MBB: Duke 63, Boston College 55 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[ratamero]

3 minutes of good basketball was all it took. What a stinker.

[OldPhiKap]

Survived on the road. Next play.

[fuse]

Didn’t deserve it. Will still take it.

Thank you Joey Baker for channeling your inner Grayson Allen.

[TKG]

Glad we got THAT out of our system and maybe, just maybe, the staff can do what is necessary over the next several days to have these guys mentally prepared for Saturday.

[Tappan Zee Devil]

We coulda/shoulda lost.
Heads just were not there.


Jones won it, but Baker turned it around.

[Acymetric]

Record setting shooting performance?

[CameronDuke]

Shooting from both teams was terrible. Duke finished 1-15 from 3 but hit 16-20 free throws. Big Vern played well with 4 fouls for most of the 2nd half and finished with 17 and 10. Tre was a leader and hit big shots at crunch time as well as found DeLaurier for a nice assist near the end.

ACC road wins are always great.

19-3, 9-2 and on to unc.

[dukelifer]

Burn the tape and get ready for UNC. Holy Cow that was hard to watch. Kudos to Joey for giving a huge spark- felt a bit like Grayson Allen there for that stretch in the NC game. Tre with some strong points down the stretch- channeling Patrick Mahomes - horrible game for 3 quarters and then started to make plays. Not sure what to make of this game- other than Duke found a way to win. Take it and move on.

[Devilwin]

All the layups we left on the table..Geez. But a win is a win..

[MarkD83]

Arrggghhhhhhhh Sorry I had to get that off my chest from the in-game thread.

Survive and advance

[devildeac]

Need. More. Ymm, Beer.

[SCMatt33]

I think Duke picked a darn good night to lay an egg. This was the back end of toughest travel weekend of the year for Duke and boy did it show. Most other teams left on the schedule (and certainly those we’ll see in March) would have had Duke down 23 at the half instead of 3. The big keys were Joey Baker coming in cold and giving us some kind of spark that wasn’t Carey and the zone pressure that BC didn’t look prepared for.

Duke hasn’t had many nights with both the bad shooting bug and the low energy bug, but it was good to see the guys rally and recognize they were right there and seize the game.

[Music man55]

Thank goodness for JOEY BUCKETS! Team was lifeless until he came in,hit some big shots,and played with some fire. Tre played great down the stretch. Great win we might have lost in many other situations. Now let's go take care of the cheats!

[Saratoga2]

Same things happened here as in some of the losses. Out hustled, out rebounded, inside plugged up and we were sleep walking. I noticed Hurt didn't get back in nor did AOC or even Jack White. Coach K just didn't like what he saw. Refs swallowed their whistles, kind of a trend and much like tournament calls.

Thankfully, Joey Baker gave us 8 quick points and a nice steal, but the guy who won it for us was clearly Tre. We tightened up on defense for the last 5 minutes and Tre scored key buckets and hit important FTs at the end.

What does coach K have to do to get this team to toughen up?

We won on the road and that is what counts but lets hope we understand it wasn't pretty.

[ncexnyc]

Had I known someone was going to hand my comments about Tre's poor play to him, I would have written them much sooner:D He came up big down the stretch, which is really all that matters.

It seemed as though Coach K had fallen asleep on the bench, but low and behold he ups the pressure and goes zone and suddenly everyone seems more energized. Maybe that's what the kids needed in order to sense the urgency of the situation.

Nice to see us go back to the mix and match, but man did we really have to wait so long? Baker was a huge spark for the team and you have to wonder did that last DNP have anything to do with it?

[rsvman]

I hate to take credit, but during the in game thread I called for Joey and for the zone. Within a couple of minutes both of my wishes were granted, and we win the game.

I'll be coaching all week. 😊

[mgtr]

An ugly win is still a win. Happy to escape on the plus side.

[Troublemaker]

I said in the pregame thread that I would be satisfied with a 1-pt win (and that BC +15 was a very strong bet), so can't complain about the result.

We played 10 guys, including a resurgence by Joey (very important if we want to win in March/April, imo) and we showed some new tricks with the zone and the 2-2-1 press which impacted the game, leading to victory.

Good win. Seriously.

[Ruffdaddy]

I thought they might go to the zone when Carey got his 4th foul, and that made a big difference ... took them out of their rhythm and forced some turnovers. Never seen Carey miss so many shots around the rim.

[NYBri]

A win is a win.

9f!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[scottdude8]

Theme of the year has been different guys on different nights. Tonight was a Joey night. And boy did we need him! We don't win this game without a 10 men rotation where K can mix and match to find the hot combo.

No such thing as a bad road win.

Let's get ready for Saturday!

[Stray Gator]

Make no mistake: Road wins in the ACC are gold -- no matter the record of the opponent, no matter the aesthetics of the performance.

I'm glad that Tre Jones was unable to read all those posts in the game thread that were so relentlessly critical of his play tonight. He might have lacked the confidence to make those winning plays at crunch time, when he either scored or assisted on 12 of Duke's last 13 points, finishing as Duke's leading scorer in the game.

My take on the first 35 minutes of the game is simply that this is the price we pay for relying so heavily on freshmen -- once in a while, their performance will reflect their lack of experience and judgment playing at this level.

Next play . . .

[jv001]

Theme of the year has been different guys on different nights. Tonight was a Joey night. And boy did we need him! We don't win this game without a 10 men rotation where K can mix and match to find the hot combo.

No such thing as a bad road win.

Let's get ready for Saturday!

"Just win baby". I don't know if the beating we put on them earlier or the team was caught looking ahead to the uncheat game but the energy didn't seem to be there for most of the game. Next play and beat the cheats in the Dean Dome. Make them cry. 9F!!!

GoDuke!

[CDu]

Defense was great. Offense would have been tolerable had we not missed so many bunnies and/or open 3s. Factor that in and it is a blowout. I will take it.

[jv001]

I almost forgot, I said in another post I had rather see Goldwire shoot a 3 than a layup. He's really feeling the pressure.

GoDuke!

[jipops]

Defensive efficiency back in the top 10. I’ll just go with that.

[ChrisP]

I thought they might go to the zone when Carey got his 4th foul, and that made a big difference ... took them out of their rhythm and forced some turnovers. Never seen Carey miss so many shots around the rim get fouled so much with no calls going his way..

There, I fixed it for you :)

[du_bb1]

Need. More. Ymm, Beer.

Took your advice-Founders Backwoods Bastard- great idea ~!

[heyman25]

Joey Baker so glad you are this team.Last hope for scoring came through. Tre recovered and Vern with 4 fouls at 14:44 stayed in the game. 32 mintes of mistake laden offense.It was truly horrific. Tre carried us to victory, but hope this was a one off horror show that will not be repeated.

[mkirsh]

Moral loss

Joey B and the zone saved the game, and then Tre took over at the end

What did we miss, 10-15 lay ups? Under Armour ball?

It was a classic trap game, so take the W and on to the next one

[wsb3]

I am glad that BC is not a good team or we would have lost by 30. I think I have used the word ugly to describe college basketball games more this year than ever. Two teams combine for 3-33 from 3 point land.

Glad we won and as others have stated a conference road win is a good thing but this one does not feel like any kind of victory. Still, I will take it.

[TNTDevil]

~snip~

My take on the first 35 minutes of the game is simply that this is the price we pay for relying so heavily on freshmen -- once in a while, their performance will reflect their lack of experience and judgment playing at this level.

Next play . . .Right on.

Freshmen gonna freshmen.

[ChrisP]

I would just like to remind everyone that this is a young team (at least as far as the guys playing most of the minutes) coming off a 'Cuse game that D R A G G E D on at the end for...like...ever! Then, I believe they flew back to campus for a couple days and then flew back up north to Boston for this game. Add to that the fact that this was a classic "trap" game - i.e. on the road against a team we CRUSHED a couple weeks ago in Cameron (we won the first matchup by nearly 40!) before a super hyped game against a team that used to be worthy of being our rivals and...it's a bit easier to understand how the team struggled mentally tonight. These are college kids, not pros (and most of them aren't even "seasoned" college players yet).

That game was hard to watch but if we had shot, say...3-15 from three point range instead of 1-15 and if the refs had called even HALF the clear grabs/holds/pushes by the BC players, we'd likely have won this one by 15+ and we'd be congratulating ourselves on another tough ACC road win on a short turnaround before a ballyhooed game against a bunch of unrepentant, smarmy cheaters. I'd say that, in light of all that, we did ok - not great, but ok tonight. Next play (please!)

[jv001]

I would just like to remind everyone that this is a young team (at least as far as the guys playing most of the minutes) coming off a 'Cuse game that D R A G G E D on at the end for...like...ever! Then, I believe they flew back to campus for a couple days and then flew back up north to Boston for this game. Add to that the fact that this was a classic "trap" game - i.e. on the road against a team we CRUSHED a couple weeks ago in Cameron (we won the first matchup by nearly 40!) before a super hyped game against a team that used to be worthy of being our rivals and...it's a bit easier to understand how the team struggled mentally tonight. These are college kids, not pros (and most of them aren't even "seasoned" college players yet).

That game was hard to watch but if we had shot, say...3-15 from three point range instead of 1-15 and if the refs had called even HALF the clear grabs/holds/pushes by the BC players, we'd likely have won this one by 15+ and we'd be congratulating ourselves on another tough ACC road win on a short turnaround before a ballyhooed game against a bunch of unrepentant, smarmy cheaters. I'd say that, in light of all that, we did ok - not great, but ok tonight. Next play (please!)

I agree with your post and I'll just add: Derryck Thornton was pretty much shut down in Cameron and he could have had revenge going for him. He played very well tonight.

GoDuke!

[DukieInBrasil]

Joey Baker saved the game! Tre found what had been eluding him there in the final minutes and really closed strong. It seemed like a very physical game with lots of contact on Vernon's arms as he was shooting that didn't get called.
Javin played pretty well in his time in for Vernon, and even got the surprise bucket near the end. What a treat!
But Joey Baker, 8 pts on 3 possessions. That's pretty hot!

[Reddevil]

I hate to take credit, but during the in game thread I called for Joey and for the zone. Within a couple of minutes both of my wishes were granted, and we win the game.

I'll be coaching all week. 😊

Okay, but I get an assist. I said the team looks lethargic, K should get them to press to wake them up and get them moving. Right on queue he did it, and the final surge occurred.

[RollDevils]

Just a weird game. From the missed layups, to the extremely poor shooting, to the fumbled passes, and so on. Neither Hurt nor Stanley seemed to play much in the second half. I was also surprised to see Jack not play much in the second half. He is usually the guy you can bring in and kind of steady the ship. That easily could have been a loss so I'm happy for the win, but I feel a bit dirty about it.

