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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 83, Winthrop 70 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
11-29-2019, 09:06 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

Saratoga2
11-29-2019, 09:11 PM
Only able to follow the 2nd half of the game on Game Tracker. Noticed Carey was in for only 22 minutes and Tre turned the ball over a lot in the second half. Kudos to 4 Dukies in double figures. I'll be interested in the status of Stanleys left knee. Hoping for the best there.

Jeffrey
11-29-2019, 09:11 PM
That Jeffrey guy sure was wrong about winning by 30!

duke4ever19
11-29-2019, 09:12 PM
Well, you ACCN viewers, how did they look?

I'm stuck looking at box scores like it's 1987.

FerryFor50
11-29-2019, 09:12 PM
Way better than a loss. Glad Baker is getting some burn and making the most of it, but despite his best efforts, he’s a work in progress on defense.

Lucky for him, Duke sorely needs shot makers - especially now that Stanley is hurt.

scottdude8
11-29-2019, 09:13 PM
Let’s hope Cassius is OK.

Joey stepping to the plate is a big development, regardless of what forces him to have to be in that situation in the first place.

I may be less optimistic about Tuesday after this week, but I remain optimistic about this team as a whole.

Next play.

uh_no
11-29-2019, 09:13 PM
after tuesday, i'll take it.

Troublemaker
11-29-2019, 09:14 PM
A Jones - Stanley - Baker - Hurt - Carey starting lineup is a championship contender in March, imo. Just when I had that vision, Cassius gets injured. What a bummer. Hopefully it's a short-term thing.

kcduke75
11-29-2019, 09:14 PM
Nothing's going to be easy this year.

As long as DUKE is on the chest, we'll get everyone's best shot.

Next play.

PS - positive thoughts for Stanley

WakeDevil
11-29-2019, 09:14 PM
They had nowhere to go but up. They did, a little. A weird lineup at the end. The next game could be ugly ... or not.

ShaneRyan
11-29-2019, 09:16 PM
Hard to take many positives from this week, but Joey Baker and Matt Hurt are two of them. Even if Cassius comes back and all is well, we need both of these guys to be productive offensively.

The rest is rough, and if you'd told me that losing to SFA would be our second-worst loss of the week, well...not great, folks. Here's hoping for the best when we figure out what's what tomorrow.

rocketeli
11-29-2019, 09:17 PM
These past two games I feel like Duke has been turning themselves over, rushing the pace past what they are comfortable with, resulting in turnovers and less than ideal offensive plays. Time and time again, I see Jones get the ball in the backcourt and frantically run forward, trying to push the pace for some reason, which seems to mostly discombobulate the offense, as everybody then gets into the act, hurling ill-conceived, hurried passes off of teammates or out-of-bounds, tossing up hurried shots and so on. I know Duke is a surprisingly "Carolina-like" team this year, but they are not ready to add that piece of the Carolina game to the repertoire yet. Similarly, on defense, people keep going for the exceptional play, over playing for steals, leaving their man for double teams, etc.
I think the team might be better served by taking a metaphorical deep breathe, realizing who they are right now (not good at super fast basketball) and play a more deliberate pace.

weezie
11-29-2019, 09:20 PM
Well, you ACCN viewers, how did they look?

I'm stuck looking at box scores like it's 1987.


As to the team? Long road ahead.

As to ACCN? UGH! The yapperheads are awful.

Jeffrey
11-29-2019, 09:20 PM
Well, you ACCN viewers, how did they look?

I'm stuck looking at box scores like it's 1987.

My primary concern is Tre. Amazed average talent has blown past him, almost at will, two consecutive games. Also amazed by his TOs the last two games, at home, against mediocre talent.

The big positives were Hurt and Baker!

Furniture
11-29-2019, 09:21 PM
Chat had this one a W from the start. Never in doubt.

TKG
11-29-2019, 09:22 PM
K and staff have their work cut out....

Troublemaker
11-29-2019, 09:23 PM
In the radio postgame, Coach K says the injury is a hamstring injury, not a knee injury. He says the fact that it's a muscle injury is "really really good" as compared to the alternatives / worst case fears. There's no timetable yet obviously, but Coach K doesn't expect Cassius to play against MSU

du_bb1
11-29-2019, 09:27 PM
Hammys can take awhile, hopefully he will be on the quick side. Bakers threes were big obviously, they all need to be stronger with the ball. We will get better, but it may be ugly at times.

HereBeforeCoachK
11-29-2019, 09:29 PM
Chat had this one a W from the start. Never in doubt.

You noticed that too......

dukelifer
11-29-2019, 09:29 PM
In the radio postgame, Coach K says the injury is a hamstring injury, not a knee injury. He says the fact that it's a muscle injury is "really really good" as compared to the alternatives / worst case fears. There's no timetable yet obviously, but Coach K doesn't expect Cassius to play against MSU

Yes- but depending on severity- those can take a while- but mostly rest. Time for AOC to pick up his game as Duke will need an athletic wing. Nothing will be easy for this Duke team. They are just young and raw at this point- but the glimmers of talent are there.

lotusland
11-29-2019, 09:29 PM
Good game by Hurt and Baker. Good game by Tre but 5 TOs is too many. Hate to rain on the Joey Buckets party but Vernon Carey is MOM again.

Saratoga2
11-29-2019, 09:31 PM
Hammys c an take awhile, hopefully he will be on the quick side. Bakers threes were big obviously, they all need to be stronger with the ball. We will get better, but it may be ugly at times.

Depending on the severity (black and blue to the knee) it can take 6 weeks of recovery time. Hope for the best. At least it comes before the ACC part of the schedule gets going.

Troublemaker
11-29-2019, 09:36 PM
Once you factor in the Cassius injury, I think this was a pretty good performance. Or, put another way, if he hadn't gotten injured and had made the dunk for a 48-37 lead early in the second half, I think Duke would've gone on to win by 20+ and maybe covered the spread. Once he got injured, the rotation obviously became discombobulated. JGold did okay for what he is but you would still rather have Cassius, and Wendell was having a performance that would've gotten him benched for the rest of the half under normal circumstances but he had to be worked back in there.

My main complain is transition defense. We can't allow these teams to just run it down our throats like that, especially with MSU's vaunted fast break on deck.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-29-2019, 09:40 PM
We will learn a lot next week.

Music man55
11-29-2019, 09:46 PM
These past two games I feel like Duke has been turning themselves over, rushing the pace past what they are comfortable with, resulting in turnovers and less than ideal offensive plays. Time and time again, I see Jones get the ball in the backcourt and frantically run forward, trying to push the pace for some reason, which seems to mostly discombobulate the offense, as everybody then gets into the act, hurling ill-conceived, hurried passes off of teammates or out-of-bounds, tossing up hurried shots and so on. I know Duke is a surprisingly "Carolina-like" team this year, but they are not ready to add that piece of the Carolina game to the repertoire yet. Similarly, on defense, people keep going for the exceptional play, over playing for steals, leaving their man for double teams, etc.
I think the team might be better served by taking a metaphorical deep breathe, realizing who they are right now (not good at super fast basketball) and play a more deliberate pace.
Good post rocketeli. Pretty much sums up my thoughts. Maybe they just need to slow down and find out who they are. Hoping Stanley gets back soon. Glad to get the win tonight.

DaleDuke7
11-29-2019, 09:50 PM
Coach K in the postgame press conference saying that we may not even be a top 25 team right now. Saying other things that pretty much means he knows it’s going to be a long and tough season. Says it’s gonna take time.

Personally, I’ve never had high expectations this year. I’m thinking a 10 loss season is realistic. Seems like K is downplaying expectations for the team this year more than previous years for those that may be expecting our usual perennial top 5 team.

proelitedota
11-29-2019, 09:51 PM
That was a deserved and hard right win, even against a lesser team.

Devilwin
11-29-2019, 09:53 PM
Must get better on defense. MOTM to me was Matthew Hurt with 20 points 8 rebounds. Baker was great from three..Carey seventeen points 10 boards.

