MBB: Duke 77, Va Tech 63 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[scottdude8]

Under-the-radar takeaway from this one: if there was any remaining doubt, Joey Baker has officially been “freed”. The fact that K had faith in him to keep him on the court for long stretches even when he wasn’t shooting says volumes about how far he’s come. He’ll never be a defensive stalwart but he’s definitely passable on that end and he hustles hard even when he’s outmatched. This is the development a lot of us wanted to see this year as a potential to push this team to the next level.

Obviously not the biggest takeaway, but something that could pay big dividends down the line.

Also, Jack White just makes winning plays. Period.

[robed deity]

Great contributions from everyone. Really good Goldwire game. It's a good matchup for him, and his athleticism and physicality were huge.

[Bluedevil114]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

What a very satisfying week versus the last week. Team definitely got better. Go Duke.

[Bob Green]

Excellent conference road win!

The team really stepped up in the 2nd half.

[proelitedota]

The key to a good game from AOC is to play him when we're up 12 late.

[UrinalCake]

Great win, we obviously can't take wins like this for granted even if VT is unranked. Got knocked back early as VT had much more energy playing at home and being rested, but we responded really well. Keeping Carey on the bench was the right move against this unique lineup. Was really impressed how when he got back in the game it would have been natural for him to want to force up a shot after sitting for so long, but he instead made a great play and passed it out to Hurt for an open three.

The team moved the ball really well, didn't panic when they got down and finally was able to play their game in the second half. The small lineup allowed us to switch everything and generate the turnovers that we thrive on. Really satisfying win. As I said in the in-game chat, we've beaten a big physical team and a small great shooting team within a span of four days. Really nice to have that versatility and depth.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Great win tonight! Nice change of strategy going small. He is, after all, the GOAT! LGD GTHc!

[ChrisP]

After allowing 41 pts in the first, we held them to roughly 1/2 that in the 2nd stanza. Nice! And big props to AOC not to get discouraged - I felt his back to back hoops (a 3 followed by a sweet pull up for 2) really took any belief in a comeback out of VT's collective minds. Really interesting game and lineups. This K guy seems like a pretty good coach.

[CDu]

Excellent conference road win!

The team really stepped up in the 2nd half.

Nailed it, Bob. Two really nice, satisfying wins. Lots to like in the team’s performance this week.

[follyblue]

Huge to win in Blacksburg with not a lot from Carey. Nice team win.

[bbosbbos]

Great win tonight! Nice change of strategy going small. He is, after all, the GOAT! LGD GTHc!

Ozzie, could not agree more. This is the reason why he is the GOAT.

[CDu]

After allowing 41 pts in the first, we held them to roughly 1/2 that in the 2nd stanza. Nice! And big props to AOC not to get discouraged - I felt his back to back hoops (a 3 followed by a sweet pull up for 2) really took any belief in a comeback out of VT's collective minds. Really interesting game and lineups. This K guy seems like a pretty good coach.

We just held a top-40 offense to under 1 point per possession. On their home court. On basically no rest. With one of our key starters limited physically. Let that sink in, folks.

[Saratoga2]

It appears that our small team is better than their small team. Good to rest Hurt and Carey against that lineup and use our smaller quick guys. Moore had a nice game tonight. Really nice week for the guys. Should move us back up in the standings, maybe even to the top 5.

[TheOldBattleship]

As others have said, this was a fantastic game from K. From going to the press to get the guys going defensively to being willing to experiment with some different lineups, to leaning on guys when they were exploiting matchups, to keeping us calm when they were hitting tough shots at an unsustainable rate, this was an absolute masterclass from Coach.

[gep]

Couldn’t watch the game... only boxscore. Looking for comments on Stanley. Not play much? Hope he is not hurt again...

[devilnfla]

35 bench points, wow! Might be the best performance from our bench in years.

[phaedrus]

We just held a top-40 offense to under 1 point per possession. On their home court. On basically no rest. With one of our key starters limited physically. Let that sink in, folks.

No rest? Didn’t we last play Tuesday (albeit late)? Maybe I’m missing something.

[Saratoga2]

No rest? Didn’t we last play Tuesday (albeit late)? Maybe I’m missing something.

Got in at 4am, exams, flew on Thursday. Low rest. Low prep\aration.

[TheOldBattleship]

Couldn’t watch the game... only boxscore. Looking for comments on Stanley. Not play much? Hope he is not hurt again...

He was clearly rusty. Didn't feel fully comfortable pushing it on the drive. Looked pretty solid defensively. Definitely no reinjury issues, as far as I could tell. This just felt like a tough matchup for him to try to ease his way back into action. Totally understandable, of course, especially since this was apparently just his second day of being able to do full-contact basketball work. Good to see him out there, and looking forward to seeing him back to himself soon.

[UrinalCake]

Another thing I really liked is that even though we were hitting threes early, we didn’t just keep jacking them up despite falling behind. We recognized that the only way to win would be to attack the rim. And we still kept hitting threes 8-).

[arnie]

Weird stats: we shot more 3s, they out rebounded us, we were 10 of 10 from the line.

[BandAlum83]

Great contributions from everyone. Really good Goldwire game. It's a good matchup for him, and his athleticism and physicality were huge.

No ACCN for me. Looked at the box score. J Goldwire 10/6. WTF?

[-jk]

No rest? Didn’t we last play Tuesday (albeit late)? Maybe I’m missing something.

Yes, they played Tuesday. And they got back RDU at 4am.

-jk

[DukieInBrasil]

Another slow start, but once this team figured out how to score consistently and slowed their attack down..... The game really turned in the final "quarter", i don't know if that was due to superior depth or execution (both?) but it was impressive.
Nice to see AOC contribute even when his shot wasn't falling, and then it started falling a bit. Nice to see. Also nice to see Wendell turn in a solid overall performance. Also, also nice was that Joey Baker turned in a stat-stuffer game, indicating that the toughness and hustle some people were noticing before started showing up statistically, even if his shots weren't falling tonight.
MOTM goes to Tre, led the team in pts, assists and rebounds.

[killerleft]

I think that the SFA game forced Coach K to think quite a bit about what to do against that type of team. He's a thinker.

Great game by Wendell Moore. Still a bit wild at times, but I doubt Coach K wants to completely rein that in. His defense was solid.

[gep]

He was clearly rusty. Didn't feel fully comfortable pushing it on the drive. Looked pretty solid defensively. Definitely no reinjury issues, as far as I could tell. This just felt like a tough matchup for him to try to ease his way back into action. Totally understandable, of course, especially since this was apparently just his second day of being able to do full-contact basketball work. Good to see him out there, and looking forward to seeing him back to himself soon.

Thanks for your comments.

[scottdude8]

Got in at 4am, exams, flew on Thursday. Low rest. Low prep\aration.

Exacerbated by the fact that Va Tech had a whole week to prepare since they didn’t play in the challenge.

[-jk]

I think that the SFA game forced Coach K to think quite a bit about what to do against that type of team. He's a thinker.

Great game by Wendell Moore. Still a bit wild at times, but I doubt Coach K wants to completely rein that in. His defense was solid.

I'd love to know what Wendell said to inspire the flagrant.

-jk

[Reddevil]

I'd love to know what Wendell said to inspire the flagrant.

-jk

He said,"Duke 45 VT 10".

[SavDukeGrad]

I'd love to know what Wendell said to inspire the flagrant.

-jk

Me too! Although maybe Nolley was just frustrated, since Moore had held him scoreless in the 2nd half.

[robed deity]

Also, if you had Duke's only loss through 10 games being at home to SFA, let's take a trip to Vegas.

[jv001]

I thought Coach K did a masterful coaching job tonight. Going small to stop some of the inside scoring was masterful. But I'm not surprised. He is the GOAT. VT was driving the ball at Vernon and he couldn't defend that type play. I thought Moore did a good job. Next to Tre, Wendell might be Duke's best on the ball defender. Now some time off and as the young men get with the school work.

GoDuke!

[Tripping William]

Not sure I have seen a more effective timeout in a long, long time. Ol’ Roy might want to watch & learn.

[CameronDuke]

Duke can’t win true road games, and for this reason, Coach K goes out of his way NOT to schedule them.

LET’S GO DUKE!

[du_bb1]

Really good game, interesting strategy, thought K mighty try a zone. Obviously why he is there and I am here.....

each where they should be

[Troublemaker]

From the 20,000-ft level, Duke just executed our pregame plan well. We held VaTech to their fewest 3-pt attempts of the season *and* their lowest percentage shooting from 3 for the season (25%). We gave up some layups as a result, but overall the Hokies could only register 0.95 ppp without their threes. And Duke's offense did enough to carry us to the win. That's what I laid out in the pregame thread.

But when you dig in, it becomes a much more interesting story and you see that Coach K did a great coaching job -- he decided that to beat this smallball 5-out team, Duke would have to *become* a smallball 5-out team ourselves. And we ended up beating VaTech at their own game. Just wonderful!

[chrishoke]

MOTM goes to Tre, led the team in pts, assists and rebounds.

Tre was simply magnificent tonight. Reminded me of Grant Hill's play his senior year.

[SavDukeGrad]

I feel like I have re-lived the sweet 16 and elite 8 games this week. Nice to get 2 wins this time!

Masterful adjustments by Coach K. I was afraid we didn't have enough scoring ability on the floor, when he put Jack at the 5, while Goldwire and Moore were on the floor with Tre and Joey. But he believed in them and they delivered. Nice to see Moore have a good game too.

[SkyBrickey]

Tre was outstanding. Goldwire, Moore and White with great games. AOC comes through with big buckets and seemed more confident/aggressive.

