Vernon Carey Jr.

[DevilYouKnow]

Question #1: Is the best Duke big man since Shelden? or maybe even since Boozer or Elton? (I don't consider Bagley to be a true big man)
I like his game a whole lot. What he did to the purported best big man in the country, Azubuike, was unreal. Love this guy.

Question #2: Does he have stamina issues? I see Coach k subbing him out a lot, particularly late in games when we might need him. Are they short term issues? or long term?

I love a lot of guys on this team, but he's the most impressive, IMO.

[uh_no]

Question #1: Is the best Duke big man since Shelden? or maybe even since Boozer or Elton? (I don't consider Bagley to be a true big man)
I like his game a whole lot. What he did to the purported best big man in the country, Azubuike, was unreal. Love this guy.


that's a bit of a no true scottsman argument.




Question #2: Does he have stamina issues? I see Coach k subbing him out a lot, particularly late in games when we might need him. Are they short term issues? or long term?


We were spoiled with the amount that the guys the past couple of years have been able to play, but it's not often that freshman big men can put in huge minutes. I recall someone did an analysis at one point, but going past 25 minutes was pretty rare for most of K's career. Okafor averaged <30, for instance.

[BLPOG]

Question #1: Is the best Duke big man since Shelden? or maybe even since Boozer or Elton? (I don't consider Bagley to be a true big man)
I like his game a whole lot. What he did to the purported best big man in the country, Azubuike, was unreal. Love this guy.

Question #2: Does he have stamina issues? I see Coach k subbing him out a lot, particularly late in games when we might need him. Are they short term issues? or long term?

I love a lot of guys on this team, but he's the most impressive, IMO.

Re: #2, my opinion based on observing him during the Winthrop game is that he does have stamina issues. There are times when he looks tired and unaware, even disinterested regarding what is going on while playing defense, and he won't necessarily hustle down court if someone makes a steal and a break for the basket.

He's not the only one, either. Matt Hurt pretty clearly has some stamina issues as well (unless I what I observed was caused by some confounding factor, like being sick). He was hustling, but was obviously gassed at multiple points in the second half. I mentioned it to someone during the Winthrop game, saying Coach should really have taken him out for a rest after the last stoppage, at which point his man got the ball and Hurt basically just fell over on court.

[Bob Green]

The early returns on Vernon Carey indicate he is very good. It is going to be entertaining to watch him play this season. However, the season is young so I will hold off on the labels for the time being.

[kAzE]

Question #1: Is the best Duke big man since Shelden? or maybe even since Boozer or Elton? (I don't consider Bagley to be a true big man)
I like his game a whole lot. What he did to the purported best big man in the country, Azubuike, was unreal. Love this guy.

Question #2: Does he have stamina issues? I see Coach k subbing him out a lot, particularly late in games when we might need him. Are they short term issues? or long term?

I love a lot of guys on this team, but he's the most impressive, IMO.

Wait, why is Bagley not a big man? His best position in the NBA is center . . . he should have played center at Duke, but he was in the same class as Wendell Carter.

It's still too early for me to make a call on Vernon Carey. I need to see more games.

But the answer (who I am shocked that no one has mentioned yet) is Zion Williamson, the best Duke big man of all time. Laettner #2, Elton Brand #3.

[JasonEvans]

Question #1: Is the best Duke big man since Shelden? or maybe even since Boozer or Elton? (I don't consider Bagley to be a true big man)
I like his game a whole lot. What he did to the purported best big man in the country, Azubuike, was unreal. Love this guy.

I'm confused why Bagley would not be a true big man. That seems pretty arbitrary. Also, Zion was a big big man just a year ago.

I would also point out that Jahlil Okafor was pretty darn dominant in the post for Duke just five short years ago.

Here is how their stats match up through 9 games played:

Okafor - 18.0PPG, 9.3 RPG, 1.7BPG, 65.4%FG
Carey - 19.2PPG, 9.7RPG, 2.4BPG, 60.0%FG

I would love for Carey to have the same kind of impact and season as Oak did!

[Bob Green]

But the answer (who I am shocked that no one has mentioned yet) is Zion Williamson, the best Duke big man of all time. Laettner #2, Elton Brand #3.

Pure recency bias. Laettner was clearly better. An argument could be made for Mike Lewis and Randy Denton as well.

Williamson is the most athletic but not the best.

