Lakers

[moonpie23]

as a professed laker hater, and lebron fan, i am as conflicted as this cat.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8yW5cyXXRc



. that said, i'm EXTREMELY happy to see quinn on the team (cause i hated the dubs) and even more, i am loving this dwight howard resurgence... he looks happier than than he has in years !!

[weezie]

Did you notice how, late in 4th, Quinn (during the time out) and focused on what the ref was saying and lingered a moment nodding his head? It reminded me of Captain Quinn at Duke.

Wow, it's been such a pleasure watching his career.

[Steven43]

as a professed laker hater, and lebron fan, i am as conflicted as this cat.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8yW5cyXXRc



. that said, i'm EXTREMELY happy to see quinn on the team (cause i hated the dubs) and even more, i am loving this dwight howard resurgence... he looks happier than than he has in years !!

Wait......you just said you are a “professed Laker hater” and yet you’re happy Quinn Cook is on a team that you hate? And you’re loving Dwight Howard playing well, for the first time in years, for a team that you hate?

I also despise the Lakers (more than any other team, with the Rockets being a close second). But unlike you, I am not a Lebron James fan. I don’t like how he has manipulated coaching and personnel decisions on his various teams through the years. Pat Riley is the only one who has stood up to him, which is why he left Miami and went back to Cleveland, all while disingenuously patting himself on the back and misrepresenting his true motivations. I’m also not a fan of the way he constantly seeks attention with his various stances on social issues, many of which he has barely surface knowledge — yet speaks as if he is a well-respected long-time researcher on the subject.

As for Dwight Howard, he has largely been considered a team cancer on the Lakers (the first time), Rockets, Hawks, Hornets, and Wizards. While I don’t have anything against the guy at all, it’s kind of galling that he finally seems to have gotten his psychological and physical issues on the upswing, at least temporarily, while as a member of the dreaded Lakers. Geez, dude, if you were finally going to get it together couldn’t you have gone to, say, the Utah Jazz, Dallas Mavericks, or Los Angeles Clippers, all of whom are potential threats to the Lakers in the West?

As for Quinn Cook, well, I like him a lot and have followed his career closely. However, I find it difficult to root strongly for him now that he is a member of the enemy. It’s kind of how I felt about JJ Redick when he was a member of the 76ers and was helping beat my Celtics. I’m much happier now that he is a member of New Orleans.

[Edouble]

As for Quinn Cook, well, I like him a lot and have followed his career closely. However, I find it difficult to root strongly for him now that he is a member of the enemy. It’s kind of how I felt about JJ Redick when he was a member of the 76ers and was helping beat my Celtics. I’m much happier now that he is a member of New Orleans.

Quinn has the biggest heart of any Duke player, ever, and any team with Quinn can not, by definition, be the enemy. :o

<3 <3 <3

[MartyClark]

Quinn has the biggest heart of any Duke player, ever, and any team with Quinn can not, by definition, be the enemy. :o

<3 <3 <3

Yeah, agree. I root for the Lakers just because of Quinn. I know he's a small cog in the big Laker machine but I want to see him get minutes, score points and become another Duke player who has been on an NBA champion.

I'd root for the Pelicans if they had a chance to win a championship. They are not a good team. I don't see them doing anything even if a healthy Zion returns.

[Edouble]

Yeah, agree. I root for the Lakers just because of Quinn. I know he's a small cog in the big Laker machine but I want to see him get minutes, score points and become another Duke player who has been on an NBA champion.

I'd root for the Pelicans if they had a chance to win a championship. They are not a good team. I don't see them doing anything even if a healthy Zion returns.

Would be cool for him to join a (somewhat) select group of players who were both NCAA and NBA Champions.

[cato]

Yeah, agree. I root for the Lakers just because of Quinn. I know he's a small cog in the big Laker machine but I want to see him get minutes, score points and become another Duke player who has been on an NBA champion.

I'd root for the Pelicans if they had a chance to win a championship. They are not a good team. I don't see them doing anything even if a healthy Zion returns.

I am hoping that Quinn can get this second ring with the Lakers. He already got one with the Warriors, putting him in pretty nice company having won championships in both college and the NBA.

