The Phracas at the Phog

[Tripping William]

Malice in the Palace level fight broke out at the end of KU/K St. in Lawrence tonight. Yikes!

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Ugly situation at the end of the Kansas-Kansas St game. Low class move by the Kansas player who started it.

[devildeac]

Ugly situation at the end of the Kansas-Kansas St game. Low class move by the Kansas player who started it.

De Sousa?

[fuse]

Will Kansas or Kansas State even be able to dress 5 players for their next game?

Just....wow.

[Eternal Outlaw]

Luckily the stool was snatched from him but the player who tried to use a stool as a weapon should be done for the year.

[rsvman]

Ugly situation at the end of the Kansas-Kansas St game. Low class move by the Kansas player who started it.

It's not clear to me who actually started it. The Kansas State player stole the ball for no reason and went down to score. Low class. Let the guy dribble out the last few seconds of a game in which you are down by more than twenty points.

The Kansas player then decides to block the shot. Unnecessary, but I have no problem with the "not in my house" idea. I don't think blocking the shot was low class.

But then he stands over the guy. Low class, to be sure, but not egregious, in my opinion.

What happened next I don't really know. So I honestly can't tell who started it.

[dukelifer]

Luckily the stool was snatched from him but the player who tried to use a stool as a weapon should be done for the year.

The NCAA needs to suspend the guy with the stool for the year.

[duke4ever19]

Luckily the stool was snatched from him but the player who tried to use a stool as a weapon should be done for the year.

I saw that! I showed it to my wife and she said, "Someone in a suit just saved that kid's season." I think it was DeSousa, though, and his intent clearly was to bash someone over the head, Myles Garret style.

Dickie V just said, "I'll be shocked if DeSousa ever puts on a Kansas jersey again." Bill Self is out of there anyway. He's gonna bolt before the fallout of his own mess.

[CameronBlue]

Luckily the stool was snatched from him but the player who tried to use a stool as a weapon should be done for the year.

That kid has a future in the WWE.

[ChillinDuke]

De Sousa is almost certainly done for the year. Ironic, given he won an appeal to play this year after being implicated in the Adidas scandal.

David McCormack also looks like he's in for an early off-season. Or at least a very long layoff. Sad because I believe he was a target of ours, so you'd like to think he's a good kid. Certainly not a good look for him.

Also whoever the kid was dressed in black that came off the bench that didn't even dress for the game, he prolly won't dress for quite some time.

Bad look, all around. Will be a major fallout and may cripple Kansas for remainder of season.

- Chillin

[Acymetric]

It's not clear to me who actually started it. The Kansas State player stole the ball for no reason and went down to score. Low class. Let the guy dribble out the last few seconds of a game in which you are down by more than twenty points.

The Kansas player then decides to block the shot. Unnecessary, but I have no problem with the "not in my house" idea. I don't think blocking the shot was low class.

But then he stands over the guy. Low class, to be sure, but not egregious, in my opinion.

What happened next I don't really know. So I honestly can't tell who started it.

I don't really agree...either the steal and block are both cool or both were low class. (I think both were ultimately fine in context).

[OldPhiKap]

I don't really agree...either the steal and block are both cool or both were low class. (I think both were ultimately fine in context).

Yup, agree both are about equal. Although I think they were both punk moves. But it is a rivalry game, that happens.

Not to go all black and white, but:


https://youtu.be/I0RroAH4vwU

And . . . IIRC this immediately followed the freshman game where UNC did not have five eligible players by the end due to fouls and/or fighting ejections. And, during this brawl, Art Heyman supposedly was flat on the floor and Coach Frank McGuire was standing over him — so Art punched him square in the jimmies.

[ChillinDuke]

The steal and the block were both stupid. But being stupid isn't a particularly punishable offense. Especially these days. IMO.

That said, standing over the guy was what crossed the line. That was unnecessary, arrogant, and poor sportsmanship, in a home blowout no less.

I can totally see how that would set someone off.

- Chillin

[flyingdutchdevil]

The steal and the block were both stupid. But being stupid isn't a particularly punishable offense. Especially these days. IMO.

That said, standing over the guy was what crossed the line. That was unnecessary, arrogant, and poor sportsmanship, in a home blowout no less.

I can totally see how that would set someone off.

- Chillin

The steal and block were legal, legitimate basketball plays. The worst that will happen is a stern talking to by the coaching staff a temporary reputation for being petty.

What happened afterwards is unforgivable and inexcusable.

[sagegrouse]

The steal and block were legal, legitimate basketball plays. The worst that will happen is a stern talking to by the coaching staff a temporary reputation for being petty.

What happened afterwards is unforgivable and inexcusable.

Let me vehemently disagree. This is a matter for the league, not the coaches. Self needs to stay out of the way. De Sousa committed a crime -- and he's "three strikes and you're out" and will never play college hoops again. Multi-game suspensions for a number of players.

A disgrace to the game

[flyingdutchdevil]

Let me vehemently disagree. This is a matter for the league, not the coaches. Self needs to stay out of the way. De Sousa committed a crime -- and he's "three strikes and you're out" and will never play college hoops again. Multi-game suspensions for a number of players.

A disgrace to the game

I don’t think you read my post correctly. Please reread

[Bluedog]

Let me vehemently disagree. This is a matter for the league, not the coaches. Self needs to stay out of the way. De Sousa committed a crime -- and he's "three strikes and you're out" and will never play college hoops again. Multi-game suspensions for a number of players.

A disgrace to the game

Fdd was saying the steal and block would be things dealt with by the coaches if it had ended there. Not the fight. I agree that it was the standing over and barking that finally crossed the line.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Fdd was saying the steak and block would be things dealt with by the coachesmif it had ended there. Not the fight. I agree that it was the standing over and barking that finally crossed the line.

Bingo

[miramar]

Did anyone notice the policeman basically standing there?

On the other hand, it was good to see some of the coaches flying into the scrum trying to break things up.

[Native]

This needs a Malice-in-the-Palace-esque name.

I’m thinking “The Flog in the Phog.”

[CoachJ10]

A lot of takes on the KU brawl. One element that stood out to me...(and i know thinks happened quickly)...but where were the KU teammates to deescalate the initial situation? No one did anything to reign De Souza in. That is disappointing to say the least.

And McCormack’s actions were just as violent and punishable as De Souza’s.

[rsvman]

After watching it a couple more times, there is no longer any doubt in my mind about who started the actual FIGHT. It was number 11 of Kansas State, who wasn't even in the game.

As DeSousa was taunting Gordon, number 11 came flying off the bench and went in swinging. From there all heck broke loose. Interesting how nobody mentioned that guy at all.

Granted that DeSousa's taunting was way over the line, there was no physical altercation until the Kansas State player wearing number 11 jumped up off the bench, ran straight over there and started throwing punches.


I agree with stiff penalties for the Kansas guys, but whoever wears number 11 for Kansas State also needs to be hit with a stiff suspension.

[Bluedog]

After watching it a couple more times, there is no longer any doubt in my mind about who started the actual FIGHT. It was number 11 of Kansas State, who wasn't even in the game.

As DeSousa was taunting Gordon, number 11 came flying off the bench and went in swinging. From there all heck broke loose. Interesting how nobody mentioned that guy at all.

Granted that DeSousa's taunting was way over the line, there was no physical altercation until the Kansas State player wearing number 11 jumped up off the bench, ran straight over there and started throwing punches.


I agree with stiff penalties for the Kansas guys, but whoever wears number 11 for Kansas State also needs to be hit with a stiff suspension.
There was mention of the KSt guy on Sports center after our game. Uncle Fester said he too should be suspended for rest of season. But I agree that it seems like most of the focus has been on DeSousa.

The other thing not being talked about is how Bruce Pearl's comments after the game are mostly dismissive and not giving any culpability to his guys, saying he hopes nothing comes of it. At least Self called it an embarrassment.

[rsvman]

There was mention of the KSt guy on Sports center after our game. Uncle Fester said he too should be suspended for rest of season. But I agree that it seems like most of the focus has been on DeSousa.

Oh, good. I have to admit I could only take so much of listening to them jabber. I'm glad somebody paid attention.

[brevity]

This needs a Malice-in-the-Palace-esque name.

I’m thinking “The Slog in the Phog.”

We discussed this in chat. We seemed to unite under "Sunflower Throwdown" (suggested by toughbuff1). Here were other suggestions:

Phogfight
The Scare in the Middle of Nowhere
The Duel with the Stool
Grayson Allen Field House
Rumble in the Tumbleweeds
Row in the Third Row
Bloody Kansas
Harm on the Farm
Red Pandemonium
Roughhouse in the Field House
Jock-Knock-Jayhawk
Rockem Sockem Jayhawk

Might be worth its own thread and poll.

[Saratoga2]

Fdd was saying the steal and block would be things dealt with by the coaches if it had ended there. Not the fight. I agree that it was the standing over and barking that finally crossed the line.

Once the fight was going it was hard to follow real time. This if for conference officials and the NCAA to sort out and certainly at least a couple will get suspensions. At least one shoould be ot for the year or permanently from college ball. Bad night for college ball in general and juswt fortunate there were no major injuries. The fight occured in the handicapped fan section according to an announcer.

[sagegrouse]

I don’t think you read my post correctly. Please reread


Fdd was saying the steal and block would be things dealt with by the coaches if it had ended there. Not the fight. I agree that it was the standing over and barking that finally crossed the line.

Got you. We're in violent agreement.

[UrinalCake]

Why on earth did the refs bring the players back onto the court to shoot the technicals and inbounds the ball? There was one second left! Had they legitimately lost their minds?

I was really intrigued watching the fans around all of the action. One dad with two young kids who made no effort to pull them away. An older gentleman who tried to grab the chair away from DeSousa. Cheerleaders right in the middle of it just standing and watching, and a female trainer yelling at KSU players to get back. Just fascinating.

[Native]

We discussed this in chat. We seemed to unite under "Sunflower Throwdown" (suggested by toughbuff1). Here were other suggestions:

Phogfight
The Scare in the Middle of Nowhere
The Duel with the Stool
Grayson Allen Field House
Rumble in the Tumbleweeds
Row in the Third Row
Bloody Kansas
Harm on the Farm
Red Pandemonium
Roughhouse in the Field House
Jock-Knock-Jayhawk
Rockem Sockem Jayhawk

Might be worth its own thread and poll.

For the record: “The Duel With the Stool” speaks to me on a spiritual level.

[duke4ever19]

Okay, I went over to a Kansas fan forum to get a feel for how they think this will play out . . .

Yikes. I'm genuinely shocked how classless those people are. They are too busy retweeting laugh emojis from former KU players, to really grasp how serious that incident tonight was for their team, their season, their program etc. They think McCormick might get 'two games suspension' even though he is clearly seen stomping on whoever he sees on the floor. He does it several times. DeSousa is done, but they think an apology might be all that is needed since 'he didn't actually hit anyone with the stool.'

That's what is great about this place and the Duke fans and alumni I know personally. I know the people here would not be supporting such behavior.

[AZLA]

Why on earth did the refs bring the players back onto the court to shoot the technicals and inbounds the ball? There was one second left! Had they legitimately lost their minds?

I was really intrigued watching the fans around all of the action. One dad with two young kids who made no effort to pull them away. An older gentleman who tried to grab the chair away from DeSousa. Cheerleaders right in the middle of it just standing and watching, and a female trainer yelling at KSU players to get back. Just fascinating.

All good points. But to your point — the refs lost their ever lovin’ minds not sending both teams out off the floor and calling it a night. Some of the dumbest decision making ever.

[uh_no]

Haven't seen anything on it, but Kansas and KSU got into a bit of a tizzie at the end of the game

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=28534122

I think a couple things

1) de sousa is done for the year. you don't get to jack punches and go into a fight with a chair. in the crowd. ahhhh see-ya
2) I don't care that it was a steal as time was running out. One of those things is mildly unsportsmanlike. One is criminal.
3) McCormick should get some time off for the stomping
4) The benches being ejected is a bit of a strange call, as the clock read 0.0 at the time. Now, those involved with the fracas, sure, but simply leaving the bench during play seems like a cop out call. At that point, you just declare the game over for safety reasons.
5) the article claims that this meant the 5 people who were in the game each had to come out for the technical free throws. That seems impossible given that de-sousa undoubtedly gets an automatic exit for the punches...and I can't imagine they allowed him back on the court. did anyone see the ending?
6) Maybe people can finally get some perspective about Grayson Allen.


Either way, embarrassing. If it were me, Mccormick and de sousa would be done for the year and both teams would be post-season ineligible. But I also have zero tolerance for that kind of horse manure in sports.

[duke2x]

KSU will play in the same tournament as UNC. KU should have some multi-game suspensions, but I will be surprised if anyone is done for the year from a title contender. I'm not justifying the horrendous conduct, but I am also a realist.

It would be fun to see those suspensions partially administered for the return game @KSU. Managers v. managers on ESPN.

[BD80]

Ugly situation at the end of the Kansas-Kansas St game. Low class move by the Kansas player who started it.

You mean the ex-Kansas player ...


…

David McCormack also looks like he's in for an early off-season. Or at least a very long layoff. Sad because I believe he was a target of ours, so you'd like to think he's a good kid. Certainly not a good look for him. …

- Chillin


Is McCormack the one who looked like Godzilla stomping through Tokyo?

[gep]

All good points. But to your point — the refs lost their ever lovin’ minds not sending both teams out off the floor and calling it a night. Some of the dumbest decision making ever.

If I heard correctly, the announcers kept repeating that the new NCAA rules *REQUIRE* the game to be played until the clock reaches 0:00. Makes no sense to me...

[uh_no]

https://streamable.com/u9tph

Here's another angle. who is the guy in the suit coming in for a flying body slam? Missed that on the ESPN shot.

[gep]

The steal and block were legal, legitimate basketball plays. The worst that will happen is a stern talking to by the coaching staff a temporary reputation for being petty.

What happened afterwards is unforgivable and inexcusable.

I recall Kyle Singler "poking" the ball out of the opponent's dribble after the game was "over"... a few seconds left. I looked for it, but couldn't find it.

But if I recall correctly, Singler just poked at the ball, but didn't try to score... frustration, I thought...

[BLPOG]

https://streamable.com/u9tph

Here's another angle. who is the guy in the suit coming in for a flying body slam? Missed that on the ESPN shot.

I've had trouble identifying everyone in the clips so far, but also though that was notable. There's another non-player right by him who seems very much involved. I'm sort of waiting for some random guy's Youtube clip tomorrow with telestration and captioning.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I've had trouble identifying everyone in the clips so far, but also though that was notable. There's another non-player right by him who seems very much involved. I'm sort of waiting for some random guy's Youtube clip tomorrow with telestration and captioning.
Wondering if they were team managers or something. But the flying tackle is nuts. Lot going on there. KU male cheerleaders doing their best to hold guys back.

Not to make light of it at all but it reminds me of the 1961 Heyman-Brown bout-turned-brawl.

[Saratoga2]

https://streamable.com/u9tph

Here's another angle. who is the guy in the suit coming in for a flying body slam? Missed that on the ESPN shot.

I assumed the guy in the white pants and black shirt throwing punches is an innjured player coming off the KSU bench and the guy in the suit is an assistant coach trying to get him out of the fracas.

[JasonEvans]

I am sure folks noted that ESPN was all over this story during the halftime of Duke clobbering Miami. Phonso Ellis and Seth Greenberg both opined that De Sousa should be done for the year and they seemed to think McCormick should as well. Dick Vitale said De Sousa should never put on a college uniform again for any team.

I'm not sure I am ready to go quite that far. De Sousa picking up the chair was really bad so I guess I could go season-long suspension for him but I think McCormick should be able to come back in 10 games or so. This was a bad fight but it was a heat of the moment thing. I'm not saying it should be forgiven, but I think we can be a bit more lenient in our punishment here versus someone who commits a premeditated criminal act.

I would also suspend the KSt player who stole the ball for 8 games as punishment for not understanding the rules of the sport. Guys who play hard to the whistle in the final seconds of a game that is a blowout are asking for trouble.


I assumed the guy in the white pants and black shirt throwing punches is an innjured player coming off the KSU bench and the guy in the suit is an assistant coach trying to get him out of the fracas.

Yeah, that was an injured KSt player and I am guessing he is is gonna get a significant suspension too, maybe 3 games. That assistant coach deserves a medal. That was like throwing yourself on a hand grenade.

-Jason "because it was a blow out, most of the starters for both team were on the benches... which means we could see multiple starters suspended for leaving the bench and miss this weekend's games" Evans

[CDu]

https://streamable.com/u9tph

Here's another angle. who is the guy in the suit coming in for a flying body slam? Missed that on the ESPN shot.


I assumed the guy in the white pants and black shirt throwing punches is an innjured player coming off the KSU bench and the guy in the suit is an assistant coach trying to get him out of the fracas.

Yeah the guy in a suit appears to be falling after walking over a chair rather than trying to make a flying body slam.

The guy in the black shirt and whitish pants is almost certainly a not-currently-active KSU player.

[BigDuke6]

I am sure folks noted that ESPN was all over this story during the halftime of Duke clobbering Miami. Phonso Ellis and Seth Greenberg both opined that De Sousa should be done for the year and they seemed to think McCormick should as well. Dick Vitale said De Sousa should never put on a college uniform again for any team.