[kAzE]

Pure recency bias. Laettner was clearly better. An argument could be made for Mike Lewis and Randy Denton as well.

Williamson is the most athletic but not the best.

Hard disagree. Zion was the most athletic and possibly the most skilled. I'll take Zion at any level over Laettner, college or NBA. He's a much more versatile player, and able to affect to game in several more ways than Laettner could.

Laettner's best season at Duke: 21.5 points, 7.9 rebounds 2.0 assists, 2.1 steals, 0.9 blocks, 3.3 turnovers, 57.5% FG

Zion's freshman season at Duke: 22.6 points, 8.9 rebounds, 2.1 assists, 2.1 steals, 1.8 blocks, 2.4 turnovers, 68.0% FG

He's better in every statistical category as a 18 year freshman than Laettner as a senior, and those stats are somewhat brought down because he only played 30 seconds in the shoe explosion game.

[Bob Green]

I'll take Zion at any level over Laettner, college or NBA.

When Zion leads Duke to back-to-back National Championships, get back with me.

[crimsondevil]

that's a bit of a no true scottsman argument.

Because his grass isn't green enough? :cool:

Agree, though, excluding Bagley and Williamson is iffy, and too early to say, anyways, vs Okafor, etc.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Can the thread title have a little context added? I had a heart palpitation seeing a thread title with just his name...

[kAzE]

When Zion leads Duke to back-to-back National Championships, get back with me.

Ok, I guess by your standards, Tyler Hansbrough is a way better basketball player than J.J. Redick. :rolleyes:

[Bob Green]

Ok, I guess by your standards, Tyler Hansbrough is a way better basketball player than J.J. Redick. :rolleyes:

We can agree to disagree that’s no problem. I believe Laettner was better.

[uh_no]

Hard disagree. Zion was the most athletic and possibly the most skilled. I'll take Zion at any level over Laettner, college or NBA. He's a much more versatile player, and able to affect to game in several more ways than Laettner could.

I can't speak much for laettner from an eye test perspective, as I was in daipers when he was at duke. Zion won national player of the year as a freshman. while missing 6 games in the prime of the season. Zion was better as a freshman than laettner ever was in almost all aspects. The only exceptions I see are FT shooting, and by his senior year, Laettner was a better 3pt shooter. Zion had more points, blocks, rebounds, assists, FG%, usage, steals, and a lower foul and turnover rate.

Numbers to numbers, Zion was better as a freshman than Laettner was in ANY year.

[kAzE]

We can agree to disagree that’s no problem. I believe Laettner was better.

Sure, reasonable people can disagree. I just find the whole "he's better because he won a title" argument silly. I think if you give Zion 4 years at Duke and a couple of years playing with Grant Hill and Bobby Hurley, he probably wins at least 2 titles, and probably 4 national player of the year awards.

[Bob Green]

Numbers to numbers, Zion was better as a freshman than Laettner was in ANY year.

How about leadership? The will to win? Refuse to lose?

I’ll take Laettner every day of the week and twice on national championship night.

[SkyBrickey]

Here's my optimistic view on Mr. Carey.

I think his stamina will continue to improve as the season goes on - it's a bit of an issue now. And his teammates seem to be gaining confidence in playing through him more and more on offense. So I think his offensive numbers are only going to get better.

We seem to be at our best when he gets lots of touches leading to easy scores or a collapsing defense with a kick-out to an open shooter. During the MSU game, we had the patience to make 4-5 passes around the perimeter until Carey could seal and we had a good passing angle in - it was beautiful basketball and I don't see us going away from it. We played through Okafor and Brand in a similar way in the past - our two best back-to-the-basket scorers over the past 30 years IMO (maybe Boozer belongs there too...). Not coincidentally, the '99 and '15 teams were also two of our greatest teams.

I think Carey will see more double teams coming up, but he's handled them very well so far. He doesn't sit on the ball or even hesitate at all. He makes a quick move to the rim or he kicks it out - that destroys a double team. He will need to continue to knock down free throws -- 70%+ which I think he can do.

I respect those of you withholding judgement. He's still a work in progress. But what I already see is probably the best big man in the country who could be NPOY by March. He's an automatic double-double if he plays 20 minutes. He's a much better defender than his reputation coming in. But it's not just his talent. It's also the fact that he's got good players surrounding him who can get him the ball in a position to score or punish the other team if they focus too much attention on him. And he's got the GOAT drawing it all up...

