The Last Dance

[dukelifer]

I watched the first two episodes of the story of the Bulls last championship season. This was really entertaining- and a fascinating glimpse into professional basketball at the time. They do a nice job of showing the history of the key players and Jerry Krause is the clear villain in this story. I did not really know Scottie Pippen's story- how he entered college as a 6' 1" guard - eventually got a scholarship and somehow grew 7 inches in a couple of years and began to dominate. But at some point, because he was worried about providing for his extended family, he took a long term 18M contract just at the time salaries were exploding and the Bulls never let him renegotiate. They also told a 5 time championship coach in Jackson- even if you win 82 games next year- you will not be back. Just amazing.

[left_hook_lacey]

I watched the first two episodes of the story of the Bulls last championship season. This was really entertaining- and a fascinating glimpse into professional basketball at the time. They do a nice job of showing the history of the key players and Jerry Krause is the clear villain in this story. I did not really know Scottie Pippen's story- how he entered college as a 6' 1" guard - eventually got a scholarship and somehow grew 7 inches in a couple of years and began to dominate. But at some point, because he was worried about providing for his extended family, he took a long term 18M contract just at the time salaries were exploding and the Bulls never let him renegotiate. They also told a 5 time championship coach in Jackson- even if you win 82 games next year- you will not be back. Just amazing.

I knew everything in your post except for the last statement about Jackson. What??!! What was their reasoning behind that? I plan to get around to watching it, but in this day and age of binge watching, I don't like to start anything until many or all of the episodes are available. Streaming services have spoiled us.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I knew everything in your post except for the last statement about Jackson. What??!! What was their reasoning behind that? I plan to get around to watching it, but in this day and age of binge watching, I don't like to start anything until many or all of the episodes are available. Streaming services have spoiled us.

Jerry Krause was emphatic on that point. They would begin rebuilding the following year, regardless of the results. It seems completely insane, but in the context of the show, he is incredibly jealous of the attention and credit given to MJ, Scottie, Rodman, and Phil.

I hope they will offer some airtime to Jerry, as I sincerely doubt it was as one-sided as they have made it out to be.

[MartyClark]

Jerry Krause was emphatic on that point. They would begin rebuilding the following year, regardless of the results. It seems completely insane, but in the context of the show, he is incredibly jealous of the attention and credit given to MJ, Scottie, Rodman, and Phil.

I hope they will offer some airtime to Jerry, as I sincerely doubt it was as one-sided as they have made it out to be.

Jerry Krause is deceased.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Jerry Krause is deceased.

Well, I didn't mean in real time. They had soundbites from David Stern.

[Jeffrey]

Is ESPN showing episodes more than once?

[J4Kop99]

Is ESPN showing episodes more than once?

As I understand it, there will be two new episodes each Sunday at 9&10pm est. The previous weeks episodes will air beforehand. Not sure if they will also replay throughout the week.

Next week should be:

Sunday: Episode 1 at 7pm, Episode 2 at 8pm, Episode 3 at 9 and Episode 4 at 10.

[roywhite]

Really interesting first two episodes.

Among those who recognized early just how great Jordan was?
Bobby Knight, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird

[Jeffrey]

As I understand it, there will be two new episodes each Sunday at 9&10pm est. The previous weeks episodes will air beforehand. Not sure if they will also replay throughout the week.

Next week should be:

Sunday: Episode 1 at 7pm, Episode 2 at 8pm, Episode 3 at 9 and Episode 4 at 10.

Thank you, that’s great news!

[J4Kop99]

Well, I didn't mean in real time. They had soundbites from David Stern.

Krause did die in 2017. However, they did include a few soundbites from JK in episode #2 last night. Those were clearly not recent. I'm sure they will have more as we go on. I remember the whole JK, MJ, SP, PJ saga quite well and always sided with the players and coach but I still felt last nights episodes were a bit lopsided against JK.

I do love that nobody made the connection between the villain in Space Jam and Jerry Krause until now... I thought that was quote obvious at the time haha.


-In terms of interviews for the documentary. David Stern was actually interviewed before his death. Same with Kobe Bryant. Kobe's took place about a week before his passing if I'm not mistaken.

[brevity]

Is ESPN showing episodes more than once?


As I understand it, there will be two new episodes each Sunday at 9&10pm est. The previous weeks episodes will air beforehand. Not sure if they will also replay throughout the week.

Next week should be:

Sunday: Episode 1 at 7pm, Episode 2 at 8pm, Episode 3 at 9 and Episode 4 at 10.

I just checked ESPN's upcoming schedule for Sunday, and the times (Eastern) for Episodes 1-4 are correct.

You can also stream the first two episodes on the website. (Not sure if it works for those who don't get ESPN from any service provider.)

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Really interesting first two episodes.

Among those who recognized early just how great Jordan was?
Bobby Knight, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird

How about Dean Smith?

[J4Kop99]

How about Dean Smith?

And, dare I say it... Ol' Roy -- although if we're being honest, he was most likely just nodding and saying "yes sir" to Dean.

[dukelifer]

Krause did die in 2017. However, they did include a few soundbites from JK in episode #2 last night. Those were clearly not recent. I'm sure they will have more as we go on. I remember the whole JK, MJ, SP, PJ saga quite well and always sided with the players and coach but I still felt last nights episodes were a bit lopsided against JK.

I do love that nobody made the connection between the villain in Space Jam and Jerry Krause until now... I thought that was quote obvious at the time haha.


-In terms of interviews for the documentary. David Stern was actually interviewed before his death. Same with Kobe Bryant. Kobe's took place about a week before his passing if I'm not mistaken.

Some of it came across as it is not personal - it is business-but still. Clearly- resulting in a lot of bad feelings. The story of Jordan's broken foot during his second year was very interesting, with some docs saying if he came back too soon and re-injured it- it may never heal- and his career would be over - and Jordan still pushed it. So much good stuff.

[Hingeknocker]

After the first episode, I definitely noticed the "Krause as villain" storyline that others have already mentioned. I'm a bit concerned that Krause (the dead guy) is being portrayed as the villain while Reinsdorf (the very much alive guy who was Krause's boss, remains an NBA owner to this day, and gave Krause the job in the first place just because Krause asked for it) gets to come across as an authority figure. Does not bode well for the fair telling of history that I'd expect from a documentary, especially one as hyped as this one.

That said, the sniping comments from Bulls players about Krause were definitely eye-opening to me. There was clear acrimony there and Krause certainly deserves his share of the blame.

[JasonEvans]

Just so we are all clear, Jordan had a fair bit of creative control over the project and it could not proceed without his agreement to release the footage. I'm not saying that making Krause the villain is unfair or inaccurate, but he would not be portrayed that way if Jordan had not approved of it.

[wsb3]

This inspired me to watch Jordan's last college game. Packer called game over with over 5 minutes to go and Indiana up 12. They then missed the front end of several one & ones and UNC cut it to two a few times. I always thought this was one of the bigger upsets in College Basketball.

This was an article from the archives. https://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/23/sports/indianan-stuns-top-ranked-north-carolina-in-east.html

Couple of excerpts..

Coach Terry Holland of Virginia said, ''Carolina is the finest team I have ever seen put together.''

Indiana's victory so stunned Coach Dean Smith, the Tar Heel coach, that he uncharacteristically cut short his post-game news conference after talking for only a couple of minutes. Smith, who was expected to go on with this No. 1 team to win his second N.C.A.A. championship in his 23 seasons as Carolina coach, will have to settle for another of his many also- ran tournaments and another upset by Indiana.

[CDu]

After the first episode, I definitely noticed the "Krause as villain" storyline that others have already mentioned. I'm a bit concerned that Krause (the dead guy) is being portrayed as the villain while Reinsdorf (the very much alive guy who was Krause's boss, remains an NBA owner to this day, and gave Krause the job in the first place just because Krause asked for it) gets to come across as an authority figure. Does not bode well for the fair telling of history that I'd expect from a documentary, especially one as hyped as this one.

That said, the sniping comments from Bulls players about Krause were definitely eye-opening to me. There was clear acrimony there and Krause certainly deserves his share of the blame.

Yeah, Reinsdorf is not a very popular guy among Bulls fans. It is widely believed - and there are quotes backing it up - that basketball is just business for him but baseball (White Sox) is his passion. So I don't doubt for a minute that Reinsdorf was at least in part behind the dismantling of the Bulls. Jordan, Pippen, and Jackson cost an exorbitant amount of money for that era - it wasn't for nearly two decades later that anyone matched Jordan's per-year salary in the last couple of years of his Bulls tenure, and Pippen was finally going to cost real money - and that made it difficult for the Bulls to remain profitable. Plus, Jordan was entering his decline phase, and his on-court value was going to fall below his salary quickly. I'm sure that played into the decisions. Well, that and that eventually people get tired of each other. Jackson, Pippen, and Jordan had been there for a decade (more in the cases of Jordan and Pippen) at that point.

Though I am sure that Krause (who was a basketball scout to begin his career) didn't need much pushing; he was, after all, a scout first and foremost, and that was his passion. He contributed significantly in building that championship: identifying Jackson; drafting Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, and Kukoc; acquiring Rodman for Will Perdue; signing Harper. I'm sure he was ready for his next challenge too, and I'm sure he was indeed very jealous of the credit that the players and especially Jackson (the guy he brought in to run the ship) got.

But he's an easy patsy now that he's dead.


Just so we are all clear, Jordan had a fair bit of creative control over the project and it could not proceed without his agreement to release the footage. I'm not saying that making Krause the villain is unfair or inaccurate, but he would not be portrayed that way if Jordan had not approved of it.

Also a very fair point. History is usually told through the eyes of the one telling the story. Jordan respected Reinsdorf and shares a solid relationship with him (especially now that they are colleagues) and revered Jackson; but he hated Krause. So I'm quite sure he's going to tell the story more favorably for him and Jackson and more negatively for Krause, especially since Krause can't defend himself now.

The reality is probably that that group had MAYBE one more title in it. Maybe. But it was a team that was getting old and expensive and disinterested. Jordan was going to be 35 and had just made $63 million the prior 2 seasons and would likely ask for $35+ million to continue; Pippen was 33 and was finally going to command a salary more commensurate with his talent (he signed a bad long-term deal right before salaries started rising that ended after 1998); Rodman would be 37 and a free agent; Harper would be 35; Kukoc would be 30 and hadn't become the star that could carry the team into the next generation; even Jackson was a wayward spirit who wears organizations out over time, and was a free agent. And none of the younger players were good enough to make up for the declining stars. There just wasn't much shelf-life left in that team. So rather than let that group fade into expensive decline, the org ran it back one last time and said it was time to move on.

[uh_no]

Really interesting first two episodes.

Among those who recognized early just how great Jordan was?
Bobby Knight, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird

eh. it's a survivorship bias. How many players did they also think would be great but weren't and they don't even remember thinking it because that person faded into obscurity. Their thinking now is almost assuredly biased by the fact that he did become great.

I could say I knew Duke would be great in 2010. But that doesn't mean much if I say we'll be great at the beginning of EVERY year.

I'm sure the same kind of bias applies to some degree in their statements.

[Billy Dat]

eh. it's a survivorship bias. How many players did they also think would be great but weren't and they don't even remember thinking it because that person faded into obscurity. Their thinking now is almost assuredly biased by the fact that he did become great.

I could say I knew Duke would be great in 2010. But that doesn't mean much if I say we'll be great at the beginning of EVERY year.

I'm sure the same kind of bias applies to some degree in their statements.

To be fair, Bob Knight says during the 1984 Olympics that Jordan is the best player he has ever seen in his life.

"Just an absolutely great kid. If I was going to pick the three or four best athletes I've ever seen play basketball, he'd be one of them. I think he's the best athlete I've ever seen play basketball, bar none. If I were going to pick people with the best ability I'd ever seen play the game, he'd be one. If I wanted to pick the best competitors I'd ever seen play, he'd be one of them. So in the categories of competitiveness and ability, skill and athletic ability, he's the best athlete. ... That, to me, makes him the best basketball player I've ever seen play."

And Bird said the following after the epic 63 point game against the C's in Jordan's second year.

"I didn't think anyone was capable of doing what Michael has done to us. He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it's just God disguised as Michael Jordan."

I don't think Knight and Bird said those things about too many players.

Magic, on the other hand, may have thought those things but he wouldn't give it up at the time. I don't think there's any record of him giving Jordan his propers until years later.

[devilirium]

Jerry Krause is deceased.

Yes, that would be truly miraculous !

[dukelifer]

To be fair, Bob Knight says during the 1984 Olympics that Jordan is the best player he has ever seen in his life.

"Just an absolutely great kid. If I was going to pick the three or four best athletes I've ever seen play basketball, he'd be one of them. I think he's the best athlete I've ever seen play basketball, bar none. If I were going to pick people with the best ability I'd ever seen play the game, he'd be one. If I wanted to pick the best competitors I'd ever seen play, he'd be one of them. So in the categories of competitiveness and ability, skill and athletic ability, he's the best athlete. ... That, to me, makes him the best basketball player I've ever seen play."

And Bird said the following after the epic 63 point game against the C's in Jordan's second year.

"I didn't think anyone was capable of doing what Michael has done to us. He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it's just God disguised as Michael Jordan."

I don't think Knight and Bird said those things about too many players.

Magic, on the other hand, may have thought those things but he wouldn't give it up at the time. I don't think there's any record of him giving Jordan his propers until years later.

I was pretty much convinced after those games in Boston. Never saw anyone do what he did. No one could stop him. Of course I did not post it because no DBR at the time ;)

[robed deity]

To be fair, Bob Knight says during the 1984 Olympics that Jordan is the best player he has ever seen in his life.

"Just an absolutely great kid. If I was going to pick the three or four best athletes I've ever seen play basketball, he'd be one of them. I think he's the best athlete I've ever seen play basketball, bar none. If I were going to pick people with the best ability I'd ever seen play the game, he'd be one. If I wanted to pick the best competitors I'd ever seen play, he'd be one of them. So in the categories of competitiveness and ability, skill and athletic ability, he's the best athlete. ... That, to me, makes him the best basketball player I've ever seen play."

And Bird said the following after the epic 63 point game against the C's in Jordan's second year.

"I didn't think anyone was capable of doing what Michael has done to us. He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it's just God disguised as Michael Jordan."

I don't think Knight and Bird said those things about too many players.

Magic, on the other hand, may have thought those things but he wouldn't give it up at the time. I don't think there's any record of him giving Jordan his propers until years later.

Yeah, that was one of the things that stuck out to me from the first couple eps. I was too young to really watch those Olympics, so I guess I never really knew how much he dominated there. And still pretty amazing that Knight said those things about a guy who had not played an NBA game and wasn't even the top pick. Knight knows his stuff.

[Natty_B]

The whole thing has a serious whiff of Jordan hagiography. Not a surprise since that fits MJ’s m.o. He was always very brand conscious even for a celebrity. The fact that he wasn’t interested in releasing the footage until LeBron won in 2016 is hilarious. I found this NYT piece insightful: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/sports/basketball/michael-jordan-last-dance-legacy-lebron.html

[Tripping William]

Yeah, I know how this thing ends. MJ shoves-off Bryon Russell and gets away with it. Kinda like Jordan’s alma mater.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

The whole thing has a serious whiff of Jordan hagiography. Not a surprise since that fits MJ’s m.o. He was always very brand conscious even for a celebrity. The fact that he wasn’t interested in releasing the footage until LeBron won in 2016 is hilarious. I found this NYT piece insightful: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/sports/basketball/michael-jordan-last-dance-legacy-lebron.html

It's definitely the counterpoint to his HOF induction.

[Hingeknocker]

The whole thing has a serious whiff of Jordan hagiography. Not a surprise since that fits MJ’s m.o. He was always very brand conscious even for a celebrity. The fact that he wasn’t interested in releasing the footage until LeBron won in 2016 is hilarious. I found this NYT piece insightful: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/sports/basketball/michael-jordan-last-dance-legacy-lebron.html

I'm really struggling with the hype of "best documentary ever" that preceded this thing. At its best, ESPN is capable of truly great documentaries (like OJ Made In America). But it's also capable of the worst kind of hagiography.

I know it's only 2 episodes in, but I fear it's going to be the latter. The thing about the doc getting greenlit in the aftermath of the Cavs title in 2016 is, as you say, hilarious.

[wsb3]

I'm really struggling with the hype of "best documentary ever" that preceded this thing. At its best, ESPN is capable of truly great documentaries (like OJ Made In America). But it's also capable of the worst kind of hagiography.

I know it's only 2 episodes in, but I fear it's going to be the latter. The thing about the doc getting greenlit in the aftermath of the Cavs title in 2016 is, as you say, hilarious.

I can't speak to the Jordan Documentary as I have not seen it but I have personally thought that many of the earlier 30 for 30 shows were excellent. But as time, as gone on I, have found the stories to be not as enjoyful or interesting.

[WWBD]

Ol’ Roy really has nothing useful to add, does he? Oh sure, you “knew he was the best basketball player on the planet” after summer camp. If Roy dropped his persona every once in a while, he might actually have something honest or insightful to add.

[Hingeknocker]

I just watched Episode 2. The whole discussion around Scottie Pippen and his feelings on his contract during the 1997-98 season were very interesting. However, here is a very good write up that provides much more context than the documentary did:

https://earlybirdrights.com/2020/04/20/the-last-dance-scottie-pippen-salary-michael-jordan-chicago-bulls-jerry-krause/

I don't want to keep harping on this point, but if the operator of earlybirdrights dot com can come up with this context the day after this episode aired, surely the "greatest sports documentary ever made" could have fit this in somewhere? Specifically, the doc rightly makes the point that Pippen had the 122nd highest contract in 97-98, but it's a massive disservice to not mention that he had the 8th highest in 92-93, during that same contract.

[kako]

I often say that MJ and I have things in common. I say that we both grew up in NC, graduated high school in the same year, and we both matriculated in the Triangle area... at which point I note that other than being male, the comparisons stop.

For the record, after watching Jordan early on in the pros, he became the one ex-Carolina guy that I didn't hate. Kind of impossible to hate someone so talented. Don't get me wrong - I didn't love MJ. I just didn't absolutely loathe him like every other ex-Tarheel.

I thought the two episodes so far were very good. Perhaps it's that there are no other sports to watch, but at least this is something for hoops fans to look forward to with anticipation. It does seem a bit unfair that Krause won't be there to defend himself. However, I do wonder what GM would tear apart a multi-season championship team unless there was some kind of hidden agenda. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Arguments to the contrary (the team was old, it couldn't last, etc.) seem to point more towards Krause's ego or Reinsdorf's pocketbook. And certainly after '98, I think the Bulls missed the playoffs for 6 straight years, never even sniffing the post-season. Hindsight is 20/20, but it was pretty damn clear that tearing the team apart was a big mistake. Anyway, I'll wait for next Sunday to watch the next 2 episodes.

I never endorse anyone holding out on a signed contract. And I used to think Pippin was kind of a tool for that, plus for his not going back in at the end of the game in the playoffs in '94. But he seems like he was truly concerned about taking care of his family by lifting them out of poverty, and he just mistimed things with the NBA explosion in contracts. If I was one of the top 10 players int he NBA, and I was paid like the 122nd best player, I might be a little pissed off, too, especially if Krause was the guy on the other side of the table.

