MBB: Duke 88, NC State 69 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[Native]

Do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and savior, Justin Robinson?

[jjredickrules]

Just your run-of-the-mill 19 pt victory.

I’m glad we don’t overreact to things here and all keep our cool.

[bluenorth]

Zone? JRob playing a lot and White not? A more animated Coach K? Can't argue with tonight's result.

[proelitedota]

19 point win over the team that whopped Duke by 22.

Not too shabby.

[dukelifer]

Posted this earlier today

"Would sneaking in Zion into a Mike Buckmire jersey be too out of the box? I think teams have figured Duke out and it will come down to fewer mistakes that Duke can control and someone playing above their age. I would like to see Stanley become that guy. He is the most athletic player Duke has and he needs to get his motor going. I am not exactly sure why he has been so up and down of late. Last 5 games 9, 4, 21,14, 4. Duke needs 14 pt Stanley and not 4 point Stanley. He has also been clutch in some close games. I think he is the key."

I think Stanley needs to get a dunk to get going - and boy was he big tonight. Stanley and Robinson were huge. Nice win.

[chrishoke]

Duke was in a zone in the 2nd half.

[rsvman]

Wake loss stings the most right now. Coulda woulda shoulda been tied for best record in the ACC despite being destroyed at State and losing to Virginia. Dang!

Good second half. The zone saved us. Stanley was impressive.

[arnie]

Posted this earlier today

"Would sneaking in Zion into a Mike Buckmire jersey be too out of the box? I think teams have figured Duke out and it will come down to fewer mistakes that Duke can control and someone playing above their age. I would like to see Stanley become that guy. He is the most athletic player Duke has and he needs to get his motor going. I am not exactly sure why he has been so up and down of late. Last 5 games 9, 4, 21,14, 4. Duke needs 14 pt Stanley and not 4 point Stanley. He has also been clutch in some close games. I think he is the key."

I think Stanley needs to get a dunk to get going - and boy was he big tonight. Stanley and Robinson were huge. Nice win.

And Goldwire solid.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

And breeaaaathe... that’s more like it. Hope we can carry that second half intensity through to the next several weeks. Onward!

[heyman25]

Justin can give us scores and finishes.Very encoraging win. Very positive 2nd half. Need to bring this for the rest of this season.Carolina will still be a challenge for this inconsistent team.

[rsvman]

Duke was in a zone in the 2nd half.

I see what you did there.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

duke was in a zone in the 2nd half.

iswydt!

[jv001]

MOTM= ZONE!!!!

GoDuke!

[UrinalCake]

Nice to see “good Duke” return in the second half. Not sure if the zone will become a permanent fixture or simply a means to mix things up and give our guys a boost. Against better shooting teams it may be ineffective. But it took away the dribble penetration and the mismatches while keeping our bigs close to the basket, so it worked perfectly and keyed the turnaround. Got back to forcing live ball turnovers like we were doing earlier in the season, which was needed to spark our offense.

I’d imagine we’ll stick with the zone against the CHeats, who are a terrible shooting team. For now, a big sigh of relief to get a comfortable win. Free throw shooting and free throw defense continue to excel. Our whole bench played great, Jones and Carey were good but not their best so we needed it.

[heyman25]

Zone? JRob playing a lot and White not? A more animated Coach K? Can't argue with tonight's result.
I like Jack ,but he does not finish plays and Justin does.
Alex and Joey need to spend about the next 5 days taking extra shots at Cameron. Matthew as well.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

No Jack. No Joey. No Alex. No problem. Thanks J-Rob!

[proelitedota]

Wake loss stings the most right now. Coulda woulda shoulda been tied for best record in the ACC despite being destroyed at State and losing to Virginia. Dang!


Wake loss was a completely robbery. We win that game comfortably if Wake had normal home-cooking.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I’m glad our real team escaped whatever prison they were in and got
to the game with 25 minutes to play!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Do we even need a MOTM this game?

[goduke03861]

The zone allowed the team to get in transition off long misses and blocked shots. Think it should feature moving forward. Will allow for the dropoff in turnovers that we were getting in the beginning of the season.

[jv001]

And Goldwire solid.

I agree. That's the best I've seen Goldwire handle the ball. He was so confident with his drives and he finished his shot. I hope it's just not a case of playing in front of the Crazies. GoDuke!

[jwillfan]

Do we even need a MOTM this game?
I'm guessing yes. I think it's Goldwire hands down, but many crowing about Robinson

[CameronDuke]

Now THAT is more like it!

23-27 from the line and out rebounded State 46-27.

6 blocks, 8 steals, 14 assists. Much better showing tonight. The zone stalled State’s offense and Justin Robinson had a great game off the bench. 6 players in double figures including 3 off the bench (Robinson, Moore, Goldwire).

Duke attacked the rim in waves in transition. It appeared free throw shooting, rebounding, and attacking the rim in transition were points of emphasis tonight.

24-6, 14-5. Sure the Wake loss was frustrating and Duke could have beaten UVa if a few plays at the end went differently but Duke is still right there heading into the last game of the regular season then the postseason.

Let’s Go Duke! 9F!

[Music man55]

That's more like it.Good contributions from A lot of other guys, especially JRob,JGold,Cassius and Wendell.Never know with this team who will play, who will step up, and who will not get in. I guess the GOAT knows what he's doing. The 2/3 zone was a life saver. Now let's go take down the cheats sat.nite!

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Wow. K with some very direct words about fans getting on the players after the last few losses. He was NOT happy about the criticism and negativity. Rightly so.

[weezie]

Yeah. He's saying knock it off social media critics.

He also led the team off the floor after game high fiving the Crazies

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Yeah. He's saying knock it off social media critics

Or... Message board posters.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

Still need to get to the bottom of this. Who is this cameraman and what’s up with the hat? He’s been in CIS all season.

10320

[snewman92]

Or... Message board posters.

Amen! Lots of great analysis on the board, but also risible junk like "This team is trash."

[House G]

We just look better in a zone. Carey doesn’t need to be trying to guard a quick guard out at the 3 point line. State settled for a lot of 10 ft jump shots instead of the layups against our man D. And, since we don’t know how to box out, we may be a better rebounding team when playing zone.

[Furniture]

Excruciating first half. Couldn’t watch the second half. I’ll watch later. Great win!

[dukelifer]

Just a crazy season. A full week to get rested and a little confidence to take on UNC. A much needed big win. Confidence is a fragile thing.

[dukelifer]

Excruciating first half. Couldn’t watch the second half. I’ll watch later. Great win!

You will enjoy the second half and one very spectacular play in particular. You will know it when you see it.

[Saratoga2]

The Duke zone changed the complexion of the game and it may have been the primary reason Duke won. We also got much more aggressive in the second half with Cassius coming alive.

The lineup used tonight for the entire second half was Stanley, Moore, Goldwire, Jones and Carey with a good dose of Robinson thrown in and a little DeLauier. I don't believe Hurt got in and O'Connell, Baker and White never made the floor. Coach K certainly changed the lineup and the game plan, particularly in the second half, and it worked very well.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

We just look better in a zone. Carey doesn’t need to be trying to guard a quick guard out at the 3 point line. State settled for a lot of 10 ft jump shots instead of the layups against our man D. And, since we don’t know how to box out, we may be a better rebounding team when playing zone.
Didn’t K institute the zone D very late in the 2015 season?

[HH89]

Had flashbacks to George Ackles with us giving Hellems all those open looks from the free throw line! Worked out well both times! Gotta hand it to Coach K tonight.

[ncexnyc]

Just a crazy season. A full week to get rested and a little confidence to take on UNC. A much needed big win. Confidence is a fragile thing.
Yes, confidence is a fragile thing, unfortunately for this team so is Big Mo.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

The Duke zone changed the complexion of the game and it may have been the primary reason Duke won. We also got much more aggressive in the second half with Cassius coming alive.

The lineup used tonight for the entire second half was Stanley, Moore, Goldwire, Jones and Carey with a good dose of Robinson thrown in and a little DeLauier. I don't believe Hurt got in and O'Connell, Baker and White never made the floor. Coach K certainly changed the lineup and the game plan, particularly in the second half, and it worked very well.

Zone was the key....Duke played better on both ends instantly upon going to it.

[Duke79UNLV77]

You will enjoy the second half and one very spectacular play in particular. You will know it when you see it.

Actually, you’ll think you’ve already seen it, but there will be an even more spectacular play coming!

[NYBri]

Give me a 9! Give me an F!

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Actually, you’ll think you’ve already seen it, but there will be an even more spectacular play coming!

True....when you think youv'e seen it...you have not. When you see it, you'll KNOW it.

[MrPoon]

J Rob was fantastic as was Goldwire but don’t sleep on Stanley as key to this game.
With Tre, Vernon and Moore are all key but Stanley is there Mojo. When he plays with confidence and energy they feel different as an entire team.
Its not just the dunks, its the drives, the rebounding. Of course was fantastic and unexpected but Stanley is the lightning rod that really changes this team.

I also think some of the changes in this line up were K admitting he didn’t get UVa right. He’s insanely good of course but he is always trying to improve. He was trying to mix up things in a way he didn’t in Virginia. Good for him. Never resting.

[MrPoon]

I do know I was hoping they would find a classy, not running up the score way to win by 23.....

[jv001]

6 players in double figures and solid all around play(especially 2nd half).

Goldwire= 11 points, 5 assists, 2 turnovers, 2 steals and 6 rebounds
J-Rob= 10 points, 6 rebounds(4 offensive), 1 assist, 1 block.
Moore= 10 points, 6 rebounds, 1 assist, 2 turnovers
Stanley= 18 points, 7 rebounds(4 offensive) 1 assist, 2 blocks
Carey= 17 points, 7 rebounds, 1 steal, 2 blocks.
Tre= 15 points, 4 assists, 3 turnovers, 4 steals, 3 rebounds

Team: 48% FG, 33% on 3s, 85% FTs, 46 rebounds, 16 offensive boards, 14 assists, 12 turnovers, 5 steals and 6 blocks.

A good game from the good guys. Now some time before the cheats come to town.
9F

GoDuke!

[uh_no]

Still need to get to the bottom of this. Who is this cameraman and what’s up with the hat? He’s been in CIS all season.

10320

all i know it's he is all about celebration and presumed that I'd never heard of cool and the gang. man was sorely mistaken.

[fuse]

Tale of two halves? I missed the first, seems like Duke struggled before maybe the ten minute mark in the second half?

[moonpie23]

K ripping fans talking about players....said if they wanted to talk junk about his coaching, that was fine...."they can come into cameron and look in the rafters"

he was angry...

[CDu]

So before the game I talked about our struggles with the high ball screen, with big men getting stuck on the perimeter, and fouling. In hindsight, the solution was staring us in the face: the zone. Good call by Coach K to make that switch, and good execution by the players. Also, great to see so many guys step up. Hopefully they can build off it. It will be interesting to see if we go to the zone more often moving forward, or if this was a one-off. But man did they respond.

[Reddevil]

After watching the team struggle defensively for at least the last 3 years, I am convinced that freshman cannot defend consistently at a high level. In this OAD era zone should be used almost exclusively. Maybe some surprise M2M occasionally. Let the freshman studs roll on offense and play zone on the other end. It prevents getting torched on PNR's and getting stuck on switching mismatches. It also keeps bigs under the basket where they belong.

[freshmanjs]

After watching the team struggle defensively for at least the last 3 years, I am convinced that freshman cannot defend consistently at a high level. In this OAD era zone should be used almost exclusively. Maybe some surprise M2M occasionally. Let the freshman studs roll on offense and play zone on the other end. It prevents getting torched on PNR's and getting stuck on switching mismatches. It also keeps bigs under the basket where they belong.

Kentucky does it. They’ve played good m2m with freshman throughout the calipari era (although this year not a freshman oriented team).

[gofurman]

We just look better in a zone. Carey doesn’t need to be trying to guard a quick guard out at the 3 point line. State settled for a lot of 10 ft jump shots instead of the layups against our man D. And, since we don’t know how to box out, we may be a better rebounding team when playing zone.

What a difference in halves. Let’s zone in the tourney please

[duke2x]

I do know I was hoping they would find a classy, not running up the score way to win by 23....

41 point swing (where have I heard that before?) on short rest. I'll take it. We've got to find a way to start faster.

[uh_no]

What a difference in halves. Let’s zone in the tourney please

teams will prepare for it now.

It may be the kind of thing where once the element of surprise is lost, you need a good amount of time to do it well against teams that are prepared for it. Even in 2015 when we famously switched to zone against louisville, we played very little in the actual run to the championship.

[Scorp4me]

My only problem is that sometimes Coach goes away from what is working. Deep rotation, let's shorten the bench. Baker doing well, let's keep him on the bench. Robinson had a great game, no chance the next. Zone works, gotta get back to that man to man. I don't know if it's just not believing what he sees, afraid it's a flash in the pan, trying to improve and going down the wrong path, convinced the change is a bandaid and we need to get back to what he things it should be...but I hope he looks at all the positives from this season and isn't afraid to use any of it. This team doesn't have the overwhelming talent that last year had, but it has a lot more options. Might as well take advantage of them all!

[dukelifer]

My only problem is that sometimes Coach goes away from what is working. Deep rotation, let's shorten the bench. Baker doing well, let's keep him on the bench. Robinson had a great game, no chance the next. Zone works, gotta get back to that man to man. I don't know if it's just not believing what he sees, afraid it's a flash in the pan, trying to improve and going down the wrong path, convinced the change is a bandaid and we need to get back to what he things it should be...but I hope he looks at all the positives from this season and isn't afraid to use any of it. This team doesn't have the overwhelming talent that last year had, but it has a lot more options. Might as well take advantage of them all!

K used 9 players- but certain combinations were working better than others. He made a call and it worked. The team has been in every game except one and they avenged that loss tonight. This is a limited team but certainly one that could get hot. They need Stanley to play at a high level and they have enough around the three to have a chance- but they cannot be a two player team on O.