[mpj96]

He's had a good start but it's waaay to early to start putting him above recent greats: Carter, Okafor, MBIII, Zion.

So many reasons to agree w Bob Green vs. kAzE. Take Z all you want. Laetner was not as good as Z as a Frosh but (if such a thing were possible) it would be foolish to swap Z for L in the 91 and 92 seasons. L was the best for Duke in 91 and 92, possibly ever.

[kAzE]

Pure recency bias. Laettner was clearly better. An argument could be made for Mike Lewis and Randy Denton as well.

Williamson is the most athletic but not the best.


How about leadership? The will to win? Refuse to lose?

I’ll take Laettner every day of the week and twice on national championship night.

Those are better arguments. All I'm saying is, you cannot dismiss Zion being mentioned here out of "pure recency bias," and emphatically say "Laettner was clearly better," because a good argument can be made for both guys.

But we're still using different measuring sticks. Laettner was an incredible college player, one of the greatest ever. But Zion is on a different planet in terms of talent. Let me put it this way: Zion is the most talented Duke big man ever, and it's not close.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, I'll stop now :)

[Bob Green]

Let me put it this way: Zion is the most talented Duke big man ever, and it's not close.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, I'll stop now :)

I can agree with that wording.

And I will also stop.

[Devilwin]

Pure recency bias. Laettner was clearly better. An argument could be made for Mike Lewis and Randy Denton as well.

Williamson is the most athletic but not the best.

Ah, Mike and Randy. Remember them well. Two of the ACC's best of all time.

[azzefkram]

Carey is up there but I'd be hard pressed to name him best. I'd like to see him finish better around the basket (63% on close 2s is pretty weak sauce). His rebounding and defense are better than Oak's in the early going. Not sure how he compares with Carter since I think we didn't get to see all Carter could do since he spent much of the season playing next to MBIII. Same problem to lesser extent with respect to MBIII. Zion defies classification.

Comparing players from different eras is a tad problematic so Laettner vs Carey (or Zion) is tough to do.

Regardless of how you feel, I, for one, am pleasantly surprised at how good Carey is. I expected a budget Okafor. Carey does not have the low post game that Jah had but he's a bit more diverse with his O and seems better on D.

[VA_BDevil]

An argument could be made for Mike Lewis and Randy Denton as well.

and G-man

[DevilYouKnow]

OP here.

I guess I should clarify by "big man" I mean more of a traditional, back-to-the-basket center. Bagley and Zion were more of an all around freaks than traditional centers. For traditional centers, I look to Wendell Carter, Brand, Carey Jr., Shelden, Boozer, Gminski, Denton, etc...

And yes, I watched Randy Denton live. He was very good, but not as good as the others mentioned, IMO.

[BigDuke6]

I'll just add, I never recall the other 4 players giving the ball to Laettner and stand back and watch. We never expected him to carry the team or had to depend on him solely. We never gave him the ball and said we need you to go one on one and clear the lane out for him. He was as versatile a big man you could ask for. Was he an athletic freak? No, but he was highly skilled, driven basketball player that needed to be guarded anywhere on the court. He came up clutch in some big games. When the game was on the line, the ball was in his hands. 27 years ago Laettner made an iconic basketball play, in an iconic moment, in a perfect offensive performance that has not been forgotten by every college basketball fan that was living at the time. A simple question, do you think Zion made any play that could be remembered in the same way?

That's why I think when you say "best" you have to look at other things besides numbers. Can't deny that Zion's numbers were better, but people still consider Laettner the best, and most accomplished collegiate basketball player ever. Is Zion in that conversation? Personally, I don't think so.

[uh_no]

How about leadership? The will to win? Refuse to lose?

I’ll take Laettner every day of the week and twice on national championship night.

hard to know. would have to loved to see what zion could have been with a couple years in the K school of leadership.

[jv001]

The two best college basketball players that I was blessed to watch were: 1) David Thompson 2) Christian Laettner. The most talented college basketball player was Zion Williamson. It's going to be hard to convince most older Duke fans that a one and done player is the best Duke player ever. I guess we could ask Dickie V. No, let's not. :cool:

GoDuke!

PS; The more I think about it, DT was probably as talented as Zion. GoDuke!

[kAzE]

OP here.