CrazyNotCrazie
11-29-2019, 09:57 PM
Ugly win but I will take it. I hope Cassius is OK. Our defense was weak - too many easy, open shots for Winthrop. We seem to be making a lot of what they call in tennis "unforced errors" - sloppy turnovers that weren't really caused by the other team, just us being unable to catch the ball, throwing it away for no reason, etc.

I don't understand why Vernon is only playing 22 minutes with only 1 foul. He is a big guy but has been playing at a high level for years and knew going into the summer that he was going to be our primary big guy without a lot behind him - conditioning should not be an issue.

Michigan State will be rough. K needs to teach Tre and Goldwire to draw offensive fouls off Winston's constant pushing off with his off arm.

proelitedota
11-29-2019, 09:59 PM
As for K saying we're not a 25 team. I respectfully disagree. Has he seen the field? It's the downest year that I remember.

roywhite
11-29-2019, 10:03 PM
Hurt and Baker have length, a nice touch, and good range. Nice to see them get their opportunities and pull the trigger; something to build on for an offense that is a work in progress. Tre's turnovers are disappointing.

Seemed like a good win overall against a well-coached, hard playing team in Winthrop.

https://goduke.com/documents/2019/11/29//112919_.pdf

simplyluvin
11-29-2019, 10:04 PM
Coach K in the postgame press conference saying that we may not even be a top 25 team right now. Saying other things that pretty much means he knows it’s going to be a long and tough season. Says it’s gonna take time.

Personally, I’ve never had high expectations this year. I’m thinking a 10 loss season is realistic. Seems like K is downplaying expectations for the team this year more than previous years for those that may be expecting our usual perennial top 5 team.

Coach tempering expectations is a bad sign. I also said in the last game thread this is a 10 to 12 loss team, reminiscent of 2015-16 or 06-07 (Scheyer’s freshman year). I can’t remember a Duke team that outplayed in the long run their early season performance. In other words, the first 10 to 15 games are usually pretty indicative of the kind of team we have.

The glimmer of hope is that Tre channels his inner Stones Jr. and gets his head in the game. Also, the talent seems to be there, but Coach may not be seeing the response he wants from the team in terms of effort.

jv001
11-29-2019, 10:05 PM
As for K saying we're not a 25 team. I respectfully disagree. Has he seen the field? It's the downest year that I remember.

I think Coach K is trying to take the entitlement attitude away from our guys. He even told one of tonight's announcers that this team inherited the number one ranking and hadn't earned it. I don't think any of our guys will come out flat against Michigan State. Not if he wants to play meaningful minutes. GoDuke!

ncexnyc
11-29-2019, 10:10 PM
Freshman often play like you'd expect a freshman to play and that's what we're seeing with this group of kids. They have their ups and downs from game to game and at times even within the same game.

If they're still making the same mistakes over and over again by the halfway point of the season then we'll have a problem, but for now sit back and watch the growth of this team.

jipops
11-29-2019, 10:19 PM
I think Coach K is trying to take the entitlement attitude away from our guys. He even told one of tonight's announcers that this team inherited the number one ranking and hadn't earned it. I don't think any of our guys will come out flat against Michigan State. Not if he wants to play meaningful minutes. GoDuke!

I think there is something behind K saying that too. Though I was thinking the same thing watching this game. At the beginning of the season I said I thought this team might be 4th best in the conference. Looks like I may have been off on that one.

Steven43
11-29-2019, 10:22 PM
Coach tempering expectations is a bad sign. I also said in the last game thread this is a 10 to 12 loss team, reminiscent of 2015-16 or 06-07 (Scheyer’s freshman year). I can’t remember a Duke team that outplayed in the long run their early season performance. In other words, the first 10 to 15 games are usually pretty indicative of the kind of team we have.

The glimmer of hope is that Tre channels his inner Stones Jr. and gets his head in the game. Also, the talent seems to be there, but Coach may not be seeing the response he wants from the team in terms of effort.
I like this team better than last year’s team. Last year was exciting, primarily because of Zion Williamson, but the style of play was frustrating. We shot (and missed) what seemed like too many threes, though I haven’t looked at the actual numbers. I also disliked the hero ball aspect of more than a few crucial late-game moments. And I didn’t care for one particular player having a sky-high usage rate. That’s not Duke Basketball. Oh, and Cam made me nervous as hell every time he touched the ball. Additionally, the Joey Baker saga was maddening.

Overall, I think this team plays with more togetherness.

Kedsy
11-29-2019, 10:29 PM
So-so performances on both sides of the ball. Worst rebounding performance since the Kansas game. Biggest issue was turnovers, on both sides of the court.

OFFENSE

Possessions: 74.8 (not too fast; not too slow; I think pace was fine)
oRtg: 1.10 (4th best oRtg in eight games)
eFG%: 58.8% (strong)
3pt%: 58.3% (best 3pt% of the season)
2pt%: 51.1% (acceptable but could be better; 4th best 2pt% in eight games)
%threes: 21.1% (low; interestingly, our three lowest %three performances correspond to our three best 3pt% performances)
FT rate: 38.6% (not bad; fifth consecutive free throw rate over 38.5%)
OR%: 26.7% (bad)
TO%: 21.4% (also bad; fifth 20+ TO% of the season in eight games, including three in a row)
a/to: 0.94:1 (not good; third straight game with more turnovers than assists)
%assisted: 50.0%
fast break pts: 13 (15.7% of points; acceptable, not good)

DEFENSE

dRtg: 0.94 (last three games have been our three worst defensive ppp of the season)
eFG%: 48.5% (meh)
3pt%: 28.6% (good)
2pt%: 51.1% (not good; third straight game over 50%)
%threes: 31.8% (OK; 2nd highest such percentage of the season but not outrageously high, and they didn't shoot very well so I guess it's all good)
FT rate: 19.7% (very good)
DR%: 71.8% (2nd lowest DR% of the season, but at least we're over 70%)
TO%: 17.4% (2nd straight down performance in forcing turnovers)
a/to: 1.08:1 (2nd straight over 1:1 after our first six games all under 0.72:1)
%assisted: 48.3%
stl%: 12.0% (not bad)
blk%: 6.1% (8.9% of 2pt shots) (2nd worst block party of the season, behind only the Kansas game)
fast break pts: 8 (11.4% of points; not bad; lowest % of opponent's points this season)


Better than SFA, but that's not saying much. Hopefully the team will step up in the next couple games.

Steven43
11-29-2019, 10:45 PM
Do you think Stanley actually hurt himself BEFORE he missed the shot and landed? I was at the game and didn’t have the benefit of replay, but it seemed very very strange that a big-time leaper like Cassius Stanley would have an unguarded breakaway dunk and not even effectively reach the rim. Any thoughts?

FerryFor50
11-29-2019, 10:52 PM
Do you think Stanley actually hurt himself BEFORE he missed the shot and landed? I was at the game and didn’t have the benefit of replay, but it seemed very very strange that a big-time leaper like Cassius Stanley would have an unguarded breakaway dunk and not even effectively reach the rim. Any thoughts?

I think it was after he landed. He didn't seem to react like he was in pain until after he landed.

jv001
11-29-2019, 10:57 PM
Do you think Stanley actually hurt himself BEFORE he missed the shot and landed? I was at the game and didn’t have the benefit of replay, but it seemed very very strange that a big-time leaper like Cassius Stanley would have an unguarded breakaway dunk and not even effectively reach the rim. Any thoughts?

I couldn't tell if he hurt himself before he landed but I'm like you Steven43, I was waiting for a dunk on the play. When he just tried to lay the ball in the basket, I thought something was wrong. I'm wondering if he felt some tightness during the time he was playing. One thing for sure we won't hear much from the coaching staff. I hope Cassius comes back by January but not at the expense of reinjuring his hamstring. several NFL players have been out extended time this season with hamstring injuries.
GoDuke!

accfanfrom1970
11-29-2019, 10:57 PM
Well, you ACCN viewers, how did they look?

I'm stuck looking at box scores like it's 1987.

It was a very uneven performance. Offensively Hurt and Baker shot well, Baker nearly perfect. Tre made some shots, as did Carey. However we turned the ball over way too much.

