Kobe Bryant: RIP

[JasonEvans]

Reports that Kobe has died in a copter crash. Checking for details

[Moderator edit: To those responding, PLEASE ensure you have verified information when posting. We will delete posts containing unverified information. Thanks. - devil84]

[chris13]

Anyone else see this?

https://variety.com/2020/biz/news/kobe-bryant-dead-helicopter-crash-lakers-1203480844/

[Boswell]

Killed in a helicopter crash.

https://www.tmz.com/2020/01/26/kobe-bryant-killed-dead-helicopter-crash-in-calabasas/

[Acymetric]

Hearing the same thing. Can we maybe change the thread title to something slightly more...tasteful and informative?

Maybe use the title from Chris13's thread when the multiple threads get merged.

[Acymetric]

Yes, I've seen it in several places (although they all used TMZ as the source). Really terrible assuming it's true, and weird timing with LeBron just having passed him in points.

[JasonEvans]

CNN is reporting 5 people are dead in a helicopter crash off Malibu, not saying Kobe was among the victims... yet.

[Acymetric]

Recommend adding "in helicopter crash" to title...reads like someone shot him or something currently.

[Billy Dat]

This news is hitting and hitting hard. What a terrible tragedy. He was allegedly going to be a member of the Brotherhood, and certainly became a member of K's extended family with his play on Team USA. This is so so sad. A very dark day for basketball fans everywhere.

[dukelifer]

CNN is reporting 5 people are dead in a helicopter crash off Malibu, not saying Kobe was among the victims... yet.

Just said it- very sad.

[Bob Green]

Devastating news.

Helicopters are dangerous. I’ve flown in them many times...never voluntarily...moving from ship to ship at sea when I was attached to a Mobile Technical Unit.

Stay out of them.

[proelitedota]

Oh man. Please don't let ABC news be true.

EDIT: ABC News tweet deleted. Thank god.

[duke4ever19]

R.I.P. Mamba.

I feel nauseous just typing that.

[dukebluesincebirth]

This is absolutely devastating. I have no thoughts right now, just tears.

[bjornolf]

So sad. Way too young.

[Edouble]

This is very upsetting.

I loved Kobe. He seemed like he really grew up, matured, in front of us, over his 20 year NBA career.

I remember my freshman year at Duke, Kobe's senior year of high school, Melvin Levitt telling the press, that Kobe wouldn't even start at Cincinnati.

Watching Kobe in one of his first games as a Laker in a friend's dorm room in Trent, my sophomore year at Duke.

Fast forward to Kobe wanting to D up the other team's best player in the 2008 Summer Games. Watching us beat Spain, with Kobe basically taking over in the final quarter, willing the US to a win, and me not being able to fall asleep afterwards at 4 in the morning.

Thanks for the memories, Mamba.

[proelitedota]

10150

[DukeWarhead]

Sad and angry, but nobody to be angry toward. Just hate to see it. Hopefully, his family will have all the support it needs to get through this. Will miss you, Kobe!

[devil84]

MOD NOTE:
I've added this to the first post, but for those of you reading along, please be sure that you have verified information before posting. I've deleted a few posts that contain unverified information about others on board. LOTS of information is flying around; let's make sure we have heard it from reputable sources, hopefully two of them, before posting.

Personal note:
This is so very, very tragic.

[Neals384]

Daughter Gianna, 13, also died in the crash.
https://www.tmz.com/2020/01/26/kobe-bryant-killed-dead-helicopter-crash-in-calabasas/

[Edouble]

https://heavy.com/sports/2020/01/rick-fox-not-dead/

https://twitter.com/CourtneyFallon_/status/1221531721688068096

For those that are trying to get a hold on what is a rumor and what is not, Rick Fox's daughter has confirmed that he was not on the helicopter and that he is alive.

[JasonEvans]

Emergency DBR podcast coming very soon. We just got off the phone with Nolan Smith, who knew Kobe fairly well.

[ehdg]

This is just very sad n devastating news. He was so young only 41. Just unbelievable to lose him so young n healthy.

[wavedukefan70s]

Stunned..

[weezie]

Our Jay Williams was clearly in shock during an interview just a few minutes ago. Mike Torrico had me tearing up.
God help Kobe's family. Please send them strength.

[bundabergdevil]

Daughter Gianna, 13, also died in the crash.
https://www.tmz.com/2020/01/26/kobe-bryant-killed-dead-helicopter-crash-in-calabasas/

Devastating that he was taking his daughter to play basketball. The photos and videos of the pair laughing and talking about basketball together are heartbreaking.

[JasonEvans]

In today’s game, the Raptors and Suns each took intentional 24 second violations on their fist possession... Kobe wore #24. What a fitting tribute.

[Edouble]

https://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/raptors-spurs-kobe-bryant-tribute-24-second-violation/535204

"The Toronto Raptors and San Antonio Spurs were among the first teams to tip off after news came through of Kobe Bryant’s death in a helicopter crash, and they paid tribute to him in an amazing way.

After winning the tip, Toronto Raptors guard Fred VanVleet simply stood near the timeline and let the shot clock run down, taking a 24-second violation as a nod to one of Bryant’s jersey numbers. On the ensuing Spurs possession, Dejounte Murray did the same as the crowd rose to its feet in a standing ovation while chanting Bryant’s name."

Brought tears to my eyes. Really beautiful tribute, IMO.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

This is just very sad n devastating news. He was so young only 41. Just unbelievable to lose him so young n healthy.

..and his daughter only 13 I think.....prayer up....shocking sad news.

[duke79]

Devastating news.

Helicopters are dangerous. I’ve flown in them many times...never voluntarily...moving from ship to ship at sea when I was attached to a Mobile Technical Unit.

Stay out of them.

Helicopters scare me...my brother always says about them: "too many moving parts".

Obviously, thoughts and prayers to Kobe's family. A terrible tragedy. Both Kobe and his 13-year old daughter and the others on the helicopter.

[Edouble]

Calabasas Sheriff's Dept just reported in their press conference that there were nine people: eight passengers plus the pilot, on the helicopter.

[Steven43]

I am in shock over the sudden and tragic death of Kobe Bryant. I’m a Boston Celtics fan from birth, but I’ve always had nothing but respect for Kobe’s contributions to the sport of basketball. His work ethic, competitive spirit, will to win, and sheer on-court brilliance were right up there with Larry Bird, Michael, Magic, Bill Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, LeBron, and Jerry West.

I’m in public right now and yet I can’t stop crying. This is such a massive loss to the world of sports. RIP, Kobe Bean.

[Furniture]

Shocked and very very sad....

[proelitedota]

RIP legend. Listening to the news DBR podcast right now.

[bundabergdevil]

Chronicle with K’s statement.

https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2020/01/duke-basketball-kobe-bryant-reaction

[TKG]

In today’s game, the Raptors and Suns each took intentional 24 second violations on their fist possession... Kobe wore #24. What a fitting tribute.

Pelicans and Celtics did the same.

[Devilwin]

In an age when so many of our sports stars are so smug and arrogant, Kobe was a truly nice guy. And he was at the pinnacle of his sport, mention his name with Bird, Jordan, Magic...

[mattyoung18]

Does anyone have a link or picture of Kobe messing up Coach Ks hair after the olympics That's a classic moment with 2 icons.

[TKG]

https://www.instagram.com/p/B7zNyAMJaSR/?igshid=10151.

[Edouble]

Latest from TMZ:

4:30 PM PT -- L.A. weather was extremely foggy Sunday morning, and law enforcement sources tell us even LAPD air support was grounded because of it. Flight tracker data shows Kobe's chopper appeared to first encounter weather issues as it was above the L.A. Zoo. It circled that area at least 6 times at a very low altitude -- around 875 feet -- perhaps waiting for the fog to clear.

We know the pilot contacted the control tower at Burbank Airport around 9:30 AM PT, and the tower was aware the pilot had been circling for about 15 minutes. The pilot eventually headed north along the 118 freeway before turning to the west, and started following above the 101 freeway around Woodland Hills, CA.

At around 9:40 AM they encounter more weather -- as in seriously heavy fog -- and the chopper turned south. This was critical, because they turned toward a mountainous area. The pilot suddenly and rapidly climbed from about 1200 feet up to 2000 feet.

However, moments later -- around 9:45 AM -- they flew into a mountain at 1700 feet. Flight tracker data shows they were flying at about 161 knots.

Note: I just looked it up and 161 knots is the equivalent of ~185 miles/hour

[bundabergdevil]

Latest from TMZ:

4:30 PM PT -- L.A. weather was extremely foggy Sunday morning, and law enforcement sources tell us even LAPD air support was grounded because of it. Flight tracker data shows Kobe's chopper appeared to first encounter weather issues as it was above the L.A. Zoo. It circled that area at least 6 times at a very low altitude -- around 875 feet -- perhaps waiting for the fog to clear.

We know the pilot contacted the control tower at Burbank Airport around 9:30 AM PT, and the tower was aware the pilot had been circling for about 15 minutes. The pilot eventually headed north along the 118 freeway before turning to the west, and started following above the 101 freeway around Woodland Hills, CA.

At around 9:40 AM they encounter more weather -- as in seriously heavy fog -- and the chopper turned south. This was critical, because they turned toward a mountainous area. The pilot suddenly and rapidly climbed from about 1200 feet up to 2000 feet.

However, moments later -- around 9:45 AM -- they flew into a mountain at 1700 feet. Flight tracker data shows they were flying at about 161 knots.

Note: I just looked it up and 161 knots is the equivalent of ~185 miles/hour

If I’m reading this right, implication is weather caused the pilot to lose bearings and fly into the mountain and not mechanical issues?

Planes obviously fly in bad weather, no visibility conditions all the time and pilots rely solely on instrument readings to fly. I imagine helicopters can do the same thing but the type of flying they’re doing makes it much more dangerous? Asking. Don’t know.

[bundabergdevil]

Not surprising given their closeness but Kyrie did not play tonight after he found out the news.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/kyrie-irving-kobe-bryant-death-222830632.html

[DangerDevil]

If I’m reading this right, implication is weather caused the pilot to lose bearings and fly into the mountain and not mechanical issues?

Planes obviously fly in bad weather, no visibility conditions all the time and pilots rely solely on instrument readings to fly. I imagine helicopters can do the same thing but the type of flying they’re doing makes it much more dangerous? Asking. Don’t know.

Helicopters can to.

Speculating but what probably happened is they were flying VFR (visual flight rules). Simplistically this means they were responsible for avoiding the ground and other aircraft on their own and not dependent on an Air Traffic Controller. This is easier and more expedient.

Along the way it sounds like the weather got worse than they expected. When that happens you can’t start flying IFR (instrument flight rules) immediately. You have to talk to the air traffic controller to get an IFR clearance.

If you encounter bad weather along your route you would try to orbit in VFR conditions until you received your IFR clearance. If you have mountainous terrain and crowded airspace like LA that makes a bad situation even worse.

[uh_no]

Helicopters can to.

Speculating but what probably happened is they were flying VFR (visual flight rules). Simplistically this means they were responsible for avoiding the ground and other aircraft on their own and not dependent on an Air Traffic Controller. This is easier and more expedient.

Along the way it sounds like the weather got worse than they expected. When that happens you can’t start flying IFR (instrument flight rules) immediately. You have to talk to the air traffic controller to get an IFR clearance.

If you encounter bad weather along your route you would try to orbit in VFR conditions until you received your IFR clearance. If you have mountainous terrain and crowded airspace like LA that makes a bad situation even worse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0pQfgi9ZqU

There is the ATC recording. I'm not sure I can bring my self to listen just yet, but there it is.

From glancing through the comments, it seems they were too low for flight following given the terrain, which means the center can't get a good read on their position, but not that a crash is imminent.

[Saratoga2]

Helicopters can to.

Speculating but what probably happened is they were flying VFR (visual flight rules). Simplistically this means they were responsible for avoiding the ground and other aircraft on their own and not dependent on an Air Traffic Controller. This is easier and more expedient.

Along the way it sounds like the weather got worse than they expected. When that happens you can’t start flying IFR (instrument flight rules) immediately. You have to talk to the air traffic controller to get an IFR clearance.

If you encounter bad weather along your route you would try to orbit in VFR conditions until you received your IFR clearance. If you have mountainous terrain and crowded airspace like LA that makes a bad situation even worse.