[Duke79UNLV77]

The Warriors were great the last 2 years with Cook and now are terrible. The Lakers were a mess last year without Cook and now are storming the league. #causeandeffect

[Steven43]

The Warriors were great the last 2 years with Cook and now are terrible. The Lakers were a mess last year without Cook and now are storming the league. #causeandeffect

Now that you mention it that makes perfect sense. Quinn Cook is the key 🔑. Now we just have to hope the Lakers trade him before the playoffs start. 😉

[Edouble]

Would be cool for him to join a (somewhat) select group of players who were both NCAA and NBA Champions.

Wait he already is, never mind.

[sagegrouse]

Would be cool for him to join a (somewhat) select group of players who were both NCAA and NBA Champions.

Lessee... the Duke list includes Quinn and Shane.

[Edouble]

Lessee... the Duke list includes Quinn and Shane.

Yeah, there's kind of a lot. Recent ones include Mario Chalmers, Antoine Walker, Danny Green (sorry), Mo Speights, Corey Brewer, Jason Terry, and of course, Quinn and Shane.

[chris13]

Wait...you just said you are a “professed Laker hater” and yet you’re happy Quinn Cook is on a team that you hate? And you’re loving Dwight Howard playing well, for the first time in years, for a team that you hate?

I also despise the Lakers (more than any other team, with the Rockets being a close second). But unlike you, I am not a Lebron James fan. I don’t like how he has manipulated coaching and personnel decisions on his various teams through the years. Pat Riley is the only one who has stood up to him, which is why he left Miami and went back to Cleveland, all while disingenuously patting himself on the back and misrepresenting his true motivations. I’m also not a fan of the way he constantly seeks attention with his various stances on social issues, many of which he has barely surface knowledge — yet speaks as if he is a well-respected long-time researcher on the subject.



Who did LeBron manipulate? He leveraged his status is the best player in the NBA to get the playing situation that he wanted. Back in the day Magic Johnson got a coach fired. He could do that because NBA superstars are more valuable than NBA coaches when it comes to winning.

[Steven43]

Who did LeBron manipulate? He leveraged his status is the best player in the NBA to get the playing situation that he wanted. Back in the day Magic Johnson got a coach fired. He could do that because NBA superstars are more valuable than NBA coaches when it comes to winning.
If you have been paying attention you would know the way James, throughout the majority of his career, has manipulated situation after situation to get coaches fired and hired as well as to force the hand of his various GMs as to which players to get rid of and which to obtain. This is common knowledge in the basketball world.

I don’t like when players use their leverage and influence to try and force the hand of owners, coaches, and GMs. Yes, Magic did it one time (with Paul Westhead). But that’s it as far as I know. Lebron does it constantly as if it were his right to do so. If James wants to be the coach or GM then he should apply for the job and be held appropriately accountable. If he’s not willing to do that then he should just try to be the best team player he can be and allow others to do their job without fear of being stabbed in the back by him.

[chris13]

If you have been paying attention you would know the way James, throughout the majority of his career, has manipulated situation after situation to get coaches fired and hired as well as to force the hand of his various GMs as to which players to get rid of and which to obtain. This is common knowledge in the basketball world.

I don’t like when players use their leverage and influence to try and force the hand of owners, coaches, and GMs. Yes, Magic did it one time (with Paul Westhead). But that’s it as far as I know. Lebron does it constantly as if it were his right to do so. If James wants to be the coach or GM then he should apply for the job and be held appropriately accountable. If he’s not willing to do that then he should just try to be the best team player he can be and allow others to do their job without fear of being stabbed in the back by him.

1) For the first paragraph, I will google for examples but I would note that you haven't actually provided any specifics, other than something about Pat Riley standing up to LeBron in the first post. I would say that has worked out better for LeBron than Riley, FWIW.

2) Maybe part of being the best team player is trying to make sure that the guys on the team are the best ones. I don't love LeBron, but a superstar NBA player is more valuable than a GM or a coach in most cases. If you are the owner and the superstar is unhappy with the coach or GM, why wouldn't you at least think long and hard about replacing them. If you are the most valuable person in the organization usually you can throw your weight around, even if you might not technically be at the top of the org chart. It is actually his right to try and get the playing situation he wants.

[bundabergdevil]

1) For the first paragraph, I will google for examples but I would note that you haven't actually provided any specifics, other than something about Pat Riley standing up to LeBron in the first post. I would say that has worked out better for LeBron than Riley, FWIW.

2) Maybe part of being the best team player is trying to make sure that the guys on the team are the best ones. I don't love LeBron, but a superstar NBA player is more valuable than a GM or a coach in most cases. If you are the owner and the superstar is unhappy with the coach or GM, why wouldn't you at least think long and hard about replacing them. If you are the most valuable person in the organization usually you can throw your weight around, even if you might not technically be at the top of the org chart. It is actually his right to try and get the playing situation he wants.