But defensively? Like against SFA they seemed to be able to get into the lane at will, especially off the dribble. Help D was weak.

I guess Tuesday will show if this was a step forward or not.

Steven43
11-29-2019, 10:59 PM
I think it was after he landed. He didn't seem to react like he was in pain until after he landed.

Okay, sure, but why did he have trouble completing what should have been a very easy bring-the crowd-to-their-feet dunk?? I didn’t notice him fumbling with the ball on the way up or anything like that. Cassius Stanley can make this kind of dunk in his sleep. What else would explain him completely bungling it other than that he hurt himself just before, or right as, he began his jump?

Kedsy
11-29-2019, 10:59 PM
I can’t remember a Duke team that outplayed in the long run their early season performance. In other words, the first 10 to 15 games are usually pretty indicative of the kind of team we have.

Here's Duke's last 15 seasons with records for first 10 and first 15 games:



Year 10 gms 15 gms Final NCAAT
2019 9-1 14-1 32-6 E8
2018 9-1 13-2 29-8 E8
2017 9-1 13-2 28-9 R32
2016 9-1 13-2 25-11 S16
2015 10-0 14-1 35-4 Ch
2014 8-2 12-3 26-9 R64
2013 10-0 15-0 30-6 E8
2012 9-1 13-2 27-7 R64
2011 10-0 15-0 32-5 S16
2010 9-1 13-2 35-5 Ch
2009 9-1 14-1 30-7 S16
2008 10-0 14-1 28-6 R32
2007 9-1 14-1 22-11 R64
2006 10-0 15-0 32-4 S16
2005 10-0 15-0 27-6 S16


Sorry, I don't see a correlation. Also, hard to "outplay" our performance in these early games. Not sure this tells us anything at all.

FerryFor50
11-29-2019, 11:00 PM
Okay, sure, but why did he have trouble completing what should have been a very easy bring-the crowd-to-their-feet dunk?? I didn’t notice him fumbling with the ball on the way up or anything like that. Cassius Stanley can make this kind of dunk in his sleep. What else would explain him completely bungling it other than that he hurt himself just before or right as he began his jump?

Maybe he started to jump and realized he wasn't in a position to dunk it. But he didn't seem to make any face like he was hurt on the way up.

jv001
11-29-2019, 11:02 PM
Here's Duke's last 15 seasons with records for first 10 and first 15 games:



Year 10 gms 15 gms Final NCAAT
2019 9-1 14-1 32-6 E8
2018 9-1 13-2 29-8 E8
2017 9-1 13-2 28-9 R32
2016 9-1 13-2 25-11 S16
2015 10-0 14-1 35-4 Ch
2014 8-2 12-3 26-9 R64
2013 10-0 15-0 30-6 E8
2012 9-1 13-2 27-7 R64
2011 10-0 15-0 32-5 S16
2010 9-1 13-2 35-5 Ch
2009 9-1 14-1 30-7 S16
2008 10-0 14-1 28-6 R32
2007 9-1 14-1 22-11 R64
2006 10-0 15-0 32-4 S16
2005 10-0 15-0 27-6 S16


Sorry, I don't see a correlation. Also, hard to "outplay" our performance in these early games. Not sure this tells us anything at all.

I agree, it looks like we played very well in those games. Our out of conference schedule has been fairly weak except for tournament play. This years team just seems to be different than the last several teams. I guess it's because we don't have top ten NBA talent this season. Well, unless Carey turns out to be that good. GoDuke!

sagegrouse
11-29-2019, 11:05 PM
Do you think Stanley actually hurt himself BEFORE he missed the shot and landed? I was at the game and didn’t have the benefit of replay, but it seemed very very strange that a big-time leaper like Cassius Stanley would have an unguarded breakaway dunk and not even effectively reach the rim. Any thoughts?

I tend to agree with you. Don't you "pop" a hamstring -- i.e., overextend it? I didn't see anything at all on the landing.

ChillinDuke
11-29-2019, 11:19 PM
I'll take it.

But man, Javin and Wendell were nearly unplayable tonight. Waiting for the day when Javin stops playing entitled - strong words I know, but I think fits how I seem him playing right now. Wendell, OTOH, is a freshman and going through ups and downs - but today was a down day, very down.

Hoping Cassius is ok. He looks like he blew a tire elevating, which shouldn't mean an ACL but could mean something else equally problematic. Hoping for the best.

Great half from Hurt. Carey continues to play VERY well. Loved Goldwire and Baker tonight. It wasn't pretty but we got it done.

- Chillin

Steven43
11-29-2019, 11:24 PM
Javin and Wendell were nearly unplayable tonight. Waiting for the day when Javin stops playing entitled - strong words I know, but I think fits how I seem him playing right now. Wendell, OTOH, is a freshman and going through ups and downs - but today was a down day, very down.

Yeah, I was very impressed with Moore when he was playing PG against Central Arkansas. But I haven’t seen that athletic, confident, skillful version of him since. Obviously, the potential is there, though.

sagegrouse
11-29-2019, 11:35 PM
Here's Duke's last 15 seasons with records for first 10 and first 15 games:



Year 10 gms 15 gms Final NCAAT
2019 9-1 14-1 32-6 E8
2018 9-1 13-2 29-8 E8
2017 9-1 13-2 28-9 R32
2016 9-1 13-2 25-11 S16
2015 10-0 14-1 35-4 Ch
2014 8-2 12-3 26-9 R64
2013 10-0 15-0 30-6 E8
2012 9-1 13-2 27-7 R64
2011 10-0 15-0 32-5 S16
2010 9-1 13-2 35-5 Ch
2009 9-1 14-1 30-7 S16
2008 10-0 14-1 28-6 R32
2007 9-1 14-1 22-11 R64
2006 10-0 15-0 32-4 S16
2005 10-0 15-0 27-6 S16


Sorry, I don't see a correlation. Also, hard to "outplay" our performance in these early games. Not sure this tells us anything at all.

Hi, Kedsy. we should focus on 15 games -- there is no meaningful variation in the ten-game results -- every year is either zero or one loss.

I did look in some detail at the 15 game results and agree with you that there's not much there. Here is the loss percentage for the remainder of the season where the team lost the listed number of games in the first 15:

Zero -- 25.9 percent -- 82 games -- four seasons
One -- 28.7 percent -- 106 games -- five seasons
Two -- 28.1 percent -- 109 games -- five seasons
Three -- 30.0 percent -- 20 games -- one season (essentially meaningless)

Cheers,
Sage

rsvman
11-29-2019, 11:54 PM
...

As to ACCN? UGH! The yapperheads are awful.

Thankfully, they reminded us that we have a tough game coming up on Tuesday against the Michigan Wolverines, so we can be adequately prepared.



SMH

Furniture
11-30-2019, 12:42 AM
Do you think Stanley actually hurt himself BEFORE he missed the shot and landed? I was at the game and didn’t have the benefit of replay, but it seemed very very strange that a big-time leaper like Cassius Stanley would have an unguarded breakaway dunk and not even effectively reach the rim. Any thoughts?

had to be before. He would have 100% dunked that if he could of....

killerleft
11-30-2019, 01:37 AM
Chat had this one a W from the start. Never in doubt.

That's why I stayed away. All of that optimism is too saccharin for me.

Troublemaker
11-30-2019, 06:46 AM
Wendell, OTOH, is a freshman and going through ups and downs - but today was a down day, very down.


Yeah, I was very impressed with Moore when he was playing PG against Central Arkansas. But I haven’t seen that athletic, confident, skillful version of him since. Obviously, the potential is there, though.

My quick take on Wendell, since he's going to be the key player that needs to step up during the time that Cassius is out. (Ironically, even though Joey's played much fewer minutes, I have total confidence in him as a starter. Joey's going to hit threes, put up 120+ offensive ratings [as compared to Wendell's sub-90 offensive rating for the season on high usage!], and play passable defense.)