From the eye test, VT was playing with about 60% of the energy in the second half as the first. In the first 10 min of the game they were flying around the court. Tough to sustain that for 40 minutes. We definitely wore them down.

MOTM to Coach K.

[SouthernDukie]

Great win in another hostile environment.

More strange stats: Duke is dead last in the nation giving up points in the paint, yet we are first in blocks? I think that’s what I heard during the game.

Our pressure D on the perimeter is solid and we do force our fair share of turnovers, but we also are susceptible to being beat off the dribble. So I guess the “points in the paint” stat makes sense. But I believe we will get better with our interior D as the season progresses.

[DUKIE V(A)]

Always difficult to beat VA Tech in Blacksburg. Nice win! Hokie Nation is In good hands with Coach Young; he does a nice job.

Does anyone have three better wins than Duke?

Kansas
@ Sparty
@ VA Tech

[SkyBrickey]

Always difficult to beat VA Tech in Blacksburg. Nice win! Hokie Nation is In good hands with Coach Young; he does a nice job.

Does anyone have three better wins than Duke?

Kansas
@ Sparty
@ VA Tech

Definitely not. There’s a reason why we will be #1 in all the computer ratings.

[Troublemaker]

Always difficult to beat VA Tech in Blacksburg. Nice win! Hokie Nation is In good hands with Coach Young; he does a nice job.

Does anyone have three better wins than Duke?

Kansas
@ Sparty
@ VA Tech

Interesting question (maybe). If I told Duke fans that you have the power to re-write history but you have to distribute 3 wins and 1 loss among these four opponents -- KU (neutral), SFA (home), @MSU, @VaTech -- how would you distribute those 3 wins and 1 loss? See, for me, I wouldn't change a thing. I want the two big wins against KU and @MSU, and I want the ACC road win @VaTech. SFA beats us, and I don't care that much, because we won the bigger games.

[-jk]

Definitely not. There’s a reason why we will be #1 in all the computer ratings.

We're still #3 in KenPom. We'll see what happens with he removes the pre-season biases.

-jk

[BD80]

ACC regular season game.

Duke played TEN players, with the 5 subs averaging 21 minutes, each sub playing 12 or more minutes.

That last happened in … ?


(no injury to a starter requiring substitution)

[roywhite]

Me too! Although maybe Nolley was just frustrated, since Moore had held him scoreless in the 2nd half.

Could be. Nolley made some plays, but ended up with a strange looking stat line of 7 points, 8 rebounds, and 9 turnovers.

https://goduke.com/documents/2019/12/6//120619_.pdf

[CDu]

ACC regular season game.

Duke played TEN players, with the 5 subs averaging 21 minutes, each sub playing 12 or more minutes.

That last happened in … ?


(no injury to a starter requiring substitution)

To be fair, one of the starters (Stanley) basically played reserve minutes (7) as he was returning from injury.

[roywhite]

No shortage of really good defenders on this team -- Tre Jones, Jordan Goldwire, and Jack White are experienced, smart, and tough. Wendell Moore looks like a versatile stopper and others are coming along.

This Duke team is a throwback to some of K's early teams -- no fun to play offense against. Duke wears teams down.

[uh_no]

We're still #3 in KenPom. We'll see what happens with he removes the pre-season biases.

-jk

i'd imagine the loss to SFA at home is as damaging at this point as any pre-season suppression.

[COYS]

This was Moore’s best game and it was wonderful to see. He still had some moments where he was thinking too much or moving too fast, but for the most part he was great tonight. There were a few times he drove into the lane, read the defense, and passed/dribbled back out before he got into trouble. Just last week he would have turned the ball over or forced a tough shot. And his defense was great. He was quietly our best offensive player by offensive rating. He was by far our worst offensive regular coming into the game. So quite a turnaround. And I hope it continues because he offers so much and makes a deep Duke team even deeper.

Speaking of depth, coach K just played ELEVEN!&/):&;)! guys 7 minutes or more in a non-blowout ACC Road game. Ten of those guys got double figures.

Also, perusing Bart Torvik’s advances box score, our best player by Game Box Plus/Minus was Vernon, with Wendell coming in second. So once K figured out how to use Vernon, he was absolutely deadly in his limited minutes.

I have to say, I’m far more bullish on this team’s chances to bring home number six than I thought I would be prior to the start of the season, even with the SF Austin game. Not that I thought Duke would be bad, but I didn’t think we had much of a chance to be one of the favorites heading into the tournament. But this team is better than I expected. Vernon is a dominant player. The defense has been awesome (and can be even better as the freshman work their way in). And the team has looked good despite uneven offense. Any offensive improvement and this team could actually be dominant in a way I did not expect this year.

http://barttorvik.com/box.php?muid=DukeVirginia+Tech12-6&year=2020

[OldPhiKap]

i'd imagine the loss to SFA at home is as damaging at this point as any pre-season suppression.

Yup. We should be a top ten team from our wins, but probably not a top five team. Which sounds about right.

Hard to think of many teams clearly above us too. Parity is a real thing for several reasons.

[roywhite]

Crikey, what a dunk by Jack White in the 2nd half!

[Mak P]

No shortage of really good defenders on this team -- Tre Jones, Jordan Goldwire, and Jack White are experienced, smart, and tough. Wendell Moore looks like a versatile stopper and others are coming along.

This Duke team is a throwback to some of K's early teams -- no fun to play offense against. Duke wears teams down.

I think it was us vs Georgetown he blocked the shot into the stands lol

[ncexnyc]

A very impressive win tonight. We took Tech's best shot and managed to make it a game by half-time. Coach K. righted the ship with that key timeout after a shaky start to the 2nd half and the team responded big time.

Moore must like playing on Fridays, as this was his best game since the Georgetown game. I was also pleased to see Alex contribute in a positive manner. Watching him is very frustrating as a fan, because it's obvious he his the physical talent as well as the basketball skills necessary to be a very good player. I really believe his problems are between his ears.

[Kedsy]

Two nice road wins in one week. I'll take it.

OFFENSE

Possessions: 66.3 (very slow; VaTech won the pace battle)
oRtg: 1.16 (good; 4th best oRtg in nine games; not sure adjusted rate is worth it yet, but this adjusts to 1.21)
eFG%: 53.2% (decent but not great; 6th best out of 10 games)
3pt%: 26.9% (pretty bad)
2pt%: 62.2% (excellent; 2nd best 2pt marksmanship of the season)
%threes: 41.3% (waaaay too high for this Duke team)
FT rate: 15.9% (pretty awful; lowest FTR of the season)
OR%: 25.0% (third straight really bad OR performance)
TO%: 10.6% (excellent; best offensive TO% of the season; though it should be noted VaTech ranks tied for 227th in forcing TOs)
a/to: 2:1 (quite good)
%assisted: 46.7%
fast break pts: 6 (7.8% of points; very poor)

DEFENSE

dRtg: 0.95 (last five games have been our four worst unadjusted defensive ppp of the season; again with the caveat on adjusted rates, this one was 0.86, which is pretty good)
eFG%: 52.7% (poor)
3pt%: 25.0% (good)
2pt%: 61.1% (somewhat awful; fifth straight game over 50%)
%threes: 35.7% (2nd highest %3 of the season, but much lower than VaTech's 48.5% coming into the game)
FT rate: 10.7% (outstanding, best FTR of the season; though it's worth noting VaTech ranks 326th in the nation in FTR; still, their rate for the season is 22.4%, so this is much lower)
DR%: 77.4% (excellent; 6th game out of 10 over 77%; 9th game out of 10 over 70%)
TO%: 21.1% (over 20% for the first time in four games; especially impressive considering VaTech is tied for 31st lowest TO% in the country)
a/to: 0.86:1 (more opposing TOs than assists for the first time in four games)
%assisted: 44.4%
stl%: 12.1% (good; third straight game 12% or better)
blk%: 7.1% (11.1% of 2pt shots) (only fair)
fast break pts: 3 (4.8% of points; fabulous; lowest % of opponent's points for the 2nd straight game)


Odd stats in this game. Good offensive production, but the only things we did well were two-point shooting and hardly any turnovers. Defense decent all around, other than opposing 2pt%.

For aficionados of unexpected individual statistics, Javin DeLaurier has (a) made nine shots in a row; and (b) only committed one (1) personal foul in his last 30 minutes on the floor.

[Kedsy]

Speaking of depth, coach K just played ELEVEN!&/):&;)! guys 7 minutes or more in a non-blowout ACC Road game. Ten of those guys got double figures.

I may not be that good at counting, but I'm pretty sure it's TEN and Nine (rather than ELEVEN and Ten).

[Neals384]

ACC regular season game.

Duke played TEN players, with the 5 subs averaging 21 minutes, each sub playing 12 or more minutes.

That last happened in … ?


(no injury to a starter requiring substitution)

duke was perfect from the free throw line

that last happened in....?

[ndkjr70]

I just watched the game. And re-watched it. Unless I missed something, and I don’t think I did, there was a total of ZERO fouls called on made baskets for either team. 0 opportunities for an “and-one”. I have never, ever seen that.

[hustleplays]

Two nice road wins in one week. I'll take it.