I'm not sure I am ready to go quite that far. De Sousa picking up the chair was really bad so I guess I could go season-long suspension for him but I think McCormick should be able to come back in 10 games or so. This was a bad fight but it was a heat of the moment thing. I'm not saying it should be forgiven, but I think we can be a bit more lenient in our punishment here versus someone who commits a premeditated criminal act.

I would also suspend the KSt player who stole the ball for 8 games as punishment for not understanding the rules of the sport. Guys who play hard to the whistle in the final seconds of a game that is a blowout are asking for trouble.



Yeah, that was an injured KSt player and I am guessing he is is gonna get a significant suspension too, maybe 3 games. That assistant coach deserves a medal. That was like throwing yourself on a hand grenade.

-Jason "because it was a blow out, most of the starters for both team were on the benches... which means we could see multiple starters suspended for leaving the bench and miss this weekend's games" Evans

Suspend a kid 8 games for making a basketball play in a basketball game? I don’t know what he did after the fight started but an 8 game suspension for a kid that steals the ball during play doesn’t sound right.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I am sure folks noted that ESPN was all over this story during the halftime of Duke clobbering Miami. Phonso Ellis and Seth Greenberg both opined that De Sousa should be done for the year and they seemed to think McCormick should as well. Dick Vitale said De Sousa should never put on a college uniform again for any team.

I'm not sure I am ready to go quite that far. De Sousa picking up the chair was really bad so I guess I could go season-long suspension for him but I think McCormick should be able to come back in 10 games or so. This was a bad fight but it was a heat of the moment thing. I'm not saying it should be forgiven, but I think we can be a bit more lenient in our punishment here versus someone who commits a premeditated criminal act.

I would also suspend the KSt player who stole the ball for 8 games as punishment for not understanding the rules of the sport. Guys who play hard to the whistle in the final seconds of a game that is a blowout are asking for trouble.



some quick points vis a vis the comments in bold
A: yes, that was almost the entire halftime conversation.
B: I don't know where I come down on appropriate length of punishment, but I don't see any analogy or relevance to premeditated events....which don't happen in a game. Everything is heat of the moment. That's a given, and therefore not much of a mitigating factor IMO.
C: Sorry Jason, total disagreement here, on the punishment aspect. It was not wise for the K State player to steal that ball. That is not a "rule" of the sport, but an unwritten rule. And yes, it was foolish...but not punishment worthy. What was totally uncalled for was a team winning by 30 being in a testy mood.

[JasonEvans]

C: Sorry Jason, total disagreement here, on the punishment aspect. It was not wise for the K State player to steal that ball. That is not a "rule" of the sport, but an unwritten rule. And yes, it was foolish...but not punishment worthy. What was totally uncalled for was a team winning by 30 being in a testy mood.

Sorry, I was kinda kidding about suspending the player who stole the ball. I know he technically did nothing wrong, but I really hate it when guys stat pad like that at the end of the game. Down 20+ with five seconds left, you are just stat padding for yourself. If I was his coach I would have really got on him. And let's be clear, none of this happens if he did not start it. I am not saying what happened was his fault or that his actions justified the responses, but if he does what 99% of the rest of the sport does and let Kansas dribble out the clock, then none of this happens.


B: I don't know where I come down on appropriate length of punishment, but I don't see any analogy or relevance to premeditated events...which don't happen in a game. Everything is heat of the moment. That's a given, and therefore not much of a mitigating factor IMO.

Yup, I was just saying that I think there can be more lenience in heat of the moment punishment than something a bit more planned and thought out. I guess I am making a case to not kick McCormick and De Sousa out of the sport.

-Jason "Kansas is going to need walk-ons to suit up a team this weekend, I suspect" Evans

[lotusland]

A lot of flailing about but I don’t see evidence that any significant punches or stomps actually landed or did any harm. The steal was a punk move and the taunt was a minor unsportsmanlike technical foul. It’s kinda hard to pin down fault for the mob reaction that broke out spontaneously. I know DeSousa is going to be the scapegoat but I think even his reaction has been exaggerated. From his point of view it appears that he looked up and saw a wave of people instantly coming at him. I think he thought better and dropped the stool as much as it was stripped away. You’d like everyone to immediately de-escalate the situation and walk away but putting myself in the players position, I see a lot of restraint. So I guess the NCAA or conference needs to send a message but I wouldn’t suspend anyone for the year.

[PackMan97]

The KST player DID NOTHING WRONG HERE. NOTHING!

My guess is there is a lot of bad blood in this rivalry. None of this happens if Kansas just laughs at that dork and walks off the court. It's also an unwritten rule that at the end of the game, let the guy go don't give him a hard foul "protecting your house". It's a much better insult to not even care the kid stole the ball.

If it were up to me, I would disband the Kansas basketball program and then for good measure suspend a few Carolina players for a dozen games just because I hate them.

[Billy Dat]

The guy in the black shirt and whitish pants is almost certainly a not-currently-active KSU player.

Before I had seen the fight, my sons (younger teens) were telling me, "K State has some TOUGH managers!!!" When I saw the video, I went in with that mindset and then I realized they were non-active players. A bit of levity.

[kshepinthehouse]

Suspend a kid 8 games for making a basketball play in a basketball game? I don’t know what he did after the fight started but an 8 game suspension for a kid that steals the ball during play doesn’t sound right.

Agreed. That’s nuts. He stole the ball. Should he have done it? Probably not. Is it worth fighting over? Absolutely not.

[bundabergdevil]

The KST player DID NOTHING WRONG HERE. NOTHING!

My guess is there is a lot of bad blood in this rivalry. None of this happens if Kansas just laughs at that dork and walks off the court. It's also an unwritten rule that at the end of the game, let the guy go don't give him a hard foul "protecting your house". It's a much better insult to not even care the kid stole the ball.

If it were up to me, I would disband the Kansas basketball program and then for good measure suspend a few Carolina players for a dozen games just because I hate them.


Your ideas are intriguing to me and I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter!

[kshepinthehouse]

A lot of flailing about but I don’t see evidence that any significant punches or stomps actually landed or did any harm. The steal was a punk move and the taunt was a minor unsportsmanlike technical foul. It’s kinda hard to pin down fault for the mob reaction that broke out spontaneously. I know DeSousa is going to be the scapegoat but I think even his reaction has been exaggerated. From his point of view it appears that he looked up and saw a wave of people instantly coming at him. I think he thought better and dropped the stool as much as it was stripped away. You’d like everyone to immediately de-escalate the situation and walk away but putting myself in the players position, I see a lot of restraint. So I guess the NCAA or conference needs to send a message but I wouldn’t suspend anyone for the year.

De Sousa minor technical foul? Sorry, he’s standing over someone he just blocked at the buzzer while winning by 20+. It’s so beyond disrespectful to stand over someone, that’s just asking for it. That’s the punk move. Should the kid have stolen the ball? No. But who cares, you’re up 20.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Sorry, I was kinda kidding about suspending the player who stole the ball. I know he technically did nothing wrong, but I really hate it when guys stat pad like that at the end of the game. Down 20+ with five seconds left, you are just stat padding for yourself. If I was his coach I would have really got on him. And let's be clear, none of this happens if he did not start it. I am not saying what happened was his fault or that his actions justified the responses, but if he does what 99% of the rest of the sport does and let Kansas dribble out the clock, then none of this happens.


-Jason "Kansas is going to need walk-ons to suit up a team this weekend, I suspect" Evans

I could not disagree more. If I'm a coach, I commend a player for fighting til the buzzer. I don't see it as "stat padding," I see it as "not giving anything away."

We see players do this all the time against Duke. We're fortunate that our team is frequently running out the clock, taking the foot off the gas, holding the ball at the top of the arc, watching the clock dribble down to zeros. If a Clemson player knocked the ball away from an inattentive Jack White (using this example because White is mostly impeccable when it comes to focus) and drove down the court for a dunk, would you suggest that warrants a hard foul from a Duke player, followed by a bench-clearing fracas?

KS's player was completely in his right to take the ball and go to the basket. The Jayhawk that followed after with the block was also certainly within his rights. The melee that ensued was completely nuts and unwarranted.

If Duke was down 12 at UNC with ten seconds to go, and Grayson Allen had made a steal and gone to the rack (not outside the realm of possibility) would you call for an 8 game suspension?

[lotusland]

De Sousa minor technical foul? Sorry, he’s standing over someone he just blocked at the buzzer while winning by 20+. It’s so beyond disrespectful to stand over someone, that’s just asking for it. That’s the punk move. Should the kid have stolen the ball? No. But who cares, you’re up 20.

Sorry I’m unmoved by your argument. A taunt after a punk move doesn’t make my blood boil. Call a technical and move on. You are over reacting imo.

[budwom]

Bill Self will say all the right things, then advocate minimal punishment because that's what he does.
Anything meaningful will have to come from the Big 12...are they willing to let someone besides Kansas win the regular season title? Dubious...

Not sure where the NCAA fits in all this...

Looked to me like the Kansas St. fan got pounded into the boards like a minor league hockey player, wasn't he the focus of attention for awhile by the Jayhawk miscreants?

[kshepinthehouse]

Sorry I’m unmoved by your argument. A taunt after a punk move doesn’t make my blood boil. Call a technical and move on. You are over reacting imo.

Stealing a ball is part of the game. Standing over someone has no place in the game. He was asking for it.

[JasonEvans]

If Duke was down 12 at UNC with ten seconds to go, and Grayson Allen had made a steal and gone to the rack (not outside the realm of possibility) would you call for an 8 game suspension?

Again, I was kidding about the 8 game suspension.

But, in the scenario you lay out I would be upset with Grayson and I would see it as stat padding and poor sportsmanship. The team who is winning by a wide margin in the final seconds does something honorable by no longer trying to score. I think the opponent's response should not be to sneak up and take the ball from an unsuspecting player who is trying to be honorable. The next time Kansas is pounding KSt (which will happen again given the relative state of the programs) they should keep on pressing and leave their starters in extra long.

-Jason "the player who stole the ball was DaJuan Gordon, KSt's 4th leading scorer... Kansas was playing walk ons and scrubs for the final 3 minutes of the game" Evans

[Tooold]

.

The other thing not being talked about is how Bruce Pearl's comments after the game are mostly dismissive and not giving any culpability to his guys, saying he hopes nothing comes of it. At least Self called it an embarrassment.

Pearl’s comments were really hard to process....totally off-the-mark, but maybe he thought (or hoped) his team was blameless and was trying to play nice. But I was also totally unsatisfied with Self’s comments. To say “this was not toughness...it was immaturity...bad look for the game” was a gross understatement. It was a step up from “boys will be boys”. I would rather he had been angry. He should have said it was totally unacceptable, and that he would review film and decide what action to take. That isn’t what I heard. I hope they both have stronger reactions after watching the film.

I also think the refs were totally wrong to bring the players back. Regardless of NCAA rules that the game must play out, this was clearly a situation in which sound judgment should top a stupid rule. (If necessary, they could have gone to the clock and made a judgment call that the clock had expired when KS player went out of bounds). Sheesh.

[Tripping William]

Pearl’s comments were really hard to process...totally off-the-mark, but maybe he thought (or hoped) his team was blameless and was trying to play nice. But I was also totally unsatisfied with Self’s comments. To say “this was not toughness...it was immaturity...bad look for the game” was a gross understatement. It was a step up from “boys will be boys”. I would rather he had been angry. He should have said it was totally unacceptable, and that he would review film and decide what action to take. That isn’t what I heard. I hope they both have stronger reactions after watching the film.

I also think the refs were totally wrong to bring the players back. Regardless of NCAA rules that the game must play out, this was clearly a situation in which sound judgment should top a stupid rule. (If necessary, they could have gone to the clock and made a judgment call that the clock had expired when KS player went out of bounds). Sheesh.

I assume y'all mean Bruce Weber. Because Bruce Pearl coaches Auburn, who plays South Carolina tonight many hundreds of miles from Allen Fieldhouse.

[PensDevil]

Pearl’s comments were really hard to process...

Let's leave the Auburn coach out of this one. Now Bruce Weber's comments on his K State team on the other hand...

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Again, I was kidding about the 8 game suspension.

But, in the scenario you lay out I would be upset with Grayson and I would see it as stat padding and poor sportsmanship. The team who is winning by a wide margin in the final seconds does something honorable by no longer trying to score. I think the opponent's response should not be to sneak up and take the ball from an unsuspecting player who is trying to be honorable. The next time Kansas is pounding KSt (which will happen again given the relative state of the programs) they should keep on pressing and leave their starters in extra long.

-Jason "the player who stole the ball was DaJuan Gordon, KSt's 4th leading scorer... Kansas was playing walk ons and scrubs for the final 3 minutes of the game" Evans

I still disagree. There's no "mercy rule" in basketball. I understand what you are saying about calling off the dogs, but if the other team wants to keep fighting, I have no issue with that whatsoever.

Let's say there were 30 seconds left when KSU steals the ball and runs down the court. Okay, fine, you're still playing basketball. Then, Kansas gets the ball back, they go hard to score more points.

That's all fine. There's time on the clock, you don't get to tell me to stop playing basketball just because you've decided the game is over.

[BD80]

The KSU player who stole the ball and precipitated the end of game festivities, was he a regular or a bench warmer?

In my mind, if I'm a kid who never sees the floor, and I get a chance to get a steal and a bucket in one of the most revered venues in the sport, I'm going to take it!

It would also explain the reactions of the KSU managers, to protect "one of their own."

[chris13]

Why on earth did the refs bring the players back onto the court to shoot the technicals and inbounds the ball? There was one second left! Had they legitimately lost their minds?
.



College ref gonna college ref

[OldPhiKap]

The K-State player that stole the ball was perhaps unsportsmanlike but did nothing prohibited by the rules. Bad form, that's all.

The retaliatory hard foul and hover was a technical foul but you can see how it happens. Hockey has enforcers, basketball sometimes has enforcers.

The K-State players who initially left the bench to run over and get in De Sousa's face should be suspended three games. That started the escalation beyond the refs having things under control.

All players who threw a punch should be suspended six games.

De Sousa picking up a chair plus fighting should be gone for the year.

UNC should go to Hell and get the death penalty.

[Tooold]

I assume y'all mean Bruce Weber. Because Bruce Pearl coaches Auburn, who plays South Carolina tonight many hundreds of miles from Allen Fieldhouse.

Ha ha! Yes...I didn’t think Pearl seemed right, but I thought I must be wrong 😬
Glad someone was paying attention.

[lotusland]

Stealing a ball is part of the game. Standing over someone has no place in the game. He was asking for it.

Correct it’s a technical foul. Happens all the time with no melee. Emotions are also a part of the game. It was a minor technical foul meaning not flagrant or violent. I would argue that on the playground you could expect to be taunted after getting packed on punk move like that. I would probably tell the dude to get that weak sh@! outta here myself. don’t think “standing over” someone is generally considered a crime so let’s not exaggerate it.

[JasonEvans]

The KSU player who stole the ball and precipitated the end of game festivities, was he a regular or a bench warmer?

In my mind, if I'm a kid who never sees the floor, and I get a chance to get a steal and a bucket in one of the most revered venues in the sport, I'm going to take it!

It would also explain the reactions of the KSU managers, to protect "one of their own."

He's a regular, their 4th leading scorer who averages better than 23 minutes per game. He only had 6 points in the game so I guess he really, really wanted 2 more.

-Jason "and, to be clear, I don't have a major problem with anything anyone did until the punches start flying" Evans

[Tooold]

But why, in his presser, does Bruce WEBER say “it was probably my fault”? Really? Is this a version of Roy’s standard comment “I have to coach my team better...they didn’t do what I taught them in practice”....

[SCMatt33]

I think people are way overestimating the penalties here. I agree with the sentiment that everything through the blocked shot is fine. You might consider stealing the ball “cheap” or a “punk” move, and I’d agree. Going back to block that shot is probably petty, but ultimately, there’s nothing more to those than that. If that was it, we’d criticize the guy who stole the ball for it and maybe people would think De Sousa should just “be the bigger man” and not go back to block the shot. If it ends there, there’s no story outside of Kansas and it maybe gets put into some hype videos for the next game.

The first punishable thing is De Sousa standing over the guy. This wasn’t just him landing on top of him and staring him down. He walks three steps after the play to go stand over him. This is a classic class A technical foul for taunting. It’s not more than that, however. If it ends there or if a guy steps in and pulls him off or there’s a shove or two, then you’d have some technical fouls handed out, but there’s no repercussions beyond that game, no matter how disrespectful and classless that move is. You don’t get suspended for taunting.

When the punches start flying is where the real punishments come in. The only modern day comp I can think of for this is the Xavier-Cincinnati brawl in 2011. In that instance, the players who were heavily involved in that fight got 4-6 games and players with minor involvement got 1 game. I’d expect to see similar level of punishments here, with a guy like McCormack at the high end of the range given his actions that appear to stomp on guys who have gone down.

Then there’s the chair. I think De Sousa should be pretty thankful that others grabbed at the chair and he lets it go before he attempts to crack someone’s head open with it. Had he actually attacked someone with it, you enter Marty McSorley territory and maybe someone could even press criminal charges. Since he didn’t, I think a lot of the calls for rest of season or kicking him off the team are a bit extreme, especially for a punishment handed down by the conference or NCAA. If Bill Self wants to go above and beyond and do either of those, that’s commendable, but I can’t see the Big 12 going that far for “fight plus picked up a chair”. That doesn’t mean he shouldn’t get any extra punishment, and I’d hazard a guess that he gets 8-11 games, with that upper end being because the rematch is 11 games from now and I could envision a scenario where they don’t want De Sousa in the building for that.