[UrinalCake]

The slow starts are clearly a trend. If it happened once then I could blame it on the team not being ready or looking past the game to the next one, but it has happened over and over again. It usually starts with sloppy turnovers trying to force the ball to places it shouldn't go, lack of play making and not getting back in transition, and low energy. Not sure what the fix is other than to trick the team into thinking 10 minutes have already gone by when the ball is tipped.

Loved the zone defense and we should definitely use it against the CHeats, who are setting records in futility from behind the arc. Our bigs have been in foul trouble two straight games now and that will certainly be something to watch against the two post offense. Not sure why Hurt didn't get more time in this one, Alex also played pretty well while he was in and was coming off a great game but then got glued to the bench.

Not much more to say about this one, other than I'm glad we fought out a win on a night when nothing was falling for either team.

[Billy Dat]

I haven't read K this salty in a presser in a long time.

https://goduke.com/documents/2020/2/4//Duke_BC_Coach_K_Quotes.pdf

On how the young players handled adversity on the road:
“They have a lot of adversity with me because they didn’t listen to me, so they’re in trouble with me and that’s the main adversity that they have, because it’s stupid not to listen. I’ve warned them for two days about it. I’ve watched their recent games – they’ve been playing great, not good. This guy’s (BC’s Jim Christian) a good coach, and these kids (BC) played their butts off and I thought they did that even better than what I’ve seen in the last three games. They took it up a notch. They were very good tonight. They were certainly deserving of winning – we were fortunate tonight."

[roywhite]

https://goduke.com/documents/2020/2/4//Duke_BC_Box_Score.pdf

Notes from the boxscore:

Matthew Hurt with 11 minutes and 2 points was virtually invisible
It seemed like Derryck Thornton was going Aubrey Dawkins on us
Wendell Moore had 30 minutes -- Coach K really values his defense and toughness
Good job, Joey Baker!

[devildeac]

Took your advice-Founders Backwoods Bastard- great idea ~!

10185

Indeed. A world class beer. Outstanding choice.

[KandG]

Just got back from the game, which as usual had a very healthy Duke contingent. In fact, when the game started and Duke went down 12-2, a couple of late arriving BC fans nearby joked that the scoreboard operator must have mixed up the teams...which wasn't exactly a vote of confidence for their team to start.

The BC fans in the arena were weirdly reserved for most of the first half, like they couldn't believe how bad Duke was. I've attended the BC game for several years now, but this was the first time I was able to sit so close to courtside, and if Duke's sluggishness looked bad to the national television audience, I can tell you it was 10-20 times worse in person. BC was running simple weaves and high screens, and the simplest opening created by a screen left Duke defenders flapping at driving BC players like wounded ducks. Guys were glaring at each other or had their shoulders slumped every time BC got an open layup. And some of BC's first half turnovers and missed 3s weren't even the result of good Duke D: just BC players not being good enough to make the right play. I was amazed BC wasn't up 20 in the first half.

I wasn't sure K's initial subs in the first half really helped that much: it was obvious he lifted several starters because he wasn't happy with the start, but the lineup he had at one point made me question who was going to score. The low point was when the offense was so stagnant Jack White took on his defender one on one into the lane, a sight as rare as an eclipse. Of course, he missed the short shot badly.

One thing BC did well is they were very physical with both Tre and Vernon, and both players'' legs looked extremely heavy (understandable after the intense game at Syracuse and the short turnaround). That meant other players had to make plays or convert 3s, and BC was laying way off Goldwire (and sometimes trapping or stunting toward Tre w/Jordan's man). No Duke player seemed capable of making a play or making a 3 for a good chunk of the game (Cassius and Wendell were forcing a lot or flat out missing open layups, and none of our spot up shooters could make anything).

It got to the point where BC had three players spread way out on the perimeter defensively and two guys shaded inside to keep the ball from getting to Vernon, and none of our guys could make plays without turning the ball over -- a lot of missed layups sure, but also lots of bad reads of the defense. Joey finally making shots and then driving into the seams of the defense for two layups finally broke their D a little. And as others have pointed out, the zone and (especially) the 2-2-1 press halted BC's momentum: you could see their confidence start to break when Tre and Jordan started applying pressure higher.

In fairness to the BC crowd, they got considerably louder in the second half, to the point that after Vernon got his fourth foul on a very lazy pursuit of a loose ball after a missed layup, I actually thought Duke could lose. Eventually, a big "Let's Go Duke" chant filled the arena after we pulled in front and looked like we were on our way to winning (think it was right after the Joey Baker steal), after which the BC crowd attempted to drown it out with a "Let's Go Eagles" chant. Hey, it was more entertaining than most of this hideous game.

Time for all the guys to get some ice baths and rest and recovery in preparation for Saturday. Interesting that K effectively gave up on Jack and Cassius and Matt in the second half, but tried starting the second half with Alex (which didn't quite work out). Just a strange game all the way around, but nothing surprises me with this team, which wears their frailties on their sleeves sometimes. Hoping (praying?) this game is the worst game they play the rest of the season.

[SkyBrickey]

Joey Buckets and Tre down the stretch were two positives.

But the biggest positive on the night was the success of the zone press. Nice reminder of that weapon to switch up the look and ramp up the pressure. I always feel like our guys gain energy when they get a break from M2M and switch to that D. Would love to see us go to it more.

[KandG]

I haven't read K this salty in a presser in a long time.

https://goduke.com/documents/2020/2/4//Duke_BC_Coach_K_Quotes.pdf


Can't say I blame him. I've been fortunate to watch a lot of good wins in person, as well as some dispiriting losses, but those first eight minutes featured some of the worst basketball I've ever seen a good Duke team play in a long, long time.

[devildeac]

I haven't read K this salty in a presser in a long time.

https://goduke.com/documents/2020/2/4//Duke_BC_Coach_K_Quotes.pdf

On how the young players handled adversity on the road:
“They have a lot of adversity with me because they didn’t listen to me, so they’re in trouble with me and that’s the main adversity that they have, because it’s stupid not to listen. I’ve warned them for two days about it. I’ve watched their recent games – they’ve been playing great, not good. This guy’s (BC’s Jim Christian) a good coach, and these kids (BC) played their butts off and I thought they did that even better than what I’ve seen in the last three games. They took it up a notch. They were very good tonight. They were certainly deserving of winning – we were fortunate tonight."

Almost like K had a seat behind the wheel of one of these:

https://www.google.com/search?q=duke+bus+photo&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=SW66e6Q_eIYurM%253A%252C5GpEKsuYe8YRHM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kSoMhm4hRS3LcOgGsylJoGFsT-J5Q&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwje-uKYx7nnAhXndN8KHVYcDVYQ9QEwAHoECAoQBQ#imgrc=SW66e6 Q_eIYurM:

Almost.

[rsvman]

Okay, but I get an assist. I said the team looks lethargic, K should get them to press to wake them up and get them moving. Right on queue he did it, and the final surge occurred.

Fair enough.

[Kedsy]

Kind of the opposite of the Syracuse game. This time we had good defense and bad offense.

OFFENSE

Possessions: 70.6 (OK pace, maybe a bit slow)
oRtg: 0.89 (0.95 adjusted; 2nd worst raw oRating of the season, but considering who we were playing, probably our worst offensive performance of the season)
eFG%: 38.5% (putrid; our worst eFG of the season)
3pt%: 6.7% (likewise, our worst 3pt performance of the season)
2pt%: 47.8% (not good)
%threes: 24.6% (After five straight games over 37%+ from three, this game was our 2nd straight game under 32% from three. Personally, I'm in favor of fewer threes, but this time it obviously didn't help)
FT rate: 32.9% (pretty good)
OR%: 27.5% (pretty bad)
TO%: 15.6% (good, for this year's team)
a/to: 0.91:1 (not good)
%assisted: 43.5% (meh)
fast break pts: 4 (6.3% of points; terrible, after six 18+ fast break points in last eight games)

DEFENSE

dRtg: 0.78 (adjusted dRtg of 0.83 still strong after four defensive clunkers in our previous five games)
eFG%: 39.0% (very good)
3pt%: 11.1% (awesome; best opposing 3% of the season)
2pt%: 48.8% (a tad worse than decent)
%threes: 30.5% (only 8th time in 22 games that an opponent has taken more than 30% of their shots from three, but at 30.5%, nothing to complain about)
FT rate: 20.3% (good)
DR%: 71.8% (acceptable)
TO%: 24.1% (good)
a/to: 0.41:1 (excellent)
%assisted: 31.8% (very low)
stl%: 8.5% (not good; 4th straight blah steals performance)
blk%: 3.4% (4.9% of 2pt shots) (lousy)
fast break pts: 7 (12.7% of points; pretty good, after four straight not-so-good defensive fast break performance)


Both teams shot poorly. The difference was basically turnovers. Though it's worth noting that after 7.5 minutes (12 possessions), we only had 2 points, so our overall offensive futility wasn't nearly so bad as it looks (though still not so great: 1.04 raw ppp; 1.10 adjusted in last 32.5 minutes).

[simplyluvin]

Key Question - Was our defense good tonight, or was BC really offensively challenged? I honestly couldn't tell. It'll be interesting to see what Kedsy comes back with, and I wonder if there are metrics that can differentiate the two.

I'll take this win and glad we pulled off this with grit and some All-American-type play by Tre. At around the 10 minute mark, I was thinking, if we win, this will feel like a loss, but our guys redeemed themselves towards the end. Joey B was a spark, as was the 2-3 zone.

[kako]

5 thoughts...

1. Perhaps the ugliest Duke game in many years (or even decades?), win or lose. There have been other low scoring games, but the quality of play was much better in those, e.g. Duke/Butler final. BC certainly contributed to the debacle - how many of their TOs were unforced? But I'll take the win, of course.

2. The move by K to put in Baker seemed to be a bit of desperation to me at first, but it worked well. Baker seemed hungry after not playing against Cuse. I was thankful he hit that 3. This team did not want to the team that lost the non-conf home winning streak *and* the 3 point streak.

3. Carey didn't have a great game, but he still was so key in the win. He pulled down the boards, got enough shots up and in, and hit 7-8 from the line. That last part is my favorite part. If teams can no longer foul him, there's really no consistent way to stop him. And speaking of FTs, 16-20 for the team from the line? I was really pleased to see that.

4. Another Stanley highlight jam! I want to see a highlight video at the end of the year ranking his best acrobatics.

5. So what happened? Trap game? Thinking it was an easy win over a team they routed before, basic overconfidence? Thornton working for his revenge? BC all confident after beating the Heels last weekend? Not sure. But I think the Devils are running stadiums all day tomorrow - they need to listen to K and get their heads out of the clouds. Maybe they even run them when they get back from RDU, even in the middle of the night... Leading the way should be Hurt - really, I wonder how some mock drafts have him as a 1st round pick? But whatever K does to get them ready, I'm looking forward to a team that comes out on fire against Carolina.