OFFENSE

Possessions: 66.3 (very slow; VaTech won the pace battle)
oRtg: 1.16 (good; 4th best oRtg in nine games; not sure adjusted rate is worth it yet, but this adjusts to 1.21)
eFG%: 53.2% (decent but not great; 6th best out of 10 games)
3pt%: 26.9% (pretty bad)
2pt%: 62.2% (excellent; 2nd best 2pt marksmanship of the season)
%threes: 41.3% (waaaay too high for this Duke team)
FT rate: 15.9% (pretty awful; lowest FTR of the season)
OR%: 25.0% (third straight really bad OR performance)
TO%: 10.6% (excellent; best offensive TO% of the season; though it should be noted VaTech ranks tied for 227th in forcing TOs)
a/to: 2:1 (quite good)
%assisted: 46.7%
fast break pts: 6 (7.8% of points; very poor)

DEFENSE

dRtg: 0.95 (last five games have been our four worst unadjusted defensive ppp of the season; again with the caveat on adjusted rates, this one was 0.86, which is pretty good)
eFG%: 52.7% (poor)
3pt%: 25.0% (good)
2pt%: 61.1% (somewhat awful; fifth straight game over 50%)
%threes: 35.7% (2nd highest %3 of the season, but much lower than VaTech's 48.5% coming into the game)
FT rate: 10.7% (outstanding, best FTR of the season; though it's worth noting VaTech ranks 326th in the nation in FTR; still, their rate for the season is 22.4%, so this is much lower)
DR%: 77.4% (excellent; 6th game out of 10 over 77%; 9th game out of 10 over 70%)
TO%: 21.1% (over 20% for the first time in four games; especially impressive considering VaTech is tied for 31st lowest TO% in the country)
a/to: 0.86:1 (more opposing TOs than assists for the first time in four games)
%assisted: 44.4%
stl%: 12.1% (good; third straight game 12% or better)
blk%: 7.1% (11.1% of 2pt shots) (only fair)
fast break pts: 3 (4.8% of points; fabulous; lowest % of opponent's points for the 2nd straight game)


Odd stats in this game. Good offensive production, but the only things we did well were two-point shooting and hardly any turnovers. Defense decent all around, other than opposing 2pt%.

For aficionados of unexpected individual statistics, Javin DeLaurier has (a) made nine shots in a row; and (b) only committed one (1) personal foul in his last 30 minutes on the floor.


Kedsy, Thank you for your thorough breakdown of the atypical stats for this game.

I happen to think that both the statistical and the [informed] "eyeball" perspectives on a game have validity, even when they diverge. Sometimes your statistical reports inform and correct my eyeballs, other times I think that the stats don't capture essential elements of what goes on in a basketball game. Your stats on Javin's recent play are compelling. My eyeballs, allied with my very finite memory, told me that Javin is playing better. I didn't know how much better. Nine shots in a row, and one foul in 30 minutes! wow. One eyeball perspective: Javin is displaying some nifty big man offensive moves to the basket, and finishing. Who knew? Go Javin!

[Music man55]

Man,did the Blue devils get it done in the second half tonight! Thought J.White and JGold were fantastic and Tre great as always. Good to see AOC play better. Huge shots toward the end and Wendell played some really good minutes.Coach K showed why he is the GOAT when he inserted that small lineup that helped take the Hokies apart! So nice to get a win in that Blacksburg barn for a change. Go Duke!!!

[hustleplays]

Like many of us, I came to love Duke b-ball for a number of reasons, including its signature tough defense. Then, alas, came the OAD years. Almost too painful to recall...from a defense point of view. I am still working at overcoming my PTSD from the 2015 Miami game in Cameron when they shredded our M2M. One of their guards said after the game, it's easy to beat Duke, just draw them out and blow past them. K added zone to our defense and that helped. But I missed the good ol days.

I need Kedsy and others to either to confirm or refute, but my non-data-supported view is that we have had decent but not great defensive teams since then. Until this year. This year's team plays tough D, nearly always M2M. Again, if the overall stats don't confirm, I will recalibrate what I think my eyeballs are seeing: Tenacious on-ball defense, good lateral quickness, smart switching and good help. This team seems to really want to play good D, and they do [again, eyeball perspective].

My question is: Why do they seem to be more committed to playing tough D this year than before? I have heard that it's because of Tre, but that doesn't seem to fully account.

I would greatly appreciate any insights. Jim Sumner, do you have some inside skinny?

[uh_no]

Like many of us, I came to love Duke b-ball for a number of reasons, including its signature tough defense. Then, alas, came the OAD years. Almost too painful to recall...from a defense point of view. I am still working at overcoming my PTSD from the 2015 Miami game in Cameron when they shredded our M2M. One of their guards said after the game, it's easy to beat Duke, just draw them out and blow past them. K added zone to our defense and that helped. But I missed the good ol days.

I need Kedsy and others to either to confirm or refute, but my non-data-supported view is that we have had decent but not great defensive teams since then. Until this year. This year's team plays tough D, nearly always M2M. Again, if the overall stats don't confirm, I will recalibrate what I think my eyeballs are seeing: Tenacious on-ball defense, good lateral quickness, smart switching and good help. This team seems to really want to play good D, and they do [again, eyeball perspective].

My question is: Why do they seem to be more committed to playing tough D this year than before? I have heard that it's because of Tre, but that doesn't seem to fully account.

I would greatly appreciate any insights. Jim Sumner, do you have some inside skinny?

We had one of the best defensive teams in the country most of last year. and a top 10 defense the year before.

[proelitedota]

Biggest question that I have now:

Would Javin ever get triple teamed again?

[UrinalCake]

Our team’s leading rebounder? Tre and Goldwire tied with six apiece.

[UrinalCake]

My question is: Why do they seem to be more committed to playing tough D this year than before?

I think it’s a combination of a.) K drilling into the team from the start that they would need to focus on defense and that would be the key to their success, b.) having a lot of depth and guys knowing that if they don’t play D then someone else will, c.) Tre’s leadership and energy which everyone feeds off of, d.) recruiting guys who are just naturally more defensive minded.

Last year’s team was great defensively, but it was created more by their insane physical gifts and not as much on team communication and hustle. The season before was when we played zone with Carter and Bagley, statistically our defensive efficiency was really good but the eye test told me we had real flaws that were almost impossible to overcome. 2016 and 2017 we had offensive players who didn’t play a lick of D, those are really the seasons people refer to when they say OAD’s can’t play defense. 2015 too, although we pulled it together for the tournament. That six game run of amazing defense was a complete anomaly, akin to a terrible shooting team suddenly making 50% of its threes over six games.

[ChillinDuke]

Just a beautiful game. Workmanlike.

I was harsh on K after SFA (fairly, I believe) and I'll correspondingly shower praise after this one. It was an excellent scheme by K. And most impressive to see him play such a deep bench and give such long leashes to so many players, including Baker, Goldwire, and AOC, especially at the expense of Carey. Beautiful job.

We looked excellent tonight. Those that said Goldwire and White are black holes on offense after the SFA game (sorry, kshep, have to call you out on that one) were shown a different story in this one. The entire team looked balanced and versatile, fully capable of handling a solid ACC team on the road.

Make no mistake, EVERY single ACC road game is a tough one. If you've forgotten that, then you've forgotten a lot. It's never easy on the road in conference. So this was a very, very solid and pleasing win. We had contributions almost universally across the board (save maybe Stanley, returning from injury) and we looked good doing it.

Excellent win. Kinda crazy to think we lost to SFA after this past week. But also, somewhat meaningless that we lost to SFA after this week. There is next to zero doubt in my mind that we would beat SFA in a rematch right now. We look like we're improving...quickly.

And I LOVE that.

- Chillin

[Dukehk]

This team has alot of pieces that can be chopped and changed to matchup well against nearly any type of opponent.

Incredible coaching by the GOAT to adapt his lineup against one of the smallest teams in the NCAA (I believe there was a stat during the game that ranked vtech as 300+ in terms of height whereas we are 12th in the entire NCAA).

Moore I thought had a great game defensively and showed alot of confidence from the free throw line!

[dukelifer]

This team has alot of pieces that can be chopped and changed to matchup well against nearly any type of opponent.

Incredible coaching by the GOAT to adapt his lineup against one of the smallest teams in the NCAA (I believe there was a stat during the game that ranked vtech as 300+ in terms of height whereas we are 12th in the entire NCAA).

Moore I thought had a great game defensively and showed alot of confidence from the free throw line!

I did not get to watch in real time and when I saw the score I thought Duke dominated the second half. I was surprised that this was very close until a small stretch in the last 5 or so minutes. This team is hard to prepare for. Different players are stepping up every game. Moore has been playing poorly and sparingly for a couple games and he was a key last night. Goldwire continues to impress and is becoming a real pain for opposing teams. This team is figuring it out- the players are truly understanding their roles and that K will mix and match on any given night. K must really like coaching this group.

[COYS]

I may not be that good at counting, but I'm pretty sure it's TEN and Nine (rather than ELEVEN and Ten).

You are correct. I got too excited.

[sagegrouse]

Like many of us, I came to love Duke b-ball for a number of reasons, including its signature tough defense. Then, alas, came the OAD years. Almost too painful to recall...from a defense point of view. I am still working at overcoming my PTSD from the 2015 Miami game in Cameron when they shredded our M2M. One of their guards said after the game, it's easy to beat Duke, just draw them out and blow past them. K added zone to our defense and that helped. But I missed the good ol days.

I need Kedsy and others to either to confirm or refute, but my non-data-supported view is that we have had decent but not great defensive teams since then. Until this year. This year's team plays tough D, nearly always M2M. Again, if the overall stats don't confirm, I will recalibrate what I think my eyeballs are seeing: Tenacious on-ball defense, good lateral quickness, smart switching and good help. This team seems to really want to play good D, and they do [again, eyeball perspective].