Whatever the cause its a sad day when people are taken suddenly. Celebrities like Kobe are at a higher risk just due to the amount of travel they need to do. He was truly one of the great ones and he will be missed.

[DUKIE V(A)]

A devastating reminder that tragedy can strike at any time no matter who you are...Very sobering and puts life in perspective...

[JNort]

I don't think I can discuss this right now but before I leave I just wanna say he will be missed and my thoughts are with those close to them during this time. That goes for all involved.

[uh_no]

I grew up watching kobe like many of us, and he undoubtedly was my favorite player. The thing that I'll miss the most, though, is his tweets about women's basketball. He wanted to see a world where his daughters could have a great opportunity to play the game as he and other guys do, and had the ability to help create awareness, so he did. He attended several uconn women's games with his daughter and often tweeted about great things that were happening in the women's game.

I've done plenty of dangerous things....backcountry skiing, bombing descents on a road bike...but one thing I wont regret if I never do is fly in a helicopter. Hopefully he lives on every time someone tosses something at a bin and shouts 'Kobe.'

He was never a dukie, but at times it was claimed he would have gone to duke had he played college ball (among other schools)...and given his relationship with the national team and K, I hope that there is at least a little something in remembrance on tuesday. Unfortunately, I won't be there, but I would likely be in tears.

RIP.

[bundabergdevil]

There's a lot of odd coincidence in the timing. Not that it is suspicious, just really sad/odd given much Kobe had been feted the previous night when Lebron passed him on the all-time scorers lists. Lebron spent a lot of time in an interview discussing Kobe and what he meant to him and Kobe reciprocated with a "passing of the torch" type tweet. Dwight Howard offered this quote about the evening which is sadly prescient: "We don’t appreciate each other as much as we should as a humanity. Something like that should be appreciated. We should appreciate people while they’re alive."

[Acymetric]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0pQfgi9ZqU

There is the ATC recording. I'm not sure I can bring my self to listen just yet, but there it is.

From glancing through the comments, it seems they were too low for flight following given the terrain, which means the center can't get a good read on their position, but not that a crash is imminent.

I didn't understand anything about what was happening there, but seeing the blip quietly disappear off the radar was pretty gut wrenching.

[bundabergdevil]

A nice article about the special relationship shared between Kobe and Kyrie (https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/nets/ny-kobe-bryant-kyrie-irving-friendship-helicopter-crash-20200127-pcm2lkdk7zbyph5ie4wo7rajzi-story.html). There's a paragraph in there about the various family tragedies Kyrie has experienced. Another reminder that these guys are pretty damn human.

[duketaylor]

"I hope that there is at least a little something in remembrance on tuesday. Unfortunately, I won't be there, but I would likely be in tears."

I'll be at my first CIS game in about 4 years Tuesday, and wondered ever since hearing of this tragedy, if Duke, K, would do something in remembrance and think certainly something will be done.

Looking forward to Tuesday, just sick of this news today.

[duke96]

Pretty amazing video comparison to Jordan

https://twitter.com/naima/status/1221593723290759168?s=21

[heyman25]

To me the saddest fact is the best was yet to come for Kobe Bryant and his daughter Gigi. Ionescu of Oregon received advice from Kobe about her game. He was a big promoter of women's basketball and already won an Oscar for an animation production.Just saw the Jerry West interview and he had the most eloquent comments that I heard today.

[heyman25]

This mentions other deceased passengers of the crash. Los Angeles Police Department spokesman Josh Rubenstein confirmed their Air Support Division was grounded Sunday, adding: 'The weather situation did not meet our minimum standards for flying.'
Initial reports claimed five people had been killed, but the death toll was raised to nine - including the pilot, named locally as Ara Zobayan. Among those also killed was John Altobelli, a baseball coach at Orange County College, his wife Keri and daughter Alyssa. Girls basketball coach Christina Mauser was also killed in crash.

On a personal note. I never met Kobe Bryant. In the 90's I did catering on Rodeo Drive for Planet Hollywood's grand opening. I saw Wilt Chamberlain and chatted with him. I told him that Kobe Bryant had broken his high school scoring record for Philadelphia. That was before Kobe went pro and Duke was in contention for his services. Wilt told me he was going to look into it. He did not remember Kobe's dad that was briefly a teammate.

[bundabergdevil]

Front page - Kobe is listed elsewhere as having been born in 1978 not 1980

[Edouble]

Front page - Kobe is listed elsewhere as having been born in 1978 not 1980

Yes, also helicopter crashed near Calabasas not Calabas.

Other than that, one of the best write ups I've seen on the front page in a while.

[bundabergdevil]

Yes, also helicopter crashed near Calabasas not Calabas.

Other than that, one of the best write ups I've seen on the front page in a while.

Agreed. A thoughtful and appropriate reflection on the man.

[phaedrus]

A nice article about the special relationship shared between Kobe and Kyrie (https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/nets/ny-kobe-bryant-kyrie-irving-friendship-helicopter-crash-20200127-pcm2lkdk7zbyph5ie4wo7rajzi-story.html). There's a paragraph in there about the various family tragedies Kyrie has experienced. Another reminder that these guys are pretty damn human.

A number of former Duke players have commented on social media about their relationships with Kobe. Ryan Kelly was his teammate in LA, and apparently put up 24 points in 24 minutes yesterday for his team in Japan; Jayson Tatum idolized Kobe growing up and modeled his game after Kobe's; Battier said that Kobe was his greatest adversary and a role model. There are probably others, but I'm struck (even though it shouldn't be surprising) by the impact Kobe had on Duke players.

[JasonEvans]

A number of former Duke players have commented on social media about their relationships with Kobe. Ryan Kelly was his teammate in LA, and apparently put up 24 points in 24 minutes yesterday for his team in Japan; Jayson Tatum idolized Kobe growing up and modeled his game after Kobe's; Battier said that Kobe was his greatest adversary and a role model. There are probably others, but I'm struck (even though it shouldn't be surprising) by the impact Kobe had on Duke players.

I posted it elsewhere, but I got an interview with Nolan Smith yesterday about an hour after the news broke that we used on the DBR podcast. He and Kobe had a bit of a relationship and Nolan shared a few nice stories.

https://soundcloud.com/dbrpodcast/dbr-podcast-186-rip-kobe-bryant

[bundabergdevil]

A number of former Duke players have commented on social media about their relationships with Kobe. Ryan Kelly was his teammate in LA, and apparently put up 24 points in 24 minutes yesterday for his team in Japan; Jayson Tatum idolized Kobe growing up and modeled his game after Kobe's; Battier said that Kobe was his greatest adversary and a role model. There are probably others, but I'm struck (even though it shouldn't be surprising) by the impact Kobe had on Duke players.

One of his final tweets was actually to congratulate Alana Beard on her retirement. He’d been doing a lot to promote the women’s game of late.

[DarkstarWahoo]

I have a Navy friend who wrote this: "My roommate from USNA is an aeronautical engineer and went straight into his masters after graduating, really competitive out of the academy. When he got to Pensacola for flight school he straight up refused to be considered for helicopters because he doesn’t trust/fully understand the stability of keeping those things in the air."

The other thing that I keep thinking is that you can't glide a helicopter to a survivable crash landing when something goes wrong, like you can with a plane. You're just going down. They're dangerous even when flown by experts in good conditions.

[Edouble]

I posted it elsewhere, but I got an interview with Nolan Smith yesterday about an hour after the news broke that we used on the DBR podcast. He and Kobe had a bit of a relationship and Nolan shared a few nice stories.

https://soundcloud.com/dbrpodcast/dbr-podcast-186-rip-kobe-bryant

Thank you, Jason. I enjoyed the podcast. Really.

I want to disagree with one thing though.

I don't think people, for the most part, forget Kobe's rookie struggles.

For me, and I can speak at least for my friends around my age as well, the (four) airball game against the Jazz is the first really important and memorable chapter of the Kobe story. I would be surprised if the Gen Xers and Boomers who were there to see it happen, forgot.

[chris13]

I thought this article, by Ramona Shelberne, written at the time Kobe retired from the Lakers and featuring extensive interviews with him, gives great insight into Kobe. http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story?_slug_=former-lakers-star-kobe-bryant-left-nba-just-getting-started&id=15232286&redirected=true

[scottdude8]

Extremely well done. I'm especially proud that the dark marks in Kobe's history were not entirely overlooked. I know that is an extremely complicated and touchy issue, and I don't want to open Pandora's box by getting into it or my thoughts on it in any detail. That said, I have been disappointed that the general reaction and media coverage has included almost no mention of this part of Kobe's past. No matter your opinions on those events, they are a part of his legacy, and seemingly scrubbing it entirely does history a disservice.

[robed deity]

Extremely well done. I'm especially proud that the dark marks in Kobe's history were not entirely overlooked. I know that is an extremely complicated and touchy issue, and I don't want to open Pandora's box by getting into it or my thoughts on it in any detail. That said, I have been disappointed that the general reaction and media coverage has included almost no mention of this part of Kobe's past. No matter your opinions on those events, they are a part of his legacy, and seemingly scrubbing it entirely does history a disservice.

Good post and this captures my thoughts also.

[jamos14]

Extremely well done. I'm especially proud that the dark marks in Kobe's history were not entirely overlooked. I know that is an extremely complicated and touchy issue, and I don't want to open Pandora's box by getting into it or my thoughts on it in any detail. That said, I have been disappointed that the general reaction and media coverage has included almost no mention of this part of Kobe's past. No matter your opinions on those events, they are a part of his legacy, and seemingly scrubbing it entirely does history a disservice.

I agree, it should be discussed. However, yesterday was not the correct day for it. Multiple families lost a child, sister, or parent. Anybody feeling the need to rub that in faces yesterday was incredibly tactless.

* I am not referencing this article but multiple tweets from yesterday by blue check marks.

[scottdude8]

[Redacted from deleted post]

USA Today had the best article I've read so far.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/columnist/nancy-armour/2020/01/27/kobe-bryant-dont-shy-away-nba-legends-legacy/4584605002/

Thanks for including this article, I hadn't seen it yet, and agree that it's very much worth a read.

[scottdude8]

In my opinion, he can be still truly be a good guy even with the sexual assault history. One mistake (albeit a huge one that hurt many people) shouldn't tarnish his entire life and character. As JD said in his article, we can hope that he truly repented and grew as a man/father because of this. That's something between him and God now. All we saw is his public life but he certainly seemed a much different man than he was at 25 when the assault occurred.

I think we need to avoid getting too much into the specifics here, our opinions, etc., or else we're going to go down a path that we don't want to as a board. Obviously we're all going to have a wide variety of opinions on such a complex issue. But having these debates on a message board, doing it via anonymous text rather than real conversation, is tempting fate and could lead to the devolution of this conversation rapidly. Let's all (including me!) try to keep that in mind going forward.

[BLPOG]

I have a Navy friend who wrote this: "My roommate from USNA is an aeronautical engineer and went straight into his masters after graduating, really competitive out of the academy. When he got to Pensacola for flight school he straight up refused to be considered for helicopters because he doesn’t trust/fully understand the stability of keeping those things in the air."

The other thing that I keep thinking is that you can't glide a helicopter to a survivable crash landing when something goes wrong, like you can with a plane. You're just going down [emphasis added by BLPOG]. They're dangerous even when flown by experts in good conditions.

I am not an expert, but that's a little misleading. I think modern helicopters pretty much all have autorotation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorotation) capability. It's the analogue to gliding, though I'd imagine it's usually harder to perform an autorotation emergency landing than a gliding emergency landing.

[arnie]

Thanks for including this article, I hadn't seen it yet, and agree that it's very much worth a read.

https://balldurham.com/2020/01/27/duke-basketball-kobe-bryant-odd-stats/

Interesting and heart warming comments from Ryan Kelly’s wife. Didn’t realize Ryan’s connections to Kobe.

[uh_no]

I am not an expert, but that's a little misleading. I think modern helicopters pretty much all have autorotation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorotation) capability. It's the analogue to gliding, though I'd imagine it's usually harder to perform an autorotation emergency landing than a gliding emergency landing.

further, autorotation is part of the examination to get a license.

https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/test_standards/media/faa-s-8081-20.pdf

[DangerDevil]

I am not an expert, but that's a little misleading. I think modern helicopters pretty much all have autorotation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorotation) capability. It's the analogue to gliding, though I'd imagine it's usually harder to perform an autorotation emergency landing than a gliding emergency landing.