9F

[Steven43]

As a poster mentioned earlier in the thread the lack of fire and mediocre play tonight from our Blue Devils was almost surely related to the back-to-back far away travel games, not to mention the inevitable looking ahead to Saturday’s UNC game.

And sometimes you just play to the level of your opponent, especially on the road, it was actually pretty easy to predict Duke was going to have this kind of game tonight. Move along. Nothing to see here, folks.

[heyman25]

https://goduke.com/documents/2020/2/4//Duke_BC_Box_Score.pdf

Notes from the boxscore:

Matthew Hurt with 11 minutes and 2 points was virtually invisible
It seemed like Derryck Thornton was going Aubrey Dawkins on us
Wendell Moore had 30 minutes -- Coach K really values his defense and toughness
Good job, Joey Baker!
Hurt was seen by Danny Ainge tonight. I am sure he will take a pass. Tatum and Jefferson got to witness the ugliest Duke basketball in quite some time.

[Coballs]

Any links to Coach K’s postgame presser?

[weezie]

Good grief people, I take one little trip over the ocean to look for winter in Iceland and this is what I get? An unnerving txt message at 5am local time along me what's up with Duke?
Not cool!
Thank you Tre Jones for carrying us!

[Tooold]

K’s comment about the difference between “shooting” and “scoring” when you are near the basket was very interesting. We were trying to shoot, not trying to score, and that’s why we didn’t get foul calls on the contact. While it is a nuanced concept, I think it makes sense.

[moonpie23]

Good grief people, I take one little trip over the ocean to look for winter in Iceland
Thank you Tre Jones for carrying us!

envy

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Any links to Coach K’s postgame presser?
https://goduke.com/watch/?Archive=2332&type=Archive

[Duke76]

Just got back from the game, which as usual had a very healthy Duke contingent. In fact, when the game started and Duke went down 12-2, a couple of late arriving BC fans nearby joked that the scoreboard operator must have mixed up the teams...which wasn't exactly a vote of confidence for their team to start.

The BC fans in the arena were weirdly reserved for most of the first half, like they couldn't believe how bad Duke was. I've attended the BC game for several years now, but this was the first time I was able to sit so close to courtside, and if Duke's sluggishness looked bad to the national television audience, I can tell you it was 10-20 times worse in person. BC was running simple weaves and high screens, and the simplest opening created by a screen left Duke defenders flapping at driving BC players like wounded ducks. Guys were glaring at each other or had their shoulders slumped every time BC got an open layup. And some of BC's first half turnovers and missed 3s weren't even the result of good Duke D: just BC players not being good enough to make the right play. I was amazed BC wasn't up 20 in the first half.

I wasn't sure K's initial subs in the first half really helped that much: it was obvious he lifted several starters because he wasn't happy with the start, but the lineup he had at one point made me question who was going to score. The low point was when the offense was so stagnant Jack White took on his defender one on one into the lane, a sight as rare as an eclipse. Of course, he missed the short shot badly.

One thing BC did well is they were very physical with both Tre and Vernon, and both players'' legs looked extremely heavy (understandable after the intense game at Syracuse and the short turnaround). That meant other players had to make plays or convert 3s, and BC was laying way off Goldwire (and sometimes trapping or stunting toward Tre w/Jordan's man). No Duke player seemed capable of making a play or making a 3 for a good chunk of the game (Cassius and Wendell were forcing a lot or flat out missing open layups, and none of our spot up shooters could make anything).

It got to the point where BC had three players spread way out on the perimeter defensively and two guys shaded inside to keep the ball from getting to Vernon, and none of our guys could make plays without turning the ball over -- a lot of missed layups sure, but also lots of bad reads of the defense. Joey finally making shots and then driving into the seams of the defense for two layups finally broke their D a little. And as others have pointed out, the zone and (especially) the 2-2-1 press halted BC's momentum: you could see their confidence start to break when Tre and Jordan started applying pressure higher.

In fairness to the BC crowd, they got considerably louder in the second half, to the point that after Vernon got his fourth foul on a very lazy pursuit of a loose ball after a missed layup, I actually thought Duke could lose. Eventually, a big "Let's Go Duke" chant filled the arena after we pulled in front and looked like we were on our way to winning (think it was right after the Joey Baker steal), after which the BC crowd attempted to drown it out with a "Let's Go Eagles" chant. Hey, it was more entertaining than most of this hideous game.

Time for all the guys to get some ice baths and rest and recovery in preparation for Saturday. Interesting that K effectively gave up on Jack and Cassius and Matt in the second half, but tried starting the second half with Alex (which didn't quite work out). Just a strange game all the way around, but nothing surprises me with this team, which wears their frailties on their sleeves sometimes. Hoping (praying?) this game is the worst game they play the rest of the season.

great review K and G. Did it look like we were running many plays? To me, there is a direct correlation between a game where our guys are running a lot of plays and how well we play....or said another way....a game where all we doing is dribbling rather than passing equals a bad game for us. Haven't look at assists but bet there were not many?

[HereBeforeCoachK]

As a poster mentioned earlier in the thread the lack of fire and mediocre play tonight from our Blue Devils was almost surely related to the back-to-back far away travel games, not to mention the inevitable looking ahead to Saturday’s UNC game.

And sometimes you just play to the level of your opponent, especially on the road, it was actually pretty easy to predict Duke was going to have this kind of game tonight. Move along. Nothing to see here, folks.

I think this is valid point.....still disturbing to see them play like that, but there were mitigating circumstances as mentioned above.


K’s comment about the difference between “shooting” and “scoring” when you are near the basket was very interesting. We were trying to shoot, not trying to score, and that’s why we didn’t get foul calls on the contact. While it is a nuanced concept, I think it makes sense.

Rings true....especially with Vernon...as I think through the misses inside, those were "shots" while his successes came with stronger moves to the rim.

[Indoor66]

"Just win baby". I don't know if the beating we put on them earlier or the team was caught looking ahead to the uncheat game but the energy didn't seem to be there for most of the game. Next play and beat the cheats in the Dean Dome. Make them cry. 9F!!!

GoDuke!

As my daddy used to say (and I have said here before): It ain't how, it's how many/

[DukeFanSince1990]

All the layups we left on the table..Geez. But a win is a win..

This is the story. Just seemed like everyone was off.

[Tooold]

I liked K’s version of Roy’s “this was the last thing we did in practice, but they didn’t do it the way I taught them. Not a talented team”. K said (paraphrasing) “the adversity was from me. I told them.....but they didn’t listen. So they got a lot of adversity from me”. He also emphasized how much better BC is now than when we played them before. Much classier presser...no one was thrown under the bus.

[Tooold]

This is the story. Just seemed like everyone was off.
I bet this week they work on “scoring” rather than “shooting” when near the basket.

[DevilHorse]

Is that 2 games now with improved Foul Shooting? What is in the water at away games?

What is with that weave we do on occasion at the top of the key when a defender just has to stand there and our guards just run quickly back and forth and hand it to the next guard for 2 or 3 cycles? The ball barely moves; the defender barely moves; but Duke guards get exhausted. It is an invitation to a turnover.

Where was this Joey Baker and his high shooting percentage? Welcome back.

Was that Cassius Stanley I saw as #4 on the the SCTop10?



Larry
DevilHorse

[wsb3]

https://goduke.com/watch/?Archive=2332&type=Archive

Thank you for the press link Dr. Rosenrosen. I thought the last few minutes about the state of college basketball was really good. It was what I was thinking earlier about my comment of seeing more ugly games. We have so many players leaving early. The product is in my opinion is not that good. I don't mean just Duke.

For example FSU is suppose to be good. UNC goes 12 minutes without a FG & FSU barely hangs on to win... at Home. They just played a little less ugly than the Cheats. Duke played a couple of plays less ugly than BC.

Like Coach K said, The NBA has a plan for when they return to kids going straight from HS to the NBA.. What kind of plan does the NCAA have?

I hate to be so negative but I think the game will continue in this direction.

I know.. Get off my lawn.

[Tooold]

4. Another Stanley highlight jam! I want to see a highlight video at the end of the year ranking his best acrobatics.

9F

On “Packer and Durham” today, they said they wanted a highlight reel of Stanley’s dunks at the end of the season. So you may get your wish..

[dukelifer]

The only thing that players can control is how hard they play. Sometimes you are not feeling it or you feel you can turn it on when needed. You see this in the NBA all the time. Two long road trips in a row can be exhausting for these young guys and playing a team you crushed will not motivate. K knows this- told his team- but they did not muster the energy. Interesting that the kid who sat on the bench at Syracuse was the spark. Sports is very mental and kids are going to have low days. Duke’s next game will be hyper emotional and exhausting for a different reason. UNC can right the ship with a win against Duke and Duke can crush UNC’s dimming NCAA hopes with a win. Big game/ time to get in the right frame of mind

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I liked K’s version of Roy’s “this was the last thing we did in practice, but they didn’t do it the way I taught them. Not a talented team”. K said (paraphrasing) “the adversity was from me. I told them...but they didn’t listen. So they got a lot of adversity from me”. He also emphasized how much better BC is now than when we played them before. Much classier presser...no one was thrown under the bus.

Well, maybe not under the bus, but I think there was a bus in that comment, and it at least nicked them as it went by....


Thank you for the press link Dr. Rosenrosen. I thought the last few minutes about the state of college basketball was really good. It was what I was thinking earlier about my comment of seeing more ugly games. We have so many players leaving early. The product is in my opinion is not that good. I don't mean just Duke.

For example FSU is suppose to be good. UNC goes 12 minutes without a FG & FSU barely hangs on to win... at Home. They just played a little less ugly than the Cheats. Duke played a couple of plays less ugly than BC.

Like Coach K said, The NBA has a plan for when they return to kids going straight from HS to the NBA.. What kind of plan does the NCAA have?

I hate to be so negative but I think the game will continue in this direction.
.

I think the college game will adjust, and I also think the number of HS players going will not be as high as people think. There are a lot more mega talented players than there were 20-30 years ago, but not that many more NBA roster slots. To make this crunch even tighter, veteran players are staying in shape longer and they will not easily part with their jobs...
Kids like Trevon may never see an NBA court...at some point this glut will be understood. I don't think Trevon and Gary Trent understood this. Among others. I think many will say hey, life in college isn't so bad compared to the G League or playing overseas (which can also be good, but is a mega life change for a teenager).