My question is: Why do they seem to be more committed to playing tough D this year than before? I have heard that it's because of Tre, but that doesn't seem to fully account.

I would greatly appreciate any insights. Jim Sumner, do you have some inside skinny?

Well, we have four experienced upper classmen plus an outstanding sophomore in Tre and added four talented freshmen, who seem committed to playing defense. Plus an asset in Joey Baker. As a result, we will wear out lesser teams with fewer ACC-caliber players.

Kindly,
Sage
'And the biggest reason of all is that K is finally listening to us and playing ten players -- about time!'

[devilnfla]

This was Moore’s best game and it was wonderful to see. He still had some moments where he was thinking too much or moving too fast, but for the most part he was great tonight. 6&year=2020[/url]

I still think the Georgetown game was his best. I didn't see much from him last night, at least on the offensive end until mid 2nd half.

[devilnfla]

Crikey, what a dunk by Jack White in the 2nd half!

I may have missed the thread, but is anyone keeping up with the team dunk stats this year? I know we don't have as many as the last couple of years, but still enough to enjoy with some expected highlight reel dunks by Cassius.

[rocketeli]

i'm guessing that in his heart of hearts K is still most comfortable with finding his seven players to ride, but I'd be fine if Duke never "figured out" who the main "wing" players are going to be and it stayed fluid all year. The conurbation of White, Stanley, O'Connell, Moore, Hurt, and Baker gives the team a great deal of flexibility and variety to meet various game situations and will make it that much harder for opponents to prepare for the games.

[Fish80]

i'm guessing that in his heart of hearts K is still most comfortable with finding his seven players to ride, but I'd be fine if Duke never "figured out" who the main "wing" players are going to be and it stayed fluid all year. The conurbation of White, Stanley, O'Connell, Moore, Hurt, and Baker gives the team a great deal of flexibility and variety to meet various game situations and will make it that much harder for opponents to prepare for the games.

A conurbation is a region comprising a number of cities, large towns, and other urban areas that, through population growth and physical expansion, have merged to form one continuous urban or industrially developed area.

[arnie]

I may have missed the thread, but is anyone keeping up with the team dunk stats this year? I know we don't have as many as the last couple of years, but still enough to enjoy with some expected highlight reel dunks by Cassius.

I thought White likely traveled before that dunk and one other play in 2nd half. Didn’t he lose control of the ball before the drive, grab it again and then drive. Anyone with better look?

[Fish80]

I thought White likely traveled before that dunk and one other play in 2nd half. Didn’t he lose control of the ball before the drive, grab it again and then drive. Anyone with better look?

Ball was touched by defensive player. He’s allowed to regain control. No travel.

[Bob Green]

I thought White likely traveled before that dunk and one other play in 2nd half. Didn’t he lose control of the ball before the drive, grab it again and then drive. Anyone with better look?

There was a play were perhaps Jack White double dribbled. Cory Alexander pointed it out but if the refs don’t call it, it didn’t happen.

[moonpie23]

i'm really excited to see so many in the rotation....i know that's got to be hard on the other team's d-plan......


go duke !!

[DukieInBrasil]

Raise your hand if you thought that J-Gold would be shooting the 3 at a better rate than AOC this year? Also, raise your hand if you thought AOC would have the worst 3FG% of players who have made at least one 3?
I don't mean this to rag on AOC, just goes to show that our expectations for players can miss the mark. Hopefully this is just a snapshot of a moment during the year and by the end of the year AOC will have adjusted, grown and recovered his shooting stroke.

[devildeac]

There was a play were perhaps Jack White double dribbled. Cory Alexander pointed it out but if the refs don’t call it, it didn’t happen.

WWBS?














(what would bilas say?)

:mad:

[TruBlu]

WWBS?



(what would bilas say?)

:mad:

That the no-call was the greatest tragedy in the history of mankind . . . and what about Cole Anthony and UNC? Aren’t they great?!?

[devildeac]

No ACCN for me so Mrs. dd and I went out for the evening, just like the OPKs (great minds and all that stuff) but I've looked at the box score and read the recaps here and remain rather surprised at our path to the victory. No real "stars" for the game with a long list of quality contributors. Great stuff.

[devildeac]

That the no-call was the greatest tragedy in the history of mankind . . . and what about Cole Anthony and UNC? Aren’t they great?!?

Sounds about right :rolleyes:.

[tbyers11]

No ACCN for me so Mrs. dd and I went out for the evening, just like the OPKs (great minds and all that stuff) but I've looked at the box score and read the recaps here and remain rather surprised at our path to the victory. No real "stars" for the game with a long list of quality contributors. Great stuff.

Extended highlight video (21 minutes) on YouTube if you want to see some of what you missed.


https://youtu.be/Tt6zAw8exDQ

[Listen to Quants]

From the 20,000-ft level, Duke just executed our pregame plan well. We held VaTech to their fewest 3-pt attempts of the season *and* their lowest percentage shooting from 3 for the season (25%). We gave up some layups as a result, but overall the Hokies could only register 0.95 ppp without their threes. And Duke's offense did enough to carry us to the win. That's what I laid out in the pregame thread.

But when you dig in, it becomes a much more interesting story and you see that Coach K did a great coaching job -- he decided that to beat this smallball 5-out team, Duke would have to *become* a smallball 5-out team ourselves. And we ended up beating VaTech at their own game. Just wonderful!
And Coach K is known for not adjusting to your opponent, instead forcing them to adjust to you. That's a fine idea when it works and when it doesn't adjust the adjustment. Nice example of flexible thinking in an old dog. :)

[devildeac]

Extended highlight video (21 minutes) on YouTube if you want to see some of what you missed.


https://youtu.be/Tt6zAw8exDQ

Excellent! Thanks! I'll watch the video this afternoon. What beer should I sip while watching? (shameless :o)

[Steven43]

Great win in another hostile environment.

More strange stats: Duke is dead last in the nation giving up points in the paint, yet we are first in blocks? I think that’s what I heard during the game.

Our pressure D on the perimeter is solid and we do force our fair share of turnovers, but we also are susceptible to being beat off the dribble. So I guess the “points in the paint” stat makes sense. But I believe we will get better with our interior D as the season progresses.

Doesn’t pretty much everybody get beat off the dribble these days? Basketball has just evolved to where most guards, and even many forwards, are able to get past their initial defender.

It has become a point of real emphasis for the most frequent ballhandlers to learn the necessary skills to enable them to beat their man off the dribble. The guy with the ball has the advantage over his defender. If even Tre Jones gets beaten frequently I think that says a lot.

[CDu]

Raise your hand if you thought that J-Gold would be shooting the 3 at a better rate than AOC this year? Also, raise your hand if you thought AOC would have the worst 3FG% of players who have made at least one 3?
I don't mean this to rag on AOC, just goes to show that our expectations for players can miss the mark. Hopefully this is just a snapshot of a moment during the year and by the end of the year AOC will have adjusted, grown and recovered his shooting stroke.

I’m’ll go ahead and throw a “small sample size alert” on this one.

[WVDUKEFAN]

I personally think yesterday was a great win. We showed how diverse of a team we can be. We might not have 3 top five picks, but we play hard and have a lot of heart. I will take that any day.

[CDu]

There was a play were perhaps Jack White double dribbled. Cory Alexander pointed it out but if the refs don’t call it, it didn’t happen.

Much like the infamous steal and dunk to end the SFA game, by rule it wasn’t a double dribble. The pass from Moore (?) to White in the corner was a bit off target. White knocked it to the floor to gain possession. By rule, that wasn’t a dribble, even though it looks basically the same as a dribble. He then pump-faked a 3 before actually initiating his dribble.

Just like the correct non-call against SFA was made, the correct non-call was made on White’s play.

[arnie]

Much like the infamous steal and dunk to end the SFA game, by rule it wasn’t a double dribble. The pass from Moore (?) to White in the corner was a bit off target. White knocked it to the floor to gain possession. By rule, that wasn’t a dribble, even though it looks basically the same as a dribble. He then pump-faked a 3 before actually initiating his dribble.

Just like the correct non-call against SFA was made, the correct non-call was made on White’s play.

That one and the play when after controlling the ball, he lost control, the ball went straight up, he grabbed it again and the drove. Apparently that ball was knocked from his hands initially.

Both plays looked strange and I suspect Bilas files a friend of the court complaint to Swofford.

[robed deity]

Much like the infamous steal and dunk to end the SFA game, by rule it wasn’t a double dribble. The pass from Moore (?) to White in the corner was a bit off target. White knocked it to the floor to gain possession. By rule, that wasn’t a dribble, even though it looks basically the same as a dribble. He then pump-faked a 3 before actually initiating his dribble.

Just like the correct non-call against SFA was made, the correct non-call was made on White’s play.

No, but see, the SFA one wasn't a double dribble, and White's play WAS. It's so obvious-the haters told me so.

[Kedsy]

I may have missed the thread, but is anyone keeping up with the team dunk stats this year? I know we don't have as many as the last couple of years, but still enough to enjoy with some expected highlight reel dunks by Cassius.

I have been tracking it privately. I can post sometime this coming week.

[devilnfla]

I have been tracking it privately. I can post sometime this coming week.

Thanks Kedsy.

[mpj96]

Our small ball man 2 man was absolutely smothering in the "4th quarter". Great come back.

[CDu]

That one and the play when after controlling the ball, he lost control, the ball went straight up, he grabbed it again and the drove. Apparently that ball was knocked from his hands initially.

Both plays looked strange and I suspect Bilas files a friend of the court complaint to Swofford.