Yes all helicopters have the ability to autorotate, however in a real emergency an autorotation would be a crapshoot even for the best pilot. Simplistically an autorotation is the helicopter’s answer to “gliding” when there is a loss of engine power. There are certain circumstances where a helicopter wouldn’t have the ability to autorotate, ie something catastrophic happening to the rotor system or the hydraulic system/flight controls seizing. When you autorotate you decrease the lift demand on the rotors and let the air resistance maintain the inertia on the rotor blades in an attempt to flare/cushion the landing/impact. During that flare you also bleed off of your ground speed.

Helicopters biggest enemy is the fact that usually operate so close to the ground and therefore have very little time to react to an emergency. What is worse a helicopter or airplane emergency? It depends, helicopters don’t need a runway to land but they usually have less time/limited distance to figure out where to try to land.

Pure guess on my part but it sounds like weather was the factor in this case. From the ATC recordings already released they were operating in SVFR (Special Visual Flight Rules) conditions, that means the weather conditions were below VFR flight conditions.

From the picture of the crash site and the lack of intact helicopter, it looks like the helicopter was still traveling at a very high rate of speed when it made impact. If they tried to autorotate or make an emergency landing it still could have been catastrophic but there typically would have been a more intact fuselage.

[kAzE]

It's so hard to put into words what Kobe meant to millions of people around the world. It's heartbreaking. What a sad day for the world, to lose a man who had achieved so much and still had so much potential left. RIP Kobe, and thank you for everything you gave us.

[Acymetric]

Pure guess on my part but it sounds like weather was the factor in this case. From the ATC recordings already released they were operating in SVFR (Special Visual Flight Rules) conditions, that means the weather conditions were below VFR flight conditions.

From the picture of the crash site and the lack of intact helicopter, it looks like the helicopter was still traveling at a very high rate of speed when it made impact. If they tried to autorotate or make an emergency landing it still could have been catastrophic but there typically would have been a more intact fuselage.

Yeah, it seems pretty clear that weather was a significant factor. It definitely appears that it wasn't so much "helicopter in distress crash lands" so much as "helicopter that can't see/lost its bearings in the fog runs head on into a hill". I don't think autorotation was in play here. Looking at the videos/photos...that thing was completely demolished.

Circumstances are disconcertingly similar to the death of one of my favorite guitar players/musicians, Stevie Ray Vaughan.

[DangerDevil]

Extremely well done. I'm especially proud that the dark marks in Kobe's history were not entirely overlooked. I know that is an extremely complicated and touchy issue, and I don't want to open Pandora's box by getting into it or my thoughts on it in any detail. That said, I have been disappointed that the general reaction and media coverage has included almost no mention of this part of Kobe's past. No matter your opinions on those events, they are a part of his legacy, and seemingly scrubbing it entirely does history a disservice.

Agreed for the most part.

Definitely not the majority of the coverage but there has been a fair amount of coverage/reporters/players that acknowledged Kobe’s past mistakes. I didn’t dislike Kobe but wasn’t a fan either (Celtics’ fan), however I acknowledge his place in basketball greatness. What I found the most impressive/sad about the incident were the reporters/players that appear to be friendly with Kobe that weren’t afraid to point out the incident in Colorado or acknowledge his other mistakes or past shortcomings but rather claim that those were part of him and that he had learned from those mistakes and was better for it. His life appeared to be following the same upward trajectory that his pro basketball career did. My takeaway from the accident/Kobe’s life was anyone can make mistakes, we can all learn to get better from our life experiences even if we are great at parts of it, and live life to the fullest because we don’t know what the future holds.

[Steven43]

In my opinion, he can be still truly be a good guy even with the sexual assault history. One mistake (albeit a huge one that hurt many people) shouldn't tarnish his entire life and character. As JD said in his article, we can hope that he truly repented and grew as a man/father because of this. That's something between him and God now. All we saw is his public life but he certainly seemed a much different man than he was at 25 when the assault occurred.
I didn’t realize Kobe was convicted of sexual assault. I had thought the charges were dropped,

[DangerDevil]

I didn’t realize Kobe was convicted of sexual assault. I had thought the charges were dropped,

The criminal case was dismissed but there was a civil suit settled outside of court.

[rocketeli]

The criminal case was dismissed but there was a civil suit settled outside of court.

long story short. She said he raped her, he said it was consensual. A settlement was negotiated where she agreed (most likely in a wink-wink fashion) not to cooperate with the criminal investigation and Kobe paid her a large sum of money and issued an apology stated that while he did truly think it was consensual he acknowledged that she truly thought it was not. Make of it what you will.
I agree, it's there, but people can grow and change, and the deaths of people close to me have thought me how it absurd it is to judge a person by their worst moment. By that criterion we're all going straight to hell.

[dukebluesincebirth]

It's so hard to put into words what Kobe meant to millions of people around the world. It's heartbreaking. What a sad day for the world, to lose a man who had achieved so much and still had so much potential left. RIP Kobe, and thank you for everything you gave us.

+1
I loved him as a player, but had become even more inspired by him after retirement (which is very unique for me in my sports following). I loved basketball growing up (and still do), played organized ball all the way through high school (not college scholarship material), and now have 2 young daughters. I'm not that into any social media platforms, but about a year ago started following Kobe on instagram. All I see is pics of him and his girls, celebrating them for who they are and all of their milestones. Seeing his basketball-related interactions with his daughter always makes me think, I want to do that with MY daughters, that's super cool. I'm 40, Kobe was 41. I guess I started looking up to him as a family man once I had children and was interested in his interactions with his daughters. Kobe's inspiration for me is to pursue excellence at everything you set out to accomplish, go 110% whether it be basketball or fatherhood. Go hard. Every day. He said he always wanted to be remembered as a player who never wasted a day. He said that even though he knew he was talented, he always worked as if he had no talent at all. He practiced bball as if he were the 12th man at the end of the bench, even when he was the best on the planet. The fact that his daughter Gigi seemed to be learning and adopting her father's mentality in pursuit of excellence in basketball was adorable and awesome to me. He recently said that she had pushed him to get the NBA league pass on his phone, and that they sat down to watch NBA games almost every night (he said he hadn't really watched much basketball before she got so interested). They had a budding relationship, and to see them both go so tragically on the way to her game is absolutely heartbreaking. What could've been...This one will stay on my mind for a long while. RIP Mamba.

Side note: for those feeling a need to point out Kobe's possible life mistakes the day (or day after) he and his daughter died, please take a look in the mirror and think about your own life mistakes...think about dying tomorrow, what you would like folks to say about you? Be respectful.

[scottdude8]

Everyone is making extremely cogent, calm, and well-thought points on this subject. It's part of why I love this board; anywhere else this would've gone way off the rails already.

As mentioned previously, I don't want to go in-depth into my opinion on the matter because I'm not sure this is the appropriate setting (I was going to say forum, but that would certainly have been a bad choice of words, haha) to get into such an important, emotional, and nuanced discussion. But (since it seems like the discussion is happening despite my best intentions, so my apologies!), all I'll add is that I think it's very important to consider how the incident in Colorado, and perhaps the coverage/lack-thereof over the past days, affected/is affecting the accuser and might be affecting others who have had similar traumatic experiences.

[BLPOG]

Question for DangerDevil or another knowledgeable person...

Why not, in poor visibility conditions due to fog, just fly higher? Is there an issue with the helicopter's flight ceiling? Other air traffic? Do I not understand how fog works?

[uh_no]

Question for DangerDevil or another knowledgeable person...

Why not, in poor visibility conditions due to fog, just fly higher? Is there an issue with the helicopter's flight ceiling? Other air traffic? Do I not understand how fog works?

other airtraffic or having to stay below controlled airspace are the two concerns. The ATC video talks about burbank IFR airspace, which they would not have been able to enter without explicit permission to transition across it.

That said, I'm not familiar enough with the area to know exactly how ATC manages the airspace in that region, but in any case, you generally cleared for VFR up to a given altitude and have to request permission to exceed it.

[DangerDevil]

Question for DangerDevil or another knowledgeable person...

Why not, in poor visibility conditions due to fog, just fly higher? Is there an issue with the helicopter's flight ceiling? Other air traffic? Do I not understand how fog works?

Numerous reasons depending on the situation

In this case i would guess it was one of two main factors.

Some places you can’t fly IFR. A helicopter would be able to fly to a bunch of places like that, such as a non runway. I haven’t heard where they were trying to land but if there was a helipad near the Mamba Academy there was a good chance that it wouldn’t have had an instrument approach they could follow to touchdown. The only safe way to accomplish that would be to fly VFR.

The other reason is ease/expediency. When you fly IFR there is protection built in between the aircraft and that makes things slower and less direct.

[MChambers]

Extremely well done. I'm especially proud that the dark marks in Kobe's history were not entirely overlooked. I know that is an extremely complicated and touchy issue, and I don't want to open Pandora's box by getting into it or my thoughts on it in any detail. That said, I have been disappointed that the general reaction and media coverage has included almost no mention of this part of Kobe's past. No matter your opinions on those events, they are a part of his legacy, and seemingly scrubbing it entirely does history a disservice.

My attitude exactly. I found most of the media coverage very disappointing for its lack of balance. The DBR piece and the USA Today piece were the best that I have read.

[Acymetric]

My attitude exactly. I found most of the media coverage very disappointing for its lack of balance. The DBR piece and the USA Today piece were the best that I have read.

I don't think I've heard anyone talk about it today who didn't bring that up, including both national and local figures.

[scottdude8]

I don't think I've heard anyone talk about it today who didn't bring that up, including both national and local figures.

That's great to hear. I haven't seen much coverage today, so I was only commenting based on what I saw/read yesterday.

[Acymetric]

That's great to hear. I haven't seen much coverage today, so I was only commenting based on what I saw/read yesterday.

That is true. I'll say that I think it is both important that it be a part of the discussion about him and his legacy, and appropriate that it is being brought up today as people discuss the accident, and also that I don't think it is problematic that it wasn't part of the discussion in the literal hours following the crash and deaths (I also don't have a problem with people who did​ bring it up in the immediate aftermath, I just don't think it is fair to criticize the people who didn't), especially since many of those media figures are people that had at least some degree of personal relationship with the man after covering him for years. And now I will slowly back away from this line of discussion.

[DangerDevil]

other airtraffic or having to stay below controlled airspace are the two concerns. The ATC video talks about burbank IFR airspace, which they would not have been able to enter without explicit permission to transition across it.

That said, I'm not familiar enough with the area to know exactly how ATC manages the airspace in that region, but in any case, you generally cleared for VFR up to a given altitude and have to request permission to exceed it.

My previous post explained why you would choose to fly VFR/SVFR, that wasn’t exactly your question.

If you weren’t flying IFR and lost visual references that is know as going inadvertent IMC. If that happens you would try to climb and turn away from known hazards. If you are in mountainous terrain or busy airspace that makes a bad situation even worse.

The worse the conditions get, ie the lower the clouds get and lower the visibility gets; the lower to the ground you actually fly in an attempt to maintain your visual references. That means you have very little time to react if you loose your outside references.

[jimmymax]

I blame the car and tire industries that gutted public transit and created LA's ongoing freeway nightmare, leading to the super rich commuting by helicopter. Lesson learned: own the helicopter and put the pilot on staff. Who Ubers by chopper? Admittedly I was never a Kobe fan: he shot too much and the Colorado episode sealed the deal. Sad to be sure though.