I guess I should clarify by "big man" I mean more of a traditional, back-to-the-basket center. Bagley and Zion were more of an all around freaks than traditional centers. For traditional centers, I look to Wendell Carter, Brand, Carey Jr., Shelden, Boozer, Gminski, Denton, etc...

And yes, I watched Randy Denton live. He was very good, but not as good as the others mentioned, IMO.

Even with the "back to the basket center" clarification in mind, I still have to think that Bagley should be in there. Yes, he was able to face up and drive, but his main source of offense was still posting up, and we frequently gave it to him in the post, where he was unstoppable. He had great touch going left or right with his back to the basket, and even if he missed, he was getting the offensive board and dunking it before the defenders could even jump once.

So my answer would be Bagley, but if we're excluding him for some reason, I like the all around game of Wendell Carter more than Okafor, Williams, and Boozer as the best "back to the basket traditional center" since Elton Brand. However, I think Okafor probably has the best overall case with his dominance on offense, even though his defense was suspect.

If Vernon continues his current trajectory and also improves, he could be that guy. But I'd probably still take Bagley over him, he was just such a game changer with his quickness.

Lastly, I think Mason Plumlee at least needs a mention in this thread. That guy was a great 4 year player.

[Dukehk]

I still remember a time when we were starved for bigs and people were against Wojo being our "big man coach".

What a long way we have come :cool:

[budwom]

Reminds me of that reasonably long period of time in which we missed on a whole bunch of PF targets...Jerry Gee (?), Jeffries, Patterson (?), must have been six or seven top priority guys we just couldn't woo at that position.
K seems to have figured that out.

[SkyBrickey]

Anybody else agree with me that he COULD be NPOY with the trajectory he is on?

Nwora: 22 ppg, 8 rpg
Carey: 19 ppg, 10 rpg

Yes, he is a work in progress like our whole team, but it feels like he's getting stronger every game.

[Jeffrey]

The two best college basketball players that I was blessed to watch were: 1) David Thompson 2) Christian Laettner.

Are you only addressing the ACC? Otherwise,
I definitely have Bill Walton on my list.

I think Christian was Duke’s best. In the ACC, I’d add Sampson and Bias to the second line. Thompson was in his own league.

The best of college hoops... Thompson vs. Walton.

[jimsumner]

Are you only addressing the ACC? Otherwise,
I definitely have Bill Walton on my list.

I think Christian was Duke’s best. In the ACC, I’d add Sampson and Bias to the second line. Thompson was in his own league.

The best of college hoops... Thompson vs. Walton.

Lew Alcindor/Kareem is the best college basketball player ever, IMO. The debate starts at number 2. And Oscar Robertson belongs on the short list.


To the broader question, it's pretty hard to compare a one-and-done with someone who played 3 or 4 years in college.

And before we go too far down the comparing-freshmen-seasons-rabbit hole, recall that when guys like Thompson and Laettner and Len Bias and Ralph Sampson were seniors, so were many of their cohorts. Just a different game.

So, defining terms is very important in a debate of this type.

[Jeffrey]

Lew Alcindor/Kareem is the best college basketball player ever, IMO. The debate starts at number 2. And Oscar Robertson belongs on the short list.

Many told me the same, but it was before my time. Kareem immediately before. IIRC, weren’t Alcindor’s and Walton’s records rather close statistically?

[Troublemaker]

Vernon has a few separating factors that I love.

As I've mentioned before, he's a very wide target and very strong to hold position inside, which makes entry passes easier. Not all of the recent bigs were easy to get the ball to. Despite average wingspan, he reacts quickly and blocks shots (2.4/gm or a 9.1% block rate if you go by the advanced stat). Again, you can't say the same for some of the recent bigs. Finally, he seems to have a nice feel for passing even though it hasn't shown up in his assists yet. He can keep his head up when he has the ball, identify where the help is coming from, and pass to the open teammate, including some nice quick-reacting touch passes / two-man game. Again, you can't say that about all the recent bigs. He's a force on both the offensive *and* defensive boards. Once again, not something you can say about all the recent bigs.

So, yeah, we'll have to see if he can keep this up against ACC competition game in and game out, but there's a pretty easy case to be made here that he's better than many of the previous star Duke bigs.

I'll say that he's on pace to be my 4th-favorite big in the K era behind Christian, Elton, and Zion. Obviously high praise from this Duke fan.

