sure JJ never had more than like 41? or so

It is worth noting that these two posts came immediately after a series of posts discussing the fact that Coach K had told a joke and no one had gotten it.

That leads me to quote the following:
"Oh, ho, ho, irony! Oh, no, no, we don't get that here. See, uh, people ski topless here while smoking dope, so irony's not really a, a high priority. We haven't had any irony here since about, uh, '83, when I was the only practitioner of it. And I stopped because I was tired of being stared at."

-Jason

JBDuke
11-10-2007, 04:09 PM
It is worth noting that these two posts came immediately after a series of posts discussing the fact that Coach K had told a joke and no one had gotten it.

That leads me to quote the following:
"Oh, ho, ho, irony! Oh, no, no, we don't get that here. See, uh, people ski topless here while smoking dope, so irony's not really a, a high priority. We haven't had any irony here since about, uh, '83, when I was the only practitioner of it. And I stopped because I was tired of being stared at."

-Jason

How about this one?


I, uh, notice you don't have any tattoos. I think that's a wise choice. I don't think Jackie Onassis would've gone as far if she'd have had an anchor on her arm.

YmoBeThere
11-10-2007, 04:45 PM
It is worth noting that these two posts came immediately after a series of posts discussing the fact that Coach K had told a joke and no one had gotten it.

-Jason

I for one admit to being humor challenged...

Bluedawg
11-10-2007, 05:07 PM
King - I would have never said this before these first 3 games - but I would be surprised if he wasn't one of our top 3 scorers this season.

I've said it since day one. Glad someone is finally agreeing.

Carlos
11-10-2007, 05:33 PM
Thoughts on things raised this far in this thread...

Taylor King


Originally posted by Jumbo

As an aside, it's funny -- I don't even think of Dunleavy as a huge matchup nightmare, because his game was almost exclusively perimeter-oriented. So is King's. I think Deng was a tougher player to defend, and I think Singler will the biggest matchup problem for opponents this year.

I think you may misinterpreting what Cameron may have been saying WRT to matchup nightmare. It's not that King's game is so versatile that he's tough to defend, it's that when he's the second big he forces other PF's to defend in a manner they're unaccustomed. Now, the more interesting thought is what happens if the other team just simply plays a 6-6 athlete against him? All those matchup problems sort of go away and then you're looking at a situation where King's defending a quicker guy on the other end of the floor. I suppose that a potential positive there is that you're forcing the other team to play your game.

However, I'll add that I think you're underselling King's effectiveness on the inside. He actually has more of a balanced game than you give him credit for, it's just that his three-point shooting is what gets everyone's attention.

Finally, I'm leaning toward the under on the 10 ppg bet. So far if you include the two exhibition games he's averaging just over 11 but I don't expect him to be as productive when the competition picks up. Still, Duke's going to score more points this season and so 10 ppg isn't out of the question.


Zone

Let's face it, any zone out of Duke is significant. And while Duke may have been playing zone last night because they were up by 50 points, in previous seasons they would still be in a man in that situation. I'm pretty happy to see it even though it's not going to be as effective as the man defense. But what it will allow Duke to do is to present multiple looks in a game. If Duke plays 5 minutes a game then it's a big story.


Nelson

He's struggling on offense right now but defensively he's been Duke's most consistent performer.

Fish80
11-10-2007, 07:16 PM
Didn't JJ hit 18 treys against Texas at the Garden?

I was at that game, and I do recall JJ hit about 18 treys in the first half. JJ was hitting everything he threw up that game.

Would be fun to see a game of HORSE between JJ, Trajan, and Taylor King. Who else would you put in that game?

wisteria
11-10-2007, 07:34 PM
I was at that game, and I do recall JJ hit about 18 treys in the first half. JJ was hitting everything he threw up that game.

Would be fun to see a game of HORSE between JJ, Trajan, and Taylor King. Who else would you put in that game?

Wisteria telling her 15-year-old grandson in 2055, "What? They only hit 18 3' tonight? It's getting ridiculous. The Duke team in my time was waaaaaayyyyy much better. I still remember seeing JJ Redick scoring 63 points including 18 3s against No.2 Texas! "

:) just for fun.

dkbaseball
11-10-2007, 08:23 PM
Would be fun to see a game of HORSE between JJ, Trajan, and Taylor King. Who else would you put in that game?

Bob Verga, Tate Armstrong, Jeff Dawson, Chip Engelland -- if it's a distance shooting contest. Creative slams are a whole different category.

ACCBBallFan
11-10-2007, 09:54 PM
Zoubek may not win any style points but did garner team best 9 rebounds and 3 assists to offset his 3 turnovers.

Every player except Marty whose time was cut due to the elbow that resulted in a bloody nose, was top 2-3 in some major category.

Nolan 16 points (second best) and 4 assists (second best)
King top scorer with 20 points
Singler 15 points (tied for third best) and 8 boards (tied for second best)
Nelson 8 boards (tied for second best)
Henderson 15 points (tied for third best) and 2 steals (tied for second)
Lance led in steals with 4
Paulus 4 assists (second best)
Scheyer led team with 6 assists and 2 steals (tied for second)

Jumbo
11-10-2007, 10:04 PM
Still, Duke's going to score more points this season and so 10 ppg isn't out of the question.