[Saratoga2]

My only problem is that sometimes Coach goes away from what is working. Deep rotation, let's shorten the bench. Baker doing well, let's keep him on the bench. Robinson had a great game, no chance the next. Zone works, gotta get back to that man to man. I don't know if it's just not believing what he sees, afraid it's a flash in the pan, trying to improve and going down the wrong path, convinced the change is a bandaid and we need to get back to what he things it should be...but I hope he looks at all the positives from this season and isn't afraid to use any of it. This team doesn't have the overwhelming talent that last year had, but it has a lot more options. Might as well take advantage of them all!

UNC is a running team that uses its bench. Can we use a short rotation against that approach effectively? It certainly worked tonight so shouldn't be abandoned but maybe a sigghtlye xpanded lineup to counter the UNC approach?

[Troublemaker]

Coach K gave us hope back tonight and should be commended for continuing to tinker.

Let's continue to see where zone and JRob can lead us. Maybe the zone gets figured out but we weren't going to accomplish anything doing what we had been doing, anyway.

Playing a stretch-5 in JRob makes the defensive quartet of Tre-JGold-Cassius-Wendell more viable offensively since those four range from poor to average in shooting ability.

We don't really have the height that you usually associate with zone defense (at least using the players we used tonight), but their quickness and activity can hopefully make up for it.

[heyman25]

K used 9 players- but certain combinations were working better than others. He made a call and it worked. The team has been in every game except one and they avenged that loss tonight. This is a limited team but certainly one that could get hot. They need Stanley to play at a high level and they have enough around the three to have a chance- but they cannot be a two player team on O.

Great post. Like to see this team jell and yes they are young. However first day of practice I believe was October 15. The young team needs to play as a team. Tired of the young excuse.Listen to what the Coaches say and execute them.
Go to practice after practice. It is March.

[UrinalCake]

teams will prepare for it now. It may be the kind of thing where once the element of surprise is lost, you need a good amount of time to do it well against teams that are prepared for it.

Yep, we saw this two seasons ago with Carter and Bagley. Made the switch about halfway through the conference season, but then by the end of the season opponents had figured it out.

I like mixing in the zone but also think it will be very matchup-dependent. NCSU and UNC-CHeat are good candidates because they shoot poorly - State had several wide open threes in the second half that they missed. Of course they were getting those when we were playing man too, so maybe there’s no difference. Against a team like Notre Dame or VT we’d be playing M2M full time.

[dukelifer]

Coach K gave us hope back tonight and should be commended for continuing to tinker.

Let's continue to see where zone and JRob can lead us. Maybe the zone gets figured out but we weren't going to accomplish anything doing what we had been doing, anyway.

Playing a stretch-5 in JRob makes the defensive quartet of Tre-JGold-Cassius-Wendell more viable offensively since those four range from poor to average in shooting ability.

We don't really have the height that you usually associate with zone defense (at least using the players we used tonight), but their quickness and activity can hopefully make up for it.

JRob is certainly not lost out there and makes good decisions. He has practiced against a lot of great players. I am sure most every players he sees out there are not in Bagley's, Carters', Zion's or even Bolden's league. Hey it is working- he is responding- I say let's keep it going.

[bullettoothtony]

K ripping fans talking about players...said if they wanted to talk junk about his coaching, that was fine..."they can come into cameron and look in the rafters"

he was angry...


He's right about ripping the players. What he said about the rafters is ignorant.

[Troublemaker]

UNC is a running team that uses its bench. Can we use a short rotation against that approach effectively? It certainly worked tonight so shouldn't be abandoned but maybe a sigghtlye xpanded lineup to counter the UNC approach?

Actually, UNC plays a 7-man rotation. Not that deep.

And if we're going to play a zone, we're probably going to play fewer players than usual since the guys don't expend as much energy in a zone. I would expect Jack and AOC to be out of the rotation. Maybe another player or two also.



I like mixing in the zone but also think it will be very matchup-dependent. NCSU and UNC-CHeat are good candidates because they shoot poorly - State had several wide open threes in the second half that they missed. Of course they were getting those when we were playing man too, so maybe there’s no difference. Against a team like Notre Dame or VT we’d be playing M2M full time.

UNC historically has been a great team against the zone and this season put up 92 points in the Carrier Dome. It's true that they're not usually loaded with shooters, but their passing and offensive rebounding against the zone are amazing.

Now, with that said, Duke should zone them, anyway.

[RollDevils]

I loved the aggressiveness on offense in the second half. That attacking style from every position (even JG) has been missing the last few weeks. We drove and dished and when we fed Carey he attacked everyone they threw at him and made some nice passes. I was nervous after another sluggish, passive first half. I think you guys were right that the zone forcing some long misses and turnovers leading to run outs and easy (for me to say) baskets really lit the fuse. I guess that is another key for a young team...needing to siphon that emotion from somewhere rather than having to self-ignite it.

I fully believe the zone was key and needed to stop their guard penetration off the high screens, but there were a lot of uncontested shots that State just missed. Not sure that is a long term strategy, but could be effective in spurts. Carolina might not be a great 3 point shooting team, but that elbow shot will kill us. They wont miss as many as State did.

Still confused by the substitutions. Joey starts and then only plays a handful of minutes. Hurt had some solid moments in the first half but I'm not even sure he stood up in the second half. Seems like it would be hard for these kids to get into a rhythm in one game and them across multiple games with such inconsistent rotations. I know K is playing matchups and feeling out who has the energy/hot hand in a given game, but I would be frustrated as a player.

[AZLA]

K ripping fans talking about players...said if they wanted to talk junk about his coaching, that was fine..."they can come into cameron and look in the rafters"

he was angry...

They don't have to go to Cameron. Everyone can watch the Capitol One credit card commercial throughout the NCAA Tourney.

[simplyluvin]

The spark for our season is JRob and the 2-3 zone. Reminiscent of two years ago when Marvin was a defensive liability and we were getting torched on the dribble penetration. Good way to hide Vernon’s deficiencies on the ball screen.

Now the real test. Last few times we had decisive wins we started to think our poop doesn’t stink and lost our poise. Let’s play out the season with fury and a real chip on our shoulder starting Saturday! All I ask is that we play with great intensity and mental fortitude for the rest of the season. Go Duke!

[CoachJ10]

Is key for everyone, but Cassius and Wendell in particular. We need those guys on offense and they are so mich more effective when they play strong. Wendell is stronger and longer than pretty much everyone who guards him...he can score in the paint when he remembers that. When he lowers himself and hesitates, he gives the defense a chance. Cassius’ best trait is his explosiveness...when he combines that with playing strong with the ball...he is hard to guard.

And my Tv can vouch for this...but I was calling for the zone halfway thru the first half.

[heyman25]

They don't have to go to Cameron. Everyone can watch the Capitol One credit card commercial throughout the NCAA Tourney.
Good one. As fans we get emotional and like to vent. Sometimes we have bad judgement.Ripping the fans to me is not a wise move.

[curtis325]

Great win after being outplayed in the first half (and still somehow leading at halftime).

Keep it going.

#UndefeatedinMarch

[proelitedota]

Good one. As fans we get emotional and like to vent. Sometimes we have bad judgement. Ripping the fans to me is not a wise move.

K is getting too old to care about optics. Good optics didn't help us one bit the last 30 years.

[SavDukeGrad]

My only game in Cameron this year, and it was a good one! Cameron was loud! And the lady behind me only poked me once to tell me to sit down. :rolleyes:

Markell Johnson was killing us the first 15 minutes. The switch to zone allowed us to get back into it, despite how poorly we had been shooting. We closed the half well, then finally came alive offensively in the second half.

Great game! Fun win! Loved the zone!

[AZLA]

K is getting too old to care about optics. Good optics didn't help us one bit the last 30 years.

Either way I like that Coach K is fired up -- keep it going!

[pfrduke]

Offensive execution won this game. Starting after a Markell Johnson turnover with 15:35 to play, Duke had 26 possessions the rest of the game (including one possession dribbling the ball out at the end). We had 44 points on those 26 possessions (1.69 points per possessions), scoring on 23 of the 26, including a 10+ minute stretch in which we did not have an empty possession, scoring on 17 straight trips, which is insane. In the last 15:35, we shot 14-21 from the field and rebounded 6 of our 7 misses (NC State also picked up a DR off of a missed FT), plus we added 15-19 from the line. Here’s how it shook out:

Jones 2 FT after 2 ORs
Jones 3
Moore layup
Cassius layup after 2 ORs
Goldwire layup
Moore 2
Cassius dunk
Cassius 2 FT
Cassius dunk
Carey 1-2 FT
Carey 1-2 FT
Cassius 2 &1
Cassius 1-2 FT
Goldwire 2
Carey 2
Carey dunk
Moore 2 FT
Moore TO
Cassius 2
Carey 2 FT after an OR
Jones 2
Jones 2 FT
Jones miss
Jones 1-2 FT
J-Rob dunk after OR
Dribble out

[uh_no]

Offensive execution won this game. Starting after a Markell Johnson turnover with 15:35 to play, Duke had 26 possessions the rest of the game (including one possession dribbling the ball out at the end). We had 44 points on those 26 possessions (1.69 points per possessions), scoring on 23 of the 26, including a 10+ minute stretch in which we did not have an empty possession, scoring on 17 straight trips, which is insane. In the last 15:35, we shot 14-21 from the field and rebounded 6 of our 7 misses (NC State also picked up a DR off of a missed FT), plus we added 15-19 from the line. Here’s how it shook out:

Jones 2 FT after 2 ORs
Jones 3
Moore layup
Cassius layup after 2 ORs
Goldwire layup
Moore 2
Cassius dunk
Cassius 2 FT
Cassius dunk
Carey 1-2 FT
Carey 1-2 FT
Cassius 2 &1
Cassius 1-2 FT
Goldwire 2
Carey 2
Carey dunk
Moore 2 FT
Moore TO
Cassius 2
Carey 2 FT after an OR
Jones 2
Jones 2 FT
Jones miss
Jones 1-2 FT
J-Rob dunk after OR
Dribble out

Great work, but I wouldn't undersell the defensive stretch that held NCSU to 8 points over 11 possessions from 16:30-9:30 in the second half, a cool 64 adjD.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

It was no wonder the guys did better the second half. They had to play the entire first half of offense with Keatts out on the floor practically in their shorts and yelling in their ears!! The ref asked him once to get back of the line but never inforced it. Shoulda had a couple to big fat T's called on him, bless his unsportsmanlike heart.
Love, Ima

[pfrduke]

Great work, but I wouldn't undersell the defensive stretch that held NCSU to 8 points over 11 possessions from 16:30-9:30 in the second half, a cool 64 adjD.

From 15:35 to 7:38, there were 14 possessions for each side. We scored 27 points, they scored 10. That’s pretty much your ballgame.

[pfrduke]

Also, Cassius alley-oop #2 (the one-handed slam) was the SCTop10 #1 play.

[SavDukeGrad]

Cassius Stanley’s dunk was #1 on Sportscenter Top 10.

[roywhite]

From 15:35 to 7:38, there were 14 possessions for each side. We scored 27 points, they scored 10. That’s pretty much your ballgame.

Obviously, we'd like to bottle that level of play and use it often.

How did we do it and what sticks out?
Overall good energy, strong rebounding, good defense, and really pushing the pace to get transition buckets and draw fouls.

[SavDukeGrad]

It was no wonder the guys did better the second half. They had to play the entire first half of offense with Keatts out on the floor practically in their shorts and yelling in their ears!! The ref asked him once to get back of the line but never inforced it. Shoulda had a couple to big fat T's called on him, bless his unsportsmanlike heart.
Love, Ima

I thought the same thing, Ima. Reminded me of Buzz, the way he was out on the floor.

[Billy Dat]

The Zone was an act of desperation that worked. Kudos to K for the verve. It completely altered the entire game.

I thought Goldwire was incredible tonight. I also thought Moore was extremely helpful as a ballhandler and finisher. It was great to see the “old Cassius”. J Rob gave us a heck of an effort.

I am thrilled that we won but I am not sure what it means going forward. We still seem unable to play M2M against top 50 offenses. Still, I won’t quibble. We got a big win we desperately needed.

[Kedsy]

After watching the team struggle defensively for at least the last 3 years, I am convinced that freshman cannot defend consistently at a high level.

Duke's dRating national rank the past three seasons:

2020: #11 (and counting)
2019: #6
2018: #9

What exactly have you been watching?

[Kedsy]

Just like everyone was saying before the game, I'm glad Stanley stepped up as a third option behind Robinson and Goldwire.

[uh_no]

Also, Cassius alley-oop #2 (the one-handed slam) was the SCTop10 #1 play.

my angle was effectively perpendicular to the ray from the center of the ball to the hoop when cassius grabbed it...so from my perspective, it was as par away as it could possibly seem.

When the pass was thrown, several things went through my head in quick successions:

- oh stanley is over there, he should throw the lob
- ah crap, he way overthrew it
- da heck? stanley is going up for it?
- that is going to get tipped into the crowd for sure

At that point, my brain turned into some sort of goop, because the next part of my memory is me squatting on the ground with my hands on top of my head screaming like a lunatic.

Zion's 360 tomahawk last year was one thing...but this broke me. There is no amount of rationality to what happened on that play. The replays don't do justice to what I saw.

[camion]

my angle was effectively perpendicular to the ray from the center of the ball to the hoop when cassius grabbed it...so from my perspective, it was as par away as it could possibly seem.

When the pass was thrown, several things went through my head in quick successions:

- oh stanley is over there, he should throw the lob
- ah crap, he way overthrew it
- da heck? stanley is going up for it?
- that is going to get tipped into the crowd for sure

At that point, my brain turned into some sort of goop, because the next part of my memory is me squatting on the ground with my hands on top of my head screaming like a lunatic.

Zion's 360 tomahawk last year was one thing...but this broke me. There is no amount of rationality to what happened on that play. The replays don't do justice to what I saw.

When I saw the play in real time I thought, “What? How?? No Way!!!”

On seeing slow motion replays the What and How were answered. I just kept repeating the No Way!!! while replaying it several more times. :eek: :confused: :D

[Kedsy]

Well, the armchair Duke fan's dream: Justin Robinson and zone defense. Nice that it added up to a revenge game and another home win against NC State (a team that has won just once at Duke after 1995).