I think we'll start to see some potential one and done types stick around longer. As much as I love Tre, I don't see him really NBA ready yet. And certainly not Hurt. It's the same everywhere I think.

[jv001]

As my daddy used to say (and I have said here before): It ain't how, it's how many/

And I've said when I make a par and didn't hit one good shot, "I'm glad I don't have to draw a picture on the scorecard for this hole". :cool:

GoDuke!

[Tooold]

Well, maybe not under the bus, but I think there was a bus in that comment, and it at least nicked them as it went by...


Yeah...I don’t completely disagree. However, Coach K’s comments about “adversity from him” were in response to a question about whether the team had to face adversity in the game. His comments in general related to them not listening to him about how much better BC had been playing. And he didn’t start calling out players by name to point out bad play. So I think they could see the bus heading toward them, but it swerved before reaching them.

[Tooold]

Also...not to drag this point out...but K was very complimentary of BC. And he didn’t blame the officials for not calling fouls. His presser after a bad game was SO much more respectful and objective than any of Roy’s.

[House P]

Baker seemed hungry after not playing against Cuse. I was thankful he hit that 3. This team did not want to the team that lost the non-conf home winning streak *and* the 3 point streak.


I know I shouldn't worry about such things, but, as the second half wore on, I was more almost as concerned about potentially snapping the at-least-one-made-three-point-shot streak as I was about losing the game. Sure, losing the game would have more effect on the current season, but 1000+ game streaks don't come along often.

By the way, I didn't realize that Duke's 1089 game streak with at least one made three pointer isn't the longest streak in the NCAA. According to the post-game notes (https://goduke.com/documents/2020/2/4//Duke_BC_Postgame_Notes.pdf), Duke's streak is 2nd to UNLV who currently has a streak of 1092 games. UNLV is averaging almost 25 three point attempts per game over the past couple years, so it is hard to imagine them snapping their streak anytime soon. Therefore, Duke's best chance of moving into the #1 spot is to play more games than UNLV. UNLV is likely to miss out on the post season altogether this season, so a deep tourney run by Duke would go a long way towards closing the gap! :D

[azzefkram]

Glad Duke won but man was that tough to watch. Duke looked sluggish for about 35 minutes of the game. It seemed for much of the game Duke was its own worst enemy. Good to know that everyone from Duke can have an off night and they can still gut out a win.

Is it just me or does Vern get mauled everytime he touches the ball? I know he's a big dude but a foul is still a foul right? If the refs are not going to call that stuff, he's going to have to be better at finishing through contact.

[Truth&Justise]

I know I shouldn't worry about such things, but, as the second half wore on, I was more almost as concerned about potentially snapping the at-least-one-made-three-point-shot streak as I was about losing the game. Sure, losing the game would have more effect on the current season, but 1000+ game streaks don't come along often.

By the way, I didn't realize that Duke's 1089 game streak with at least one made three pointer isn't the longest streak in the NCAA. According to the post-game notes (https://goduke.com/documents/2020/2/4//Duke_BC_Postgame_Notes.pdf), Duke's streak is 2nd to UNLV who currently has a streak of 1092 games. UNLV is averaging almost 25 three point attempts per game over the past couple years, so it is hard to imagine them snapping their streak anytime soon. Therefore, Duke's best chance of moving into the #1 spot is to play more games than UNLV. UNLV is likely to miss out on the post season altogether this season, so a deep tourney run by Duke would go a long way towards closing the gap! :D

It's an interesting list. Three weeks ago Vanderbilt snapped its streak at 1,080 games (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/vanderbilt/2020/01/18/vanderbilt-basketball-3-point-streak-tennessee-vols/4447764002/) by going 0-25 from 3 against Tennessee. Evidently, since the introduction of the three point shot in 1986, Vanderbilt had made a three in every game until then.

UNLV also claims to have made a shot in every game since its introduction, along with Princeton. I can't find the number of games for Princeton's streak, but it is likely far less as the Ivy League didn't have a conference tournament until 2017, and Princeton has made 11 NCAA tournament appearances since 1986, as compared to UNLV (14) and Duke (33). Of course, UNLV--and especially Duke--have typically lasted longer in the NCAA tournament than the Tigers. Does anyone know where to find a full list of the current three point streaks?

[BD80]

Well, maybe not under the bus, but I think there was a bus in that comment, and it at least nicked them as it went by... .


That weren't no bus, it was a switch. And they were supposed to feel it. Brandishing a switch taint no use unless they feel its sting behind the woodshed a time or two...


When it comes to teaching and motivating young men, K is playing 3D chess, ol' roy is playing checkers. (He keeps trying to "king" Anthony).

[Tooold]

Is it just me or does Vern get mauled everytime he touches the ball? I know he's a big dude but a foul is still a foul right? If the refs are not going to call that stuff, he's going to have to be better at finishing through contact.

Coach K addressed this in his presser when he said basically that if you are not going strong to the basket (in his words, “scoring” rather than “shooting”) then the physical play is just good defense and not a foul. If VC is just shooting, he won’t get the fouls called. But if he is “scoring” (going hard to basket), then he will either score or get the foul called. While the difference seems subtle, it does seem to make sense.

Having said that, I agree he gets hit every time, and doesn’t get as many calls as he should.

[AZLA]

Just got back from the game, which as usual had a very healthy Duke contingent. In fact, when the game started and Duke went down 12-2, a couple of late arriving BC fans nearby joked that the scoreboard operator must have mixed up the teams...which wasn't exactly a vote of confidence for their team to start.

The BC fans in the arena were weirdly reserved for most of the first half, like they couldn't believe how bad Duke was. I've attended the BC game for several years now, but this was the first time I was able to sit so close to courtside, and if Duke's sluggishness looked bad to the national television audience, I can tell you it was 10-20 times worse in person. BC was running simple weaves and high screens, and the simplest opening created by a screen left Duke defenders flapping at driving BC players like wounded ducks. Guys were glaring at each other or had their shoulders slumped every time BC got an open layup

Great write up from the action in person. You’re right. Reading your commentary, it struck me that, yes, Duke players looked like they weren’t “talking.” Even more so it appeared there wasn’t a leader out there (on the court as an extension of Coach K) taking command and motivating the team — getting them to snap out of the funk and play to their capabilities. I could see Coach on numerous occasions imploring them to huddle and communicate. In championship seasons there has always been a firebrand motivator or strong communications amongst those teams — Battier or Laetttner. It’s natural when you miss a bunny layup or commit turnovers to stay in your head and get down on yourself or process it. But from a team perspective it permeates to everyone else. I would much rather have a teammate communicate/motivate verbally to other team members (supportively) than glare, stew, or keep it in. If that includes getting in their face a little, so be it. Good floor communication/leadership is essential for every Duke championship team in the past. I’m not saying it’s not there now — Tre is the man — but the volume needs to be turned up and it needs to be more consistent. It’s not surprise to met that Joey — who is always on encouraging everyone — came out and turned the game around in the right direction and Tre finished it. On Saturday especially Duke needs to keep communicating loudly and consistently with each other to play at a high level. It’s the missing ingredient from the start of the BC game. It will help players get out of their own heads when mistakes happen and get back to playing in the moment and together as a team. I anticipate we will see more of this on Saturday.

[jv001]

Coach K addressed this in his presser when he said basically that if you are not going strong to the basket (in his words, “scoring” rather than “shooting”) then the physical play is just good defense and not a foul. If VC is just shooting, he won’t get the fouls called. But if he is “scoring” (going hard to basket), then he will either score or get the foul called. While the difference seems subtle, it does seem to make sense.

Having said that, I agree he gets hit every time, and doesn’t get as many calls as he should.

Sometimes it looks like Vernon is trying to finesse his shots rather than going hard into his defender. He also tries to grab the ball with one hand and doesn't get control of the ball at times. I remember in one game, Vernon went after an offensive rebound with one hand and Coach K looked at one of the assistants and motioned with both his hands in a clutching motion. It didn't much to know what he was talking about.

GoDuke!

[devildeac]

That weren't no bus, it was a switch. And they were supposed to feel it. Brandishing a switch taint no use unless they feel its sting behind the woodshed a time or two...


When it comes to teaching and motivating young men, K is playing 3D chess, ol' roy is playing checkers. (He keeps trying to "king" Anthony).

Speaking of "kings," King Rice still sucks.

Amirite, OPK?

Carry on.

[jv001]

Great write up from the action in person. You’re right. Reading your commentary, it struck me that, yes, Duke players looked like they weren’t “talking.” Even more so it appeared there wasn’t a leader out there (on the court as an extension of Coach K) taking command and motivating the team — getting them to snap out of the funk and play to their capabilities. I could see Coach on numerous occasions imploring them to huddle and communicate. In championship seasons there has always been a firebrand motivator or strong communications amongst those teams — Battier or Laetttner. It’s natural when you miss a bunny layup or commit turnovers to stay in your head and get down on yourself or process it. But from a team perspective it permeates to everyone else. I would much rather have a teammate communicate/motivate verbally to other team members (supportively) than glare, stew, or keep it in. If that includes getting in their face a little, so be it. Good floor communication/leadership is essential for every Duke championship team in the past. I’m not saying it’s not there now — Tre is the man — but the volume needs to be turned up and it needs to be more consistent. It’s not surprise to met that Joey — who is always on encouraging everyone — came out and turned the game around in the right direction and Tre finished it. On Saturday especially Duke needs to keep communicating loudly and consistently with each other to play at a high level. It’s the missing ingredient from the start of the BC game. It will help players get out of their own heads when mistakes happen and get back to playing in the moment and together as a team. I anticipate we will see more of this on Saturday.

I think you have hit on a very important ingredient that might be missing on this team. So far we don't have a vocal leader that can help the team snap out of a funk. I think the player who could be that guy is Jack White. To me Jack looks like a natural leader but he isn't on the court enough to assume that role. I believe it should be Tre but he seems to be too quiet. When you look at this team none of the freshmen are vocal enough to be that guy. Vernon, Cassius, Matthew and Wendell. Maybe it could be Jordan who is getting a lot of minutes but would the team respond to him. Someone needs to step up and be the guy. I hope it turns out to be Tre because the other players will listen to him. He's shown that he can be clutch at the end of games and that should translate to being the leader of the team. One thing for sure, he's on the court for most of the game.

GoDuke!

[Phredd3]

Well, maybe not under the bus, but I think there was a bus in that comment, and it at least nicked them as it went by....

Coach K essentially said, "I'm not happy with my team." But that's a hugely different comment coming after a "fortunate" win than coming after a loss. Doing it after a win is telling your team that practices are going to be a bit different this week and the team better be ready. It's a kick in the behind. After a loss, everyone already knows they didn't do enough, so the same comment then just becomes piling on. Context is everything.

