We Needed the Loss

[TwoDukeTattoos]

I wanted Duke to win as many games in the ACC Tourney as possible. But more importantly than that, however, this young, not particulary deep Duke team needs to be well-rested for the NCAAs. While the loss tonight is tough to watch, I look forward to the Big Dance next week.

If McRoberts continues to finally become a true center as he did tonight, and Marty continues to assert himself as he did tonight, and then you throw a surging Henderson into the mix, there is a possibility we could make a little noise in the Big One.

GO DUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[grossbus]

hopefully, marty gets some minutes now.

[RelativeWays]

My qustion is why McBob didn't play that way in the 1st half? A good way to halt Costner and McCauley from scoring would have been to get them in foul trouble. State might be a little scary next year.

[imagepro]

Needeed the loss? Are you kidding? Please say yes. There is a thing called "confidence", or lack thereof!

[Dukefan4Life]

No we did not need this lost! we are a team that needed that and more wins baldy for confidence! we look so eratic out there! we just dont seem to be gelling at all! I hope we can win a few games in the Ncaa but we have to play a hello of alot better than we did tonight!

[A-Tex Devil]

I'll respectfully disagree. This team ain't winning the NCAA's. But we had every opportunity to win as many as 3 games in this tourney. And once in the championship, who knows?

I just want to see these guys win as many as possible. Losing tonight makes next week's matchup tougher. Man this is frustrating.

I don't care about RPI. I don't know how we aren't a bubble team considering we've lost 7 of 10 and were .500 in our conference and lost the first game to a mediocre (and that's kind) team in our conference.

We needed this win.

[duke24/7]

I don't think we needed this loss, I definitley think a lot of positives came from it. Marty stepped up, Josh finally dominated in OT, and Hendo and all the other guys will be even hungrier and fresher next week.

[77devil]

I wanted Duke to win as many games in the ACC Tourney as possible. But more importantly than that, however, this young, not particulary deep Duke team needs to be well-rested for the NCAAs. While the loss tonight is tough to watch, I look forward to the Big Dance next week.


After the last two games, this team needed to come out on fire and try to make a statement.

[thomas]

We needed a loss to wake up this team? Wow.

I have posted here about keeping the faith, letting our team learning and becoming a 'fist', but now....I just don't know. i think I have been stupid.

I fear we have one more game, and our season is over. I wish i were wrong.

[A-Tex Devil]

i think the team is not the problem..its coach k right now he is killin us.. he doesn't coach he just sits on his ***

Dude, no. I'm no K apologist and have complained before, but he's tried everything with this team. He's tried every combo he can. I think he's doing an admirable job.

I think seeing how Josh played in OT and comparing it with the rest of the game can give you some good insight as to what this team's problems are. And it rests in between out young guys' ears.

[Troublemaker]

That's terrible. We didn't really have a chance in either tourney this year, but the opportunity to become conference champs should never be taken lightly.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

this young, not particulary deep Duke team needs to be well-rested for the NCAAs.


These young guys have all summer to "rest". Now they need to play hard every play.

Aargh! Bring on selection Sunday and whatever it brings.

[BlueDevilBaby]

No Duke loss is a good loss. Aaaargh! Frustrating. Great game by Marty. DN was a man. Wish Josh was as aggressive in first half as he was in second half and OT. NCAA will be tough. Looking forward to next year. Please stay Josh!

[evrdukie]

I've watched Duke basketball for a long time, but don't pretend to the expertise a lot of the posters obviously possess. What I'm having trouble understanding this year is this: Most of Duke's starters were very highly touted high school players, big time college prospects by pretty much any standard. And yet this team is utterly mediocre and has regularly lost to teams that, on paper at least, shouldn't even be competitive with Duke. It's disappointing and I'm wondering if anybody can furnish a plausible explanation.

[rsvman]

I don't know if this is plausible or not, but I get the feeling that going down the stretch, when the game is tight, the team does not expect to win. I don't think they expect to lose, exactly, but they don't expect to win.