[jv001]

+1
I loved him as a player, but had become even more inspired by him after retirement (which is very unique for me in my sports following). I loved basketball growing up (and still do), played organized ball all the way through high school (not college scholarship material), and now have 2 young daughters. I'm not that into any social media platforms, but about a year ago started following Kobe on instagram. All I see is pics of him and his girls, celebrating them for who they are and all of their milestones. Seeing his basketball-related interactions with his daughter always makes me think, I want to do that with MY daughters, that's super cool. I'm 40, Kobe was 41. I guess I started looking up to him as a family man once I had children and was interested in his interactions with his daughters. Kobe's inspiration for me is to pursue excellence at everything you set out to accomplish, go 110% whether it be basketball or fatherhood. Go hard. Every day. He said he always wanted to be remembered as a player who never wasted a day. He said that even though he knew he was talented, he always worked as if he had no talent at all. He practiced bball as if he were the 12th man at the end of the bench, even when he was the best on the planet. The fact that his daughter Gigi seemed to be learning and adopting her father's mentality in pursuit of excellence in basketball was adorable and awesome to me. He recently said that she had pushed him to get the NBA league pass on his phone, and that they sat down to watch NBA games almost every night (he said he hadn't really watched much basketball before she got so interested). They had a budding relationship, and to see them both go so tragically on the way to her game is absolutely heartbreaking. What could've been...This one will stay on my mind for a long while. RIP Mamba.

Side note: for those feeling a need to point out Kobe's possible life mistakes the day (or day after) he and his daughter died, please take a look in the mirror and think about your own life mistakes...think about dying tomorrow, what you would like folks to say about you? Be respectful.

Good post. I'm glad my God is a forgiving God. Prayers for all the families that were affected by this tragic accident.

GoDuke!

[budwom]

Extremely well done. I'm especially proud that the dark marks in Kobe's history were not entirely overlooked. I know that is an extremely complicated and touchy issue, and I don't want to open Pandora's box by getting into it or my thoughts on it in any detail. That said, I have been disappointed that the general reaction and media coverage has included almost no mention of this part of Kobe's past. No matter your opinions on those events, they are a part of his legacy, and seemingly scrubbing it entirely does history a disservice.

Indeed. I was discussing this with my wife last night as some folks on the NBC Evening News were talking about what a great family man he was. Told my wife there needed to be an asterisk there. He could well have ended up in a Colorado prison.
I agree that it's complicated and touchy, but it needs to be acknowledged.

[Phredd3]

NBC Evening News were talking about what a great family man he was. ... He could well have ended up in a Colorado prison.

I don't think those are inconsistent statements, although it is important, in my opinion, not to reverse the chronology. He definitely could have ended up doing a little probation or community service, and at worst some jail time. He also was fined $100K by the NBA for using a homophobic slur against a referee.

But it's nevertheless also true that very much seems to have been a great family man. His interest in the WNBA seems to have been partially driven by his desire to see his daughters able to follow an athletic career path if they so chose. And just two years after he used a homophobic slur, he chided a Twitter follower of his for doing the same thing. When someone Tweeted back the criticism that he'd done that, too, he replied, "Exactly! That wasn’t cool and was ignorant on my part. I own it and learn from it and expect the same from others."

That, as much as anything else about him, made him an admirable figure to me.

[MartyClark]

Indeed. I was discussing this with my wife last night as some folks on the NBC Evening News were talking about what a great family man he was. Told my wife there needed to be an asterisk there. He could well have ended up in a Colorado prison.
I agree that it's complicated and touchy, but it needs to be acknowledged.

His legacy is complicated. It's impossible to know what happened that night in Vail. He hired a powerful Denver law firm to bulldoze an inexperienced Eagle County prosecutor. He may have been innocent, maybe not. Somehow, in death, he has largely escaped the vilification that most accused sexual offenders receive.

[budwom]

That is fair...though I remember being repulsed at the time as Kobe returned home after the Colorado incident and bought his wife a $4 million, eight carat diamond...something right out of Male Bad Behavior 101.
p.s. the alleged victim did get a sizable settlement of a couple million bucks (it is estimated).

[MartyClark]

His legacy is complicated. It's impossible to know what happened that night in Vail. He hired a powerful Denver law firm to bulldoze an inexperienced Eagle County prosecutor. He may have been innocent, maybe not. Somehow, in death, he has largely escaped the vilification that most accused sexual offenders receive.

Duke side note to Kobe's criminal defense. The defense firm's senior partner is Hal Haddon, Duke law grad, editor in chief of the Duke Law Review, #1 in his class of 1966.

[Acymetric]

I don't think those are inconsistent statements, although it is important, in my opinion, not to reverse the chronology. He definitely could have ended up doing a little probation or community service, and at worst some jail time. He also was fined $100K by the NBA for using a homophobic slur against a referee.

But it's nevertheless also true that very much seems to have been a great family man. His interest in the WNBA seems to have been partially driven by his desire to see his daughters able to follow an athletic career path if they so chose. And just two years after he used a homophobic slur, he chided a Twitter follower of his for doing the same thing. When someone Tweeted back the criticism that he'd done that, too, he replied, "Exactly! That wasn’t cool and was ignorant on my part. I own it and learn from it and expect the same from others."

That, as much as anything else about him, made him an admirable figure to me.

Agreed. He certainly made some mistakes and bad decisions, at the very least, but he appears to have actually learned from them and made himself a better person, which is commendable. He wouldn't be the first one to be a better person at 40 than at 24.


His legacy is complicated. It's impossible to know what happened that night in Vail. He hired a powerful Denver law firm to bulldoze an inexperienced Eagle County prosecutor. He may have been innocent, maybe not. Somehow, in death, he has largely escaped the vilification that most accused sexual offenders receive.

I don't think that has much to do with his death, if anything his death has sparked more discussion about the incident (and how it would be perceived if it had happened today) than there has been in the past 10-12 years. The reason he escaped that vilification is just that things were different in 2003 than they are now, in terms of how scandals like this are treated and reacted to. We probably need to leave it there (please no discussion on the merits of these social changes!), but this certainly isn't the only example of those changes. Consider Big Ben as another example of "the reaction sure would have been different if it happened today".

[DarkstarWahoo]

His legacy is complicated. It's impossible to know what happened that night in Vail. He hired a powerful Denver law firm to bulldoze an inexperienced Eagle County prosecutor. He may have been innocent, maybe not. Somehow, in death, he has largely escaped the vilification that most accused sexual offenders receive.

I'm seeing so many references to Bryant being "complex" in tweets that it's starting to bother me. It feels like that's how the collective has decided to recognize the fact that he might have also been a rapist within the bounds of 280 characters. And since everyone is saying it, hey, safety in numbers. We're all complex. Find a better descriptor. (Directed at the Twitter folks, not you, Marty.)

[MartyClark]

Agreed. He certainly made some mistakes and bad decisions, at the very least, but he appears to have actually learned from them and made himself a better person, which is commendable. He wouldn't be the first one to be a better person at 40 than at 24.



I don't think that has much to do with his death, if anything his death has sparked more discussion about the incident (and how it would be perceived if it had happened today) than there has been in the past 10-12 years. The reason he escaped that vilification is just that things were different in 2003 than they are now, in terms of how scandals like this are treated and reacted to. We probably need to leave it there (please no discussion on the merits of these social changes!), but this certainly isn't the only example of those changes. Consider Big Ben as another example of "the reaction sure would have been different if it happened today".

Fair and wise comments.

Thanks.

[JNort]

I don't think those are inconsistent statements, although it is important, in my opinion, not to reverse the chronology. He definitely could have ended up doing a little probation or community service, and at worst some jail time. He also was fined $100K by the NBA for using a homophobic slur against a referee.

But it's nevertheless also true that very much seems to have been a great family man. His interest in the WNBA seems to have been partially driven by his desire to see his daughters able to follow an athletic career path if they so chose. And just two years after he used a homophobic slur, he chided a Twitter follower of his for doing the same thing. When someone Tweeted back the criticism that he'd done that, too, he replied, "Exactly! That wasn’t cool and was ignorant on my part. I own it and learn from it and expect the same from others."

That, as much as anything else about him, made him an admirable figure to me.
Careful, woke people hate being told other people can change and grow for the better. As I only briefly said in the thread talking about our decade accomplishments, I've changed a lot and done a crap ton of work to get where I am. What helped the most is being around people who want to help you learn and change not those who wanna beat a dead horse about your beliefs and actions from years and years gone by. He should be remembered for what he became not what he was, I get using his past to explain his growth but that's about it.


Anyway I'm gonna check out again for a while. Still trying to process this. He was my first athlete I truly enjoyed and he was a huge for who I am today.

[MChambers]

I don't think I've heard anyone talk about it today who didn't bring that up, including both national and local figures.

I've been avoiding TV and radio for a while now, so missed that, but I'm glad to know that.

[Edouble]

That is fair...though I remember being repulsed at the time as Kobe returned home after the Colorado incident and bought his wife a $4 million, eight carat diamond...something right out of Male Bad Behavior 101.
p.s. the alleged victim did get a sizable settlement of a couple million bucks (it is estimated).

Vanessa sure wore that thing around in public though. I mean, it was clear that was part of their settlement.


Somehow, in death, he has largely escaped the vilification that most accused sexual offenders receive.

It's been talked about more in the past 24 hours than it has been in the last 10 years.

And he's just that... accused.

[scottdude8]

This conversation seems to be starting to veer away from constructive and cordial into personal and political (not quoting anyone because it’s not any one person at fault). Let’s all keep in mind that equally well-intentioned, well-informed, kind and thoughtful people may have differing opinions on something as complex as this.

Human beings can also hold many complex thoughts and emotions in their mind at one time: you can both mourn for the loss and simultaneously think critically about a particular aspect of the reaction/coverage of this loss.

I know this is like walking on eggshells for all of us, but let’s just remember we’re all on team DBR.

[MartyClark]

Vanessa sure wore that thing around in public though. I mean, it was clear that was part of their settlement.



It's been talked about more in the past 24 hours than it has been in the last 10 years.

And he's just that... accused.

With all due respect, I completely understand the difference between being accused and being found guilty.

My comments, I hope, were reasonable. I'm not looking to vilify him or argue with you.

[kAzE]

I'm seeing so many references to Bryant being "complex" in tweets that it's starting to bother me. It feels like that's how the collective has decided to recognize the fact that he might have also been a rapist within the bounds of 280 characters. And since everyone is saying it, hey, safety in numbers. We're all complex. Find a better descriptor. (Directed at the Twitter folks, not you, Marty.)

I don't think that's true at all. Kobe lived a life since he was a kid pushing himself to be better than the greatest basketball player of all time. That is going to lead to having a very complex personality. A lot of people had a hard time understanding his feelings and motivations. It led to a lot of confrontation in his life, including his split with Shaq.

I'm kind of shocked that anyone would jump to this conclusion. We're talking about a man who literally passed away yesterday. Let's be respectful.

[MartyClark]

I don't think that's true at all. Kobe lived a life since he was a kid pushing himself to be better than the greatest basketball player of all time. That is going to lead to having a very complex personality. A lot of people had a hard time understanding his feelings and motivations. It led to a lot of confrontation in his life, including his split with Shaq.

I'm kind of shocked that anyone would jump to this conclusion. We're talking about a man who literally passed away yesterday. Let's be respectful.

Shocked at what conclusion? I agree that we should be respectful.

[Edouble]

With all due respect, I completely understand the difference between being accused and being found guilty.

My comments, I hope, were reasonable. I'm not looking to vilify him or argue with you.

I actually meant to disagree with you, somewhat, on one hand... I think Kobe's past transgressions have been made more of in the past 24 hours than they have been in some time.

I also meant to agree with you on the other hand, and point out your precise and correct wording, as others on this thread have been off the mark.

I can see now how that may not have been clear.

[kAzE]

Shocked at what conclusion? I agree that we should be respectful.

That "complex" is a euphemism on social media for "maybe rapist."

Sorry if I misunderstood the post, but I'm struggling to find any other way to interpret it.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Kobe has earned the reception he's getting.

[MartyClark]

That "complex" is a euphemism on social media for "maybe rapist."

Sorry if I misunderstood the post, but I'm struggling to find any other way to interpret it.

Please read my posts carefully. I don't think I ever used the words "complex". I did use the word "complicated" and use Kobe may have been a rapist.

[Acymetric]

ESPN showing Kobe's final game at 9:00 tonight.

[DukieInKansas]

ESPN showing Kobe's final game at 9:00 tonight.

I believe Ryan Kelly is the player that comes in for Kobe for the final substitution in the game.

[kAzE]

Please read my posts carefully. I don't think I ever used the words "complex". I did use the word "complicated" and use Kobe may have been a rapist.

I was clearly talking about DarkStarWahoo's post?