Finally, I was at the game in Cameron where Jordan hit his head on the backboard trying to block Dawkins' shot. It was called goaltending. I remember not realizing he hit his head, and I don't think many in the crowd did. This was way before a jumbotron in Cameron. We were all just happy it was goaltending. I thought he hurt himself on the fall. It was only later watching ESPN that I realized how high he actually got... I was so happy when he went pro early. One could argue that with Jordan not being there for his senior year, it allowed Duke's confidence to grow towards the Class of '86's run. Not sure if Duke beats Carolina in the '84-'85 season, especially knowing MJ's competitive fire and his never forgetting a slight (Duke beat Carolina in the ACC's the season before).

9F

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'm really struggling with the hype of "best documentary ever" that preceded this thing. At its best, ESPN is capable of truly great documentaries (like OJ Made In America). But it's also capable of the worst kind of hagiography.

I know it's only 2 episodes in, but I fear it's going to be the latter. The thing about the doc getting greenlit in the aftermath of the Cavs title in 2016 is, as you say, hilarious.

Well, ESPN is certainly benefitting from the massive thirst we have for sports, AND our general excitement over all things nostalgic.

It seems well-enough done, and clearly there's nothing else to promote. Might as well call it the best.

[subzero02]

Is ESPN showing episodes more than once?

They are available to stream via the watch menu on ESPN's website. Suprisingly there are 2 versions available of each episode; one in which the players drop repeated F-bombs and one in which they don't. I preferred to hear from the players in their true forms.

[Truth&Justise]

Jerry Krause was emphatic on that point. They would begin rebuilding the following year, regardless of the results. It seems completely insane, but in the context of the show, he is incredibly jealous of the attention and credit given to MJ, Scottie, Rodman, and Phil.


I don't doubt for a minute that Reinsdorf was at least in part behind the dismantling of the Bulls. Jordan, Pippen, and Jackson cost an exorbitant amount of money for that era - it wasn't for nearly two decades later that anyone matched Jordan's per-year salary in the last couple of years of his Bulls tenure, and Pippen was finally going to cost real money - and that made it difficult for the Bulls to remain profitable. Plus, Jordan was entering his decline phase, and his on-court value was going to fall below his salary quickly. I'm sure that played into the decisions. Well, that and that eventually people get tired of each other. Jackson, Pippen, and Jordan had been there for a decade (more in the cases of Jordan and Pippen) at that point.

Though I am sure that Krause (who was a basketball scout to begin his career) didn't need much pushing; he was, after all, a scout first and foremost, and that was his passion. He contributed significantly in building that championship: identifying Jackson; drafting Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, and Kukoc; acquiring Rodman for Will Perdue; signing Harper. I'm sure he was ready for his next challenge too, and I'm sure he was indeed very jealous of the credit that the players and especially Jackson (the guy he brought in to run the ship) got.

But he's an easy patsy now that he's dead.

. . .

The reality is probably that that group had MAYBE one more title in it. Maybe. But it was a team that was getting old and expensive and disinterested. Jordan was going to be 35 and had just made $63 million the prior 2 seasons and would likely ask for $35+ million to continue; Pippen was 33 and was finally going to command a salary more commensurate with his talent (he signed a bad long-term deal right before salaries started rising that ended after 1998); Rodman would be 37 and a free agent; Harper would be 35; Kukoc would be 30 and hadn't become the star that could carry the team into the next generation; even Jackson was a wayward spirit who wears organizations out over time, and was a free agent. And none of the younger players were good enough to make up for the declining stars. There just wasn't much shelf-life left in that team. So rather than let that group fade into expensive decline, the org ran it back one last time and said it was time to move on.


It does seem a bit unfair that Krause won't be there to defend himself. However, I do wonder what GM would tear apart a multi-season championship team unless there was some kind of hidden agenda. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Arguments to the contrary (the team was old, it couldn't last, etc.) seem to point more towards Krause's ego or Reinsdorf's pocketbook. And certainly after '98, I think the Bulls missed the playoffs for 6 straight years, never even sniffing the post-season. Hindsight is 20/20, but it was pretty damn clear that tearing the team apart was a big mistake.

Some have touched on this point before, but I want to posit that it's not so different from the situation we repeatedly see today, where a team that has hit a ceiling decides to trade players for future assets before they're left with nothing. The NBA is full of examples on the micro level (trading a star under contract before letting them walk in free agency) and macro (a team like the recent Grizzlies or Thunder or 76ers realizing they couldn't win a title and it was time to restart).

Obviously the stakes were different here, as the "ceiling" was a championship-winning team. But it was going to start falling back to earth quickly. Even if everyone in the organization got along and money was no issue (assumptions that are never true!), guys get older, it's hard to maintain competitive fire, and other teams become even more motivated to take you down. These Bulls could not have held off Duncan and Shaq forever. And we know it was not an easy task for them to win in 1998--if it had been, we wouldn't have this documentary! It took a herculean effort. And one could even argue that knowing it was the "last dance" helped motivate them to get up over the hill one last time.

So if you're a GM, and you've got to worry about the long-term future of the organization, would you trade one more year of title contention for future assets? Or let it all ride for one last year, and then be left with nothing? People chide the Bulls for bottoming out after 1998, but that was the price for being competitive in 1998.

All told I agree the right move was to keep the team together for 1998 (and maybe leave open the possibility to try in 1999), but it's a lot more complicated and nuanced than "Jerry Krause is a petty and egotistical idiot," which is what the documentary seems to be hinting at.

[Hingeknocker]

Well, ESPN is certainly benefitting from the massive thirst we have for sports, AND our general excitement over all things nostalgic.

It seems well-enough done, and clearly there's nothing else to promote. Might as well call it the best.

Well hey, I watched both episodes and will definitely watch the rest, so I'm not complaining that this content is here to fill the void :D.

But this doc was getting tons of hype all the way back when it was announced, and because of that peopled clamored for it to be released early once everything else got shut down. I was hoping that it would be a truly revealing documentary at the level of OJ: Made In America, but this thing ain't winning any Emmys. Sure, it's well-enough done, but it's just a fancy Michael Jordan, Inc. commercial so far.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Well hey, I watched both episodes and will definitely watch the rest, so I'm not complaining that this content is here to fill the void :D.

But this doc was getting tons of hype all the way back when it was announced, and because of that peopled clamored for it to be released early once everything else got shut down. I was hoping that it would be a truly revealing documentary at the level of OJ: Made In America, but this thing ain't winning any Emmys. Sure, it's well-enough done, but it's just a fancy Michael Jordan, Inc. commercial so far.

Well, MJ is the one player who has probably "earned" such a treatment. He was the OG "superstar" crossing all culture lines, omnipresent on all three networks, appointment television. He was larger than life.

I think LeBron is by far a better basketball player, but you can't even begin to explain to a Millennial what MJ was like in his prime.

Perhaps I'm biased based on my age, but as a basketball fanatic teen in the late 80s and early 90s, it's impossible to overstate the impact he had on my childhood, and every who I knew with similar interests.

[CDu]

So if you're a GM, and you've got to worry about the long-term future of the organization, would you trade one more year of title contention for future assets? Or let it all ride for one last year, and then be left with nothing? People chide the Bulls for bottoming out after 1998, but that was the price for being competitive in 1998.

All told I agree the right move was to keep the team together for 1998 (and maybe leave open the possibility to try in 1999), but it's a lot more complicated and nuanced than "Jerry Krause is a petty and egotistical idiot," which is what the documentary seems to be hinting at.

Yeah, basically they let Jordan and Jackson "retire", let Rodman walk, then traded off several pieces (Kerr, Pippen, and Longley the first year; Kukoc the next), eventually released Ron Harper. They didn't get a TON back in trades (basically three 1sts and a 2nd), but they did restock. And things looked promising: they drafted Brand with their pick in 1999, and drafted Artest with one of their acquired picks. But they then blew it in the next two drafts: in 2000 drafting Marcus Fizer with their pick, draft/trading for Jamal Crawford with one of their acquired 1sts, and drafting Dalibor Bagaric with their other acquired 1st; in 2001 trading Brand for the right to draft Tyson Chandler, and then pairing him with Eddy Curry.

In hindsight, stockpiling picks for the 2000 draft was a really bad idea. That draft was historically weak. But then they compounded their mistake by drafting Curry and trading for Chandler rather than having LA draft Pau Gasol for them and then drafting, say, Jason Richardson or Battier or Joe Johnson or Zach Randolph.

But that's getting into the weeds. Getting back to the 1998 year, yeah I don't think that group would have won in the 1999 season had they kept it together. And it's possible that they wouldn't have won in 1998 had they not known it was the last go-round. That team was already really old and exhausted from 2 straight championship runs and the 72-win season.

[AZLA]

Well, MJ is the one player who has probably "earned" such a treatment. He was the OG "superstar" crossing all culture lines, omnipresent on all three networks, appointment television. He was larger than life.

I think LeBron is by far a better basketball player, but you can't even begin to explain to a Millennial what MJ was like in his prime.

Perhaps I'm biased based on my age, but as a basketball fanatic teen in the late 80s and early 90s, it's impossible to overstate the impact he had on my childhood, and every who I knew with similar interests.

Great post. However, I don't agree that LeBron is or was better, let alone "by far" compared to MJ. MJ's competitive will, speed, jumping, shooting, athleticism, defense, creativeness, and ability to take hits in a league when Jordan Rules were in effect and people actually made contact (and defense was allowed to play physical defense). LeBron is a better passer, especially when it comes to making championship winning shots ;) . Honestly, one-on-one you'd take MJ in his prime over LeBron? That's cool. I respect your opinion. They're close to one another. But MJs sheer will to outwork, out hustle, and beat any and all takers is next level. He was a steely-eyed assassin who mentally played at the highest level of toughness and competitiveness -- on a personal level -- and he had the talent to boot. I just see MJ eating his lunch in a game of 1-on-1.

[PackMan97]

Q. Who is the only person that has been able to hold Jordan to under 20 points per game?

A. Coach Dean Smith

--------------------

9f them all. This is why I don't have ESPN.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Great post. However, I don't agree that LeBron is or was better, let alone "by far" compared to MJ. MJ's competitive will, speed, jumping, shooting, athleticism, defense, creativeness, and ability to take hits in a league when Jordan Rules were in effect and people actually made contact (and defense was allowed to play physical defense). LeBron is a better passer, especially when it comes to making championship winning shots ;) . Honestly, one-on-one you'd take MJ in his prime over LeBron? That's cool. I respect your opinion. They're close to one another. But MJs sheer will to outwork, out hustle, and beat any and all takers is next level. He was a steely-eyed assassin who mentally played at the highest level of toughness and competitiveness -- on a personal level -- and he had the talent to boot. I just see MJ eating his lunch in a game of 1-on-1.

I'm inclined to agree that MJ would win one on one. And that he's the consummate competitor. But, LeBron is a far better teammate who makes those around him better on the court. Jordan shamed players into performing better through verbal abuse. LeBron finds open players, locks down on defense, and has a much more well-rounded game. LBJ is Magic on steroids (not literally, I hope). But would MJ take him one on one? Almost certainly.

[Hingeknocker]

Well, MJ is the one player who has probably "earned" such a treatment. He was the OG "superstar" crossing all culture lines, omnipresent on all three networks, appointment television. He was larger than life.

I think LeBron is by far a better basketball player, but you can't even begin to explain to a Millennial what MJ was like in his prime.

Perhaps I'm biased based on my age, but as a basketball fanatic teen in the late 80s and early 90s, it's impossible to overstate the impact he had on my childhood, and every who I knew with similar interests.

But here's the thing: if you're a 90s baby who never saw MJ play, what's more valuable to you: a 10-part hagiography blessed by MJ himself, or actually going over his legitimately amazing career with a critical eye? I was 13 during the 1998 Finals, I had an MJ poster on my wall, I saw Space Jam in the theater, I do chores around the house with my tongue out to this day which annoys the hell out of my wife. I get the formative importance a guy like MJ has on people, myself included, but it still does an immense disservice to our understanding of history to accept something like this documentary as anything close to "definitive" when (through 2 episodes at least) it is nothing more than an elegantly produced puff piece.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

But here's the thing: if you're a 90s baby who never saw MJ play, what's more valuable to you: a 10-part hagiography blessed by MJ himself, or actually going over his legitimately amazing career with a critical eye? I was 13 during the 1998 Finals, I had an MJ poster on my wall, I saw Space Jam in the theater, I do chores around the house with my tongue out to this day which annoys the hell out of my wife. I get the formative importance a guy like MJ has on people, myself included, but it still does an immense disservice to our understanding of history to accept something like this documentary as anything close to "definitive" when (through 2 episodes at least) it is nothing more than an elegantly produced puff piece.

Oh, I hope they go into his gambling issues, his abuse of teammates, his dubious business dealings, his reluctance to take political stances, etc. I'll reserve judgment til we get there.

[Billy Dat]

But here's the thing: if you're a 90s baby who never saw MJ play, what's more valuable to you: a 10-part hagiography blessed by MJ himself, or actually going over his legitimately amazing career with a critical eye? I was 13 during the 1998 Finals, I had an MJ poster on my wall, I saw Space Jam in the theater, I do chores around the house with my tongue out to this day which annoys the hell out of my wife. I get the formative importance a guy like MJ has on people, myself included, but it still does an immense disservice to our understanding of history to accept something like this documentary as anything close to "definitive" when (through 2 episodes at least) it is nothing more than an elegantly produced puff piece.

I am curious what kind of dirt you are looking for looking for the series to cover? I looked at that article on the Pippen contract and, while I agree it contained some interesting facts about cap spikes and bad timing for Pippen, would the doc have been that much more interesting if it got into that minutiae? In the doc, I think they accurately show that Pippen grew up dirt poor and could not pass on an $18MM contract even though it was very long. You have the owner, Reinsdorf, saying that he told Scottie at the time that he was signing for too many years, and you also had Reinsdorf saying that he believed in never renegotiating a contract. I think that is the core issue at hand, Reinsdorf couldn't see the big picture and probably forgot, after 6 titles, that the reason for that was Jordan/Pippen, and not really him, or anyone else.

As far as hagiography, they show him, in episode 2, being a complete jerk to his teammates at practice. They talk about him having to physically fight his older brother if he beat him at basketball, and the marks that left on his psyche. They show him playing golf with Danny Ainge the day before an NBA playoff game, which shocked me. As someone who lived through his career, read the Sam Smith and Halberstam books, I feel like I am getting new info here, and not all of it is pretty.

Now, are we going to hear about his womanizing and gambling? I don't know. But, I think comparing it to "OJ: Made in America" is kind of unfair. That doc centered around the most high profile murder case in modern American history...I think there were a few more dark corners to explore in that one.

[howardlander]

Great post. However, I don't agree that LeBron is or was better, let alone "by far" compared to MJ. MJ's competitive will, speed, jumping, shooting, athleticism, defense, creativeness, and ability to take hits in a league when Jordan Rules were in effect and people actually made contact (and defense was allowed to play physical defense).

I'm not going say that LeBron is better than Michael either. They are/were both incredible in their time. But one disagreement I have with you is that I think the older rules would have suited LeBron on both offense and defense. His amazing physicality would have been an even more valuable asset in a more physical era. Who do you think is scoring on LeBron in a more physical league? Maybe Karl Malone, but no one else from that era comes to mind. And on offense LeBron already absorbs a tremendous amount of contact: he's like Shaq in that he is the guy that takes the most abuse without fouls being called. If everyone else was officiated the way LeBron is, I guess he would have led the league in scoring a number of times.

Howard

[J4Kop99]

Oh, I hope they go into his gambling issues, his abuse of teammates, his dubious business dealings, his reluctance to take political stances, etc. I'll reserve judgment til we get there.

Somebody dislikes MJ...


As for the subject matter: Richard Deitsch has a great interview with the Director (behind a paywall): https://theathletic.com/1741609/2020/04/13/the-last-dance-director-jason-hehir-captures-michael-jordan-from-all-angles/

Looks like they will discuss his gambling and his political stance (or lack thereof). They even discuss the rumors about his gambling being the reason for his dad's death:


“It’s one thing for someone from the NBA to give me that note or a researcher,” Hehir said. “It would honestly be a great note to get from anybody. But when you get it from someone who’s giving it to you first person, that’s a different level. Those are the kind of notes that he could give. If anything he wanted to discuss more in-depth things like ‘Republicans buy sneakers, too.’ and the response that. And all the allegations (about his gambling being part of his father’s death). If you watch a lot of those stories, he’s got a different shirt on because he wanted to discuss it over the course of a couple of interviews. He did not want to shy away from it.”

[JasonEvans]

LeBron finds open players, locks down on defense, and has a much more well-rounded game.

Just checking but you are aware that Jordan was on the NBA All-Defensive first team nine times (and you can bet he would have made 3 more if he had not taken that hiatus in the middle of his prime), right? James, who is an excellent defender, has made it 5 times and will not make it any more (despite having a much longer career than Jordan).

Michael Jordan was perhaps the most fearsome backcourt defensive player of all-time when he buckled down at crunch time. Just ask Bobby Hurley*.

-Jason "*-the story of the college all-stars beating the 1992 dream team... and the vengeance that Jordan laid down in the rematch... is legendary" Evans

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Just checking but you are aware that Jordan was on the NBA All-Defensive first team nine times (and you can bet he would have made 3 more if he had not taken that hiatus in the middle of his prime), right? James, who is an excellent defender, has made it 5 times and will not make it any more (despite having a much longer career than Jordan).

Michael Jordan was perhaps the most fearsome backcourt defensive player of all-time when he buckled down at crunch time. Just ask Bobby Hurley*.

-Jason "*-the story of the college all-stars beating the 1992 dream team... and the vengeance that Jordan laid down in the rematch... is legendary" Evans

Jordan also had Pippen and Rodman playing defense, Rob Harper and Oakley were no slouches.

Defense was clearly just different back then. I probably did myself a disservice by mentioning it at all.

[J4Kop99]

I'm not going say that LeBron is better than Michael either. They are/were both incredible in their time. But one disagreement I have with you is that I think the older rules would have suited LeBron on both offense and defense. His amazing physicality would have been an even more valuable asset in a more physical era. Who do you think is scoring on LeBron in a more physical league? Maybe Karl Malone, but no one else from that era comes to mind. And on offense LeBron already absorbs a tremendous amount of contact: he's like Shaq in that he is the guy that takes the most abuse without fouls being called. If everyone else was officiated the way LeBron is, I guess he would have led the league in scoring a number of times.

Howard

LeBron would dominate in any era. As would Michael. To say one is a significantly better player than the other is ridiculous. To look at Michael's intensity and will-to-win as a negative is definitely an odd take as well. He was hard on his teammates because he expected them to have the same mindset he did. That does not mean he was a bad teammate. He demanded a lot and like he says, he never asked anyone to do anything he hadn't done himself. You could argue that if LeBron was as intense and strong-willed, he would not have lost a whopping 6 NBA Finals.

Also, Michael Jordan did all this while properly playing within a system (the triangle).

Edit: @HowardLander, most of my response is not to be directed at you specifically! Didn't want there to be any confusion.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Somebody dislikes MJ...