I'm with you but for different reasons. I LOVE when players "manipulate" situations to maximize their advantage, whatever that may be. When you're in a highly capitalistic, pay-for-performance system where everyone is jockeying for pay and influence, you're damn right you don't adopt some keep-your-head-down mentality. You play the game on top of the game, just like the rest. James' net worth is not far from some of cheapest NBA franchises and he helped add $500M in value to the Cavs the second go around. Plenty of folks may not like him, and that's fine, but there's no reason he shouldn't go after exactly what he wants.

[Troublemaker]

If you have been paying attention you would know the way James, throughout the majority of his career, has manipulated situation after situation to get coaches fired and hired as well as to force the hand of his various GMs as to which players to get rid of and which to obtain. This is common knowledge in the basketball world.

I don’t like when players use their leverage and influence to try and force the hand of owners, coaches, and GMs. Yes, Magic did it one time (with Paul Westhead). But that’s it as far as I know. Lebron does it constantly as if it were his right to do so. If James wants to be the coach or GM then he should apply for the job and be held appropriately accountable. If he’s not willing to do that then he should just try to be the best team player he can be and allow others to do their job without fear of being stabbed in the back by him.

While I largely agree with you, you know should know that it *is* absolutely Lebron's right to make demands. Therefore, some of your criticism should be directed at the coaches, GMS, and owners who kowtow to Lebron and his demands. The ideal for you should be a management team that decides they won't put up with Lebron and the baggage that comes with him and therefore doesn't sign him in free agency; they then proceed to build a championship team using other players and methods. This is a better solution than wanting Lebron to restrict his free speech ("free speech" used in the non-1A, general sense here).

[moonpie23]

in the entertainment industry (nba) the TALENT has more power.....and rightfully so, the others are just selling the talent...

[camion]

While I largely agree with you, you know should know that it *is* absolutely Lebron's right to make demands. Therefore, some of your criticism should be directed at the coaches, GMS, and owners who kowtow to Lebron and his demands. The ideal for you should be a management team that decides they won't put up with Lebron and the baggage that comes with him and therefore doesn't sign him in free agency; they then proceed to build a championship team using other players and methods. This is a better solution than wanting Lebron to restrict his free speech ("free speech" used in the non-1A, general sense here).

My view is that if you have leverage you may use it. If I may not like how it is used that doesn't make it unethical or illegal. It's just business.

That being said, I have the option of not liking how some might choose to to use their "powers." I am free to cheer against them as I often do.

[LasVegas]

I don’t like when players use their leverage and influence to try and force the hand of owners, coaches, and GMs. Yes, Magic did it one time (with Paul Westhead). But that’s it as far as I know. Lebron does it constantly as if it were his right to do so. If James wants to be the coach or GM then he should apply for the job and be held appropriately accountable. If he’s not willing to do that then he should just try to be the best team player he can be and allow others to do their job without fear of being stabbed in the back by him.

This is a joke right? Kyrie with the cavs and Davis with the pelicans are both very recent examples of players forcing the hand of GMs.

[Steven43]

This is a joke right? Kyrie with the cavs and Davis with the pelicans are both very recent examples of players forcing the hand of GMs.

A joke??? No, anything but. What I said about James still stands. And your adding Irving and Davis to the list of petulant, manipulative, me-first players doesn’t change that. And now that you mention it, I dislike the manner in which all three of them went about doing what they did.

[SouthernDukie]

This being a Duke board, I'll just never, ever understand all the crap that people hand out to one of our own - Kyrie. He's had derogatory labels hung on him ever since he's been in the League. Everything from Bum Slayer to Selfish Player (no rhyme intended). And I get many of us have our favorite NBA teams that go way back with us. Full disclosure here: I was a Celtics fan before Larry Legend arrived, so I have some skin in this. But I never put Kyrie down. And I don't get others who do. We should be better than this.

Go Duke!

Go Dukies in the NBA!!

Go all Dukies everywhere at any stage of life period!!!

[Steven43]

This being a Duke board, I'll just never, ever understand all the crap that people hand out to one of our own - Kyrie. He's had derogatory labels hung on him ever since he's been in the League. Everything from Bum Slayer to Selfish Player (no rhyme intended). And I get many of us have our favorite NBA teams that go way back with us. Full disclosure here: I was a Celtics fan before Larry Legend arrived, so I have some skin in this. But I never put Kyrie down. And I don't get others who do. We should be better than this.