I was watching Wright State against Butler a couple of nights ago and I saw something I really wish I could see in any of our players. Wright State was down one with about a minute and small change to go. Butler misses a shot, Wright State gets the rebound, and they pass it to their point guard. The camera goes to a close-up shot of his face as he brings the ball upcourt in a really tough, tight situation. The guy has a smile; nay, a smirk on his face. It says a lot. It very clearly communicates this: "You shouldn't have missed that shot. Because now we have the ball, and we're going to score." Sure enough, within about 15 seconds, the same guy buried a tough 3-pointer over a solid defensive outstretched arm. There was no question in my mind that the shot was going to fall. More importantly, there was no question in the mind of the guy who shot it. He knew he was going to make the shot.

I haven't seen that in anybody on this team consistently. They play more like they are saying, "I sure hope I don't mess up, 'cause then we'll lose this game."

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the difference between the Wright State guard and our guys is precisely an attitudinal one.

[Cameron]

I wouldn't exactly say we needed this loss. I don't know about you, but I want to end the season on top as champions every season in the ACC. I can't stand watching someone else moving on, taking our shot at winning the crown along with them. This loss tonight hurt me as bad as any loss. I wanted this win tonight so bad I could taste it (pardon the cliche, but it is the truth).

This is going to be a long weekend...

[dukelifer]

I've watched Duke basketball for a long time, but don't pretend to the expertise a lot of the posters obviously possess. What I'm having trouble understanding this year is this: Most of Duke's starters were very highly touted high school players, big time college prospects by pretty much any standard. And yet this team is utterly mediocre and has regularly lost to teams that, on paper at least, shouldn't even be competitive with Duke. It's disappointing and I'm wondering if anybody can furnish a plausible explanation.

We lost to twice Maryland who was Hot, twice UNC who is among the best in the country, once to Fla State on a missed tap who has one of the best players in the country, once to Va in overtime (Va who is co-ACC champsion), once to Va Tech who beat UNC twice, and once to Ga Tech who is a dangerous team. How is this losing to teams that are not competitive? These are ALL NCAA tourney teams. State was the only loss to a mediocre team. Does that explain it?

[Houston]

I've watched Duke basketball for a long time, but don't pretend to the expertise a lot of the posters obviously possess. What I'm having trouble understanding this year is this: Most of Duke's starters were very highly touted high school players, big time college prospects by pretty much any standard. And yet this team is utterly mediocre and has regularly lost to teams that, on paper at least, shouldn't even be competitive with Duke. It's disappointing and I'm wondering if anybody can furnish a plausible explanation.


The answer is some of the recruits were/are overrated. A high school player's stauts is elevated once Duke calls and expectations are raised. I also don't think the staff has made the best use of the players given the offense Coach K employs. The motion offense needs penetration to run effectively. Gerald and Marty should have been given more minutes earlier in the season (once healthy). Their defense could not have been that bad to keep them on the bench.

What is most disappointing is that we are struggling against/losing to teams who do not have a player on the roster we recruited.

[evrdukie]

Houston, your last sentence pretty much sums up my frustration. After all the tortured explanations you see on these boards, the facts are still there. Duke took a lot of whippings this year--and not just from the likes of UNC. The unhappy fact is that virtually every game I watched seemed like one Duke could lose, even when they were fifteen or twenty points ahead. Everything about this team says mediocrity and its hard to understand why it turned out that way.

[GMR]

Well, it was a disappointing night for Duke. The interior defense was very poor. NC State scored in the paint at will. The defense has fallen off in the last several games..does anyone have an answer for why that is happening? The intensity doesn't seem to be as strong as it was earlier in the year.

I thought Nelson had a pretty good game tonight. Pocious was superb on offense, although he started the night with a couple of turnovers. I thought he should have gotten more minutes in the second half. He sat out nearly the entire first half of the second half, after an uplifting performance in the first. I didn't see any major defensive problems with his play, at least no more than anyone else on the team. I'm not sure he would have played much if at all in the second half had the Devils not experienced foul trouble in the second half. I'd venture a guess that he will not see nearly as much time when GH returns next week.

Paulus played well offensively, but Atsur went ballistic in the second half. How can a guy have zero points in the first half, and over twenty in the second? I know others tried guarding him, and were not successful either.

Scheyer had a good first half, but went dry in the second. Every shot he took in the second half was short, which begs the question about being tired?

Josh was a no-show offensively in the first half, but came alive in the second. Speaking of Josh, he does about everything right handed except shoot a basketball. He shoots three pointers and free throws with his left hand, but have you noticed that nearly all of his shots 5' and closer to the basket are shot right handed instead of left...does anyone know why this is?