Well, you're mistaken. Growing up, he was the end all be all. I was one of tens of millions who wanted to be like Mike.

I'm just wondering if they will whitewash the entirety of his career. As an adult, I'm much more aware of his foibles, which I would say are far more significant than LeBron's.

As I said earlier, I don't think anyone will match what MJ was culturally. In an age when most of us had a dozen stations, he was on all of them all the time.

[left_hook_lacey]

Jordan also had Pippen and Rodman playing defense, Rob Harper and Oakley were no slouches.

Defense was clearly just different back then. I probably did myself a disservice by mentioning it at all.

That Rob Harper was a beast. :D

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

That Rob Harper was a beast. :D

Dang autocorrect

[howardlander]

Edit: @HowardLander, most of my response is not to be directed at you specifically! Didn't want there to be any confusion.

Yeah, I got that, no worries.

[cato]

You know whose opinion I would love to hear on the MJ v LeBron debate? Mike Krzyzewski.

[SupaDave]

LeBron would dominate in any era. As would Michael. To say one is a significantly better player than the other is ridiculous. To look at Michael's intensity and will-to-win as a negative is definitely an odd take as well. He was hard on his teammates because he expected them to have the same mindset he did. That does not mean he was a bad teammate. He demanded a lot and like he says, he never asked anyone to do anything he hadn't done himself. You could argue that if LeBron was as intense and strong-willed, he would not have lost a whopping 6 NBA Finals.

Also, Michael Jordan did all this while properly playing within a system (the triangle).

Edit: @HowardLander, most of my response is not to be directed at you specifically! Didn't want there to be any confusion.

That would be a bad argument. JR Rider cost him. Kyrie and Love being hurt cost him. Dirk cost him (that Heat team was still figuring things out). Kawhi cost him (the Spurs were a better team top to bottom). Playing 6 All-stars cost him. Jordan never had such issues.

[Kdogg]

I think LeBron is by far a better basketball player, but you can't even begin to explain to a Millennial what MJ was like in his prime.


I hate Michael Jordan. I have my whole sports watching life. I have no problems saying that he is the greatest basketball player I have ever seen. I think Lebron is more well rounded but not a better player. Jordan in today’s NBA would average 35-40 a night.

[SouthernDukie]

Well, you're mistaken. Growing up, he was the end all be all. I was one of tens of millions who wanted to be like Mike.



Heck, you just lost me. I do hate Jordan. Have to. He played at freakin' UNC and then dominated the NBA, further encouraging UNC love from the masses. Nuff said.

Well, not quite enough said. I will begrudgingly admit he was/is the GOAT in basketball. It's surely between him and LeBron (and perhaps Kobe). And this is coming from a Larry Bird loving Celtic fan growing up. But I can still hate MJ in the sports fan kinda way.

[SouthernDukie]

That would be a bad argument. JR Rider cost him. Kyrie and Love being hurt cost him. Dirk cost him (that Heat team was still figuring things out). Kawhi cost him (the Spurs were a better team top to bottom). Playing 6 All-stars cost him. Jordan never had such issues.

Truth! Every bit of it. If anyone argues that Michael Jordan didn't have an easier time of claiming titles vs LeBron, they are two fries short of a happy meal. That doesn't take away from his accomplishments, but I don't want to hear Michael had it harder than LeBron. No way.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Heck, you just lost me. I do hate Jordan. Have to. He played at freakin' UNC and then dominated the NBA, further encouraging UNC love from the masses. Nuff said.

Well, not quite enough said. I will begrudgingly admit he was/is the GOAT in basketball. It's surely between him and LeBron (and perhaps Kobe). And this is coming from a Larry Bird loving Celtic fan growing up. But I can still hate MJ in the sports fan kinda way.

Maybe it was an age thing.

[JasonEvans]

I will begrudgingly admit he was/is the GOAT in basketball. It's surely between him and LeBron (and perhaps Kobe).

Wait... what did you just say there?!?!?

Talk about killing your credibility! I'm not even sure Kobe is among the 10 best players of all time, let alone in the GOAT conversation. Off the top of my head: MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Bird, and Magic are unquestionably better than Kobe. Kobe was rarely even the best player in the NBA during his career. He won the MVP award exactly one time.


That would be a bad argument. JR Rider cost him. Kyrie and Love being hurt cost him. Dirk cost him (that Heat team was still figuring things out). Kawhi cost him (the Spurs were a better team top to bottom). Playing 6 All-stars cost him. Jordan never had such issues.

"JR Rider cost him" - First of all, the Cavs aren't wining that series even if JR Smith (not JR Rider) had taken a shot (who knows if he makes it) versus sending game one of the series into OT. They lost to the Warriors 4-0. And even if you want to contend that Smith's boneheaded play broke the Cavs spirit, there is no no no no way Jordan would have let his team fold after a mistake like that.

"Kyrie and Love being hurt cost him" - You are aware that Jordan won a title when he was so sick he could barely get out of bed, right? It is not like the Bull had perfect health ever single post-season.

"Dirk cost him" - So, your contention is that the GOAT lost a series to a team that was clearly less talented because someone on the other team was better than the GOAT? Ummmm, the grand total of times someone was better than Jordan in the playoffs is zero (ok, maybe one... he was merely great, not the greatest, in 1995 when he came back from early retirement).

"Kawhi cost him" - See my above retort. How can Lebron be the GOAT when he keeps losing to guys who are better than him? This argument makes no sense to me.

"Playing 6 All-stars cost him" - I'll give you this one. That Warriors team was stacked in a major way and the Cavs simply did not have the weapons to fight back. But, you know one of the amazing thing about the Bulls? Jordan somehow made those mediocre players pretty darn good all by himself. It is not like the Bulls were loaded with All-stars. Other than Pippen, they were a bunch of role players who Jordan molded into the pieces that would prove unbeatable in the playoffs. Lebron's is often on teams that just don't work all that well together. I dunno how much of it is his fault, but this never happened to Jordan. There has to be some responsibility to the star here, doesn't there?

The GOAT does not lose 6 NBA finals... he just doesn't. Make all the excuses you want but the reality is that Jordan would not let his teams lose. That is what makes him the GOAT. Lebron... not so much.

[SouthernDukie]

Wait... what did you just say there?!?!?

Talk about killing your credibility! I'm not even sure Kobe is among the 10 best players of all time, let alone in the GOAT conversation. Off the top of my head: MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Bird, and Magic are unquestionably better than Kobe. Kobe was rarely even the best player in the NBA during his career. He won the MVP award exactly one time.


“Okay. A simple wrong would have done just fine, but...“

[luvdahops]

Wait... what did you just say there?!?!?

Talk about killing your credibility! I'm not even sure Kobe is among the 10 best players of all time, let alone in the GOAT conversation. Off the top of my head: MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Bird, and Magic are unquestionably better than Kobe. Kobe was rarely even the best player in the NBA during his career. He won the MVP award exactly one time.



"JR Rider cost him" - First of all, the Cavs aren't wining that series even if JR Smith (not JR Rider) had taken a shot (who knows if he makes it) versus sending game one of the series into OT. They lost to the Warriors 4-0. And even if you want to contend that Smith's boneheaded play broke the Cavs spirit, there is no no no no way Jordan would have let his team fold after a mistake like that.

"Kyrie and Love being hurt cost him" - You are aware that Jordan won a title when he was so sick he could barely get out of bed, right? It is not like the Bull had perfect health ever single post-season.

"Dirk cost him" - So, your contention is that the GOAT lost a series to a team that was clearly less talented because someone on the other team was better than the GOAT? Ummmm, the grand total of times someone was better than Jordan in the playoffs is zero (ok, maybe one... he was merely great, not the greatest, in 1995 when he came back from early retirement).

"Kawhi cost him" - See my above retort. How can Lebron be the GOAT when he keeps losing to guys who are better than him? This argument makes no sense to me.

"Playing 6 All-stars cost him" - I'll give you this one. That Warriors team was stacked in a major way and the Cavs simply did not have the weapons to fight back. But, you know one of the amazing thing about the Bulls? Jordan somehow made those mediocre players pretty darn good all by himself. It is not like the Bulls were loaded with All-stars. Other than Pippen, they were a bunch of role players who Jordan molded into the pieces that would prove unbeatable in the playoffs. Lebron's is often on teams that just don't work all that well together. I dunno how much of it is his fault, but this never happened to Jordan. There has to be some responsibility to the star here, doesn't there?

The GOAT does not lose 6 NBA finals... he just doesn't. Make all the excuses you want but the reality is that Jordan would not let his teams lose. That is what makes him the GOAT. Lebron... not so much.

IMHO, the realistic discussion only includes MJ, Lebron, Wilt and Kareem. Dominant at both ends of the floor, clearly the best in the game for most of their careers, lots of postseason success (my criteria, admittedly). And I rank them in that order. MJ above Lebron primarily because he ALWAYS wanted the ball with the game on the line, and edges him on most advanced metrics.

Bird and Magic were both mediocre defenders overall, and Russell was never a dominant offensive player (did not lead the Celtics in scoring even once, and generally ranked 3rd or 4th on the team). Russell also consistently had the most talented teammates through the course of his career.

[J4Kop99]

Wait... what did you just say there?!?!?

Talk about killing your credibility! I'm not even sure Kobe is among the 10 best players of all time, let alone in the GOAT conversation. Off the top of my head: MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Bird, and Magic are unquestionably better than Kobe. Kobe was rarely even the best player in the NBA during his career. He won the MVP award exactly one time.



"JR Rider cost him" - First of all, the Cavs aren't wining that series even if JR Smith (not JR Rider) had taken a shot (who knows if he makes it) versus sending game one of the series into OT. They lost to the Warriors 4-0. And even if you want to contend that Smith's boneheaded play broke the Cavs spirit, there is no no no no way Jordan would have let his team fold after a mistake like that.

"Kyrie and Love being hurt cost him" - You are aware that Jordan won a title when he was so sick he could barely get out of bed, right? It is not like the Bull had perfect health ever single post-season.

"Dirk cost him" - So, your contention is that the GOAT lost a series to a team that was clearly less talented because someone on the other team was better than the GOAT? Ummmm, the grand total of times someone was better than Jordan in the playoffs is zero (ok, maybe one... he was merely great, not the greatest, in 1995 when he came back from early retirement).

"Kawhi cost him" - See my above retort. How can Lebron be the GOAT when he keeps losing to guys who are better than him? This argument makes no sense to me.

"Playing 6 All-stars cost him" - I'll give you this one. That Warriors team was stacked in a major way and the Cavs simply did not have the weapons to fight back. But, you know one of the amazing thing about the Bulls? Jordan somehow made those mediocre players pretty darn good all by himself. It is not like the Bulls were loaded with All-stars. Other than Pippen, they were a bunch of role players who Jordan molded into the pieces that would prove unbeatable in the playoffs. Lebron's is often on teams that just don't work all that well together. I dunno how much of it is his fault, but this never happened to Jordan. There has to be some responsibility to the star here, doesn't there?

The GOAT does not lose 6 NBA finals... he just doesn't. Make all the excuses you want but the reality is that Jordan would not let his teams lose. That is what makes him the GOAT. Lebron... not so much.

Thank you for writing this so I did not have to.

You cannot defend LeBron against Jordan by saying that LeBron got outplayed by other individual players.

Spurs in 07 and GSW w/o Kyrie and Love are fair write-offs. The rest of them... not so much.

Dirk? Really? That would be like MJ losing to MVP Barkley in 93. Was. not. going. to. happen.
Kawhi and the Spurs? That would be like the Bulls splitting with Utah in 97/98. See above.

LeBron is extraordinary and by far the best player of his generation. Much better than Kobe-- and I'm an LA born, lover of all things Lakers. He is amazing to watch and I greatly admire how he has carried himself off of the court (aside from The Decision). Michael just has him beat. Michael refused to lose.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

IMHO, the realistic discussion only includes MJ, Lebron, Wilt and Kareem. Dominant at both ends of the floor, clearly the best in the game for most of their careers, lots of postseason success (my criteria, admittedly). And I rank them in that order. MJ above Lebron primarily because he ALWAYS wanted the ball with the game on the line, and edges him on most advanced metrics.

Bird and Magic were both mediocre defenders overall, and Russell was never a dominant offensive player (did not lead the Celtics in scoring even once, and generally ranked 3rd or 4th on the team). Russell also consistently had the most talented teammates through the course of his career.

My list (no particular order):
Kareem
MJ
LeBron

.
.
.
.
.
.

Anyone else

[kako]

Wading into the LeBron v MJ debate. I personally think LeBron is the better basketball player as he has the better all-around game. That's not to say MJ wasn't better than James in various areas... in particular, the killer instinct. But LeBron is the better team player in that he makes his teammates better. Some of those Cavs teams he took to the Finals might not have even made the playoffs without him. Quick - name a single person on the 2006 Cavs that made the finals other than LeBron!... If you said Larry Hughes, you must be Larry's mom.

MJ was the better dunker. LeBron is/was stronger.

Jordan was the better scorer and defender. LeBron is/was the better passer and rebounder.

Jordan won 6 titles. LeBron went to 8 straight finals, has been to 9 and isn't done yet.

Jordan got to all of his Finals with Pippin and Jackson. LeBron got to his Finals with a smorgasbord of players and coaches.

One can go back and forth on this. Ultimately it can may down to the Williams/DiMaggio agreement. DiMaggio called Williams the greatest hitter in baseball, while Williams called DiMaggio the greatest ballplayer he'd ever seen.

That all being said, LeBron is much more of a whiner than Jordan ever was. And "The Decision" was terrible. I really don't like LeBron. But I do think he's the better basketball player. With all due respect to Kareem, Magic, Chamberlain, Russell and Bird, Jordan and LeBron are 1-2 (or 2-1) on my NBA greatest list.

9F

[MartyClark]

Here's my bias. I loved the Chicago Bulls. I grew up in Chicago and went to scores of games at the old Chicago Stadium in the late 1960's, the 1970's and 1981. Parenthetically, a great, ratty, rundown old place to watch a ball game.

I moved to Denver in 1982 so was not there during the Jordan glory years. I followed them closely and saw them in person a few times at various venues.

Jordan is the greatest player of all time. He is the greatest winner of all time. Pippen was good but did little without Jordan. Many of the other Bulls were ordinary, average players.

Feel free to disagree and no disrespect to others in the conversation. Jordan was a ruthless, ornery, hard working, relentless player who willed his teammates, maybe tortured them, to heights they never would have reached without Jordan.

[JasonEvans]

“Okay. A simple wrong would have done just fine, but...“

Sorry, I may have been a bit aggressive. But, you put Kobe into the GOAT conversation and I just could not keep myself from shouting that down.

[dukelifer]

The GOAT does not lose 6 NBA finals... he just doesn't. Make all the excuses you want but the reality is that Jordan would not let his teams lose. That is what makes him the GOAT. Lebron... not so much.

Does the GOAT temporarily retire from the Sport when he loses his coach and his right hand man? MJ was great- no question, but he did benefit from the continuity of an organization- and coach who showed he could win big even without MJ. I would put MJ above Lebron in shooting and ability to will a win- but Lebron has personified excellence on both ends of the court on multiple teams- not sure anyone is close to him on that

[howardlander]

Jordan is the greatest player of all time. He is the greatest winner of all time.

Greatest player? Maybe, certainly a reasonable argument. But greatest winner? Bill Russell won 2 NCAA titles at The University of San Franciso, an Olympic Gold medal and 11 NBA titles in 13 years.

Howard

[Bluedog]

That all being said, LeBron is much more of a whiner than Jordan ever was. And "The Decision" was terrible. I really don't like LeBron.

Different eras. I expect there would be a lot more MJ detractors (from a likability/personality perspective, not from a on the court performance evaluation) if he was in the current era with so much media coverage and the internet with more direct access. (Notwithstanding his gambling issues and his adultery). MJ and the team were able to basically frame his persona in the way they wanted largely. And as for on the court whining, reffing seems a lot different these days as MJ never got called for anything while for some reason LeBron does. Having said all that, MJ is likely the GOAT IMO. You seemingly have to be arrogant in some capacity to have that killer instinct that he had.

[CDu]

Worth noting that Jordan was vested plenty of times in the playoffs - just always before the Finals. He just happened to hit an era where when his teams made the Finals his opponents weren’t great. Jordan’s teams were favored in at least 5 of his 6 finals. LeBron’s teams in just 3 or 4 of 9.

LeBron was better at getting inferior teams to the Finals, whereas Jordan could not do that. Conversely, Jordan was better at winning when favored.

This isn’t to say one or the other is clearly better. They are both great and in the top 3 or 4 ever. Kareem and Wilt deserve your be in that discussion too, and Kareem has a strong case for #1.

[bundabergdevil]

LBJ isn't done , MJ is. LBJ has baked his cake but we have no idea if it's fully iced yet. Tough to compare them when LBJ will almost certainly add more individual accolades and very possibly championships to his resume.

I guess there's a certain segment of the MJ v. LBJ debaters for whom the answer could NEVER possibly be LBJ but the rest of us should at least give the man a chance to take off his apron first!

[Steven43]

Worth noting that Jordan was vested plenty of times in the playoffs - just always before the Finals. He just happened to hit an era where when his teams made the Finals his opponents weren’t great. Jordan’s teams were favored in at least 5 of his 6 finals. LeBron’s teams in just 3 or 4 of 9.

LeBron was better at getting inferior teams to the Finals, whereas Jordan could not do that. Conversely, Jordan was better at winning when favored.

This isn’t to say one or the other is clearly better. They are both great and in the top 3 or 4 ever. Kareem and Wilt deserve your be in that discussion too, and Kareem has a strong case for #1.
Personally, I just can’t put old-school centers in the conversation of all-time greats such as Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, and LeBron James.

As primary ballhandlers these guys had to be adept at passing from long distances while on the move, shooting from anywhere on the court whether near the basket or not, and, of course, handling the ball all over the court. The centers didn’t really need those skills as they were mostly camped out near the basket.

[ice-9]

I don't understand the narrative that LeBron makes teammates better as a reason to one-up him over Jordan.

LeBron didn't win any titles without superstar teammates. He didn't during his first stint at Cleveland, and he needed Wade and Bosh with the Heat, and Kyrie and Love with the Cavs. Were Wade, Bosh, Kyrie and Love "better" players next to LeBron? Was Ingram a better player next to LeBron? Hard to say; certainly not clear enough for this "LeBron makes teammates better than Jordan did" narrative to work unquestioned in my opinion.

I agree with the assessment that Jordan's Bulls had one superstar in Pippen and a bunch of very good role players. Is it not possible those role players were very good because of Jordan?

I also hate this 9 finals argument as a reason for LeBron's greatness. Would he have gone to 9 finals if he was on a Western team? Did his Lakers even make the playoffs last year? Making the finals is a flawed milestone given how weak the East was for many of those years. Sorry, how many finals you get to is not an important variable in the GOAT discussion. How many finals you lost, however, is notable.

All that said, I'm a huge LeBron fan. I bought his shoes, drafted him in fantasy multiple times, and am amazed by what he was doing this season. He is clearly in the conversation for GOAT. However, he is not yet there. There's still time though.