Wendell so far has shown an inability to function in the three main things Duke runs on offense: the horns set, the floppy set, and motion. For example, there was a floppy action last night in which Wendell curled into the lane to receive the pass, and he's open to shoot. 100% of the time, the Duke perimeter player takes the shot there or if the defense is collapsing hard on him, kicks out for an open three. Instead, Wendell pauses with the ball in his hands. He does nothing, allowing the defense to reset and forcing him to create something out of nothing. (The possession ended badly but I can't remember whether it was a turnover or missed shot).

Anyway, that's pretty typical of Wendell not doing the right thing in these sets or in motion. There *is* one set piece that Wendell likes and can function in right now, and that's spread pick-n-roll with him as the ballhandler up top. To clarify, that means Duke puts 3 stationary shooters on the wings (stationary for an easy read for the ballhandler), and then Vernon or Javin comes up to set a ball screen for him to drive into open space, and he'll either score at the rim or kick out depending on how the defense reacts. He's actually pretty good making reads and being efficient out of spread pick-n-roll, and up until recently, it was responsible for almost all of his scoring.

I think to get Wendell going and to make him effective while Cassius is out, Duke needs to accommodate him and run this set piece for him more often. The great thing is that Joey's emergence dovetails well with this suggestion. You put Matthew, Joey, and Tre (who has improved his shooting) as the stationary shooters on the wing while Vernon comes up to set the ball screen for Wendell. I believe Wendell will produce 120 offensive ratings (personal and team) out of this setup.

Devilwin
11-30-2019, 07:45 AM
The defense is the big issue right now. Too many inside shots allowed..

lotusland
11-30-2019, 07:50 AM
The Duke focus on D was to run Winthrop off of the three point line which opened up the lane. The defense was a little uneven but some of it was by design. I was surprised how much PT JGold got after Stanley went out but he earned it. I hope AOC can earn some more PT. He’ll need to be a reliable defender and secondary ball handler.

BobBender
11-30-2019, 07:54 AM
The defense is the big issue right now. Too many inside shots allowed..

Kansas was supposed to be a team that should have given us trouble inside and they didn’t. So it’s head-scratching to watch the weak interior defense last two games against mediocre opponents. The Devils should never have to play Winthrop at home and win with ‘grit’ ( Jim Sumner’s word, not mine)

HereBeforeCoachK
11-30-2019, 08:10 AM
The defense is the big issue right now. Too many inside shots allowed..

That was certainly the case against SFA, but with Winthrop, it's a bit different. With their roster wide three point shooting and two very good penetrators, they are a tough team to defend. I'm not sure why they'd lost so many games coming into this one. They've been in the top 3 nationally shooting treys something like 4 years running. That's in their DNA.

devilnfla
11-30-2019, 08:17 AM
Good game by Hurt and Baker. Good game by Tre but 5 TOs is too many. Hate to rain on the Joey Buckets party but Vernon Carey is MOM again.

Disagree on Carey, I would split it between Hurt and Baker with honorable mention to Goldwire for his much needed defense.

ChillinDuke
11-30-2019, 09:45 AM
Do you think Stanley actually hurt himself BEFORE he missed the shot and landed? I was at the game and didn’t have the benefit of replay, but it seemed very very strange that a big-time leaper like Cassius Stanley would have an unguarded breakaway dunk and not even effectively reach the rim. Any thoughts?

It had to be before. Not only would he have slammed that down with the might of a thousand Thors, but if he had too little runway he would've easily laid it up. The outright miss told me that something happened that took his focus away from basketball for a significant enough portion of that liftoff.



My quick take on Wendell, since he's going to be the key player that needs to step up during the time that Cassius is out. (Ironically, even though Joey's played much fewer minutes, I have total confidence in him as a starter. Joey's going to hit threes, put up 120+ offensive ratings [as compared to Wendell's sub-90 offensive rating for the season on high usage!], and play passable defense.)

Wendell so far has shown an inability to function in the three main things Duke runs on offense: the horns set, the floppy set, and motion. For example, there was a floppy action last night in which Wendell curled into the lane to receive the pass, and he's open to shoot. 100% of the time, the Duke perimeter player takes the shot there or if the defense is collapsing hard on him, kicks out for an open three. Instead, Wendell pauses with the ball in his hands. He does nothing, allowing the defense to reset and forcing him to create something out of nothing. (The possession ended badly but I can't remember whether it was a turnover or missed shot).

Anyway, that's pretty typical of Wendell not doing the right thing in these sets or in motion. There *is* one set piece that Wendell likes and can function in right now, and that's spread pick-n-roll with him as the ballhandler up top. To clarify, that means Duke puts 3 stationary shooters on the wings (stationary for an easy read for the ballhandler), and then Vernon or Javin comes up to set a ball screen for him to drive into open space, and he'll either score at the rim or kick out depending on how the defense reacts. He's actually pretty good making reads and being efficient out of spread pick-n-roll, and up until recently, it was responsible for almost all of his scoring.

I think to get Wendell going and to make him effective while Cassius is out, Duke needs to accommodate him and run this set piece for him more often. The great thing is that Joey's emergence dovetails well with this suggestion. You put Matthew, Joey, and Tre (who has improved his shooting) as the stationary shooters on the wing while Vernon comes up to set the ball screen for Wendell. I believe Wendell will produce 120 offensive ratings (personal and team) out of this setup.

I agree with all of this. I remember the play you're referencing and that is exactly what Wendell is struggling with. His decision making stutters and then the play stutters and then you have a Cam Reddish force it situation for the rest of the play. Wendell has a lot of nice tools, but he's a work in progress - definitely not a surefire OAD to me. Still possible if his development ratchets. I stand by my analogy that his road can go Reddish (flatline all year) or Tatum (hyperbolic growth into postseason) - will be interesting to watch.

I said it after SFA and I'll point out after this game that Goldwire isn't as black and white as some argue. His ability to push Tre off ball on offense is interesting, especially as Tre's 3pt shooting just breached 33% (and seemingly increasing). And Jordan's defense is solid, especially on ball and in passing lanes. If Tre is going to play 40 mins a game (and I bet he will, in big games) then I think we NEED Jordan to play meaningful 10-15 mins a game in a role that allows Tre to recharge on the perimeter on offense, not having to initiate and muscle and focus on decision-making for a few plays. Similar on defense not having to solely disrupt the point of attack. (The analogy here is baseball pitchers and high stress pitches. Tre's pitch count is going to be high every game but you want to get him as many low-stress pitches as you can to manage him.)

The emergence of Baker offers some interesting combos with Goldwire-Jones-Stanley/Baker-Hurt/White-Carey.

AOC and Moore can join the party when they figure out their consistency.

And Javin can join the party when he stops thinking he simply deserves to make every play he initiates. (Strong words - but Javin is very disappointing so far)


- Chillin

SkyBrickey
11-30-2019, 09:56 AM
We will miss Cassius. He’s our one wing who can do it all. Shoot, drive, defend, rebound. It’s an opportunity for the other guys to step up just like Baker did last night.

Jack with 8 minutes. Alex with 6. It’s very interesting watching Coach tinker with the lineup. It’s basically 7-8 guys but not always the same 7-8.

Will Alex get a chance now to play himself back into the rotation after two 6 minute games?

jv001
11-30-2019, 10:09 AM
We will miss Cassius. He’s our one wing who can do it all. Shoot, drive, defend, rebound. It’s an opportunity for the other guys to step up just like Baker did last night.

Jack with 8 minutes. Alex with 6. It’s very interesting watching Coach tinker with the lineup. It’s basically 7-8 guys but not always the same 7-8.

Will Alex get a chance now to play himself back into the rotation after two 6 minute games?

I certainly agree we will miss Cassius. The kid has a well rounded game and I've enjoyed watching him play. I like the killer look with little or no emotion. Not too high and not too low. I wish him a quick recovery but hamstring injuries can linger. All you have to do is look at some of the skilled NFL players. Adam Thielen and Tyreek Hill have dealt with sprained hamstrings this season. They've missed multiple weeks with that injury. I would hate to see Cassius come back too soon only to miss conference games as well as tournament time. Get well Cassius and we'll see you again this season. GoDuke!