[Jim3k]

Pure recency bias. Laettner was clearly better. An argument could be made for Mike Lewis and Randy Denton as well.

Williamson is the most athletic but not the best.

Recognizing that the OP said "since Shelden" established a time limit, Bob's adding Lewis and Denton, removes that limit and takes it to the "all-time" best big man rating. If we are doing that, we need to add Mike Gminski to the discussion. And even before that, one might look at Jay Buckley's senior season in 1963-64.

These pre-Krzyzewski bigs did not play the same game, usually working out of zones, so their agility and size had a different overall impact. But to say Mike was an aircraft carrier (per Al McGuire) or that Jay was a stiff who had Hack Tison (and Jeff Mullins) next to him, doesn't really provide full credit to these guys in their time. High flying was not the game for them, but they were very effective in doing what their coaching staffs wanted.

The main point here is not to forget our really good big men who played over the years--even Carroll Youngkin and Doug Kistler who were on the pre-Heyman team which put Duke in the spotlight under Vic Bubas. Some might consider their 1959-60 team as Duke's breakthrough to national basketball relevance. All that has value in weighing these players' relative value to Duke.

[jimsumner]

Many told me the same, but it was before my time. Kareem immediately before. IIRC, weren’t Alcindor’s and Walton’s records rather close statistically?

Alcindor/Jabbar-26.4 ppg, 15.5 rbg, 63.9fg%

Walton-20.3 ppg, 15.7 rpg, 65.1 fg%

Walton averaged 5.5 apg as a senior, the first year that was an official stat. Blocks were not an official stat when either played.

The big difference is that Alcindor/Jabbar's teams were undefeated in NCAAT play, Walton's teams lost that 1974 semi-final game to NC State.

Walton and Wes Unseld were the two best outlet passers of all-time, IMO. But Alcindor/Jabbar's skyhook was unstoppable.

And no team has ever been more impressive in the Final Four than the 1968 UCLA team, which beat no. 1 and undefeated Houston (Elvin Hayes, Don Chaney) 101-69 and no. 4 UNC (Larry Miller, Charlie Scott) 78-55.

That latter game was the only time John Wooden and Dean Smith coached against each other.

[Jeffrey]

Alcindor/Jabbar-26.4 ppg, 15.5 rbg, 63.9fg%

Walton-20.3 ppg, 15.7 rpg, 65.1 fg%

Walton averaged 5.5 apg as a senior, the first year that was an official stat. Blocks were not an official stat when either played.

The big difference is that Alcindor/Jabbar's teams were undefeated in NCAAT play, Walton's teams lost that 1974 semi-final game to NC State.

Walton and Wes Unseld were the two best outlet passers of all-time, IMO. But Alcindor/Jabbar's skyhook was unstoppable.

And no team has ever been more impressive in the Final Four than the 1968 UCLA team, which beat no. 1 and undefeated Houston (Elvin Hayes, Don Chaney) 101-69 and no. 4 UNC (Larry Miller, Charlie Scott) 78-55.

That latter game was the only time John Wooden and Dean Smith coached against each other.

Thank you, very much, Jim. I really appreciate learning about what happened before my time.

I remember the ‘74 State/UCLA game well. It’s probably my all-time favorite non-Duke game. Thompson was amazing to watch!

[Saratoga2]

Lew Alcindor/Kareem is the best college basketball player ever, IMO. The debate starts at number 2. And Oscar Robertson belongs on the short list.


To the broader question, it's pretty hard to compare a one-and-done with someone who played 3 or 4 years in college.

And before we go too far down the comparing-freshmen-seasons-rabbit hole, recall that when guys like Thompson and Laettner and Len Bias and Ralph Sampson were seniors, so were many of their cohorts. Just a different game.

So, defining terms is very important in a debate of this type.

I'd take Bill Russell. San Francisco and the Celtics.

[OldPhiKap]

Lew Alcindor/Kareem is the best college basketball player ever, IMO.

While I’m not going to try to argue with Jim (because I will certainly lose), I’ll throw out that Pistol Pete averaged 44.2 ppg in his three years and that was well before the three point shot. Averaged 6.5 rpg and 5.1 apg as well.

Not saying he’s better — saying it is a race.

[jimsumner]

While I’m not going to try to argue with Jim (because I will certainly lose), I’ll throw out that Pistol Pete averaged 44.2 ppg in his three years and that was well before the three point shot. Averaged 6.5 rpg and 5.1 apg as well.