Yeah, the one you mentioned looked much more questionable. Couldn’t see it, but the ball must have been stripped on the way up, otherwise that would have been a travel.

[SOB13]

I am in the ACCTV black hole, and the extended highlights don’t do justice to the stretch I wish I could watch - the last 9:00. VT had 55 points and was down 1. Didn’t break 60 until 0:33. Was the D as stifling as that looks on paper?

[SavDukeGrad]

I am in the ACCTV black hole, and the extended highlights don’t do justice to the stretch I wish I could watch - the last 9:00. VT had 55 points and was down 1. Didn’t break 60 until 0:33. Was the D as stifling as that looks on paper?

While watching live, the lead escalated quickly. We were ahead by 5-7 points, but the outcome still seemed very much in doubt to me. Then all of a sudden, we were up 15. I think the sequence of the flagrant on Nolley, Young took Nolley out of the game, and Moore drained both free throws was a turning point.

[Tripping William]

Excellent! Thanks! I'll watch the video this afternoon. What beer should I sip while watching? (shameless :o)

Dead & Berried (duh!). :o

[COYS]

I still think the Georgetown game was his best. I didn't see much from him last night, at least on the offensive end until mid 2nd half.

This might sound weird to say, but the fact that he disappeared for a while on offense is what I liked so much. He has been so turnover prone, it was wonderful to see him let the game come to him instead of forcing the issue. I think his best fit with the current team (at the moment) is as a strong defender and medium-usage scorer who picks his spots and takes care of the ball rather than as a high-usage playmaker and shot-creator. He did that (almost) to perfection last night in extended minutes on the road in a tough environment. And he stayed within himself even when Duke was down or when he made a mistake (like missing that really easy layup). But the Georgetown game was also an excellent game for him, too.

[Troublemaker]

This might sound weird to say, but the fact that he disappeared for a while on offense is what I liked so much. He has been so turnover prone, it was wonderful to see him let the game come to him instead of forcing the issue. I think his best fit with the current team (at the moment) is as a strong defender and medium-usage scorer who picks his spots and takes care of the ball rather than as a high-usage playmaker and shot-creator. He did that (almost) to perfection last night in extended minutes on the road in a tough environment. And he stayed within himself even when Duke was down or when he made a mistake (like missing that really easy layup). But the Georgetown game was also an excellent game for him, too.

Yes, I'm very happy that Wendell has reduced his usage this season.

Here are all his usage numbers in Duke's 10 games this season, chronologically from Kansas to VaTech: 37, 29, 24, 24, 24, 21, 17, 10, 5, 16

At those lower usage numbers where he's picking his spots to create, he can't help but become more efficient. Keep it up. Embrace being a role player this season, and become a star next season.

[Skydog]

Moore's play was great mainly because of his smothering defense; probably the best defender on the court last night. He was bodying up his man all over the court and still managed to avoid getting driven on. The guys he guarded mostly gave up after a while and just passed the ball to a teammate as if to say "you give it a try, I can't shake this guy." Also he didn't force things offensively and drained critical ft's.

[SouthernDukie]

Doesn’t pretty much everybody get beat off the dribble these days? Basketball has just evolved to where most guards, and even many forwards, are able to get past their initial defender.

It has become a point of real emphasis for the most frequent ballhandlers to learn the necessary skills to enable them to beat their man off the dribble. The guy with the ball has the advantage over his defender. If even Tre Jones gets beaten frequently I think that says a lot.

I fully understand that. But there's also coaching philosophy involved. Do you pressure the ball in the extreme or not? I'm happy with our philosophy to pressure and create either turnovers or make life difficult for entry passes even though that often means getting beat off the dribble. It's a trade off that has benefited Duke for decades now.

Tre is one of the best on the ball defenders we've had in a long time and I'm not at all suggesting he should back off. No way, no how! He and Jordan, along with Wendell were superb last night pressuring the ball. I say keep it up even if it means we give up some points in the paint because of a few drives. I just think it's an interesting stat that a team can be last defensively in allowing points in the paint and at the same time first in blocks.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I fully understand that. But there's also coaching philosophy involved. Do you pressure the ball in the extreme or not? I'm happy with our philosophy to pressure and create either turnovers or make life difficult for entry passes even though that often means getting beat off the dribble. It's a trade off that has benefited Duke for decades now.



But that trade off is less favorable against teams with multiple capable penetrators.

[YmoBeThere]

Was it just me or was that one of the shortest games in recent memory? Maybe an hour and forty minutes?

[-jk]

Was it just me or was that one of the shortest games in recent memory? Maybe an hour and forty minutes?

Very few fouls called.

I don't miss Seth on the sideline.

-jk

[roywhite]

But that trade off is less favorable against teams with multiple capable penetrators.

Perhaps, but this Duke team has multiple capable on-ball defenders. Coach K has options.

[devildeac]

Very few fouls called.

I don't miss Seth on the sideline.

-jk

Or the buzzster on the court :mad:.

[MChambers]

Or the buzzster on the court :mad:.

Mike Young seems like a breath of fresh air after Greenberg and Williams. A class act. Great hire by VT.

[rocketeli]

A conurbation is a region comprising a number of cities, large towns, and other urban areas that, through population growth and physical expansion, have merged to form one continuous urban or industrially developed area.

Hmm, do some people need an alert that a joke or word play is coming up? A little "I'm using the word a little differently to suggest that our wings contain multitudes, or may be just a "jk?" Don't be ashamed to ask for help if you need it.

[OldPhiKap]

Excellent! Thanks! I'll watch the video this afternoon. What beer should I sip while watching? (shameless :o)

But not feckless. To the contrary, you are as full of feck as anyone I know.

[Tripping William]

But not feckless. To the contrary, you are as full of feck as anyone I know.

Fulla sumpin’ (or is that Sumpin’ Sumpin’). :p

[Skydog]

Like many of us, I came to love Duke b-ball for a number of reasons, including its signature tough defense. Then, alas, came the OAD years. Almost too painful to recall...from a defense point of view. I am still working at overcoming my PTSD from the 2015 Miami game in Cameron when they shredded our M2M. One of their guards said after the game, it's easy to beat Duke, just draw them out and blow past them. K added zone to our defense and that helped. But I missed the good ol days.

I need Kedsy and others to either to confirm or refute, but my non-data-supported view is that we have had decent but not great defensive teams since then. Until this year. This year's team plays tough D, nearly always M2M. Again, if the overall stats don't confirm, I will recalibrate what I think my eyeballs are seeing: Tenacious on-ball defense, good lateral quickness, smart switching and good help. This team seems to really want to play good D, and they do [again, eyeball perspective].

My question is: Why do they seem to be more committed to playing tough D this year than before? I have heard that it's because of Tre, but that doesn't seem to fully account.

I would greatly appreciate any insights. Jim Sumner, do you have some inside skinny?


Over the last 20 seasons our defense has ranged from good to great 16 times. Of those 16 we were top a 10 defense eleven times, ranked 11-20th three times and 21st-30th twice. That leaves four bad defensive seasons since 2001: 2012 (79th), 2014 (86th), 2016 (again 86th) and 2017 (47th).

I think our rare downturns in D has much more to do with the type of athletes we have than with coaching. This year Tre, Cassius, Moore & Goldwire are all quick 6'2" - 6'6" players who can hold their own against against any quick guard they face. And Carey at 6'10" is quick enough to stay with any big man (but not any small man as we just saw). . In 2018 & 2019 we weren't always great on perimeter defense but but we easily made up for it with our very mobile rim protectors in the form of Bagley, Carter, Williamson, and White.
So why the bad years? Let's look at them one by one. Bad defensive years since 2001:

2012: Perimeter defenders getting significant time included Rivers, Curry, Dawkins & freshman Cook, need I say more? We also often started both Plumlees - lot of shot blocking but not mobile enough for mtm defense.

2014: Cook, Hood & Sulaimon starting, Thornton off the bench. - In theory there should have been enough quickness to play an effective mtm. In reality we were ranked 236th in 2pt defense. Ouch. Guess this is the exception that proves the rule? I'm not sure what our problem was. IIRC Cook was great offensively but not so much defensively. Hood at 6'8" was a bit tall to handle quick opposing guards. It didn't help that we had not very mobile Parker protecting the rim. Maybe someone can chime in about the problems that year?

2016: Grayson & Kennard got a lot of minutes and both were susceptible to blow-bys. Rim protection: In theory Ingram and Marshall should have provided us with rim protection but we were 176th in 2pt defense. Again it's likely because our big men weren't quick enough to handle pnr's, switching on screens, etc. IIRC Ingram was mobile for his size, but Marshall obviously wasn't. Amile was pretty quick and a good inside defender but he played less than 20% of minutes. And when our big guys got pulled outside we were too exposed in the middle.

2017: Grayson & Kennard & Tatum. Great players all but none had the quickness to stay with quick guards. Our inside protection was mainly limited to Amile. Our other big men Giles/Bolden/Jeter weren't that mobile and struggled to stay on the floor.

tldr vers: Personnel matter, even for the great coach K. And sometime even zone doesn't fix it.

[mk76]

Defense wins games. Really hope K stays with a deep rotation. As Tre stated in his post game interview "we ran them into the ground."
Keep it up fellas!!!

[fathippo]

This might sound weird to say, but the fact that he disappeared for a while on offense is what I liked so much. He has been so turnover prone, it was wonderful to see him let the game come to him instead of forcing the issue. I think his best fit with the current team (at the moment) is as a strong defender and medium-usage scorer who picks his spots and takes care of the ball rather than as a high-usage playmaker and shot-creator. He did that (almost) to perfection last night in extended minutes on the road in a tough environment. And he stayed within himself even when Duke was down or when he made a mistake (like missing that really easy layup). But the Georgetown game was also an excellent game for him, too.