[scottdude8]

10185

Indeed. A world class beer. Outstanding choice.

What a great beer! And made in my homestate of Michigan, no less ;) If you ever see something by Founders, or another Michigan microbrewery Bell, go get it and thank me later.

[OldPhiKap]

Speaking of "kings," King Rice still sucks.

Amirite, OPK?

Carry on.

Correct as usual, good sir.

[Tripping William]

What a great beer! And made in my homestate of Michigan, no less ;) If you ever see something by Founders, or another Michigan microbrewery Bell, go get it and thank me later.

Our resident Curmudgeon plainly agrees. :o

[Kedsy]

To all those people talking about how "ugly" this game was, I think it boils down to just two things: a very slow start and poor three-point shooting. And I don't think either of those things really made the game "ugly."

Duke was down 12-2 after 7.5 minutes. Meaning we won by 18 over the last 32.5 minutes (which translates to 22+ over 40 minutes). I know you can't ignore the slow start, but an 18 (or 22) point road win over a decent team? Who would complain about that?

I didn't think that any (or certainly not many) of our three-point attempts were bad shots. They just didn't go in. And, to me at least, it's not ugly when a decent three-point shooter takes a decent three-point shot. If Duke hits its average from three, we make 4 or 5 more threes, doing nothing else different. Now, we did offensively rebound 4 of our 14 three-point misses, and managed 4 second-chance points on those. (Also, if we'd been shooting well, it's possible we take more three-attempts and also possible BC gets a couple fewer runouts, but it's impossible to calculate those factors with any reliability.) But if we'd had a regular shooting day from three, I think it's fair to say it would have been worth something between 8 and 15 points, which even with the bad start (though we missed four threes during the first 7.5 minutes, so if we were shooting better the bad start might not have been so bad) would have meant a 16 to 23 point victory, and again nobody would be complaining about "ugliness."

We also missed more layups than usual (according to the box score, we shot 13 for 30 at the rim (43.3%), which is much worse than our season percentage at the rim (61.6%). We also had four offensive rebounds on missed layups (two second-chance points), so if we'd shot our average we would have had somewhere between 4 and 10 points, which translates to a 12 to 18 point victory, all other things being equal. So I guess the missed layups contributed to the "ugliness," but not as much as the first two factors. FWIW, this game represented our 6th worst two-point shooting performance (and sixth game under 50% from two-point range), and we've gone 5-1 in those six games.

We often say a game is "ugly" when we turn the ball over a lot, but that wasn't really true in this game. Our turnover% of 15.6% was our 9th best (out of 22 games) of the season. So, an above-average performance there.

Someone mentioned we didn't have many assists, and it's true our assist% was our 3rd lowest of the season. But that's misleading, because we usually get a lot of assists on three-pointers, and this game we only made one three:

%assisted (Duke 2019-20)
------------------------------
Threes: 81.9%
Two point jumpers: 31.0%
At the rim: 45.6%

So, again, if we'd made 40% of our threes, we'd probably have had four more assists and our assist% would have been 50%, which is less than our season average of 54%, but not that much less.

In conclusion, I suppose "ugliness" is in the eye of the beholder, but I personally didn't think this game was as ugly as apparently a lot of others did.

[Phredd3]

In conclusion, I suppose "ugliness" is in the eye of the beholder, but I personally didn't think this game was as ugly as apparently a lot of others did.


Kind of the opposite of the Syracuse game. This time we had good defense and bad offense.

OFFENSE

Possessions: 70.6 (OK pace, maybe a bit slow)
oRtg: 0.89 (0.95 adjusted; 2nd worst raw oRating of the season, but considering who we were playing, probably our worst offensive performance of the season)
eFG%: 38.5% (putrid; our worst eFG of the season)
3pt%: 6.7% (likewise, our worst 3pt performance of the season)
2pt%: 47.8% (not good)
%threes: 24.6% (After five straight games over 37%+ from three, this game was our 2nd straight game under 32% from three. Personally, I'm in favor of fewer threes, but this time it obviously didn't help)
FT rate: 32.9% (pretty good)
OR%: 27.5% (pretty bad)
TO%: 15.6% (good, for this year's team)
a/to: 0.91:1 (not good)
%assisted: 43.5% (meh)
fast break pts: 4 (6.3% of points; terrible, after six 18+ fast break points in last eight games)

So, um, what does "ugly" actually look like, then?

[tbyers11]

To all those people talking about how "ugly" this game was, I think it boils down to just two things: a very slow start and poor three-point shooting. And I don't think either of those things really made the game "ugly."

Duke was down 12-2 after 7.5 minutes. Meaning we won by 18 over the last 32.5 minutes (which translates to 22+ over 40 minutes). I know you can't ignore the slow start, but an 18 (or 22) point road win over a decent team? Who would complain about that?

I didn't think that any (or certainly not many) of our three-point attempts were bad shots. They just didn't go in. And, to me at least, it's not ugly when a decent three-point shooter takes a decent three-point shot. If Duke hits its average from three, we make 4 or 5 more threes, doing nothing else different. Now, we did offensively rebound 4 of our 14 three-point misses, and managed 4 second-chance points on those. (Also, if we'd been shooting well, it's possible we take more three-attempts and also possible BC gets a couple fewer runouts, but it's impossible to calculate those factors with any reliability.) But if we'd had a regular shooting day from three, I think it's fair to say it would have been worth something between 8 and 15 points, which even with the bad start (though we missed four threes during the first 7.5 minutes, so if we were shooting better the bad start might not have been so bad) would have meant a 16 to 23 point victory, and again nobody would be complaining about "ugliness."

We also missed more layups than usual (according to the box score, we shot 13 for 30 at the rim (43.3%), which is much worse than our season percentage at the rim (61.6%). We also had four offensive rebounds on missed layups (two second-chance points), so if we'd shot our average we would have had somewhere between 4 and 10 points, which translates to a 12 to 18 point victory, all other things being equal. So I guess the missed layups contributed to the "ugliness," but not as much as the first two factors. FWIW, this game represented our 6th worst two-point shooting performance (and sixth game under 50% from two-point range), and we've gone 5-1 in those six games.

We often say a game is "ugly" when we turn the ball over a lot, but that wasn't really true in this game. Our turnover% of 15.6% was our 9th best (out of 22 games) of the season. So, an above-average performance there.

Someone mentioned we didn't have many assists, and it's true our assist% was our 3rd lowest of the season. But that's misleading, because we usually get a lot of assists on three-pointers, and this game we only made one three:

%assisted (Duke 2019-20)
------------------------------
Threes: 81.9%
Two point jumpers: 31.0%
At the rim: 45.6%

So, again, if we'd made 40% of our threes, we'd probably have had four more assists and our assist% would have been 50%, which is less than our season average of 54%, but not that much less.

In conclusion, I suppose "ugliness" is in the eye of the beholder, but I personally didn't think this game was as ugly as apparently a lot of others did.

I generally agree with your points on "ugliness" re our 3pt shooting, but I want to add that BC's 3 point shooting was "outlier" bad as well. At 2-18 they shot well below their average (29%). If both teams shot their average from 3, we'd have had 4 more 3PT makes and BC would have had 3 more for a less ugly final score of 75-64.

I think the missed layups really contributed to the ugliness tone. Matthew, Vernon, Cassius, and Jack all missed layups in the first five minutes. Jack's was a difficult contested shot but I'd classify the other three as an "easy" layup that is made ~90% of time. Missing these shots obviously contributed to the early 12-2 hole but I also think it got in the players heads a bit and accounted for Coach K's post-game remarks of shooting around the rim instead of scoring.

In fact, if we had made those 3 "easy layups" and both teams shot their average from 3 the final score would have been 81-64, which in an odd coincidence was the score predicted by Kenpom's model.

[TruBlu]

So, um, what does "ugly" actually look like, then?

Mike O’Koren and numerous other cheaters.

[OldPhiKap]

So, um, what does "ugly" actually look like, then?

Did you see Roy’s jacket?

[arnie]

To all those people talking about how "ugly" this game was, I think it boils down to just two things: a very slow start and poor three-point shooting. And I don't think either of those things really made the game "ugly."

Duke was down 12-2 after 7.5 minutes. Meaning we won by 18 over the last 32.5 minutes (which translates to 22+ over 40 minutes). I know you can't ignore the slow start, but an 18 (or 22) point road win over a decent team? Who would complain about that?

I didn't think that any (or certainly not many) of our three-point attempts were bad shots. They just didn't go in. And, to me at least, it's not ugly when a decent three-point shooter takes a decent three-point shot. If Duke hits its average from three, we make 4 or 5 more threes, doing nothing else different. Now, we did offensively rebound 4 of our 14 three-point misses, and managed 4 second-chance points on those. (Also, if we'd been shooting well, it's possible we take more three-attempts and also possible BC gets a couple fewer runouts, but it's impossible to calculate those factors with any reliability.) But if we'd had a regular shooting day from three, I think it's fair to say it would have been worth something between 8 and 15 points, which even with the bad start (though we missed four threes during the first 7.5 minutes, so if we were shooting better the bad start might not have been so bad) would have meant a 16 to 23 point victory, and again nobody would be complaining about "ugliness."

We also missed more layups than usual (according to the box score, we shot 13 for 30 at the rim (43.3%), which is much worse than our season percentage at the rim (61.6%). We also had four offensive rebounds on missed layups (two second-chance points), so if we'd shot our average we would have had somewhere between 4 and 10 points, which translates to a 12 to 18 point victory, all other things being equal. So I guess the missed layups contributed to the "ugliness," but not as much as the first two factors. FWIW, this game represented our 6th worst two-point shooting performance (and sixth game under 50% from two-point range), and we've gone 5-1 in those six games.

We often say a game is "ugly" when we turn the ball over a lot, but that wasn't really true in this game. Our turnover% of 15.6% was our 9th best (out of 22 games) of the season. So, an above-average performance there.

Someone mentioned we didn't have many assists, and it's true our assist% was our 3rd lowest of the season. But that's misleading, because we usually get a lot of assists on three-pointers, and this game we only made one three:

%assisted (Duke 2019-20)
------------------------------
Threes: 81.9%
Two point jumpers: 31.0%
At the rim: 45.6%

So, again, if we'd made 40% of our threes, we'd probably have had four more assists and our assist% would have been 50%, which is less than our season average of 54%, but not that much less.

In conclusion, I suppose "ugliness" is in the eye of the beholder, but I personally didn't think this game was as ugly as apparently a lot of others did.

I know your analysis is statistical and you’ve stated you don’t watch some games. Did you watch this one? It appears you did and if so did you see the sluggishness in rebounding, defending (see Matthew Hurt), poor finishes at the rim. The eye test told me BC didn’t play well and Duke only won because we were on fire at the very end and BC was not on top of their game.