Not saying he’s better — saying it is a race.

You'll be arguing with yourself.

It's a team game.

Maravich's teams never came close to winning anything of consequence and he did not make his teammates better.

I've been down this road way too many times and I'm not going to bother anymore.

[OldPhiKap]

You'll be arguing with yourself.

It's a team game.

Maravich's teams never came close to winning anything of consequence and he did not make his teammates better.

I've been down this road way too many times and I'm not going to bother anymore.

And not trying to draw you into one. As I said, I respect your opinion and not looking to debate.

(although Pete’s apg must mean he did something for his teammates . . . . ;-) ).

[mattyoung18]

Are you only addressing the ACC? Otherwise,
I definitely have Bill Walton on my list.

I think Christian was Duke’s best. In the ACC, I’d add Sampson and Bias to the second line. Thompson was in his own league.

The best of college hoops... Thompson vs. Walton.

I think god almost ever day I grew up watching Laettner play. Most clutch player ever.

[UrinalCake]

So today’s game highlighted some of Carey’s limitations, which is that he can’t guard a small center out to the perimeter, and on the other end he couldn’t fully take advantage because he was double and triple teamed every time he touched the ball. It was the right play to take.m him out of the game. But then again, not many NBA teams will be running out a 6’5 center.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Numbers to numbers, Zion was better as a freshman than Laettner was in ANY year.

Numbers to numbers? Try this
Laettner 4 Final Fours
Laettner 10-10 and 10-10 for 31
Laettner 2 nattys
Laettner 2 Regional Finals game winners

love Zion to death, but Laettner had one of the best, if not the best, college career ever. He certainly had the best NCAA career ever. And FWIW, Laettner did it while universally despised except by Duke fans.

[uh_no]

Numbers to numbers? Try this
Laettner 4 Final Fours
Laettner 10-10 and 10-10 for 31
Laettner 2 nattys
Laettner 2 Regional Finals game winners

love Zion to death, but Laettner had one of the best, if not the best, college career ever. He certainly had the best NCAA career ever. And FWIW, Laettner did it while universally despised except by Duke fans.

laettner won 2 nattys in one year? impressive :)

[Bob Green]

laettner won 2 nattys in one year? impressive :)

Personally, I discount all OAD players from all “greatest ever” discussions. This era will end at some point and I am solidly in the sooner the better club.

Let them go straight to the NBA instead of making a mockery out of the term student-athlete. Basketball needs to follow the football/baseball model.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

laettner won 2 nattys in one year? impressive :)

I reject the whole premise of comparing 1 year players to 4 year players, and reject the notion that a 1 year player can be "the greatest ever" of anything other than one year players. Is Zion the greatest one year player Duke has had? Absolutely. Is the he greatest one year player in college? Perhaps, but cases can be made for Melo and Anthony Davis. Is team success the guiding principle in assessing these? No, but it is a factor to consider.

[dukelifer]

Numbers to numbers? Try this
Laettner 4 Final Fours
Laettner 10-10 and 10-10 for 31
Laettner 2 nattys
Laettner 2 Regional Finals game winners

love Zion to death, but Laettner had one of the best, if not the best, college career ever. He certainly had the best NCAA career ever. And FWIW, Laettner did it while universally despised except by Duke fans.

Even disliked by a few teammates ;)

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Even disliked by a few teammates ;)

Maybe disliked, but certainly respected.

[DukeDTD]

How about leadership? The will to win? Refuse to lose?

I’ll take Laettner every day of the week and twice on national championship night.

Same. There is certainly no comparison in terms of what each did for Duke basketball.

[DukeDTD]

Personally, I discount all OAD players from all “greatest ever” discussions. This era will end at some point and I am solidly in the sooner the better club.

Let them go straight to the NBA instead of making a mockery out of the term student-athlete. Basketball needs to follow the football/baseball model.

Amen. We actually recruit and admit kids to a top 10 university knowing that they have no intention of graduating. As a Duke fan (and grad), I was always proud to know that we took the academic high ground. K used to not even hang banners until all members of that year's senior class graduated. Cannot take the high ground any more. We sold out. Hard to point the finger at the Heels academic issues with the mockery that OAD makes of the academic part of student athlete

Fortunately, every other sport, including football has an academic profile worthy of a top 10 university.