Statistically Georgetown was Wendell's best game, but I thought last night was a better game for his development and maturity. Lately, including the first half against Va Tech, he has been hesitant and the ball sticks with him on offensive. Seems to me like he is thinking about his TO issues and is unsure what to do. He didn't let those missed layups affect him and played hard and was active on offense for the rest of the half. I think he is a great fit for this team especially on defense. His size, strength and quickness allows him to switch and cover most players on the court. If he can provide scoring that would be huge especially when we have a defensive team of Jones, Goldwire, White, and DeLaurier on the court.

[COYS]

Statistically Georgetown was Wendell's best game, but I thought last night was a better game for his development and maturity.

We agree on almost everything so this is merely a small disagreement, but I don’t actually think Georgetown was his best game, statistically, even though he had more points and was roughly equally efficient shooting. He had 7(!?!?) turnovers against Georgetown. That was enough to bring his offensive rating down below 100. Yes, he scored 7 points, but 45% of his possessions ended in turnovers. I actually think his turnovers were a big reason the Georgetown game was closer than it should have been. He was definitely a net positive against Georgetown, but I’ll take 12 efficient points (that easily could’ve been 14 or 16 without some blown chippies) in a slower-paced game over 17 points and 7 turnovers in a faster game.

[hustleplays]

Over the last 20 seasons our defense has ranged from good to great 16 times. Of those 16 we were top a 10 defense eleven times, ranked 11-20th three times and 21st-30th twice. That leaves four bad defensive seasons since 2001: 2012 (79th), 2014 (86th), 2016 (again 86th) and 2017 (47th).

I think our rare downturns in D has much more to do with the type of athletes we have than with coaching. This year Tre, Cassius, Moore & Goldwire are all quick 6'2" - 6'6" players who can hold their own against against any quick guard they face. And Carey at 6'10" is quick enough to stay with any big man (but not any small man as we just saw). . In 2018 & 2019 we weren't always great on perimeter defense but but we easily made up for it with our very mobile rim protectors in the form of Bagley, Carter, Williamson, and White.
So why the bad years? Let's look at them one by one. Bad defensive years since 2001:

2012: Perimeter defenders getting significant time included Rivers, Curry, Dawkins & freshman Cook, need I say more? We also often started both Plumlees - lot of shot blocking but not mobile enough for mtm defense.

2014: Cook, Hood & Sulaimon starting, Thornton off the bench. - In theory there should have been enough quickness to play an effective mtm. In reality we were ranked 236th in 2pt defense. Ouch. Guess this is the exception that proves the rule? I'm not sure what our problem was. IIRC Cook was great offensively but not so much defensively. Hood at 6'8" was a bit tall to handle quick opposing guards. It didn't help that we had not very mobile Parker protecting the rim. Maybe someone can chime in about the problems that year?

2016: Grayson & Kennard got a lot of minutes and both were susceptible to blow-bys. Rim protection: In theory Ingram and Marshall should have provided us with rim protection but we were 176th in 2pt defense. Again it's likely because our big men weren't quick enough to handle pnr's, switching on screens, etc. IIRC Ingram was mobile for his size, but Marshall obviously wasn't. Amile was pretty quick and a good inside defender but he played less than 20% of minutes. And when our big guys got pulled outside we were too exposed in the middle.

2017: Grayson & Kennard & Tatum. Great players all but none had the quickness to stay with quick guards. Our inside protection was mainly limited to Amile. Our other big men Giles/Bolden/Jeter weren't that mobile and struggled to stay on the floor.

tldr vers: Personnel matter, even for the great coach K. And sometime even zone doesn't fix it.

Thanks, Skydog, for your extremely informed and informative analysis. I learned a lot. Given what you know and have shared, I'm wondering how you assess Coach K's response to the personnel he had. Was your analysis mostly predicated upon a M2M defense? You did say that sometimes a zone doesn't fix it. Do you have an opinion as to whether more zone would have helped in the off years?

Which leads me to a very basic question: Is good M2M defense more difficult to learn than some form of a good zone defense? I ask this question, because over the years I osmosed the view that M2M, at least Coach K's versions of it, took several years to learn. And when OAD emerged as a major factor, a key problem was that Coach K's M2M took too long for the OAD players to learn. I don't know if that is actually true or not. And I don't know if sufficiently good zone is easier/quicker to learn. I would very much like to hear what more knowledgeable people think.

[Fish80]

Hmm, do some people need an alert that a joke or word play is coming up? A little "I'm using the word a little differently to suggest that our wings contain multitudes, or may be just a "jk?" Don't be ashamed to ask for help if you need it.

Sorry, I did not mean to offend. When I read your post, at first I thought conurbation was a malicious auto correct. Then I got worried, maybe it is a real word and is some weird sex involving prisoners. Taking a great personal risk to my mental health, I googled conurbation and found a wiki definition which I posted hoping to spare other DBR readers similar mental gymnastics.

Upon reflection, I blame Duke university for this entire fiasco. They did not teach me properly, leaving my vocabulary deficient. I think there’s the making of a class action suit, particularly if the Tar Heel athletes know these words.

[Dukehk]

Is the weird scheduling of the ACC actually forcing coach K to use 10 guys?

I think its really thrown out his mantra of cutting the rotation down to 6-7 guys by ACC play. :D

[camion]

Sorry, I did not mean to offend. When I read your post, at first I thought conurbation was a malicious auto correct. Then I got worried, maybe it is a real word and is some weird sex involving prisoners. Taking a great personal risk to my mental health, I googled conurbation and found a wiki definition which I posted hoping to spare other DBR readers similar mental gymnastics.

Upon reflection, I blame Duke university for this entire fiasco. They did not teach me properly, leaving my vocabulary deficient. I think there’s the making of a class action suit, particularly if the Tar Heel athletes know these words.

Hmm. Following only my own logic here, could a class action suit be called a con-suit-ation?

And if a conurbation encompassed an entire country could it be called a con-urb-nation?



Just passing time until the next game. ;)

[DU82]

Is the weird scheduling of the ACC actually forcing coach K to use 10 guys?

I think its really thrown out his mantra of cutting the rotation down to 6-7 guys by ACC play. :D

I don’t think it’s the schedule. The rotation is being cut to 6-7 players. The difference is we (and the other team) don’t know WHICH 6-7 will be in the rotation each game.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I don’t think it’s the schedule. The rotation is being cut to 6-7 players. The difference is we (and the other team) don’t know WHICH 6-7 will be in the rotation each game.

So if I'm reading you right.....you say 6 or 7 a game....out of a rotating roster of 9-10?

[mkirsh]

Thanks, Skydog, for your extremely informed and informative analysis. I learned a lot. Given what you know and have shared, I'm wondering how you assess Coach K's response to the personnel he had. Was your analysis mostly predicated upon a M2M defense? You did say that sometimes a zone doesn't fix it. Do you have an opinion as to whether more zone would have helped in the off years?

Which leads me to a very basic question: Is good M2M defense more difficult to learn than some form of a good zone defense? I ask this question, because over the years I osmosed the view that M2M, at least Coach K's versions of it, took several years to learn. And when OAD emerged as a major factor, a key problem was that Coach K's M2M took too long for the OAD players to learn. I don't know if that is actually true or not. And I don't know if sufficiently good zone is easier/quicker to learn. I would very much like to hear what more knowledgeable people think.

I'll add my 2 cents here. I think there are several factors, both personnel and scheme related, contributing to strong D the last 2 years.

At the top of the list is Tre Jones. Not only for the ball pressure and steals, which are great, but on top of those he is amazing at guarding PNR. He never dies on screens, always fighting his way OVER (more on that later), and never getting switched up on re-screens or reversals. His ability to negate the PNR really saves the defense from being put into heavy rotation and is a huge key to recent success.

Second is the overall scheme, which is related to Tre fighting over screens. In the past two years I have seen Duke hedging screens a lot less, and instead switching 1-3/4, and on PNR with the 4/5 employing NBA preferred drop coverage, where the ball handler's defender fights OVER the screen and the screener's defender drops back into space to cover both the drive and the roll until the ball handler's defender gets back into position. This simplifies things greatly for the screener's defender and minimizes switches, as long as the ball handler's defender can fight over screens. In addition, the last few years we have played less positional defense (ie drawing charges) and instead encouraged more shot blocking (gone are the days of Mason Plumlee not challenging shots because the coaches didn't want him to pick up fouls). This may be due to officiating changes making charges harder to draw, or may be due to the athletes and skills on the roster, but it is a pretty large change in approach, and it is working.

Third is personnel. There are two components here. First, the last two years we have had really athletic wings who could pressure the ball and passing lanes, and switch 1-4 (Reddish, Barrett, Zion, Jack, Javin last year; replace the first 3 with Stanley and Moore this year) combined with great rim protectors (Zion, Marquisse, Javin, Carey). The second component of personnel is experience, as the last 2 years we have had upperclass bigs (Javin and Jack) who can cover the back line of the defense, communicate to the wings, and make the right rotations.

Putting these together with K pushing the right buttons has lead to great results on D.