[JTH]

One of my favorite posts of all time by the late, and very missed, Olympic Fan (Al Featherstone.) He did an excellent job of describing just how Russell lifted the Celtics when he arrived and how they declined as soon as he left. 11 NBA Championships in 13 years. Back to Back NCAA Championships. Olympic Gold. My GOAT vote stays with Russell. My biggest question is....who is No.2? Jordan? Kareem? Wilt? Etc.?


Which record is that?

We've had this discussion several times. Michael Jordan is the product of the ESPN hype machine. Russell, who played long before there was a Sportscenter, was a far more dominant player than Michael Jordan.

And, yes, Russell changed the game as much or more than Michael Jordan ever did (the modern goaltending rules are a product of his shotblocking prowess).

Let's put it in simple terms: His teams won. They won far more often that Jordan's teams (or Wilt's teams or Oscar's teams).

Yeah, he had good teammates -- but so did the other guys. Look it up, Philadelphia was actually more successful before Wilt joined the team than the Celtics were before Russell joined the team. The Warriors won the 1956 NBA title without Wilt. The Celtics had never before reached the NBA finals (much less won a title) before Russell joined the team at midseason in 1956-57 (he joined at midseason so he could represent the US in the '56 Olympic games). After that, they never stopped winning until Russell retired. The '56 champion Warriors didn't win again, even after adding Wilt, until Russell retired.

It's worth noting that his San Francisco teams won back to back national titles in his last two years there -- that's more NCAA titles than Jordan, Wilt, Oscar, Jerry West or Larry Bird won COMBINED. Yeah, KC Jones was a teammate for the first title, but Jones was ineligible for the '56 playoffs.

Just for fun, someday look up Jordan's teammates in 1983 and 1984 and compare them with Russell's teammates in 55 and 56. You might be surprised what you find.

Let's see ... Russell was the best player on teams that won two straight NCAA titles, the Olympic Gold and Celtics teams that won the NBA title in 11 of his 13 seasons. The Celtics, which had never won anything before Russell, won the NBA title in his first two seasons (then he got hurt and the Celtics lost in the finals), then they won seven more titles in a row. They also won in his final year when Wilt faked an injury and hid on the bench. And the year after Russell retired, the Celtics -- with all those great players who are supposed to be the reason he won so many titles -- finished below .500 and failed to make the playoffs.

Russell is the greatest winner in the history of team sports -- his teams won the ultimate championship in 13 of his last 15 seasons (14 of 16 if you count the Olympics).

Jordan was a great player and a great winner too. We all remember that he hit the game-winner to help Dean Smith win his first championshp in 1982. But do you remember that James Worthy was the star of that team (and the Final Four MVP) and it also had three-time All-American Sam Perkins.

In the two college seasons after Worthy left, Jordan constantly choked in postseason -- to NC State and Duke in the ACC Tournament semifinals; to Georgia in the Elite Eight and to Indiana in the Sweet 16.

Eventually, Jordan became a winner in the NBA, after a long apprenticeship. After the Bulls added Scottie Pippen. In contrast, Russell won right away and kept winning. Yeah, he won with Cousy (who had never won anything before Russell arrived) ... and he kept winning when Cousy retired. He won before Havlicek arrived and after he arrived.

Your comment that Oscar and Wilt were better than Russell suggest that you are mesmerized by individual stats -- the way Oscar and Wilt were. They put up great numbers. But they weren't winners. Oscar never got Cincinnati to the national title game, but they got there three straight times in the three years after he left (winning two titles). Can you really argue that a guy's the greatest player ever when his team gets better after he leaves?

Oscar won one NBA title, when late in his career, he finally hooked up with Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

Wilt choked against UNC in the 1957 title game and he was constantly beaten by Russell. Yeah, he had great numbers against the Celtics, but at crunch time, Russell ALWAYS shut him down. (Russell explained in his autobiography that during the game, he'd let Wilt get the ball where he wanted and take the shots he wanted -- until the game was on the line and Russell would beat him to the spot and deny him the shots he wanted. It always worked and Wilt -- being the mental midget he was -- never figured it out).

My point is that the object of the game is to win, not to score a lot of individual points or pile up a lot of stats. Who is to say that the things Russell did -- his ability to dominate games at the defensive end and on the boards -- were not more important than Jordan's ability to score points? The record that you talk about would seem to indicate that Russell's contributions led to more victories than Jordan's contributions.

Am I right that Russell is the greatest player in basketball history? I think so, but I'm not so arrogant as you are -- and so many other children of the ESPN era are -- to think that my opinion is fact and there's no room for debate.

Just understand that this IS a matter of opinion and there are plenty of varying opinions out there -- and it's not so crazy to suggest that Bill Russell and not Michael Jordan is not the greatest player of all time.

[jv001]

One of my favorite posts of all time by the late, and very missed, Olympic Fan (Al Featherstone.) He did an excellent job of describing just how Russell lifted the Celtics when he arrived and how they declined as soon as he left. 11 NBA Championships in 13 years. Back to Back NCAA Championships. Olympic Gold. My GOAT vote stays with Russell. My biggest question is...who is No.2? Jordan? Kareem? Wilt? Etc.?

I saw Russell play and besides, I'll take OLY's word for it.

GoDuke!

[Natty_B]

I don't get the notion that MJ's teams rolled in the Finals. The Suns and Jazz in '98 were leading a game 6 late. The Sonics were hanging around in their game 6 for a long time. I also don't buy that Pippen was "nothing" without MJ - the 93/94 Bulls were 55-27. MJ also did lose a playoff series during this run but it has been wiped away because he had just come back - fair enough - but he did lose.

Also adding Phil Jackson teams were aesthetically brutal to watch.

[mr. synellinden]

It's game 7 of the NBA Finals and you can draft any player in history in his absolute prime to be on your team. Who are you taking?

[CDu]

Personally, I just can’t put old-school centers in the conversation of all-time greats such as Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, and LeBron James.

As primary ballhandlers these guys had to be adept at passing from long distances while on the move, shooting from anywhere on the court whether near the basket or not, and, of course, handling the ball all over the court. The centers didn’t really need those skills as they were mostly camped out near the basket.

All of this has to be cosidered relative to the era that they played in. Otherwise the answer is always "today's players are better".

Jordan played in an era where most small forwards didn't have great ballhandling skills, and 200lbs was a good size for a wing (weight training didn't really start to take off until the latter part of his career). If you dropped him into today's era, it's questionable whether he'd have the same impact. Because guys like LeBron and Durant were playing different roles back in the 80s and 90s than they are today.

By the same token, Chamberlain and Abdul-Jabbar played in a different era, where bigs were asked to play differently than today. You can't just assume that they would be the same type of player if they were developing in today's world.

[MartyClark]

Greatest player? Maybe, certainly a reasonable argument. But greatest winner? Bill Russell won 2 NCAA titles at The University of San Franciso, an Olympic Gold medal and 11 NBA titles in 13 years.

Howard

Yup, you are right.

I was trying to talk about Michael's drive to win and, that in my opinion, that drive exceeded any other player. I didn't say it very well and, if I did, it would be debatable.

Bill Russell, by record, is the winningest b-ball player and I did not intend to ignore the obvious.

[SouthernDukie]

It's game 7 of the NBA Finals and you can draft any player in history in his absolute prime to be on your team. Who are you taking?

Larry Joe Bird. But since he didn’t get to play at his prime for very long, without some injuries here and there, I can’t say he’s the GOAT. One game - Game 7 - in his prime and injury free? Yep, I’m taking Bird.

And I dare Jason to tell me I’m crazy this time. :cool:

[wobatus]

Yup, you are right.

I was trying to talk about Michael's drive to win and, that in my opinion, that drive exceeded any other player. I didn't say it very well and, if I did, it would be debatable.

Bill Russell, by record, is the winningest b-ball player and I did not intend to ignore the obvious.

Fivethirtyeight has a new-fangled stat. I think it only goes back to '78. Also has Jordan as 4th best perimeter defender of that era (interestingly, Danny Green is number 2, which I never suspected).

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-michael-jordan-was-the-best/

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

It's game 7 of the NBA Finals and you can draft any player in history in his absolute prime to be on your team. Who are you taking?

Bill Russell.

[Truth&Justise]

It's game 7 of the NBA Finals and you can draft any player in history in his absolute prime to be on your team. Who are you taking?


Larry Joe Bird. But since he didn’t get to play at his prime for very long, without some injuries here and there, I can’t say he’s the GOAT. One game - Game 7 - in his prime and injury free? Yep, I’m taking Bird.

And I dare Jason to tell me I’m crazy this time. :cool:


Bill Russell.

I'm taking Jordan, because if I take anyone else and Jordan finds out? I'm dead. He will move heaven and earth not just to win the game, but to embarass my team then rub it in our faces.

[bundabergdevil]

It's game 7 of the NBA Finals and you can draft any player in history in his absolute prime to be on your team. Who are you taking?

Mr. Robert Horry

:)

[kako]

It's game 7 of the NBA Finals and you can draft any player in history in his absolute prime to be on your team. Who are you taking?

Giving it some thought, I'd say Magic.

The point here is that I am picking a team, and not a player. Sure, picking MJ or LeBron or Kareem or Russell might be banking on the player. But I'd want Magic as my PG in Game 7. And since it's a draft, I might even go with Magic if I had the first pick. Let's say the next guy picks Jordan. Then I'd pick LeBron or Kareem or Russell... or even Durant. I think I will have the top 2 players team-wise. There's not another true PG in the NBA top 10 (though Curry fans might argue). For those that would pick MJ and argue you could put him with BJ Armstrong and still win, I disagree. Who's BJ going to guard on the other all-time team?

I say again that I think LeBron is the best all-around NBA player that I've ever seen. That actually doesn't mean he's the GOAT. Or that he's my first pick in an all-time draft. Maybe MJ is the GOAT. But LeBron is the best all-around (not having seen the Big O).

9F

[DUKIECB]

It's game 7 of the NBA Finals and you can draft any player in history in his absolute prime to be on your team. Who are you taking?Jordan. For me it's not even close.

[SouthernDukie]

I'm taking Jordan, because if I take anyone else and Jordan finds out? I'm dead. He will move heaven and earth not just to win the game, but to embarass my team then rub it in our faces.

See, I think Bird had that same exact mentality. And when healthy could impact those big games in the same way Jordan did.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

It's game 7 of the NBA Finals and you can draft any player in history in his absolute prime to be on your team. Who are you taking?

Yeah, sorry folks, the correct answer is Jordan.

Russell won a lot, but wasn't the reason for each trophy. Robert Horry won tons of hardware - is he one of the best twenty players ever?

I am steadfast that LeBron is a better player in most aspects of the game. But I would select MJ for game seven every time.

[Troublemaker]

Personally, I just can’t put old-school centers in the conversation of all-time greats such as Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, and LeBron James.

As primary ballhandlers these guys had to be adept at passing from long distances while on the move, shooting from anywhere on the court whether near the basket or not, and, of course, handling the ball all over the court. The centers didn’t really need those skills as they were mostly camped out near the basket.

Perimeter players are typically more complete (i.e. wider skillset), sure, but that doesn't make them better players, especially adjusted for era as CDu noted. For many decades, if you had the best big man, you were probably going to win multiple championships.

Also, big men like Kareem, Hakeem, and Duncan were still exquisitely skilled at their craft, despite not also being the long-distance shooters or great ball-handlers that a guard could be.

[Troublemaker]

Yeah, sorry folks, the correct answer is Jordan.

Russell won a lot, but wasn't the reason for each trophy. Robert Horry won tons of hardware - is he one of the best twenty players ever?

I am steadfast that LeBron is a better player in most aspects of the game. But I would select MJ for game seven every time.

I'm not aware of any contemporary accounts (e.g. teammates, coaches, reporters) that didn't consider Russell to be the best player on each of his championship teams.

The answer to the Game 7 question is fairly easy. Russell. He played in ten Game 7s and was 10-0. (MJ is a fine answer but he just didn't have the extensive track record of Game 7s).

Here's a writeup of his Russell's ten Game 7s (https://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs2006/columns/story?columnist=shouler_ken&id=2453844).

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'm not aware of any contemporary accounts (e.g. teammates, coaches, reporters) that didn't consider Russell to be the best player on each of his championship teams.

The answer to the Game 7 question is fairly easy. Russell. He played in ten Game 7s and was 10-0. (MJ is a fine answer but he just didn't have the extensive track record of Game 7s).

Here's a writeup of his Russell's ten Game 7s (https://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs2006/columns/story?columnist=shouler_ken&id=2453844).

That's one of the best counterpoints I can imagine. Well done.

[Steven43]

Larry Joe Bird. But since he didn’t get to play at his prime for very long, without some injuries here and there, I can’t say he’s the GOAT. One game - Game 7 - in his prime and injury free? Yep, I’m taking Bird.
Seconded.

[mr. synellinden]

Larry Joe Bird. But since he didn’t get to play at his prime for very long, without some injuries here and there, I can’t say he’s the GOAT. One game - Game 7 - in his prime and injury free? Yep, I’m taking Bird.

And I dare Jason to tell me I’m crazy this time. :cool:

This would be my answer too. 1984-1986 Larry Bird.

[SouthernDukie]

Seconded.


This would be my answer too. 1984-1986 Larry Bird.

Sanity restored to DBR. Just kidding. Don't let your cornbread get cold on account of it. :D

In all seriousness, I also admire the counterpoint that Troublemaker supplied concerning Russell. Hard to argue with that.

[SouthernDukie]

Gotta say one more thing. I really do believe as time goes by more and more folk forget just how good Larry Bird was.

James Worthy: "I would rather guard Jordan than Bird."

Pat Riley: "I'd want Jordan to take the shot with the game on the line. I'd want Bird to take it if my LIFE was on the line."

Isiah Thomas: "if you locked me, Michael, Magic and Larry in a room----I think Larry is the one who makes it out".

Michael Cooper: "He was the toughest in the sense that anytime Larry was on the floor, you had to be aware of his presence because he was going to make something good happen. I played against George Gervin, Andrew Toney, Dr. J., a young Michael Jordan, some of the best players that have ever played this game, but Larry would have to be the best. You knew if Jordan had the ball, once he gave it up, you were okay with that. Larry could go get offensive rebounds. He could make a great pass. He was the ultimate offensive threat. Anytime he was on the offensive side of the floor you had to defend him. To me, that makes him the best I've ever played against."

[JasonEvans]

Jordan. For me it's not even close.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/e9a14bf55e258ce06b61b0ba6c147a49/tenor.gif?itemid=5694982

[luvdahops]

Gotta say one more thing. I really do believe as time goes by more and more folk forget just how good Larry Bird was.

James Worthy: "I would rather guard Jordan than Bird."

Pat Riley: "I'd want Jordan to take the shot with the game on the line. I'd want Bird to take it if my LIFE was on the line."

Isiah Thomas: "if you locked me, Michael, Magic and Larry in a room----I think Larry is the one who makes it out".

Michael Cooper: "He was the toughest in the sense that anytime Larry was on the floor, you had to be aware of his presence because he was going to make something good happen. I played against George Gervin, Andrew Toney, Dr. J., a young Michael Jordan, some of the best players that have ever played this game, but Larry would have to be the best. You knew if Jordan had the ball, once he gave it up, you were okay with that. Larry could go get offensive rebounds. He could make a great pass. He was the ultimate offensive threat. Anytime he was on the offensive side of the floor you had to defend him. To me, that makes him the best I've ever played against."

Bird was undoubtedly a great offensive player. But do have any memory of him trying to defend Worthy in those great Lakers-Celtics matchups? It wasn't pretty.

[luvdahops]

I'm not aware of any contemporary accounts (e.g. teammates, coaches, reporters) that didn't consider Russell to be the best player on each of his championship teams.

The answer to the Game 7 question is fairly easy. Russell. He played in ten Game 7s and was 10-0. (MJ is a fine answer but he just didn't have the extensive track record of Game 7s).

Here's a writeup of his Russell's ten Game 7s (https://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs2006/columns/story?columnist=shouler_ken&id=2453844).

Russell was undoubtedly a great player, great leader and great winner.

FWIW, I would argue (in hindsight admittedly) that Havlicek was the best player on the '68 and '69 championship teams, years in which Russell averaged 12.5 and 9.9 ppg, respectively.

I also think the "Russell as ultimate winner = Russell as greatest player" logic glosses over - if not outright ignores - some inconvenient facts, namely:

Number of championships won without at least 3 future HoF teammates - ZERO

Number of years Russell led the Celtics in scoring in the regular season or playoffs - ZERO

Number of times Russell was named 1st Team All-NBA - 3 (OUT OF 13 SEASONS)

Number of times Russell had the ball in his hands with a Finals game on the line - NO IDEA, BUT SAFE TO SAY IT WAS FAR FEWER THAN MJ, LEBRON OR KAREEM

[dukelifer]

Seconded.

I really enjoyed watching Bird play- he was such a good shooter and smart player. He could find a million ways to beat you. Just did not play long enough.

[cato]

Number of times Russell had the ball in his hands with a Finals game on the line - NO IDEA, BUT SAFE TO SAY IT WAS FAR FEWER THAN MJ, LEBRON OR KAREEM

By “ball in his hand” are you including rebounds and blocks? Just curious.

I would also like to know how many times Russell was guarding the guy with the ball in his hand (or who wanted the ball in his hand) with a Finals game on the line.

One of the things that makes this argument endless is that best players have had some of the best teammates, and playing the game at the highest level on both sides of the ball has a heck of an impact on winning.

[SouthernDukie]

I really enjoyed watching Bird play- he was such a good shooter and smart player. He could find a million ways to beat you. Just did not play long enough.

Agreed. And it seemed like about half the time he did play he had some nagging injury.

Greatest “What if” in Boston Celtic history: what if Len Bias hadn’t died? How many more championships would Bird & Co have won? I have to believe they’d have won the rubber match in their 80’s bouts with the Lakers [ducks head as LA fans blow up].

[Steven43]

Agreed. And it seemed like about half the time he did play he had some nagging injury.

Greatest “What if” in Boston Celtic history: what if Len Bias hadn’t died? How many more championships would Bird & Co have won? I have to believe they’d have won the rubber match in their 80’s bouts with the Lakers [ducks head as LA fans blow up].

I will always believe that if Bias had not died Bird would have won at least two more championships, and quite possibly three, which would have given him a total of six. Not only would Bias have been a major contributor to the team -- similar to Worthy for the Lakers -- he would have taken a lot of the stress off of Bird, which would have allowed him to stay healthier and play several more seasons.

Had those things occurred, which they very well could have, Bird would likely be regarded as the greatest player of all time. Even without those things occurring many consider peak Bird to be the highest level any basketball player has attained.

[accfanfrom1970]

I guess I’m alone in having no interest or watching none of it. Bird, Russell, Magic, Curry, Pistol Pete, the Big O. All the Duke guys like Hill, Hurley and Laettner. Never was interested in Jordan, rooted for Charles in the finals.