[rsvman]

I said it earlier in the thread, but I'll repeat it here.

There was no actual physical fighting, no punching, no melee, until the player wearing #11 erupted off the Kansas State bench and started throwing haymakers.

[jv001]

Poor Grayson Allen, he's not even around and get's dragged it to this and gets a technical. Sort of like Daniel Ewing. :cool:
As for the Phracas at the Phog, I think DeSousa and #33 need to go to anger management classes. One guy so angry he picks up a chair and is going to smash someone with it and the other stomping people and it wasn't a Christian Laettner stomp either. It reminds me of the Minnesota vs. Ohio State brawl years ago where 3 players jump on one opposing player. One of the 3 idiots from Minnesota was former Yankee outfielder, Dave Winfield. I hope KSUs #11, KUs #22 and #33 are suspended for the remainder of the season but I don't think it will happen because the powers that be put $$$$$ and sports over everything else. What kind of lesson was taught to young people last night. :mad:

GoDuke!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Poor Grayson Allen, he's not even around and get's dragged it to this and gets a technical. Sort of like Daniel Ewing. :cool:
As for the Phracas at the Phog, I think DeSousa and #33 need to go to anger management classes. One guy so angry he picks up a chair and is going to smash someone with it and the other stomping people and it wasn't a Christian Laettner stomp either. It reminds me of the Minnesota vs. Ohio State brawl years ago where 3 players jump on one opposing player. One of the 3 idiots from Minnesota was former Yankee outfielder, Dave Winfield. I hope KSUs #11, KUs #22 and #33 are suspended for the remainder of the season but I don't think it will happen because the powers that be put $$$$$ and sports over everything else. What kind of lesson was taught to young people last night. :mad:

GoDuke!

I'm the one who brought up Grayson, to have folks reconsider their opinion that trying to steal the ball late is somehow unsportsman-like, hot-headed, or emotional. It's a play that all of us can easily see Allen making, if we're being honest. Lucky for him, he was very rarely in the position of the other team dribbling out the clock.

[jv001]

I'm the one who brought up Grayson, to have folks reconsider their opinion that trying to steal the ball late is somehow unsportsman-like, hot-headed, or emotional. It's a play that all of us can easily see Allen making, if we're being honest. Lucky for him, he was very rarely in the position of the other team dribbling out the clock.

Good point. GoDuke!

[killerleft]

I still disagree. There's no "mercy rule" in basketball. I understand what you are saying about calling off the dogs, but if the other team wants to keep fighting, I have no issue with that whatsoever.

Let's say there were 30 seconds left when KSU steals the ball and runs down the court. Okay, fine, you're still playing basketball. Then, Kansas gets the ball back, they go hard to score more points.

That's all fine. There's time on the clock, you don't get to tell me to stop playing basketball just because you've decided the game is over.

Yep. Time on the clock? Play on, unless both teams stop. In some circumstances, I have felt that it is condescending NOT to play on.

[ChillinDuke]

He's a regular, their 4th leading scorer who averages better than 23 minutes per game. He only had 6 points in the game so I guess he really, really wanted 2 more.

-Jason "and, to be clear, I don't have a major problem with anything anyone did until the punches start flying" Evans

I'm with Mtn on this one. I don't agree with this take at all. He "really, really wanted 2 more" points? I don't think that's the point at all (no pun intended). His team got clobbered by their in-state, blue-blood rival. He wanted to show some pride and play it out and fight til the end. I highly doubt he was "padding his stats". If he threw it off the backboard for a 10th rebound to make it a double-double that's one thing. But this was old fashioned, never-give-up mentality. At least, that's how I saw it.

I don't think that kid was in the wrong at all. I don't even think he should get much of a talking to, had this not turned into a bench clearing brawl.

Neither should De Sousa for the block. You want to play to the end, K State? Fine, let's play to the end!

But De Sousa standing over the guy was waaay over the top. They crushed them. Then he got his block to shut him up. Should have walked away clapping with a wry smile - at most. But standing over a guy on the floor post-block is wrong. Plain and simple. And that is what really caused the whole thing.

- Chillin

[wsb3]

Poor Grayson Allen, he's not even around and get's dragged it to this and gets a technical. Sort of like Daniel Ewing. :cool:
As for the Phracas at the Phog, I think DeSousa and #33 need to go to anger management classes. One guy so angry he picks up a chair and is going to smash someone with it and the other stomping people and it wasn't a Christian Laettner stomp either. It reminds me of the Minnesota vs. Ohio State brawl years ago where 3 players jump on one opposing player. One of the 3 idiots from Minnesota was former Yankee outfielder, Dave Winfield. I hope KSUs #11, KUs #22 and #33 are suspended for the remainder of the season but I don't think it will happen because the powers that be put $$$$$ and sports over everything else. What kind of lesson was taught to young people last night. :mad:

GoDuke!

As a teenager, I remember this brawl. But I didn't remember Winfield being part of it. Pretty good article here.

http://www.startribune.com/hoops-brawl-made-for-one-nasty-night-in-u-s-sports-history/411419775/

[killerleft]

Correct it’s a technical foul. Happens all the time with no melee. Emotions are also a part of the game. It was a minor technical foul meaning not flagrant or violent. I would argue that on the playground you could expect to be taunted after getting packed on punk move like that. I would probably tell the dude to get that weak sh@! outta here myself. don’t think “standing over” someone is generally considered a crime so let’s not exaggerate it.

Taking a step to straddle a player and taunt him? That's unsportsmanlike, and in this instance it was shown why there is no place for it in basketball. I remember leaving the playgrounds when such behavior was exhibited. As seen last night, it only takes one little spark to set off the testosterone.

[lotusland]

I'm the one who brought up Grayson, to have folks reconsider their opinion that trying to steal the ball late is somehow unsportsman-like, hot-headed, or emotional. It's a play that all of us can easily see Allen making, if we're being honest. Lucky for him, he was very rarely in the position of the other team dribbling out the clock.

Well Kyle Singler did slap the ball out of a Clemson players hands who was dribbling out the clock following a humiliating loss at Clemson. I kinda liked it. Definitely a punk move but I thought it sent a message to his teammates that he was pissed about how they played. But if a melee had interrupted people would have called for him to be suspended indefinitely, drawn and quartered.

[kshepinthehouse]

I'm with Mtn on this one. I don't agree with this take at all. He "really, really wanted 2 more" points? I don't think that's the point at all (no pun intended). His team got clobbered by their in-state, blue-blood rival. He wanted to show some pride and play it out and fight til the end. I highly doubt he was "padding his stats". If he threw it off the backboard for a 10th rebound to make it a double-double that's one thing. But this was old fashioned, never-give-up mentality. At least, that's how I saw it.

I don't think that kid was in the wrong at all. I don't even think he should get much of a talking to, had this not turned into a bench clearing brawl.

Neither should De Sousa for the block. You want to play to the end, K State? Fine, let's play to the end!

But De Sousa standing over the guy was way over the top. They crushed them. Then he got his block to shut him up. Should have walked away clapping with a wry smile - at most. But standing over a guy on the floor post-block is wrong. Plain and simple. And that is what really caused the whole thing.

- Chillin

Exactly. Furthermore, De Sousa didn’t land in a position to stand over him. He walked a couple of steps in order to accomplish this goal.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I'm with Mtn on this one. I don't agree with this take at all. He "really, really wanted 2 more" points? I don't think that's the point at all (no pun intended). His team got clobbered by their in-state, blue-blood rival. He wanted to show some pride and play it out and fight til the end. I highly doubt he was "padding his stats". If he threw it off the backboard for a 10th rebound to make it a double-double that's one thing. But this was old fashioned, never-give-up mentality. At least, that's how I saw it.

I don't think that kid was in the wrong at all. I don't even think he should get much of a talking to, had this not turned into a bench clearing brawl.

Neither should De Sousa for the block. You want to play to the end, K State? Fine, let's play to the end!

But De Sousa standing over the guy was waaay over the top. They crushed them. Then he got his block to shut him up. Should have walked away clapping with a wry smile - at most. But standing over a guy on the floor post-block is wrong. Plain and simple. And that is what really caused the whole thing.

- Chillin

Totally in-line with this. Everything until De Sousa's standing over the dude is legitimate basketball. Are the steal and block petty? Sure. But that happens a lot in basketball.

Btw, something that no one likes to bring up in the media is Bill Self's reputation for players who love to fight/out of control. Remember the Morris brothers fighting with the football team? Or Josh Jackson's run in with the law? I get it, these kids rule campus.

Duke has had a few "interesting" apples, but never a reputation for fighting or aggression (and fortunately Grayson's antics reflected Grayson and not Duke). UNC doesn't have this reputation. UK doesn't either. Of the blue bloods, it really does seem to be Kansas.

[CDu]

Haven't seen anything on it, but Kansas and KSU got into a bit of a tizzie at the end of the game

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=28534122

I think a couple things

1) de sousa is done for the year. you don't get to jack punches and go into a fight with a chair. in the crowd. ahhhh see-ya
2) I don't care that it was a steal as time was running out. One of those things is mildly unsportsmanlike. One is criminal.
3) McCormick should get some time off for the stomping
4) The benches being ejected is a bit of a strange call, as the clock read 0.0 at the time. Now, those involved with the fracas, sure, but simply leaving the bench during play seems like a cop out call. At that point, you just declare the game over for safety reasons.
5) the article claims that this meant the 5 people who were in the game each had to come out for the technical free throws. That seems impossible given that de-sousa undoubtedly gets an automatic exit for the punches...and I can't imagine they allowed him back on the court. did anyone see the ending?
6) Maybe people can finally get some perspective about Grayson Allen.


Either way, embarrassing. If it were me, Mccormick and de sousa would be done for the year and both teams would be post-season ineligible. But I also have zero tolerance for that kind of horse manure in sports.

My thoughts:

1) De Sousa is probably getting the lengthiest suspension. He is one of the ones throwing punches, and he's holding the chair. Whether or not his suspension is season-ending, I don't know. But his will bethe longest.
2) To be fair, while I think De Sousa certainly escalated things by taunting, I think it's probably the KSU player in street clothes that shares as much of the blame for the fight. He and De Sousa are the two main guys I see throwing punches. The rest appears to be shoving.
3) I don't think McCormack was actually stomping. It looks like he is climbing through people to get to the KSU player in street clothes that was on the ground. McCormack stands over and rakes at or throws a punch at the KSU guy, but I don't think McCormack stomped on him. But it's hard to see for sure with the video.
4) Yeah, weird decision by the refs.
5) It would be five eligible players. I am guessing that De Sousa was not allowed back on the floor.
6) Apples and oranges.

Other thoughts:
a) kudos to the assistants for getting in there. Those were some big dudes fighting. But maybe don't try to walk on chairs to get there, or you'll fall on your face like that one assistant did :)
b) I was actually surprised how quickly it dissipated given the discussion I'd heard going around. There was lots of shoving and grabbing, but relatively few punches, and by relatively few guys.
c) looks like De Sousa throws the first punch after getting shoved by a KSU player (#11?). Then the KSU guy in street cloths jumps in and throws some punches. But aside from that and a possible punch by McCormack on the street clothes guy, that was about it.
d) If I was doling out punishments, De Sousa would get the worst, then the guy in street clothes (probably have to have his suspension wait to apply until he's eligible), then McCormack. Then whatever is mandated for guys who came off the bench (one game)? Probably 2-3 games for McCormack for punching. Maybe something like 5-6 games for the KSU street-clothes guy. Maybe 10 or so for De Sousa. De Sousa is the hardest one to gauge, because of the chair thing. He didn't actually use it on anyone, so it is a question of how much you want to punish the implication of willingness to use the chair.

A really unfortunate scene. Lots of places where everything could have been avoided. But still, definitely could have been worse, especially given the portrayal of it.

[Acymetric]

I recall Kyle Singler "poking" the ball out of the opponent's dribble after the game was "over"... a few seconds left. I looked for it, but couldn't find it.

But if I recall correctly, Singler just poked at the ball, but didn't try to score... frustration, I thought...


Well Kyle Singler did slap the ball out of a Clemson players hands who was dribbling out the clock following a humiliating loss at Clemson. I kinda liked it. Definitely a punk move but I thought it sent a message to his teammates that he was pissed about how they played. But if a melee had interrupted people would have called for him to be suspended indefinitely, drawn and quartered.

Yeah. I don't really mind guys showing fight until the final whistle. It is not that uncommon for teams to play tight defense in the final seconds even when there is no chance of a comeback. Stealing the ball wasn't great sportsmanship, but it wasn't bad sportsmanship either. It was neutral, with just a slight lean towards "cheap move".


I could not disagree more. If I'm a coach, I commend a player for fighting til the buzzer. I don't see it as "stat padding," I see it as "not giving anything away."

We see players do this all the time against Duke. We're fortunate that our team is frequently running out the clock, taking the foot off the gas, holding the ball at the top of the arc, watching the clock dribble down to zeros. If a Clemson player knocked the ball away from an inattentive Jack White (using this example because White is mostly impeccable when it comes to focus) and drove down the court for a dunk, would you suggest that warrants a hard foul from a Duke player, followed by a bench-clearing fracas?

KS's player was completely in his right to take the ball and go to the basket. The Jayhawk that followed after with the block was also certainly within his rights. The melee that ensued was completely nuts and unwarranted.

If Duke was down 12 at UNC with ten seconds to go, and Grayson Allen had made a steal and gone to the rack (not outside the realm of possibility) would you call for an 8 game suspension?


I still disagree. There's no "mercy rule" in basketball. I understand what you are saying about calling off the dogs, but if the other team wants to keep fighting, I have no issue with that whatsoever.

Let's say there were 30 seconds left when KSU steals the ball and runs down the court. Okay, fine, you're still playing basketball. Then, Kansas gets the ball back, they go hard to score more points.

That's all fine. There's time on the clock, you don't get to tell me to stop playing basketball just because you've decided the game is over.


I'm with Mtn on this one. I don't agree with this take at all. He "really, really wanted 2 more" points? I don't think that's the point at all (no pun intended). His team got clobbered by their in-state, blue-blood rival. He wanted to show some pride and play it out and fight til the end. I highly doubt he was "padding his stats". If he threw it off the backboard for a 10th rebound to make it a double-double that's one thing. But this was old fashioned, never-give-up mentality. At least, that's how I saw it.

I don't think that kid was in the wrong at all. I don't even think he should get much of a talking to, had this not turned into a bench clearing brawl.

Neither should De Sousa for the block. You want to play to the end, K State? Fine, let's play to the end!

But De Sousa standing over the guy was waaay over the top. They crushed them. Then he got his block to shut him up. Should have walked away clapping with a wry smile - at most. But standing over a guy on the floor post-block is wrong. Plain and simple. And that is what really caused the whole thing.

- Chillin

Signal boosting some good takes.

[OldPhiKap]

I'm the one who brought up Grayson, to have folks reconsider their opinion that trying to steal the ball late is somehow unsportsman-like, hot-headed, or emotional. It's a play that all of us can easily see Allen making, if we're being honest. Lucky for him, he was very rarely in the position of the other team dribbling out the clock.

I remember JWill against Maryland, running out the clock and making fake passing motions to taunt the twerps.

I seem to recall Dahntay Jones doing pushups over a guy after dunking on him.

This stuff happens.

Not to rehash Grayson, but with him it seemed to happen an inordinate number of times. Just sayin'

As rsvman noted, there was no physical fighting until a KSU player came off the bench and started swinging. Up until that point it was just basketball.

[sagegrouse]

Well Kyle Singler did slap the ball out of a Clemson players hands who was dribbling out the clock following a humiliating loss at Clemson. I kinda liked it. Definitely a punk move but I thought it sent a message to his teammates that he was pissed about how they played. But if a melee had interrupted people would have called for him to be suspended indefinitely, drawn and quartered.

It's a team discipline matter. Had Coach K called of the dogs? "No fouls! No fouls!"

[UrinalCake]

I vaguely recall this happening to Kansas earlier in the season - they were blowing out some scrub team and in the closing seconds the opposing guard stole the ball and went in for a dunk. It was like he just wanted to get a dunk in Allen Fieldhouse. I wonder if that contributed to the Kansas players not wanting to let it happen again?

[cspan37421]

Who is going to break it to Phil Burgess that Lawrence, KS is the new stool capital of the world?

Sorry Blaine!

[sagegrouse]

I vaguely recall this happening to Kansas earlier in the season - they were blowing out some scrub team and in the closing seconds the opposing guard stole the ball and went in for a dunk. It was like he just wanted to get a dunk in Allen Fieldhouse. I wonder if that contributed to the Kansas players not wanting to let it happen again?

My working hypothesis is that Silvio De Sousa, uhhhh, "easily goes off the rails."

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I remember JWill against Maryland, running out the clock and making fake passing motions to taunt the twerps.

I seem to recall Dahntay Jones doing pushups over a guy after dunking on him.

This stuff happens.

Not to rehash Grayson, but with him it seemed to happen an inordinate number of times. Just sayin'

As rsvman noted, there was no physical fighting until a KSU player came off the bench and started swinging. Up until that point it was just basketball.


I also remember J-Will making some late plays when the game was out of hand against Maryland... Until suddenly it wasn't.