[tbyers11]

Did you see Roy’s jacket?

Did you see Roy's tie??

[Phredd3]

Mike O’Koren and numerous other cheaters.

Asked and answered. Well done! We can categorize the Roy follow-ups as "other cheaters".

[Spanarkel]

Coach K won his 500th ACC game last night(against 200 losses).

78 more than Dean's Myth

65 more than Roy and Gary Williams combined

[uh_no]

Coach K won his 500th ACC game last night(against 200 losses).

78 more than Dean's Myth

65 more than Roy and Gary Williams combined

21 more than roy and gary and buzz williams combined!

[arnie]

21 more than roy and gary and buzz williams combined!

And Pete Gaudet?

[wsb3]

I think the college game will adjust, and I also think the number of HS players going will not be as high as people think. There are a lot more mega talented players than there were 20-30 years ago, but not that many more NBA roster slots. To make this crunch even tighter, veteran players are staying in shape longer and they will not easily part with their jobs...
Kids like Trevon may never see an NBA court...at some point this glut will be understood. I don't think Trevon and Gary Trent understood this. Among others. I think many will say hey, life in college isn't so bad compared to the G League or playing overseas (which can also be good, but is a mega life change for a teenager). I think we'll start to see some potential one and done types stick around longer. As much as I love Tre, I don't see him really NBA ready yet. And certainly not Hurt. It's the same everywhere I think.

I don't think you will be proven correct in your prediction but I sure hope that you are right. I would love to be wrong. The game has changed so much. Really great players once stayed 3-4 years. Then the bar seemed to be if you are in the lottery go ahead. Then it was if you think you are going in the first round, (guaranteed money) go ahead. And now, just leave. You can always play in the G league.

[devildeac]

What a great beer! And made in my homestate of Michigan, no less ;) If you ever see something by Founders, or another Michigan microbrewery Bell, go get it and thank me later.

You forgot New Holland...

Now that we know you like great beers, you're invited to join us anytime on Ymm, Beer.

;)

[Jaks19]

I might be in the minority in thinking this way, but if HS Srs can go to straight to the league, than let them.

It will not eliminate OAD's though, because those next tier players like 30th and lower will then have the opportunity to blossom in college and even have a terrific FR year which would have them then enter the draft.

It's only if the NBA puts in a rule such as a plyer needs to attend college for X amount of years prior to entering the draft that their could be some kind of balance that happens.

College teams obviously want players to stay in college long so build upperclassman leadership, chemistry and to build around in recruiting.

[devildeac]

Our resident Curmudgeon plainly agrees. :o

Ahem, that's Old Curmudgeon to you, young fella.

:cool:

[curtis325]

To all those people talking about how "ugly" this game was, I think it boils down to just two things: a very slow start and poor three-point shooting. And I don't think either of those things really made the game "ugly."

Duke was down 12-2 after 7.5 minutes. Meaning we won by 18 over the last 32.5 minutes (which translates to 22+ over 40 minutes). I know you can't ignore the slow start, but an 18 (or 22) point road win over a decent team? Who would complain about that?

I didn't think that any (or certainly not many) of our three-point attempts were bad shots. They just didn't go in. And, to me at least, it's not ugly when a decent three-point shooter takes a decent three-point shot. If Duke hits its average from three, we make 4 or 5 more threes, doing nothing else different. Now, we did offensively rebound 4 of our 14 three-point misses, and managed 4 second-chance points on those. (Also, if we'd been shooting well, it's possible we take more three-attempts and also possible BC gets a couple fewer runouts, but it's impossible to calculate those factors with any reliability.) But if we'd had a regular shooting day from three, I think it's fair to say it would have been worth something between 8 and 15 points, which even with the bad start (though we missed four threes during the first 7.5 minutes, so if we were shooting better the bad start might not have been so bad) would have meant a 16 to 23 point victory, and again nobody would be complaining about "ugliness."

We also missed more layups than usual (according to the box score, we shot 13 for 30 at the rim (43.3%), which is much worse than our season percentage at the rim (61.6%). We also had four offensive rebounds on missed layups (two second-chance points), so if we'd shot our average we would have had somewhere between 4 and 10 points, which translates to a 12 to 18 point victory, all other things being equal. So I guess the missed layups contributed to the "ugliness," but not as much as the first two factors. FWIW, this game represented our 6th worst two-point shooting performance (and sixth game under 50% from two-point range), and we've gone 5-1 in those six games.

We often say a game is "ugly" when we turn the ball over a lot, but that wasn't really true in this game. Our turnover% of 15.6% was our 9th best (out of 22 games) of the season. So, an above-average performance there.

Someone mentioned we didn't have many assists, and it's true our assist% was our 3rd lowest of the season. But that's misleading, because we usually get a lot of assists on three-pointers, and this game we only made one three:

%assisted (Duke 2019-20)
------------------------------
Threes: 81.9%
Two point jumpers: 31.0%
At the rim: 45.6%

So, again, if we'd made 40% of our threes, we'd probably have had four more assists and our assist% would have been 50%, which is less than our season average of 54%, but not that much less.

In conclusion, I suppose "ugliness" is in the eye of the beholder, but I personally didn't think this game was as ugly as apparently a lot of others did.


Ugly is in the eye of the beholder--or something like that.

I thought the Syracuse game was uglier to watch than the BC game because of the horrible refs (not to say they weren't also horrible yesterday) and the parade of free throws.

[Steven43]

I hate to take credit, but during the in game thread I called for Joey and for the zone. Within a couple of minutes both of my wishes were granted, and we win the game.

I'll be coaching all week. 😊
Do you have K’s cell number? I saw him glance briefly at his phone right around when you posted during the in-game thread. Did you first post on DBR then text him that same info?

I know one of K’s daughters, but she only occasionally has talked about Dad over the years — and I never bring him up. I don’t want to cross that line. I wish I had his cell number like you do, though. There have been so many times where I would have liked to discuss the team with him. I’m positive he would have loved to have gotten my input. 😉

I’ve got a great story about K that I’ll probably share someday. It involves the father of a Duke Med classmate/friend of my wife and a letter he (the father) sent to Coach K wherein he gives advice on how to improve the teams FT shooting. Classic stuff.

[Kedsy]

So, um, what does "ugly" actually look like, then?

Our offense was bad -- probably our worst offensive performance of the season. Doesn't necessarily make it "ugly" or "hard to watch."

To me, an "ugly" game is a game with tons of turnovers and fouls, dumb plays and lack of effort. I didn't see that in this game.


I know your analysis is statistical and you’ve stated you don’t watch some games. Did you watch this one? It appears you did and if so did you see the sluggishness in rebounding, defending (see Matthew Hurt), poor finishes at the rim. The eye test told me BC didn’t play well and Duke only won because we were on fire at the very end and BC was not on top of their game.

I watch all the games that aren't exclusively on the ACC network. So, yes, I watched it.

Our defensive rebounding was fine -- not outstanding perhaps, but certainly not "sluggish." Our finishing at the rim was, as I mentioned in my earlier post, well below our season average, but I'd say that was due in part to BC clogging the lane with multiple players (possibly because we weren't hitting our outside shots). My recollection is most of Vernon's missed layups came while he was physically defended by three guys, and it's just not so easy to finish in that situation. Our offensive rebounding was also below average, but could also be explained by BC generally outnumbering us in the paint. And our defense was very good -- certainly not sluggish.

As far as BC not being "on top of their game," their defense was very successful (though it's hard to say how much of our offensive woes were due to their defensive prowess and how much to our own issues), and while BC was on offense they played pretty close to the same as they did the first time we played them:

DUKE'S DEFENSIVE STATS


BC I BC II
36.3% eFG% 39.0%
16.7% 3pt% 11.1%
40.9% 2pt% 48.8%
29.0% %three 30.5%
14.9% FTR 20.3%
70.5% Reb% 71.8%
25.8% TO% 24.1%
0.42:1 a/to 0.41:1
38.1% %asst 31.8%


In other words, BC played basically the same offense as the last time we played them (a little better, actually) and much better on defense -- so to me it's not an example of them not playing well and us getting lucky. Ultimately, I think a large part of the "ugliness" was we beat them by 40 last game and I guess people expected more of the same this time.

[Indoor66]

You forgot New Holland...

Now that we know you like great beers, you're invited to join us anytime on Ymm, Beer.

;)

Love you, Doc, but will you take the beer talk to the beer thread?

[Phredd3]

Our offense was bad -- probably our worst offensive performance of the season. Doesn't necessarily make it "ugly" or "hard to watch."

To me, an "ugly" game is a game with tons of turnovers and fouls, dumb plays and lack of effort. I didn't see that in this game.

OK, fair enough. I have a somewhat broader definition of "ugly", I suppose.

I did think there were a few dumb plays and a certain amount of lack of effort at times. But I primarily thought there was a lot of sluggishness on offense which really bogged down our efforts. There were a number of times where we spent more than ten seconds from roughly the same spot on the floor trying to figure out how to get the ball to a closely-guarded Carey, who would then either be forced to kick it right back out (often without even the option of finding an open shooter) or would have to force up a shot into the teeth of the defense. In the former case, we often were forced to put up a contested three late in the clock that had little chance of going in, which contributed to the poor three-point percentage (granted, we also missed a fair number of open looks). In the latter case with Carey, those closely-contested shots and the missed open layups explain the low two-point percentage. I would classify all of that as "ugly".

Our approach to the game just wasn't dynamic and flexible. It wasn't so much their defense that made the game sluggish as our offensive scheme. Joey Baker and our press finally corrected that, but not until very late.

On the defensive side, I think we gave up a fair number of open looks, both from deep and from closer in, that BC just didn't hit. While the overall numbers look very similar to the first game, to my eye, the defense in this one was notably worse. But I freely acknowledge that my eyes could have been blinded by the fact that in a close game, every open look seems less forgivable and more like a defensive failing. The same looks given up with a 20-point lead don't seem so crucial. I don't have time to review enough game tape to verify my subjective impressions.

[jv001]

Our offense was bad -- probably our worst offensive performance of the season. Doesn't necessarily make it "ugly" or "hard to watch."

To me, an "ugly" game is a game with tons of turnovers and fouls, dumb plays and lack of effort. I didn't see that in this game.



I watch all the games that aren't exclusively on the ACC network. So, yes, I watched it.

Our defensive rebounding was fine -- not outstanding perhaps, but certainly not "sluggish." Our finishing at the rim was, as I mentioned in my earlier post, well below our season average, but I'd say that was due in part to BC clogging the lane with multiple players (possibly because we weren't hitting our outside shots). My recollection is most of Vernon's missed layups came while he was physically defended by three guys, and it's just not so easy to finish in that situation. Our offensive rebounding was also below average, but could also be explained by BC generally outnumbering us in the paint. And our defense was very good -- certainly not sluggish.