UrinalCake
11-30-2019, 10:10 AM
It wasn't the blowout win we would have liked, but hopefully a building block type of performance. Obviously great to see Baker break out and Hurt get his offense going too. I thought Baker's defense was fine, it's usually what we point to as the reason he doesn't get more burn but he brings a ton of energy on that side of the ball and he made some solid plays. He does have some physical limitations and gets beat, but he's continuing to learn the system. Goldwire also had his hands on a lot of defensive plays. If he could just hit a wide open three, like at a Tyler Thornton level, then he would be in the regular rotation and Tre could rest maybe 10 minutes a game. But given the one-dimensionalness of so many of our players which we've been discussing all season (some guys only provide defense, some only provide offense) I think we're going to be juggling lineups and minutes all season based on matchups.

On to a brutal week against two tough opponents. Hopefully we can step up our game and grind out a couple wins. If not, I'm at least hoping to see continued improvement both individually and as a team. We still need another player (ideally two) who can handle the ball besides Tre. The book is out that if you cut him off then our offense just stalls. Stanley's injury is a real bummer. Look to me at first like he jumped too early and had to lay it in instead of dunking, but that might have been caused by the injury happening earlier in the play. Really a freak type of injury, no contact or anything.

Steven43
11-30-2019, 10:37 AM
Goldwire also had his hands on a lot of defensive plays. If he could just hit a wide open three, like at a Tyler Thornton level, then he would be in the regular rotation and Tre could rest maybe 10 minutes a game.
Your comment about Thornton was intriguing so I went back and took a look at his stats. Holy moly, he shot 38.5% from three for his career at Duke!! I was expecting it to be around 29%. The standard for what we as Duke fans have come to accept for 3-point shooting has fallen so much that it has skewed my memory.

I had thought of Thornton as a poor 3-point shooter, but his percentage would have led our team last year, right? Granted, Thornton could not create his own shot and was getting wide-open threes — much like Tre last year — but still. This little factoid about Thornton is a real eye-opener.

Furniture
11-30-2019, 10:46 AM
A couple of games ago many loved this team and were raving about Moore, Tre, Carey and Cassius and really dissing Hurt. We are now in end of the world mode for some. Baker and Hurt had great games last night and I think what happens when they all have great games? What I mean is that this team has a huge up side. They will have their ups and downs but the potential is there.

jv001
11-30-2019, 11:07 AM
It wasn't the blowout win we would have liked, but hopefully a building block type of performance. Obviously great to see Baker break out and Hurt get his offense going too. I thought Baker's defense was fine, it's usually what we point to as the reason he doesn't get more burn but he brings a ton of energy on that side of the ball and he made some solid plays. He does have some physical limitations and gets beat, but he's continuing to learn the system. Goldwire also had his hands on a lot of defensive plays. If he could just hit a wide open three, like at a Tyler Thornton level, then he would be in the regular rotation and Tre could rest maybe 10 minutes a game. But given the one-dimensionalness of so many of our players which we've been discussing all season (some guys only provide defense, some only provide offense) I think we're going to be juggling lineups and minutes all season based on matchups.

On to a brutal week against two tough opponents. Hopefully we can step up our game and grind out a couple wins. If not, I'm at least hoping to see continued improvement both individually and as a team. Stanley's injury is a real bummer. Look to me at first like he jumped too early and had to lay it in instead of dunking, but that might have been caused by the injury happening earlier in the play. Really a freak type of injury, no contact or anything.

Win or lose this week, I'm am looking for improvement from our young Duke team. I thought Javin played better this game, even though he had some Javin moments. I hope he can build on this slight improvement. I think the coaches and players are doing Javin a disservice by passing the ball to him down low because he doesn't have the skill to dribble one or two times to get to the basket and he can't take the ball up over defenders because he's not strong enough to shoot over them or through them. His . jumping ability comes from getting a running start and the rules don't allow you to do that with the ball in your hands. He played pretty well late season last year and maybe we get that from him this season. Joey Baker played a great game and we surely needed it. Matthew had 18 points in the first half but only 2 in the 2nd half. But Joey played pretty evenly with 8 points in both halves with 2 threes in each half and I thought his defense was pretty good. Their little point guard was hard to stay in front of which caused problems for our defense. We did a better job with it when Coach K went to a smaller lineup which included Goldwire. A player I think a player that can make us much better is Wendell Moore. He's a talented player that can do a lot of things but the one thing he seems to be missing is the outside shot. Right now his offense is to drive the lane every time he gets the ball. I think it was Troublemaker that said he hesitates when he receives a pass and I've seen that as well. He's thinking too much and not reacting to the play that the defense is giving him. The ball stops moving in a positive manner when Wendell receives it. Last night I saw Tre pass him up two or three times and throw the ball to another player. It makes me wonder if Tre sees the same thing we see. Moore is a very talented player but he can't be a ball stopper. If he's in the lineup with 2 of these players; Jack, Javin and Goldwire, our chances of scoring go way down if he stops the ball because not only do we have to deal with the defense, the shot clock comes into play. There's lots of things the entire team can work on to improve and I'm sure the coaching staff will help these young players get better. We may not see the improvement as quick as we would like because It's going to be a quick turn-around before we play the Spartans and then have to play VT. But the end result is what's important. This is going to be an interesting week for our Duke team but we won't know all there is to know about the 2019-2020 Duke team until Feb-March. I will try to temper my expectations a little and wait to see the finished product. Keeping in mind that things could be worse, as we could be like the cheating team down the road who has no honor and will win at all costs. We win with class and we lose with class and for that I'm so Thankful.

GoDuke!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-30-2019, 11:08 AM
We will miss Cassius. He’s our one wing who can do it all. Shoot, drive, defend, rebound. It’s an opportunity for the other guys to step up just like Baker did last night.

Jack with 8 minutes. Alex with 6. It’s very interesting watching Coach tinker with the lineup. It’s basically 7-8 guys but not always the same 7-8.

Will Alex get a chance now to play himself back into the rotation after two 6 minute games?

One wing to rule them all?

53n206
11-30-2019, 12:40 PM
As for K saying we're not a 25 team. I respectfully disagree. Has he seen the field? It's the downest year that I remember.

Yes, not much strength showing up so far. Michigan? But Duke mot showing much so far. That fast, good defense we started the season with does not now exist. Any team with big guys can score inside at will, and with time to decide whether to score from the right or left side of the basket - though ,it seems to me, theft side is preferred. Of course our coaches see this. The question is whether they have options to contain our opponents inside attacks.

3rd Dukie
11-30-2019, 12:57 PM
I like this team better than last year’s team. Last year was exciting, primarily because of Zion Williamson, but the style of play was frustrating. We shot (and missed) what seemed like too many threes, though I haven’t looked at the actual numbers. I also disliked the hero ball aspect of more than a few crucial late-game moments. And I didn’t care for one particular player having a sky-high usage rate. That’s not Duke Basketball. Oh, and Cam made me nervous as hell every time he touched the ball. Additionally, the Joey Baker saga was maddening.

Overall, I think this team plays with more togetherness.

Great post, Steven! I surely do agree on all points.

roywhite
11-30-2019, 02:03 PM
Season to date stats after Winthrop

https://goduke.com/documents/2019/11/29/DukeCombined.pdf

35.2% 3-point shooting as a team

sagegrouse
11-30-2019, 02:32 PM
Season to date stats after Winthrop

https://goduke.com/documents/2019/11/29/DukeCombined.pdf

35.2% 3-point shooting as a team

Ten guys, mirabile dictu, playing 12 or more minutes per game.

Listen to Quants
11-30-2019, 02:41 PM
Freshman often play like you'd expect a freshman to play and that's what we're seeing with this group of kids. They have their ups and downs from game to game and at times even within the same game.

If they're still making the same mistakes over and over again by the halfway point of the season then we'll have a problem, but for now sit back and watch the growth of this team.