OFFENSE

Possessions: 71.4 (an OK pace for us)
oRtg: 1.23 (1.28 adjusted; outstanding)
eFG%: 51.6% (not great, but we'll take it)
3pt%: 33.3% (acceptable)
2pt%: 52.1% (decent, not particularly good)
%threes: 23.8% (a little low)
FT rate: 42.9% (very strong)
OR%: 47.1% (fab)
TO%: 16.8% (pretty good; 6th straight game under 20%)
a/to: 1.17:1
%assisted: 46.7%
fast break pts: 25 (28.4% of points; really, really good)

DEFENSE

dRtg: 0.97 (0.89 adjusted; good; 5th game out of seven in which our dRating was under 0.90)
eFG%: 47.5% (pretty good)
3pt%: 23.8% (very good)
2pt%: 53.8% (not so hot)
%threes: 35.0% (high, for this year's Duke team; only 11th time in 30 games that an opponent has taken 30% or more of their shots from three)
FT rate: 31.7% (not great)
DR%: 76.9% (very strong; 5th game out of last six in which we've topped 72% in this stat; 4th out of six that we've topped 76%)
TO%: 15.4% (lousy; 10th defensive TO% under 20% in our last 12 games)
a/to: 1.27:1
%assisted: 53.8%
stl%: 11.2% (nice; two decent steals games in a row, after 8 disappointing steals performance in our 10 games before that)
blk%: 10.0% (15.4% of 2pt shots) (strong man emoji)
fast break pts: 6 (8.7% of points; very good)

So, really good offense and really good defense. Not sure the zone can be a long term thing, but it certainly turned the game around tonight.

[mgtr]

So, it is alleged that ou tired old coach needs to bring in fresh ideas to play modern
ACC ball. Our decreipt old coach has many tricks in his bag, and to quote a famous gentleman who once ruled 42ND street You ain.t seen nothin. yet!

[gep]

It was no wonder the guys did better the second half. They had to play the entire first half of offense with Keatts out on the floor practically in their shorts and yelling in their ears!! The ref asked him once to get back of the line but never inforced it. Shoulda had a couple to big fat T's called on him, bless his unsportsmanlike heart.
Love, Ima


I thought the same thing, Ima. Reminded me of Buzz, the way he was out on the floor.

This is my most biggest peeve in college basketball. Coaches are sometimes near the key on the court... yet NO T. I can't stand it... AT ALL. If they can't stand in their "box" where they are supposed to, then CALL A T. They suspend players for leaving the bench area... after review AFTER the game. They should do the same for coaches...

[wsb3]

This is my most biggest peeve in college basketball. Coaches are sometimes near the key on the court... yet NO T. I can't stand it... AT ALL. If they can't stand in their "box" where they are supposed to, then CALL A T. They suspend players for leaving the bench area... after review AFTER the game. They should do the same for coaches...

I am waiting for one of them to get run over and we will wait to see if it is a block or a charge.

But still my pet peeve shall remain the ridiculous amount of time spent reviewing plays.

[House G]

Well, the armchair Duke fan's dream: Justin Robinson and zone defense. Nice that it added up to a revenge game and another home win against NC State (a team that has won just once at Duke after 1995).

OFFENSE

Possessions: 71.4 (an OK pace for us)
oRtg: 1.23 (1.28 adjusted; outstanding)
eFG%: 51.6% (not great, but we'll take it)
3pt%: 33.3% (acceptable)
2pt%: 52.1% (decent, not particularly good)
%threes: 23.8% (a little low)
FT rate: 42.9% (very strong)
OR%: 47.1% (fab)
TO%: 16.8% (pretty good; 6th straight game under 20%)
a/to: 1.17:1
%assisted: 46.7%
fast break pts: 25 (28.4% of points; really, really good)

DEFENSE

dRtg: 0.97 (0.89 adjusted; good; 5th game out of seven in which our dRating was under 0.90)
eFG%: 47.5% (pretty good)
3pt%: 23.8% (very good)
2pt%: 53.8% (not so hot)
%threes: 35.0% (high, for this year's Duke team; only 11th time in 30 games that an opponent has taken 30% or more of their shots from three)
FT rate: 31.7% (not great)
DR%: 76.9% (very strong; 5th game out of last six in which we've topped 72% in this stat; 4th out of six that we've topped 76%)
TO%: 15.4% (lousy; 10th defensive TO% under 20% in our last 12 games)
a/to: 1.27:1
%assisted: 53.8%
stl%: 11.2% (nice; two decent steals games in a row, after 8 disappointing steals performance in our 10 games before that)
blk%: 10.0% (15.4% of 2pt shots) (strong man emoji)
fast break pts: 6 (8.7% of points; very good)

So, really good offense and really good defense. Not sure the zone can be a long term thing, but it certainly turned the game around tonight.

To your last point, I fell asleep last night thinking about the game and woke up at 4 am thinking about Jack Givens.

[cruxer]

Didn’t K institute the zone D very late in the 2015 season?

I remember this well. The zone was a wrinkle in the Louisville gameplan (at Louisville!) which gave us a nice bounce back after a loss. It did seem to restore our defensive confidence for the rest of the regular season, but as others have pointed out, we didn't really use it in the tourney much at all even though we played outstanding defense for those 6 games. Go figure.

-c

[weezie]

This is my most biggest peeve in college basketball. Coaches are sometimes near the key on the court...

Sometimes?! Try nearly every game. St. Tony sashayed out to the free throw line this past Sat night for a tete a tete with the ref as his team came in on a time out. K got an angry warning and the sharp finger point when he walked down the bench line.
Selective reffing, that's all it is.

[weezie]

Just like everyone was saying before the game, I'm glad Stanley stepped up as a third option behind Robinson and Goldwire.

Love this!

[Scorp4me]

We should have an 8 man rotation on any given night. Start Goldwire, Moore, Jones, Stanley, and Carey. Robinson should take all of Javins minutes, I'm sorry to say it but I can't believe it's taken K this long. It's like he doesn't want to believe what he sees sometimes. The other two should come from whoever has the hot hand on that night. Plenty of options in Alex, Alex, Joey, and Matt. And we should not be afraid to use the zone. Doesn't have to be our identity, but it should be an option that we don't feel bad about using. Heck with the defensive pressure we can exert work on a full court or 3/4 press. Don't let them know what's coming!

[DevilHorse]

Also, Cassius alley-oop #2 (the one-handed slam) was the SCTop10 #1 play.

A highlight for sure for the Camera Crazies in attendance.

Larry
DevilHorse

[weezie]

Help me out here, haven't read whole thread but has anyone commented on how well Hurt played last night? Youngster was banging! He looked like a whole new guy.
Grit. That's what it is.

[Saratoga2]

Yep, we saw this two seasons ago with Carter and Bagley. Made the switch about halfway through the conference season, but then by the end of the season opponents had figured it out.

I like mixing in the zone but also think it will be very matchup-dependent. NCSU and UNC-CHeat are good candidates because they shoot poorly - State had several wide open threes in the second half that they missed. Of course they were getting those when we were playing man too, so maybe there’s no difference. Against a team like Notre Dame or VT we’d be playing M2M full time.

I'm surprised Duke has never tried the Pack-Line which UVA has used so effectively. In a way, the 2-3 zone we were playing with active guards had some of the same features.

[Devilwin]

Team win. Accolades to them all. One thing that does worry me is Wendell's ball handling. But he is tough and hard nosed..

[Indoor66]

Actually, UNC plays a 7-man rotation. Not that deep.

And if we're going to play a zone, we're probably going to play fewer players than usual since the guys don't expend as much energy in a zone. I would expect Jack and AOC to be out of the rotation. Maybe another player or two also.



UNC historically has been a great team against the zone and this season put up 92 points in the Carrier Dome. It's true that they're not usually loaded with shooters, but their passing and offensive rebounding against the zone are amazing.

Now, with that said, Duke should zone them, anyway.

I imagine we will come out in M2M and see how it is working. If needed, we will switch to zone.

[Indoor66]

So, it is alleged that ou tired old coach needs to bring in fresh ideas to play modern
ACC ball. Our decreipt old coach has many tricks in his bag, and to quote a famous gentleman who once ruled 42ND street You ain.t seen nothin. yet!

That was "nuttin" and he said that because his knickname was the "schnoz".

[Saratoga2]

We should have an 8 man rotation on any given night. Start Goldwire, Moore, Jones, Stanley, and Carey. Robinson should take all of Javins minutes, I'm sorry to say it but I can't believe it's taken K this long. It's like he doesn't want to believe what he sees sometimes. The other two should come from whoever has the hot hand on that night. Plenty of options in Alex, Alex, Joey, and Matt. And we should not be afraid to use the zone. Doesn't have to be our identity, but it should be an option that we don't feel bad about using. Heck with the defensive pressure we can exert work on a full court or 3/4 press. Don't let them know what's coming!

If it is to be zone, JRob proved his worth. His length and savy and ability to score are benefits. Perhaps Hurt, who is also long and has good scoring ability can also learn to play in the zone. That gives us all the bodies we need. It looks like Jack, AOC and Baker will find it harder to get minutes.

[Jaks19]

I kind of think that Vernon, Tre, Cassius and Moore might start and the 5th starter is up for grabs. At this point, why not JRob. Then let Matt and JGold Javin come in. Jack, Alex and Joey all find their minutes

[UrinalCake]

I'm surprised Duke has never tried the Pack-Line which UVA has used so effectively. In a way, the 2-3 zone we were playing with active guards had some of the same features.

We essentially played this in 2010. It was technically a man defense but we backed off of the ball screens and clogged in the middle. Somehow we were still able to defend the three really well.

[Lurkingdukedog]

J Rob was fantastic as was Goldwire but don’t sleep on Stanley as key to this game.
.. . . . When he plays with confidence and energy they feel different as an entire team.
Its not just the dunks, its the drives, the rebounding. Of course was fantastic and unexpected but Stanley is the lightning rod that really changes this team..

Don't forget, he also had a killer block in the 2nd half that led to another fast break bucket.

[ns7]

Yep, we saw this two seasons ago with Carter and Bagley. Made the switch about halfway through the conference season, but then by the end of the season opponents had figured it out.


No one really figured out that 2017-2018 team defensively after the switch to zone. The problem was that the offense fell off at the same time the defense got fixed by the switch to zone. Maybe you could argue Syracuse in the Sweet Sixteen--that was a strange game where Syracuse rebounded well on offense and shot midrange jumpers well too. We generally held Kansas in check until OT. The big outage against Kansas was on offense. Kansas was a terrible rebounding team on defense (and Duke was #1 at offensive rebounding) and Kansas somehow won that battle decisively.

[porkpa]

Why has JRob been virtually hidden for four seasons?

[uh_no]

Why has JRob been virtually hidden for four seasons?

because the teams we care about beating are better than NCSU.

I love JRob and what he brought to the floor last night....but I think we need a small dose of reality here...which is that the reason he can be on the floor is because NCSU isn't that good. The teams we're going to have to beat to make a deep run in the tournament aren't going to leave him wide open for three or forget to box him out. I still believe that justin robinson will find it far harder to be productive against better equipped teams.

We see it here a lot "to be successful, duke needs X to be playing well, and so we play them even though they might not be playing well right NOW"

I think this is the case with justin. We would have needed slightly more dynamic guys like joey and alex to be productive for a deep run. Clearly that didn't happen, so our last ditch effort is for justin to be playing well.

Don't get me wrong. I loved everything about his play last night and was screaming my head off....but i'm skeptical he can be as much of a difference maker against better teams, and unfortunately we have 0 data points so far.

We will see. Prove me wrong hot shot!

[hustleplays]

Duke was in a zone in the 2nd half.

You tell me Man 2 Man that Duke was in a Zone!


Preemptive apologies...

[rsvman]

I imagine we will come out in M2M and see how it is working. If needed, we will switch to zone.

I think we should switch up the defense against "U"NC, using mostly zone but going to the man-to-man periodically. Maybe in a pattern that they can't figure out, like, say, every fourth possession or something.

By the time those geniuses figure out that we are going man-to-man exactly every fourth possession, the game will be over!

[Tripping William]

I think we should switch up the defense against "U"NC, using mostly zone but going to the man-to-man periodically. Maybe in a pattern that they can't figure out, like, say, every fourth possession or something.

By the time those geniuses figure out that we are going man-to-man exactly every fourth possession, the game will be over!

Maybe we can come up with a way to do it alphabetically. Like how Gut used to choose his starters. :rolleyes:

[elvis14]

because the teams we care about beating are better than NCSU.

I love JRob and what he brought to the floor last night...but I think we need a small dose of reality here...which is that the reason he can be on the floor is because NCSU isn't that good. The teams we're going to have to beat to make a deep run in the tournament aren't going to leave him wide open for three or forget to box him out. I still believe that justin robinson will find it far harder to be productive against better equipped teams.

We see it here a lot "to be successful, duke needs X to be playing well, and so we play them even though they might not be playing well right NOW"

I think this is the case with justin. We would have needed slightly more dynamic guys like joey and alex to be productive for a deep run. Clearly that didn't happen, so our last ditch effort is for justin to be playing well.

Don't get me wrong. I loved everything about his play last night and was screaming my head off...but i'm skeptical he can be as much of a difference maker against better teams, and unfortunately we have 0 data points so far.

We will see. Prove me wrong hot shot!

As I'm reading your post, I'm agreeing with you....and then I remember that Javin gets plenty of minutes. For me, I just don't see why Javin's minutes shouldn't be given to JRob until/unless JRob shows that he's in over his head against a team. When Javin missed yet another layup in the first half last night I said a few words that the wankerizer would find objectionable.

[weezie]

Javin can still give Vernon a bit of rest in short doses. Emphasis on short

[UrinalCake]

I love JRob and what he brought to the floor last night...but I think we need a small dose of reality here...which is that the reason he can be on the floor is because NCSU isn't that good.