[kAzE]

This is a semantics argument. There's zero doubt Laettner had the better college career. He played 4 years. Of course he had more titles and accolades. The "best" player can be measured different ways. If you mean who had the better college career, Laettner is the easy choice. If you mean who is actually the most talented player, capable of having the most successful basketball career (college and pros combined), then it's easily Zion.

I love college basketball, but I'm just a basketball fan, and I love the NBA as well, so I usually don't look at these things with only college in mind. That was the approach I took, and that's why my answer was Zion first, then Laettner, then Elton Brand. And really, I think Laettner could have had a MUCH better pro career if a few things went differently for him, especially if he hadn't injured his achilles. He came in to the NBA 25 years too early. In the current NBA, he would be a perennial All-Star as one of the best stretch bigs in the league.

Many of Duke's best have had their pro careers ruined by injuries, Grant, Laettner, Elton, Bobby, J-Will. Gotta hope Zion can overcome this.

[ChillinDuke]

This is a semantics argument. There's zero doubt Laettner had the better college career. He played 4 years. Of course he had more titles and accolades. The "best" player can be measured different ways. If you mean who had the better college career, Laettner is the easy choice. If you mean who is actually the most talented player, capable of having the most successful basketball career (college and pros combined), then it's easily Zion.

I love college basketball, but I'm just a basketball fan, and I love the NBA as well, so I usually don't look at these things with only college in mind. That was the approach I took, and that's why my answer was Zion first, then Laettner, then Elton Brand. And honestly, Laettner was 20 years too early. In the current NBA, he would be a perennial All-Star as one of the best stretch bigs in the league.

I agree with this entirely.

Further emphasizing Zion Williamson as a player (and not as an accomplisher), what he did on the court was truly otherworldly. Rarely, if ever, has a player made me hold my breath by simply holding a basketball on the court. Many players can do it for moments in time, even sequences. But Zion did it for entire games, really an entire season. He was and is appointment television. Laettner, while an incredible collegiate accomplisher, was a mere mortal on the court by comparison. A sensational mortal, but a mortal nonetheless.

Hyperbole aside, if Zion can stay healthy in the NBA, I believe he is likely to have the best basketball career of any Duke player ever. Standing at today, that's unfortunately a big if. But his play in Summer League was an easy glimpse into how dominant he can be, already, in the NBA. I can't wait to see him suit up in the next couple weeks.

- Chillin

[jv001]

This is a semantics argument. There's zero doubt Laettner had the better college career. He played 4 years. Of course he had more titles and accolades. The "best" player can be measured different ways. If you mean who had the better college career, Laettner is the easy choice. If you mean who is actually the most talented player, capable of having the most successful basketball career (college and pros combined), then it's easily Zion.

I love college basketball, but I'm just a basketball fan, and I love the NBA as well, so I usually don't look at these things with only college in mind. That was the approach I took, and that's why my answer was Zion first, then Laettner, then Elton Brand. And really, I think Laettner could have had a MUCH better pro career if a few things went differently for him, especially if he hadn't injured his achilles. He came in to the NBA 25 years too early. In the current NBA, he would be a perennial All-Star as one of the best stretch bigs in the league.

Many of Duke's best have had their pro careers ruined by injuries, Grant, Laettner, Elton, Bobby, J-Will. Gotta hope Zion can overcome this.

I would have to put Grant Hill in that conversation as well and he was a 4 year player. However, I don't care that much for the NBA. I do follow the Duke guys but that's about it. I wish for the 3 year baseball rule just like Bob. GoDuke!

[kAzE]

I would have to put Grant Hill in that conversation as well and he was a 4 year player. However, I don't care that much for the NBA. I do follow the Duke guys but that's about it. I wish for the 3 year baseball rule just like Bob. GoDuke!

Obviously Grant is always in the discussion when it comes to the greatest Duke players ever, but he wasn't part of this particular discussion because the premise was the best Duke "big man."

[jv001]

Obviously Grant is always in the discussion when it comes to the greatest Duke players ever, but he wasn't part of this particular discussion because the premise was the best Duke "big man."

Yes, I see your list only had bigs on it. I guess I had Grant on my mind with the Pistol Pete comparisons. GoDuke!

[JNort]

Question #1: Is the best Duke big man since Shelden? or maybe even since Boozer or Elton? (I don't consider Bagley to be a true big man)
I like his game a whole lot. What he did to the purported best big man in the country, Azubuike, was unreal. Love this guy.