Go Duke!

Go Dukies in the NBA!!

Go all Dukies everywhere at any stage of life period!!!
I don’t really understand why you would bring all former Duke players into this conversation. I specifically mentioned Kyrie Irving only. And as far as that goes, if a former Duke player does something that I don’t like I will sometimes call him out. If they do something good, I will often mention that as well. I think that’s the way it should be. Everybody has to be held accountable for their actions, whether they went to Duke or not.

[NSDukeFan]

I don’t really understand why you would bring all former Duke players into this conversation. I specifically mentioned Kyrie Irving only. And as far as that goes, if a former Duke player does something that I don’t like I will sometimes call him out. If they do something good, I will often mention that as well. I think that’s the way it should be. Everybody has to be held accountable for their actions, whether they went to Duke or not.

I believe there is a basketball program near Duke that has proven this to be incorrect.

[cato]

I love that players have more control over their career these days. I much prefer Lebron charting his own path to useless owners like Dan Gilbert getting to exploit his immense talents without say from the player. I do not understand why people prefer that team owners — who did not earn anything in the realm of sports — prefer to have exclusive control, other than simply wanting old-fashioned power structures to continue.

I am also all-in on the Lakers and Quinn Cook.

[Steven43]

I believe there is a basketball program near Duke that has proven this to be incorrect.

A very good point indeed.

[Steven43]

I love that players have more control over their career these days. I much prefer Lebron charting his own path to useless owners like Dan Gilbert getting to exploit his immense talents without say from the player. I do not understand why people prefer that team owners — who did not earn anything in the realm of sports — prefer to have exclusive control, other than simply wanting old-fashioned power structures to continue.

I’ll bet if you were the owner of a sports team you wouldn’t feel that way. Besides, you are only mentioning owners while leaving out the main part — which is about coaches, GMs, and players being able to simply go about their job to the best of their ability without being manipulated behind the scenes by a rogue player.

[SouthernDukie]

I don’t really understand why you would bring all former Duke players into this conversation. I specifically mentioned Kyrie Irving only.

I didn't bring in all former players, other than my sign-off which was intended to say I hope and cheer for ALL Dukies to be successful - including Kyrie Irving.

The point I'm making is that Kyrie, out of all Dukies that have ever gone to the NBA, gets treated with more disdain than any of the others here. And I'm voicing my opinion that it's over the top for a Duke board. That's all.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I’ll bet if you were the owner of a sports team you wouldn’t feel that way. Besides, you are only mentioning owners while leaving out the main part — which is about coaches, GMs, and players being able to simply go about their job to the best of their ability without being manipulated behind the scenes by a rogue player.

... conversely, if you were an NBA player, you might feel differently.

Players today make more money and have more power than ever

Excellent.

Why on earth should GMs, owners, "the league," etc have more power or money than the talent playing on the court? Because they "play a game?"

Besides, of you're an owner and you don't want the players to have power, there is a simple fix. Just stop paying so much money. Let me know how that works out.

[ojaidave]

I’ll bet if you were the owner of a sports team you wouldn’t feel that way. Besides, you are only mentioning owners while leaving out the main part — which is about coaches, GMs, and players being able to simply go about their job to the best of their ability without being manipulated behind the scenes by a rogue player.
I'm sure you realize this, but that "rogue" is a top 5 player in NBA history by most measures. His success on the court and impact on the game are hard to question. Also, by most accounts (including Coach K), LeBron has a very sharp basketball mind. There is a reason he gets what he wants.

I would be more sympathetic to your critisims if the league (and coaches, and GM's) were more loyal to their players, but the fact is that this is an entertainment buisness. All but a handfull of players are potential trade bait for the next big thing, so you can't blame the players at the top of the food chain for watching out for their own best interests.

Full disclosure, I was a huge Laker fan until the Shaq/Kobe era. Once Kobe left, I could, and do, root for them again.

[Steven43]

Why on earth should GMs, owners, "the league," etc have more power or money than the talent playing on the court? Because they "play a game?"

Besides, of you're an owner and you don't want the players to have power, there is a simple fix. Just stop paying so much money. Let me know how that works out.