Agree that playing well against State (and also Wake) is not the same thing as playing well against an elite opponent. But I would nevertheless argue that Robinson should be ahead of Javin in the rotation right now. He provides at least the same level of defensive presence, and he provides more on offense.

As for why he has been “hidden” for four years, I think that has more to do with the other big men we’ve had on our roster. And K is not going to play someone regularly for just 5 minutes a game.

[azzefkram]

Nice win after an ugly first 10 minutes. It appeared to me that the half court offense, especially in the 2nd half, had significantly more movement than the past few games. Less pound the ball into Vern and more move things around and see what shakes loose. I like it.

[OldPhiKap]

Calling Ozzie, I need a status check . . . .

[jv001]

because the teams we care about beating are better than NCSU.

I love JRob and what he brought to the floor last night...but I think we need a small dose of reality here...which is that the reason he can be on the floor is because NCSU isn't that good. The teams we're going to have to beat to make a deep run in the tournament aren't going to leave him wide open for three or forget to box him out. I still believe that justin robinson will find it far harder to be productive against better equipped teams.

We see it here a lot "to be successful, duke needs X to be playing well, and so we play them even though they might not be playing well right NOW"

I think this is the case with justin. We would have needed slightly more dynamic guys like joey and alex to be productive for a deep run. Clearly that didn't happen, so our last ditch effort is for justin to be playing well.

Don't get me wrong. I loved everything about his play last night and was screaming my head off...but i'm skeptical he can be as much of a difference maker against better teams, and unfortunately we have 0 data points so far.

We will see. Prove me wrong hot shot!

You could very well be correct in your assessment of J-Rob going forward but I think he'll be somewhere in between. As for minutes, he should get most of Javins minutes. Javin has had the opportunity to play against these same "poor" teams and has not been consistent over his four year. And he's been given more opportunities than J-Rob. I think you are correct to a degree in that we need Joey and Alex to step up and be productive. But Joey and Alex play very different positions than J-Rob. The wing positions should give us outside shooting and good defense in the man2man. Coach K said last night that Johnson for State is magical with the ball and that's true but so are other guards and wings. He said to stop Johnson, all five players need to play defense to stop him. Can Alex, Joey and Matt play the man2man defense that's needed to get Duke to where they want to be. We have more data points on that than we do on J-Rob.

GoDuke!

[jv001]

I think we should switch up the defense against "U"NC, using mostly zone but going to the man-to-man periodically. Maybe in a pattern that they can't figure out, like, say, every fourth possession or something.

By the time those geniuses figure out that we are going man-to-man exactly every fourth possession, the game will be over!

We know old roy won't call a timeout to get the cheats to figure out what's going on. :cool:

GoDuke!

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I think we should switch up the defense against "U"NC, using mostly zone but going to the man-to-man periodically. Maybe in a pattern that they can't figure out, like, say, every fourth possession or something.

By the time those geniuses figure out that we are going man-to-man exactly every fourth possession, the game will be over!
Did they get a walk-on who can count to four? If not, this strategy should work well. :D

[jv001]

Javin can still give Vernon a bit of rest in short doses. Emphasis on short

Like in seconds. :cool:

GoDuke!

[CDu]

because the teams we care about beating are better than NCSU.

I love JRob and what he brought to the floor last night...but I think we need a small dose of reality here...which is that the reason he can be on the floor is because NCSU isn't that good. The teams we're going to have to beat to make a deep run in the tournament aren't going to leave him wide open for three or forget to box him out. I still believe that justin robinson will find it far harder to be productive against better equipped teams.

We see it here a lot "to be successful, duke needs X to be playing well, and so we play them even though they might not be playing well right NOW"

I think this is the case with justin. We would have needed slightly more dynamic guys like joey and alex to be productive for a deep run. Clearly that didn't happen, so our last ditch effort is for justin to be playing well.

Don't get me wrong. I loved everything about his play last night and was screaming my head off...but i'm skeptical he can be as much of a difference maker against better teams, and unfortunately we have 0 data points so far.

We will see. Prove me wrong hot shot!

I mostly agree. Robinson was a huge shot in the arm against Wake and then against State. But one of those teams is fairly bad and the other is a bubble team. There are definite athletic and strength limitations that may prove more problematic against better teams. Though I will say that if we play zone more often, some of those concerns dissipate a bit.

As for the "what we need moving forward", I still say it boils down to the trio of Hurt/Stanley/Moore. When we were struggling in the first half last night, those three were struggling. When they stepped it up, the team took off.

With Stanley, the issue appears to be assertiveness and opportunism. With Moore, it's a matter of playing under control. In the first half, he was struggling, and that included at least one brutally bad turnover. He has the talent to be a game changer as a combo forward, but man does he make it hard to stick with him at times. With Hurt, I think it just boils down to the fact that he hasn't caught up with the speed, athleticism, and physicality of the college game. So his opportunities have been somewhat more limited. But he seems to be showing some signs of life, with solid performances in 5 of his last 7 games.

If one of those 3 becomes a consistent positive presence, we become a contender. If two of them do, we become a very serious contender. If none do, well, it will remain a smoke and mirrors situation the rest of the way.

[Kedsy]

As I'm reading your post, I'm agreeing with you...and then I remember that Javin gets plenty of minutes. For me, I just don't see why Javin's minutes shouldn't be given to JRob until/unless JRob shows that he's in over his head against a team. When Javin missed yet another layup in the first half last night I said a few words that the wankerizer would find objectionable.

Please stop, you guys. You guys talk like Javin can't hit a layup, can't get a rebound, and can't play defense. NONE of that is true.

Yeah, Javin missed a layup last night. He missed a dunk vs. UVa. But for his career, Javin has hit 73.2% of his shots at the rim. That's actually amazing. For comparison's sake, Vernon Carey has hit 64.9% of his shots at the rim (in the same ballpark of attempts as Javin's career). Javin is a significantly better rebounder than Justin and a significantly better defender. If you go "eye on" Javin during a defensive possession, he's everywhere. He's our best help defender, he's the main defensive communicator when he's out there, he's our best hedge-and-recover guy on PNR.

Justin was great last night, and great against Wake, but giving Javin's minutes to Justin is not the answer moving forward.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Please stop, you guys. You guys talk like Javin can't hit a layup, can't get a rebound, and can't play defense. NONE of that is true.

Yeah, Javin missed a layup last night. He missed a dunk vs. UVa. But for his career, Javin has hit 73.2% of his shots at the rim. That's actually amazing. For comparison's sake, Vernon Carey has hit 64.9% of his shots at the rim (in the same ballpark of attempts as Javin's career). Javin is a significantly better rebounder than Justin and a significantly better defender. If you go "eye on" Javin during a defensive possession, he's everywhere. He's our best help defender, he's the main defensive communicator when he's out there, he's our best hedge-and-recover guy on PNR.

Justin was great last night, and great against Wake, but giving Javin's minutes to Justin is not the answer moving forward.

Didn't Javin come close to a Duke record for consecutive makes last year?

[robed deity]

I mostly agree. Robinson was a huge shot in the arm against Wake and then against State. But one of those teams is fairly bad and the other is a bubble team. There are definite athletic and strength limitations that may prove more problematic against better teams. Though I will say that if we play zone more often, some of those concerns dissipate a bit.

As for the "what we need moving forward", I still say it boils down to the trio of Hurt/Stanley/Moore. When we were struggling in the first half last night, those three were struggling. When they stepped it up, the team took off.

With Stanley, the issue appears to be assertiveness and opportunism. With Moore, it's a matter of playing under control. In the first half, he was struggling, and that included at least one brutally bad turnover. He has the talent to be a game changer as a combo forward, but man does he make it hard to stick with him at times. With Hurt, I think it just boils down to the fact that he hasn't caught up with the speed, athleticism, and physicality of the college game. So his opportunities have been somewhat more limited. But he seems to be showing some signs of life, with solid performances in 5 of his last 7 games.

If one of those 3 becomes a consistent positive presence, we become a contender. If two of them do, we become a very serious contender. If none do, well, it will remain a smoke and mirrors situation the rest of the way.

Agree with all of this. Stanley seems to be the most likely. But man, I wish Moore would. I really love his game, and the physicality and length are big pluses. But the handle and carelessness with the ball (almost non chalant-ness?) at times are certainly frustrating.

[Kedsy]

Didn't Javin come close to a Duke record for consecutive makes last year?

Yes, he was one less than the record. Which is also an ACC record.

[Rich]

I remember this well. The zone was a wrinkle in the Louisville gameplan (at Louisville!) which gave us a nice bounce back after a loss. It did seem to restore our defensive confidence for the rest of the regular season, but as others have pointed out, we didn't really use it in the tourney much at all even though we played outstanding defense for those 6 games. Go figure.

-c

True, but that game was on January 17. Not to be a downer, but we have a lot less time to fix the M2M this year.

[Kedsy]

True, but that game was on January 17. Not to be a downer, but we have a lot less time to fix the M2M this year.

Yeah, but it's a lot less broken this year than it was then.

[weezie]

One other thing that wore the wulvies out was having to press hard last half of second half. For better or worse Duke presses almost continuously in the majority of games. state was worn out after a few trips down the court.

[jv001]

One other thing that wore the wulvies out was having to press hard last half of second half. For better or worse Duke presses almost continuously in the majority of games. state was worn out after a few trips down the court.

Very good point and the zone helped Duke stay fresh in the 2nd half.

GoDuke!

[DukieInBrasil]

Didn't Javin come close to a Duke record for consecutive makes last year?

Tied the record with 19 strait FG makes

[53n206]

6 players in double figures and solid all around play(especially 2nd half).

Goldwire= 11 points, 5 assists, 2 turnovers, 2 steals and 6 rebounds
J-Rob= 10 points, 6 rebounds(4 offensive), 1 assist, 1 block.
Moore= 10 points, 6 rebounds, 1 assist, 2 turnovers
Stanley= 18 points, 7 rebounds(4 offensive) 1 assist, 2 blocks
Carey= 17 points, 7 rebounds, 1 steal, 2 blocks.
Tre= 15 points, 4 assists, 3 turnovers, 4 steals, 3 rebounds

Team: 48% FG, 33% on 3s, 85% FTs, 46 rebounds, 16 offensive boards, 14 assists, 12 turnovers, 5 steals and 6 blocks.

A good game from the good guys. Now some time before the cheats come to town.
9F

GoDuke!

Stats like this make it look like a team effort. Indeed it was. GoDuke!

[jimsumner]

When I saw the play in real time I thought, “What? How?? No Way!!!”

On seeing slow motion replays the What and How were answered. I just kept repeating the No Way!!! while replaying it several more times. :eek: :confused: :D

Stanley was remarkably blasé about it. His attitude seemed to be "he threw the ball in the air, I grabbed it and dunked it. That's what I do." But he did allow that he thought he had jumped too high.

[robed deity]

Stanley was remarkably blasé about it. His attitude seemed to be "he threw the ball in the air, I grabbed it and dunked it. That's what I do." But he did allow that he thought he had jumped too high.

Yeah jeez, don't you hate when that happens-when you jump TOO high?

[flyingdutchdevil]

Please stop, you guys. You guys talk like Javin can't hit a layup, can't get a rebound, and can't play defense. NONE of that is true.

Yeah, Javin missed a layup last night. He missed a dunk vs. UVa. But for his career, Javin has hit 73.2% of his shots at the rim. That's actually amazing. For comparison's sake, Vernon Carey has hit 64.9% of his shots at the rim (in the same ballpark of attempts as Javin's career). Javin is a significantly better rebounder than Justin and a significantly better defender. If you go "eye on" Javin during a defensive possession, he's everywhere. He's our best help defender, he's the main defensive communicator when he's out there, he's our best hedge-and-recover guy on PNR.

Justin was great last night, and great against Wake, but giving Javin's minutes to Justin is not the answer moving forward.

I want Javin to back up Carey, but we need to acknowledge that Javin hasn't improved this year. He didn't have that "Zoubek-ian" leap that a few thought he'd have. He's shooting only 54.2% this year compared to 74.7% last year. That's a shocking 20%+ lower. On a per 40 min basis, his rebounds are basically the same as is his personal fouls (something we all wished he improved on). Arguably the only statistical measure he's improved on is FT%, and he only shoots 1.3 a game.

This isn't to say Javin isn't valuable; he is. His senior year is arguably disappointing to those who thought he'd be much improved to last year (like Zoubek).

[53n206]

We should have an 8 man rotation on any given night. Start Goldwire, Moore, Jones, Stanley, and Carey. Robinson should take all of Javins minutes, I'm sorry to say it but I can't believe it's taken K this long. It's like he doesn't want to believe what he sees sometimes. The other two should come from whoever has the hot hand on that night. Plenty of options in Alex, Alex, Joey, and Matt. And we should not be afraid to use the zone. Doesn't have to be our identity, but it should be an option that we don't feel bad about using. Heck with the defensive pressure we can exert work on a full court or 3/4 press. Don't let them know what's coming!

Don't post such observations. You'll be ripped by any number of old timers who will take such sayings as criticism of Coach K.

[53n206]

From CDu: " one of those teams is fairly bad and the other is a bubble team." Where does that leave us? Can we be called a"home" team?

[53n206]

Please stop, you guys. You guys talk like Javin can't hit a layup, can't get a rebound, and can't play defense. NONE of that is true.

Yeah, Javin missed a layup last night. He missed a dunk vs. UVa. But for his career, Javin has hit 73.2% of his shots at the rim. That's actually amazing. For comparison's sake, Vernon Carey has hit 64.9% of his shots at the rim (in the same ballpark of attempts as Javin's career). Javin is a significantly better rebounder than Justin and a significantly better defender. If you go "eye on" Javin during a defensive possession, he's everywhere. He's our best help defender, he's the main defensive communicator when he's out there, he's our best hedge-and-recover guy on PNR.

Justin was great last night, and great against Wake, but giving Javin's minutes to Justin is not the answer moving forward.

You're correct - and our coach is well aware to it.

[CDu]

From CDu: " one of those teams is fairly bad and the other is a bubble team." Where does that leave us? Can we be called a"home" team?