[Steven43]

Bird was undoubtedly a great offensive player. But do have any memory of him trying to defend Worthy in those great Lakers-Celtics matchups? It wasn't pretty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKx8hWaG_2o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbVJAp7Mg1U

[luvdahops]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKx8hWaG_2o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbVJAp7Mg1U

Not sure how these are responsive to my question about him defending Worthy

Bird was a great player for sure, and I absolutely get the arguments about the impact of injuries and the death of Bias on what he might have otherwise accomplished

But keep in mind that he played most of his career alongside 3 other future Hall of Famers in Parrish, McHale and DJ (I'm not counting the fumes of Bill Walton in '86 and '87)

And Bird was NEVER a dominant defensive player; he was solid to pretty good off the ball, and an outstanding defensive rebounder, but generally awful 1 on 1. And because of that, I don't include him in my short list for GOAT.

[Wahoo2000]

I will always believe that if Bias had not died Bird would have won at least two more championships, and quite possibly three, which would have given him a total of six. Not only would Bias have been a major contributor to the team -- similar to Worthy for the Lakers -- he would have taken a lot of the stress off of Bird, which would have allowed him to stay healthier and play several more seasons.

Had those things occurred, which they very well could have, Bird would likely be regarded as the greatest player of all time. Even without those things occurring many consider peak Bird to be the highest level any basketball player has attained.

"Many" as a raw number? Absolutely. "Many" as a percentage of celtics fans? Definitely.

"Many" as a percentage of overall basketball fans (without including any subjective modifiers like "smart", or "knowledgable" which are just cheap ways to take a shot at anyone that disagrees)? Not a chance.

I'd guess even if you restrict a poll of NBA fans who are at least 40-45 or so, and were likely to have witnessed "prime bird", you're unlikely to find anything approaching a majority that agree that peak Bird was "the highest level any basketball player has attained". He's great, an all timer for sure - and a top 5-10 all-timer easy. But I think MOST people would believe there's a big gap between the top 3-4 guys and the rest - even at the absolute zenith of their powers.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Russell was undoubtedly a great player, great leader and great winner.

FWIW, I would argue (in hindsight admittedly) that Havlicek was the best player on the '68 and '69 championship teams, years in which Russell averaged 12.5 and 9.9 ppg, respectively.

I also think the "Russell as ultimate winner = Russell as greatest player" logic glosses over - if not outright ignores - some inconvenient facts, namely:

Number of championships won without at least 3 future HoF teammates - ZERO

Number of years Russell led the Celtics in scoring in the regular season or playoffs - ZERO

Number of times Russell was named 1st Team All-NBA - 3 (OUT OF 13 SEASONS)

Number of times Russell had the ball in his hands with a Finals game on the line - NO IDEA, BUT SAFE TO SAY IT WAS FAR FEWER THAN MJ, LEBRON OR KAREEM

Why is Tom Brady considered the GOAT in football? Not because of his individual statistics. Football is a team sport, and Brady led his teams to NFL championships.

Likewise, basketball is a team sport. The great players make their teammates better and win team championships. There’s no player who measures up to Bill Russell in making his teammates better and his teams winners. Russell’s teams won the championships ... NCAA, NBA, Olympics.

Bill Russell may not have taken/made the winning shot, but he likely set it up with intimidating defense, ferocious rebounding, and some amazing passing. He is the GOAT.

[arnie]

I guess I’m alone in having no interest or watching none of it. Bird, Russell, Magic, Curry, Pistol Pete, the Big O. All the Duke guys like Hill, Hurley and Laettner. Never was interested in Jordan, rooted for Charles in the finals.

No, you’re not alone, I will not turn it on.

[dukelifer]

No, you’re not alone, I will not turn it on.

I rooted against the Bulls in most of their championships - but this is also a documentary on that period of time in basketball. Hard to know how we got to the current state of the game without understanding the past. This is a time when both college ball and the NBA were in their primes, imho.

[bigperm13]

No, you’re not alone, I will not turn it on.

I won't give it a second. Michael Jordan can go you know what himself.

[J4Kop99]

Agreed. And it seemed like about half the time he did play he had some nagging injury.

Greatest “What if” in Boston Celtic history: what if Len Bias hadn’t died? How many more championships would Bird & Co have won? I have to believe they’d have won the rubber match in their 80’s bouts with the Lakers [ducks head as LA fans blow up].

Rather than use the off-season to rest his body, he would head back to French Lick and lay pavement and shovel gravel for his moms driveway...


You were making good money, Larry! Just pay a few teenagers. They show his mom's house in the magic/bird documentary. That driveway was HUGE!

[dukebluesincebirth]

I guess I’m alone in having no interest or watching none of it. Bird, Russell, Magic, Curry, Pistol Pete, the Big O. All the Duke guys like Hill, Hurley and Laettner. Never was interested in Jordan, rooted for Charles in the finals.

I might watch some of it because there's absolutely nothing else to watch, but you are certainly not alone in your disinterest of Jordan. Never rooted for him, he's a tarhole, and always rooted for Charles as well. Plus Jordan traveled about 50% of the time he made a move to the basket. Respect him as a great player, but Lebron is better all-around.

[SouthernDukie]

I might watch some of it because there's absolutely nothing else to watch, but you are certainly not alone in your disinterest of Jordan. Never rooted for him, he's a Tar Heel, and always rooted for Charles as well. Plus Jordan traveled about 50% of the time he made a move to the basket. Respect him as a great player, but Lebron is better all-around.

Agreed on all points. Never rooted for Jordan - he is/was/will always be a Tar Heel. Don't understand why any Duke fan would.

[wsb3]

I will always believe that if Bias had not died Bird would have won at least two more championships, and quite possibly three, which would have given him a total of six. Not only would Bias have been a major contributor to the team -- similar to Worthy for the Lakers -- he would have taken a lot of the stress off of Bird, which would have allowed him to stay healthier and play several more seasons.

I think that is a very fair speculation. The tragic death of Len Bias is one of those moments, at least for me, where you remember where you were when you heard the news.

I remember watching the game vs Duke in 86 which Duke won but I marveled at Bias, as he put up 40 against us.

[weezie]

I guess I’m alone in having no interest or watching none of it...

You are absolutely not alone. Haven't seen a second of it and have no interest.

Signed, weezie the Detroiter.

[bullettoothtony]

Agreed on all points. Never rooted for Jordan - he is/was/will always be a Tar Heel. Don't understand why any Duke fan would.

I love Jordan as a player. He remains the GOAT and I couldn't care less where he went to college. The rivalry simply doesn't induce that kind of bias in me.

To each his or her own I suppose.

And I'm watching every minute of The Last Dance. I wouldn't miss it.

[luvdahops]

Why is Tom Brady considered the GOAT in football? Not because of his individual statistics. Football is a team sport, and Brady led his teams to NFL championships.

Likewise, basketball is a team sport. The great players make their teammates better and win team championships. There’s no player who measures up to Bill Russell in making his teammates better and his teams winners. Russell’s teams won the championships ... NCAA, NBA, Olympics.

Bill Russell may not have taken/made the winning shot, but he likely set it up with intimidating defense, ferocious rebounding, and some amazing passing. He is the GOAT.

Flawed comparison, as Brady's stats are very much part of his GOAT argument. He ranks 2nd all-time in TDs and passing yards, and 5th best all-time in passer rating and interception percentage. He was among the league leaders in those categories throughout most of his career. The guys ahead of him in passer rating and interception percentage all started their careers later, and benefited more from loosening of rules for the passing game. Football is a team sport, but QB is the most important position by a wide margin, and Brady was the best at it for much of his career, and not just because he won championships. Russell wasn't even the best center of his era, much less the best player of all time.

[Travis]

I do not really want to debate who is the GOAT, although to me it is Jordan, but there is no way Bill Russell is not the best center of his era.

I presume the argument is that Wilt is better. Head to head with Russell, with good surrounding talent, Wilt won one championship. And one more after, Russell retired when it is not clear that Wilt was the best man on the Laker team. Admittedly Bill Simmons is biased, but anyone who thinks Russell was not better than Wilt should read his long chapter just destroying that argument. I Grew up in NY hating the Celtics and It is still completely convincing.

Now a more interesting question is was Russell the best center of all time? And I think the answer is no. I think Kareem has to be put there, even though comparing eras is always difficult.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I do not really want to debate who is the GOAT, although to me it is Jordan, but there is no way Bill Russell is not the best center of his era.

I presume the argument is that Wilt is better. Head to head with Russell, with good surrounding talent, Wilt won one championship. And one more after, Russell retired when it is not clear that Wilt was the best man on the Laker team. Admittedly Bill Simmons is biased, but anyone who thinks Russell was not better than Wilt should read his long chapter just destroying that argument. I Grew up in NY hating the Celtics and It is still completely convincing.

Now a more interesting question is was Russell the best center of all time? And I think the answer is no. I think Kareem has to be put there, even though comparing eras is always difficult.

If you have time on your hands, look up the stats on Russell v Wilt. Amazing numbers on both sides.

My best center would be Kareem, for being so good for so long.

[-jk]

If you have time on your hands, look up the stats on Russell v Wilt. Amazing numbers on both sides.

My best center would be Kareem, for being so good for so long.

My dad said he didn't work hard enough on defense.

-jk

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

My dad said he didn't work hard enough on defense.

-jk

I get that reference!

[luvdahops]

I get that reference!

Me too - well played by jk

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I get that reference!

Pardon me, I speak jive.

[JasonEvans]

My dad said he didn't work hard enough on defense.

Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes!

-Jason "for a moment, I thought 'I wonder how many folks will get this brilliant joke by -jk?' and then I remembered... this is the DBR, tons of folks will get it" Evans

[duketaylor]

“Roger, Roger”, “What’s your vector, Victor?”
“And don’t call me “Shirley!”
Too many great lines!!

[SouthernDukie]

Pardon me, I speak jive.

How did we get all the way to June Cleaver on this thread?

[kako]

This thread really needs Episodes 3 and 4...

9F

[ClosetHurleyFan]

My dad said he didn't work hard enough on defense.

-jk

Best thing I have seen on here in a long time.

[AZLA]

Interesting fact: “Pippen's $109.19 million career earnings were greater than Michael Jordan's $93.29 million, which even includes His Airness' salary during his 18-month baseball hiatus. Jordan made most of his NBA salary in his final two years with the Bulls, earning over $30 million each season.”

Thanks google. Makes me feel better that Scotty made ink happen.

[rsvman]

Yeah, I know how this thing ends. MJ shoves-off Bryon Russell and gets away with it. Kinda like Jordan’s alma mater.

Way behind on this thread, so I just saw this today.

"I must spread comments around, yada yada yada.."


Also not mentioned much, if ever, is that in one of the games held in Salt Lake City, one of the Bulls players was credited with three points when his foot was on the line AND one of the Jazz players was only given two when replays clearly showed the shot was a three (pretty sure it was Hornacek). I think it might have been the same game in which Jordan shoves off to make the winning basket, but I'm not sure if it was the same game or not. In any case, the Jazz got robbed.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I've heard for years that Jordan's "Flu Game" was more of a "hangover game." Wonder if this theory will get any play?

[wsb3]

My dad said he didn't work hard enough on defense.

-jk

This is so good jk & I was a little slow to get it.

[subzero02]

I've heard for years that Jordan's "Flu Game" was more of a "hangover game." Wonder if this theory will get any play?

I really doubt this. Jordan looked extremely sick when he was on the bench during this game and seemed to be struggling with an intense fever. Also, Jordan was a veteran night owl drinker/partier in top physical condition who had access to IV fluids and other remedies(stimulants) to help power through the effects of a hangover. The amount of alcohol that he would've needed to consume to create the effects he displayed in that game likely would have landed him in the ER.

This article from the "Undefeated" places doubt on the idea that it was the flu and blames food poisoning from a pizza delivery.

https://theundefeated.com/features/nba-finals-history-michael-jordan-flu-game/

[tteettimes]

This is so good jk & I was a little slow to get it.

Ok....I’m the only one.....I’m the only one that doesn’t get it....
I hate not getting the most clever tacit meaning of that one...".i guess that means I’ll be left in the dark huh ??
No splainin for me??

[BlueDevil2K]

Ok...I’m the only one....I’m the only one that doesn’t get it...
I hate not getting the most clever tacit meaning of that one...".i guess that means I’ll be left in the dark huh ??
No splainin for me??

Maybe this will help? ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArHNrCvwq4c

[weezie]

I wonder if Jordan can throw a frisbee?

Random musing...

[tteettimes]

Maybe this will help? ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArHNrCvwq4c

Thanks......I had no clue whatsoever......poor kid huh?? 😂😂

[subzero02]

The bitterness between the Bulls and the Pistons is still quite alive and well; I wonder if they will address the widely held belief that Jordan blackballed Thomas from the dream team

[bullettoothtony]

Episodes 3 and 4 were outstanding. This documentary is just excellent so far.

[Steven43]

Jordan blackballed Thomas from the dream team
Could not have happened to a nicer guy (Thomas). 😉

[luvdahops]

The bitterness between the Bulls and the Pistons is still quite alive and well; I wonder if they will address the widely held belief that Jordan blackballed Thomas from the dream team

I don't know if they will on the Last Dance, but it was definitely addressed in the Basketball: A Love Story series that ran on ESPN (and which I have been watching again recently). Interestingly, that piece positioned it as more than just a Jordan blackball, noting that by that time, pretty much the whole NBA hated Isiah, including Bird and Magic, with whom he had once been pretty friendly. As a result, even Dream Team HC Chuck Daly was powerless to advocate for Thomas.

[J4Kop99]

Isiah's track record off the court speaks for itself. He is not well liked. And for good reason.

It definitely says something when even James Dolan has to distance himself from you.

[kako]

Thomas was always a punk. I will admit a dark secret - I started rooting for Carolina against Indiana in the 1981 finals. It didn't start that way - I was kind of pulling for IU, even though I thought Knight was a jerk and Thomas was a punk. But as the game went on, and IU started pulling away, the camera kept focusing on Thomas. Ugh. I silently started hoping for a comeback to wipe that smugness off his face. It never came, and IU won. So at least I can say I have never celebrated a Carolina win. (Technically, El Deano coached the 1976 Olympic team, and they won, and I celebrated. But they wore a much better shade of blue. And at least Tate Armstrong was on the team, as well as State's Kenny Carr, though a ton of Tarheels also were).

Also hated Detroit and the Bad Boys, they made the NBA game so damn ugly. Thomas being on that team was just fitting. If Jordan used his star power to keep Thomas off the Dream Team, I don't blame him. What goes around, comes around.

9F

[ice-9]

Isiah's track record off the court speaks for itself. He is not well liked. And for good reason.

It definitely says something when even James Dolan has to distance himself from you.

I didn't follow basketball closely until well into the 90s, so don't know much about Isiah Thomas. Why was he so hated, aside from the Bad Boy tactics of the Pistons?

[AZLA]

You have to admit that the Last Dance and all of the positive coverage around it is because the NBA was so much better to watch and be invested in during the 80s and 90s; much better than it is today. Either that or a month and 1/2 social distancing is fogging the brain. I think it's the former.

[subzero02]

I didn't follow basketball closely until well into the 90s, so don't know much about Isiah Thomas. Why was he so hated, aside from the Bad Boy tactics of the Pistons?

He is generally seen as a dirty player. In Jordan's first all star appearance, Thomas apparently told the other Eastern conference all stars to not to pass Jordan the ball. When the bulls finally eliminated the pistons in the eastern conference playoffs, Thomas and several other players walked to the locker room with time still on the clock so they wouldn't have to congratulate Jordan and the bulls via a post game handshake. If you watch the documentary, it is obvious that Jordan is still infuriated by Thomas' handshake snub.


Edit: I am not sure why Magic and Bird dislike him. I know he was especially close to Magic at one point... they'd literally do a side kiss on the cheek before tipoff when they met on the court.

[MPandolfi]

Edit: I am not sure why Magic and Bird dislike him. I know he was especially close to Magic at one point... they'd literally do a side kiss on the cheek before tipoff when they met on the court.

If I remember correctly Magic was upset at rumors that Thomas claimed he was gay or bisexual.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

If I remember correctly Magic was upset at rumors that Thomas claimed he was gay or bisexual.

Magic and Thomas are cool now.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2750190-magic-johnson-isiah-thomas-reconcile-mutual-animosity-in-nba-tv-interview

[Natty_B]

Woof I really disagree with the front page take on this doc. Good lord. I mean: "As great as they were and are, in the case of James, they never stood alone, not really." Wut?? Lebron with a half broken Kevin Love and Kyrie (who has hardly distinguished himself as a winner at any other juncture of his career) beat a Warriors team that had won 73 games. It's probably the all time NBA example of standing alone.

Also this bon mot: "Just for fun, imagine Christian Laettner as part of that group. Those three would have pushed each other to incredible levels." Would this be the same Laettner that Jordan tried to break in half during '92 dream team scrimmages? MJ was never really about pushing teammates to another level just crapping them into willing submission.

There is more I disagree with but looking at it is giving me a little case of vertigo. Anyways this is a MJ produced doc designed to put MJ in the best light possible so that MJ can continue to do what he really loves - sell overpriced and overrated shoes. Odd that it worked so well on a Duke site.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Woof I really disagree with the front page take on this doc. Good lord.

You also disagree with a lot of America. Not that it is necessarily a bad thing.

[Natty_B]

You also disagree with a lot of America. Not that it is necessarily a bad thing.

For sure. MJ was always good, and lucky, at marketing. And dropping this doc when for the first time since what, the 1870's, that there haven't been any live sports in the nation was a masterstroke. Everybody run out and buy these!!!! https://www.nike.com/launch/t/air-jordan-6-travis-scott

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

For sure. MJ was always good, and lucky, at marketing. And dropping this doc when for the first time since what, the 1870's, that there haven't been any live sports in the nation was a masterstroke. Everybody run out and buy these!!!! https://www.nike.com/launch/t/air-jordan-6-travis-scott

It has a little zipper for your pocket change

[subzero02]

For sure. MJ was always good, and lucky, at marketing. And dropping this doc when for the first time since what, the 1870's, that there haven't been any live sports in the nation was a masterstroke. Everybody run out and buy these!!!! https://www.nike.com/launch/t/air-jordan-6-travis-scott


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkY7W6kCRY4

It's gotta be the shoes

[J4Kop99]

I didn't follow basketball closely until well into the 90s, so don't know much about Isiah Thomas. Why was he so hated, aside from the Bad Boy tactics of the Pistons?

Here are just a few:

1. freezing MJ out of all-star game
2. Saying that Bird would just be a regular player if he was black and then having that statement blow up in his face
3. Alluding to the idea that Magic might be a homosexual after the HIV/Aids news broke (they were good friends prior to this. Compare it to how Larry Bird dealt with the news..)
4. About a billion different things while running the knicks
5.Ditto with Indiana and Toronto
6. Accused of sexual harassment when with the Knicks

the list goes on... He's a con man. Was a great basketball player, though. I'll give him that.

[Rich]

Here are just a few:

1. freezing MJ out of all-star game
2. Saying that Bird would just be a regular player if he was black and then having that statement blow up in his face
3. Alluding to the idea that Magic might be a homosexual after the HIV/Aids news broke (they were good friends prior to this. Compare it to how Larry Bird dealt with the news..)
4. About a billion different things while running the knicks
5.Ditto with Indiana and Toronto
6. Accused of sexual harassment when with the Knicks

the list goes on... He's a con man. Was a great basketball player, though. I'll give him that.