I didn’t say GMs, owners, etc, should necessarily have more money and power than the talent on the court. I said owners, GMs, coaches, and players (other than the ones who are doing the manipulating) should be able to do their jobs as owners, GMs, coaches, and players without rogue players like James trying to engineer things and force their will on everybody else simply for their own selfish interests.

As to your comment about the owners paying less money, there will come a time when fans will lose some interest in watching a sport that is largely controlled and manipulated by selfish players caring only about their self-interest and not necessarily caring about the betterment of the team. And once that happens revenue will go down and player salaries will go down along with it.

So, yeah, when that happens — and it will — I’ll let you know how it worked out.

[bundabergdevil]

I didn’t say GMs, owners, etc, should necessarily have more money and power than the talent on the court. I said owners, GMs, coaches, and players (other than the ones who are doing the manipulating) should be able to do their jobs as owners, GMs, coaches, and players without rogue players like James trying to engineer things and force their will on everybody else simply for their own selfish interests.

As to your comment about the owners paying less money, there will come a time when fans will lose some interest in watching a sport that is largely controlled and manipulated by selfish players caring only about their self-interest and not necessarily caring about the betterment of the team. And once that happens revenue will go down and player salaries will go down along with it.

So, yeah, when that happens — and it will — I’ll let you know how it worked out.

LeBron's self-interest generated 3 championships (2 Heat, 1 Cavs) and $500M in additional valuation for Dan Gilbert's Cavs. If the NBA were a true capital market, LBJ, Steph, and others would be paid MUCH more than they are now in salaries. They are not selfish enough, IMO. Some analysts estimate NBA revenues will eclipse (by a substantial margin) NFL revenues in the next ten years. Why might that be? If you've noticed, both the NFL and NBA have been attempting to export their product globally but one has been more successful* than the other. That's on the back of two things: basketball is a global game and is driven by global stars (nobody cares about Patrick Mahomes in Europe or China or Africa) and NBA merchandise is just much cooler.

*Daryl Morey tweets aside.

[chris13]

I didn’t say GMs, owners, etc, should necessarily have more money and power than the talent on the court. I said owners, GMs, coaches, and players (other than the ones who are doing the manipulating) should be able to do their jobs as owners, GMs, coaches, and players without rogue players like James trying to engineer things and force their will on everybody else simply for their own selfish interests.

As to your comment about the owners paying less money, there will come a time when fans will lose some interest in watching a sport that is largely controlled and manipulated by selfish players caring only about their self-interest and not necessarily caring about the betterment of the team. And once that happens revenue will go down and player salaries will go down along with it.

So, yeah, when that happens — and it will — I’ll let you know how it worked out.

You have never actually provided examples of LeBron's going rogue. When I googled I got a list of coaches that had gotten fired but 1) it's not clear that was LeBron's doing and 2) It's not like any of those guys turned into Pop or Phil Jackson in subsequent jobs. I get you...you are a Celtic fan, you hate LeBron. I would argue whatever he's doing he's trying to maximize his earnings and find the best employment situation. That makes him like most people, except he has more leverage because he is in the top 5 in the world at what he does. As Coach K has said, LeBron is a basketball genius*, and like a lot of geniuses my guess is he relentlessly wants to optimize his work situation.

According https://www.statista.com/statistics/193467/total-league-revenue-of-the-nba-since-2005/, NBA Revenue has gone from about $3 billion in 2004 (LeBron's first season) to $8 billion in 2018. While that's not all LeBron, these "rogue" players must be doing something right.

*
"He's brilliant, really," says Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski, who coached James during the 2008 and 2012 Olympics--both gold-medal years for the U.S. men's basketball team. "In a meeting I can go through, say, five sets that Spain runs on a chalkboard or on tape. When we go to the court and start walking through trying to learn it in real time, he already knows them. And not only does he know them, he had already thought about his reactionary moves to their movement." Source: (http://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,2145038,00.html)

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

As to your comment about the owners paying less money, there will come a time when fans will lose some interest in watching a sport that is largely controlled and manipulated by selfish players caring only about their self-interest and not necessarily caring about the betterment of the team. And once that happens revenue will go down and player salaries will go down along with it.

So, yeah, when that happens — and it will — I’ll let you know how it worked out.

Please do. In the meantime, I'll wait for an owner to take a principled stance.

[dudog84]

As to your comment about the owners paying less money, there will come a time when fans will lose some interest in watching a sport that is largely controlled and manipulated by selfish players caring only about their self-interest and not necessarily caring about the betterment of the team. And once that happens revenue will go down and player salaries will go down along with it.