I would call us a team that is still figuring things out. We're clearly better than State and Wake based on our performances this season, even if we did lose at their places in epic fashion.

The concerning thing is that we're playing worse now than we did earlier in the season, but even then we're still a decent team (we're #28 nationally over the past 10 games per Bart Torvik's math). And if we can figure out the adjustments to our opponents' adjustments, we could potentially return to that top-10 caliber of play.

[DukeDevilDeb]

but did anyone hear the post-game interview with JRob? He was telling Jon Roth that they had not practiced zone at all (yes, at all) and taught it during halftime with moving around chairs in the locker room. This team had 15 minutes between halves in the locker room and did well enough defensively (and offensively of course) to win big? Man. That amazed me.

Go Devils!

[Troublemaker]

I fully believe the zone was key and needed to stop their guard penetration off the high screens, but there were a lot of uncontested shots that State just missed. Not sure that is a long term strategy, but could be effective in spurts. Carolina might not be a great 3 point shooting team, but that elbow shot will kill us. They wont miss as many as State did.

Most likely, they would, though. We went through this in the 2018 season when we went to zone full-time (not that I necessarily believe Coach K will repeat history with this team). We basically left the FT area open every game, and opponents could not hit that shot efficiently enough to stop Duke's defensive ranking from soaring towards the top. The 2-pt jumpshot, even if open, just isn't a very good shot unless you're Kevin Durant or Kawhi Leonard.

The 2018 team also became great at defending the 3-pt shot after the switch to zone. That might end up being the difference and why this team can't use zone long-term. We just don't have the size of the 2018 team -- not up front, and not on the wings. So, I'm not sure this zone will end up defending the 3 well.

[subzero02]

And Goldwire solid.

Goldwire was better than solid; he was good. He has improved so much in his ability to finish drives. Earlier in his career he had multiple embarrassingly horrendous layup attempts. His stat line from last night: 38 minutes, 11 points, 5 assists and 6 rebounds on 5 of 7 shooting with only 2 turnovers.

[CDu]

but did anyone hear the post-game interview with JRob? He was telling Jon Roth that they had not practiced zone at all (yes, at all) and taught it during halftime with moving around chairs in the locker room. This team had 15 minutes between halves in the locker room and did well enough defensively (and offensively of course) to win big? Man. That amazed me.

Go Devils!

Considering that we have played zone already some this year, I don't think "at all" is an accurate take. At least not in the "at all this season" sense. I'm guessing he meant that they hadn't practiced it at all before the State game (not surprising since they may not have even had a practice between the UVa and State game). But I can't imagine that Coach K would have had us playing zone on multiple occasions if they hadn't practiced it at some point this year.

Also, worth noting that we went to the zone with about 5 minutes still to go in the first half. So I'm guessing that the "moving chairs at halftime" was just the coaches reminding the team of the principles they had been taught earlier in the season rather than the first introduction to playing zone all season. I can't imagine Coach K would put us in a defense that we hadn't practiced at all before.

[simplyluvin]

Yep, we saw this two seasons ago with Carter and Bagley. Made the switch about halfway through the conference season, but then by the end of the season opponents had figured it out.

I like mixing in the zone but also think it will be very matchup-dependent. NCSU and UNC-CHeat are good candidates because they shoot poorly - State had several wide open threes in the second half that they missed. Of course they were getting those when we were playing man too, so maybe there’s no difference. Against a team like Notre Dame or VT we’d be playing M2M full time.

2015 is a good example of Coach going zone to create a spark for the team. It seems to be that 2018 could be a better example of where our trajectory with zone D should go. As I recall, we went zone because we had serious problems with dribble penetration (possibly off high ball screen, but I don't exactly recall), and I believe some of this was due to our two bigs (Marvin and Wendell) not adequately compensating in M2M. If memories serves, we went zone as primary the rest of the season to largely good effect (top 10 in adjusted D efficiency). Will be interesting to see what Coach does...switching off Vernon seemed to have been a real vulnerability for us lately. If we can hide that and create more live ball TOs, why not go to zone more often?

[dukelifer]

I mostly agree. Robinson was a huge shot in the arm against Wake and then against State. But one of those teams is fairly bad and the other is a bubble team. There are definite athletic and strength limitations that may prove more problematic against better teams. Though I will say that if we play zone more often, some of those concerns dissipate a bit.

As for the "what we need moving forward", I still say it boils down to the trio of Hurt/Stanley/Moore. When we were struggling in the first half last night, those three were struggling. When they stepped it up, the team took off.

With Stanley, the issue appears to be assertiveness and opportunism. With Moore, it's a matter of playing under control. In the first half, he was struggling, and that included at least one brutally bad turnover. He has the talent to be a game changer as a combo forward, but man does he make it hard to stick with him at times. With Hurt, I think it just boils down to the fact that he hasn't caught up with the speed, athleticism, and physicality of the college game. So his opportunities have been somewhat more limited. But he seems to be showing some signs of life, with solid performances in 5 of his last 7 games.

If one of those 3 becomes a consistent positive presence, we become a contender. If two of them do, we become a very serious contender. If none do, well, it will remain a smoke and mirrors situation the rest of the way.

Yes- This is a team that will need those guys in some combination to play well from here on out. All have had big games this year. So we know they have it in them. If they stay 2 or 3 years- they are all All-ACC caliber- but confidence is fleeting in young players. Stanley needs to get going and so setting him up for some easy buckets early would help. Moore likes to run so Duke has to rebound and outlet and Hurt needs to get his feet set. Each of them is limited by their ability to dribble in traffic- not an easy skill to master and with Moore- he can get out of control on drives. But if they figure it out and reduce mistakes- Duke is in this thing. But we are getting to win or go home time. Not a lot of time to figure it out.

[Kedsy]

I want Javin to back up Carey, but we need to acknowledge that Javin hasn't improved this year. He didn't have that "Zoubek-ian" leap that a few thought he'd have. He's shooting only 54.2% this year compared to 74.7% last year. That's a shocking 20%+ lower. On a per 40 min basis, his rebounds are basically the same as is his personal fouls (something we all wished he improved on). Arguably the only statistical measure he's improved on is FT%, and he only shoots 1.3 a game.

This isn't to say Javin isn't valuable; he is. His senior year is arguably disappointing to those who thought he'd be much improved to last year (like Zoubek).

You're right, he hasn't had the Zoubekian leap. But it's worth noting that Z's "leap" was mostly a factor of getting more minutes, while Javin has been getting fewer minutes this season.

But most of the rest of your post is incorrect. On a 40 minute basis this season, Javin has 10.8 rebounds per 40 and 6.6 fouls per 40. That's hardly "basically the same." He did have some shooting problems early this season, but if you look at his conference numbers, he's shooting 64.7% on two-point shots in conference play vs. 67.9% on twos in conference play last year. Not that big a difference. According to advanced stats, Javin has improved his rebounding, assists, turnovers, and free throw shooting, while maintaining very strong steals and blocks numbers. Even his usage is up a little.

It's hard to tell how much someone has improved when they only get in the game for 6 minutes (like Javin last night), but it's worth noting he had four rebounds and a block in those 6 minutes, and played good defense. I'm not saying he's been a superstar this season, but a lot of people around here are being way too hard on him.

[CDu]

The 2018 team also became great at defending the 3-pt shot after the switch to zone. That might end up being the difference and why this team can't use zone long-term. We just don't have the size of the 2018 team -- not up front, and not on the wings. So, I'm not sure this zone will end up defending the 3 well.

Agreed. I definitely have some reservations about this team's ability to defend the 3 in a zone. That said, I think it's a nice weapon to have in the quiver in the event we face a team that can really break us down with the high ball screen action. But I don't know that it is a defense we can go to exclusively with the same success that the 2018 team did.

[Reddevil]

but did anyone hear the post-game interview with JRob? He was telling Jon Roth that they had not practiced zone at all (yes, at all) and taught it during halftime with moving around chairs in the locker room. This team had 15 minutes between halves in the locker room and did well enough defensively (and offensively of course) to win big? Man. That amazed me.

Go Devils!

This is almost astonishing. I mean I am sure they all have played zone in their lives at some point, but for this year's team to coalesce that quickly is really cool. Imagine what a practice or two will do. I'm talkin' 'bout practice man....practice.....:cool:

[Phredd3]

The 2-pt jumpshot, even if open, just isn't a very good shot unless you're Kevin Durant or Kawhi Leonard.

Or *ahem* Leaonna Odom. If you haven't watched the women play, you need to see Leaonna shoot sometime. She can't hit the three at all (at least not in games), but she has the sweetest 12-15' mid-range jumper you can find in the women's game.

[flyingdutchdevil]

You're right, he hasn't had the Zoubekian leap. But it's worth noting that Z's "leap" was mostly a factor of getting more minutes, while Javin has been getting fewer minutes this season.

But most of the rest of your post is incorrect. On a 40 minute basis this season, Javin has 10.8 rebounds per 40 and 6.6 fouls per 40. That's hardly "basically the same." He did have some shooting problems early this season, but if you look at his conference numbers, he's shooting 64.7% on two-point shots in conference play vs. 67.9% on twos in conference play last year. Not that big a difference. According to advanced stats, Javin has improved his rebounding, assists, turnovers, and free throw shooting, while maintaining very strong steals and blocks numbers. Even his usage is up a little.

It's hard to tell how much someone has improved when they only get in the game for 6 minutes (like Javin last night), but it's worth noting he had four rebounds and a block in those 6 minutes, and played good defense. I'm not saying he's been a superstar this season, but a lot of people around here are being way too hard on him.

I can't type today. Meant to say his rebounding and fouls are basically the exact same as last year (10.8 vs 10.7 rebounds per 40 min and 6.6 vs 6.5 fouls per 40 min). Javin's rebounding - in advanced metrics - are basically the same (14.1 vs 14.8 rebounding rate), but I agree his assists and turnovers are down (although turnovers this year are the same as his sophomore numbers).

With Zoubek, it wasn't just minutes. Zoubek was a really good rebounder during his career (12-13 per 40 min as a frosh to junior). As a senior, Zoubek increased that to 16.6!!! That's well beyond "elite" rebounding. And this whilst playing significantly more minutes per game.

[CDu]

This is almost astonishing. I mean I am sure they all have played zone in their lives at some point, but for this year's team to coalesce that quickly is really cool. Imagine what a practice or two will do. I'm talkin' 'bout practice man...practice....:cool:

It's almost certainly not true though. We've played zone multiple times already this year, including before halftime last night. I think maybe he was saying they didn't practice it at all before the State game, or even in the week leading up to the State game. But I can't imagine that we'd play a defense multiple times this year without having practiced it at all this season.

[killerleft]

Please stop, you guys. You guys talk like Javin can't hit a layup, can't get a rebound, and can't play defense. NONE of that is true.

Yeah, Javin missed a layup last night. He missed a dunk vs. UVa. But for his career, Javin has hit 73.2% of his shots at the rim. That's actually amazing. For comparison's sake, Vernon Carey has hit 64.9% of his shots at the rim (in the same ballpark of attempts as Javin's career). Javin is a significantly better rebounder than Justin and a significantly better defender. If you go "eye on" Javin during a defensive possession, he's everywhere. He's our best help defender, he's the main defensive communicator when he's out there, he's our best hedge-and-recover guy on PNR.

Justin was great last night, and great against Wake, but giving Javin's minutes to Justin is not the answer moving forward.

Yep. Too many people ready to jump ship on our guys if they have a rough stretch, or someone else has a good game. Javin has proved his worth. JRob has certainly shown what smarts, hustle and a sweet shot can bring the team, as well. But it isn't either/or with those two. The rotation has room for both at times.

[CDu]

Yep. Too many people ready to jump ship on our guys if they have a rough stretch, or someone else has a good game. Javin has proved his worth. JRob has certainly shown what smarts, hustle and a sweet shot can bring the team, as well. But it isn't either/or with those two. The rotation has room for both at times.

Yeah, I think in aggregate DeLaurier is the better player. He offers more defensively, more rebounding, and better communication. Robinson offers more offensively provided the matchup is right. I think there will continue to be games where Robinson can be effective in a backup role. And there will be games in which Robinson's limitations make him a liability.

Basically, there aren't any players on Duke's bench who are "set it and forget it" rotation pieces. Everyone outside of the top 4-5 players is subject to slipping in and out of the lineup from game to game, because none are multidimensional players at this point. So it's a matter of "mix and match" for Coach K as it has been all season. You just hope we have the right flavor on any given night.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Agreed. I definitely have some reservations about this team's ability to defend the 3 in a zone. That said, I think it's a nice weapon to have in the quiver in the event we face a team that can really break us down with the high ball screen action. But I don't know that it is a defense we can go to exclusively with the same success that the 2018 team did.

That's because there isn't that much length on the team compared to 2018. Tre's wingspan is 6'4"; Goldwire's isn't disclosed but likely between 6'2" and 6'5". Stanley's is 6'6" (draftexpress) and Hurt's is 6'9" (same as his height). Only Moore has a truly impressive wingspan at 6'11".

That 2018 team had a 6'9" wingspaned Duval with a 6'6" wingspaned Allen and a 6'8.5" winspaned Trent Jr. Couple that with Bagley's impressive 7'1" winspan and Bolden's Duke best 7'6" wingspan, and that is a stupidly long team.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Yeah, I think in aggregate DeLaurier is the better player. He offers more defensively, more rebounding, and better communication. Robinson offers more offensively provided the matchup is right. I think there will continue to be games where Robinson can be effective in a backup role. And there will be games in which Robinson's limitations make him a liability.

Basically, there aren't any players on Duke's bench who are "set it and forget it" rotation pieces. Everyone outside of the top 4-5 players is subject to slipping in and out of the lineup from game to game, because none are multidimensional players at this point. So it's a matter of "mix and match" for Coach K as it has been all season. You just hope we have the right flavor on any given night.

DeLaurier is definitely the better player. 4 years of the coaching staff watching these players in practice should and seeing how that translates to playing time should confirm that.

But DeLaurier is also frustrating to watch sometimes, which is why a bunch of folks are calling for Robinson. Also, DeLaurier is incapable to shooting outside of 4 feet. Robinson is basically a 3pt shooter and a dunker, which offers better offensive diversity to the naked eye.