Boy, do I think this is right. They often look like they are playing faster than they think. Fine, they're freshmen (mostly). Classically the shock of the transition to a higher level is the speed of the game. Even with all the higher level bball they play now, they still have not played fully organized defenses with D1 talent much. If the aim is to do well in March, then this seems just right to me for Nov/Dec.

jv001
11-30-2019, 02:42 PM
Season to date stats after Winthrop

https://goduke.com/documents/2019/11/29/DukeCombined.pdf

35.2% 3-point shooting as a team

Thanks roywhite for the stats. Some interesting things I saw:
Assists ytd= 124, Turnovers= 122/ (this is alarming).
FT%= .67% (not so good and has hurt us already).
Rebounds= 43.2 pg and +11.3 pg (good)
Steals= 9.6 pg (good)
Blocks= 6.3 pg (good), Goldwire even getting into the action.

And as you mentioned three pointers 35.2%. Great to see this part of our game improving.

GoDuke!

soflabluedevil
11-30-2019, 03:08 PM
Yeah, I was very impressed with Moore when he was playing PG against Central Arkansas. But I haven’t seen that athletic, confident, skillful version of him since. Obviously, the potential is there, though.

Moore will be fine. Javin will always give us 2 pts, 2-3 rebs and 4 fouls in 15 minutes or less.

soflabluedevil
11-30-2019, 03:13 PM
As for K saying we're not a 25 team. I respectfully disagree. Has he seen the field? It's the downest year that I remember.

K may be right, if only because there are 60 teams who can beat anyone if they have a good game. This team will be in top 15 by year end but will have a ton of close games.

Indoor66
11-30-2019, 03:14 PM
Your comment about Thornton was intriguing so I went back and took a look at his stats. Holy moly, he shot 38.5% from three for his career at Duke!! I was expecting it to be around 29%. The standard for what we as Duke fans have come to accept for 3-point shooting has fallen so much that it has skewed my memory.

I had thought of Thornton as a poor 3-point shooter, but his percentage would have led our team last year, right? Granted, Thornton could not create his own shot and was getting wide-open threes — much like Tre last year — but still. This little factoid about Thornton is a real eye-opener.

The 3 point shot is longer now.

TheOldBattleship
11-30-2019, 03:21 PM
My quick take on Wendell, since he's going to be the key player that needs to step up during the time that Cassius is out. (Ironically, even though Joey's played much fewer minutes, I have total confidence in him as a starter. Joey's going to hit threes, put up 120+ offensive ratings [as compared to Wendell's sub-90 offensive rating for the season on high usage!], and play passable defense.)

Wendell so far has shown an inability to function in the three main things Duke runs on offense: the horns set, the floppy set, and motion. For example, there was a floppy action last night in which Wendell curled into the lane to receive the pass, and he's open to shoot. 100% of the time, the Duke perimeter player takes the shot there or if the defense is collapsing hard on him, kicks out for an open three. Instead, Wendell pauses with the ball in his hands. He does nothing, allowing the defense to reset and forcing him to create something out of nothing. (The possession ended badly but I can't remember whether it was a turnover or missed shot).

Anyway, that's pretty typical of Wendell not doing the right thing in these sets or in motion. There *is* one set piece that Wendell likes and can function in right now, and that's spread pick-n-roll with him as the ballhandler up top. To clarify, that means Duke puts 3 stationary shooters on the wings (stationary for an easy read for the ballhandler), and then Vernon or Javin comes up to set a ball screen for him to drive into open space, and he'll either score at the rim or kick out depending on how the defense reacts. He's actually pretty good making reads and being efficient out of spread pick-n-roll, and up until recently, it was responsible for almost all of his scoring.

I think to get Wendell going and to make him effective while Cassius is out, Duke needs to accommodate him and run this set piece for him more often. The great thing is that Joey's emergence dovetails well with this suggestion. You put Matthew, Joey, and Tre (who has improved his shooting) as the stationary shooters on the wing while Vernon comes up to set the ball screen for Wendell. I believe Wendell will produce 120 offensive ratings (personal and team) out of this setup.

I really like this take on Moore in our various sets, and think it plays into what his biggest weakness is right now: quick decision-making. He's been really terrific when the decisions before him are pretty straightforward and unfold at a more leisurely pace, hence his success at running the spread p&r. That's one of the few situations this year where we're legitimately creating tons of space for a ballhandler on offense. The trouble comes when teams junk up how they defend that play; also, that way of playing can marginalize some of our best options (Carey postups/Jones generally, particularly) on offense, so we're going to be structurally limited in running it this year.

When he's needed to operate in tight quarters, as in the horns set or as the curler in the floppy action, he just is taking a bit too long to make choices as to what he wants to do with the ball, and opportunities tend to vanish on him. It almost seems like, because he's got eight zillion options racing through his head, he overthinks and loses the chance of even making the simple play. (As a good contrast, Stanley uses the fact that he's not as creative with the ball and has fewer options in those situations to his advantage. He's not trying to make anything wild happen. He either gets the rim, rises for a shot, or kicks back out.) This is a totally natural thing for a freshman, especially one who isn't a completely natural playmaker, to run into; even Jones has been having some decision-making trouble in these situation.

I wonder, though, if it would be better long-term to keep pushing Moore here with these kinds of actions to get smoother with his decision-making. It'll definitely make for some ugly offense in the short term, but if he DOES start to figure it out, it would ultimately give our offense a whole other dimension come March (and it would be really terrific for his offense in a long-term NBA sense). This strikes me as the kind of thing that can only come with in-game reps, so I wouldn't be surprised to see K continue to push it, here, even at the cost of early success.

Billy Dat
11-30-2019, 04:25 PM
We will miss Cassius. He’s our one wing who can do it all. Shoot, drive, defend, rebound. It’s an opportunity for the other guys to step up just like Baker did last night. Will Alex get a chance now to play himself back into the rotation after two 6 minute games?

Yeah, the first takeaway was concern over Cassius getting knocked out. I agree that if he's only gone a month and comes back to where he left off, then we may benefit in other guys getting more playing time and being able to contribute and provide options. Of course, if Cassius was going to continue on his consistency trajectory, then it's a real shame we lose him for any amount of time, let alone enough to have a major impact on how good he'd have gotten this season.


I think Coach K is trying to take the entitlement attitude away from our guys. He even told one of tonight's announcers that this team inherited the number one ranking and hadn't earned it. I don't think any of our guys will come out flat against Michigan State. Not if he wants to play meaningful minutes. GoDuke!

I think K sometimes says stuff like that to also remind fans of how hard it is to be a great team year after year and that it has to be earned each year. The less talent, the harder the group needs to work to be uphold expected standards. We are lucky that K still burns hot enough to try and forge those standards out of his raw material squad.


Freshman often play like you'd expect a freshman to play and that's what we're seeing with this group of kids. They have their ups and downs from game to game and at times even within the same game.

Yes, glad to see a couple of good games for Hurt and the emergence of Baker. Of course, it coincided with a weaker game from Wendell. Cassius was already a level above these guys from a consistency of production aspect...we need all 3 of them to be game-to-game productive.

I am admiring Baker's confidence and "free" play. He may be occasionally impulsive and hyper, but I prefer his mistakes of aggression to AOC's mistakes of timidity.

Hurt was great in the first half, but did kind of disappear. As defenses adjust to him, he has to keep pushing and stay aggressive.

Jordan had a Jordan game, we need some smaller speed to match-up and he made a bunch of plays and got Tre some rest. When we get any scoring from him, it's such a big lift.

Quiet game from Jack - another guy who I thought was on the rise and had 2 weak games in a row.


The glimmer of hope is that Tre channels his inner Stones Jr. and gets his head in the game.

Waiting for the day when Javin stops playing entitled - strong words I know, but I think fits how I seem him playing right now.

Yeah, I was very impressed with Moore when he was playing PG against Central Arkansas. But I haven’t seen that athletic, confident, skillful version of him since. Obviously, the potential is there, though.

I thought these were pretty hot takes as I think Tre's been pretty good, and sometimes great, all year. I don't see entitlement in Javin's play considering that he's never really had a title..he's always been a sub...if anything I think he's just been bad but not for lack of thinking he already earned something. I agree that Wendell was rough these past two games but I thought he was a stud in NY which was after the Central Arkansas game.