As far as BC not being "on top of their game," their defense was very successful (though it's hard to say how much of our offensive woes were due to their defensive prowess and how much to our own issues), and while BC was on offense they played pretty close to the same as they did the first time we played them:

DUKE'S DEFENSIVE STATS


BC I BC II
36.3% eFG% 39.0%
16.7% 3pt% 11.1%
40.9% 2pt% 48.8%
29.0% %three 30.5%
14.9% FTR 20.3%
70.5% Reb% 71.8%
25.8% TO% 24.1%
0.42:1 a/to 0.41:1
38.1% %asst 31.8%


In other words, BC played basically the same offense as the last time we played them (a little better, actually) and much better on defense -- so to me it's not an example of them not playing well and us getting lucky. Ultimately, I think a large part of the "ugliness" was we beat them by 40 last game and I guess people expected more of the same this time.

The ugliest play of the night was Jordan "bricking" another layup. He's got the yips on those. Liked you post though.

GoDuke!

[flyingdutchdevil]

-Joey Baker is why I love depth. Not because depth enables us to win (although I definitely side with this argument), but rather because it's fun to see non-core players contribute to winning
-We missed gimmes that would be embarrassing in a pick up basketball game (Goldwire's kryponite is clearly layups)
-Duke fans are so spoiled. I was watching the game and, after Stanley's alley oop, turned to my wife and said, "Stanley is the best Duke dunker since...Zion...crap". We've had two insanely talented dunkers in back-to-back years. I mean, I'd argue Stanley is a top 3 dunker to ever wear a Duke jersey (in terms of how impressive the dunk is, not number). And we had Zion last year

[roywhite]

-Joey Baker is why I love depth. Not because depth enables us to win (although I definitely side with this argument), but rather because it's fun to see non-core players contribute to winning
-We missed gimmes that would be embarrassing in a pick up basketball game (Goldwire's kryponite is clearly layups)
-Duke fans are so spoiled. I was watching the game and, after Stanley's alley oop, turned to my wife and said, "Stanley is the best Duke dunker since...Zion...crap". We've had two insanely talented dunkers in back-to-back years. I mean, I'd argue Stanley is a top 3 dunker to ever wear a Duke jersey (in terms of how impressive the dunk is, not number). And we had Zion last year

Really bad shooting by Duke made it ugly for my tastes. Kudos to Joey Baker and Tre down the stretch.

As to the top 3 dunkers in Duke history...hmm, great topic.
I'll agree with you that Zion and Stanley are virtual locks.
Plenty of other good candidates -- Marvin Bagley, Robert Brickey, Gerald Henderson, Grant Hill, Johnny Dawkins come to mind, and I'm sure there are others.
Do we need 4 faces for a Mt. Rushmore of great Duke dunkers?

[flyingdutchdevil]

Really bad shooting by Duke made it ugly for my tastes. Kudos to Joey Baker and Tre down the stretch.

As to the top 3 dunkers in Duke history...hmm, great topic.
I'll agree with you that Zion and Stanley are virtual locks.
Plenty of other good candidates -- Marvin Bagley, Robert Brickey, Gerald Henderson, Grant Hill, Johnny Dawkins come to mind, and I'm sure there are others.
Do we need 4 faces for a Mt. Rushmore of great Duke dunkers?

Unfortunately, I have to discount players taller than 6'8" in terms of impressive dunkers. I know it's not fair, but it just seems easier to dunk if you're taller (I mean, it is easier).

I love the high-flying 6'3"-6'6" specialists who kinda look like us only with hidden athletic talents (okay, they don't look like us but they look more like us than Bagley). That's why Stanley, Henderson, Dahntay, and Dawkins are so impressive to me. And Zion is too strange a body-type to not be insanely impressed.

[jv001]

Unfortunately, I have to discount players taller than 6'8" in terms of impressive dunkers. I know it's not fair, but it just seems easier to dunk if you're taller (I mean, it is easier).

I love the high-flying 6'3"-6'6" specialists who kinda look like us only with hidden athletic talents (okay, they don't look like us but they look more like us than Bagley). That's why Stanley, Henderson, Dahntay, and Dawkins are so impressive to me. And Zion is too strange a body-type to not be insanely impressed.

We had two Hendersons that were great dunkers. Gerald and Phil. I'll never forget the dunk Phil made over a player much taller than him.

GoDuke!

[roywhite]

We had two Hendersons that were great dunkers. Gerald and Phil. I'll never forget the dunk Phil made over a player much taller than him.

GoDuke!

Yeah, Phil Henderson dunked over Alonzo Mourning and it happened in a key (Elite Eight) game. Gerald Henderson's dunk vs Maryland was spectacular.
In the category of dunking on a much taller player, gotta include Gene Banks dunking emphatically over Ralph Sampson.

[miramar]

Really bad shooting by Duke made it ugly for my tastes.

When Duke does worse on three pointers than this 65 year old, then that's ugly.

I have no doubt that I could hit 2-15, and maybe even 3-15 if the planets line up properly.

[Dukehk]

Is Matthew Hurt the new Shavlick Randolph? I mean he can't possibly believe he is a one and done at this stage? Can he?

Gutsy win by Duke on the road. Coach K was right. This was a trap game where we were looking ahead to playing the tarholes. Thankfully we pulled out the win. Tre Jones came up big.

[Kedsy]

I have no doubt that I could hit 2-15, and maybe even 3-15 if the planets line up properly.

While being guarded by Division I college players? I've never met you but I'd bet against.

[AZLA]

While being guarded by Division I college players? I've never met you but I'd bet against.

One big screen would need to be set for him. I think he could do it. Even in the NBA. Once hitting the shot, this would be how I'd celebrate it:

https://youtu.be/4WCDgJSCQpc

[lotusland]

Do you have K’s cell number? I saw him glance briefly at his phone right around when you posted during the in-game thread. Did you first post on DBR then text him that same info?

I know one of K’s daughters, but she only occasionally has talked about Dad over the years — and I never bring him up. I don’t want to cross that line. I wish I had his cell number like you do, though. There have been so many times where I would have liked to discuss the team with him. I’m positive he would have loved to have gotten my input. 😉

I’ve got a great story about K that I’ll probably share someday. It involves the father of a Duke Med classmate/friend of my wife and a letter he (the father) sent to Coach K wherein he gives advice on how to improve the teams FT shooting. Classic stuff.

K texts me for in-game advice all the time. For instance, I told him to shut down the Capel chants by the Crazies and to burn Joey’s redshirt. You’re welcome!

[arnie]

Our offense was bad -- probably our worst offensive performance of the season. Doesn't necessarily make it "ugly" or "hard to watch."

To me, an "ugly" game is a game with tons of turnovers and fouls, dumb plays and lack of effort. I didn't see that in this game.



I watch all the games that aren't exclusively on the ACC network. So, yes, I watched it.

Our defensive rebounding was fine -- not outstanding perhaps, but certainly not "sluggish." Our finishing at the rim was, as I mentioned in my earlier post, well below our season average, but I'd say that was due in part to BC clogging the lane with multiple players (possibly because we weren't hitting our outside shots). My recollection is most of Vernon's missed layups came while he was physically defended by three guys, and it's just not so easy to finish in that situation. Our offensive rebounding was also below average, but could also be explained by BC generally outnumbering us in the paint. And our defense was very good -- certainly not sluggish.

As far as BC not being "on top of their game," their defense was very successful (though it's hard to say how much of our offensive woes were due to their defensive prowess and how much to our own issues), and while BC was on offense they played pretty close to the same as they did the first time we played them:

DUKE'S DEFENSIVE STATS


BC I BC II
36.3% eFG% 39.0%
16.7% 3pt% 11.1%
40.9% 2pt% 48.8%
29.0% %three 30.5%
14.9% FTR 20.3%
70.5% Reb% 71.8%
25.8% TO% 24.1%
0.42:1 a/to 0.41:1
38.1% %asst 31.8%


In other words, BC played basically the same offense as the last time we played them (a little better, actually) and much better on defense -- so to me it's not an example of them not playing well and us getting lucky. Ultimately, I think a large part of the "ugliness" was we beat them by 40 last game and I guess people expected more of the same this time.

No I didn’t expect us to win by 40, but did expect a better game. Disagree with your take on the game as I thought one of our worst performances in several years. But you have your opinion, mine is radically different.

[miramar]

While being guarded by Division I college players? I've never met you but I'd bet against.

I think that they would leave me wide open and dare me to shoot, much like Cleveland did to Harrison Barnes in the 2016 NBA finals when he was with the Warriors.

Barnes shot 16% in the last three games and was punished with a four year, $94 million contract. Life ain't fair I tell ya.

[Kedsy]

No I didn’t expect us to win by 40, but did expect a better game. Disagree with your take on the game as I thought one of our worst performances in several years. But you have your opinion, mine is radically different.

Really? I don't even think it was our worst performance in the last three weeks (our offense in this game was slightly worse than against Clemson and Louisville, but our defense was much, much better). Not to mention the home loss to SF Austin. Or last season when we lost by 16 at home to UNC -- even without Zion, that was a very poor performance. Or getting beaten by a worse BC team in 2017-18, as well as a double-figure loss to a middling NC State team and a loss to a pretty bad St. John's team. There have been plenty of worse Duke performances in the past several seasons. Perhaps you've just pushed them out of your thoughts?

[jimsumner]

Is Matthew Hurt the new Shavlick Randolph? I mean he can't possibly believe he is a one and done at this stage? Can he?

Gutsy win by Duke on the road. Coach K was right. This was a trap game where we were looking ahead to playing the Tar Heels. Thankfully we pulled out the win. Tre Jones came up big.

I internally debated myself for about two minutes as to whether I should reference the correct spelling of Shavlik Randolph.

Guess, which side won? :)

[KandG]

great review K and G. Did it look like we were running many plays? To me, there is a direct correlation between a game where our guys are running a lot of plays and how well we play...or said another way...a game where all we doing is dribbling rather than passing equals a bad game for us. Haven't look at assists but bet there were not many?

It was mostly a lot of motion with four out, occasionally what looked like horns sets with Matthew and Vernon at the elbows. The overdribbling tended to come from the guys you'd expect trying to make one on one plays (Stanley, Moore) with mostly bad results, though to be fair, BC's defense was good in closing out on penetration for most of the game.

I didn't think the offense was terrible because of lack of plays per se, but the poor spacing and execution on some of the handoffs and entry passes. Missed shots obviously make the offense look worse than it actually is. We generated some good looks on three point shots and got some very open layups, but when they don't go down, it looks like bad offense.