And to the bolded point, this team is filled with 1-dimensional players. There is a reason Tre, Carey, and Cassius are the only consistencies in the endless rotation of starting line-ups; everyone else is either good on defense or good on offense. I think Moore has the opportunity to join that list, but he still has a long way to go.

[killerleft]

Yeah, I think in aggregate DeLaurier is the better player. He offers more defensively, more rebounding, and better communication. Robinson offers more offensively provided the matchup is right. I think there will continue to be games where Robinson can be effective in a backup role. And there will be games in which Robinson's limitations make him a liability.

Basically, there aren't any players on Duke's bench who are "set it and forget it" rotation pieces. Everyone outside of the top 4-5 players is subject to slipping in and out of the lineup from game to game, because none are multidimensional players at this point. So it's a matter of "mix and match" for Coach K as it has been all season. You just hope we have the right flavor on any given night.

I agree with the bolded. This is a strange team. Not many jacks-of-all-trade (is that correct grammar?). Coach K has his hands full trying to get the right combination out there when the game is on the line.

[rsvman]

I agree with the bolded. This is a strange team. Not many jacks-of-all-trade (is that correct grammar?). Coach K has his hands full trying to get the right combination out there when the game is on the line.

It's close. Since the singular saying is "Jack of all trades," the plural would be "Jacks of all trades."


Have to admit that I have never heard or seen anyone try to pluralize Jack of all trades, though.

[Tripping William]

It's close. Since the singular saying is "Jack of all trades," the plural would be "Jacks of all trades."


Have to admit that I have never heard or seen anyone try to pluralize Jack of all trades, though.

I'd settle for one fully healthy, fully functioning Jack. :o

[ncexnyc]

It would be nice if people would be honest when attempting to make a point. Cherry picking certain stats might fool some people, but it doesn't work with everyone.

When discussing Zoubek, it's easy to talk about his progression being tied to more minutes, but how about we discuss the reason his minutes were limited. Let's talk about a kid who had numerous injuries during his career and was playing with a steel shank in his shoe. I'm sorry, but you just can't compare Zoubek to another player who's career hasn't been hampered by serious injury.

A player like Carey needs room to operate and in a perfect world Hurt would be the player best suited to compliment Vernon, but at this point in time Hurt doesn't have the physical tools to be the 4 to pair with Vernon. Maybe switching to a zone will help hide those deficiencies and that is something we can keep an eye on, but I can tell you this, it certainly isn't Javin. Justin's skill set compliments that of Vernon's and if we continue to use line-ups that run into scoring droughts a player like Justin is necessary.

We saw what Justin did for us at Wake and we saw it again last night. Now compare that with what happened Saturday and you can see why Justin needs to get Javin's minutes.

[killerleft]

I'd settle for one fully healthy, fully functioning Jack. :o

I'll drink to that!

[House P]

Looking at the boxscore, I noticed that the final score of last night's game, 88-69, was almost the same as the score of the first State game, 88-66. The only difference* is that that the final digit was flipped upside down.

Another thing that stood out to me is that the trio of Markell Johnson, Devon Daniels, and DJ Funderburke combined to shoot 7-9 from three in the first game. Last night they shot a combined 0-9 from three. Considering that this trio has shot a combined 28% (71-255) from three for the year, it was good to see Duke benefit from some regression to the mean last night.

Now, as long as Christian Keeling, Garrison Brooks, and Justin Pierce experience a similar regression with their mid-range shooting on Saturday, we should be OK.




*other than which team won, of course.

[camion]

I love JRob and pull for him to do well, but it is possible that he doesn't get a lot of playing time because he is long and lean, very lean. The roster at goduke has him listed at 202 lbs. That's undersized (weight) for a 4 or 5.

[devildeac]

I'll drink to that!

Wrong thread...

:rolleyes:;)

[Kedsy]

We saw what Justin did for us at Wake and we saw it again last night. Now compare that with what happened Saturday and you can see why Justin needs to get Javin's minutes.

Do you honestly think Justin would have been able to score at all against Virginia? Do you honestly think he can play defense even half as well as Javin?

This is like everyone clamoring for the backup quarterback in football.

[FerryFor50]

Do you honestly think Justin would have been able to score at all against Virginia? Do you honestly think he can play defense even half as well as Javin?

This is like everyone clamoring for the backup quarterback in football.

Agreed. It feels very short sighted to rest our hopes of this season on the shoulders of a kid who couldn't sniff the floor other than mop up duty for most of his 4 years.

What JRob *does* bring is a hunger you don't get by playing all the time. He really puts the effort in when he's out there, like it's the last time he's going to play this season. Guys like AOC and Baker should take note.

That said, if we're going to see more zone, I think it actually helps guys like AOC and Baker, because I think they're much more effective defenders at the top of the zone than playing a switching man to man defense. They have good length, and AOC has a knack for reading passing lanes.

Before they zoned NCSU, I was wondering why they hadn't gone zone sooner against teams that were carving up the man to man and abusing Carey/Delaurier on the switches.

Hopefully they use it going forward.

[flyingdutchdevil]

It may be me, but I don't really see JRob and Javin competing for minutes. For one, the team has spacing issues when Javin and Carey are on the floor. Carey is not a jump shooter (only shoots when completely wide open) and Javin can't hit the backside of a barn outside of 4 feet. JRob, on the other hand, is a competent outside shooter. He can play with either Javin or Carey, making him a choice at the 4 (maybe not first, second, or third choice). With the way Hurt is NOT showing toughness, I'd like to see a little more JRob starting to take Hurt minutes until Hurt battles a little more. I'm not suggesting playing JRob more minutes, but I am suggesting using JRob as a motivator-for-minutes for Hurt.

[uh_no]

Agreed. It feels very short sighted to rest our hopes of this season on the shoulders of a kid who couldn't sniff the floor other than mop up duty for most of his 4 years.

What JRob *does* bring is a hunger you don't get by playing all the time. He really puts the effort in when he's out there, like it's the last time he's going to play this season. Guys like AOC and Baker should take note.

That said, if we're going to see more zone, I think it actually helps guys like AOC and Baker, because I think they're much more effective defenders at the top of the zone than playing a switching man to man defense. They have good length, and AOC has a knack for reading passing lanes.

Before they zoned NCSU, I was wondering why they hadn't gone zone sooner against teams that were carving up the man to man and abusing Carey/Delaurier on the switches.

Hopefully they use it going forward.

we'd have at least 2 fewer losses if we had thrown up a zone for even a few minutes while we were getting carved up.

[FerryFor50]

we'd have at least 2 fewer losses if we had thrown up a zone for even a few minutes while we were getting carved up.

Definitely.

And I'd argue that the NCSU game at PNC would have been competitive had they zoned early on.

[dukelifer]

I love JRob and pull for him to do well, but it is possible that he doesn't get a lot of playing time because he is long and lean, very lean. The roster at goduke has him listed at 202 lbs. That's undersized (weight) for a 4 or 5.

Hmmm- he seems bigger than that. That is 10 lbs heavier than Brandon Ingram. That is 12 lbs lighter than Hurt and 5 lbs lighter than Baker.

[Lurkingdukedog]

When Javin missed yet another layup in the first half last night I said a few words that the wankerizer would find objectionable.

Remember what Coach K said at a press conference a few weeks back -- Javin was shooting near the basket rather than looking to score. I also think that was Vernon's issue at the end of the Virginia Game -- he was looking to shoot rather than looking to score. Vernon did more scoring in the 2nd half of last night (and Cassius certainly did, too)

[jv001]

we'd have at least 2 fewer losses if we had thrown up a zone for even a few minutes while we were getting carved up.

"Must spread those sporkz". I think you are right in this assumption but there's no way to be sure.

GoDuke!

[DukieInBrasil]

Do you honestly think Justin would have been able to score at all against Virginia? Do you honestly think he can play defense even half as well as Javin?
This is like everyone clamoring for the backup quarterback in football.
Although JRob is not the best 3pt shooter on the team (?) he is tall, and can shoot over many defenders. It would have only taken 1 3pt shot to change that game, so yes, i do honestly think he would have been able to score. Which is of course different from actually scoring. Also, if K had switched to zone vs UVA JRob would have been a perfectly legit defensive option.


we'd have at least 2 fewer losses if we had thrown up a zone for even a few minutes while we were getting carved up.
As i mentioned in another thread, K's stubborness has cost this team at least a win or two, just like in 2014. It seemed like he had learned something when allowed the 2015 team to play some zone to get their confidence back. He's used it since when teams showed they couldn't defend in M2M. His lack of trust in using the zone when called for cost Duke a shot at the #1 seed in the ACCT, possibly the "ACC Regular Season Title" and maybe a #1 seed in the NCAAT. This is not to say that it's too late for this team to accomplish some great things, nor that it K turned to the zone too late to get benefit from it, just that his stubbornness to use a tool that has been proven to work before really cost the team.


Remember what Coach K said at a press conference a few weeks back -- Javin was shooting near the basket rather than looking to score. I also think that was Vernon's issue at the end of the Virginia Game -- he was looking to shoot rather than looking to score. Vernon did more scoring in the 2nd half of last night (and Cassius certainly did, too)
When receiving passes down low, while stationary and/or guarded Javin has an allergy to going up strong a) without bringing the ball down to give the opponent a chance to steal it b) right away c) for the dunk, and often settles for weird, weak, off-balance, easily blocked lay-ups. Javin scores very efficiently in other situations, but it has been a huge frustration to watch him not learn how to be aggressive withe ball down low over his 4 years at Duke.

[jv001]

Remember what Coach K said at a press conference a few weeks back -- Javin was shooting near the basket rather than looking to score. I also think that was Vernon's issue at the end of the Virginia Game -- he was looking to shoot rather than looking to score. Vernon did more scoring in the 2nd half of last night (and Cassius certainly did, too)

Since Coach K and Kedsy won't let me say anything negative about Javin :cool:, I'll just add this: I like Javin and think he's a good young man who has tried to improve over his four years. I don't get to see him practice as Coach does, so I can't make even make an educated guess as to how he performs in those sessions. All I get to see is the games. I think it's a fair to say that Javin doesn't have the best hands, body control, or a shot outside 2 feet. He seems to have improved his foul shooting and has cut down on his fouling. Now I don't have the shooting or rebounding per 40 minutes for J-Rob, but I would think his numbers would be similar to Javin's numbers. I'm with FDD in thinking there are some minutes for both players and I hope Javin plays lights out for the rest of the season. It is indeed his senior year and I think he deserves the chance to go out with a good game against the Cheats. But J-Rob is a senior as well and I think he deserves the same chance as Javin. However, winning the game is most important. So, we'll see how it pans out and I hope we beat the snot out of the cheats. GTHC!!!!!!

GoDuke!

[CajunDevil]

Agreed. It feels very short sighted to rest our hopes of this season on the shoulders of a kid who couldn't sniff the floor other than mop up duty for most of his 4 years.

What JRob *does* bring is a hunger you don't get by playing all the time. He really puts the effort in when he's out there, like it's the last time he's going to play this season. Guys like AOC and Baker should take note.
.

I agree about JRob - his minutes are gravy. As for effort, I don't think anyone can legitimately criticize Baker's effort. Yes, his defense needs work but the effort is always there.

[Saratoga2]

Most likely, they would, though. We went through this in the 2018 season when we went to zone full-time (not that I necessarily believe Coach K will repeat history with this team). We basically left the FT area open every game, and opponents could not hit that shot efficiently enough to stop Duke's defensive ranking from soaring towards the top. The 2-pt jumpshot, even if open, just isn't a very good shot unless you're Kevin Durant or Kawhi Leonard.

The 2018 team also became great at defending the 3-pt shot after the switch to zone. That might end up being the difference and why this team can't use zone long-term. We just don't have the size of the 2018 team -- not up front, and not on the wings. So, I'm not sure this zone will end up defending the 3 well.

I guess JRobs revelations begs the question. Why didn't we practice zone knowing we had a problem defending the high ball screen?

[rsvman]

I guess JRobs revelations begs the question. Why didn't we practice zone knowing we had a problem defending the high ball screen?

I generally enjoy and agree with most of your posts, and I understand/agree with the sentiment of this one.

But I can't stop myself from being "that guy" again. Everybody uses "begs the question" or "begging the question" incorrectly. I think eventually usage will just change, so that your usage will be accepted as correct, but for now, that's not what "beg the question" means.

It refers to when an argument assumes the truth of a conclusion, so it's a form of circular reasoning. It stems from classic rhetorical teachings, and arose from a mistranslation of petitio principii, which means assuming the initial point. More discussion at the link, for anybody that's interested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question



You may now return to your regularly scheduled basketball conversation. <hangs head in shame> I should really look into getting help for this inability to let stuff like this go.

[weezie]

SHAME ring ring ring ring SHAME ring ring ring ring

[TKG]

As i mentioned in another thread, K's stubborness has cost this team at least a win or two, just like in 2014. It seemed like he had learned something when allowed the 2015 team to play some zone to get their confidence back. He's used it since when teams showed they couldn't defend in M2M. His lack of trust in using the zone when called for cost Duke a shot at the #1 seed in the ACCT, possibly the "ACC Regular Season Title" and maybe a #1 seed in the NCAAT. This is not to say that it's too late for this team to accomplish some great things, nor that it K turned to the zone too late to get benefit from it, just that his stubbornness to use a tool that has been proven to work before really cost the team.

Ooooooh, you’re are going to be in soooooo much trouble if K reads this post....

[Kedsy]

As i mentioned in another thread, K's stubborness has cost this team at least a win or two, just like in 2014. It seemed like he had learned something when allowed the 2015 team to play some zone to get their confidence back. He's used it since when teams showed they couldn't defend in M2M. His lack of trust in using the zone when called for cost Duke a shot at the #1 seed in the ACCT, possibly the "ACC Regular Season Title" and maybe a #1 seed in the NCAAT. This is not to say that it's too late for this team to accomplish some great things, nor that it K turned to the zone too late to get benefit from it, just that his stubbornness to use a tool that has been proven to work before really cost the team.