I think this determination is wrong. Interest in baseball keeps going down, salaries keep going up.

Don't ask me why.

[cato]

I'm sure you realize this, but that "rogue" is a top 5 player in NBA history by most measures. His success on the court and impact on the game are hard to question. Also, by most accounts (including Coach K), LeBron has a very sharp basketball mind. There is a reason he gets what he wants.

I would be more sympathetic to your critisims if the league (and coaches, and GM's) were more loyal to their players, but the fact is that this is an entertainment buisness. All but a handfull of players are potential trade bait for the next big thing, so you can't blame the players at the top of the food chain for watching out for their own best interests.

Full disclosure, I was a huge Laker fan until the Shaq/Kobe era. Once Kobe left, I could, and do, root for them again.

Yeah, I don’t really get how some people view the power dynamic in sports, the NBA in particular. The best players in the league are much more valuable than a coach. A GM is important because the GM needs to put a team together, but is any GM more valuable than a KD or a LeBron? Probably not.

I view the path of the NBA as bending slowing toward equity, with the relative value of players and management being more appropriately balanced.

Others seem to just prefer the old hierarchy.

[Spanarkel]

LeBron's self-interest generated 3 championships (2 Heat, 1 Cavs) and $500M in additional valuation for Dan Gilbert's Cavs. If the NBA were a true capital market, LBJ, Steph, and others would be paid MUCH more than they are now in salaries. They are not selfish enough, IMO. Some analysts estimate NBA revenues will eclipse (by a substantial margin) NFL revenues in the next ten years. Why might that be? If you've noticed, both the NFL and NBA have been attempting to export their product globally but one has been more successful* than the other. That's on the back of two things: basketball is a global game and is driven by global stars (nobody cares about Patrick Mahomes in Europe or China or Africa) and NBA merchandise is just much cooler.

*Daryl Morey tweets aside.

Do you have any recent statistics on NBA vs. NFL(and other pro sports) merchandise sales and trends? I did search for a good while before posting but failed to find much data, only that the global licensed sports merchandise market is ~$20B/year//the US accounts for 1/2-2/3 of all global sales//NFL and MLB merchandise sales account for ~50% of market in US. I did not find any direct comparisons between the major sports leagues in worldwide sales.
Even though 300M or so Chinese play basketball(according to Wikipedia), the vast majority are not purchasing NBA jerseys or other significant NBA gear(personal observation of nephew residing in Shanghai and Hong Kong for the past 10 years). I still suspect a dominance for football(specifically pro)football jersey sales in the overall market. Thanks!

[bundabergdevil]

Do you have any recent statistics on NBA vs. NFL(and other pro sports) merchandise sales and trends? I did search for a good while before posting but failed to find much data, only that the global licensed sports merchandise market is ~$20B/year//the US accounts for 1/2-2/3 of all global sales//NFL and MLB merchandise sales account for ~50% of market in US. I did not find any direct comparisons between the major sports leagues in worldwide sales.
Even though 300M or so Chinese play basketball(according to Wikipedia), the vast majority are not purchasing NBA jerseys or other significant NBA gear(personal observation of nephew residing in Shanghai and Hong Kong for the past 10 years). I still suspect a dominance for football(specifically pro)football jersey sales in the overall market. Thanks!

The best source of NBA revenue, valuation, and profitability information that I am aware of is Forbes' annual report out (https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2019/02/06/nba-team-values-2019-knicks-on-top-at-4-billion/#2219d44ce667). The NBA is private so we don't get access to any 10-K type data but, according to Forbes, the NBA has been growing at a much healthier clip than NFL revenue, partly on the back of foreign markets and the NBA's ongoing tie to popular culture (this shouldn't come as a surprise).

For sizing of China's sports apparel market, I have to imagine there analyst reports out there and from what I understand there are a number of domestic sportswear companies that partnered with, for example, our own Shane Battier. The major global players like Nike are still reporting out Chinese revenue growth that exceeds their North American growth. (https://www.wsj.com/articles/strong-sales-in-china-lift-nike-results-11569357896)

I also know that the most popular - measured in various ways - athletes on the planet are all soccer, basketball, and tennis players, and also Tiger Woods.

So, all that is to say, if certain conditions remain and the NBA's growth rates stay what they are relative to the NFL, it should surpass the NFL in annual revenue within a decade.

Not sure that got you what you were after but it's what I got!