[uh_no]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhYxBzJEUr8

[nmduke2001]

Gianna Bryant dreamed of playing at UConn. She and Kobe had visited to watch a game and meet the team and Gino. Tonight, UConn left a place on the bench with a Bryant number 2 UConn Jersey and flowers on it. Well done and heart wrenching.

[rsvman]

Please read my posts carefully. I don't think I ever used the words "complex". I did use the word "complicated" and use Kobe may have been a rapist.

Complex, from com (together) and plectere (to weave or braid), the latter part also is the root of the word "plait."

Complicated, from com (together) and plicare (to fold), the latter the root of "ply" in the sense of one ply or two ply, and also of pleat, as in the fold in the leg of your pants.

Complicated thus means folded together, while complex means braided together. I have to admit that the meaning of the two words is impressively similar.

By the way, simple is essentially "without folds"; implicate is "folded in."

Sorry if I took this too far off topic. I love words.

[uh_no]

Gianna Bryant dreamed of playing at UConn. She and Kobe had visited to watch a game and meet the team and Gino. Tonight, UConn left a place on the bench with a Bryant number 2 UConn Jersey and flowers on it. Well done and heart wrenching.

I said it up thread, but his support of women's basketball, and his support daughters aspirations at it are what I'll miss the most.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Kobe was a great basketball player - there's no debate from anyone on that. People in the media referring to him as a consummate family man seem to be bending over backwards to ignore certain details.

A person can be a great athlete, a mostly very good person, and still have some massive mistakes in their past. These things aren't mutually exclusive.

[Indoor66]

A person can be a great athlete, a mostly very good person, and still have some massive mistakes in their past. These things aren't mutually exclusive.

And massive mistakes can be overcome by subsequent behavior. Forgiveness, it seems to me, can be both granted and earned.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

And massive mistakes can be overcome by subsequent behavior. Forgiveness, it seems to me, can be both granted and earned.

I don't feel that this is the time or place to dwell on this argument any more than it is the time or place to whitewash his past.

Regardless, I feel "complex" is a quite fair word to use.

[Acymetric]

Kobe was a great basketball player - there's no debate from anyone on that. People in the media referring to him as a consummate family man seem to be bending over backwards to ignore certain details.

A person can be a great athlete, a mostly very good person, and still have some massive mistakes in their past. These things aren't mutually exclusive.

People can make huge mistakes and still grow to be great parents/people later in life.


I don't feel that this is the time or place to dwell on this argument any more than it is the time or place to whitewash his past.

Agreed, maybe time to drop it.

[DarkstarWahoo]

I don't feel that this is the time or place to dwell on this argument any more than it is the time or place to whitewash his past.

Regardless, I feel "complex" is a quite fair word to use.

My feelings on the word are just that some media members seem to be using it as a way to wave a hand at the rape allegations without having to fully engage with them. I can't divine motivation (specifically whether it's out of avoidance, respect for the dead, or some combination thereof), but the spread of the word across Twitter has irked me. It's a lazy word choice by people who are paid for their choice of words (and this is kind of a hobbyhorse of mine, and I recognize that better-adjusted individuals don't see the need to devote mental energy to word choice in day-of-death tweets, and they are probably making the right choice).

[jv001]

And massive mistakes can be overcome by subsequent behavior. Forgiveness, it seems to me, can be both granted and earned.

My wife who I consider to be a Godly woman and who doesn't like sports but does like Duke basketball and Duke football, said this to me last night after learning of Kobe's accused rape charge. "People can change in 16 years". Let the family have some peace over his death. She's right you know. People can change. It's not Kobe's fault some of the media want to paint him as a perfect family man. It seems from all I've read about Kobe, he loved his family and took care of them. None of us know what goes on behind other people's closed doors. I just need to be sure what goes on behind my closed doors is decent and good.

GoDuke!

[scottdude8]

jv001, I really appreciate your point and the articulate way you make it. I think we’re hitting on a larger debate that has perplexed philosophers, politicians, and lawyers for generations: should punishment be retributive (ie painful, to dissuade others from doing something similar and make us as a society feel better) or restorative (ie designed to “rehabilitate”, for lack of a better word, someone who has wronged society and allow them to better themselves). What types of crimes merit what type of punishment from the government (and, in the modern age, what type of reaction from society) is a very complicated question that reasonable people can disagree on.

However, there’s something important about this specific instance that is getting lost a bit that troubles me. The alleged event, the years since, and the coverage in the past few days isn’t just about Kobe and those in his orbit. How it affects the accuser, and also anyone who has been a victim of assault for whom these events might trigger post-traumatic feelings, must also be considered. Again, reasonable people can disagree about how to balance those two different perspectives. But I don’t think completely ignoring the feelings and emotions of victims of assault during this time is the right thing. It’s easy for this to happen accidentally and without malice, since Kobe is the celebrity and the center of the story (we’re all only human after all), but the story isn’t just about him.

Hopefully that will be my final word on this subject. Just wanted to again say that while we obviously all don’t agree on this, I’m proud of how we’ve maintained civility on the board. DBR is the best.

[Acymetric]

Obviously a lot of athletes and celebrities do stuff like this, but still, pretty cool story about Kobe and a terminal kid.

https://twitter.com/truemira/status/1221998699662004226?s=20

[DukieInKansas]

Obviously a lot of athletes and celebrities do stuff like this, but still, pretty cool story about Kobe and a terminal kid.

https://twitter.com/truemira/status/1221998699662004226?s=20

I sure wish my office wasn't so dusty - it's making my eyes water. Thank you for sharing this.

[Billy Dat]

I have found that once Sunday turned to Monday and now today, there has been a lot more nuanced discussion of the dark side of Kobe, including the sexual assault charges.

Zach Lowe had Rachel Nichols and Ramona Shelburne on his podcast to talk about Kobe, and they devoted a section of the talk to his dark side
http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=28577857

I would describe both women as people he was very close to as far as media members (or as close as he would get to anyone, he wasn't exactly Magic Johnson in terms of being a social butterfly), and I would also describe them both as strong feminists who wouldn't give him a pass on the rape charges.

What they both said was that no matter the trouble he would get into, and they added his use of an anti-gay slur against a referee and his immediate response to the Trayvon Martin killing which was unpopular among a lot of the black community (so I read), that he always made a sincere attempt to educate himself with his usual thoroughness to better understand the issue. What they described wasn't lip service but real commitment to try and improve himself. So, while his negative acts will always be a part of his story, I respect that he didn't try to hide from those acts.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Anyone who is interested and wants to watch, Dan Lebetard's Highly Questionable on Monday with Bomani and Dominique Foxworth is all Kobe and a really solid balanced look and Kobe and his legacy.

[scottdude8]

Anyone who is interested and wants to watch, Dan Lebetard's Highly Questionable on Monday with Bomani and Dominique Foxworth is all Kobe and a really solid balanced look and Kobe and his legacy.

Nice. Is there a link to a clip perhaps? The one piece of TV I miss up in Canada is the constant background sports noise that the ESPN talking heads provide haha

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Nice. Is there a link to a clip perhaps? The one piece of TV I miss up in Canada is the constant background sports noise that the ESPN talking heads provide haha

I was able to watch on the ESPN app.

[scottdude8]

I was able to watch on the ESPN app.

Cool. May have to break out the ol’ VPN, haha.

[uh_no]

I'm probably going to be the most open that I've ever been on this board, and perhaps the most open I ever will be. Perhaps Ironically also most floating the line of the board decorum which I generally ardently defend.

I was raised in a catholic family, and I don't pretend to be the most devout catholic on the face of the earth...but the biggest thing that I took with me to my adult life was the idea of forgiveness. I grew up while Pope John Paul II was still pope-ing, and while not alive for it, was certainly familiar with the attempt on his life in the early 80's. I was always inspired by the relationship he ended up having with his would-be assassin, to the degree that the assailant wished the pontiff well when he was afflicted with the illness that ultimately killed him. That sentiment was possible not because the pope demanded he be locked up and shamed for his actions, but because of forgiveness.

Another anecdote that sticks with me is the behavior of the families of the victims after the nickel mines shooting, who found it in themselves to forgive the murderer of their children.

I don't pretend to have all the answers. I don't pretend to know what it's like to be raped, or to have one of my family murdered...not in the slightest, and for that I am incredibly thankful. But given the option to, I can't imagine hating for the rest of my life. It seems like such a burden to hate. As I said, It's unimaginable to me how hard it would be to NOT hate, but given the anecdotes above, I know that it is possible to not do so, even in the most extreme of circumstances. I firmly believe it is possible to protect the public while not being overly punitive, and that this country largely fails at that. I don't pretend that it is easy to do at a large scale, but it also bothers me the "revenge culture" that often pervades discourse.

My opinion of Kobe Bryant is less shaped by what he did or did not do, but what he has done since. There are several articles out there that describe the changes he made after some of his lesser infractions, such as his homophobic comments, and if those articles are even half true, it seems that he is the kind of person who would be remorseful of committing rape.

None of this diminishes the impact on the victim. As I stated above, I can't imagine what that feels like. But I also can't imagine that discrediting what he has done since is valuable to anyone. I can't say what his victim might feel in the least, but given the anecdotes, I have trouble imagining seeking punitive punishment enough to erase what has seemingly occurred since.

Maybe Kobe should have spent some time behind bars. I don't know. But what I believe pretty strongly is that he clearly bettered himself, whatever he did, and that in hindsight, causing him to be locked up would not have prevented any further danger to the public. It's obviously impossible to know that in realtime, but in his case, we know it in hindsight.


So what do I ultimately think? Kobe, like the anecdotes above, exemplifies the positive of forgiveness and reinforces for me the possible good that is out there when people have opportunity to do better with their lives.

To be clear, it's not just because of the rich/famous factor. It saddens me every time people end up with lives tossed away in prison, and every time that internet tough-guys call for someone to be chucked away. Norway's recidivism rate is evidence that we CAN do better, and Kobe is evidence that the 'better' can sometimes be incredibly impactful. I'm skeptical that there will be a death in my lifetime that will evoke such a strong and sorrowful reaction among this country's public as Kobe's. Part of that is because of the untimely nature, but a large part of it is because of the positive impact he's had as a person on so many...especially after his transgressions. Maybe it's due to when I grew up, but I have a hard time believing even Michael Jordan would solicit such a reaction among the public and media at this point...not due to his play on the court, but due to the impact he has made on others.


As I said, I can't possibly imagine what it feels like to be raped, and to live with that the rest of my life. I also can't imagine what it feels like to want to harbor so much hate as to dismiss such overwhelming good one has done. Kobe screwed up, to one degree or another. His opportunity and propensity for good was also so great that women's basketball teams were memorializing his death.


I don't know what argument I'm trying to make at this point. Maybe I'll get flames for this post. Maybe I'll get an infraction. Maybe I'll get justifiable messages from victims with whom I could never empathize, but none of that will take away the sadness I feel that I'll never see Kobe at a women's basketball game again. Never will I see him trying to make a better environment for his daughter to star in the game, and never will I see her put on a college uniform, and to me, that is sorrow-worthy, regardless of circumstance.

Most importantly, though, if I am ever such a victim, may I have the strength to forgive and help my perpetrator be a better person than he or she was. For whatever reason, Kobe's did, and the world was better for it.

[Steven43]

I'm probably going to be the most open that I've ever been on this board, and perhaps the most open I ever will be. Perhaps Ironically also most floating the line of the board decorum which I generally ardently defend.

I was raised in a catholic family, and I don't pretend to be the most devout catholic on the face of the earth...but the biggest thing that I took with me to my adult life was the idea of forgiveness. I grew up while Pope John Paul II was still pope-ing, and while not alive for it, was certainly familiar with the attempt on his life in the early 80's. I was always inspired by the relationship he ended up having with his would-be assassin, to the degree that the assailant wished the pontiff well when he was afflicted with the illness that ultimately killed him. That sentiment was possible not because the pope demanded he be locked up and shamed for his actions, but because of forgiveness.

Another anecdote that sticks with me is the behavior of the families of the victims after the nickel mines shooting, who found it in themselves to forgive the murderer of their children.