Maybe. Maybe not. There's no way to know. Personally, my guess is it's less than 50/50 that he cost us games by not playing zone, but that's just a guess.



When receiving passes down low, while stationary and/or guarded Javin has an allergy to going up strong a) without bringing the ball down to give the opponent a chance to steal it b) right away c) for the dunk, and often settles for weird, weak, off-balance, easily blocked lay-ups. Javin scores very efficiently in other situations, but it has been a huge frustration to watch him not learn how to be aggressive withe ball down low over his 4 years at Duke.

Blocked shots count as missed shots. I repeat that Javin has successfully converted more than 73% of his shots at the rim, which is better than every other Duke player (with more than 15 career attempts at the rim) not named Zion during the past four seasons. So, I'd say it may seem like he gets his shot blocked all the time, or put up weak layups that don't go in, but it doesn't happen nearly as often as you think.


Now I don't have the shooting or rebounding per 40 minutes for J-Rob, but I would think his numbers would be similar to Javin's numbers.

It's hard to say, since Justin has played so little and except for the past couple games has only played against end-of-the-bench players. That said, Justin has yet to take a two-point jumper in his Duke career, and has only taken 15 career shots at the rim, the vast majority (maybe all) of them dunks. On those shots, he is 13 for 15 (87%), which in fact is higher than Javin's career 73%. Again, whether it would still be higher against better competition is up for debate.

As for rebounding, again with the caveat that Justin might be a better rebounder than his stats, due to low sample size (though I guess he might also be worse, you never know), Justin is not nearly as good a rebounder as Javin. This season, Javin's OR% is 10.0% and his DR% is 19.4%, while Justin's percentages are 8.6 OR% and 14.0 DR%. For their careers, Javin is 12.1%/17.9% while Justin is 3.9%/13.3%.


I'm with FDD in thinking there are some minutes for both players and I hope Javin plays lights out for the rest of the season.

I agree, on both counts.

[ncexnyc]

Do you honestly think Justin would have been able to score at all against Virginia? Do you honestly think he can play defense even half as well as Javin?

This is like everyone clamoring for the backup quarterback in football.

Well that's a really silly question. Of course I believe Justin would have been able to score against UVA and yes, I do think Justin is capable of playing defense, especially if we are going with two bigs on the floor at the same time whether in a zone or M2M.

And maybe you've forgotten this, but Steve Young and Tom Brady were backup QB's at one time.

[Utley]

my angle was effectively perpendicular to the ray from the center of the ball to the hoop when cassius grabbed it...so from my perspective, it was as par away as it could possibly seem.

When the pass was thrown, several things went through my head in quick successions:

- oh stanley is over there, he should throw the lob
- ah crap, he way overthrew it
- da heck? stanley is going up for it?
- that is going to get tipped into the crowd for sure

At that point, my brain turned into some sort of goop, because the next part of my memory is me squatting on the ground with my hands on top of my head screaming like a lunatic.

Zion's 360 tomahawk last year was one thing...but this broke me. There is no amount of rationality to what happened on that play. The replays don't do justice to what I saw.

This is just about perfect. I sat behind the band. I am not good enough at geometry to know if that was near you - but I had the exact same experience - including the goop brain. Totally went from oh no Wendell throw it away to there’s no way that just happened. I think goop brain was contagious - our whole section wasn’t right for a couple minutes.

[Utley]

I get that I am late here and the Board has likely moved from the reaction phase to the more analysis but here’s my belated reaction post.

This was one of the most surreal games I have ever seen in Cameron. Forgotten in the euphoria was what seemed like 15 of the most pitiful home minutes I have seen us play. I thought the team just looked scared - everything and everyone was tight and tentative. I think State really missed some chances to knock us out early.

Things started to change with the zone but more from the surprise of it than us zoning particularly well. Several players - Hurt and Moore come to mind just seemed lost and the zone lacked energy and moment.

J Rob really started to turn the tide - I am not sure if this is right but it seemed at some point that our two lowest ranked recruits were our
leading scorers.

Second half was equally crazy. I don’t know what happened but all the songs in Cameron seemed to be played out of order - and there were a few I couldn’t even recognize. This maybe the worst Blue Devil surfing the court I have ever seen. And it all ended with K high fiving the crazies - something I don’t ever remember (and why you would choose the Coronavirus time to begin all this extra touching is beyond me).

Oh yeah - the second half basketball was incredible. Did we miss on O? Where does Cassius’s 2nd dunk rank in Cameron history? Had to be the dunk of the year at a minimum. The zone seemed to actually effective - I thought Jordan in particular was everywhere. Most importantly we regained our swagger - the lack thereof being one of the key weaknesses of this team. I think if Cassius, Matt, maybe even Joey just realized how good they were and played that way - we are Final 4 good.

I don’t know where we go from here - I am ready for anything - but this was one fun night and one crazy Cameron.

[DukeDevilDeb]

It's almost certainly not true though. We've played zone multiple times already this year, including before halftime last night. I think maybe he was saying they didn't practice it at all before the State game, or even in the week leading up to the State game. But I can't imagine that we'd play a defense multiple times this year without having practiced it at all this season.

You are probably right. He definitely said that they hadn't practiced zone at all during preparation for the last 3 games. The short spurts of zone we've played indicates to me that it hasn't been a routine part of our defensive armamentarium, and the response it evoked both in State and in our guys makes it a worthwhile alternative for tough game situations where we need a shot in the arm.

Everyone kept saying that we needed a third scorer: Carey and Jones and ... We got the third scorer last night and it was the whole blinking team! I loved looking at the scoreboard at one point and seeing that every player on the floor at that moment had a scoring total in double digits.

This game felt much truer to the style Duke 2020 had been using earlier. I don't know what to say about Alex and Jack who never even saw the floor. Hurt was not successful in his few minutes; neither was Joey. We can argue about Javin's contributions for the rest of March but not come to a conclusion. The kid has great heart and his propensity for 5 fouls and out has gotten a little better this year. But he started last night and got a total of 6 minutes, 0 points, 4 rebounds, 1 block and 1 turnover.

We had 6 guys score in double figures ... when was the last time we saw this? Maybe the Notre Dame game where Carey had 21, and Tre, Hurt and Alex were in double figures, and Jordan and Joey missing double figures by 2 point for Joey and 1 for Jordan.

We don't need a third scorer... IMHO we need everyone who is playing to score, rebound, play defense, cause turnovers... this team doesn't live by the three or die by the three; it lives by the team effort and dies when that doesn't happen.

I just hope we can all do our happy dances again on Saturday! Go Devils!

[jv001]

It's hard to say, since Justin has played so little and except for the past couple games has only played against end-of-the-bench players. That said, Justin has yet to take a two-point jumper in his Duke career, and has only taken 15 career shots at the rim, the vast majority (maybe all) of them dunks. On those shots, he is 13 for 15 (87%), which in fact is higher than Javin's career 73%. Again, whether it would still be higher against better competition is up for debate.

As for rebounding, again with the caveat that Justin might be a better rebounder than his stats, due to low sample size (though I guess he might also be worse, you never know), Justin is not nearly as good a rebounder as Javin. This season, Javin's OR% is 10.0% and his DR% is 19.4%, while Justin's percentages are 8.6 OR% and 14.0 DR%. For their careers, Javin is 12.1%/17.9% while Justin is 3.9%/13.3%.



I agree, on both counts.

Maybe J-Rob will play the part of Freddie Lind this Saturday or maybe for the rest of the season. A Duke fan can hope can't he. :cool:

GoDuke!

[DU82]

Maybe J-Rob will play the part of Freddie Lind this Saturday or maybe for the rest of the season. A Duke fan can hope can't he. :cool:

GoDuke!

As much as I like and admire Freddy, I’d rather have JRob act like MP1, with a lob dunk to make the score 82-40.

[Steven43]

Do you honestly think Justin would have been able to score at all against Virginia? Do you honestly think he can play defense even half as well as Javin?

This is like everyone clamoring for the backup quarterback in football.

I don’t know. Is it really so farfetched to think Robinson would have made a 3-pointer or two against Virginia? I know for certain Javin did not and likely will not the next time Duke plays UVA.

[Kedsy]

I don’t know. Is it really so farfetched to think Robinson would have made a 3-pointer or two against Virginia? I know for certain Javin did not and likely will not the next time Duke plays UVA.

Virginia defends the three really well (17th lowest opposing 3pt% in the country, at 29.2%). Justin has taken only 15 three-attempts this season (he's made five, including the crazy bounce one against State). How many of those 15 three-attempts (or certainly how many of the five makes) weren't wide open, nobody near him attempts? Probably not too many. Justin is a decent, good-for-a-big-man, but not great three-point shooter, with a fairly slow release. Since I think it unlikely that Virginia would have left him wide open, I think the odds would have been against him hitting a shot. Not impossible, of course, but it's not impossible that Javin would hit one the next time, either (even if less likely; he had one three-attempt in the Virginia game, when Alex passed him the ball at the three-point line with one second left on the shot clock, but even in that difficult situation, the shot wasn't a total heave).

In any event, I strongly doubt Robinson would have scored more points than Javin (who, after all, was our 3rd leading scorer against UVa, with 6 points) did in that game.

[DukieInBrasil]

Blocked shots count as missed shots. I repeat that Javin has successfully converted more than 73% of his shots at the rim, which is better than every other Duke player (with more than 15 career attempts at the rim) not named Zion during the past four seasons. So, I'd say it may seem like he gets his shot blocked all the time, or put up weak layups that don't go in, but it doesn't happen nearly as often as you think.


which is why i mentioned a very specific type of play, and very specifically not say "all the time" nor that i think it happens "often", and also mentioned that he is very efficient on other types of plays. When he catches the ball while stationary, and/or guarded, Javin does not go up strong withe ball quickly. Quite often this actually leads to no shot being taken whatsoever since the moment of hesitation will cause enough defenders to come to him that Javin will (correctly) decide to pass out rather than shoot.
I'm not saying Javin could be as good as Antwan Jamison, but AJ was masterful at going up strong and quickly, and he burned Duke for like 35 points once while having the ball in his hands for a grand total of like 90 seconds on offense. I'm sure the Duke staff has worked with Javin on this concept, and he may have improved some over his 4 years at Duke, but Javin's natural reaction is to hesitate, which is a shame because he's got the size and athleticism to be a reasonably effective post player.

[Lurkingdukedog]

Things started to change with the zone but more from the surprise of it than us zoning particularly well. Several players - Hurt and Moore come to mind just seemed lost and the zone lacked energy and moment.

I went back and looked at the "highlights" compilation that was posted on the Front page and I think I have to disagree. Both Matt and Wendell played hard and with passion. I don't think they were lost, I just think they're still figuring things out. Both made some bone-headed plays and both made some really nice plays (Matt made a spin move, finished + 1 early in. Wendell had a great coast to coast finish early in as well.



I don’t know where we go from here - I am ready for anything - but this was one fun night and one crazy Cameron.

With you here. Ready for anything

[MrPoon]

What is particularly interesting for me about this zone is how K stated that they didn’t even practice it.
And it showed. The zone wasn’t so much a good zone as it was NCState completely confused.

But what would be the optimum zone? To me it involves Hurt and his length.
This is where it gets interesting, Goldwire played very well, his attacking drives really surprised me (and he finished those drives!). But I don’t think a zone is going to function well with two smaller guards at the top. Tre isn’t coming out.
So to me, you have Carey, Moore, Stanley, Tre and Hurt as your zone starters. That offers a larger team (something that doesn’t matter in the NBA but is important in NCAA) and has better offensive spacing. Perhaps we see that against UNC.

But I also don’t think zone is the long term destiny of this team. Tre is too good on ball, as is Moore, Goldwire, Javin and Stanley. The problem is Carey, Hurt and Baker.
AOC is a conundrum on D but that is for another time. The question is how does Duke build the best line up for offices and D. Its a balance K has struggled with this year.

[Reddevil]

What is particularly interesting for me about this zone is how K stated that they didn’t even practice it.
And it showed. The zone wasn’t so much a good zone as it was NCState completely confused.

But what would be the optimum zone? To me it involves Hurt and his length.
This is where it gets interesting, Goldwire played very well, his attacking drives really surprised me (and he finished those drives!). But I don’t think a zone is going to function well with two smaller guards at the top. Tre isn’t coming out.
So to me, you have Carey, Moore, Stanley, Tre and Hurt as your zone starters. That offers a larger team (something that doesn’t matter in the NBA but is important in NCAA) and has better offensive spacing. Perhaps we see that against UNC.

But I also don’t think zone is the long term destiny of this team. Tre is too good on ball, as is Moore, Goldwire, Javin and Stanley. The problem is Carey, Hurt and Baker.
AOC is a conundrum on D but that is for another time. The question is how does Duke build the best line up for offices and D. Its a balance K has struggled with this year.

Teach Carey how to hedge and withdraw. Stop switching Tre and Carey. That is killing them. Tre gets posted up and Carey gets blown by. This alone would really improve their chances. I know - easier said than done, and I am sure they realize this. I am just selfishly tired of yelling at the TV.
Nothing against K (at all of course - look at the ceiling!), but it would be cool if Battier would come in and demonstrate proper techniques.

[mkirsh]

I guess JRobs revelations begs the question. Why didn't we practice zone knowing we had a problem defending the high ball screen?

I assume the staff decided it would be better to use the practice time to improve the M2M rather than install a zone, but that obviously didn't work.

I also wonder if part of the high ball screen issue is due to Tre carrying so much of the load this season, on both offense and defense and in terms of total minutes. It seemed that earlier in the year Duke was playing drop coverage on the high ball screen and Tre was fighting over screens, but now he seems to be getting stuck on them more. Combine that with Carey's poor positioning and it's a recipe for the offense to get whatever it wants. I wonder if Coach K will go to the zone more, switch the M2M to hedge and recover (Javin mostly does this), or try to get Carey and Tre back to early season form. Personally I would rather see Carey set up deeper/closer to the basket on his drop and have Tre fight over screens, and concede the pick-and-pop to Carey's man until he proves he can make it, but I don't have any banners to show anyone and my input has not been requested by the coaching staff.