Overall, I thought the offense was reasonably effective tonight...it was the defense, especially in the paint, that spoiled the evening.

GMR

[TwoDukeTattoos]

I began this thread and once I posted it, I realized that I need to express more clearly what it was I was trying to say. Rather than title it "We Needed the Loss", I should have said, "The Rest May Do Us Well". In other words, I wanted to see Duke win as badly as anyone. I didn't sit down the entire second half as I watched on my TV. But, now that they have lost, I was trying to imply some optimism by saying, "hey, I wanted to see some rhythm established during the ACC Tourney and see some games won, but since that didn't happen, let's be excited that Duke will be well-rested and fresh going into the Big Dance". And quite honestly, freshness is something we may need more than anything in the NCAAs.

Often teams reach a new level of fatigue during conference Tourneys, particulary teams that run only a 6-7 man rotation, such as Duke's. I have enjoyed Duke's ACC Tourney success as much as anyone, but I often wonder if we'd be fresher if we hadn't made it to each Title game.

This Duke team has caused us to step away from the norm and gain new perspectives, and our latest is this: Let's see if a fresh Duke team (which is different than any other Duke team in the past 8 years) can make a little noise in the NCAAs.

[RelativeWays]

Honestly, this team is frustrating because it DOES have talent, but it lacks in consistency. Normally its great for a team to have five players with a balanced scoring attack (Nelson, McRoberts, Paulus, Sheyer, Henderson) but if any of the five have an off night then that spells doom. I hope in the offseason, that Thomas and Zoubek hit the weights and work on their mechanics and Marty keeps his confidence to be a go to guy off the bench.

[throatybeard]

One man's "well-rested" is another man's "rusty."

I don't see how we needed a wake-up call. We've had 9 others already.

[Cavlaw]

I don't think I will ever buy into the "needed a loss" or "will be more rested for the NCAAs" school of thought. I always want to win the ACCT.

Also, I would so much rather win the ACCT than be a Sweet 16 team. (NC or FF is, perhaps, a different story)

[devildownunder]

I'll respectfully disagree. This team ain't winning the NCAA's. But we had every opportunity to win as many as 3 games in this tourney. And once in the championship, who knows?

I just want to see these guys win as many as possible. Losing tonight makes next week's matchup tougher. Man this is frustrating.

I don't care about RPI. I don't know how we aren't a bubble team considering we've lost 7 of 10 and were .500 in our conference and lost the first game to a mediocre (and that's kind) team in our conference.

We needed this win.

We are 4-6 in our last 10, not 3-7.

As for the NCAAs, there is the road wins factor. If the committee looks at our resume carefully it will see that our stellar nonconference record was compiled entirely outside of opposing teams' home buildings. That won't help our seeding either. But still, we'll be in the tourney and we deserve to be. Don't know how some folks thought we would get a 2 or a 3 though. Try an 8 or a 9.

[bigdog]

If Duke gets a bad match-up in the first round, they will be out in the first round. The sweet 16 would be a huge accomplishment for this team, but I don't see it happening at all. I'm surprised that they are not considered a bubble team. Maybe they will be now.

[mgtr]

There may such a thing as a "good" loss, but I haven't seen one this year. I have, however, seen losses that Duke deserved, and last night was one. In an earlier game the color guy referred to one team (Maryland, I think) as asleep on defense. I think that sums up much of the Duke game, certainly the last 10 minutes or so.
The time off may do the Duke team some good, as Coach K can work on team defense. However, I don't see any players getting touch by a "magic twanger" (plunk your magic twanger, froggy). McRoberts is not turning into Sheldon Williams, and Scheyer is not turning into JJ Redick. While GH can make a real contribution, which we need, one game does not make him Grant Hill.
Duke's only hope is to play team basketball. We started out doing that this season, but have gotten away from it. I don't know why, and I don't know how to fix it, given the players we have. Thankfully, Coach K is a genius with regard to basketball.

[Cameron]

If Duke gets a bad match-up in the first round

If we are an 8 seed and are matched up with, say, a Michigan State or a Syracuse, we will be in big trouble. And I don't know how I would live with myself over the summer if we lose in the First Round. It would be hell, especially during the last three weeks of the tournament:(

If we do draw a dangerous First Round matchup as an 8 seed, which is something I think the NCAA Selection Committee would love to do considering if we won it would mean a nationally televised Duke matchup with a one seed, then I will not be sleeping until that Thursday or Friday game. The nerves in my household will be palpable.