[OldPhiKap]

I also remember J-Will making some late plays when the game was out of hand against Maryland... Until suddenly it wasn't.

Yup. Fight to the last whistle.

[brevity]

I recall Kyle Singler "poking" the ball out of the opponent's dribble after the game was "over"... a few seconds left. I looked for it, but couldn't find it.

But if I recall correctly, Singler just poked at the ball, but didn't try to score... frustration, I thought...


Well Kyle Singler did slap the ball out of a Clemson players hands who was dribbling out the clock following a humiliating loss at Clemson. I kinda liked it. Definitely a punk move but I thought it sent a message to his teammates that he was pissed about how they played. But if a melee had interrupted people would have called for him to be suspended indefinitely, drawn and quartered.

The image quality is not great, but here is the end of that 2009 Duke-Clemson game:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIGAzEZpJeI

Note that Kyle does two things in this video:

1. Starting from the edge of the paint, he walks over to midcourt to knock the ball away, but not toward any Duke player. The ball is headed out of bounds before another Clemson player recovers it.
2. He approaches that second Clemson player with the ball and makes a feint (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/feint) to try to get the Clemson player to flinch.

I recall "I kinda liked it" being the standard DBR response to that play. I disagreed.

[uh_no]

-Jason "and, to be clear, I don't have a major problem with anything anyone did until the punches start flying" Evans

yeah. the best response to a silly move like a guy stealing it as you dribble out the clock is to turn the guy into a stuffed crust pizza..... and then walk away.

[Indoor66]

For the record: “The Duel With the Stool” speaks to me on a spiritual level.

On several levels....

[bundabergdevil]

For the record: “The Duel With the Stool” speaks to me on a spiritual level.

If so, you may find the Ymmmm Spicy Foods thread on off-topic of interest. Similar but different such stool duels are discussed on the regular...

[devildeac]

The KST player DID NOTHING WRONG HERE. NOTHING!

My guess is there is a lot of bad blood in this rivalry. None of this happens if Kansas just laughs at that dork and walks off the court. It's also an unwritten rule that at the end of the game, let the guy go don't give him a hard foul "protecting your house". It's a much better insult to not even care the kid stole the ball.

If it were up to me, I would disband the Kansas basketball program and then for good measure suspend a few Carolina players for a dozen games just because I hate them.

Sadly, you have your priorities reversed. Frankly (or Ernestly), I'm rather disappointed in you.

[PackMan97]

If Duke was down 12 at UNC with ten seconds to go, and Grayson Allen had made a steal and gone to the rack (not outside the realm of possibility) would you call for an 8 game suspension?

In this case Carolina is guilty of poor sportsmanship because we all know they cheated. Cut Allen some slack.

[Indoor66]

Sadly, you have your priorities reversed. Frankly (or Ernestly), I'm rather disappointed in you.

Ahh, the old name game trick. 😂

[elvis14]

It's not clear to me who actually started it. The Kansas State player stole the ball for no reason and went down to score. Low class. Let the guy dribble out the last few seconds of a game in which you are down by more than twenty points.

The Kansas player then decides to block the shot. Unnecessary, but I have no problem with the "not in my house" idea. I don't think blocking the shot was low class.

But then he stands over the guy. Low class, to be sure, but not egregious, in my opinion.

What happened next I don't really know. So I honestly can't tell who started it.

Considering what happened because of this egregious, unsportsmanlike act, I have to say that I disagree with the bolded statement.


De Sousa is almost certainly done for the year. Ironic, given he won an appeal to play this year after being implicated in the Adidas scandal.

David McCormack also looks like he's in for an early off-season. Or at least a very long layoff. Sad because I believe he was a target of ours, so you'd like to think he's a good kid. Certainly not a good look for him.

Also whoever the kid was dressed in black that came off the bench that didn't even dress for the game, he prolly won't dress for quite some time.

Bad look, all around. Will be a major fallout and may cripple Kansas for remainder of season.

- Chillin

Pretty sure I heard that the kid in the white pants is a player that's redshirting (xfer perhaps)


The steal and the block were both stupid. But being stupid isn't a particularly punishable offense. Especially these days. IMO.

That said, standing over the guy was what crossed the line. That was unnecessary, arrogant, and poor sportsmanship, in a home blowout no less.

I can totally see how that would set someone off.

- Chillin

I think the initial steal was a punk move. I understand playing hard and all that BS but when a team is not trying to score, they are essentially being nice to you so don't be a d*&k. Considering that the steal was a punk move, I actually loved the blocked shot...kid had that coming.

That's when the basketball stuff ends. When he took multiple steps over to straddle and taunt the KSU player the fuse was lit. Where I grew up you'd have gotten kicked in the nuts without hesitation. The KSU player who first came off the bench to address the issue will and should be suspended...but he might be viewed as heroic by the KSU fans. Not saying that's right but I get what he did there and at that age, I might have done the same.

Today the NCAA announced that as a result of the fracas that Grayson Allen will be suspended for the rest of the season.

In all seriousness, this fight and the reaction to it will really show how over the top and wrong the reaction to Grayson's actions were. Note that GA's second 'incident' occurred because an FSU player aggressively stole the ball from us as we were being nice and just running out the clock. GA floated towards the middle of the court right before the dickish steal, an FSU player comes from behind GA and hits him before trying to sprint out for an unsportsmanlike score. GA tripped him. We've beaten that subject to death but my main point is that unsportsmanlike acts like stealing the ball from a team being nice and dribbling out the clock can cause issues (like GA's). Extremely unsportsmanlike acts like walking over a guy can cause violent issues (and did so last night).

[curtis325]

I could not disagree more. If I'm a coach, I commend a player for fighting til the buzzer. I don't see it as "stat padding," I see it as "not giving anything away."

We see players do this all the time against Duke. We're fortunate that our team is frequently running out the clock, taking the foot off the gas, holding the ball at the top of the arc, watching the clock dribble down to zeros. If a Clemson player knocked the ball away from an inattentive Jack White (using this example because White is mostly impeccable when it comes to focus) and drove down the court for a dunk, would you suggest that warrants a hard foul from a Duke player, followed by a bench-clearing fracas?

KS's player was completely in his right to take the ball and go to the basket. The Jayhawk that followed after with the block was also certainly within his rights. The melee that ensued was completely nuts and unwarranted.

If Duke was down 12 at UNC with ten seconds to go, and Grayson Allen had made a steal and gone to the rack (not outside the realm of possibility) would you call for an 8 game suspension?

For Grayson, ESPN would call for a lifetime ban.

[scottdude8]

Gameday is scheduled to be in Lawrence this Saturday to highlight the SEC-Big 12 Challenge. I found it interesting during halftime of the Duke game how, every time that fact was brought up, the halftime host (I think it was Rece Davis?) kept emphasizing "This decision was made long before the events of tonight".

Now, I know we all have mixed (at best) feelings about Gameday, but there can be little doubt that hosting that event, and the resulting spotlight it puts on a school and a program, are beneficial to how that school is perceived. It wouldn't surprise me if schools use hosting that event as a recruiting tool. Heck, there are some major programs who haven't hosted Gameday in a while, or have done so infrequently (the Big Ten in general has hosted the event very sparingly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_GameDay_(basketball_TV_program)#Appearance s_by_school), probably due to their recent deals with Fox, but still) for whom hosting would be a huge deal.

All that said, I would love to see ESPN take a stand and take Gameday away. They probably can't move it at this late of a date, but they could easily just host the program from Bristol. Kansas basketball doesn't deserve any sort of spotlight after last night.

[clutch299]

Some interesting context that has to be considered here:

DeSousa was originally suspended for this entire season because he was in the middle of the Adidas/KU paying players scandal. KU appealed and won, so he's eligible.

Do you think the NCAA likes that a player who was originally suspended for this whole season is now at the middle of an ugly fight?

I know they're unrelated in terms of legality, but do you think last night's events help or hurt the argument that there is a lack of institutional control?

[lmb]

Heard a bunch of bunk from Fran Fraschilla this morning on Golic and Wingo. He was there in person to call the game. He actually suggested that De Sousa's reaction of standing over the KState player was due in part to his frustration with the NCAA for his past suspension due to the booster payment investigation. I couldn't believe he was offering that excuse for his behavior. Are we really to believe this wasn't just about ego, being disrepected, heat of the battle, etc.

Anyone else hear this? Probably not because Golic and Wingo is such a horrible show. I don't know why I even listen anymore.

[Acymetric]

All that said, I would love to see ESPN take a stand and take Gameday away. They probably can't move it at this late of a date, but they could easily just host the program from Bristol. Kansas basketball doesn't deserve any sort of spotlight after last night.

Are you kidding? This will be the best ratings for a College Gameday (basketball) ever, no way ESPN pulls out. The replay of the fight will be shown approximately 5,127 times.

[thedukelamere]

Are you kidding? This will be the best ratings for a College Gameday (basketball) ever, no way ESPN pulls out. The replay of the fight will be shown approximately 5,127 times.

They might even bring in more talking heads to recreate the what happened... Including Greenburg who will be a stand in for the fans to emphasize it was a handicap section :p

[lotusland]

Considering what happened because of this egregious, unsportsmanlike act, I have to say that I disagree with the bolded statement.



Pretty sure I heard that the kid in the white pants is a player that's redshirting (xfer perhaps)



I think the initial steal was a punk move. I understand playing hard and all that BS but when a team is not trying to score, they are essentially being nice to you so don't be a d*&k. Considering that the steal was a punk move, I actually loved the blocked shot...kid had that coming.

That's when the basketball stuff ends. When he took multiple steps over to straddle and taunt the KSU player the fuse was lit. Where I grew up you'd have gotten kicked in the nuts without hesitation. The KSU player who first came off the bench to address the issue will and should be suspended...but he might be viewed as heroic by the KSU fans. Not saying that's right but I get what he did there and at that age, I might have done the same.

Today the NCAA announced that as a result of the fracas that Grayson Allen will be suspended for the rest of the season.

In all seriousness, this fight and the reaction to it will really show how over the top and wrong the reaction to Grayson's actions were. Note that GA's second 'incident' occurred because an FSU player aggressively stole the ball from us as we were being nice and just running out the clock. GA floated towards the middle of the court right before the dickish steal, an FSU player comes from behind GA and hits him before trying to sprint out for an unsportsmanlike score. GA tripped him. We've beaten that subject to death but my main point is that unsportsmanlike acts like stealing the ball from a team being nice and dribbling out the clock can cause issues (like GA's). Extremely unsportsmanlike acts like walking over a guy can cause violent issues (and did so last night).

I think you are calling Grayson’s trip regular unsportsmanlike and DeSousas “standing over” as “extremely unsportsmanlike”. There no such thing as extremely unsportsmanlike behavior in the rule book but I could argue that being actually tripped is worse and could cause an actual injury while being “stood over” is painless and does not injure anything but one’s pride. Neither “causes” other people to lose their minds and start a riot unless they are already so inclined.

Personally I think the guy who stole the ball was asking for his pride to be injured. Others can disagree of course. The guy could have let KU run out the clock. DeSousa could have shook his head and pointed at the scoreboard. Neither “caused” other people to do anything. KState should have helped their teammate up and walked to the Free-throw line to shoot the technicals.

[uh_no]

So wanted to expand on my comments a bit from last night:

desousa's actions are exceptionally serious for a cople of reasons

1) he picked up a chair... Now, people say the fact that he didn't swing it was mitigating, but I disagree. First of all, there's a reason assault (or in this case, perhaps aggravated assault) is different from battery. Second, imagine you're nearby and desousa picks up a chair looking at you. You can't really get away due to the people and other flotsam strewn about, who among us is NOT going to pick up a chair in self defense? Now we have two people with chairs, and all the more likely for any of them to be swung. De sousa turned demonstrated that he was willing to turn your average ho-hum punchy-punchy time to weapons.



Rocks. Belts. Pipes. Cans. Bricks. Bats! Clubs! Chains! Bottles, knives, guns!

De sousa is the guy who pulls the knife first and Bernardo ends up dead.

2) ...in the crowd. He was straddling a woman when he picked up the chair for goodness sakes. https://i.ytimg.com/vi/UD8ajT6Ata8/maxresdefault.jpg Here's the image if you haven't seen it. This isn't marcus smart and a jawing fan, This isn't someone chucking stuff on court, and suddenly she is in danger because a player decided to use a piece of furniture in a fight. Nope. uhuh. bye bye. have a good summer, or in this case, a good life.


My belief in suspending the teams from postseason play stems from their lack of control. We all know this is an in-season rivalry, but we also know that the stakes get higher in single elimination tournaments. If the teams can't control themselves here, then how can they be trusted to do it when the stakes are upped further? Sorry, you don't get to fight in the stands and play on the big stage. Though, once you get to the later rounds, there is a chair on the court for coaches. So I suppose the players don't even need to leave the court to fight each other with stools! Though who knows, is de sousa going to chuck it into the crowd at an annoying fan? These guys can't be trusted to not endanger fans while playing a game. Maybe a year out will teach them some restraint. Can you imagine the size of the lawsuit if a fan were injured in a fight involving one of these two teams?

Fights happen relatively regularly. Rarely do they end up with players in the stands. Strong action should be taken to keep it that way.

[szstark]

I also remember J-Will making some late plays when the game was out of hand against Maryland... Until suddenly it wasn't.

The two situations aren't even close to being comparable. J-Will was down 10 points with a minute to go - K State was down 20+ with 10 seconds to go. The Maryland game was still competitive at the time. The K State game was not - did he think his dunk would be worth more than 20 points?

[clutch299]

For those of you keeping track at home:

Jan. 2017 - School investigation reveals LeGerald Vick likely committed multiple acts of domestic violence against girlfriend, recommends probation. It is unclear if he was ever punished by Self.
Jan. 2017 - Carlton Bragg suspended indefinitely for possession of drug paraphenalia (which was found during an investigation of a rape of a 16-year-old girl that occurred in the dormitory that houses the basketball team. KU players were named as witnesses but no charges for the rape were brought forward towards anyone on the team)

Feb. 2017 - Josh Jackson allegedly threatened a female KU basketball player and is charged with misdemeanor property damage to her car. Jackson suspended 1 game.

Sep. 2017 - Text messages between Self and Gassnola (Adidas) occurred, revealing Self's awareness of the pay to play scandal
Sep. 2017 - KU and Adidas nearly sign a contract extension for $191 million over 14 years, KU AD puts the deal on hold until 2019 when it is signed.

Oct. 2018 - FBI trial of Adidas scandal reveals DeSousa received money from Adidas and Self knew about it
Oct. 2018 - Silvio DeSousa suspended for rest of 2018-19 season and all of 2019-2020 season for accepting improper benefits

Sep. 2019 - KU receives Notice of Allegations from NCAA (including lack of institutional control)

Oct. 2019 - Snoop Dogg performs at KU's season-opening event with pole dancers, money guns and profane lyrics, prompting an apology from KU's AD

Jan. 2020 - The Duel with the Stool


Certainly seems like a program that has a pattern of skirting the rules or just plain outright breaking them.

[MChambers]

For those of you keeping track at home:

Jan. 2017 - School investigation reveals LeGerald Vick likely committed multiple acts of domestic violence against girlfriend, recommends probation. It is unclear if he was ever punished by Self.
Jan. 2017 - Carlton Bragg suspended indefinitely for possession of drug paraphenalia (which was found during an investigation of a rape of a 16-year-old girl that occurred in the dormitory that houses the basketball team. KU players were named as witnesses but no charges for the rape were brought forward towards anyone on the team)

Feb. 2017 - Josh Jackson allegedly threatened a female KU basketball player and is charged with misdemeanor property damage to her car. Jackson suspended 1 game.

Sep. 2017 - Text messages between Self and Gassnola (Adidas) occurred, revealing Self's awareness of the pay to play scandal
Sep. 2017 - KU and Adidas nearly sign a contract extension for $191 million over 14 years, KU AD puts the deal on hold until 2019 when it is signed.

Oct. 2018 - FBI trial of Adidas scandal reveals DeSousa received money from Adidas and Self knew about it
Oct. 2018 - Silvio DeSousa suspended for rest of 2018-19 season and all of 2019-2020 season for accepting improper benefits

Sep. 2019 - KU receives Notice of Allegations from NCAA (including lack of institutional control)

Oct. 2019 - Snoop Dogg performs at KU's season-opening event with pole dancers, money guns and profane lyrics, prompting an apology from KU's AD

Jan. 2020 - The Duel with the Stool


Certainly seems like a program that has a pattern of skirting the rules or just plain outright breaking them.

Here's an opinion piece from the Washington Post on Kansas. He gets some of it right, but I don't think he comes down hard enough on Self. https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/bill-self-called-kansas-basketball-fight-an-embarrassment-so-thats-what-it-took/2020/01/22/1bc04f92-3d19-11ea-b90d-5652806c3b3a_story.html

[ChillinDuke]

For the Malice at the Palace Pacers-Pistons brawl, Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson, and Jermaine O'Neal received suspensions of 86, 30, and 15 (reduced down from 25) games, respectively. Artest's suspension was for the full season, including playoffs.

That brawl was worse than this, for a variety of reasons. But I don't believe it's altogether irrelevant. And arguments could be made that suspensions here should be even more severe, despite the actual brawl being perhaps less offensive. These aren't professionals, and kids have been expelled from school for less.