The worst part of the offense IMO were the entry passes to Vernon, many of which were deflected or resulted in a turnover or rushed shot -- even one that resulted in an authoritative catch and finish to start the second half came from a sharp deflection. Some of that was BC's defense, some of it our team trying to force stuff that wasn't there.

[arnie]

Really? I don't even think it was our worst performance in the last three weeks (our offense in this game was slightly worse than against Clemson and Louisville, but our defense was much, much better). Not to mention the home loss to SF Austin. Or last season when we lost by 16 at home to UNC -- even without Zion, that was a very poor performance. Or getting beaten by a worse BC team in 2017-18, as well as a double-figure loss to a middling NC State team and a loss to a pretty bad St. John's team. There have been plenty of worse Duke performances in the past several seasons. Perhaps you've just pushed them out of your thoughts?

You continue to make definitive statements rather than expressing opinions. Feel free to define worse if you like. Maybe you should also look at previous definitive statements you made regarding Jordan Goldwire based on his recruiting ranking of all things. Those statements should be relegated to opinions, IMHO.😀

[KandG]

I think you have hit on a very important ingredient that might be missing on this team. So far we don't have a vocal leader that can help the team snap out of a funk. I think the player who could be that guy is Jack White. To me Jack looks like a natural leader but he isn't on the court enough to assume that role. I believe it should be Tre but he seems to be too quiet. When you look at this team none of the freshmen are vocal enough to be that guy. Vernon, Cassius, Matthew and Wendell. Maybe it could be Jordan who is getting a lot of minutes but would the team respond to him. Someone needs to step up and be the guy. I hope it turns out to be Tre because the other players will listen to him. He's shown that he can be clutch at the end of games and that should translate to being the leader of the team. One thing for sure, he's on the court for most of the game.


I think the older players on the squad all chip in with encouragement on the floor and on the bench, though from observing the action close up, it appears Tre and Jordan are the most vocal. Jordan actually made the biggest impression on me watching him closely: his composure as the person bringing the ball up much of the second half even as BC continued to hang in there was impressive, even when he blew a layup or gave one up on the other end or committed a foul. (Tre tends to wear his frustration on his sleeve more visibly)

I see Tre as the leader given his role on the team, with Jordan close behind given the role both guards play in leading the defense. But I can't speak to what goes on during bench huddles or in practices. This freshman group does seem quieter than previous iterations from my observation, but that's purely speculation on my part.

[COYS]

To bring a somewhat objective measure into this debate, Bart Torvik’s game score measure rates the BC game as Duke’s 4th worst effort of the season. Clemson and SFA come in almost tied for the worst with game scores in the high 50’s. Louisville narrowly edges BC for third worst 75-76 (lower is better*).

http://barttorvik.com/team.php?year=2020&team=Duke

*As I understand it, game score is intended to be read as a percentile. In other words, a game score of 99 means that a team played like you would expect a team in the top percent of college basketball to play. For reference, last year’s one point win against Wake at home was our worst performance of the season per Game Score. It ranked in the 44th percentile for the 18-19 season, which is actually worse than our loss to SFA, even if the storyline will never reflect that. Lest you fear that a poor performance is some sort of indicator, the 2015 team laid a gigantic egg against Miami at home early in the ACC season with a game score of 48 and still managed to put together an epic tourney run.

[Saratoga2]

It was mostly a lot of motion with four out, occasionally what looked like horns sets with Matthew and Vernon at the elbows. The overdribbling tended to come from the guys you'd expect trying to make one on one plays (Stanley, Moore) with mostly bad results, though to be fair, BC's defense was good in closing out on penetration for most of the game.

I didn't think the offense was terrible because of lack of plays per se, but the poor spacing and execution on some of the handoffs and entry passes. Missed shots obviously make the offense look worse than it actually is. We generated some good looks on three point shots and got some very open layups, but when they don't go down, it looks like bad offense.

The worst part of the offense IMO were the entry passes to Vernon, many of which were deflected or resulted in a turnover or rushed shot -- even one that resulted in an authoritative catch and finish to start the second half came from a sharp deflection. Some of that was BC's defense, some of it our team trying to force stuff that wasn't there. That neither

Watching Duke games like this makes me believe that neither Matthew or Wendell will progress enough (or show the obvious potential) to be drafted into the NBA this seaon. Both have talent but not honed enough to warrant the draft in my opinion. Probably Vernon and Tre will be high enough in the draft to leave and Cassius has such outrageous athletic ability he might be chosen on potential.

With the 6 guys coming in, a physically stronger Matthew, a more experienced Wendell plus AOC, Jordan and Joey we will have 11 guys capable of earning minutes. If there is a weak spot it for a backup big man. Haven't heard much about our red shirt Keenan. but he qualifies for size with ability unknown.

[dukelifer]

Is Matthew Hurt the new Shavlick Randolph? I mean he can't possibly believe he is a one and done at this stage? Can he?

Gutsy win by Duke on the road. Coach K was right. This was a trap game where we were looking ahead to playing the Tar Heels. Thankfully we pulled out the win. Tre Jones came up big.

When did he or anyone in the program say he was one and done?

[hustleplays]

I think the older players on the squad all chip in with encouragement on the floor and on the bench, though from observing the action close up, it appears Tre and Jordan are the most vocal. Jordan actually made the biggest impression on me watching him closely: his composure as the person bringing the ball up much of the second half even as BC continued to hang in there was impressive, even when he blew a layup or gave one up on the other end or committed a foul. (Tre tends to wear his frustration on his sleeve more visibly)

I see Tre as the leader given his role on the team, with Jordan close behind given the role both guards play in leading the defense. But I can't speak to what goes on during bench huddles or in practices. This freshman group does seem quieter than previous iterations from my observation, but that's purely speculation on my part.

I believe that both of you have hit on a critical point -- the need for a vocal leader. Would you agree that it's not just TALK, it's talk with POWER. When the leader talks, the teammates LISTEN...and react. All of our best teams -- scratch that -- ALL top, championship caliber teams have that. Leaders who will get in your face and make "non-negotiable demands." :-) Mixing inspiration and fury, these leaders compel their teammates to get out of their individual funks and get back into the game with full energy and commitment.

We have had so many leaders like that -- Hurley, Laettner, Wojo, Langdon, Battier...and many others.

Coach K speaks to that directly in his book, "Leading with the Heart." [p 30 ff.] One of K's initial leadership tasks with each new team is to find the person with the heart. This is a very high and special standard for K -- it's not that the others are all wimps. Given what has tragically inspired recently, let's call it the Mamba effect. By both example and in-your-face confrontation, Kobe would not accept listless, less-than-your-best individual effort and team play.

I think it's too early in the season -- this season -- to ask, "Who's got the Heart?" [coach K's definition]. With some past teams, it's been obvious from the get go. [See: Greg Paulus] Later on with more ACC games under our belt, let's revisit the question. My main point here is that great teams have leaders who when they talk their teammates have no choice but to respond.

Also, I strongly prefer that Duke win. A W is a W. However, I like quality basketball even more. In my strong and not humble opinion, that was not a quality basketball game. Even when the stats are not ugly, the eyeballs show ugly [sluggishness, poor body language, missed defensive assignments, stagnation/hesitation on offense OR movement without much purpose, chucking Hail Mary's to Vernon, and missed layups]. I have loved college b-ball for decades. I have mentally adjusted to what I see, but I can't not think of what it would be like to see our talented frosh in their junior or senior years. Pardon the nostalgia.

Go Duke!

[duke2x]

Just got back from the game, which as usual had a very healthy Duke contingent. In fact, when the game started and Duke went down 12-2, a couple of late arriving BC fans nearby joked that the scoreboard operator must have mixed up the teams...which wasn't exactly a vote of confidence for their team to start.

In fairness to the BC crowd, they got considerably louder in the second half, to the point that after Vernon got his fourth foul on a very lazy pursuit of a loose ball after a missed layup, I actually thought Duke could lose. Eventually, a big "Let's Go Duke" chant filled the arena after we pulled in front and looked like we were on our way to winning (think it was right after the Joey Baker steal), after which the BC crowd attempted to drown it out with a "Let's Go Eagles" chant. Hey, it was more entertaining than most of this hideous game.


I know I shouldn't worry about such things, but, as the second half wore on, I was more almost as concerned about potentially snapping the at-least-one-made-three-point-shot streak as I was about losing the game. Sure, losing the game would have more effect on the current season, but 1000+ game streaks don't come along often.


To all those people talking about how "ugly" this game was, I think it boils down to just two things: a very slow start and poor three-point shooting. And I don't think either of those things really made the game "ugly." In conclusion, I suppose "ugliness" is in the eye of the beholder, but I personally didn't think this game was as ugly as apparently a lot of others did.

The shooting was absolutely ugly even in warmups before both halves. I've seen Duke have no problem shooting and scoring 80+ points up there. My response for about 24 hours was to check the rims; they had to have been barely legal on the opposite grade from Cameron. (Note that I don't think Jim Christian would cheat. UNC is a different story.) It does diminish BC's efforts, particularly defensively.

This team is very prone to slow starts, particularly on the road, and that may end our season. We've had hills to climb against VT, BC, Syracuse, GT, Clemson, and Louisville. This team also does not respond well when it struggles from 3 early. A win any night is worth more than the 3-point record that we discuss. Similarly, I would have traded our winning streak in Cameron for a win against SFA. :confused:

If you think getting to Cameron is bad for a 7PM game, I have to think BC is equal or worse at rush hour. Public transit is very convenient and cute on the clanging trolley, but it takes over an hour. The gym was mostly empty for most of the first half despite selling out.

[BandAlum83]

Glad Duke won but man was that tough to watch. Duke looked sluggish for about 35 minutes of the game. It seemed for much of the game Duke was its own worst enemy. Good to know that everyone from Duke can have an off night and they can still gut out a win.

Is it just me or does Vern get mauled everytime he touches the ball? I know he's a big dude but a foul is still a foul right? If the refs are not going to call that stuff, he's going to have to be better at finishing through contact.

I seem to recall a lot of posts like this a year ago with Zion as the subject.

[Tooold]

I seem to recall a lot of posts like this a year ago with Zion as the subject.

I think anytime there is a dominant big man, they will get hacked. Remember the complaints from LSU and Shaq? We notice it when it is our player. While I do think they could call more lot fouls on his defender, I have taken K’s comments in his presser to heart...VC will not get the foul calls if he gets the ball and simply tries to “shoot”. K says in that situation they are playing good, physical Defense. VC WILL get the calls (and hopefully the basket) when he tries to “score”.