I don't pretend to have all the answers. I don't pretend to know what it's like to be raped, or to have one of my family murdered...not in the slightest, and for that I am incredibly thankful. But given the option to, I can't imagine hating for the rest of my life. It seems like such a burden to hate. As I said, It's unimaginable to me how hard it would be to NOT hate, but given the anecdotes above, I know that it is possible to not do so, even in the most extreme of circumstances. I firmly believe it is possible to protect the public while not being overly punitive, and that this country largely fails at that. I don't pretend that it is easy to do at a large scale, but it also bothers me the "revenge culture" that often pervades discourse.

My opinion of Kobe Bryant is less shaped by what he did or did not do, but what he has done since. There are several articles out there that describe the changes he made after some of his lesser infractions, such as his homophobic comments, and if those articles are even half true, it seems that he is the kind of person who would be remorseful of committing rape.

None of this diminishes the impact on the victim. As I stated above, I can't imagine what that feels like. But I also can't imagine that discrediting what he has done since is valuable to anyone. I can't say what his victim might feel in the least, but given the anecdotes, I have trouble imagining seeking punitive punishment enough to erase what has seemingly occurred since.

Maybe Kobe should have spent some time behind bars. I don't know. But what I believe pretty strongly is that he clearly bettered himself, whatever he did, and that in hindsight, causing him to be locked up would not have prevented any further danger to the public. It's obviously impossible to know that in realtime, but in his case, we know it in hindsight.


So what do I ultimately think? Kobe, like the anecdotes above, exemplifies the positive of forgiveness and reinforces for me the possible good that is out there when people have opportunity to do better with their lives.

To be clear, it's not just because of the rich/famous factor. It saddens me every time people end up with lives tossed away in prison, and every time that internet tough-guys call for someone to be chucked away. Norway's recidivism rate is evidence that we CAN do better, and Kobe is evidence that the 'better' can sometimes be incredibly impactful. I'm skeptical that there will be a death in my lifetime that will evoke such a strong and sorrowful reaction among this country's public as Kobe's. Part of that is because of the untimely nature, but a large part of it is because of the positive impact he's had as a person on so many...especially after his transgressions. Maybe it's due to when I grew up, but I have a hard time believing even Michael Jordan would solicit such a reaction among the public and media at this point...not due to his play on the court, but due to the impact he has made on others.


As I said, I can't possibly imagine what it feels like to be raped, and to live with that the rest of my life. I also can't imagine what it feels like to want to harbor so much hate as to dismiss such overwhelming good one has done. Kobe screwed up, to one degree or another. His opportunity and propensity for good was also so great that women's basketball teams were memorializing his death.


I don't know what argument I'm trying to make at this point. Maybe I'll get flames for this post. Maybe I'll get an infraction. Maybe I'll get justifiable messages from victims with whom I could never empathize, but none of that will take away the sadness I feel that I'll never see Kobe at a women's basketball game again. Never will I see him trying to make a better environment for his daughter to star in the game, and never will I see her put on a college uniform, and to me, that is sorrow-worthy, regardless of circumstance.

Most importantly, though, if I am ever such a victim, may I have the strength to forgive and help my perpetrator be a better person than he or she was. For whatever reason, Kobe's did, and the world was better for it.
Well done 👍🏻. A thoughtful and thought-provoking post.

[BLPOG]

I'm probably going to be the most open that I've ever been on this board, and perhaps the most open I ever will be. Perhaps Ironically also most floating the line of the board decorum which I generally ardently defend.

I was raised in a catholic family, and I don't pretend to be the most devout catholic on the face of the earth...but the biggest thing that I took with me to my adult life was the idea of forgiveness. I grew up while Pope John Paul II was still pope-ing, and while not alive for it, was certainly familiar with the attempt on his life in the early 80's. I was always inspired by the relationship he ended up having with his would-be assassin, to the degree that the assailant wished the pontiff well when he was afflicted with the illness that ultimately killed him. That sentiment was possible not because the pope demanded he be locked up and shamed for his actions, but because of forgiveness.

Another anecdote that sticks with me is the behavior of the families of the victims after the nickel mines shooting, who found it in themselves to forgive the murderer of their children.

I don't pretend to have all the answers. I don't pretend to know what it's like to be raped, or to have one of my family murdered...not in the slightest, and for that I am incredibly thankful. But given the option to, I can't imagine hating for the rest of my life. It seems like such a burden to hate. As I said, It's unimaginable to me how hard it would be to NOT hate, but given the anecdotes above, I know that it is possible to not do so, even in the most extreme of circumstances. I firmly believe it is possible to protect the public while not being overly punitive, and that this country largely fails at that. I don't pretend that it is easy to do at a large scale, but it also bothers me the "revenge culture" that often pervades discourse.

My opinion of Kobe Bryant is less shaped by what he did or did not do, but what he has done since. There are several articles out there that describe the changes he made after some of his lesser infractions, such as his homophobic comments, and if those articles are even half true, it seems that he is the kind of person who would be remorseful of committing rape.

None of this diminishes the impact on the victim. As I stated above, I can't imagine what that feels like. But I also can't imagine that discrediting what he has done since is valuable to anyone. I can't say what his victim might feel in the least, but given the anecdotes, I have trouble imagining seeking punitive punishment enough to erase what has seemingly occurred since.

Maybe Kobe should have spent some time behind bars. I don't know. But what I believe pretty strongly is that he clearly bettered himself, whatever he did, and that in hindsight, causing him to be locked up would not have prevented any further danger to the public. It's obviously impossible to know that in realtime, but in his case, we know it in hindsight.


So what do I ultimately think? Kobe, like the anecdotes above, exemplifies the positive of forgiveness and reinforces for me the possible good that is out there when people have opportunity to do better with their lives.

To be clear, it's not just because of the rich/famous factor. It saddens me every time people end up with lives tossed away in prison, and every time that internet tough-guys call for someone to be chucked away. Norway's recidivism rate is evidence that we CAN do better, and Kobe is evidence that the 'better' can sometimes be incredibly impactful. I'm skeptical that there will be a death in my lifetime that will evoke such a strong and sorrowful reaction among this country's public as Kobe's. Part of that is because of the untimely nature, but a large part of it is because of the positive impact he's had as a person on so many...especially after his transgressions. Maybe it's due to when I grew up, but I have a hard time believing even Michael Jordan would solicit such a reaction among the public and media at this point...not due to his play on the court, but due to the impact he has made on others.


As I said, I can't possibly imagine what it feels like to be raped, and to live with that the rest of my life. I also can't imagine what it feels like to want to harbor so much hate as to dismiss such overwhelming good one has done. Kobe screwed up, to one degree or another. His opportunity and propensity for good was also so great that women's basketball teams were memorializing his death.


I don't know what argument I'm trying to make at this point. Maybe I'll get flames for this post. Maybe I'll get an infraction. Maybe I'll get justifiable messages from victims with whom I could never empathize, but none of that will take away the sadness I feel that I'll never see Kobe at a women's basketball game again. Never will I see him trying to make a better environment for his daughter to star in the game, and never will I see her put on a college uniform, and to me, that is sorrow-worthy, regardless of circumstance.

Most importantly, though, if I am ever such a victim, may I have the strength to forgive and help my perpetrator be a better person than he or she was. For whatever reason, Kobe's did, and the world was better for it.

At a (perhaps) substantial tangent, I would like to post a poem about the loss of a human life, that captures my own thoughts as they relate to a more generalized case.

No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend’s
Or of thine own were:
Any man’s death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.

- John Donne (1572-1631)

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

Per Shams, Quinn Cook is changing his number to 28, a blend of Gigi’s and Kobe’s numbers.

[DarkstarWahoo]

I liked what Nick Bosa, of all people, had to say when asked about it at Super Bowl media day. A reporter asked him if he was going to go for eight sacks as a tribute to Kobe. His response: "Why not 24?"

[SupaDave]

I'm probably going to be the most open that I've ever been on this board, and perhaps the most open I ever will be. Perhaps Ironically also most floating the line of the board decorum which I generally ardently defend.

I was raised in a catholic family, and I don't pretend to be the most devout catholic on the face of the earth...but the biggest thing that I took with me to my adult life was the idea of forgiveness. I grew up while Pope John Paul II was still pope-ing, and while not alive for it, was certainly familiar with the attempt on his life in the early 80's. I was always inspired by the relationship he ended up having with his would-be assassin, to the degree that the assailant wished the pontiff well when he was afflicted with the illness that ultimately killed him. That sentiment was possible not because the pope demanded he be locked up and shamed for his actions, but because of forgiveness.

Another anecdote that sticks with me is the behavior of the families of the victims after the nickel mines shooting, who found it in themselves to forgive the murderer of their children.

I don't pretend to have all the answers. I don't pretend to know what it's like to be raped, or to have one of my family murdered...not in the slightest, and for that I am incredibly thankful. But given the option to, I can't imagine hating for the rest of my life. It seems like such a burden to hate. As I said, It's unimaginable to me how hard it would be to NOT hate, but given the anecdotes above, I know that it is possible to not do so, even in the most extreme of circumstances. I firmly believe it is possible to protect the public while not being overly punitive, and that this country largely fails at that. I don't pretend that it is easy to do at a large scale, but it also bothers me the "revenge culture" that often pervades discourse.

My opinion of Kobe Bryant is less shaped by what he did or did not do, but what he has done since. There are several articles out there that describe the changes he made after some of his lesser infractions, such as his homophobic comments, and if those articles are even half true, it seems that he is the kind of person who would be remorseful of committing rape.

None of this diminishes the impact on the victim. As I stated above, I can't imagine what that feels like. But I also can't imagine that discrediting what he has done since is valuable to anyone. I can't say what his victim might feel in the least, but given the anecdotes, I have trouble imagining seeking punitive punishment enough to erase what has seemingly occurred since.

Maybe Kobe should have spent some time behind bars. I don't know. But what I believe pretty strongly is that he clearly bettered himself, whatever he did, and that in hindsight, causing him to be locked up would not have prevented any further danger to the public. It's obviously impossible to know that in realtime, but in his case, we know it in hindsight.


So what do I ultimately think? Kobe, like the anecdotes above, exemplifies the positive of forgiveness and reinforces for me the possible good that is out there when people have opportunity to do better with their lives.

To be clear, it's not just because of the rich/famous factor. It saddens me every time people end up with lives tossed away in prison, and every time that internet tough-guys call for someone to be chucked away. Norway's recidivism rate is evidence that we CAN do better, and Kobe is evidence that the 'better' can sometimes be incredibly impactful. I'm skeptical that there will be a death in my lifetime that will evoke such a strong and sorrowful reaction among this country's public as Kobe's. Part of that is because of the untimely nature, but a large part of it is because of the positive impact he's had as a person on so many...especially after his transgressions. Maybe it's due to when I grew up, but I have a hard time believing even Michael Jordan would solicit such a reaction among the public and media at this point...not due to his play on the court, but due to the impact he has made on others.


As I said, I can't possibly imagine what it feels like to be raped, and to live with that the rest of my life. I also can't imagine what it feels like to want to harbor so much hate as to dismiss such overwhelming good one has done. Kobe screwed up, to one degree or another. His opportunity and propensity for good was also so great that women's basketball teams were memorializing his death.


I don't know what argument I'm trying to make at this point. Maybe I'll get flames for this post. Maybe I'll get an infraction. Maybe I'll get justifiable messages from victims with whom I could never empathize, but none of that will take away the sadness I feel that I'll never see Kobe at a women's basketball game again. Never will I see him trying to make a better environment for his daughter to star in the game, and never will I see her put on a college uniform, and to me, that is sorrow-worthy, regardless of circumstance.

Most importantly, though, if I am ever such a victim, may I have the strength to forgive and help my perpetrator be a better person than he or she was. For whatever reason, Kobe's did, and the world was better for it.

A lot of assumption in this and seemingly a push for the advocation of rape victims. That's cool and understandable but quite frankly some of you are using his "dark side" to forget all that he did for other people and as a man.

And quite frankly, many in the basketball world - ESPECIALLY black males - don't believe he did it. So there's that part. I could go on a tirade about all of the black males who have been falsely accused of rape. Just another side for you to think about while you all seemingly focus on his "guilt."

Never forget that while you smear the man just hours after his death that his accuser had her own flaws (and motives).

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/defense-someone-elses-semen/

[uh_no]

A lot of assumption in this and seemingly a push for the advocation of rape victims. That's cool and understandable but quite frankly some of you are using his "dark side" to forget all that he did for other people and as a man.