Does anyone have a better comp? Failing that, I suspect that De Sousa is done for the year and McCormack will have a substantial (10-game or more) suspension. KSU player will likely also get something substantial although I don't know when he will play next, so his situation is a bit murkier.

- Chillin

[CDu]

For the Malice at the Palace Pacers-Pistons brawl, Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson, and Jermaine O'Neal received suspensions of 86, 30, and 15 (reduced down from 25) games, respectively. Artest's suspension was for the full season, including playoffs.

That brawl was worse than this, for a variety of reasons. But I don't believe it's altogether irrelevant. And arguments could be made that suspensions here should be even more severe, despite the actual brawl being perhaps less offensive. These aren't professionals, and kids have been expelled from school for less.

Does anyone have a better comp? Failing that, I suspect that De Sousa is done for the year and McCormack will have a substantial (10-game or more) suspension. KSU player will likely also get something substantial although I don't know when he will play next, so his situation is a bit murkier.

- Chillin

I don't think the Pacers brawl is at all relevant here. Mainly because the brawl wasn't between two teams - it was a case of players actively attacking fans. This fight did go into the area of the paying customers, but was still ultimately a fight between players. That's a BIG difference.

There have been other fights in college basketball. Perhaps the most comparable one I can think of is Cincy/Xavier from 2011. That fight resulted in some six-game suspensions. I would be surprised if anyone except De Sousa gets a bigger suspension than that.

[uh_no]

For the Malice at the Palace Pacers-Pistons brawl, Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson, and Jermaine O'Neal received suspensions of 86, 30, and 15 (reduced down from 25) games, respectively. Artest's suspension was for the full season, including playoffs.

That brawl was worse than this, for a variety of reasons. But I don't believe it's altogether irrelevant. And arguments could be made that suspensions here should be even more severe, despite the actual brawl being perhaps less offensive. These aren't professionals, and kids have been expelled from school for less.

Does anyone have a better comp? Failing that, I suspect that De Sousa is done for the year and McCormack will have a substantial (10-game or more) suspension. KSU player will likely also get something substantial although I don't know when he will play next, so his situation is a bit murkier.

- Chillin

FWIW, a season ending suspension would be 15-22 games for desousa.

How to compare attempting to use a weapon in a brawl with punching a fan? I'm sure everyone will weight them slightly differently, and I won't attempt to try to form a concensus there.

For another comparison:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esETGHljQi4

Simon used his stick as a weapon here and got 25 games. It's worse here because de sousa was in the stands, but mitigating as he didn't get the opportunity to use it.

[JasonEvans]

Has anyone been able to tell if Dotson (1) , Azubuike (35), or Agbaji (30) came off the bench? Cause if so I gotta put some serious coin on Tennessee for this weekend's game.

[Chicago 1995]

Pearl’s comments were really hard to process...totally off-the-mark, but maybe he thought (or hoped) his team was blameless and was trying to play nice. But I was also totally unsatisfied with Self’s comments. To say “this was not toughness...it was immaturity...bad look for the game” was a gross understatement. It was a step up from “boys will be boys”. I would rather he had been angry. He should have said it was totally unacceptable, and that he would review film and decide what action to take. That isn’t what I heard. I hope they both have stronger reactions after watching the film.

I also think the refs were totally wrong to bring the players back. Regardless of NCAA rules that the game must play out, this was clearly a situation in which sound judgment should top a stupid rule. (If necessary, they could have gone to the clock and made a judgment call that the clock had expired when KS player went out of bounds). Sheesh.

Having watched Weber during his stint at Illinois, his comments were as tone deaf as I would have expected. He's horrible behind a microphone, and it hastened his end at Illinois. Weber actually said he hoped there would be no long term repercussions, which is just mind-boggling, and should have leadership at K State asking Weber some tough questions.

I thought Self did say that Kansas would be reviewing the film and talking today about what actions should be taken, and that it was unacceptable. It came after his weird immaturity/toughness discussion, but he did talk about the right things, I thought.

[CDu]

Has anyone been able to tell if Dotson (1) , Azubuike (35), or Agbaji (30) came off the bench? Cause if so I gotta put some serious coin on Tennessee for this weekend's game.

Dotson and Azubuike were definitely over there (not actively involved, but there), and were not in the game at that point. I didn't see Agbaji.

But what usually happens is they stagger suspensions when a bunch of guys get suspended. So even if all 3 get suspended, they might not all 3 miss the next game.

Edit: I can confirm that Agbaji was over there too. And more involved than Azubuike or Doctson (not throwing punches, though). And he was also not in the game at the time.

[OldPhiKap]

For those of you keeping track at home:

Jan. 2017 - School investigation reveals LeGerald Vick likely committed multiple acts of domestic violence against girlfriend, recommends probation. It is unclear if he was ever punished by Self.
Jan. 2017 - Carlton Bragg suspended indefinitely for possession of drug paraphenalia (which was found during an investigation of a rape of a 16-year-old girl that occurred in the dormitory that houses the basketball team. KU players were named as witnesses but no charges for the rape were brought forward towards anyone on the team)

Feb. 2017 - Josh Jackson allegedly threatened a female KU basketball player and is charged with misdemeanor property damage to her car. Jackson suspended 1 game.

Sep. 2017 - Text messages between Self and Gassnola (Adidas) occurred, revealing Self's awareness of the pay to play scandal
Sep. 2017 - KU and Adidas nearly sign a contract extension for $191 million over 14 years, KU AD puts the deal on hold until 2019 when it is signed.

Oct. 2018 - FBI trial of Adidas scandal reveals DeSousa received money from Adidas and Self knew about it
Oct. 2018 - Silvio DeSousa suspended for rest of 2018-19 season and all of 2019-2020 season for accepting improper benefits

Sep. 2019 - KU receives Notice of Allegations from NCAA (including lack of institutional control)

Oct. 2019 - Snoop Dogg performs at KU's season-opening event with pole dancers, money guns and profane lyrics, prompting an apology from KU's AD

Jan. 2020 - The Duel with the Stool


Certainly seems like a program that has a pattern of skirting the rules or just plain outright breaking them.

Excellent breakdown. Has Self just broken bad, or was he always this way and I had not noticed? I had a vague belief that he was above-board until the last few seasons.

[ChillinDuke]

I don't think the Pacers brawl is at all relevant here. Mainly because the brawl wasn't between two teams - it was a case of players actively attacking fans. This fight did go into the area of the paying customers, but was still ultimately a fight between players. That's a BIG difference.

There have been other fights in college basketball. Perhaps the most comparable one I can think of is Cincy/Xavier from 2011. That fight resulted in some six-game suspensions. I would be surprised if anyone except De Sousa gets a bigger suspension than that.

I think it's relevant. Not a direct comp. But relevant. It wasn't a brawl between players and fans, but it was a brawl between players amongst fans. On the one hand, you have fans that were partially at fault and contributed. On the other, you have fans that did nothing and were unquestionably in some degree of danger.

They are different situations, but I would argue that they should result in similar levels of suspensions and penalties.

The Cincy/Xavier brawl mostly took place on the court. It's another data point, but the fan aspect here is of paramount importance. IMO.

- Chillin

[Phredd3]

First, I'm going to chime in on the side that neither the steal nor the emphatic block were anything more than basketball plays. As long as the clock is running, the game is on and liable to be played within the rules. Period. There is no fault to be apportioned up to that point. You tried to play on, and you showed convincingly why you were losing by 20.

De Sousa making the extra effort to go stand over DaJaun Gordon is the first action outside the rules. It is at a minimum technical foul worthy, and De Sousa was, in fact, correctly assessed a technical foul for that.

But one thing I haven't seen pointed out: Gordon takes his medicine. One of the angles shown last night focused on De Sousa standing over Gordon and taunting him. Very much to his credit, Gordon does nothing at all, except turn away from the taunt with a vaguely pained looked on his face. He makes absolutely no attempt to even get up, let alone engage with De Sousa. So the entire incident could have and should have stopped right there.

But there was an on-court player from KSU who ran in to protect Gordon, just as two KSU players (#11 and 34, I think) simultaneously got off the bench and moved in, and after that point all control was lost. The camera angles I saw then cut away to a close-up view away from the center of the building tussel, so at that point I have no idea who did what to whom.

I disagree with uh-no's take that De Sousa's letting go of the stool is not mitigating - it very much is. To me it looked like he picked up the stool, had a brief moment trying to find a target, and then thought better about it just as the coach came to help take the stool away. But I still very much agree with the rest of uh-no's analysis about the stool. Not using the stool is mitigating. It is not exonerating. De Sousa's punishment should still be very severe, and likely season-ending, but Kansas would have had to kick him completely out of school if he'd actually swung the stool. It's just lucky for him that he actually had that moment to reconsider.

In fact, I'd throw the book at anyone who actively went into the audience area. Any player who voluntarily entered an area where there was risk of injury to fans should be dealt with at their respective institutional level at a minimum, with the decision removed from the coaches' purview. When you leave the playing area, you have lost the protections inherent in the athletic department.

[CDu]

I think it's relevant. Not a direct comp. But relevant. It wasn't a brawl between players and fans, but it was a brawl between players amongst fans. On the one hand, you have fans that were partially at fault and contributed. On the other, you have fans that did nothing and were unquestionably in some degree of danger.

They are different situations, but I would argue that they should result in similar levels of suspensions and penalties.

- Chillin

I will be shocked if the suspensions for this come even remotely close to those suspensions.

[SavDukeGrad]

For those of you keeping track at home:

Jan. 2017 - School investigation reveals LeGerald Vick likely committed multiple acts of domestic violence against girlfriend, recommends probation. It is unclear if he was ever punished by Self.
Jan. 2017 - Carlton Bragg suspended indefinitely for possession of drug paraphenalia (which was found during an investigation of a rape of a 16-year-old girl that occurred in the dormitory that houses the basketball team. KU players were named as witnesses but no charges for the rape were brought forward towards anyone on the team)

Feb. 2017 - Josh Jackson allegedly threatened a female KU basketball player and is charged with misdemeanor property damage to her car. Jackson suspended 1 game.

Sep. 2017 - Text messages between Self and Gassnola (Adidas) occurred, revealing Self's awareness of the pay to play scandal
Sep. 2017 - KU and Adidas nearly sign a contract extension for $191 million over 14 years, KU AD puts the deal on hold until 2019 when it is signed.

Oct. 2018 - FBI trial of Adidas scandal reveals DeSousa received money from Adidas and Self knew about it
Oct. 2018 - Silvio DeSousa suspended for rest of 2018-19 season and all of 2019-2020 season for accepting improper benefits

Sep. 2019 - KU receives Notice of Allegations from NCAA (including lack of institutional control)

Oct. 2019 - Snoop Dogg performs at KU's season-opening event with pole dancers, money guns and profane lyrics, prompting an apology from KU's AD

Jan. 2020 - The Duel with the Stool


Certainly seems like a program that has a pattern of skirting the rules or just plain outright breaking them.

Thank you for summarizing the past 3 years for us. I knew there were instances that made me think skeptically of Kansas, I just couldn’t remember a lot of specifics. I totally agree with your conclusions about the program’s pattern of behavior. A couple of other points iirc:

There was noise at one point about Josh Jackson’s mother receiving large sums of money from Adidas to run her AAU team when he was in high school. I don’t think anything ever came of it. (I do realize this is similar to the arrangement Marvin Bagley’s father had with Nike.) But if memory serves, the amounts to Jackson’s mother were quite significant and didn’t seem to have any correlation to “running the team”. At the time, I wished someone would have investigated Jackson’s eligibility, although I guess that could be part of the NCAA’s charges.

Also didn’t Silvio DeSousa play in our 2018 Elite 8 loss to Kansas, before the information came out and he was ruled ineligible for the next 2 seasons? I thought at the time that the ineligibility should have been retroactive, and they should have been stripped of that Final Four appearance and forfeited all wins in games in which he played. (I realize that wouldn’t have helped us, just thought it seemed fair).

Imo Kansas doesn’t belong in the conversation about the blue bloods, and hasn’t for quite some time. I put them in a group with Arizona - schools that are willing to tolerate anything as long as the head coach wins. And wins at all costs. I think the administration’s response to the NCAA allegations perfectly illustrate this. Just win, baby! I mean heck, even LSU suspended their coach for a few games...

I also realize that my feelings about Kansas have nothing to do with the events last night.

[OldPhiKap]

De Sousa did not let go of the stool, a coach knocked it out of his hands. I think.

[CDu]

De Sousa did not let go of the stool, a coach knocked it out of his hands. I think.

Eh, I think what the poster was saying was that he appeared to have sort of given up the idea of actually using the stool by then. It didn't exactly take much effort to remove the stool from De Sousa's hands. He let it go pretty easy, especially when you consider how big and strong he is.

Now, I don't think that's exonerating. He's going to get a big punishment for sure. But I do think it mitigates to some degree. We'll see.

[unclsam1]

One of the root cause of this type of incident in college is the increase in the number of aggressive incidents in the NBA that get played over and over in the sports highlights providing entertainment for viewers. The aggressive behavior is modeled before a national audience including college players and is portrayed as tough and competitive behavior. Fines and suspensions in the NBA that are sometimes/maybe often reduced don't seem to have that much of an impact on the players given their salaries. College players will have a lot more to loose on the downside for incidents like yesterday. As long as aggressive behavior on or near the basketball court is used for entertainment value, there is a greater likelihood we will see more of it in college, eg. also yesterday was the Illinois player stomping on (not stepping) on a Purdue player lying on the floor.

[uh_no]

De Sousa did not let go of the stool, a coach knocked it out of his hands. I think.

That's what I've read. It's hard to tell from the video, IMO, and I thought at first he had dropped it, but it seems like someone does grab it from him.

[Phredd3]

Eh, I think what the poster was saying was that he appeared to have sort of given up the idea of actually using the stool by then. It didn't exactly take much effort to remove the stool from De Sousa's hands. He let it go pretty easy, especially when you consider how big and strong he is.

Yes, this is exactly what I meant. He didn't even look back at the stool. If it was taken from him, it was done pretty much exactly at the moment he'd already decided to relinquish it on his own.

Again, mitigating, but not exonerating. He rightfully should have a very severe suspension heading his way.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Eh, I think what the poster was saying was that he appeared to have sort of given up the idea of actually using the stool by then. It didn't exactly take much effort to remove the stool from De Sousa's hands. He let it go pretty easy, especially when you consider how big and strong he is.

Now, I don't think that's exonerating. He's going to get a big punishment for sure. But I do think it mitigates to some degree. We'll see.

Good Lord CDu and I agree again...that above is exactly my take, on what happened - including the notion of the ramifications in bold. One thing I would add that not many, if any, have mentioned...is that being a poor winner is to me a higher crime than a poor loser. Kansas was polishing off their rivals by 20...they have no excuse to have a short fuse.

[OldPhiKap]

I wonder how many games Cleveland State will have to forfeit for this.

[UrinalCake]

If you look closely, you’ll be able to identify quite a few of Kansas’s starters.

Link (https://giphy.com/gifs/jerryspringer-the-jerry-springer-show-3oEjHGoF0j8o9HUuju)

[CDu]

That's what I've read. It's hard to tell from the video, IMO, and I thought at first he had dropped it, but it seems like someone does grab it from him.

The stool was definitely taken away from him by a coach/assistant. Whether or not there was much effort required to do so (i.e., how attached De Sousa was to the chair at that point) is unclear. He had pretty much stopped moving toward the ruckus by that point.

[CDu]

If you look closely, you’ll be able to identify quite a few of Kansas’s starters.

Link (https://giphy.com/gifs/jerryspringer-the-jerry-springer-show-3oEjHGoF0j8o9HUuju)

Pretty much their entire team was over there. Probably true of KSU too. So, yes, you should be able to identify their starters as being off the bench.

I confirmed earlier that Doctson and Azubuike were lurkers. Agbaji was more involved, though not throwing punches. We know already that De Sousa and McCormack were prominently involved. Jalen Wilson was over there too. As was Marcus Garrett.

[Tooold]

In fact, I'd throw the book at anyone who actively went into the audience area. Any player who voluntarily entered an area where there was risk of injury to fans should be dealt with at their respective institutional level at a minimum, with the decision removed from the coaches' purview. When you leave the playing area, you have lost the protections inherent in the athletic department.

Agree completely. The fact that no one was hurt is simply dumb luck. They put a lot of people in harm’s way, including children and some others who presumably did not have the ability to get out of the way quickly. I don’t really think that a fortunate outcome should lessen the punishment.

I don’t really care what either player did to set this up...to me, the only relevant facts are that:
1) this was a brawl
2) it took place outside the court lines and in a spectator area
3) many spectators were in real danger of being seriously hurt

[MartyClark]

For the Malice at the Palace Pacers-Pistons brawl, Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson, and Jermaine O'Neal received suspensions of 86, 30, and 15 (reduced down from 25) games, respectively. Artest's suspension was for the full season, including playoffs.

That brawl was worse than this, for a variety of reasons. But I don't believe it's altogether irrelevant. And arguments could be made that suspensions here should be even more severe, despite the actual brawl being perhaps less offensive. These aren't professionals, and kids have been expelled from school for less.

Does anyone have a better comp? Failing that, I suspect that De Sousa is done for the year and McCormack will have a substantial (10-game or more) suspension. KSU player will likely also get something substantial although I don't know when he will play next, so his situation is a bit murkier.