[hurleyfor3]

Someone give me some perspective here; what were our top five "needed" losses in the K era? Or even some games we won that we "needed" to lose instead.

[devildownunder]

Someone give me some perspective here; what were our top five "needed" losses in the K era? Or even some games we won that we "needed" to lose instead.

IMO.

103-73.

[VaDukie]

We don't win in it all in 2001 without the home loss to MD IMO. Losing the final home game and going without Boozer gave our guys a killer instinct for the last 10 games.

[JBDuke]

We don't win in it all in 2001 without the home loss to MD IMO. Losing the final home game and going without Boozer gave our guys a killer instinct for the last 10 games.

I would argue, though, that it was the loss of Boozer, and K's subsequent adjustment to the rotation, that was the key, not the actual loss to Maryland. If Boozer goes down, but we still win that game, I think K makes the same adjustment and we win 6.

However, IMO, the 1991 team used the motivation from the humiliating loss to Carolina in the ACC Tourney final to get them to the Final Four. After that, it was the loss to UNLV from the previous year that helped them overcome the Rebs in the semi-finals.

[Cameron]

I would argue, though, that it was the loss of Boozer, and K's subsequent adjustment to the rotation, that was the key, not the actual loss to Maryland.

Exactly. K's lineup shift and brilliant strategy for the Carolina game, a game we were expected to get dropped hard in without Boozer, were the keys to our eventually blowing through the ACC Tournament in Georgia and then winning 6 games in the Big Dance. That win at UNC without Boozer showed our team they were capable of winning it all in April, and they played with a fire we may never see in a Duke team again for the remaining four weeks. It was so special to watch. What a year.

[DukieUGA]

lots of people are wondering why this team has so many supposedly talented players, yet so often gets outplayed by "inferior" talent. Others have pointed it out as well, and after watching the State game i'm convinced as well, that this team doesn't have the camraderie or the desire to play together like past teams. Part of it is a vaccuum of leadership, but i think that another part of it is probably personality conflicts among players, which probably has a feedback looop to leadership. So much focus was thrown on Josh that he wasn't really ready for and would not have received with a more veteran roster. This team hasn't gelled and has obvious communication problems. The Fr. only have one Jr. to look up to and he doesn't seem to have the leadership knack of a a Nate James or Battier. The So. class is not prepared to take on leadership roles but they have had to, and alot of their weak points are being exposed b/c there is no cover for them. Lots of those issues will get smoother next year simply b/c everyone will be older and will have been through enough to guide the incoming Fr. class much better. Unless Josh is able to completely overhaul his approach to his teammates during games, i'm not sure that him returning for next year will improve the team chemistry issues. An off-season of hard work reflection and maturation might do the trick, but as of now, Josh's on-court attitude is a negative influence on this team.

[hurleyfor3]

How was 103-73 a "needed" loss when winning it would have given us a title, and made Unlv's 1991 season less historically relevant? Assuming a scenario in which it could have been won, of course. "Losing by 30 was better than losing by 10" isn't an argument; I mean losing versus winning.

I don't think any particular motivation arose from the '91 ACC final. I don't want to say K tanked that game, but it definitely seemed like a low priority to win. (I attended that tournament and lived in Charlotte.)

I'll grant the Maryland/Boozer loss in 2001.

[imagepro]

And do NOT forget the importance of Boozers' injury. It gave Casey Sanders a chance to get comfortable. Without him we don't win it. Not saying he was the vital component, he was not. But I don't think we win without his play in the NCAAs....

[devildownunder]

How was 103-73 a "needed" loss when winning it would have given us a title, and made Unlv's 1991 season less historically relevant? Assuming a scenario in which it could have been won, of course. "Losing by 30 was better than losing by 10" isn't an argument; I mean losing versus winning.

I don't think any particular motivation arose from the '91 ACC final. I don't want to say K tanked that game, but it definitely seemed like a low priority to win. (I attended that tournament and lived in Charlotte.)

I'll grant the Maryland/Boozer loss in 2001.


Getting annihilated by UNLV made that group of players come back tougher. It was a lesson and they learned it well, picking up the last piece the team and the program needed to finally win that first national championship.