And quite frankly, many in the basketball world - ESPECIALLY black males - don't believe he did it. So there's that part. I could go on a tirade about all of the black males who have been falsely accused of rape. Just another side for you to think about while you all seemingly focus on his "guilt."


The post was about forgiveness, not smearing, and perhaps this was less aimed at me than a group as a whole. A careful reading of what I wrote reveals that never do I presume his guilt in that matter. The possibility of false accusations, with which I'm more familiar with than I care to share publicly on this board (and not only due to Duke's public past), is all the more reason for moving away from the type of revenge-justice for which is often advocated.

[rsvman]

A lot of assumption in this and seemingly a push for the advocation of rape victims. That's cool and understandable but quite frankly some of you are using his "dark side" to forget all that he did for other people and as a man.

And quite frankly, many in the basketball world - ESPECIALLY black males - don't believe he did it. So there's that part. I could go on a tirade about all of the black males who have been falsely accused of rape. Just another side for you to think about while you all seemingly focus on his "guilt."

Never forget that while you smear the man just hours after his death that his accuser had her own flaws (and motives).

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/defense-someone-elses-semen/

I hear what you are saying, and agree for the most part, but it seems that you are aiming that at the wrong person. Send like a non sequitur.
The post you responded to was strongly in favor of people pushing past assumptions of guilt and allowing the idea that people can improve and change over time.
I know that you are saying that maybe he didn't need to, because maybe he didn't even do anything wrong. I get that. But in the end, both you and uh..no are essentially saying that people should celebrate the good and quit overemphasizing the possible bad.

For my part, I think everybody is flawed, and everybody does things they wish they hadn't done. (This goes for everybody. If the accusation was false, perhaps the woman who made it now regrets it; what do I know?) I certainly hope that when I die, people will largely focus on what I did right, rather than on the things I did wrong.

[scottdude8]

I'm probably going to be the most open that I've ever been on this board, and perhaps the most open I ever will be. Perhaps Ironically also most floating the line of the board decorum which I generally ardently defend.

I was raised in a catholic family, and I don't pretend to be the most devout catholic on the face of the earth...but the biggest thing that I took with me to my adult life was the idea of forgiveness. I grew up while Pope John Paul II was still pope-ing, and while not alive for it, was certainly familiar with the attempt on his life in the early 80's. I was always inspired by the relationship he ended up having with his would-be assassin, to the degree that the assailant wished the pontiff well when he was afflicted with the illness that ultimately killed him. That sentiment was possible not because the pope demanded he be locked up and shamed for his actions, but because of forgiveness.

Another anecdote that sticks with me is the behavior of the families of the victims after the nickel mines shooting, who found it in themselves to forgive the murderer of their children.

I don't pretend to have all the answers. I don't pretend to know what it's like to be raped, or to have one of my family murdered...not in the slightest, and for that I am incredibly thankful. But given the option to, I can't imagine hating for the rest of my life. It seems like such a burden to hate. As I said, It's unimaginable to me how hard it would be to NOT hate, but given the anecdotes above, I know that it is possible to not do so, even in the most extreme of circumstances. I firmly believe it is possible to protect the public while not being overly punitive, and that this country largely fails at that. I don't pretend that it is easy to do at a large scale, but it also bothers me the "revenge culture" that often pervades discourse.

My opinion of Kobe Bryant is less shaped by what he did or did not do, but what he has done since. There are several articles out there that describe the changes he made after some of his lesser infractions, such as his homophobic comments, and if those articles are even half true, it seems that he is the kind of person who would be remorseful of committing rape.

None of this diminishes the impact on the victim. As I stated above, I can't imagine what that feels like. But I also can't imagine that discrediting what he has done since is valuable to anyone. I can't say what his victim might feel in the least, but given the anecdotes, I have trouble imagining seeking punitive punishment enough to erase what has seemingly occurred since.

Maybe Kobe should have spent some time behind bars. I don't know. But what I believe pretty strongly is that he clearly bettered himself, whatever he did, and that in hindsight, causing him to be locked up would not have prevented any further danger to the public. It's obviously impossible to know that in realtime, but in his case, we know it in hindsight.


So what do I ultimately think? Kobe, like the anecdotes above, exemplifies the positive of forgiveness and reinforces for me the possible good that is out there when people have opportunity to do better with their lives.

To be clear, it's not just because of the rich/famous factor. It saddens me every time people end up with lives tossed away in prison, and every time that internet tough-guys call for someone to be chucked away. Norway's recidivism rate is evidence that we CAN do better, and Kobe is evidence that the 'better' can sometimes be incredibly impactful. I'm skeptical that there will be a death in my lifetime that will evoke such a strong and sorrowful reaction among this country's public as Kobe's. Part of that is because of the untimely nature, but a large part of it is because of the positive impact he's had as a person on so many...especially after his transgressions. Maybe it's due to when I grew up, but I have a hard time believing even Michael Jordan would solicit such a reaction among the public and media at this point...not due to his play on the court, but due to the impact he has made on others.


As I said, I can't possibly imagine what it feels like to be raped, and to live with that the rest of my life. I also can't imagine what it feels like to want to harbor so much hate as to dismiss such overwhelming good one has done. Kobe screwed up, to one degree or another. His opportunity and propensity for good was also so great that women's basketball teams were memorializing his death.


I don't know what argument I'm trying to make at this point. Maybe I'll get flames for this post. Maybe I'll get an infraction. Maybe I'll get justifiable messages from victims with whom I could never empathize, but none of that will take away the sadness I feel that I'll never see Kobe at a women's basketball game again. Never will I see him trying to make a better environment for his daughter to star in the game, and never will I see her put on a college uniform, and to me, that is sorrow-worthy, regardless of circumstance.

Most importantly, though, if I am ever such a victim, may I have the strength to forgive and help my perpetrator be a better person than he or she was. For whatever reason, Kobe's did, and the world was better for it.

This is an amazing post. I really have to commend your bravery to go into such detail regarding your personal experience and your thinking on this complicated matter. I've been purposely coy and obtuse about my feelings because I know I'm not brave enough to open myself up to the potential vitriol of the internet, so regardless of whether or not people agree with everything you said you should be commended for saying it in such an open and honest way.

Let me clarify one thing that I think people might have been misinterpreting about my posts (this may have been the cost of staying coy and obtuse, haha): just like uh_no, I'm not a fan of locking people up and throwing away the key. If anything I said was interpreted that way, regarding this situation or any other, I sincerely apologize.

In my various posts, I've been trying to add one additional thought/point/perspective to this conversation: I think (hope?) that, even in challenging times, we can hold complex and even contrasting thoughts and opinions on a single matter. We can grieve and celebrate while also acknowledging (not judge mind you, just acknowledge) the skeletons in one's closet. What I was trying to shed light on was the fact that, at least in the initial coverage (which, mind you, I'm again not judging, because after all we're all human and media coverage of a tragedy like this is a nigh-impossible task), only one part of the complex life Kobe lead was being told. Seeing that could have negative effects on victims of sexual assault that none of us could possibly understand.

Let's also remember that, as far as I know, a majority of people on this board (or, at minimum, a majority of the people commenting in this thread) are male. So there are aspects to this story that many of us couldn't possibly understand. I think simply acknowledging that limitation can go a long way, which is one of the great things about uh_no's post.

In short, I think keeping in mind the thoughts, feelings, and perspectives of others who may not be participating in this conversation, and may not be participating in the coverage at large (or, if they are, may not be comfortable expressing their full thoughts... just consider the case of the Washington Post columnist who, just by referencing this issue, received thousands of death threats) is something we can all strive to do better. It's challenging, and I'm not saying that even those who do so will necessarily come to the same conclusions and opinions. But it's a part of the conversation that I think we need to do our best not to leave out.

I'll end with another symbolic spork (as I already literally sporked) for uh_no's openness. Well done sir.

[SupaDave]

I hear what you are saying, and agree for the most part, but it seems that you are aiming that at the wrong person. Send like a non sequitur.
The post you responded to was strongly in favor of people pushing past assumptions of guilt and allowing the idea that people can improve and change over time.
I know that you are saying that maybe he didn't need to, because maybe he didn't even do anything wrong. I get that. But in the end, both you and uh..no are essentially saying that people should celebrate the good and quit overemphasizing the possible bad.

For my part, I think everybody is flawed, and everybody does things they wish they hadn't done. (This goes for everybody. If the accusation was false, perhaps the woman who made it now regrets it; what do I know?) I certainly hope that when I die, people will largely focus on what I did right, rather than on the things I did wrong.

Not directly aimed at him but it's for all of us. In fact - what's bolded is what I would like folks to remember in this forum as a whole. There will be more deaths. Will we bring up Shelden's past when he dies? Or Sheed? Let's choose to be the light.

[Billy Dat]

A lot of assumption in this and seemingly a push for the advocation of rape victims. That's cool and understandable but quite frankly some of you are using his "dark side" to forget all that he did for other people and as a man.

And quite frankly, many in the basketball world - ESPECIALLY black males - don't believe he did it. So there's that part. I could go on a tirade about all of the black males who have been falsely accused of rape. Just another side for you to think about while you all seemingly focus on his "guilt."

Never forget that while you smear the man just hours after his death that his accuser had her own flaws (and motives).

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/defense-someone-elses-semen/

That's very fair, SupaDave. As the poster who used "dark side", which, in retrospect, seems like a very poor choice, I think you bring up some extremely valid points. I was trying to defend Kobe, but you correctly pointed out some key aspects of the entire picture that I was not recognizing.

[DarkstarWahoo]

I was never a Kobe fan - I'm a Celtics guy - and I don't think it excuses what (likely) happened, but I could see, given Kobe's background, that that night might have been one of the first times he was faced with the idea of not getting something he wanted, no matter how much he wanted it. (I acknowledge that I am making some serious assumptions here, but think about how much the narrative about his career was just a relentless drive to get better and make his teammates better.) I could see him getting a serious wake-up call and coming away from the incident legitimately remorseful and more mature about sex and women. In fact, I think that fits very well with his late-career behavior (e.g. the gay slur to the ref and his response).

[jv001]

Not directly aimed at him but it's for all of us. In fact - what's bolded is what I would like folks to remember in this forum as a whole. There will be more deaths. Will we bring up Shelden's past when he dies? Or Sheed? Let's choose to be the light.

Love the sinner, hate the sin. I'm not saying Kobe was guilty of the crime when I say that. Remember the Duke lacrosse mess. RIP Kobe and all the people that lost their lives in this tragic accident. Praying for the families.

GoDuke!

[golfinesquire]

A lot of assumption in this and seemingly a push for the advocation of rape victims. That's cool and understandable but quite frankly some of you are using his "dark side" to forget all that he did for other people and as a man.

And quite frankly, many in the basketball world - ESPECIALLY black males - don't believe he did it. So there's that part. I could go on a tirade about all of the black males who have been falsely accused of rape. Just another side for you to think about while you all seemingly focus on his "guilt."

Never forget that while you smear the man just hours after his death that his accuser had her own flaws (and motives).

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/defense-someone-elses-semen/

And many women think he did it and are appalled at the scorched earth defense his legal team came up with to shred the reputation and the privacy of a 19 year old girl. And, don't get ME started on how often women who are raped get little or no protection from the judicial system.
For me, I feel that his legacy contains his bad moves as well and it is not improper to bring them up. I am happy to hear that he evolved and it was wonderful to read about what a devoted and loving parent he was. But when you talk about forgiveness and evolution, I have to roll my eyes. One should not need to "evolve," to know that forcible sex is a criminal act.

[SupaDave]

And many women think he did it and are appalled at the scorched earth defense his legal team came up with to shred the reputation and the privacy of a 19 year old girl. And, don't get ME started on how often women who are raped get little or no protection from the judicial system.
For me, I feel that his legacy contains his bad moves as well and it is not improper to bring them up. I am happy to hear that he evolved and it was wonderful to read about what a devoted and loving parent he was. But when you talk about forgiveness and evolution, I have to roll my eyes. One should not need to "evolve," to know that forcible sex is a criminal act.

One should not need to judge when you don't know what happened. There's that part...

[golfinesquire]

One should not need to judge when you don't know what happened. There's that part...

On both our sides. Goose/gander after all.

[SupaDave]

On both our sides. Goose/gander after all.