That's a lot of points in a 40-minute college game. Lots of points require lots of minutes, and lots of shots. Where will the minutes come from? I have a hard time believing Singler won't get 30 minutes a game against decent opponents. Do you see King and Singler playing together much? I don't. I think it's unrealistic to expect to King to average more than 15 minutes a game this year, and even that might be a stretch. If he can score close to 10 ppg in that amount of playing time, more power to him.

ACCBBallFan
11-10-2007, 10:17 PM
That's a lot of points in a 40-minute college game. Lots of points require lots of minutes, and lots of shots. Where will the minutes come from? I have a hard time believing Singler won't get 30 minutes a game against decent opponents. Do you see King and Singler playing together much? I don't. I think it's unrealistic to expect to King to average more than 15 minutes a game this year, and even that might be a stretch. If he can score close to 10 ppg in that amount of playing time, more power to him.How many minutes King Taylor gets may be more a function of how much Zoubek fouls out and how productive Lance is. I would expect that once Dave gets back, Singler and McClure consume most of the minutes at the 4 spot.

I think Jumbo got the advantage on the signature bet as I would set the over/under of 7.5 rather than 10 on Kings PPG. As another poster already pointed out, Taylor is only averaging 11 against lesser competition and before McClure gets some forward minutes, plus Singler plays more in closer games.

Since Duke does not use numbers anyway, it matters not is you want to consider Singler the 5 after Zoubek and Lance, and label King as the 4 when he is on the floor with Singler. With both Singler and King presenting match up problems there would be a rationale for playing them together some.

That depends on game situation as Duke may want to protect leads by playing at least one of McClure/Lance despite their limitations on Offensive end.

Bob Green
11-10-2007, 11:22 PM
Do you see King and Singler playing together much? I don't. I think it's unrealistic to expect to King to average more than 15 minutes a game this year...

Following the Central game via the Internet, it appeared that Singler and Thomas were playing together and Zoubek and King were playing together. For those of you who were at the game or watched on Inside Access, how accurate is my impression?

snowdenscold
11-11-2007, 02:26 AM
1) we hit our free throws! (strength of opponent matters NOT at the FF stripe, and this one part of the game can make or break any team out there).

I wonder if it actually does depend on the opponent to an extent - mainly from a "pressure" perspective. If we're up by 50, then there's no pressure and they may be comfortable shooting them than if it's a close game where every FT matters...

mpj96
11-11-2007, 09:47 AM
I like seeing us go zone towards the end when we're letting up on the other side rather than play a half-hearted man to man. I only want to see our team play one kind of man defense and that is a take no prisoners, meat eating defense. I want to see that as this team's habit. I want our team's habit to be a killer instinct when playing man to man D.

Having two types of zone D -- one more intense and the other less so -- bothers me much less because we are so much less likely to use it on a sustained basis and are even less likely to trot it out during games where victory is strongly contested.

dukestheheat
11-11-2007, 12:44 PM
snowdenscold-

good point. maybe the player is thinking 'it's carolina and the game is within 5 points, i gotta hit these...' versus 'it's nccu and we're up by 60 points, go ahead and shoot it'.

i did see singler hit all of his FF if i recall it correctly, and that was heart-warming to me for sure. i hope he keeps it up; in fact, if he keeps playing the way he has been it might be tough to keep him at Duke for more than a year (which i certainly don't want to watch a defection but very clearly, he's entirely precocious).

dth.

mus074
11-11-2007, 02:26 PM
snowdenscold-

good point. maybe the player is thinking 'it's carolina and the game is within 5 points, i gotta hit these...' versus 'it's nccu and we're up by 60 points, go ahead and shoot it'.

i did see singler hit all of his FF if i recall it correctly, and that was heart-warming to me for sure. i hope he keeps it up; in fact, if he keeps playing the way he has been it might be tough to keep him at Duke for more than a year (which i certainly don't want to watch a defection but very clearly, he's entirely precocious).

dth.
Sounds like a good question for Ken Pomeroy. Maybe he could analyze FT %age across the range of opponent's pythag rating to see if its easier to hit FTs against easier competition. There might be some correlation for some teams whose FT skill would be sensitive to pressure/competition. But that does presuppose a better team is a higher pressure game, while a lesser team in a close match could make for more "choke-conscious" pressure.

Lord Ash
11-11-2007, 03:29 PM
Just off topic, Jumbo you BETTER not change your sig; I would miss that Steve Blake quote too much.

jimsumner
11-11-2007, 05:16 PM
"Following the Central game via the Internet, it appeared that Singler and Thomas were playing together and Zoubek and King were playing together. For those of you who were at the game or watched on Inside Access, how accurate is my impression?"

Reasonably accurate. Duke has played Singler and King together a few times this season. I'm not sure if Thomas and Zoubek have played together, however.

mepanchin
11-11-2007, 05:44 PM
Re: Nelson's defense.