I think to get Wendell going and to make him effective while Cassius is out, Duke needs to accommodate him and run this set piece (the hall ball screen) for him more often. The great thing is that Joey's emergence dovetails well with this suggestion. You put Matthew, Joey, and Tre (who has improved his shooting) as the stationary shooters on the wing while Vernon comes up to set the ball screen for Wendell. I believe Wendell will produce 120 offensive ratings (personal and team) out of this setup.

Defenses have all been completely blitzing the high screens and horns actions when Tre has the ball. I think they are desperate to get it out of his hands. Maybe Wendell would benefit from the attention Tre is getting and get a little more breathing room up top if we ran more of these sets for him. It's putting a lot of trust in a guy who has been spastic but I agree that we need to try stuff because when they blitz Tre, the offense takes another 5-7 seconds to re-set and then we are rushing.

Speaking of Tre, the Jones v Jones PG duel in this game was a lot of fun to watch, but was getting sick of the announcer calling Winthrop's Jones, "the Agitant!" I also thought Winthrop's other primary ballhander, Chandler Vaudrin, was a nice tough player.

When we needed big buckets, Tre got the ball to Vernon and he went to work. We really need to work harder to get him touches where he can exploit his size and skill on the block because he is extremely effective down there and we go for long stretches without him being involved. That's on him as much as the team, do your homework early, Vern, get position and the team needs to have their head up.

As of right now, with Cassius out and a few guys rising and falling, I feel like we are back to just Tre and Vernon as the guys we can count on delivering every game. Will anyone else be able to be that guy every game, or will we literally be watching a seasons-long musical chairs depending on match-up and whose got the yams that night?

Billy Dat
11-30-2019, 06:10 PM
One more thing, do we need to discuss this quote at all:

“Part of it, we had some other issues with our program,” Krzyzewski said, “with some health issues. I had a little health issue for the last game that I was not myself. I had some … anyway I’m good, but that day and that night, I was not good. So, part of that is we’re human beings. We’re not going to be perfect even though lot of people expect us to be.”

I guess we can only assume that coaches are going to get sick and such and not think it's something more than that, considering K's age and all. Part of me wished he hadn't said it because it also sounds like an excuse and we all know how that goes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgNnSqvvsWc&t=3m33s

Steven43
11-30-2019, 06:23 PM
”I had a little health issue for the last game that I was not myself. I had some … anyway I’m good, but that day and that night, I was not good.”

He’s referring to the SFA game, right? Did anyone notice odd behavior from K during or after the game? Did he not seem like himself?

Of course UNC fans will say that he’s just trying to make excuses for a loss. They’re so predictable in their immature and obsessive hatred of K.

kshepinthehouse
11-30-2019, 08:26 PM
He’s referring to the SFA game, right? Did anyone notice odd behavior from K during or after the game? Did he not seem like himself?

Of course UNC fans will say that he’s just trying to make excuses for a loss. They’re so predictable in their immature and obsessive hatred of K.

We would say the same thing if Roy said it...

Green Wave Dukie
11-30-2019, 08:33 PM
We would say the same thing if Roy said it...


Agree.

Sure I’ll get flamed for this, but if he’s not “trying to make excuses for a loss”, what exactly is he doing?

Steven43
11-30-2019, 08:36 PM
We would say the same thing if Roy said it...

The main point I was trying to make is that UNC fans are obsessed with viciously denigrating Coach K. I refuse to believe Duke fans are anywhere close to that level of outright hatred towards Roy. Have you gone on Inside Carolina? Have you read the despicable things MANY Heels fans say about our coach? It goes way beyond typical fan banter towards a rival team’s coach.

SavDukeGrad
11-30-2019, 09:19 PM
The main point I was trying to make is that UNC fans are obsessed with viciously denigrating Coach K. I refuse to believe Duke fans are anywhere close to that level of outright hatred towards Roy. Have you gone on Inside Carolina? Have you read the despicable things MANY Heels fans say about our coach? It goes way beyond typical fan banter towards a rival team’s coach.

This post is spot on, Steven43. Agree completely.

duke96
11-30-2019, 10:38 PM
Agree.

Sure I’ll get flamed for this, but if he’s not “trying to make excuses for a loss”, what exactly is he doing?

Perhaps he felt he had not sufficiently shown the team (publicly) that accepts his share of the blame for the performance against SFA.

ChillinDuke
12-01-2019, 12:08 AM
<snip>

I thought these were pretty hot takes as I think Tre's been pretty good, and sometimes great, all year. I don't see entitlement in Javin's play considering that he's never really had a title..he's always been a sub...if anything I think he's just been bad but not for lack of thinking he already earned something. I agree that Wendell was rough these past two games but I thought he was a stud in NY which was after the Central Arkansas game.

<snip>


Billy, you're one of my favorite posters but this was not a hot take for me. Through 8 games, Javin's demeanor has been largely bull-in-a-china-shop and then appealing to refs like they're on drugs when they call him. He's been sped up, he's missing free throws, his defense has not been grounded and way too jumpy (literally leaving his feet). The list goes on.

None of this is to say Javin can't improve. It's possible. As Kedsy often states, maybe he takes a Zoubekian leap. But I don't remember Zoubek's demeanor being quite so "it's not me it's you" when appealing to refs. Javin needs to chill out. He has been completely not good. Notice I didn't say bad. But he has not been good.

I don't think it's a hot take at this point. I recognize calling him "entitled" is strong and I said as much in my post(s). But he's acting like the refs should know better when they whistle him. That strikes me as a really silly stance from Javin, a senior captain, whether or not he truly feels or believes that we will never know.

I hope for more from him. But through 8 games I'm very very much disappointed and discouraged by his play, almost universally.

Here's looking forward to better days.

- Chillin

arnie
12-01-2019, 06:44 AM
The main point I was trying to make is that UNC fans are obsessed with viciously denigrating Coach K. I refuse to believe Duke fans are anywhere close to that level of outright hatred towards Roy. Have you gone on Inside Carolina? Have you read the despicable things MANY Heels fans say about our coach? It goes way beyond typical fan banter towards a rival team’s coach.

It’s not just in IC. The idiots scream it from the mountaintops all while ignoring their own foibles. They all have that “what me worry?” look.

roywhite
12-01-2019, 07:02 AM
It’s not just in IC. The idiots scream it from the mountaintops all while ignoring their own foibles. They all have that “what me worry?” look.

It takes an attitude like that to have the academic/athletic scandal that UNC-Cheat had and then shamelessly weasel their way out of most penalties.

HereBeforeCoachK
12-01-2019, 07:06 AM
The main point I was trying to make is that UNC fans are obsessed with viciously denigrating Coach K. I refuse to believe Duke fans are anywhere close to that level of outright hatred towards Roy. Have you gone on Inside Carolina? Have you read the despicable things MANY Heels fans say about our coach? It goes way beyond typical fan banter towards a rival team’s coach.

It's definitely one sided. It was clear to me - having lived through Dean's Myth dominating Duke for years...then watching first Foster, and then Coach K flip the script, that Tar Heel nation was far more obsessed with Duke than Duke fans ever were with UNC, and far nastier, and far more ignorant in their comments. Duke fans don't like it when the Cheats have a better team and a better year, but Cheat fans simply meltdown and cannot handle it when Duke dominates.

rocketeli
12-01-2019, 08:05 AM
Re K being ill: an explanation is not the same thing as an excuse. A person can say "I performed poorly because of x,y, and z" without implying or stating the further part that makes it an excuse "therefore I am blameless for whatever happened." I think everyone recognized that the coaching staff performed poorly in the SFA game and I also think Coach K was trying to let people know that they knew it too. It makes sense. If a person just got some health news that required them to make a lot of decisions about whether they or a loved one should have this or that surgery or treatment, they would be only human if they weren't a little distracted.
Also, the other posters are spot on about Cryolina fans. They definitely take their hatred of Duke to a cruder and more intense, trollish level than Duke fans do their feelings about them.
It's funny to think that Dean Smith has been retired for 22+ years(and dead for at least five of those) and they've been through three coaches after that, and that third one is in his 17th season (and arguably more successful), but some Cheat fans still can't get over him. But of course, we might be the same way about Coach K...