My side is one of positive energy after a man's death. Not sure which one you are on.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

One should not need to judge when you don't know what happened. There's that part...

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that while there might be some dispute about the consentuality of what happened, there is no dispute about the fact that he had sex with this young woman. While affairs seem to have been largely normalized these days and many would say that they are largely an issue between the husband and wife, for a sizable portion of the population, the term "family man" is incongruous with someone who had an affair. I do not follow Kobe that closely but from a distance, it seems that he has admirably atoned for this and moved on to lead a life that all would agree meets the definition of "family man," while also contributing to society in many other great ways. No one is perfect (he who has not sinned may cast the first stone) and different people are entitled to different values on this issue, but it occurred so descriptive language should be modified accordingly.

[bundabergdevil]

Absent a finding of guilty or not guilty in the case, many of us take Kobe’s letter at face value. He admits after reviewing discovery, etc that the woman involved believed the encounter was not consensual. Full statement below. Does the woman’s NDA expire with Kobe’s passing? I don’t want that to be insensitive but germane to this discussion as she’s not been able to share her version events after the criminal case was dismissed and the civil case concluded. It is possible we hear from her at some point in the future though I imagine the threats on her life would resume with vigor.


First, I want to apologize directly to the young woman involved in this incident. I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night and for the consequences she has suffered in the past year. Although this year has been incredibly difficult for me personally, I can only imagine the pain she has had to endure. I also want to apologize to her parents and family members, and to my family and friends and supporters, and to the citizens of Eagle, Colorado.

I also want to make it clear that I do not question the motives of this young woman. No money has been paid to this woman. She has agreed that this statement will not be used against me in the civil case. Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.

I issue this statement today fully aware that while one part of this case ends today, another remains. I understand that the civil case against me will go forward. That part of this case will be decided by and between the parties directly involved in the incident and will no longer be a financial or emotional drain on the citizens of the state of Colorado.[21]

[SupaDave]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that while there might be some dispute about the consentuality of what happened, there is no dispute about the fact that he had sex with this young woman. While affairs seem to have been largely normalized these days and many would say that they are largely an issue between the husband and wife, for a sizable portion of the population, the term "family man" is incongruous with someone who had an affair. I do not follow Kobe that closely but from a distance, it seems that he has admirably atoned for this and moved on to lead a life that all would agree meets the definition of "family man," while also contributing to society in many other great ways. No one is perfect (he who has not sinned may cast the first stone) and different people are entitled to different values on this issue, but it occurred so descriptive language should be modified accordingly.

Imagine if we wanted to talk about his Oscar, or his Emmy, or his Academy Award this much.

[scottdude8]

I think we need to all hit pause for a quick sec here. Let's remember that this is a complicated and charged issue, and equally well-meaning, well-informed, thoughtful, and kind people can very reasonably have differing thoughts on opinions on this in a variety of ways. Part of the challenge to talking about this is the complexity, which we all need to acknowledge (which is why I loved uh_no's post). Nothing about this is binary.

[elvis14]

I'm probably going to be the most open that I've ever been on this board, and perhaps the most open I ever will be. Perhaps Ironically also most floating the line of the board decorum which I generally ardently defend.
<snipped for brevity>

K, that's just a great post. Appreciate you taking the time and being so open (that's tough on the internet sometimes because of all the keyboard tough guys).

D


You must spread some Comments around before commenting on uh_no again.

[Stray Gator]

I am encouraged by a restoration of what I regard as a proper perspective in some of the recent posts in this thread. While I'm not an NBA fan and did not pay much attention to the career of Kobe Bryant, I was aware of the most highly publicized peaks and valleys of his story. His was a life that, as I understood it, had as its central feature a story of redemption -- of a man who acknowledged and accepted responsibility for his missteps, then endeavored to apply the lessons learned from his errors by conducting himself in a manner that would be worthy of emulation. By all accounts, Kobe Bryant succeeded brilliantly in that endeavor, working tirelessly to make himself and the world around him better; and for that reason alone, I believe his tragic, untimely death merits pausing for a reasonable period of respectful mourning.

Manifestly, every story of redemption must originate with some wrongdoing. I was deeply disappointed, however, to find that a majority of the messages posted here over the past few days -- at least until this morning -- focused more on his past missteps than on the positive changes and achievements and acts of generosity that made his life such an extraordinary story of redemption. In the immediate aftermath of the news, when fans were still trying to deal with the shock of the tragic accident by expressing their sadness and sense of loss, one poster insisted on repeatedly reminding everyone of the stain of those past rape allegations, having determined that it was urgently necessary to repudiate another poster's statement that Bryant "was a truly nice guy."

Well, guess what? The fact that Bryant was accused more than a decade ago of a sexual assault -- an act that he initially said he thought was consensual, but for which he subsequently apologized and acknowledged was not regarded as consensual by the victim -- does not negate the possibility that he "was a truly nice guy." In fact, the evidence overwhelmingly supports the conclusion that, in the years after the incident and at the time of his death, Bryant was genuinely more than just "a truly nice guy"; he was an admirable father, a supportive friend, and a generous contributor of his time and money to worthy causes -- in effect, a person who had earned redemption for his past wrongdoing. I don't know what more he could have done to atone for his misdeed, short of pleading guilty and going to jail -- which of course would almost certainly have rendered him incapable of doing the all the subsequent good for which he is now celebrated and appreciated by so many.

Most importantly to me, though, even assuming he was guilty of bad acts in his life, he deserved in death a sufficient measure of common decency and courtesy that his fans be allowed a reasonable period of peace in which to pay their respects for the good things that he meant to them.

I suppose that those who felt compelled to avenge his victim by disparaging others' memories of the man even before the wreckage could be cleared can dismiss my complaint as the product of outdated values, or insensitivity to the suffering of sexual assault victims, or both. So be it. And color me the fool for clinging to the idealistic notion that those values were still prevalent among members of the DBR community.

[golfinesquire]

My side is one of positive energy after a man's death. Not sure which one you are on.

Accuracy, which also includes appropriate balance.

[SupaDave]

Accuracy, which also includes appropriate balance.

So how does one accurately mourn by focusing on one night of a person's life?

[DarkstarWahoo]

So how does one accurately mourn?

Someone should start a eulogy fact-checking business.

[Steven43]

That's very fair, SupaDave. As the poster who used "dark side", which, in retrospect, seems like a very poor choice, I think you bring up some extremely valid points. I was trying to defend Kobe, but you correctly pointed out some key aspects of the entire picture that I was not recognizing.

Why does your use of the term “dark side” seem to you to be a very poor choice? “Dark side” is a common term that has been used in everyday conversation for as long as I can remember and is considered to be race neutral. Is there something I’m missing?

[SupaDave]

Why does your use of the term “dark side” seem to you to be a very poor choice? “Dark side” is a common term that has been used in everyday conversation for as long as I can remember and is considered to be race neutral. Is there something I’m missing?

A better question would be what evidence do you have of a dark side? A dark side would imply that not only did he continuously participate in a certain behavior but was known for it. The man had one criminal charge in his life. It has absolutely nothing to do with his race.

[Steven43]

A better question would be what evidence do you have of a dark side? A dark side would imply that not only did he continuously participate in a certain behavior but was known for it. The man had one criminal charge in his life. It has absolutely nothing to do with his race.

Fair point, and I agree with what you’re saying now that it has been clarified.

[jv001]

I think this thread would have been closed a few days ago if the thread wasn't about a well known sports figure who died a tragic death. I think we should all read StrayGators post and ask our selves, what if the person that passed away was our father, mother, brother, sister or best friend. What kind of post would you want to see here on DBR? I think I'm through with this thread and will move on to Duke basketball and Duke football. Y'all have a nice day now.

GoDuke!

[WakeDevil]

They remembered him at the Grammys. Are any of his songs online?

[DarkstarWahoo]

They remembered him at the Grammys. Are any of his songs online?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl_WkTiH6-Q

Featuring Tyra Banks!

[MCFinARL]

A lot of assumption in this and seemingly a push for the advocation of rape victims. That's cool and understandable but quite frankly some of you are using his "dark side" to forget all that he did for other people and as a man.

And quite frankly, many in the basketball world - ESPECIALLY black males - don't believe he did it. So there's that part. I could go on a tirade about all of the black males who have been falsely accused of rape. Just another side for you to think about while you all seemingly focus on his "guilt."

Never forget that while you smear the man just hours after his death that his accuser had her own flaws (and motives).

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/defense-someone-elses-semen/

Obviously, your point about false accusations is well taken. But this isn't necessarily a binary situation--he was guilty or she was lying. Over the past 25 years or so, our culture has been undergoing a (long overdue) paradigm shift in how we think about sexual relationships and consent. As a star professional athlete, Kobe traveled in a world where there was no shortage of willing partners, which may have led him to make assumptions about a young woman who came to his room, and as a man, he may well have subconsciously internalized the idea that "no" doesn't always really mean "no"--which was a pretty common view under the old paradigm. I think his statement at the time may well be 100% true--he genuinely believed the sex was consensual and she did not.

Given his apparently exemplary behavior toward women since, he learned from this experience, much to his credit. I think it may be worth talking about that, not to sully his reputation in death but to acknowledge that as a society we are still figuring all these issues out and have a way to go.

[Steven43]

I think this thread would have been closed a few days ago if the thread wasn't about a well known sports figure who died a tragic death.

Hmm 🤔, it is unclear to me as to what exactly you are seemingly objecting. And why do you feel the thread should have been closed a few days ago? The thread was only begun just a few days ago. Should it have never existed? I’m confused.

[Edouble]

I think this thread would have been closed a few days ago if the thread wasn't about a well known sports figure who died a tragic death. I think we should all read StrayGators post and ask our selves, what if the person that passed away was our father, mother, brother, sister or best friend. What kind of post would you want to see here on DBR? I think I'm through with this thread and will move on to Duke basketball and Duke football. Y'all have a nice day now.

GoDuke!

You assume too much.

If it was my father, I'd want the kid gloves off.

[proelitedota]

Still in denial. :(

And now my youtube homepage is all Kobe stuff.

Thanks algorithm gods!

[dukebluesincebirth]

Still in denial. :(

And now my youtube homepage is all Kobe stuff.

Thanks algorithm gods!

Same here, bud... this one hit me extra hard and seems it’s going to stick around for awhile. Maybe because I’m 40 and have 2 daughters (my only 2 children) who I watch basketball games with. The 2 year old already screams GOOOOO DUKE when it comes on. I don’t really know why, but the feeling of sadness has not faded much yet.

[rsvman]

Same here, bud... this one hit me extra hard and seems it’s going to stick around for awhile. Maybe because I’m 40 and have 2 daughters (my only 2 children) who I watch basketball games with. The 2 year old already screams GOOOOO DUKE when it comes on. I don’t really know why, but the feeling of sadness has not faded much yet.

Sorry to hear this. Grieving is unpredictable and difficult.

I have had a rough go over the past year and a half, losing a lot of acquaintances and relatives of very close friends, etc. I have cried thousands of tears. But for some reason, this story, although it shocked me, didn't hit me with the sadness. I'm very sorry for the loss of life and I realize it was truly a tragic event, but it didn't get into my heart and affect me personally. My youngest son called me up and he was obviously grieving. I can't explain why. Maybe after going through losses much closer to home I don't have enough left in the tank to grieve for people I never even knew. And I guess I never really get the feeling that I know people I only see on tv. I suspect that a lot of people really did feel like he was their friend, though.

Hang in there. Get plenty of rest; sleep deprivation just makes grief worse.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

My overwhelming connection to Kobe has always been that we are/were the same age. Being my age, Kobe wasn't my idol; that was Michael Jordan. Kobe was (haha) my peer. When I was in my senior year of college, he was drafted (briefly) by my hometown Hornets. His foibles were my opportunity to feel superior- for a brief moment. When he won trophies and MVPs while I was working at a coffeeshop, it was striking to me.
His death brings a strange closure to the parallels, or lack thereof.
For folks 15 years younger than I, I assume he is their MJ. Had Jordan died suddenly in a violent way just after retirement, I probably would have had a much more visceral reaction. Instead, I'm on the sidelines, a bit befuddled by all the attention paid to the death of an athlete.

We all bring different baggage to the table.

[chrishoke]

The Kobe Memorial today was amazing. I highly recommend catching the highlights.