Not to mention a bad businessman


In August 1999, the CBA's teams were purchased by an investment group led by former NBA star Isiah Thomas. The group bought all of the individually owned franchises of the CBA, in a $10 million acquisition. Over the course of the next 18 months, Thomas was faced with a plethora of business troubles, losing the league’s partnership with the NBA and ultimately abandoning the league into a blind trust that left teams unable to meet payroll or pay bills. The combined-ownership plan was unsuccessful and by 2001, the CBA had declared bankruptcy and ceased operations (folded on February 8, 2001 without managing to complete the 2000–01 season).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Basketball_Association

[jipops]

I’m enjoying the doc while also keeping this in mind,

https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-to-watch-hulus-normal-people-offers-young-love-escapism-11588186998

[lotusland]

I’m enjoying the doc while also keeping this in mind,

https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-to-watch-hulus-normal-people-offers-young-love-escapism-11588186998

I wonder if you linked the wrong article? I do want to try that show when I finish Bosch.

[bundabergdevil]

Caught up this morning. So far, MJ is the least interesting person featured, IMO. Really interesting backstories and paths on Pippen, Rodman, Jackson, etc. They're also pretty interesting to listen to in the current interviews. Jerry Krause dancing was...not great.

I don't know, MJ was a singular talent and had otherworldly competitive fire, but his perspective and reflection hasn't been all that interesting to me.

Rodman's Vegas trip...Can you just imagine that today mid-season? That was great. Manziel had to slink off in disguise for his sabbatical. Rodman OWNED it. I love it.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

"As a commodity, Michael Jordan is as hot as a Cabbage Patch doll..."

[roywhite]

Can we blame Michael Jordan's partnership with Nike for Zion Williamson's knee injury while at Duke?

The huge success of Jordan's brand made Nike more of a marketer than a great shoe builder, leading to a sub-standard product that failed for Zion?

Just a thought...:)

[Duke79UNLV77]

Woof I really disagree with the front page take on this doc. Good lord. I mean: "As great as they were and are, in the case of James, they never stood alone, not really." Wut?? Lebron with a half broken Kevin Love and Kyrie (who has hardly distinguished himself as a winner at any other juncture of his career) beat a Warriors team that had won 73 games. It's probably the all time NBA example of standing alone.

Also this bon mot: "Just for fun, imagine Christian Laettner as part of that group. Those three would have pushed each other to incredible levels." Would this be the same Laettner that Jordan tried to break in half during '92 dream team scrimmages? MJ was never really about pushing teammates to another level just crapping them into willing submission.

There is more I disagree with but looking at it is giving me a little case of vertigo. Anyways this is a MJ produced doc designed to put MJ in the best light possible so that MJ can continue to do what he really loves - sell overpriced and overrated shoes. Odd that it worked so well on a Duke site.

While I agree in placing MJ above LeBron as the best I've ever seen, it never ceases to amaze me how much people on DBR strain to give no credit to Kyrie, as if he had nothing to do with the Cavs making 3 straight NBA Finals and winning one against a historically great opponent. In the 2016 Finals, Kyrie averaged 27.1 ppg on 47% shooting, 41% from 3, and 94% from the FT line. I remember seeing before that he even had one of the highest defensive ratings in the series. He can and does step up his defense in the biggest games. I also seem to remember him hitting a big shot, when all of the other stars were clanging shot after shot at the end of Game 7. In the 2017 Finals, Kyrie averaged 29.4 ppg, shooting 47%, 42%, and 90%. He also turns the ball over at a very low rate compared to other star guards. I agree that, beyond LeBron and Kyrie, the Cavs were Lotter-level bad. Beyond MJ and Pippen, the Bulls were better, but still there was a big drop off. I don't recall Pippen winning any championships without MJ either. Pippen deserves his HOF status, but so does Kyrie.

[jwillfan]

Just watched eps 3 and 4 last evening, will catch up to 5 and 6 later. But a good chunk of the Rodman/Bad Boys section seemed like one long subtweet about the modern game - and its stars like LeBron and maybe Durant and Curry - and how they no way would have survived the "Jordan Rules" or any fraction of the physicality that MJ handled. They threw everything they had at him and couldn't stop him! I'm not saying it's right but I thought the subtext wasn't so sub

[Kdogg]

Just watched eps 3 and 4 last evening, will catch up to 5 and 6 later. But a good chunk of the Rodman/Bad Boys section seemed like one long subtweet about the modern game - and its stars like LeBron and maybe Durant and Curry - and how they no way would have survived the "Jordan Rules" or any fraction of the physicality that MJ handled. They threw everything they had at him and couldn't stop him! I'm not saying it's right but I thought the subtext wasn't so sub

LeBron would have been fine. The others, not so most.

[Hingeknocker]

LeBron would have been fine. The others, not so most.

I think players like Russell Westbrook *really* would have struggled with the game of the 80s/90s. Anyone who thrives on getting to the basket would have been stunned by the physicality required to do so back then. Giannis is an interesting thought experiment. He also relies on getting to the basket, but would his frame and sheer athleticism allow him to match up with those defenses?

On the other hand, for guys like Curry and Durant that can shoot from any and everywhere? They would dominate back then. James Harden is also an interesting thought experiment - he can shoot from basically anywhere, but he also wouldn't be able to rack up foul shots like he does in today's game.

I'm one who does not consider Jordan to be the GOAT, but the one undeniable thing about him is that he put up with the Jordan Rules and eventually defeated them. Watching those highlights of the Bad Boy Pistons was vomit inducing, and it's a huge credit to Jordan that he basically single-handedly excised that type of play from the game and dragged the game in a different direction through sheer force of dominance. Basketball is much, much, much better off because of it.

[ChillinDuke]

I'm loving Last Dance. I grew up primarily in the 90s as a Knicks fan with Ewing, Starks, Oakley, etc. I hated MJ as the opponent we could never really defeat. But I knew, even as a young kid, that you had to respect him and that he was special.

Looking back on that time and seeing it summarized in documentary format, it has only solidified my view that MJ is the GOAT. Putting aside skills and off-court backdrops, the man just had (and presumably has) the most competitive desire I have ever seen. He simply never turns it off. Everything is a competition. Literally everything. Flipping coins with John Michael Wozniak was a freaking competition...for money! The guy just will not let anything go.

I struggle to see that same endless desire to win today. Period. Let alone in basketball. I just don't know if players today would have the patience to deal with it day in and day out. I think MJ would tire everyone out.

It just seems like MJ never came up short when he wanted something on the court. How can I overlook that and claim someone else better? MJ. GOAT.

- Chillin

[MartyClark]

I'm loving Last Dance. I grew up primarily in the 90s as a Knicks fan with Ewing, Starks, Oakley, etc. I hated MJ as the opponent we could never really defeat. But I knew, even as a young kid, that you had to respect him and that he was special.

Looking back on that time and seeing it summarized in documentary format, it has only solidified my view that MJ is the GOAT. Putting aside skills and off-court backdrops, the man just had (and presumably has) the most competitive desire I have ever seen. He simply never turns it off. Everything is a competition. Literally everything. Flipping coins with John Michael Wozniak was a freaking competition...for money! The guy just will not let anything go.

I struggle to see that same endless desire to win today. Period. Let alone in basketball. I just don't know if players today would have the patience to deal with it day in and day out. I think MJ would tire everyone out.

It just seems like MJ never came up short when he wanted something on the court. How can I overlook that and claim someone else better? MJ. GOAT.

- Chillin

I'm with you on this. I tried to make the same point upstream on this thread but you have said it much better.

[bullettoothtony]

I'm loving Last Dance. I grew up primarily in the 90s as a Knicks fan with Ewing, Starks, Oakley, etc. I hated MJ as the opponent we could never really defeat. But I knew, even as a young kid, that you had to respect him and that he was special.

Looking back on that time and seeing it summarized in documentary format, it has only solidified my view that MJ is the GOAT. Putting aside skills and off-court backdrops, the man just had (and presumably has) the most competitive desire I have ever seen. He simply never turns it off. Everything is a competition. Literally everything. Flipping coins with John Michael Wozniak was a freaking competition...for money! The guy just will not let anything go.

I struggle to see that same endless desire to win today. Period. Let alone in basketball. I just don't know if players today would have the patience to deal with it day in and day out. I think MJ would tire everyone out.

It just seems like MJ never came up short when he wanted something on the court. How can I overlook that and claim someone else better? MJ. GOAT.

- Chillin


Absolutely agree.

B.J. Armstrong in one of the episodes offered some really insightful comments about how Jordan was able to steer momentum in games unlike anyone else, on both ends of the floor. It's absolutely spot-on. IMO Jordan was able to impact the outcomes of critical games at a level I've never seen from anyone else. And it certainly goes far beyond hitting clutch baskets.

[bundabergdevil]

I think players like Russell Westbrook *really* would have struggled with the game of the 80s/90s. Anyone who thrives on getting to the basket would have been stunned by the physicality required to do so back then. Giannis is an interesting thought experiment. He also relies on getting to the basket, but would his frame and sheer athleticism allow him to match up with those defenses?

On the other hand, for guys like Curry and Durant that can shoot from any and everywhere? They would dominate back then. James Harden is also an interesting thought experiment - he can shoot from basically anywhere, but he also wouldn't be able to rack up foul shots like he does in today's game.

I'm one who does not consider Jordan to be the GOAT, but the one undeniable thing about him is that he put up with the Jordan Rules and eventually defeated them. Watching those highlights of the Bad Boy Pistons was vomit inducing, and it's a huge credit to Jordan that he basically single-handedly excised that type of play from the game and dragged the game in a different direction through sheer force of dominance. Basketball is much, much, much better off because of it.

It's always fun to drop a player (without any changes to their game) in a different era and wonder how they would perform. Count me in the group that say Lebron would have been just fine. He is bigger and stronger than most of those guys --- and much more skilled than all but a few.

I also think Curry and any of our current 3-point marksmen would have been fine. I mean, could you imagine Curry pulling up on 80s/90s defenses? They'd think he was a freaking wizard launching shots from 5-10 feet behind the arc. He would have carved those defenses up.

Now, Westbrook and other drive-happy, ball-dominant, low 3-point efficiency players? Not so much. They would have been in for a world of hurt.

Count me in the camp though that if you dropped most of those 80s and 90s great teams into the modern NBA, they wouldn't come close to winning a NBA championship. The game has evolved, innovated, and become much more efficient. The average player is also in better physical condition than any of those cigar-chomping, beer swilling, 80/90s guys. They'd run their fore bearers off the court, no doubt about it. The old guys would be huffing and puffing by the end of the first quarter...

[J4Kop99]

The only point I would make about LeBron is that if you watch him closely, he is and has never been a confident/great free-throw shooter. In fact, there have been moments in big games where (and this is my opinion) he has shied away from taking the ball to the hoop in fear of getting fouled and having to go to the line. In an era where it was all about "making you earn every point" I am not so sure he would thrive as much as some of us assume. He'd have to improve his FT shooting to fully take advantage of his size and strength.

However, I will agree that with his size, skill and athleticism, he'd certainly have the tools to dominate. I just think that some of the few weaknesses he has in his game would be magnified during the late 80's and 90's.

Curry's bones are made of thin glass -- he'd be broken in half when trying to drive the lane. Harden would be an interesting one. He's big enough to take a beating and is such a pure shooter he can make you pay in every way.

Someone like Durant would be fascinating to watch play in that era. I guess the Bulls would put Pippen on him and then attempt to beat him down as he gets closer to the rim.



Last thing: I just can't imagine any of today's stars being able to handle the physicality + the high pressure situations. In fact, they've proven that they cannot. Jordan's mental toughness is what separates him from the stars of today. Kobe aside. But even Kobe could not think and control the game like Jordan. And Kobe had some major debacles in big spots. No bigger than game 6 vs. Boston in '08.

[Hingeknocker]

It's always fun to drop a player (without any changes to their game) in a different era and wonder how they would perform. Count me in the group that say Lebron would have been just fine. He is bigger and stronger than most of those guys --- and much more skilled than all but a few.

I also think Curry and any of our current 3-point marksmen would have been fine. I mean, could you imagine Curry pulling up on 80s/90s defenses? They'd think he was a freaking wizard launching shots from 5-10 feet behind the arc. He would have carved those defenses up.

Now, Westbrook and other drive-happy, ball-dominant, low 3-point efficiency players? Not so much. They would have been in for a world of hurt.

Count me in the camp though that if you dropped most of those 80s and 90s great teams into the modern NBA, they wouldn't come close to winning a NBA championship. The game has evolved, innovated, and become much more efficient. The average player is also in better physical condition than any of those cigar-chomping, beer swilling, 80/90s guys. They'd run their fore bearers off the court, no doubt about it. The old guys would be huffing and puffing by the end of the first quarter...

Exactly, and great point about basically any 3-point marksman fitting in to the game of the previous era. It doesn't have to be someone like Curry with superhuman, game-breaking ability. Can you imagine JJ Redick playing the John Paxson role on the early 90s Bulls? Or Kyle Korver?

The other thing that has changed over time is ball-handling ability. Consider Kyrie. He's a good enough shooter that he probably could have been just fine launching 3s against those packed in defense. But he's also a wizard with the ball in his hands, something those defenders would never have seen before at the NBA level. I can imagine him still unlocking that part of his game and getting to the basket. Some of MJ's contorted, wild finishes in the documentary reminded me so distinctly of the way Kyrie can finish at the rim.

[Nugget]

There doesn't seem like an obvious hook for it given the story they are telling in The Last Dance, but one question I would really want to know MJ's answer to is what he honestly thinks about Len Bias' potential and how close Bias would have come to matching him.

My own view is that, other than perhaps Lebron and Kobe, Bias is the only guy I can see as real competition for MJ (Magic and Bill Russell being wholly different categories than those guys).

[Skydog]

Way to go, Craig!

[duke4ever19]

This documentary is a microcosm of how it felt to be a basketball fan who didn't drink deep from the special concoction that the NBA, Nike, Gatorade, McDonald's and all the other companies had mixed for 90's kids.

That Garry Payton bit in episode 8 really sums up how Jordan apologetics work. The Bulls are supposed to be cruising to the title and Seattle is literally dismissed as having any chance to even challenge that Bulls team.

Gary Payton then insists on guarding Jordan, and suddenly the Bulls and Jordan look beatable. Well, Jordan apologetics MUST have a response to this, so they show Jordan watching that clip of Payton saying that he felt that if he could pester Jordan with constant, incessant pressure, he could be worn down. Jordan is shown laughing it off as if it was never true, and Jodan says Payton "wasn't a problem." Go back and watch those games, though. Payton was doing exactly that, and it was working. That doesn't mean they were going to win the series, but it means that Payton isn't spouting b.s.
Then, as if to provide an explanation for any off-night, or success against Jordan, the documentary shifts to this existential crisis . . . "it was Father's Day around that time."

This is reveals the working formula for Jordan apologetics: Problems on the court, are routinely explained away by off-court issues, while Jordan's off-court-issues are explained away by on-court 'competitiveness' just spilling-over to other stuff. It's literally that formula.

That's what I always detested with the 90's Jordan mania. It felt like an overt assault on common sense, on what I knew to be true by watching the game.

Sure, Jordan was an amazing player, and likely the GOAT, but it always felt like I was being indoctrinated by a kind of propaganda. Every Jordan shortcoming is explained away as "competitive fire," or "rite of passage," or "not in basketball shape yet," "well his dad died, sooo."

I do not think LeBron is necessarily the superior player or competitor, but I also know that he doesn't get anywhere near that kind of treatment. You think any of LeBron's losses in the playoffs will be explained away by some off-court issue? Even if there were such a circumstance, I know the pundits would say, "You gotta bring it no matter what. That's what a GOAT would do, so LeBron isn't the GOAT. Meanwhile, this whole documentary is doing exactly that.

Again, I don't hate Jordan and I think he is likely the GOAT or at least in the top-3, no matter the era. I just dislike the Kool-Aid, and there is TONS of Kool-Aid being passed around in this documentary.

[camion]

One interesting thing I have noticed is that ESPN is advertising the heck out of the Dance. There have even been ads for the program on the HALLMARK CHANNEL.*



*Who would be inclined to watch both Hallmark and ESPN. Certainly not me. :eek:

[dukebluesincebirth]

Good post, and I agree... you just left out one other piece: getting to travel with the ball on nearly every move to the basket with no call, then getting hand-check foul calls (I’m sure these 2 helped against Payton). I used to love hearing “Duke gets all the calls!” While I watch Jordan lift both feet on every spin move to the basket, go around the defender, and lay it in.


This documentary is a microcosm of how it felt to be a basketball fan who didn't drink deep from the special concoction that the NBA, Nike, Gatorade, McDonald's and all the other companies had mixed for 90's kids.

That Garry Payton bit in episode 8 really sums up how Jordan apologetics work. The Bulls are supposed to be cruising to the title and Seattle is literally dismissed as having any chance to even challenge that Bulls team.

Gary Payton then insists on guarding Jordan, and suddenly the Bulls and Jordan look beatable. Well, Jordan apologetics MUST have a response to this, so they show Jordan watching that clip of Payton saying that he felt that if he could pester Jordan with constant, incessant pressure, he could be worn down. Jordan is shown laughing it off as if it was never true, and Jodan says Payton "wasn't a problem." Go back and watch those games, though. Payton was doing exactly that, and it was working. That doesn't mean they were going to win the series, but it means that Payton isn't spouting b.s.
Then, as if to provide an explanation for any off-night, or success against Jordan, the documentary shifts to this existential crisis . . . "it was Father's Day around that time."

This is reveals the working formula for Jordan apologetics: Problems on the court, are routinely explained away by off-court issues, while Jordan's off-court-issues are explained away by on-court 'competitiveness' just spilling-over to other stuff. It's literally that formula.

That's what I always detested with the 90's Jordan mania. It felt like an overt assault on common sense, on what I knew to be true by watching the game.

Sure, Jordan was an amazing player, and likely the GOAT, but it always felt like I was being indoctrinated by a kind of propaganda. Every Jordan shortcoming is explained away as "competitive fire," or "rite of passage," or "not in basketball shape yet," "well his dad died, sooo."

I do not think LeBron is necessarily the superior player or competitor, but I also know that he doesn't get anywhere near that kind of treatment. You think any of LeBron's losses in the playoffs will be explained away by some off-court issue? Even if there were such a circumstance, I know the pundits would say, "You gotta bring it no matter what. That's what a GOAT would do, so LeBron isn't the GOAT. Meanwhile, this whole documentary is doing exactly that.

Again, I don't hate Jordan and I think he is likely the GOAT or at least in the top-3, no matter the era. I just dislike the Kool-Aid, and there is TONS of Kool-Aid being passed around in this documentary.

[bundabergdevil]

JJ Redick interviews The Last Dance director on his latest podcast (https://www.theringer.com/the-jj-redick-podcast). Some good stuff on the making of...

[superdave]

One interesting thing I have noticed is that ESPN is advertising the heck out of the Dance. There have even been ads for the program on the HALLMARK CHANNEL.*



*Who would be inclined to watch both Hallmark and ESPN. Certainly not me. :eek:


I would bet ads are pretty cheap right now.....