- Chillin

Anybody else remember the Ohio State-Minnesota basketball brawl in 1972. It was brutal. Players actually got hurt. If I recall correctly, and I may not, Dave Winfield (future MLB player) decked a couple of people and got little or no punishment.

[cspan37421]

De Sousa did not let go of the stool, a coach knocked it out of his hands. I think.

People are really disagreeing on this one.

To me, it looked like there were failed attempts at removing it from his hands, but then he let it go on his own.
I wouldn't bet my life on that, but that's how it appeared to me. I went back to review the video a few times to see who the "hero" was who took the stool from him, and to my surprise, it didn't look like anyone did. Again, I could be wrong.

It might well be worse for him if it's not clear that he let go of it on his own. That takes mitigation off the table.

[Troublemaker]

Here's the George Papas (Monmouth player) end-of-game steal and dunk against KU in a similar dribbling-out-the-clock-in-a-blowout situation from earlier this season. It doesn't change right or wrong about the players' actions in the KU/KSU brawl but adds context.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTcxm7OiHXg

[MChambers]

Anybody else remember the Ohio State-Minnesota basketball brawl in 1972. It was brutal. Players actually got hurt. If I recall correctly, and I may not, Dave Winfield (future MLB player) decked a couple of people and got little or no punishment.

Luke Witte, the OSU center, had lasting injuries.

I don't think Winfield was a part of that brawl, however. Maybe he joined the team after it lost so many players to suspension? Edit: having reread the SI piece, yes, Winfield was involved.

Here's the SI recap, which I remember reading in high school: https://www.si.com/vault/1972/02/07/565933/an-ugly-affair-in-minneapolis

[Indoor66]

Are you kidding? This will be the best ratings for a College Gameday (basketball) ever, no way ESPN pulls out. The replay of the fight will be shown approximately 5,127 times.

How many times the 2nd hour?

[fuse]

I can’t tell from the video who from either coaching staff is involved/helping defuse the situation, and who is not.

Whatever happens to the players, the coaching staff should be held accountable, and be subject to fines, suspensions, etc, as well.

[uh_no]

Luke Witte, the OSU center, had lasting injuries.

I don't think Winfield was a part of that brawl, however. Maybe he joined the team after it lost so many players to suspension? Edit: having reread the SI piece, yes, Winfield was involved.

Here's the SI recap, which I remember reading in high school: https://www.si.com/vault/1972/02/07/565933/an-ugly-affair-in-minneapolis

I was today days old when I learned about this fight. I also didn't realize it's what initially caused pre-game dunks to be banned.

[Indoor66]

FWIW, a season ending suspension would be 15-22 games for desousa.

How to compare attempting to use a weapon in a brawl with punching a fan? I'm sure everyone will weight them slightly differently, and I won't attempt to try to form a concensus there.

For another comparison:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esETGHljQi4

Simon used his stick as a weapon here and got 25 games. It's worse here because de sousa was in the stands, but mitigating as he didn't get the opportunity to use it.

I fail to see mitigation when his stopping the Battery is caused by the actions of another person.

[johnb]

Heard a bunch of bunk from Fran Fraschilla this morning on Golic and Wingo. .. He actually suggested that De Sousa's reaction of standing over the KState player was due in part to his frustration with the NCAA for his past suspension due to the booster payment investigation...

DeSousa's standing over a fallen opponent as a performance art piece protesting NCAA Bureaucracy. I like it.

He's also 6'9" 245 lbs. He and a variety of like-sized young men get into a brawl which includes a large metal weapon. Police stand idly by. Dozens of people are scrapping around, a few feet from a variety of vulnerable subjects (children, cheerleaders, sensitive coaches). And DeSousa hands over the chair to some old guy? And the stomper doesn't seem to connect? And as far as we know, no one gets hurt? I thought Millenials were ineffective, but Gen Z's... get with the program.

[uh_no]

I fail to see mitigation when his stopping the Battery is caused by the actions of another person.

for the same reason assault and battery are different crimes. You can't assume the battery would have happened just because the assault did....which is minority report pre-crime levels of fallacious reasoning.

I detailed above why I think even picking it up is extremely serious, and one could reasonably assign the same seriousness to both.

[sagegrouse]

DeSousa's standing over a fallen opponent as a performance art piece protesting NCAA Bureaucracy. I like it.

He's also 6'9" 245 lbs. He and a variety of like-sized young men get into a brawl which includes a large metal weapon. Police stand idly by. Dozens of people are scrapping around, a few feet from a variety of vulnerable subjects (children, cheerleaders, sensitive coaches). And DeSousa hands over the chair to some old guy? And the stomper doesn't seem to connect? And as far as we know, no one gets hurt? I thought Millenials were ineffective, but Gen Z's... get with the program.

Not just "children, cheerleaders, sensitive coaches." The melee spilled over into the handicap seating section.

[JasonEvans]

ESPN says De Sousa has been suspended "indefinitely." (https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28538390/jayhawks-silvio-de-sousa-suspended-indefinitely-role-brawl-kansas-state)Likely the first of many actions to be taken here.


The school did not reveal a specific length of De Sousa's suspension or additional punishment for any other player, citing its joint review with the Big 12 Conference.

[Indoor66]

for the same reason assault and battery are different crimes. You can't assume the battery would have happened just because the assault did...which is minority report pre-crime levels of fallacious reasoning.

I detailed above why I think even picking it up is extremely serious, and one could reasonably assign the same seriousness to both.

We are not talking of charging him with a crime of assault with a deadly weapon. We are discussing elements to be considered in assessing consequences for participation in the fight and the nature and extent of participation and actions. To me, grabbing and raising the chair in an aggressive and threatening manner is very serious. The fact that third party intervention prevented a Battery does not serve to in any way exonerate the young man.

[UrinalCake]

If you look closely, you’ll be able to identify quite a few of Kansas’s starters.

Link (https://giphy.com/gifs/jerryspringer-the-jerry-springer-show-3oEjHGoF0j8o9HUuju)


Pretty much their entire team was over there.

I’m guessing you didn’t actually view the link I posted...

[CameronBornAndBred]

ESPN says De Sousa has been suspended "indefinitely." (https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28538390/jayhawks-silvio-de-sousa-suspended-indefinitely-role-brawl-kansas-state)Likely the first of many actions to be taken here.

They had to do something of course, but hopefully the NCAA/Big12 decides that permanent is more warranted. If he hadn't picked up the chair, I wouldn't be so supportive of that and would say a few games is fine.

[CDu]

I’m guessing you didn’t actually view the link I posted...

Nope, I sure didn't.

[Phredd3]

ESPN says De Sousa has been suspended "indefinitely." (https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28538390/jayhawks-silvio-de-sousa-suspended-indefinitely-role-brawl-kansas-state)Likely the first of many actions to be taken here.

That's not much of an action. As I'm sure we all recall, Grayson was "suspended indefinitely" for one game. Not that I'm equating Grayson's actions to the brawl, I'm simply saying that "indefinite" means exactly what we think it means. When they announce what the actual suspension is, then I'll be satisfied (or not) they've done something worth doing.

Right now, they are simply punting.

[SCMatt33]

They had to do something of course, but hopefully the NCAA/Big12 decides that permanent is more warranted. If he hadn't picked up the chair, I wouldn't be so supportive of that and would say a few games is fine.

Just for the record, the NCAA is highly unlikely to be involved in this decision. The NCAA does have rules (located in the basketball rules) defining fighting and they prescribe a penalty of 1 game for a first offense and rest of season for a second offense within the same year. It also gives the conferences the option to issue more severe penalties. This is why Bill Self’s statement specifically mentioned KU/Big 12 review and not NCAA review.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

That's not much of an action. As I'm sure we all recall, Grayson was "suspended indefinitely" for one game. Not that I'm equating Grayson's actions to the brawl, I'm simply saying that "indefinite" means exactly what we think it means. When they announce what the actual suspension is, then I'll be satisfied (or not) they've done something worth doing.

Right now, they are simply punting.

Grayson was suspended for only one game...but it was a period of the season with the big break...he was suspended for 8 days. In many 8 day periods, that would be 3 games. He still had the shame of missing practices and being off to the side for the entire 8 days. I'm not sure that's relevant here, just thought I'd bring in some perspective to the Grayson "one game."

[DukieInKansas]

Eh, I think what the poster was saying was that he appeared to have sort of given up the idea of actually using the stool by then. It didn't exactly take much effort to remove the stool from De Sousa's hands. He let it go pretty easy, especially when you consider how big and strong he is.

Now, I don't think that's exonerating. He's going to get a big punishment for sure. But I do think it mitigates to some degree. We'll see.

That may have been because there were no KSU players nearby at that particular time. He dropped the stool and headed toward the KSU player on the ground. Bill Self eventually grabbed him and held him against the wall.

[Edouble]

I remember JWill against Maryland, running out the clock and making fake passing motions to taunt the twerps.

That was against Troy Bell of (pre-ACC) Boston College at Cameron. Bell shoved Jason into the scorer's table.


I seem to recall Dahntay Jones doing pushups over a guy after dunking on him.

Sort of "over". Dahntay had one foot on UVA's Nick VanderLaan, mostly because of they both landed after the posterizing dunk. I think the point was more the pushups than doing pushups over the guy, IMHO.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

That was against Troy Bell of (pre-ACC) Boston College at Cameron. Bell shoved Jason into the scorer's table.



Sort of "over". Dahntay had one foot on UVA's Nick VanderLaan, mostly because of they both landed after the posterizing dunk. I think the point was more the pushups than doing pushups over the guy, IMHO.

At the end of the day, these are all (mostly) teenagers we are talking about here. Good to remember that and keep in perspective.

[kako]

If Duke ever is involved in something like what happened last night, then I hope Duke would suspend anyone who threw a punch. Anyone going farther than that, like DeSousa or the other guy stomping on Love, would be expelled. For those that came off the bench, they should be suspended for at least a game. If they left the bench and threw punches, then more games or even full suspensions (I'd advocate that for Love). If that means Duke forfeits the next game, I'd be fine with that. Take the high road, make a stand, do the right thing. I don't have to be proud of the players, I need to be proud of my alma mater.

A. I don't think KU or KSU will do this (yeah, I saw De Sousa got suspended indefinitely, but that doesn't mean he's gone yet). Or even consider it.
B. I don't think Duke under K would ever let this happen en masse like it did last night.

Lastly, I suspect someone in the stands will be suing somebody. This is America, after all.

9F

PS - for the record, the steal was bush-league but legal. The block was clean, the taunting was a technical. Everything after that should result in suspensions/expulsions.

[KandG]

I don't think the Pacers brawl is at all relevant here. Mainly because the brawl wasn't between two teams - it was a case of players actively attacking fans. This fight did go into the area of the paying customers, but was still ultimately a fight between players. That's a BIG difference.


I agree with CDu on this one -- Malice at the Palace was a genuine outlier of a brawl and didn't feel anything like what happened at Kansas. The brawl that came to mind when I watched the highlights last night was the one during the Knicks-Bulls playoff series over 25 years ago which involved Derek Harper and Jojo English, but ended up spilling into the stands right in front of then NBA commissioner David Stern and resulted in the benches emptying.

https://www.nytimes.com/1994/05/14/sports/pro-basketball-storm-clouds-for-knicks-bulls-win-after-brawl.html

This brawl so angered Stern and Rod Thorn that it resulted in the creation of a rule mandating suspensions for leaving the bench during a fight (rather than just fines). Knicks and Suns fans still rue the extreme application of the "leaving the bench" rule as it arguably cost them playoff series in subsequent seasons.

The actual suspensions and fines for Knicks and Bulls players involved back then were relatively mild because it was the playoffs and the league was considerably more physical then (though the cost of missing two playoff games is pretty dramatic at any time). I suspect we'll see longer suspensions for the primary participants in this one.

[lotusland]

I had a few knucklehead friends in HS and college who’d start scrapping with strangers at the first unkind word or the drop of a hat. To me these guys look like they’re reluctantly standing up for themselves and their buddies but not actually trying to hurt anyone. A lot of air punches were thrown. Teenage boys are full of testosterone and subsequently they make a lot of bad decisions for which they have to suffer consequences. But let’s not act like these guys are a bunch of predators. That would have been any Friday night at the Pizza Hut in my HS town.

[budwom]

ESPN says De Sousa has been suspended "indefinitely." (https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28538390/jayhawks-silvio-de-sousa-suspended-indefinitely-role-brawl-kansas-state)Likely the first of many actions to be taken here.

Typical Bill Self, the school suspends the kid "indefinitely" which means virtually nothing. Sounds good, means little...Self will wait for the storm to pass, try to sneak him back on the team.

[CDu]

I agree with CDu on this one -- Malice at the Palace was a genuine outlier of a brawl and didn't feel anything like what happened at Kansas. The brawl that came to mind when I watched the highlights last night was the one during the Knicks-Bulls playoff series over 25 years ago which involved Derek Harper and Jojo English, but ended up spilling into the stands right in front of then NBA commissioner David Stern and resulted in the benches emptying.

https://www.nytimes.com/1994/05/14/sports/pro-basketball-storm-clouds-for-knicks-bulls-win-after-brawl.html

This brawl so angered Stern and Rod Thorn that it resulted in the creation of a rule mandating suspensions for leaving the bench during a fight (rather than just fines). Knicks and Suns fans still rue the extreme application of the "leaving the bench" rule as it arguably cost them playoff series in subsequent seasons.

The actual suspensions and fines for Knicks and Bulls players involved back then were relatively mild because it was the playoffs and the league was considerably more physical then (though the cost of missing two playoff games is pretty dramatic at any time). I suspect we'll see longer suspensions for the primary participants in this one.

Yeah, I think the Cincy/Xavier fight from 2011 is much more applicable. In that one, a couple of guys got 6 game suspensions, a couple got 4, and some got one.

I think we'll see something like:

De Sousa gets 10+ (it comes down to how much they emphasize the raising of the table in a threatening manner) for throwing punches and waiving around a table;
Love (the guy in street clothes for KSU, out with an injury) probably gets 6 for leaving the bench and throwing punches;
McCormack probably gets 2-3 for throwing punches;
Others maybe get 1 for leaving the bench.

I didn't see anyone else throwing punches, but if there were others throwing punches that should escalate their suspensions.

[cspan37421]

Teenage boys are full of testosterone and subsequently they make a lot of bad decisions

According to Robert Sapolsky's The Trouble with Testosterone, that view of cause and effect is, contrary to popular belief, backwards.

[MartyClark]

According to Robert Sapolsky's The Trouble with Testosterone, that view of cause and effect is, contrary to popular belief, backwards.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Can you explain? Thanks

[throatybeard]

I'd say good job whoever titled the thread.

[weezie]

... I suspect someone in the stands will be suing somebody. This is America, after all...

I hope they do. Especially the lady with the leg cast who was under one of the player pile-ons. Or the person in the wheelchair. I'd even sue on behalf of the owner of the poor assistance dog who completely freaked out.

[robed deity]

Can't find a clip right now, but props to the Jayhawk for staying in character.

[uh_no]

I'd say good job whoever titled the thread.

https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?44732-The-Phracas-at-the-Phog&p=1216786#post1216786

It's why I try to keep my punnery sharp :D

[MCFinARL]

There was mention of the KSt guy on Sports center after our game. Uncle Fester said he too should be suspended for rest of season. But I agree that it seems like most of the focus has been on DeSousa.

The other thing not being talked about is how Bruce Pearl's comments after the game are mostly dismissive and not giving any culpability to his guys, saying he hopes nothing comes of it. At least Self called it an embarrassment.

To be fair, I'm not sure Bruce Pearl has much responsibility here. Bruce Weber, on the other hand...

Sorry--I now see Chicago 1999 already pointed this out. Missed that page of the thread.

[Hingeknocker]

Can't find a clip right now, but props to the Jayhawk for staying in character.

Referring to this? (Sound on.)

https://twitter.com/CWilliamson44/status/1219818343223504898?s=19

[robed deity]

Referring to this? (Sound on.)

https://twitter.com/CWilliamson44/status/1219818343223504898?s=19

Haha bingo.

[BD80]

ESPN says De Sousa has been suspended "indefinitely." (https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28538390/jayhawks-silvio-de-sousa-suspended-indefinitely-role-brawl-kansas-state)Likely the first of many actions to be taken here.


Typical Bill Self, the school suspends the kid "indefinitely" which means virtually nothing. Sounds good, means little...Self will wait for the storm to pass, try to sneak him back on the team.

I understand that Self will soon announce that Grayson Allen is permanently suspended.




... Teenage boys are full of testosterone and subsequently they make a lot of bad decisions ...


According to Robert Sapolsky's The Trouble with Testosterone, that view of cause and effect is, contrary to popular belief, backwards.


Bad decisions cause the production of testosterone?

[MChambers]

Bad decisions cause the production of testosterone?

Good to know!

[camion]

...

Bad decisions cause the production of testosterone?

So the takeaway from that is I need to make more bad decisions? :confused:

I can do that.

[OldPhiKap]

Bad decisions cause the production of testosterone?

How do you think I got this buff?

[TKG]

Da Sousa gets 12 game suspension according to ESPN. He would return for the final regular season game against Texas Tech

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28540541/kansas-silvio-de-sousa-gets-12-game-ban-big-12-suspends-four-brawl-vs-kansas-state

[RaiderDevil]

Da Sousa gets 12 game suspension according to ESPN. He would return for the final regular season game against Texas Tech

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28540541/kansas-silvio-de-sousa-gets-12-game-ban-big-12-suspends-four-brawl-vs-kansas-state

Not long enough. Should be done forever.