[Edouble]

I assume the staff decided it would be better to use the practice time to improve the M2M rather than install a zone, but that obviously didn't work.

I also wonder if part of the high ball screen issue is due to Tre carrying so much of the load this season, on both offense and defense and in terms of total minutes. It seemed that earlier in the year Duke was playing drop coverage on the high ball screen and Tre was fighting over screens, but now he seems to be getting stuck on them more. Combine that with Carey's poor positioning and it's a recipe for the offense to get whatever it wants. I wonder if Coach K will go to the zone more, switch the M2M to hedge and recover (Javin mostly does this), or try to get Carey and Tre back to early season form. Personally I would rather see Carey set up deeper/closer to the basket on his drop and have Tre fight over screens, and concede the pick-and-pop to Carey's man until he proves he can make it, but I don't have any banners to show anyone and my input has not been requested by the coaching staff.

I'd love to see us switch defenses within the game to mess with the other team. Switch between zone and M2M and within M2M, ice screens, switch on screens, and sometimes DON'T switch on screens. I can only imagine how flummoxed an opposing guard would get if Vernon switches onto him on one possession but Tre goes under the screen the next time around.

I can not take a post season loss watching Tre and Vernon switching on screens for a whole game, with the opponent feasting.

[UrinalCake]

Teach Carey how to hedge and withdraw. Stop switching Tre and Carey. That is killing them. Tre gets posted up and Carey gets blown by. This alone would really improve their chances. I know - easier said than done, and I am sure they realize this.

Carey should watch tape of Zoubek in 2010 - not a quick player at all, but always knew exactly when to come off of that hedge and get back to his man. He never got switched onto a guard. Of course, it took him four years to learn this so maybe it’s asking too much for Carey to do what looks fairly straightforward from my spot on the couch, but I’m sure is very difficult in real life.

[jimsumner]

Teach Carey how to hedge and withdraw. Stop switching Tre and Carey. That is killing them. Tre gets posted up and Carey gets blown by. This alone would really improve their chances. I know - easier said than done, and I am sure they realize this. I am just selfishly tired of yelling at the TV.
Nothing against K (at all of course - look at the ceiling!), but it would be cool if Battier would come in and demonstrate proper techniques.

Yelling at the TV is okay. Just as long as it doesn't yell back. :)

[Wahoo2000]

Carey should watch tape of Zoubek in 2010 - not a quick player at all, but always knew exactly when to come off of that hedge and get back to his man. He never got switched onto a guard. Of course, it took him four years to learn this so maybe it’s asking too much for Carey to do what looks fairly straightforward from my spot on the couch, but I’m sure is very difficult in real life.

The hedge and recover skill is typically one of the 2 toughest things for bigs in our (UVA) system to master, and they do it ALL the time. K is probably well aware that it's likely an unsuccessful strategy to attempt it with Carey at a)this stage of his career, and b)this late in the season.

Honestly, I don't see why you guys wouldn't play more 2-3 with aggressive, quick, and athletic guys out top (Jones and Goldwire) and on the outsides along the baseline (Moore and Stanley) with Carey in the middle. I really think that D can force an absolute TON of midrange 2s which is a pretty good recipe for success. I guess you sacrifice the intense ball pressure in the backcourt that disrupts other teams running their offense, and would also probably lead to less FORCED turnovers. May or may not also impact the Dreb% (which isn't stellar to begin with), but it really seems you'd be giving up MUCH worse shots to opponents on average (either late/forced deep 3s, forced drives into heavy traffic/congestion near the rim, or 12-18 foot jumpers).

I think K will continue to implement that zone as a compliment to the usual M2M pressure. But when the above lineup is in, if they're having ANY trouble on D at all, switching to that 2-3 seems like a no-brainer.

[CDu]

The hedge and recover skill is typically one of the 2 toughest things for bigs in our (UVA) system to master, and they do it ALL the time. K is probably well aware that it's likely an unsuccessful strategy to attempt it with Carey at a)this stage of his career, and b)this late in the season.

Honestly, I don't see why you guys wouldn't play more 2-3 with aggressive, quick, and athletic guys out top (Jones and Goldwire) and on the outsides along the baseline (Moore and Stanley) with Carey in the middle. I really think that D can force an absolute TON of midrange 2s which is a pretty good recipe for success. I guess you sacrifice the intense ball pressure in the backcourt that disrupts other teams running their offense, and would also probably lead to less FORCED turnovers. May or may not also impact the Dreb% (which isn't stellar to begin with), but it really seems you'd be giving up MUCH worse shots to opponents on average (either late/forced deep 3s, forced drives into heavy traffic/congestion near the rim, or 12-18 foot jumpers).

I think K will continue to implement that zone as a compliment to the usual M2M pressure. But when the above lineup is in, if they're having ANY trouble on D at all, switching to that 2-3 seems like a no-brainer.

I agree. I don't think Carey is going to suddenly get good (or even adequate) at handling high ball screens at this point. So, much like in 2018 when they switched to the 2-3 because Carter and Bagley were bad at it, I think we'll see the zone brought in on an as-needed basis. The biggest things that it can do are (1) keep Carey in the paint where he is comfortable defensively and (2) keep Carey out of foul trouble. The first will really help the team defensively, and the second will help defensively.

But I doubt it becomes our full-time defense. I think it will just be the crutch to use in cases where teams are really picking us apart with the high ball screens. I think we'll try to play man with pressure defense to force turnovers as much as we can, and then switch to zone only as needed.

[TruBlu]

Yelling at the TV is okay. Just as long as it doesn't yell back. :)

If Dickie V is calling the game, the TV will most assuredly yell back.

[jimsumner]

If Dickie V is calling the game, the TV will most assuredly yell back.

If Bill Walton is calling the game it will yell back with clouds of smoke. :)

[indy1duke]

Teach Carey how to hedge and withdraw. Stop switching Tre and Carey. That is killing them. Tre gets posted up and Carey gets blown by. This alone would really improve their chances. I know - easier said than done, and I am sure they realize this. I am just selfishly tired of yelling at the TV.
Nothing against K (at all of course - look at the ceiling!), but it would be cool if Battier would come in and demonstrate proper techniques.

I could not agree more, particularly against UVa where Clark doesn’t appear to be a quick or lethal three point shooter. Dare him to shoot the three and keep Tre on him by going under the screen. Keep Carey on Huff who is no threat to drive on him. Keep playing it that way until Clark proves his outside shot. It also reduces Carey’s propensity to foul.

[jv001]

I agree. I don't think Carey is going to suddenly get good (or even adequate) at handling high ball screens at this point. So, much like in 2018 when they switched to the 2-3 because Carter and Bagley were bad at it, I think we'll see the zone brought in on an as-needed basis. The biggest things that it can do are (1) keep Carey in the paint where he is comfortable defensively and (2) keep Carey out of foul trouble. The first will really help the team defensively, and the second will help defensively.

But I doubt it becomes our full-time defense. I think it will just be the crutch to use in cases where teams are really picking us apart with the high ball screens. I think we'll try to play man with pressure defense to force turnovers as much as we can, and then switch to zone only as needed.

Maybe my eyes were failing me but I thought Tre was aggressively fighting through the picks at the beginning of the year but is now just switching easily. I don't know if the coaching staff has told him to play the pnr that way, but it's not working. It's going to be interesting to see what Coach K has up his sleeve for the cheat game.

GoDuke!

[Highlander]

Teach Carey how to hedge and withdraw. Stop switching Tre and Carey. That is killing them. Tre gets posted up and Carey gets blown by. This alone would really improve their chances. I know - easier said than done, and I am sure they realize this. I am just selfishly tired of yelling at the TV.
Nothing against K (at all of course - look at the ceiling!), but it would be cool if Battier would come in and demonstrate proper techniques.

Agree 100%. State was killing us in M2M off the switch on the high ball screen, and for whatever reason we kept defending (and failing at) it exactly the same way over and over. Have Carey hedge on the screen, have Tre go under for once, do SOMETHING different, because putting Carey on Johnson isn't working. Switching to the zone took this set away, and State was not disciplined enough to continually get (and make) shots against the zone. Our first possession in zone they drained a 3, but kudos to K for sticking with it a bit longer and playing the percentages. For State, it was like Pedro Cerrano suddenly trying to hit a curve ball. We started to get runouts off of missed shots and turnovers, which led to easy transition buckets, and we started attacking the rim and moving without the ball (FINALLY) on offense). It was a classic case of defense creating offense.

Did anyone else think our 2/3 look was a bit wonky in that we pushed pretty high off the baseline and were giving up the alley oop and the corner 3s pretty regularly? It effectively took away the top of the key from State, and we were willing to live with them shooting FT line jumpers. Also unusual is how well we rebounded out of the zone.

My biggest worry is that UNC just torched Syracuse's zone, and Anthony has the ability to run the pick and roll effectively. I'm not ready to go to the zone full time (yet), but if it does work to break up the high ball screen we struggle with so much, I'm all for it being in our arsenal.

[Reddevil]

Maybe it's time for K to bust out the Jimmy V triangle and two they have been secretly working on all season.

[mkirsh]

Agree 100%. State was killing us in M2M off the switch on the high ball screen, and for whatever reason we kept defending (and failing at) it exactly the same way over and over. Have Carey hedge on the screen, have Tre go under for once, do SOMETHING different, because putting Carey on Johnson isn't working. Switching to the zone took this set away, and State was not disciplined enough to continually get (and make) shots against the zone. Our first possession in zone they drained a 3, but kudos to K for sticking with it a bit longer and playing the percentages. For State, it was like Pedro Cerrano suddenly trying to hit a curve ball. We started to get runouts off of missed shots and turnovers, which led to easy transition buckets, and we started attacking the rim and moving without the ball (FINALLY) on offense). It was a classic case of defense creating offense.

Did anyone else think our 2/3 look was a bit wonky in that we pushed pretty high off the baseline and were giving up the alley oop and the corner 3s pretty regularly? It effectively took away the top of the key from State, and we were willing to live with them shooting FT line jumpers. Also unusual is how well we rebounded out of the zone.

My biggest worry is that UNC just torched Syracuse's zone, and Anthony has the ability to run the pick and roll effectively. I'm not ready to go to the zone full time (yet), but if it does work to break up the high ball screen we struggle with so much, I'm all for it being in our arsenal.

I agree with this. The analytics will show that the zone was very effective, but the eye test showed huge gaps in the zone (FT line and baseline as you mentioned) that State didn't take advantage of. I'm not ready to say we are a good zone team yet or that it should be our base defense despite the effectiveness against State.

Also, while I share your concern that Cole Anthony is a good PNR player, UNC's historical insistence on playing 2 bigs does clog the drive/roll lanes more than someone like State or Clemson that played us 5 out, which I hope limits UNC's effectiveness in trying to exploit or PNR defense.

[rsvman]

Maybe it's time for K to bust out the Jimmy V triangle and two they have been secretly working on all season.

LOL. It worked pretty well for Rick Majerus at Utah that time they went to the Final Four, too, but Coach K has shown ZERO propensity toward ever using anything that anybody would ever describe as a "junk defense."

Personally, for what it's worth (and it's not much), I believe that defensive flexibility is a plus, not a minus; meaning that even "junk defenses" are called for and work well in certain situations. Aggressive man-to-man, sagging man-to-man, pack line, 2-3 zone, 1-3-1 zone, zone press, man press, triangle and two-----they all have their time and their place. The goal of the game is to score more points than the opponent; in other words, to WIN the game. Any approach that results in that outcome is legit to me, even if somebody else calls it "junk."

[devildeac]

LOL. It worked pretty well for Rick Majerus at Utah that time they went to the Final Four, too, but Coach K has shown ZERO propensity toward ever using anything that anybody would ever describe as a "junk defense."

Personally, for what it's worth (and it's not much), I believe that defensive flexibility is a plus, not a minus; meaning that even "junk defenses" are called for and work well in certain situations. Aggressive man-to-man, sagging man-to-man, pack line, 2-3 zone, 1-3-1 zone, zone press, man press, triangle and two-----they all have their time and their place. The goal of the game is to score more points than the opponent; in other words, to WIN the game. Any approach that results in that outcome is legit to me, even if somebody else calls it "junk."

Giving up 113 points to Wake, even if it happened in 2OT, could also be referred to as "junk" defense.

:mad:

[uh_no]

Giving up 113 points to Wake, even if it happened in 2OT, could also be referred to as "junk" defense.

:mad:

28 points in 6 minutes. #NeverForget

[mgtr]

And by win out I mean through the National Championship. Let Carey do his thinh. except don'get suckered up near the top of the circle. Playmore like a bigman does in a zone. Two guards handle the ball, and feed either drivers from the side o r 3pt shooters from the side. This scheme might be great, at least for a change of pace.

[Scorp4me]

Goldwire was better than solid; he was good. He has improved so much in his ability to finish drives. Earlier in his career he had multiple embarrassingly horrendous layup attempts. His stat line from last night: 38 minutes, 11 points, 5 assists and 6 rebounds on 5 of 7 shooting with only 2 turnovers.

And yet some feel the "5th starter" is still up in the air. I just don't understand it.

[Saratoga2]

Giving up 113 points to Wake, even if it happened in 2OT, could also be referred to as "junk" defense.

:mad:

like Junk it.

[jv001]

And yet some feel the "5th starter" is still up in the air. I just don't understand it.

I'm less concerned in who starts as I do who plays effective defense and contributes on offense as well. And I would like to see that at the beginning of the game, not when we get down 10 or more points. Letting the opposing team get confidence right from the opening tip has been a biggggggg problem for most of the year. Now is the time to change that against the CHEATS.

GoDuke!

[killerleft]

like Junk it.

The Junkin defense was great for Duke Football back in the day.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

The Junkin defense was great for Duke Football back in the day.

....true....but considered to this day by some the biggest bust in Cleveland Brown draft history (and that's saying some). Never understood why he wasn't a successful pro. I guess Marty Schottenhemier wonders the same thing.

Now, back to hoops....