[Steven43]

Please do. In the meantime, I'll wait for an owner to take a principled stance.

I don’t understand why many on this board seem to feel so negatively towards business owners. Do none of y’all own a business? I do, and I think the employees who work for my company are treated quite well and seem happy to be working there. That’s the direct feedback I get, anyway. Who knows for sure, though?

No business is going to be considered fair and just by everybody. It’s just not possible. And there will always be people knocking the business owner regardless of what they do. That’s just the nature of the business owner-employee relationship. I guess it all just comes down to one’s perspective.

[cato]

Do none of y’all own a business?


Is this a qualifying question to have an opinion? If the answer is “yes,” does one’s opinion have more weight?

[Steven43]

Is this a qualifying question to have an opinion? If the answer is “yes,” does one’s opinion have more weight?

If the answer is “yes” perhaps that person’s opinion does have more weight when it comes to the question of business ownership. I would think it’s nearly impossible to have an in-depth understanding of business ownership if one has never owned and operated a business. Seems fairly logical to me.

As to your question of people having opinions, well, everybody certainly has the right to have an opinion. Whether or not each specific opinion is particularly well-informed on the subject in question is perhaps another matter altogether.

[Steven43]

That being said, I don’t know the first thing about owning a professional sports franchise in a major sports league in the United States. I have no more clue than anyone else — and maybe less than some — on this board about what that entails. I certainly would not want anyone to think that I am claiming some kind of supreme knowledge about any of this. Far from it.

[cato]

Taking a different line, which I bet plays true across fields: if there is a LeBron James out there, you better get him on your team or get a team that has an answer. The short list of answers has been KD, Khawi, Splash Brothers, all playing on exceptional teams.

Speaking of the Lakers, I read a piece talking about the Lakers’ “thrust” and loved the term. How many teams have been able to pair a LeBron with an AD coming fast and heavy at you?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I don’t understand why many on this board seem to feel so negatively towards business owners. Do none of y’all own a business? I do, and I think the employees who work for my company are treated quite well and seem happy to be working there. That’s the direct feedback I get, anyway. Who knows for sure, though?

No business is going to be considered fair and just by everybody. It’s just not possible. And there will always be people knocking the business owner regardless of what they do. That’s just the nature of the business owner-employee relationship. I guess it all just comes down to one’s perspective.

I do own a business full of happy employees. And if one of them tried to manipulate me and make piles more money somewhere else, I'd wish them well and be happy they were gone.

But none of my employees are the difference between being middling in my business and, uh, winning trophies. Or something.

Whatever.

If being an owner consisted of sitting in a glass box drinking expensive bourbon, and watching thousands of people cheer for my employees, it would be very strange.

[bundabergdevil]

I don’t understand why many on this board seem to feel so negatively towards business owners. Do none of y’all own a business? I do, and I think the employees who work for my company are treated quite well and seem happy to be working there. That’s the direct feedback I get, anyway. Who knows for sure, though?

No business is going to be considered fair and just by everybody. It’s just not possible. And there will always be people knocking the business owner regardless of what they do. That’s just the nature of the business owner-employee relationship. I guess it all just comes down to one’s perspective.

I guess in reviewing the thread there were some posts expressing negative ownership sentiment; however, most of the posts were in response to your pretty scathing take down of "selfish", "manipulative" players like LBJ who were just looking out for number 1 and who don't let (LET!) GMs, coaches, and owners do their jobs. First of all, LBJ 100% delivers on team success. For a record 8 straights years, if you were in NBA management and you wanted to win a championship, you had better have LBJ on your team or some way to stop him. Championships are the goal of every team in the league and LBJ, more than any other player, gives you a chance at that team goal. Second, it is 100% of the job of good GMs and coaches to manage their talent. It is not the job of the rock band or A-List actor or fast corporate sales man to manage, it is their job to freaking rock, deliver a performance that make young girls weep, or land the big fish client. Sometimes they're difficult because the conditions they demand to do their jobs at a high level differ from the people attempting to manage. Tough titties, that's the life of a manager. Your rainmaker employee is either worth it or s/he isn't. That's the job of the manager to decide. If managers and coaches couldn't hang with LBJ, that's an indictment of them, not him.