[bundabergdevil]

Da Sousa gets 12 game suspension according to ESPN. He would return for the final regular season game against Texas Tech

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28540541/kansas-silvio-de-sousa-gets-12-game-ban-big-12-suspends-four-brawl-vs-kansas-state

That’s it? That seems light for the chair regardless of whether the blow landed.

[Acymetric]

Not long enough. Should be done forever.

Nah. That and the rest of the suspensions are about right.

[Acymetric]

That’s it? That seems light for the chair regardless of whether the blow landed.

There was no blow to land, he never swung the stool.

[DrChainsaw]

How do you think I got this buff?

Huh. All I got was Male pattern baldness...

[CDu]

Nah. That and the rest of the suspensions are about right.

Yeah, I had guessed 10+ for De Sousa, 6 for Love, 2-3 for McCormack, and maybe one each for folks leaving the bench. Sounds like the conference gave folks the “the clock was at 0 so we thought the game was over” benefit of the doubt on bench clearing, and must decided that Gordon threw a punch (bumping him up to 3 games). So I agree that it feels about right.

[BD80]

Da Sousa gets 12 game suspension according to ESPN. He would return for the final regular season game against Texas Tech

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28540541/kansas-silvio-de-sousa-gets-12-game-ban-big-12-suspends-four-brawl-vs-kansas-state


That is just the conference acting.

Self and KU could add more severe discipline …


Golly, I really crack myself up sometimes.

[JayZee]

There was no blow to land, he never swung the stool.

Exactly. Looked bad, even horrible. But definitely not “criminal” as many of the pundits have cried. There is a huge difference between picking up a chair and swinging a chair, much less landing an actual blow. Now I guess if someone was hurt when he dropped it, there could be some negligence or something. Honestly McCormack stomping on a guy, if he did land a blow, is much worse. That was no Laettner love stomp, that was intent to hurt...

[sagegrouse]

There was no blow to land, he never swung the stool.


Exactly. Looked bad, even horrible. But definitely not “criminal” as many of the pundits have cried. There is a huge difference between picking up a chair and swinging a chair, much less landing an actual blow. Now I guess if someone was hurt when he dropped it, there could be some negligence or something. Honestly McCormack stomping on a guy, if he did land a blow, is much worse. That was no Laettner love stomp, that was intent to hurt...

I'll let the legal eagles hereabouts sort out for you the definition of "assault" vs. "assault and battery."

[Steven43]

Nah. That and the rest of the suspensions are about right.

What kind of value do you place on the sheer terror factor of a 6’9” 245 lb. man grabbing a metal chair and raising it above his head in anger seemingly about to use it as a weapon of destruction on defenseless unprotected people wearing nothing put street clothes (or a basketball uniform)?

You don’t think that terrifying act in and of itself deserves more than a suspension from some basketball games? Those folks who were in the direct line of fire from what he was threatening to do could have been psychologically traumatized, not only in the moment, but long-term. He could have easily killed someone with that chair.

[Acymetric]

I'll let the legal eagles hereabouts sort out for you the definition of "assault" vs. "assault and battery."

Pretty sure that act doesn't meet the criteria for assault.

[arnie]

That is just the conference acting.

Self and KU could add more severe discipline …


Golly, I really crack myself up sometimes.

Now that is funny😀😎😀

[bundabergdevil]

There was no blow to land, he never swung the stool.

Never had the opportunity to swing by my viewing. Big difference from simply not swinging. I’m of the mind that he grabbed a weapon and intended to use it. Punishment seems light to me but I really don’t have great context for how these things are calculated to begin with.

[JayZee]

Pretty sure that act doesn't meet the criteria for assault.

What you think D’Souza gets if he doesn’t pick up that chair? I mean, the block was clean. Sure he stood over the guy, but he didn’t touch him. Even when KState players rush him, he pretty much just stood his ground. Dude is a big strong guy, btw, dang. Looked to me like a Kstate guy initiated contact. Yep then D’Souza threw some haymakers, but then kind of fell back and backed away. Pause it there. If he just stands up, even walks towards the ongoing melee, 2 game suspension. But, he grabs and lifts that chair and takes a few steps. Looks like it’s going to be really bad, but he drops the chair. I don’t think it was grabbed from him, he really just kind of drops it. Truly unfortunate situation. Really bad judgement. Thank goodness for everyone he didn’t swing that thing.

[brevity]

What kind of value do you place on the sheer terror factor of a 6’9” 245 lb. man grabbing a metal chair and raising it above his head in anger seemingly about to use it as a weapon of destruction on defenseless unprotected people wearing nothing put street clothes (or a basketball uniform)?

You don’t think that terrifying act in and of itself deserves more than a suspension from some basketball games? Those folks who were in the direct line of fire from what he was threatening to do could have been psychologically traumatized, not only in the moment, but long-term. He could have easily killed someone with that chair.

Last I checked, the Big 12 Conference does not represent or adjudicate the legal interests of people who were in the line of fire, much less their psychological well-being. More repercussions are forthcoming in the legal system; many people on the Internet might be surprised to learn that it takes more than 24 hours for any civil claims or even criminal charges to be filed.

[CDu]

What you think D’Souza gets if he doesn’t pick up that chair? I mean, the block was clean. Sure he stood over the guy, but he didn’t touch him. Even when KState players rush him, he pretty much just stood his ground. Dude is a big strong guy, btw, dang. Looked to me like a Kstate guy initiated contact. Yep then D’Souza threw some haymakers, but then kind of fell back and backed away. Pause it there. If he just stands up, even walks towards the ongoing melee, 2 game suspension. But, he grabs and lifts that chair and takes a few steps. Looks like it’s going to be really bad, but he drops the chair. I don’t think it was grabbed from him, he really just kind of drops it. Truly unfortunate situation. Really bad judgement. Thank goodness for everyone he didn’t swing that thing.

He threw a few punches too.

[Utley]

10138

A Kansas friend sent me this updated version of their logo. Rock - Chalk - ChairDrop :)

[devildeac]

That is just the conference acting.

Self and KU could add more severe discipline …


Golly, I really crack myself up sometimes.

Yea, maybe take away his Adidas money.

Shoulda been gone for good. And McCormack only gets 2 games? WTH?

[JayZee]

i mean, assault is literally a crime based on making people feel afraid...

This is for the lawyers, but would assault ever be charged after battery had already been committed? It was pretty clear to me that he did not throw the first punch. He definitely retaliated, but also he temporarily backed away. It was then that he picked up the chair and walked (not rushed) back towards the fight. One could argue that he was defending/protecting himself.

Oh, and btw, his block was clean.

[brevity]

Last I checked, the Big 12 Conference does not represent or adjudicate the legal interests of people who were in the line of fire, much less their psychological well-being. More repercussions are forthcoming in the legal system; many people on the Internet might be surprised to learn that it takes more than 24 hours for any civil claims or even criminal charges to be filed.


You think charges are going to be filed?

Since you asked, I'll post again.

Generally, players initiate a lot of violent contact in sporting events, but they are rarely subject to criminal prosecution or even civil liability because their acts are contained in a very large protective bubble called assumption of risk. Just as opposing players expect to get hit, camera operators, cheerleaders, and other people on sidelines and courtside expect to dodge balls and players flying out of bounds. Nachos and popcorn and beer get spilled. Clothes get stained. They bought tickets to, essentially, the splash zone.

On occasion, though, an act is so beyond the assumption of risk as to burst that protective bubble. Think hockey stick attacks and the more extreme foul ball cases. A basketball melee that spills off the court would count as such an event.

I didn't see anyone get injured, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. In my opinion, civil claims from innocent bystanders seem likely, unless a bunch of quick settlements are made that would keep untouched victims happy. I'm less sure about seeing any civil claims from any players, cheerleaders, and others affiliated with the University who experience no physical injury.

I think criminal charges are also likely, if the prosecutor can overcome the political perils of antagonizing the University.

[miramar]

I understand that Self will soon announce that Grayson Allen is permanently suspended.

Cleveland State will lose its leading scorer for the rest of the season.

[toughbuff1]

This is for the lawyers, but would assault ever be charged after battery had already been committed? It was pretty clear to me that he did not throw the first punch. He definitely retaliated, but also he temporarily backed away. It was then that he picked up the chair and walked (not rushed) back towards the fight. One could argue that he was defending/protecting himself.

Oh, and btw, his block was clean.

It would be a bad argument. If he had to walk back towards the fray, he was by definition not in it, thus the only thing he needed to do to “defend himself” was stay right where he was.

[cspan37421]

Bad decisions cause the production of testosterone?

According to Sapolsky's 1997 book, more or less, yes. For a wide range of levels (let's say 20% to 200% of normal levels), testosterone doesn't cause aggression; rather, aggression elevates testosterone secretion (p. 151 of paperback). There are a lot of subtleties to how it operates, and he states that its role/function is almost always perceived and portrayed incorrectly.

He concedes things are usually different at the extremes, though. If you can drive it to zero, say through an operation, aggression plummets. However, if you reintroduce it synthetically, say to only 20% of pre-op levels, 100% of pre-op "normal" aggression returns.

It's pretty nuanced, and worth a read. I imagine there are some updates in his latest book.

[BD80]

Here's the George Papas (Monmouth player) end-of-game steal and dunk against KU in a similar dribbling-out-the-clock-in-a-blowout situation from earlier this season. It doesn't change right or wrong about the players' actions in the KU/KSU brawl but adds context.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTcxm7OiHXg


...

UNC should go to Hell and get the death penalty.

King Rice coaches Monmouth, the Monmouth-KU game was the catalyst for the KU-KSU square dance. I'd say the death penalty for unc is fully warranted.

[fuse]

The apology D’Souza posted online was not short.
It was contrite, took ownership of his mistakes, and read as heartfelt.

Doesn’t excuse the behaviour, and yet he took more ownership than Bill Self did.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

The apology D’Souza posted online was not short.
It was contrite, took ownership of his mistakes, and read as heartfelt.

Doesn’t excuse the behaviour, and yet he took more ownership than Bill Self did.

Not to be too cynical, but I'm sure Kansas provided him with an army of lawyers and PR folks to help him out with that. Which still puts him well ahead of the many people who provide really lame excuses in similar situations.

[OldPhiKap]

King Rice coaches Monmouth, the Monmouth-KU game was the catalyst for the KU-KSU square dance. I'd say the death penalty for unc is fully warranted.

King Rice sucks.

[TKG]

King Rice sucks.

Wisdom in simplicity....

[cspan37421]

King Rice coaches Monmouth, the Monmouth-KU game was the catalyst for the KU-KSU square dance. I'd say the death penalty for unc is fully warranted.

By dribbling out the clock, the team with an insurmountable lead is inviting the soon-to-be defeated team to concede the result. The latter does not have to accept, even though further competitive play won't change the W-L result, and if anything, the margin of victory is more likely to increase rather than decrease (if it changes at all). By playing on, the risk of injury also remains. It seems to me that if the losing team wants to play hard to the end, the winning team should humor them, even if just in a game of keep-away.

On those occasions where the losing team pretends to concede but one of them suddenly has a change of heart and steals the ball, well, that may be a violation of honor in some sense, but it's not worth it to retaliate. Just do a "SMH", because by the situational definition, the W-L outcome is not affected. The margin of victory may change by 2 points, and while that may have some tiny negative effect in the computer rankings for the winning team, part of the blame for it is on the winning team's player who quit paying attention while dribbling out the clock. You can dribble out the clock while still keeping an eye on the supposedly-conceding defense.

Should the losing team always concede when the soon-to-be victors offer to step off the gas? My initial sense is, yes, of course. But then again - by definition there's SOME greatest comeback in final minute, final 30 seconds, etc. And records aren't done being broken. I'm not sure it can be anything but a judgment call. The point is, the losing team is not obligated to accept the offer, and if they want to keep fighting til the end, the winning team should gracefully accept their determination to keep trying - whatever their motivation for doing it (practice? good habits? sense of duty? pride?)

[Tooold]

The apology D’Souza posted online was not short.
It was contrite, took ownership of his mistakes, and read as heartfelt.

Doesn’t excuse the behaviour, and yet he took more ownership than Bill Self did.

What are the chances that he actually wrote that apology himself?

[weezie]

King Rice sucks.


Love it.

[Delmer]

What are the chances that he actually wrote that apology himself?

zero

[TruBlu]

What are the chances that he actually wrote that apology himself?

Well, at least he was able to read it correctly. He might not have been able to if he had gone to unc.

[wsb3]

King Rice sucks.

Thank you OPK for my morning chuckle.

[BD80]

King Rice sucks.

O'Koren is still ugly.

[summerwind03]

King Rice sucks.

He really really sucks!

[CameronBornAndBred]

What are the chances that he actually wrote that apology himself?


zero

I'm guessing the last line was his. Might have been all he had intended to write.
De Sousa ended his statement by writing, "I messed up and I am sorry."

[rsvman]

Well, at least he was able to read it correctly. He might not have been able to if he had gone to unc.

If he had gone to UNC, somebody would have been assigned to read it for him.

[uh_no]

If he had gone to UNC, somebody would have been assigned to read it for him.

they claim it's a service offered to all students.

[elvis14]

Wow those suspensions seem awfully light, especially Stompin' McCormack.

Notice how it's not the lead story on ESPN already? Remember when Grayson Allen's minor incidents were the lead story for days and were beaten to death. Remember when people were upset at the 1 game suspension (too long IMHO)? Compare that to Stompin' McCormack's 2 game suspension...

I know there are a lot of cynical fans that say the programs like Duke/KU/UK/UNCheat get away with anything they want...today I have to admit I see where they are coming from.

[jv001]

Wow those suspensions seem awfully light, especially Stompin' McCormack.

Notice how it's not the lead story on ESPN already? Remember when Grayson Allen's minor incidents were the lead story for days and were beaten to death. Remember when people were upset at the 1 game suspension (too long IMHO)? Compare that to Stompin' McCormack's 2 game suspension...

I know there are a lot of cynical fans that say the programs like Duke/KU/UK/UNCheat get away with anything they want...today I have to admit I see where they are coming from.

Please don't put Duke in a list with those cheats from cheatville.:cool: Like you mentioned, Duke got front page attention with Grayson's tripping and the KU-KSU melee was far worse imho.

GoDuke!

[killerleft]

Wow those suspensions seem awfully light, especially Stompin' McCormack.

Notice how it's not the lead story on ESPN already? Remember when Grayson Allen's minor incidents were the lead story for days and were beaten to death. Remember when people were upset at the 1 game suspension (too long IMHO)? Compare that to Stompin' McCormack's 2 game suspension...

I know there are a lot of cynical fans that say the programs like Duke/KU/UK/UNCheat get away with anything they want...today I have to admit I see where they are coming from.

ESPN is like a savvy school bully. Roll something out, and if it strikes a chord, worry it like a puppy with a sock.

[azzefkram]

Wow those suspensions seem awfully light, especially Stompin' McCormack.

Notice how it's not the lead story on ESPN already? Remember when Grayson Allen's minor incidents were the lead story for days and were beaten to death. Remember when people were upset at the 1 game suspension (too long IMHO)? Compare that to Stompin' McCormack's 2 game suspension...

I know there are a lot of cynical fans that say the programs like Duke/KU/UK/UNCheat get away with anything they want...today I have to admit I see where they are coming from.

Yeah, I figured de Sousa was gone for the rest of the season and McCormack's would be closer to what de Sousa received.

[CDu]

Yeah, I figured de Sousa was gone for the rest of the season and McCormack's would be closer to what de Sousa received.

I think part of the problem is that folks are overstating what McCormack did. If you watch closely, I don't think McCormack was actually stomping anyone. He was stepping over/around legs in order to try to get to Love again. He threw punches (hence the suspension), but I think the stomp claims were inaccurate.

As for De Sousa, it all comes down to how much you want to weigh the stool waiving. It sounds like he got 4-5 games for that and 7-8 for the rest. Basically, roughly the same as what Love got, plus the penalty for the stool, and perhaps minus the penalty for coming off the bench. And Love's suspension is longer than any other player has gotten for fighting in recent memory.

I think the only debate is really over how long De Sousa's suspension should have been.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Wow those suspensions seem awfully light, especially Stompin' McCormack.

Notice how it's not the lead story on ESPN already? Remember when Grayson Allen's minor incidents were the lead story for days and were beaten to death. Remember when people were upset at the 1 game suspension (too long IMHO)? Compare that to Stompin' McCormack's 2 game suspension...

I know there are a lot of cynical fans that say the programs like Duke/KU/UK/UNCheat get away with anything they want...today I have to admit I see where they are coming from.

And yet, some on DBR insists there is no anti Duke bias of any kind at ESPN.....go figure.....

[devildeac]

O'Koren is still ugly.

c*rolina ugly...

[Steven43]

And yet, some on DBR insists there is no anti Duke bias of any kind at ESPN...go figure...

Wow, I can’t fathom that anyone who is a Duke fan and posts on DBR would think ESPN does not have an anti-Duke bias. There have been hundreds of examples of it over the past two decades — the most flagrant being the shameful way they treated Grayson Allen.