Question #2: Does he have stamina issues? I see Coach k subbing him out a lot, particularly late in games when we might need him. Are they short term issues? or long term?

I love a lot of guys on this team, but he's the most impressive, IMO.
Bagley is best a center so I say he's better, Oak is obvious, Zion is a wing/big hybrid but I count him too, MP2 was amazing and better also.

[JNort]

Even with the "back to the basket center" clarification in mind, I still have to think that Bagley should be in there. Yes, he was able to face up and drive, but his main source of offense was still posting up, and we frequently gave it to him in the post, where he was unstoppable. He had great touch going left or right with his back to the basket, and even if he missed, he was getting the offensive board and dunking it before the defenders could even jump once.

So my answer would be Bagley, but if we're excluding him for some reason, I like the all around game of Wendell Carter more than Okafor, Williams, and Boozer as the best "back to the basket traditional center" since Elton Brand. However, I think Okafor probably has the best overall case with his dominance on offense, even though his defense was suspect.

If Vernon continues his current trajectory and also improves, he could be that guy. But I'd probably still take Bagley over him, he was just such a game changer with his quickness.

Lastly, I think Mason Plumlee at least needs a mention in this thread. That guy was a great 4 year player.



This! MP2 was amazing his Sr year and waa fairly close to getting a NPOY award

[jv001]

Bagley is best a center so I say he's better, Oak is obvious, Zion is a wing/big hybrid but I count him too, MP2 was amazing and better also.

Randy Denton was better than any of the Plumlees during their Duke careers. You may not have seen Randy play. Just look at his stats and you'll see how good he was. Didn't have much help though. GoDuke!

[duke74]

Randy Denton was better than any of the Plumlees during their Duke careers. You may not have seen Randy play. Just look at his stats and you'll see how good he was. Didn't have much help though. GoDuke!

Had the pleasure of seeing him my freshman year.

What about the “Springfield Rifle,” Dickie D and Larry Saunders? (My year with him). Decent group.

[duke74]

This is a semantics argument. There's zero doubt Laettner had the better college career. He played 4 years. Of course he had more titles and accolades. The "best" player can be measured different ways. If you mean who had the better college career, Laettner is the easy choice. If you mean who is actually the most talented player, capable of having the most successful basketball career (college and pros combined), then it's easily Zion.

I love college basketball, but I'm just a basketball fan, and I love the NBA as well, so I usually don't look at these things with only college in mind. That was the approach I took, and that's why my answer was Zion first, then Laettner, then Elton Brand. And really, I think Laettner could have had a MUCH better pro career if a few things went differently for him, especially if he hadn't injured his achilles. He came in to the NBA 25 years too early. In the current NBA, he would be a perennial All-Star as one of the best stretch bigs in the league.

Many of Duke's best have had their pro careers ruined by injuries, Grant, Laettner, Elton, Bobby, J-Will. Gotta hope Zion can overcome this.

A couple self-inflicted unfortunately.

[duke74]

Amen. We actually recruit and admit kids to a top 10 university knowing that they have no intention of graduating. As a Duke fan (and grad), I was always proud to know that we took the academic high ground. K used to not even hang banners until all members of that year's senior class graduated. Cannot take the high ground any more. We sold out. Hard to point the finger at the Heels academic issues with the mockery that OAD makes of the academic part of student athlete

Fortunately, every other sport, including football has an academic profile worthy of a top 10 university.

Not sure I would go so far as to compare the OAD situation with the Heels’ issues.

[dukelifer]

Randy Denton was better than any of the Plumlees during their Duke careers. You may not have seen Randy play. Just look at his stats and you'll see how good he was. Didn't have much help though. GoDuke!

Guy only played 3 years and never hit a 3- how good could he have been ;)

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Guy only played 3 years and never hit a 3- how good could he have been ;)

Saw him (Denton) play some for the Cougars. He had developed an outside shot for the pros. His outshde shooting may have included the ABA three pointer.

[JNort]

Randy Denton was better than any of the Plumlees during their Duke careers. You may not have seen Randy play. Just look at his stats and you'll see how good he was. Didn't have much help though. GoDuke!

I didn't see him play, no. However stats would indicate MP2 was definitely better from what I see. It's hard to judge though due to differing era's, teams, coaching styles. MP2 is heavily undervalued amongst Duke fans.