One other note that I think is interesting - in comparing last year to this year, while overall results are similar, last year's defense vs this year achieved those results in different ways. Last year Duke finished the year 6th in adj D due to superior FG defense (ranked 14th and 18th in 3P and 2P percentage D, respectively) and tons of blocks (ranked 3rd) all without fouling (8th in FT rate). However, last year's team was pedestrian at steals (ranked 110) and defensive rebounding (ranked 235). Conversely, this year's team is ranked 10th overall so far, lead by rankings of 37th in steals and 38th in defensive rebounding, but only 59th and 150th in 3P and 2P field goal percentage, respectively, and fouls a lot more (ranked 135), but still is strong blocking shots (ranked 22). Said another way, last years teams heavily contested shots, compared to this years team that plays for steals and grabs rebounds. (note all stats from Torvik's website (http://www.barttorvik.com/#))

[Kedsy]

Do you have an opinion as to whether more zone would have helped in the off years?

I'm not Skydog, but playing a zone well is not nearly as easy as some people make it out to be. You need the right personnel and they have to know how to play it. There are players who play better defense in a zone (e.g., Marvin Bagley) and others that wouldn't be able to play good defense no matter what scheme is employed (e.g., Jabari Parker, Luke Kennard).


Which leads me to a very basic question: Is good M2M defense more difficult to learn than some form of a good zone defense? I ask this question, because over the years I osmosed the view that M2M, at least Coach K's versions of it, took several years to learn. And when OAD emerged as a major factor, a key problem was that Coach K's M2M took too long for the OAD players to learn. I don't know if that is actually true or not. And I don't know if sufficiently good zone is easier/quicker to learn. I would very much like to hear what more knowledgeable people think.

Coach K has stated that he chose to simplify his version of M2M defense to make it easier for young teams to learn it. That said, if he wanted to teach a good zone to those same young teams, he'd undoubtedly have to simplify that as well.

Of much more importance to whether or not a team plays good defense is personnel. How committed the players are to playing great D and how physically capable they are of doing so at this level.

A few years ago, the standard "wisdom" around here was that freshman-dominated teams weren't capable of playing good defense. Based on the evidence, that's clearly untrue. Including this year's team, of the five Duke teams in the Pomeroy era (since and including the 2002 season) who have the highest percentage of minutes played by freshmen, four out of five have been top 11 defenses (according to Pomeroy, anyway). Same for the 7th "youngest" and the 10th. Meanwhile, of the five Duke teams in the era that were outside Pomeroy's top 25 on defense, only one was among the five youngest teams (two in the youngest 10).



Year %frosh Pom dRank
2018 67.5% 9
2019 61.0% 6
2015 50.0% 11
2016 46.8% 86
2020 44.1% 4
2003 37.3% 15
2007 36.5% 6
2017 33.5% 47
2006 32.5% 16
2008 26.4% 7
2012 23.8% 79
2013 23.6% 26
2014 19.8% 86
2004 15.8% 3
2010 14.8% 5
2005 12.3% 2
2011 10.9% 9
2009 10.5% 28
2002 9.7% 1


Looking at the above table, five of the "youngest" seven were top 11 defenses (six of the seven were top 15) and five of the "oldest" six were top 10. It's the middle six that on aggregate had the worst defenses -- try making a generalization out of that.

Bottom line is good defensive players play good defense, no matter how old they are. I'm sure they get better at defense as they get more experienced, but that's not the most important factor.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I'm not Skydog, but playing a zone well is not nearly as easy as some people make it out to be. You need the right personnel and they have to know how to play it. There are players who play better defense in a zone (e.g., Marvin Bagley) and others that wouldn't be able to play good defense no matter what scheme is employed (e.g., Jabari Parker, Luke Kennard).
.

This point I totally agree with. That said, it is easier to play mediocre zone than it is to play mediocre man....put another way, mediocre zone hurts you, mediocre man kills you. A zone with 1,2 weak links is less harmful than M2M with 1,2 weak links.

When I've advocated for Duke to go zone in the past, it's not because they would be a good or great zone team...it's when they've been a terrible M2M team.

[Billy Dat]

2014: Cook, Hood & Sulaimon starting, Thornton off the bench. - In theory there should have been enough quickness to play an effective mtm. In reality we were ranked 236th in 2pt defense. Ouch. Guess this is the exception that proves the rule? I'm not sure what our problem was. IIRC Cook was great offensively but not so much defensively. Hood at 6'8" was a bit tall to handle quick opposing guards. It didn't help that we had not very mobile Parker protecting the rim. Maybe someone can chime in about the problems that year?

I always cite this as the most disappointing Duke team of my fandom (1991-present) in terms of under-performing relative to talent. Aside from the factors you mention, this was the year that K's brother died right around Christmas and he has said that it really knocked him back. I don't think he was at his best that year, and that's one reason why I think the team under-performed.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I always cite this as the most disappointing Duke team of my fandom (1991-present) in terms of under-performing relative to talent. Aside from the factors you mention, this was the year that K's brother died right around Christmas and he has said that it really knocked him back. I don't think he was at his best that year, and that's one reason why I think the team under-performed.

When Rodney Hood is voted the team's best defender, you basically have the reason right there. IIRC, that game against Vermont in Cameron was foreshadowing for the whole season defensively.

P.S. Recover well, Rodney. Hope your jumper isn't impacted by the injury.

[DukieInBrasil]

Anybody gonna post a Phase 2 post? I recall somebody posted a roster of who was gonna do which ones when, and that i was not nominated to do Phase 2.

[UrinalCake]

2014 was definitely a disappointment, in addition to wasting Jabari’s year (he will always go down as one of one of our most underappreciated players due to how the season ended IMO) and Hood’s, we also had Michael Gbinije on the bench who seemingly would have addressed our wing defensive issues but he never got any playing time and then subsequently transferred and blew up.

Enjoying the discussion on team defensive styles. In 2017 even though our defensive efficiency metrics were good, we always left the corner threes and the middle of the lane wide open and it felt like any team who could exploit that would simply have their way.

[jimsumner]

2014 was definitely a disappointment, in addition to wasting Jabari’s year (he will always go down as one of one of our most underappreciated players due to how the season ended IMO) and Hood’s, we also had Michael Gbinije on the bench who seemingly would have addressed our wing defensive issues but he never got any playing time and then subsequently transferred and blew up.

Enjoying the discussion on team defensive styles. In 2017 even though our defensive efficiency metrics were good, we always left the corner threes and the middle of the lane wide open and it felt like any team who could exploit that would simply have their way.

Gbinijie was on the bench at Duke in 2012 (Rivers' season) and playing for Syracuse in 2014.

[robed deity]

When Rodney Hood is voted the team's best defender, you basically have the reason right there. IIRC, that game against Vermont in Cameron was foreshadowing for the whole season defensively.

P.S. Recover well, Rodney. Hope your jumper isn't impacted by the injury.

Jabari Parker was and is an immensely talented offensive player. The same can not be said for his defense.

[Skydog]

Thanks, Skydog, for your extremely informed and informative analysis. I learned a lot. Given what you know and have shared, I'm wondering how you assess Coach K's response to the personnel he had. Was your analysis mostly predicated upon a M2M defense? You did say that sometimes a zone doesn't fix it. Do you have an opinion as to whether more zone would have helped in the off years?

Which leads me to a very basic question: Is good M2M defense more difficult to learn than some form of a good zone defense? I ask this question, because over the years I osmosed the view that M2M, at least Coach K's versions of it, took several years to learn. And when OAD emerged as a major factor, a key problem was that Coach K's M2M took too long for the OAD players to learn. I don't know if that is actually true or not. And I don't know if sufficiently good zone is easier/quicker to learn. I would very much like to hear what more knowledgeable people think.

I think Kedsy's data disproves the theory that good mtm defense takes several seasons to learn and has been killed off by OAD. IMO mtm defense is more dependent on the personnel available than on than the number of seasons a team plays together. Most years we have personnel that can fit right into into a great mtm with the right teacher (K, of course). But occasionally our personnel just can't pull it off due to a lack of lateral quickness, their size/build, or maybe even their desire to put out the considerable effort good mtm requires. In those seasons K has had to resort to playing zone. That of course goes against every fiber of his being and it hasn't worked out great.

As far as relative difficulty of learning zone vs mtm? As others have said it depends on the proficiency level you are talking about. A rudimentary zone can be learned in a couple of practices while basic mtm is more complicated since players have to coordinate switching, learning when to go over and under picks, how to work together on pnr's, etc. But great zone? There are so many principles/wrinkles involved I'm thinking it is likely the hardest defensive scheme to learn of all. Are there many coaches/teams known for their great zone these days? I honestly don't know. Maybe we should ask Boeheim. Because he used to.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

As far as relative difficulty of learning zone vs mtm? As others have said it depends on the proficiency level you are talking about. A rudimentary zone can be learned in a couple of practices while basic mtm is more complicated since players have to coordinate switching, learning when to go over and under picks, how to work together on pnr's, etc. But great zone? There are so many principles/wrinkles involved I'm thinking it is likely the hardest defensive scheme to learn of all. Are there many coaches/teams known for their great zone these days? I honestly don't know. Maybe we should ask Boeheim. Because he used to.

This is true above. As analogy, what you'll see in adult rec leagues, good ones where the players all played HS or college ball, is a decent amount of zone. No one's trying to play "great zone" in these leagues, they are more interested in offense and trying to cover up defensive match up weaknesses. Playing great MTM requires athleticism at 5 spots in todays game and a passion and desire to do so. When Duke has gone to zone, and more to the point, when DBR has called for Duke to try a zone...are on Duke teams that simply don't have the goods for great MTM. Sometimes personnel dictates that your strength is offense and a zone is the best way to keep your defense respectable.

And as Skydog said...great zone is a long process...whether it be Boeheim's zones at Cuse, or variations of great 1-3-1 or other trap presses.