The Central players he guarded shot 2 for 5 against him. That's 3 forced misses and 2 defensive field goals made. He also forced 1.5 turnovers even if he didn't have steals. When I recorded these, I gave credit for a multiple player effort. I think Nelson and another trapped a Central player who ended up traveling. He also had 6 defensive rebounds which was most on the team and about 28.6% of the possible defensive rebounds he could have gotten.

I'd say he had a pretty solid defensive night.

Boston Dukie
11-11-2007, 07:57 PM
I have yet to see any of the 3 games so far, but a common thread from all the post game discussions is that Zoubek is way behind and has not improved, but maybe got worse?

Having seen him last year, getting worse is a very, very bad sign. He needed to get much, much better, and now with the injury it sounds as if he is even further behind

Playing against a D2 school and being 7-1, any ACC caliber player would dominate. Giving him props for being aggressive is just a scary thought

At the same time - Henderson, Scheyer and Thomas all seem to have improved. All 3 freshman seem ready, and even Marty is back. Zoubek is never going to play (not that he should if everyone else is playing well)

So my question - is there any chance at all of any top flight big man next year not that Monroe is out? Maybe even a transfer, Juco, commitment drop with a coaching change, anything?

elvis14
11-11-2007, 10:23 PM
I was able to attend Friday night's game vs. NCCU. I had a press pass and was seated courtside in front of the Crazies and right next to the cheerleaders and the mascot. I was with a friend who is basketball knowledgeable but not a Duke fan. Here's a few thoughts:

It's really cool to watch the game that close because you get such a feel for the real speed of the game. To say that I enjoyed myself is a huge understatement.
It was hard not to be impressed by Duke's performance. It was so cool the way we played with such depth and pace. So many guys played well. My optimism is still strong.
I was impressed with Central. Not their level of play, obviously we out classed them. What impressed me was that they played hard the whole game. Down by 50 points they still played hard, didn't get overly physical, look for cheap shots, etc.
Zoubek's new nickname: Roberto Duran
My buddy made a few observations during the game. He also was impressed by the number of skilled Duke players (our depth). He really liked Singler's game. He thought one of our players was "awful". He thought our execution was great and is interested to see how we fare against larger teams.
I love it when Marty gets playing time. I thought he played well and hope he can continue to contribute. Wish McClure could have played as well, I loved his game last year.
Speaking of having Marty contribute, I really hope we continue to use a long bench, push the ball, and keep fresh legs on the court.
Henderson's alley-oop. That was sweet, wish it was on my end of the court. I continue to think that he may reach an incredible level of play this year now that he's starting the year healthy.
I really like our 3 freshman. What I like even more is how they fit with the team and really make us more competitive. I also like how they are so different from each other.
I can't wait to see Monday night's game to see how we play against a bigger and better team. I don't get to go to many games so getting to see our first 2 games in person has me even more geeked for this team and this season.

ACCBBallFan
11-12-2007, 07:09 AM
"Following the Central game via the Internet, it appeared that Singler and Thomas were playing together and Zoubek and King were playing together. For those of you who were at the game or watched on Inside Access, how accurate is my impression?"

Reasonably accurate. Duke has played Singler and King together a few times this season. I'm not sure if Thomas and Zoubek have played together, however.Lance and Zoubek together is not a good combination. Zoubek is vulnerable to the double team and not having a better offensive threat like King or Singler makes that too easy. Ditto for why Dave McClure when back should not be paired with Zoubek or Lance. IMO, almost always need at least one of Singler and King on the floor, sometimes both.

I actually think King pairs better with Lance and Zoubek with Singler who is a better wing defender than King. That way King Taylor can play post defender and Lance can guard the more mobile big.

It will be interesting to see the combinations once Dave is back. My guess is that Singler/McClure man the 4 and Zoubek, Lance and King are post defender by committee, but none of those guys pair as wel with Dave as Kyle would, as King/McClure is awfully short. So there is an argument for having Singler/Lance each play their natural 4 position when paired with Zoubek/King but Kyle be considered the 5 when paired with McClure.

Singler paired with any of Zoubek-Lance-King-McClure
King paired with Lance or Singler
Lance paired with King or Sngler
Zoubek paired mostly with Singler
McClure paired mostly with Singler

which is another way of saying that after possibly starting Singler and Lance, thereafter

King and Lance are usually on the floor together whenever Singler is resting and

Singler (4) teams with Zoubek (5), King (5) or Lance (5) or Singler (5) teams with Dave (4).

JasonEvans
11-12-2007, 07:54 AM
Zoubek's new nickname: Roberto Duran


Ok, that was subtle and funny! Nice one.

Bluedog
11-12-2007, 02:50 PM
"Krzyzewski felt his team played fairly well in the zone-called "orange" in honor of Syracuse head coach Jim Boeheim-and will continue to employ it throughout the year.

'I send tapes after each game to Boeheim and he critiques me,' Krzyzewski said. 'You got two guys who are over 60, and this is how we get off in life now-by sharing tapes of his damn zone. I've learned to teach it and all the Duke fans are happy now.' "

Ha! I like it how he acknowledges that lots of fans want to see Duke employ the zone more often. Kinda funny.