Yes, they talk about Duke more than any other college basketball program and they constantly promote their games, players, and Coach K, but only because they know Duke sells. They’re trying to get viewers. I’m reasonably confident that the majority of their on-air personalities as well as writers —and even many execs — revel in Duke losses, particularly in the most important games.

[DukieInKansas]

c*rolina ugly...

He ain't got no alibi.

[devildeac]

He ain't got no alibi.

That's the cheer I remember...

:D

[CDu]

Our favorite Duke celebrity blowhard has weighed in on the issue:

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28544893/how-college-basketball-moves-kansas-kansas-state-brawl

Quick summary: Bilas says "yadda yadda yadda, I'm not moved one way or the other on the suspensions."

A lot more yaddas in there than that of course.

[uh_no]

Our favorite Duke celebrity blowhard has weighed in on the issue:

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28544893/how-college-basketball-moves-kansas-kansas-state-brawl

Quick summary: Bilas says "yadda yadda yadda, I'm not moved one way or the other on the suspensions."

A lot more yaddas in there than that of course.


For Kansas and Kansas State, the next step is to make sure the punished players are taken care of and get the help and support they need. De Sousa has been pilloried and will be followed by the menacing photos of him with the stool forever. That will not be easy to deal with. These are young men who made errors in judgment in a heated situation. They were wrong. But they should not be thrown out with yesterday's trash. De Sousa is a young man who made a mistake, not a punching bag for those upset with Kansas or the NCAA.

Hell of a different tone than he took with grayson.

[sagegrouse]

ESPN is like a savvy school bully. Roll something out, and if it strikes a chord, worry it like a puppy with a sock.

Grayson Allen could vanish off the face of the earth for ten years. When he re-appeared, ESPN would do a 30-minute retrospective on his tripping incidents -- "The Legend of Grayson Allen."

[sagegrouse]

Our favorite Duke celebrity blowhard has weighed in on the issue:

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/28544893/how-college-basketball-moves-kansas-kansas-state-brawl

Quick summary: Bilas says "yadda yadda yadda, I'm not moved one way or the other on the suspensions."

A lot more yaddas in there than that of course.

Two things of value:

(A) Bilas provided a detailed analysis of what actually happened. Perhaps it's elsewhere, but I hadn't gleaned it.

(B) Bilas suggests three remedies to prevent this situation -- the two boldface statements are worth considering:


First, when the clock is running out in a blowout, let the clock run out. Don't try for a steal. It is unnecessary. And, while the officials did a great job overall in dealing with the fight and did not make a mistake in this, I would consider calling a foul on the defender going for the steal. The offensive team was clearly trying to run out the clock. If you call the foul, you avoid a potential bad situation and discourage the same thing in the future. Reasonable minds can differ on this thought, but I think it would be a good way for an official to handle a situation. Remember, we saw the same thing in the Kansas-Monmouth game earlier this season.

Second, don't try to defend your basket after the steal when you were running out the clock. It is unnecessary. Did it lead to the fight? No, but if you let it go, there is no fight.

Third, stop the taunting. When you dunk on someone or block a shot, that's great. Celebrate it with your teammates. Just leave your opponent out of it. Taunting an opponent doesn't make the dunk or block more impressive. One thing you can guarantee, we will see taunting technical fouls more often going forward, and perhaps we should.

As to the "blah, blah, blah...," I thought he got paid by the year -- maybe he gets paid by the word. Seriously friends, the first three paras. are just a barrier to getting to the rest of the article.

[Acymetric]

Was there actually a foul when he went for the steal, or is Bilas just saying they should call a foul there regardless?

[sagegrouse]

Was there actually a foul when he went for the steal, or is Bilas just saying they should call a foul there regardless?

No foul. Bilas is suggesting that the refs step in and, as a preventive measure, stop the steal. Of course, then what? There is still time left on the clock but maybe the game would unwind in an orderly fashion.

No worries -- if Bilas suggests it, the NCAA would reflexively say no -- ever since he blew the whistle on the NCAA sale of Johnny Manziel jerseys.

[sagegrouse]

Grayson Allen could vanish off the face of the earth for ten years. When he re-appeared, ESPN would do a 30-minute retrospective on his tripping incidents -- "The Legend of Grayson Allen."

Moreover, if he had disappeared into the Amazon, the lead of the report would be that he had fled "to escape his horrible past."

[Phredd3]

Quick summary: Bilas says "yadda yadda yadda, I'm not moved one way or the other on the suspensions."

A lot more yaddas in there than that of course.

Among the yaddas, was this, "Could the result of the fight have been worse and people, including spectators, injured? Yes, that could have happened. But it didn't happen. The Big 12 had to sanction what happened, not what could have happened."

I think Bilas himself recognizes that this is simply untrue. Given that this was a serious altercation involving serious risk, it merited more than the one-game suspension which Bilas concedes is all that is required by the rules. Anyone even talking about the stool understands this. De Sousa didn't hurt anyone, yet Bilas seems to think a 12-game suspension is fine. The only possible explanation for that is that you understand this fight went further beyond the bounds of reasonable behavior than most. The sanction imposed clearly takes into account "what could have happened" in some way.

I'm not impressed with this "calm voice of reason" take, simply because the reasoning itself isn't very good.

[Tooold]

No foul. Bilas is suggesting that the refs step in and, as a preventive measure, stop the steal. Of course, then what? There is still time left on the clock but maybe the game would unwind in an orderly fashion.


The foul will be called “trying to steal the ball when time is running out” or “the Bilas Rule”.
Or it could be “unnecessary stealing”

[Phredd3]

No foul. Bilas is suggesting that the refs step in and, as a preventive measure, stop the steal.

It's a stupid take, and one that will never happen. How do you even codify that into a rule, let alone enforce it fairly? Players are just going to have to get used to the idea that as long as the time hasn't expired, there's a basketball game going on.

Of course, I wish some entire teams would apply that at the beginning of games, but that's a different topic.

[brlftz]

A foul is a judgment call, I think Bilas is just suggesting that the ref use his judgment to call a "foul" there. Not making up a new rule, just suggesting that the ref use his existing power to make an "oops bad call" to diffuse the situation.

[CDu]

Among the yaddas, was this, "Could the result of the fight have been worse and people, including spectators, injured? Yes, that could have happened. But it didn't happen. The Big 12 had to sanction what happened, not what could have happened."

I think Bilas himself recognizes that this is simply untrue. Given that this was a serious altercation involving serious risk, it merited more than the one-game suspension which Bilas concedes is all that is required by the rules. Anyone even talking about the stool understands this. De Sousa didn't hurt anyone, yet Bilas seems to think a 12-game suspension is fine. The only possible explanation for that is that you understand this fight went further beyond the bounds of reasonable behavior than most. The sanction imposed clearly takes into account "what could have happened" in some way.

I'm not impressed with this "calm voice of reason" take, simply because the reasoning itself isn't very good.

Agreed. If there wasn't some implicit punishment for the added risk of (a) fighting amongst paying customers and (b) brandishing a stool, then the 12-game suspension makes no sense. Previous fights haven't come close to that level of suspension. So, clearly the


It's a stupid take, and one that will never happen. How do you even codify that into a rule, let alone enforce it fairly? Players are just going to have to get used to the idea that as long as the time hasn't expired, there's a basketball game going on.

Of course, I wish some entire teams would apply that at the beginning of games, but that's a different topic.

I also agree here. The issue is, where is the line drawn? Clearly down 30 with under 10 seconds left is a "game over" situation. But what about "down 10 with under 30"? Things get really gray when you try to legislate when a game is "out of reach." The rules of what is and is not a foul shouldn't change based on time and score. Employing a "late game foul" rule is not a viable solution to me.

[CameronBornAndBred]

The first away game they play, the entire student section should hold up cardboard cutouts of stools. It's a shame that De Sousa won't be there, but he'd see them on TV.

[uh_no]

I also agree here. The issue is, where is the line drawn? Clearly down 30 with under 10 seconds left is a "game over" situation. But what about "down 10 with under 30"? Things get really gray when you try to legislate when a game is "out of reach." The rules of what is and is not a foul shouldn't change based on time and score. Employing a "late game foul" rule is not a viable solution to me.

If they wanted something like that, why not just say "the game is over" why make the offensive player go through the formality of dribbling.

[CDu]

If they wanted something like that, why not just say "the game is over" why make the offensive player go through the formality of dribbling.

Exactly. If there is time on the clock, the game should be called by the rules. And the rules should not change based on how much time is on the clock.

Full disclosure: I'm also not a fan of the clock stopping on made baskets in the final minute of regulation, nor am I a fan of officials swallowing the whistle late and supposedly "letting the players decide it", nor am I a fan of limiting official reviews to the last two minutes.

[uh_no]

Exactly. If there is time on the clock, the game should be called by the rules. And the rules should not change based on how much time is on the clock.

Full disclosure: I'm also not a fan of the clock stopping on made baskets in the final minute of regulation, nor am I a fan of officials swallowing the whistle late and supposedly "letting the players decide it", nor am I a fan of limiting official reviews to the last two minutes.

i generally agree. the issue with not stopping the clock is the leading team has incentive to "accidentally" knock the ball away after a made basket or catch the ball coming through the hoop and hold it for just a tiny bit longer before passing it to the official. Then you have a judgement call whether an act was an intentional delay of game, reviews of that, technical fouls...etc. Soccer has BS like that, and we don't need it.

[Acymetric]

i generally agree. the issue with not stopping the clock is the leading team has incentive to "accidentally" knock the ball away after a made basket or catch the ball coming through the hoop and hold it for just a tiny bit longer before passing it to the official. Then you have a judgement call whether an act was an intentional delay of game, reviews of that, technical fouls...etc. Soccer has BS like that, and we don't need it.

I would rather change the rule to stop the clock after every made basket than to keep it running after made baskets under 1 minute (if we're changing it, I would prefer to just keep it as-is since it seems to work fine). It is kind of strange that it doesn't stop, actually, given that the clock stops for basically everything else.

[CDu]

i generally agree. the issue with not stopping the clock is the leading team has incentive to "accidentally" knock the ball away after a made basket or catch the ball coming through the hoop and hold it for just a tiny bit longer before passing it to the official. Then you have a judgement call whether an act was an intentional delay of game, reviews of that, technical fouls...etc. Soccer has BS like that, and we don't need it.

Easy to fix. If the ball gets held/kicked/batted such that the other team can’t get it, blow the whistle to stop the clock. The same as happens during normal play pretty regularly.


I would rather change the rule to stop the clock after every made basket than to keep it running after made baskets under 1 minute (if we're changing it, I would prefer to just keep it as-is since it seems to work fine). It is kind of strange that it doesn't stop, actually, given that the clock stops for basically everything else.

I would be fine with this too. As long as it is consistent throughout.

[azzefkram]

I think part of the problem is that folks are overstating what McCormack did. If you watch closely, I don't think McCormack was actually stomping anyone. He was stepping over/around legs in order to try to get to Love again. He threw punches (hence the suspension), but I think the stomp claims were inaccurate.

As for De Sousa, it all comes down to how much you want to weigh the stool waiving. It sounds like he got 4-5 games for that and 7-8 for the rest. Basically, roughly the same as what Love got, plus the penalty for the stool, and perhaps minus the penalty for coming off the bench. And Love's suspension is longer than any other player has gotten for fighting in recent memory.

I think the only debate is really over how long De Sousa's suspension should have been.

I thought it looked like stomping but if there was no stomping going on then 2 games seems about right. If De Sousa put the stool down on his own, I could get on board with with 12 games. He had to have it taken from him. He got off light.

[Acymetric]

Easy to fix. If the ball gets held/kicked/batted such that the other team can’t get it, blow the whistle to stop the clock. The same as happens during normal play pretty regularly.

I can already hear the endless debates about how the ref should/should not have stopped the clock because whatever the leading team did with the ball was/was not a "delay".

[CDu]

I can already hear the endless debates about how the ref should/should not have stopped the clock because whatever the leading team did with the ball was/was not a "delay".

Further disclosure: I think the officials are too lax letting the scoring team handle the ball after a made basket. If a player from the scoring team grabs the ball and does ANYTHING but let it go under the basket (and that includes throwing the ball to the official AND includes throwing it to a player on the other team) it should be a delay of game warning/violation. If the ball gets accidentally knocked away, that should be an incidental delay (official’s stoppage). Call it consistently throughout and it isn’t hard.

But like I said, I would also be totally fine if the clock stopped every time a score happens.

[Steven43]

I thought it looked like stomping but if there was no stomping going on then 2 games seems about right. If De Sousa put the stool down on his own, I could get on board with with 12 games. He had to have it taken from him. He got off light.
100% correct — the chair was taken from him. You can see on the following video that he looks back to see who pulled the chair out of his hands. I would not have wanted to be in his sightlines and in close proximity had that chair not been taken from him.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thespun.com/big-12/kansas-jayhawks/new-video-angle-emerges-from-kansas-kansas-state-brawl/amp

[Edouble]

What are the chances that he actually wrote that apology himself?

About the same chances as a unc basketball player writing a paper himself.

[rsvman]

Among the yaddas, was this, "Could the result of the fight have been worse and people, including spectators, injured? Yes, that could have happened. But it didn't happen. The Big 12 had to sanction what happened, not what could have happened."

.........

This is especially disappointing coming from someone who graduated law school.

I'm not a lawyer, but I watch a lot of law shows on tv, and I think that cases are fairly frequently based on "what could have happened" and not solely on what actually happened. Again, not a lawyer, but let's think about a classic Law and Order case, in which a guy takes a firearm that he believes to be loaded, points it at somebody, and pulls the trigger. Because the gun was not actually loaded, nobody died. But they charged him with attempted murder based on the fact that the guy thought the gun was loaded, and therefore was trying to kill somebody.

The flip side of that discussion is interesting, too. What if a guy picks up a gun that believes to be unloaded, points it at somebody, pulls the trigger, and the guy dies? Well, that ends up being manslaughter, because the guy thought the gun was unloaded.

So, the first guy, who harms nobody, gets a higher charge ("attempted murder") than the second guy, who actually kills somebody ("manslaughter").



Ummmm........oh yeah, I think I've proved my point. :cool:

[jv001]

This is especially disappointing coming from someone who graduated law school.

I'm not a lawyer, but I watch a lot of law shows on tv, and I think that cases are fairly frequently based on "what could have happened" and not solely on what actually happened. Again, not a lawyer, but let's think about a classic Law and Order case, in which a guy takes a firearm that he believes to be loaded, points it at somebody, and pulls the trigger. Because the gun was not actually loaded, nobody died. But they charged him with attempted murder based on the fact that the guy thought the gun was loaded, and therefore was trying to kill somebody.

The flip side of that discussion is interesting, too. What if a guy picks up a gun that believes to be unloaded, points it at somebody, pulls the trigger, and the guy dies? Well, that ends up being manslaughter, because the guy thought the gun was unloaded.

So, the first guy, who harms nobody, gets a higher charge ("attempted murder") than the second guy, who actually kills somebody ("manslaughter").



Ummmm....oh yeah, I think I've proved my point. :cool:

I liked those old Law and Order TV shows more than I do the Law and Order SVU ones. Another case of me being old school. As for the KU..KSU fight, I told one of my Duke friends at church, "the punishments from the game came down" and he asked me what they were and I said they put the Cheats on probation for two years. I thought he was going to die laughing.

GoDuke!

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Cleveland State will lose its leading scorer for the rest of the season.

LOL, sporks! Well played.....

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Further disclosure: I think the officials are too lax letting the scoring team handle the ball after a made basket. If a player from the scoring team grabs the ball and does ANYTHING but let it go under the basket (and that includes throwing the ball to the official AND includes throwing it to a player on the other team) it should be a delay of game warning/violation. If the ball gets accidentally knocked away, that should be an incidental delay (official’s stoppage). Call it consistently throughout and it isn’t hard.

But like I said, I would also be totally fine if the clock stopped every time a score happens.

Not relevant to anything, but I seem to recall Laettner being spoken to constantly for touching the ball after it went through the hoop.

[CDu]

Not relevant to anything, but I seem to recall Laettner being spoken to constantly for touching the ball after it went through the hoop.

Yeah, it probably used to be enforced. But sort of like other rules over time (like traveling, palming, contact, etc) , officials have let it slide more and more over time. I still remember the time Pauli’s drew a tech on a FSU (I think) player by wrestling for the ball after a made Duke basket. And Chris Paul taking a made Wake shot out of the net, twirling the ball around his waist twice and then throwing the ball to the ref. Neither got a delay of game warning. Ridiculous.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Yeah, it probably used to be enforced. But sort of like other rules over time (like traveling, palming, contact, etc) , officials have let it slide more and more over time. I still remember the time Pauli’s drew a tech on a FSU (I think) player by wrestling for the ball after a made Duke basket. And Chris Paul taking a made Wake shot out of the net, twirling the ball around his waist twice and then throwing the ball to the ref. Neither got a delay of game warning. Ridiculous.

I have no doubt Laettner was doing it for some perceived competitive advantage. God bless him.

[JayZee]

I have no doubt Laettner was doing it for some perceived competitive advantage. God bless him.

Just giving his esteemed opponent a little extra time to pontificate getting schooled by a 7ft version of Luke from 90210.

[Duke79UNLV77]

Not relevant to anything, but I seem to recall Laettner being spoken to constantly for touching the ball after it went through the hoop.

Laettner often did it once a game, knowing he’d get a warning.