[Kedsy]

As analogy, what you'll see in adult rec leagues, good ones where the players all played HS or college ball, is a decent amount of zone. No one's trying to play "great zone" in these leagues, they are more interested in offense and trying to cover up defensive match up weaknesses.

I don't know. I play in a few "organized pickup" games in which almost all the players played high school or college ball. We play exclusively M2M.

In one of those games a few years ago, we used to play some zone. As you say, it seemed like a good way to hide a defensive matchup weakness. But now we never play it, because without practice, we aren't capable of playing even halfway decent zone. Just like with M2M, if you have one or two weak links in a zone, the whole defense malfunctions.

[mkirsh]

I don't know. I play in a few "organized pickup" games in which almost all the players played high school or college ball. We play exclusively M2M.

In one of those games a few years ago, we used to play some zone. As you say, it seemed like a good way to hide a defensive matchup weakness. But now we never play it, because without practice, we aren't capable of playing even halfway decent zone. Just like with M2M, if you have one or two weak links in a zone, the whole defense malfunctions.

It's funny. In my experience, no one EVER plays zone in regular pick up games. You would get ridiculed out of the gym if you suggested it (much like taking a charge). But when I play in leagues with clocks and refs, teams seem to play zone at least half the time. Don't have a good reason for this but it's what I've observed.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

It's funny. In my experience, no one EVER plays zone in regular pick up games. You would get ridiculed out of the gym if you suggested it (much like taking a charge). But when I play in leagues with clocks and refs, teams seem to play zone at least half the time. Don't have a good reason for this but it's what I've observed.

My experience mirrors yours. It's a lot easier to just say "man up" or "I got ball" than "let's go 2x3, I'll play middle."

Also, pick up ball and street ball is more about being able to beat your man.

Rec league, we won a nice big trophy with the box and one.

[TruBlu]

Speaking as the last man picked (it is hard learning how to play basketball - other than shooting - when your only basketball goal within 5 miles is on a telephone pole in the middle of a corn field), I have no idea what defense we played. And, yes, I was terrible at whatever defense it was. But my opponents, and occasionally a teammate, hated my defense. Blood was sometimes involved.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I don't know. I play in a few "organized pickup" games in which almost all the players played high school or college ball. We play exclusively M2M.

In one of those games a few years ago, we used to play some zone. As you say, it seemed like a good way to hide a defensive matchup weakness. But now we never play it, because without practice, we aren't capable of playing even halfway decent zone. Just like with M2M, if you have one or two weak links in a zone, the whole defense malfunctions.

Oh yeah the zone is there to hide a defensive weakness, or in rec leagues, a lack of depth, which is a weakness. Or lack of quickness...talent....whatever you're lacking, a zone can disguise it better. I've never played it in any setting where there weren't organized teams in a league, with officials and clock and scorekeepers and all of that. We played more MTM, but went zone at times for the reasons above. It's much less tiring to play average zone, and you get beat less often than you do in poor MTM. Never in any kind of pick up.

[Kedsy]

It's much less tiring to play average zone, and you get beat less often than you do in poor MTM.

When I play in a 2-3 zone, I tend to play up top. Personally, I find it more tiring because you should be constantly moving in a zone, often across distance after a pass around the perimeter. In m2m, you just have to follow your man around. You don't have to move much if he doesn't move much; you can move slowly if he moves slowly. And it's easier to deny your man the ball than it is in a zone. And it's easier to box out for a rebound than it is in a zone.

As far as getting beat, that's probably true off the dribble. And it's definitely true in a pnr situation. But in a poorly executed zone you get beat all the time by wide open shots even if you're not giving up layups. I've always thought the idea that a zone is easier to play and/or more effective than m2m is a myth. When it works, the main reason often appears to be that the opponent just isn't used to playing against the zone and doesn't know how to play offense against the zone.

[mkirsh]

When I play in a 2-3 zone, I tend to play up top. Personally, I find it more tiring because you should be constantly moving in a zone, often across distance after a pass around the perimeter. In m2m, you just have to follow your man around. You don't have to move much if he doesn't move much; you can move slowly if he moves slowly. And it's easier to deny your man the ball than it is in a zone. And it's easier to box out for a rebound than it is in a zone.

As far as getting beat, that's probably true off the dribble. And it's definitely true in a pnr situation. But in a poorly executed zone you get beat all the time by wide open shots even if you're not giving up layups. I've always thought the idea that a zone is easier to play and/or more effective than m2m is a myth. When it works, the main reason often appears to be that the opponent just isn't used to playing against the zone and doesn't know how to play offense against the zone.

Agree, but will also add that zones can be good for certain matchups - zones can be effective at neutralizing teams that like to attack off the dribble but are not great at hitting spot up shots. Or zone traps can be effective against teams without good ball handlers.

[kAzE]

When I play in a 2-3 zone, I tend to play up top. Personally, I find it more tiring because you should be constantly moving in a zone, often across distance after a pass around the perimeter. In m2m, you just have to follow your man around. You don't have to move much if he doesn't move much; you can move slowly if he moves slowly. And it's easier to deny your man the ball than it is in a zone. And it's easier to box out for a rebound than it is in a zone.

I think the 2-3 is the most taxing on the two players on the top of the zone. Those are usually your best defenders. The corner players kind of get a breather. I played the corner in a 2-3 in a few rec leagues, being a relatively weak defender, and I much preferred that to chasing the other team's 2-guard around in M2M.

[CDu]

I think the 2-3 is the most taxing on the two players on the top of the zone. Those are usually your best defenders. The corner players kind of get a breather. I played the corner in a 2-3 in a few rec leagues, being a relatively weak defender, and I much preferred that to chasing the other team's 2-guard around in M2M.

It depends. In a good 2-3 zone, the two “forwards” (the outer two of the “3”) move easily as much as as the two up top. It is only in a lazy zone (where the forwards aren’t actively supporting out to the 3pt line) that the guards do all the work. Which is, of course, the case in your average rec league.

But in practice, the strong side forward should be as active as the strong side guard, and the weakside forward as active as the weakside guard. Only the center has a limited range of responsibility, generally from block to block and maybe up to the free throw line.

I would also say that man to man - if well organized - is as taxing as a well-organized zone. It requires constant communication and movement, even if you are off the ball. Man to man is only really easier physically at the pickup/rec level, and really only easier for the guards. For the forwards and centers, they probably find the zone easier physically. But that is more a statement about the quality of the defense being played and the cohesion of the offense being faced.

[hustleplays]

It depends. In a good 2-3 zone, the two “forwards” (the outer two of the “3”) move easily as much as as the two up top. It is only in a lazy zone (where the forwards aren’t actively supporting out to the 3pt line) that the guards do all the work. Which is, of course, the case in your average rec league.

But in practice, the strong side forward should be as active as the strong side guard, and the weakside forward as active as the weakside guard. Only the center has a limited range of responsibility, generally from block to block and maybe up to the free throw line.

I would also say that man to man - if well organized - is as taxing as a well-organized zone. It requires constant communication and movement, even if you are off the ball. Man to man is only really easier physically at the pickup/rec level, and really only easier for the guards. For the forwards and centers, they probably find the zone easier physically. But that is more a statement about the quality of the defense being played and the cohesion of the offense being faced.

So, I'm torn...I learned a ton about M2m vs zone from our erudite posters. Thank you Skydog for your intricate analysis of the relationship between our players and our schemes, Kedsy for your stats that refute the correlation between our young teams and poor D, and MKirsh for your identifying Tre, the particular M2M scheme and our overall personnel as ways to understand what we have seen with Duke D over the past years.

On the other hand, I humbly and magnanimously want to share the Cameron Crazie "It's All Your Fault!" award with HereBeforeCoachK for delving into Rec League analogy land. Honorable Mention goes to MtDevil, TruBlu,KAzE, CDU and, drum roll, please, to Kedsy, for offering non-data driven anecdotal, first person, and compelling, experience on the pros and cons, the benefits and challenges, of playing M2M vs. zone at merely mortal levels. Kedsy, what unempirically happens here, stays here, so not to worry.

If this Rec League conversation continues, I am tempted to post a poll on Rec League M2M vs. Zone, so you have been warned.

Full disclosure, thanks for contributing! I have learned a lot, and I've really enjoyed your recounting and drawing inferences from your rec league experiences.

Perhaps like you, this hiatus between real Duke-type games is very long, and it's fun to chat about basketball at all levels.

Finally, I would like to say that in my rec league experience, we cunningly disguised whether we were playing M2M or zone by calling it a matchup zone. Yep, someone was clueless about which person or area he was defending and the next person tried to help. Our poor opponents didn't know what kind of defense we were deploying.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!

[HereBeforeCoachK]

When I play in a 2-3 zone, I tend to play up top. Personally, I find it more tiring because you should be constantly moving in a zone, often across distance after a pass around the perimeter. In m2m, you just have to follow your man around. You don't have to move much if he doesn't move much; you can move slowly if he moves slowly. And it's easier to deny your man the ball than it is in a zone. And it's easier to box out for a rebound than it is in a zone.

As far as getting beat, that's probably true off the dribble. And it's definitely true in a pnr situation. But in a poorly executed zone you get beat all the time by wide open shots even if you're not giving up layups. I've always thought the idea that a zone is easier to play and/or more effective than m2m is a myth. When it works, the main reason often appears to be that the opponent just isn't used to playing against the zone and doesn't know how to play offense against the zone.

The first part is absolutely true, unless you are playing a poor team M2M. The second is a myth most of the time. Coaches don't ever say "we went man because we needed some rest" or "went man because we were in foul trouble."