[ice-9]

This documentary is a microcosm of how it felt to be a basketball fan who didn't drink deep from the special concoction that the NBA, Nike, Gatorade, McDonald's and all the other companies had mixed for 90's kids.

That Garry Payton bit in episode 8 really sums up how Jordan apologetics work. The Bulls are supposed to be cruising to the title and Seattle is literally dismissed as having any chance to even challenge that Bulls team.

Gary Payton then insists on guarding Jordan, and suddenly the Bulls and Jordan look beatable. Well, Jordan apologetics MUST have a response to this, so they show Jordan watching that clip of Payton saying that he felt that if he could pester Jordan with constant, incessant pressure, he could be worn down. Jordan is shown laughing it off as if it was never true, and Jodan says Payton "wasn't a problem." Go back and watch those games, though. Payton was doing exactly that, and it was working. That doesn't mean they were going to win the series, but it means that Payton isn't spouting b.s.
Then, as if to provide an explanation for any off-night, or success against Jordan, the documentary shifts to this existential crisis . . . "it was Father's Day around that time."

This is reveals the working formula for Jordan apologetics: Problems on the court, are routinely explained away by off-court issues, while Jordan's off-court-issues are explained away by on-court 'competitiveness' just spilling-over to other stuff. It's literally that formula.

That's what I always detested with the 90's Jordan mania. It felt like an overt assault on common sense, on what I knew to be true by watching the game.

Sure, Jordan was an amazing player, and likely the GOAT, but it always felt like I was being indoctrinated by a kind of propaganda. Every Jordan shortcoming is explained away as "competitive fire," or "rite of passage," or "not in basketball shape yet," "well his dad died, sooo."

I do not think LeBron is necessarily the superior player or competitor, but I also know that he doesn't get anywhere near that kind of treatment. You think any of LeBron's losses in the playoffs will be explained away by some off-court issue? Even if there were such a circumstance, I know the pundits would say, "You gotta bring it no matter what. That's what a GOAT would do, so LeBron isn't the GOAT. Meanwhile, this whole documentary is doing exactly that.

Again, I don't hate Jordan and I think he is likely the GOAT or at least in the top-3, no matter the era. I just dislike the Kool-Aid, and there is TONS of Kool-Aid being passed around in this documentary.

There is some truth to what you say...and I suspect if the Supersonics had beaten the Bulls that year, history would view Jordan with less Kool-Aid. But the fact of the matter is that Bulls team was one of the greatest of all time and they won the championship (unlike the Warriors). There is substance behind the Kool-Aid.

LeBron doesn't get as much Kool-Aid, but that's also because he lost a few very important series.

[Wahoo2000]

This documentary is a microcosm of how it felt to be a basketball fan who didn't drink deep from the special concoction that the NBA, Nike, Gatorade, McDonald's and all the other companies had mixed for 90's kids.

That Garry Payton bit in episode 8 really sums up how Jordan apologetics work. The Bulls are supposed to be cruising to the title and Seattle is literally dismissed as having any chance to even challenge that Bulls team.

Gary Payton then insists on guarding Jordan, and suddenly the Bulls and Jordan look beatable. Well, Jordan apologetics MUST have a response to this, so they show Jordan watching that clip of Payton saying that he felt that if he could pester Jordan with constant, incessant pressure, he could be worn down. Jordan is shown laughing it off as if it was never true, and Jodan says Payton "wasn't a problem." Go back and watch those games, though. Payton was doing exactly that, and it was working. That doesn't mean they were going to win the series, but it means that Payton isn't spouting b.s.
Then, as if to provide an explanation for any off-night, or success against Jordan, the documentary shifts to this existential crisis . . . "it was Father's Day around that time."

This is reveals the working formula for Jordan apologetics: Problems on the court, are routinely explained away by off-court issues, while Jordan's off-court-issues are explained away by on-court 'competitiveness' just spilling-over to other stuff. It's literally that formula.

That's what I always detested with the 90's Jordan mania. It felt like an overt assault on common sense, on what I knew to be true by watching the game.

Sure, Jordan was an amazing player, and likely the GOAT, but it always felt like I was being indoctrinated by a kind of propaganda. Every Jordan shortcoming is explained away as "competitive fire," or "rite of passage," or "not in basketball shape yet," "well his dad died, sooo."

I do not think LeBron is necessarily the superior player or competitor, but I also know that he doesn't get anywhere near that kind of treatment. You think any of LeBron's losses in the playoffs will be explained away by some off-court issue? Even if there were such a circumstance, I know the pundits would say, "You gotta bring it no matter what. That's what a GOAT would do, so LeBron isn't the GOAT. Meanwhile, this whole documentary is doing exactly that.

Again, I don't hate Jordan and I think he is likely the GOAT or at least in the top-3, no matter the era. I just dislike the Kool-Aid, and there is TONS of Kool-Aid being passed around in this documentary.

Point by point, or "bolded by bolded" as it were:
1) Jordan had problems on the court? Not really aware of this - once he won a title, he won it every time he played until he retired *excepting*.....
2) "not in basketball shape yet". I'm no Jordan fanboy, but even I'll admit that nearly 2 years training specifically for baseball and not playing basketball at a professional level is more of a reason than an excuse for not winning a title in '95
3) LeBron's losses - with the plural being the operative phrase. LeBron is great - GREAT. But he just hasn't dominated regarding controlling the crown every time he played the majority of a season for nearly a decade. It's true that Jordan didn't have to deal with a super-team like the Warriors, and if he did, there might be a different story on him being the GOAT. I don't think he ever wilted when it counted the most in the same way James did in the finals vs Dallas.

I will agree that Jordan's charm and charisma allowed him to be the proverbial golden boy throughout the late 80s and for a chunk into the early 90s. That was an age before the social media era as well as the 24hour news cycle where EVERYTHING celebs do it overanalyzed. I would say that Jordan did also catch an extraordinary amount of grief over the gambling stuff though, and DO agree with the PoV of the doc that some of that irresponsible reporting (i.e. suggesting his gambling was at the root of his father's murder) led to his premature (1st) retirement.

I also agree that Jordan as a person has some serious flaws (that CAN largely be attributed to his insane level of competitive fire, but that's no excuse). The long and short of it is that the guy can be a real "wanker". Just like with Tiger Woods though, people (at least the vast majority of people) will nearly completely forgive/overlook HUGE personality flaws in the face of absolute GREATNESS between the lines/ropes.

TLDR - Jordan was/is kind of a d!c%, but sooooo great that MOST people don't care, or outright ignore it.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

MJ chuckling and shrugging off Payton's discussion of his defense was the most off-putting part of the documentary so far. It would require the slightest humility to say "yeah, you know, Gary got into my head a few games and then I figured it out in time to win the series." But he doesn't give him even that much. Just a belly laugh and a head shake.

Serious jerk.

[jv001]

MJ chuckling and shrugging off Payton's discussion of his defense was the most off-putting part of the documentary so far. It would require the slightest humility to say "yeah, you know, Gary got into my head a few games and then I figured it out in time to win the series." But he doesn't give him even that much. Just a belly laugh and a head shake.

Serious jerk.

I don't remember Jordan being that kind of person(jerk) when he played at uncheat and when he first entered the NBA. But when he became famous, he took it to another level. I'll take Bill Russell as the best basketball player ever and certainly as a better person but that's just my opinion and that doesn't amount to much.

GoDuke!

[ice-9]

MJ chuckling and shrugging off Payton's discussion of his defense was the most off-putting part of the documentary so far. It would require the slightest humility to say "yeah, you know, Gary got into my head a few games and then I figured it out in time to win the series." But he doesn't give him even that much. Just a belly laugh and a head shake.

Serious jerk.

It gave me a laugh, because it was his competitiveness showing through. You could tell he got irked by the idea that the Glove can slow him down. If they were playing a game the next day I'd expect Jordan to go ham on Payton.

I agree with Payton though that if he was sicced on Jordan from the beginning that would've made the series more interesting.

[ChillinDuke]

MJ chuckling and shrugging off Payton's discussion of his defense was the most off-putting part of the documentary so far. It would require the slightest humility to say "yeah, you know, Gary got into my head a few games and then I figured it out in time to win the series." But he doesn't give him even that much. Just a belly laugh and a head shake.

Serious jerk.

That's the point though. You can't have it both ways with Jordan.

If he had the slightest bit of humility, he isn't the player that he was. He doesn't straight crush you on the court, off the court, and everywhere in between. Jordan doesn't give an inch. Ever. Period. That is the whole point of his greatness / the documentary / everything. Jordan's operating system doesn't have humility in its code.

- Chillin

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

That's the point though. You can't have it both ways with Jordan.

If he had the slightest bit of humility, he isn't the player that he was. He doesn't straight crush you on the court, off the court, and everywhere in between. Jordan doesn't give an inch. Ever. Period. That is the whole point of his greatness / the documentary / everything. Jordan's operating system doesn't have humility in its code.

- Chillin

Oh, I get all that and I agree 100%. It was just the most stark example of his inability to even acknowledge a weakness. And yes, without that edge he doesn't win six rings. But at some point it resembles a CEO who only eyes the bottom line, with zero regard for employees, ethics, or the community at large. Which I suppose is fair apt.

[Bluedog]

I don't remember Jordan being that kind of person(jerk) when he played at uncheat and when he first entered the NBA. But when he became famous, he took it to another level. I'll take Bill Russell as the best basketball player ever and certainly as a better person but that's just my opinion and that doesn't amount to much.

GoDuke!

I guess I can't fault him too much, but in my one in person interaction with Bill Russell, I asked if I could take a quick picture with him and I got scolded by the woman he was with (his wife?). Apparently, he's notorious for not giving away his autograph. Not saying that necessarily makes him a bad person and he could certainly be a great guy. Incidentally, he did not reply/acknolwedge my question. :) It was on the campus of Wash U ...he was just standing there alone for several minutes and nobody was bothering him so thought it'd be okay.

[Tripping William]

That's the point though. You can't have it both ways with Jordan.

If he had the slightest bit of humility, he isn't the player that he was. He doesn't straight crush you on the court, off the court, and everywhere in between. Jordan doesn't give an inch. Ever. Period. That is the whole point of his greatness / the documentary / everything. Jordan's operating system doesn't have humility in its code.

- Chillin

Yep. And we have known this since at least his HOF speech.

[duke4ever19]

Point by point, or "bolded by bolded" as it were:
1) Jordan had problems on the court? Not really aware of this - once he won a title, he won it every time he played until he retired *excepting*...
2) "not in basketball shape yet". I'm no Jordan fanboy, but even I'll admit that nearly 2 years training specifically for baseball and not playing basketball at a professional level is more of a reason than an excuse for not winning a title in '95
3) LeBron's losses - with the plural being the operative phrase. LeBron is great - GREAT. But he just hasn't dominated regarding controlling the crown every time he played the majority of a season for nearly a decade. It's true that Jordan didn't have to deal with a super-team like the Warriors, and if he did, there might be a different story on him being the GOAT. I don't think he ever wilted when it counted the most in the same way James did in the finals vs Dallas.

I will agree that Jordan's charm and charisma allowed him to be the proverbial golden boy throughout the late 80s and for a chunk into the early 90s. That was an age before the social media era as well as the 24hour news cycle where EVERYTHING celebs do it overanalyzed. I would say that Jordan did also catch an extraordinary amount of grief over the gambling stuff though, and DO agree with the PoV of the doc that some of that irresponsible reporting (i.e. suggesting his gambling was at the root of his father's murder) led to his premature (1st) retirement.

I also agree that Jordan as a person has some serious flaws (that CAN largely be attributed to his insane level of competitive fire, but that's no excuse). The long and short of it is that the guy can be a real "wanker". Just like with Tiger Woods though, people (at least the vast majority of people) will nearly completely forgive/overlook HUGE personality flaws in the face of absolute GREATNESS between the lines/ropes.

TLDR - Jordan was/is kind of a d!c%, but sooooo great that MOST people don't care, or outright ignore it.

I don't really care about the 'Jordan is a jerk' angle. I'm not critiquing that aspect of his career and it's not so interesting, because it kinda boils down to 'He was mean sometimes.'

Your statement that "once he [Jordan] won a title, he won it every time he played until he retired *excepting*..." is a good example of a common 'Jordan is the GOAT' argument.

It's a representative example for a couple reasons: (1) It obliquely acknowledges a pre-1991 Jordan era, but only as a stepping-stone to the 1991 season. (2) Jordan's GOAT career ends abruptly in 1998. The Wizard's years are barely acknowledged, which creates an interesting, but artificial 'bookend' affect, which treat the events before that time and after that time as murky and largely unimportant, or not something we should hold against him when debating who the GOAT is.

The pre-1991 period is typically only brought up in a very charitable "trial by fire" narrative in which Jordan's years of getting ousted before the Finals are not actually seen as negatives, but just factoids of a fascinating odyssey. I have no problems with that narrative, but I do have problems with the way that kind of charity is quite overtly NOT extended to certain other potential GOAT candidates. In fact, early career playoff losses are brought up constantly to diminish the total career. It is also interesting that other GOATS reached the championship mountaintop sooner than Jordan, but you won't see that used to diminish Jordan, because we know that team sports are complicated.

[JayZee]

Yep. And we have known this since at least his HOF speech.

Yeah, unfortunately MJ really has held onto a lot of anger over the years. Sucks for him more than anyone. He's driven away many good friends, like Charles Barkley.
Really it's too bad. It is also a bit of a statement of his ridiculous charisma that he can be such a pain and still we are all (well maybe not all) drawn to him.

[JasonEvans]

I guess I can't fault him too much, but in my one in person interaction with Bill Russell, I asked if I could take a quick picture with him and I got scolded by the woman he was with (his wife?). Apparently, he's notorious for not giving away his autograph. Not saying that necessarily makes him a bad person and he could certainly be a great guy. Incidentally, he did not reply/acknolwedge my question. :) It was on the campus of Wash U ...he was just standing there alone for several minutes and nobody was bothering him so thought it'd be okay.

Yeah, I was just going to say that Russell's rep is not what one would ordinarily cite as a person who handles his fame and success with perfect grace and humility. I've met a few sports superstars in my time and there are two who stand out above the rest in terms of how they deal with fans and how they handle their success -- David Robinson and Larry Fitzgerald. Both guys are certainly among the greatest of all time at their sport but you would not know it from chatting with them. Perfect gentlemen who seem to treat fans and the public like a special gift to be treasured and appreciated at all times.

[Natty_B]

I don't really care about the 'Jordan is a jerk' angle. I'm not critiquing that aspect of his career and it's not so interesting, because it kinda boils down to 'He was mean sometimes.'

Your statement that "once he [Jordan] won a title, he won it every time he played until he retired *excepting*..." is a good example of a common 'Jordan is the GOAT' argument.

It's a representative example for a couple reasons: (1) It obliquely acknowledges a pre-1991 Jordan era, but only as a stepping-stone to the 1991 season. (2) Jordan's GOAT career ends abruptly in 1998. The Wizard's years are barely acknowledged, which creates an interesting, but artificial 'bookend' affect, which treat the events before that time and after that time as murky and largely unimportant, or not something we should hold against him when debating who the GOAT is.

The pre-1991 period is typically only brought up in a very charitable "trial by fire" narrative in which Jordan's years of getting ousted before the Finals are not actually seen as negatives, but just factoids of a fascinating odyssey. I have no problems with that narrative, but I do have problems with the way that kind of charity is quite overtly NOT extended to certain other potential GOAT candidates. In fact, early career playoff losses are brought up constantly to diminish the total career. It is also interesting that other GOATS reached the championship mountaintop sooner than Jordan, but you won't see that used to diminish Jordan, because we know that team sports are complicated.

Totally agree with this. The MJ narrative means you can't ever nitpick his career (sheesh this week people are trying to say he could have made the Major Leagues by 1996 - I mean c'mon). Where Lebron's career is nitpicked to death (mainly because people, like the front page, are upset about the Decision even though it was a decade ago and Lebron WENT BACK TO CLEVELAND AND WON A TITLE THERE).

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I heard a local sports guy yammering about the documentary say that the difference between MJ and LeBron is that MJ wants you to fear him and bow to him, while James wants you to like him.

Oversimplification? Sure. But definitely a grain of truth.

[SupaDave]

I heard a local sports guy yammering about the documentary say that the difference between MJ and LeBron is that MJ wants you to fear him and bow to him, while James wants you to like him.

Oversimplification? Sure. But definitely a grain of truth.

Yeah - one is a sociopath and the other is well, normal...

[WiJoe]

This is not a documentary in the true sense of the word.

It's a hagiography.

It's a 10-hour feature on Jordan, approved by. Anyone who believes Jordan did not have last say on EVERY SECOND is kidding him/herself.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/nba/story/2020-05-10/michael-jordan-richard-esquinas-golf-gambling-bets-san-diego-sports-arena-nba-last-dance

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

This is not a documentary in the true sense of the word.

It's a hagiography.

It's a 10-hour feature on Jordan, approved by. Anyone who believes Jordan did not have last say on EVERY SECOND is kidding him/herself.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/nba/story/2020-05-10/michael-jordan-richard-esquinas-golf-gambling-bets-san-diego-sports-arena-nba-last-dance

Which makes it even more remarkable that he comes off as such a jerk.

[79-77]

I can understand why some here don't like Jordan, but holy mackerel he is intense and compelling, even now.

"I hated Isiah."

"I took offense at being compared to Drexler."

The look on his face when he was asked about Pippen's migraine in game 7 vs the Pistons.

It's great stuff for this documentary.

[bundabergdevil]

This is not a documentary in the true sense of the word.

It's a hagiography.

It's a 10-hour feature on Jordan, approved by. Anyone who believes Jordan did not have last say on EVERY SECOND is kidding him/herself.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/nba/story/2020-05-10/michael-jordan-richard-esquinas-golf-gambling-bets-san-diego-sports-arena-nba-last-dance

Yeah, I made the point upthread that MJ is the least interesting person in this documentary to me and that's clearly by design. I've really enjoyed the backstory on all the teammates but Jordan is just kind of boring and I think he is clearly and intently adding to the mythology of his singular competitiveness, which I've always thought was a little overblown. It's just hard to be as interested in the subject of a documentary that is driving the narrative about his own deeds.

[duke96]

Which makes it even more remarkable that he comes off as such a jerk.

Can’t spork again but that’s hysterical.

[duke96]

The flu game was the bad pizza game!?! Do we believe this??

[Tripping William]

The flu game was the bad pizza game!?! Do we believe this??

Some SLC pizza delivery mafia poisoned him. Didn’t you know that?? :rolleyes:

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

The flu game was the bad pizza game!?! Do we believe this??

I had always heard it was a hangover.

[Music man55]

After watching the whole 10 episodes, I'll have to agree Jordan is most probably the best ever. But I still don't like him. Not then, not now.

[flyingdutchdevil]

After watching the whole 10 episodes, I'll have to agree Jordan is most probably the best ever. But I still don't like him. Not then, not now.

This is my take too. I think he is the greatest player, and I absolutely credit him with "internationalizing" the game. But I really don't like him. He's a Tar Heel. He defeated my late 90s Jazz twice. And he is a crappy, crappy GM.

But dammit, he can play.

[fuse]

I’m still torn between Jordan as the most competitive human being who ever lived, and best basketball player.