Finally, NBA owners are RAKING IT IN. As I've posted elsewhere on this thread, average NBA team valuations have tripled in the last 5 years and the NBA's revenues are growing at the fastest clip of the major sports leagues. Their international growth looks (or did) great. This is not on the back of GMs and Coaches, the NBA is a star driven league. You need and want a star on your team to both win and for the international exposure. The top 10 most famous athletes in the world are only soccer players, tennis players, and basketball players (and tiger woods). NBA ownership is more lucrative than its ever been so, really, the star players are underpaid relative to the market value they generate.

[Troublemaker]

That being said, I don’t know the first thing about owning a professional sports franchise in a major sports league in the United States. I have no more clue than anyone else — and maybe less than some — on this board about what that entails. I certainly would not want anyone to think that I am claiming some kind of supreme knowledge about any of this. Far from it.

It's irrelevant anyway because at this point in Lebron's career, everyone knows what they're getting into bed with. Maybe DBR is unsympathetic to business owners (I personally don't know), but shoot, even owners are unsympathetic to other owners who knowingly hire employees that have baggage; they would expect those owners to live with the consequences, positive or negative.

Also, your complaint has bad timing because all the behind-the-scenes work last year that Lebron and Klutch Sports did to get Davis to the Lakers has ended up working out spectacularly for L.A., i.e. the business owner of the Lakers is happy right now, most likely.

[Duke79UNLV77]

Cook didn’t play last night, and the Lakers finally lost. #causeandeffect

[Steven43]

Cook didn’t play last night, and the Lakers finally lost. #causeandeffect

There you go. The wisest thing said to date in this thread. 😉

[Steven43]

It's irrelevant anyway because at this point in Lebron's career, everyone knows what they're getting into bed with. Maybe DBR is unsympathetic to business owners (I personally don't know), but shoot, even owners are unsympathetic to other owners who knowingly hire employees that have baggage; they would expect those owners to live with the consequences, positive or negative.

Also, your complaint has bad timing because all the behind-the-scenes work last year that Lebron and Klutch Sports did to get Davis to the Lakers has ended up working out spectacularly for L.A., i.e. the business owner of the Lakers is happy right now, most likely.

I agree with your thoughts in the first paragraph as well as most of your comments generally, but I disagree with some of your second paragraph.

First off, what has happened thus far this season is largely irrelevant. Only the playoffs will prove whether or not James and Davis going to the Lakers has been a true success. I’m not referring to success in the sense of creating revenue or fan interest. I’m talking strictly about championships. Also, I thought Davis’s quitting last season on his New Orleans teammates, coaches, GM, owner, and fans was absolutely disgraceful. And it was while he still had almost two years left on his contract. I think that entire shameful episode was a window into his character.

Second, my original point in slamming the way James has manipulated ALL of his previous teams as far as compromising and disregarding the jobs of GMs, coaches, and players still stands. Anyone who has closely followed his off-court career knows the extent to which he has forced his way into countless decisions involving players, coaches, and GMs. Furthermore, I think his meddling has cost his teams as many championships, and maybe more, than it has provided. So the jury is definitely out as to whether his machinations have truly been a net positive as far as winning championships goes.

Didn’t anyone else notice he and his team’s utter flameout versus Dallas in the 2011 Finals? That loss was squarely on James’s broad shoulders. Did you not see his team quit on him in the 2014 Finals versus San Antonio? Did you notice him quitting on his teammates and the entire Lakers organization and fanbase last year? And these are just three obvious examples. There are many other examples of his meddling potentially doing more harm than good.

[sagegrouse]

I do own a business full of happy employees. And if one of them tried to manipulate me and make piles more money somewhere else, I'd wish them well and be happy they were gone.

But none of my employees are the difference between being middling in my business and, uh, winning trophies. Or something.

Whatever.

If being an owner consisted of sitting in a glass box drinking expensive bourbon, and watching thousands of people cheer for my employees, it would be very strange.

Here's the economics from Dan Snyder's point of view, per his Forber profile:


In 1999, he bought the NFL's Washington Redskins for $750 million, borrowing $350 million to do so; it's now worth $3.4 billion.
About an eight percent return from appreciation of franchise value alone plus whatever return he makes in profits on the team -- less, of course, interest on the amount borrowed.

[jv001]

Here's the economics from Dan Snyder's point of view, per his Forber profile:


About an eight percent return from appreciation of franchise value alone plus whatever return he makes in profits on the team -- less, of course, interest on the amount borrowed.

And all Dan Snyder has done is make my Redskins the laughing stock of the NFL. I can't wait for the day he sells the team, but with the numbers you posted, it will be a long wait. Maybe not in my lifetime.

GoDuke!