Not that the above are mutually exclusive. Could Jordan have been an MLB major leaguer? A pro golfer? A pro gambler?

You’d think that competitive streak would surface in trying to make the Charlotte Hornets a better basketball team.

[Natty_B]

This was good:

https://slate.com/culture/2020/05/the-last-dance-michael-jordan-bulls-wizards.html

[J4Kop99]

I’m still torn between Jordan as the most competitive human being who ever lived, and best basketball player.

Not that the above are mutually exclusive. Could Jordan have been an MLB major leaguer? A pro golfer? A pro gambler?

You’d think that competitive streak would surface in trying to make the Charlotte Hornets a better basketball team.

Competitiveness and stubbornness sometimes go hand-in-hand. He is the most stubborn human being I have ever come in contact with. I think this is why he is such a poor basketball operations person. That and he is known as one of the cheapest SOB's around. Not a good combo.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

You’d think that competitive streak would surface in trying to make the Charlotte Hornets a better basketball team.

This is a sticking point for me too.

[bundabergdevil]

There is not enough discussion about the real star of the show: whoever said, "way to go, Craig" at the reporter who asked the backstabbing question of Jerry Krause and sent him storming off the dais at the opening of Ep 7.

[mattyoung18]

He is probably the greatest but a documentary done totally in his favor he still is incredibly petty and gives no one credit.He had the perfect coach and sidekick in Pippen that helped Jordan immensely.

[AZLA]

There is not enough discussion about the real star of the show: whoever said, "way to go, Craig" at the reporter who asked the backstabbing question of Jerry Krause and sent him storming off the dais at the opening of Ep 7.

Ha! I laughed so hard at that. What a hilarious background discussion -- like a bunch of boys who just got scolded by dad. "Way to go, Craig..." and mess it up for the rest of us. Ah the press -- geez Greg did you have to ruin it for the rest of us, nitwit?!

[Skydog]

There is not enough discussion about the real star of the show: whoever said, "way to go, Craig" at the reporter who asked the backstabbing question of Jerry Krause and sent him storming off the dais at the opening of Ep 7.
That was my favorite line of the whole documentary. I know...I’m weird.

[bundabergdevil]

That was my favorite line of the whole documentary. I know...I’m weird.

I obviously came here just to post about it!

It’s like someone saying to Craig, “you let the whole team down!”

Just cracked me up.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I finished the series last night.

You can't deny that what the Bulls did was remarkable and made for some interesting television. The nostalgia factor definitely kept me glued to the screen.

MJ's fierce competitive nature was definitely bared to everyone, for better and for worse.

I still come back to how few people who knew him personally seemed to "like" him. Ahmad Rashard? Anyone else?

Steve Kerr actually sounded more MJ friendly than most by the end. The other either blatantly disliked him, tolerated him, saw him as a means to an end, begrudgingly respected him... Not a lot of warmth.

Phil? Did Phil even like Jordan?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Question... Just considered this as I saw his name on another thread. Couldn't you argue that Laettner had a similar competitive streak as Jordan? Clearly he didn't have the same professional level talent, but if you had a ten hour documentary on him, would we see some of the same traits?

[WiJoe]

Question... Just considered this as I saw his name on another thread. Couldn't you argue that Laettner had a similar competitive streak as Jordan? Clearly he didn't have the same professional level talent, but if you had a ten hour documentary on him, would we see some of the same traits?

I doubt Laettner pitched quarters with managers, punched a teammate in the face, played golf and cards for thousands of dollars, or paid baggage handlers to make sure his bags came to the claim area first then bet unsuspecting teammates about the fixed "competition."

Jordan can't touch Laettner's college career with a stack of a million $1 bills.

Was Laettner competitive. Sure. That might be an interesting question for Coach K.

For me? Apples and oranges.

[bundabergdevil]

Question... Just considered this as I saw his name on another thread. Couldn't you argue that Laettner had a similar competitive streak as Jordan? Clearly he didn't have the same professional level talent, but if you had a ten hour documentary on him, would we see some of the same traits?

Stan Van Gundy made this point (https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/05/14/stan-van-gundy-j-j-redick-as-competitive-as-michael-jordan/) but used a different Duke alum: JJ Redick.

I generally agree with SVG's point. I think we've mythologized MJ's competitiveness because he was so successful. We do this plenty of places, attribute some indefinable quality to people who maximized various talents, were lucky, in the right spot at the right time, and had certain personality traits. I'm sure there are plenty of guys that are ultra-competitive in pro- or amateur sports, not to mention bar darts. And, I'm sure there are plenty of guys just as competitive as MJ but he paired all-world talent with that competitiveness.

Now, not all all-world talents are driven and competitive. Kobe famously didn't think Shaq worked hard enough to maximize his talents.

[kAzE]

Growing up, I always rooted against Jordan. It didn't matter who he was playing against. I always respected him, but I just didn't like him. Maybe I'm a weirdo, but this docu-series has definitely changed my opinion of him.

I always knew Jordan was a ruthless competitor and how he treated his teammates and opponents. However, I think this series gives the viewer much more perspective to his internal motivations and how his personality fueled everything he did. I feel like I understand Jordan the person better, and I'm now a fan. The series helped me understand why he did the things he did, and how it helped him (and how much it cost him) to become the G.O.A.T.

For the first time, I genuinely empathized with MJ the person. Seeing him crying on the floor after the 1995 NBA finals really brought home the heavy, heavy toll that his relentless pursuit of greatness had taken on him.

Did he have a lot of issues as a human being, between his neglect of his family (which was completely skipped over in the series), his vicious attitude towards other people, and his gambling? Of course, but these are the type human flaws that we all have. Would I have enjoyed playing with him? Hell no. Not in a million years. But is he the best damn player ever, and is it not even remotely close? Absolutely yes.

[Tripping William]

Pizza Man speaks (and says, in essence, that MJ’s trainer is full of I’m a real wanker for saying this (https://www.si.com/.amp/extra-mustard/2020/05/19/michael-jordan-last-dance-pizza-delivery-craig-fite).

[cato]

Stan Van Gundy made this point (https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/05/14/stan-van-gundy-j-j-redick-as-competitive-as-michael-jordan/) but used a different Duke alum: JJ Redick.

I generally agree with SVG's point. I think we've mythologized MJ's competitiveness because he was so successful. We do this plenty of places, attribute some indefinable quality to people who maximized various talents, were lucky, in the right spot at the right time, and had certain personality traits. I'm sure there are plenty of guys that are ultra-competitive in pro- or amateur sports, not to mention bar darts. And, I'm sure there are plenty of guys just as competitive as MJ but he paired all-world talent with that competitiveness.

Now, not all all-world talents are driven and competitive. Kobe famously didn't think Shaq worked hard enough to maximize his talents.

I mean Shaq didn’t. If Shaq had the relentless need to beat everyone in everything that Jordan, Kobe, whoever had, he either would have been hands down the best basketball player ever or arrested, because Jordan could get away with punching Steve Kerr in the face. Shaq would have killed him.

At any rate, Shaq seems to have travelled the more fulfilling path.

[bundabergdevil]

I mean Shaq didn’t. If Shaq had the relentless need to beat everyone in everything that Jordan, Kobe, whoever had, he either would have been hands down the best basketball player ever or arrested, because Jordan could get away with punching Steve Kerr in the face. Shaq would have killed him.

At any rate, Shaq seems to have travelled the more fulfilling path.

Oh, yeah. Shaq cruised on his overwhelming physical presence, particularly in the final third of his career. I didn't mean to imply Kobe was wrong, he wasn't.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Oh, yeah. Shaq cruised on his overwhelming physical presence, particularly in the final third of his career. I didn't mean to imply Kobe was wrong, he wasn't.

Since we're on this tangent...

I'll admit I watched all episodes of Shaq Life.

If you think The Last Dance was fluff...

[Rich]

I just finished Episode 9 and it occurred to me how many Hall of Famers (and Dream Teamers) were directly deprived rings because of Michael Jordan and those Bulls teams:

Patrick Ewing (HOF and Dream Team)
Clyde Drexler (HOF and Dream Team)
Karl Malone (HOF and Dream Team)
John Stockton (HOF and Dream Team)
Chris Mullin (HOF and Dream Team)
Charles Barkley (HOF and Dream Team)
Reggie Miller (HOF)

Basically, a whole generation of amazing basketball talent did not win a championship in large part because they faced, and lost to, Jordan and the Bulls.

[bundabergdevil]

Since we're on this tangent...

I'll admit I watched all episodes of Shaq Life.

If you think The Last Dance was fluff...

Maybe, but Shaqtin a Fool will one day be aired in MoMA, his send up of Javale McGee his Citizen Kane.

[luvdahops]

I finished the series last night.

You can't deny that what the Bulls did was remarkable and made for some interesting television. The nostalgia factor definitely kept me glued to the screen.

MJ's fierce competitive nature was definitely bared to everyone, for better and for worse.

I still come back to how few people who knew him personally seemed to "like" him. Ahmad Rashard? Anyone else?

Steve Kerr actually sounded more MJ friendly than most by the end. The other either blatantly disliked him, tolerated him, saw him as a means to an end, begrudgingly respected him... Not a lot of warmth.

Phil? Did Phil even like Jordan?

As someone who has lived in Chicago for much of my adult life, and was here throughout the Bulls' championship era, I think you raise some fair questions.

I believe Pippen genuinely likes Michael, and absolutely credits Jordan with helping him reach his peak as a player. But Scottie has always harbored some resentment over not being given his full due by Jordan, who has always treated him more as a "the leader of my supporting cast" than a true sidekick and near peer, even during the second 3-peat, when Pippen was clearly among the league's top players. And that definitely came through in "the Last Dance" and the media coverage surrounding it.

It is my sense that Horace Grant is being at least a bit disingenuous in not owning up to spilling dirt to Sam Smith for "The Jordan Rules", and his departure for Orlando left a bad taste in the mouths of many in the Bulls organization. And he's not helping himself by continuing to try to fan some flames now that the mini-series has wrapped. Suggests that he and Jordan never reconciled. The "straight up I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.es" quote was a highlight though.

Not sure about Phil. I do think he probably liked Jordan on some level, and certainly respected him and made plenty of accommodations for him in his coaching approach. But their personalities are just so different, and MJ clearly never bought into any of Jackson's Zen philosophies. Very interesting to contrast to Phil's relationship with Kobe.

I'd say there were a few other players that seemed pretty friendly with Jordan, namely Scott Burrell, and John Paxson and Cliff Levingston from the early 90s squads. But it's not a long list.

[Rich]

Just finished Episode 10 and remembered I had these tucked away in storage. I worked for the NBA at the time and had the privilege of attending all 6 games of the 1998 Finals (and Game 7 if it was to be).

10783

[Tripping William]

I guess this is as good a place as any to post this sad news. RIP, Jerry Sloan (https://www.nba.com/jazz/news/jazz-statement-passing-jerry-sloan) (former Bull and the long-time Utah Jazz head coach, including during the '97 and '98 Finals).

[Billy Dat]

This topic relates to MJ but then tangents to Duke.

Right after watching the last episode, I began reading Ethan Strauss book about the recent Warriors teams titled, "The Victory Machine".

There is a chapter about sneaker contracts and how import they are in the pecking order of the NBA. Steph Curry left Nike because he was not a priority for them. When he signed with Under Armour, it was a huge deal as it coincided with his rise to MVP-level stardom. His emergence was a dagger to Nike, who'd had him and lost him, and getting their guy KD to the Warriors party was a huge counter punch. The drama has other angles though because KD was not the top dog at Nike, that would be Lebron and, obviously, MJ sits atop that throne, which brings me back to "The Last Dance".

One of MJ's primary legacies is the emergence of sneakers as cultural icons and the tie of a player and a brand rather than a player and his team. This started with Jordan, but Jordan the player was always associated with the Bulls, his coda with the Wizards is largely ignored. Obviously, his association with Nike has persisted now for some 35 years, and it is that association that has made him a billionaire (I know the Hornets are the primary ballast but Nike provided all that original $$$). Lebron represents the evolution of this idea because MJs will always be considered a Bull, but, like Mike, most of Lebron's money comes from Nike. They are his primary employer, not any of the teams he's played for. As his brand has grown so strong, it competes or exceeds the brand of the team he plays for. Lebron's brand is stronger than the Cavs and stronger than the Heat. The Lakers are obviously a huge, iconic brand, but when Lebron signed, whose brand was exerting the stronger influence over the other? Obviously, the two brands burnish each other, but I'd argue that Lebron is currently doing more for the Lakers brand than the Lakers are doing for Lebrons brand.

This brings me to Duke, an enormously powerful brand. So here's the question, is Zion Williamson the first Duke player to ever have a stronger brand than the school, and did he do more for the Duke brand than the Duke brand did for him? I'd argue it's probably a dead heat. Duke obviously had the stronger brand when he started, and gave him the platform to further launch his brand, but by the time he left, it felt like his brand had transcended Duke's by a fair margin - he was WAY bigger than the team from a brand perspective, and that shine sprinkled lots of twinkly fairy dust on to Duke. I'll ignore the headlines he's involved in now with the lawsuits and all that - but I found it really interesting in the context of watching the doc and reading this book to think about who was bigger, Zion or Duke?

[Kdogg]

I just finished Episode 9 and it occurred to me how many Hall of Famers (and Dream Teamers) were directly deprived rings because of Michael Jordan and those Bulls teams:

Patrick Ewing (HOF and Dream Team)
Clyde Drexler (HOF and Dream Team)
Karl Malone (HOF and Dream Team)
John Stockton (HOF and Dream Team)
Chris Mullin (HOF and Dream Team)
Charles Barkley (HOF and Dream Team)
Reggie Miller (HOF)

Basically, a whole generation of amazing basketball talent did not win a championship in large part because they faced, and lost to, Jordan and the Bulls.

If you put Clyde in there you have to include Shaq. Both did win when Jordon was away.

Jordon is probably responsible for the majority of the top ten NBA players without a ring.

[Wahoo2000]

If you put Clyde in there you have to include Shaq. Both did win when Jordon was away.

Jordon is probably responsible for the majority of the top ten NBA players without a ring.

JordOn? I'm gonna assume this is a Duke v Carolina thing and an intentional joke. Because I can't imagine any basketball fan on the planet doesn't know the correct spelling of Michael Jordan's name. Sorry for the flack, Kdogg, and apologies also to anyone else who is perpetually annoyed by the spelling/grammar police type of posts.

[Kdogg]

JordOn? I'm gonna assume this is a Duke v Carolina thing and an intentional joke. Because I can't imagine any basketball fan on the planet doesn't know the correct spelling of Michael Jordan's name. Sorry for the flack, Kdogg, and apologies also to anyone else who is perpetually annoyed by the spelling/grammar police type of posts.

Ha. I was actually cross posting with family in the UK about a soccer player. His name: Jordon Ibe.

[brevity]

If you put Clyde in there you have to include Shaq. Both did win when Jordon was away.

Jordon is probably responsible for the majority of the top ten NBA players without a ring.


JordOn? I'm gonna assume this is a Duke v Carolina thing and an intentional joke. Because I can't imagine any basketball fan on the planet doesn't know the correct spelling of Michael Jordan's name. Sorry for the flack, Kdogg, and apologies also to anyone else who is perpetually annoyed by the spelling/grammar police type of posts.

I believe in proper spelling, even of Carolina people, but here are some valid reasons to spell it "Jordon":

1. He never takes a day off. He's always JordON.
2. Tribute to Mario Puzo: he's the last JorDON of the league.
3. He's not just Batman, but Commissioner Jordon as well. (the late David Stern nods his head)
4. Abbreviates the saying by Basketball Yoda, aka Phil Jackson: "Jump, OR DO Not. There is no triangle."
5. It's "Jordon" like "cordon", as in "The filmmakers of The Last Dance jordoned off the editing room so that Michael could enter but Scottie could not."

[Rich]

If you put Clyde in there you have to include Shaq. Both did win when Jordon was away.

Jordon is probably responsible for the majority of the top ten NBA players without a ring.

My bad - I forgot that Drexler won an NBA championship with Houston in 1995.

I originally had Gary Payton on there too, until I realized he won one with the Heat in 2006.

[bundabergdevil]

Finally finished the 10th episode.

1. Man, do we need a modern Rodman in sports. Someone who peaces out to party with Hulk Hogan at WWE IN BETWEEN games 3 and 4 of the Finals. Closest comparison in recent years I can think of is Cowboys fans getting pissed that Tony Romo went to Cabo w/ Jessica Simpson before the play-offs.

2. I'm still not clear what Bulls management was thinking/doing blowing up the team. Then again, the Bulls are worth 200x more than when JR bought them so maybe I'm the one who isn't thinking straight.

[duke96]

It would appear the light is shining on one of Jordan’s lies from The Last Dance (about whether he specifically blackballed Isaiah Thomas from the Dream Team). Interesting that ESPN played the story, and will be interesting to see if it gets more attention.

Link here: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29223706/michael-jordan-rod-thorn-play-isiah-thomas-dream-team

[Steven43]

It would appear the light is shining on one of Jordan’s lies from The Last Dance (about whether he specifically blackballed Isaiah Thomas from the Dream Team). Interesting that ESPN played the story, and will be interesting to see if it gets more attention.

Link here: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29223706/michael-jordan-rod-thorn-play-isiah-thomas-dream-team

I don’t know that it really matters one way or the other. And I don’t feel the slightest bit bad for Isaiah Thomas that he was not on that team. He’s done many disrespectful, childish, and arrogant things over the years and I don’t care for him. Darn good basketball player, but apparently not well-liked by his peers. I don’t blame any of them for not wanting him on that team.

[jv001]

I don’t know that it really matters one way or the other. And I don’t feel the slightest bit bad for Isaiah Thomas that he was not on that team. He’s done many disrespectful, childish, and arrogant things over the years and I don’t care for him. Darn good basketball player, but apparently not well-liked by his peers. I don’t blame any of them for not wanting him on that team.

But Steven, those same qualities or things could be given to mj but I could see where the players on the Dream Team would want mj over Isiah. Then again, mj is a tarcheat. :cool:

GoDuke!

[mattyoung18]

I just finished Episode 9 and it occurred to me how many Hall of Famers (and Dream Teamers) were directly deprived rings because of Michael Jordan and those Bulls teams:

Patrick Ewing (HOF and Dream Team)
Clyde Drexler (HOF and Dream Team)
Karl Malone (HOF and Dream Team)
John Stockton (HOF and Dream Team)
Chris Mullin (HOF and Dream Team)
Charles Barkley (HOF and Dream Team)
Reggie Miller (HOF)

Basically, a whole generation of amazing basketball talent did not win a championship in large part because they faced, and lost to, Jordan and the Bulls.
Those players didnt have Phil Jackson, Scottie Pippen an always open Paxon or Kerr ,Jordan getting fouls calls if hes barely touched and Home court advantage.Quite a few advantages for dem bulls.

[Steven43]

Those players didnt have Phil Jackson, Scottie Pippen an always open Paxon or Kerr ,Jordan getting fouls calls if hes barely touched and Home court advantage.Quite a few advantages for dem bulls.
I could be misinterpreting, but it seems you’re not a Michael Jordan fan. Just a hunch.