Billy Dat
12-01-2019, 02:17 PM
Billy, you're one of my favorite posters...

Please, stop right there, you've said all the needs saying...


...but this was not a hot take for me. Through 8 games, Javin's demeanor has been largely bull-in-a-china-shop and then appealing to refs like they're on drugs when they call him. He's been sped up, he's missing free throws, his defense has not been grounded and way too jumpy (literally leaving his feet). The list goes on.

None of this is to say Javin can't improve. It's possible. As Kedsy often states, maybe he takes a Zoubekian leap. But I don't remember Zoubek's demeanor being quite so "it's not me it's you" when appealing to refs. Javin needs to chill out. He has been completely not good. Notice I didn't say bad. But he has not been good.

I don't think it's a hot take at this point. I recognize calling him "entitled" is strong and I said as much in my post(s). But he's acting like the refs should know better when they whistle him. That strikes me as a really silly stance from Javin, a senior captain, whether or not he truly feels or believes that we will never know.

I hope for more from him. But through 8 games I'm very very much disappointed and discouraged by his play, almost universally.

Here's looking forward to better days.

- Chillin

I agree he's been worse than we all hoped, I just didn't think "entitled" was the right description as the kid seems humble and desperate to do well. But, it doesn't matter much what we call him, the problems are the same. Yes, here's to better days.

sagegrouse
12-01-2019, 05:54 PM
Re K being ill: an explanation is not the same thing as an excuse. A person can say "I performed poorly because of x,y, and z" without implying or stating the further part that makes it an excuse "therefore I am blameless for whatever happened." I think everyone recognized that the coaching staff performed poorly in the SFA game and I also think Coach K was trying to let people know that they knew it too. It makes sense. If a person just got some health news that required them to make a lot of decisions about whether they or a loved one should have this or that surgery or treatment, they would be only human if they weren't a little distracted.
Also, the other posters are spot on about Cryolina fans. They definitely take their hatred of Duke to a cruder and more intense, trollish level than Duke fans do their feelings about them.
It's funny to think that Dean Smith has been retired for 22+ years(and dead for at least five of those) and they've been through three coaches after that, and that third one is in his 17th season (and arguably more successful), but some Cheat fans still can't get over him. But of course, we might be the same way about Coach K...

I got lots of obscene views abouth Carolina fans, but the worst offenders have never set foot on the UNC campus. Do we call them "Walmart fans," or is that an insult to the retailer? IMHO (where the H got filched in the Daily Tar Heel office), many UNC fans are decent people.

uh_no
12-01-2019, 05:58 PM
I got lots of obscene views abouth Carolina fans, but the worst offenders have never set foot on the UNC campus. Do we call them "Walmart fans," or is that an insult to the retailer? IMHO (where the H got filched in the Daily Tar Heel office), many UNC fans are decent people.

i know many decent people who went to unc. i can't speak for them now. 😁

TruBlu
12-01-2019, 06:36 PM
One more thing, do we need to discuss this quote at all:

“Part of it, we had some other issues with our program,” Krzyzewski said, “with some health issues. I had a little health issue for the last game that I was not myself. I had some … anyway I’m good, but that day and that night, I was not good. So, part of that is we’re human beings. We’re not going to be perfect even though lot of people expect us to be.”

I guess we can only assume that coaches are going to get sick and such and not think it's something more than that, considering K's age and all. Part of me wished he hadn't said it because it also sounds like an excuse and we all know how that goes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgNnSqvvsWc&t=3m33s

To be honest, I felt a little ill during and after the game myself.:p

jimsumner
12-01-2019, 08:57 PM
Javin DeLaurier has never struck me as entitled in any way, shape or form. Just a bizarre thought, IMO.

Sometimes he needs to slow down and let the game come to him. He can get in a loop in which the harder he tries, the more mistakes he makes, which makes him try harder, which leads to more mistakes and it can easily spiral out of control. But I trust he'll figure it out.

TheOldBattleship
12-02-2019, 01:10 AM
Javin DeLaurier has never struck me as entitled in any way, shape or form. Just a bizarre thought, IMO.

Sometimes he needs to slow down and let the game come to him. He can get in a loop in which the harder he tries, the more mistakes he makes, which makes him try harder, which leads to more mistakes and it can easily spiral out of control. But I trust he'll figure it out.

Totally agree here. The problem is not that Javin is expecting things to come to him easy and not working hard. The problem is that he's not particularly skilled in many of the things that people see as counting as basketball skill (dribbling and shooting), so he works insanely hard to make up for that in other areas and that often comes off as frenetic. He's pretty clearly frustrated with his play thus far, and that's not helping. But the effort is 1000% not the problem.

It would be really nice if the game slowed down for him a bit and he didn't feel like he had to do everything, especially defensively (my own sense is that he's tried to step into the Zion be-impossibly-everywhere-in-help role on that end, and he's just not good enough (who is?)). He can be such a valuable player when he plays within himself. If he can figure it out a bit, that would be massive for this team. There are some things that he's just never going to do well, but that's totally ok.

kAzE
12-02-2019, 03:37 AM
Javin is taking a lot of flak right now, and I've been a part of the conversation, but let's not forget that he is more than capable of providing good minutes in a backup role. When Zion went down with the shoe explosion last year, Javin had probably the best stretch of his career. There was a period of 8 or 9 games where he literally did not miss a field goal, and came within 1 make of tying the ACC record for consecutive makes. Granted, pretty much all of his attempts are within 2 feet of the rim, but his 74.7% shooting from all of last year is probably more indicative of what he's capable of, rather than the paltry 34.6% that he's shot thus far in 2019-20.

He's also fouling at what seems to be the highest rate of his career thus far, which is sort of the opposite of what usually happens with big men as they progress further in to their college careers.

All I'm trying to say is, his extremely poor performance thus far appears to be something that should improve, given what he was able to do as recently as last season. He was a good rotation player last year. I'm not holding out a ton of hope, but the stats suggest he can, and should, do much better going forward.

Indoor66
12-02-2019, 07:36 AM
Javin is taking a lot of flak right now, and I've been a part of the conversation, but let's not forget that he is more than capable of providing good minutes in a backup role. When Zion went down with the shoe explosion last year, Javin had probably the best stretch of his career. There was a period of 8 or 9 games where he literally did not miss a field goal, and came within 1 make of tying the ACC record for consecutive makes. Granted, pretty much all of his attempts are within 2 feet of the rim, but his 74.7% shooting from all of last year is probably more indicative of what he's capable of, rather than the paltry 34.6% that he's shot thus far in 2019-20.

He's also fouling at what seems to be the highest rate of his career thus far, which is sort of the opposite of what usually happens with big men as they progress further in to their college careers.

All I'm trying to say is, his extremely poor performance thus far appears to be something that should improve, given what he was able to do as recently as last season. He was a good rotation player last year. I'm not holding out a ton of hope, but the stats suggest he can, and should, do much better going forward.

Maybe who is playing around you makes a difference in performance with a guy like Javin.

DukieInBrasil
12-02-2019, 10:39 AM
Javin is taking a lot of flak right now, and I've been a part of the conversation, but let's not forget that he is more than capable of providing good minutes in a backup role. When Zion went down with the shoe explosion last year, Javin had probably the best stretch of his career. There was a period of 8 or 9 games where he literally did not miss a field goal, and came within 1 make of tying the ACC record for consecutive makes. Granted, pretty much all of his attempts are within 2 feet of the rim, but his 74.7% shooting from all of last year is probably more indicative of what he's capable of, rather than the paltry 34.6% that he's shot thus far in 2019-20.

He's also fouling at what seems to be the highest rate of his career thus far, which is sort of the opposite of what usually happens with big men as they progress further in to their college careers.

All I'm trying to say is, his extremely poor performance thus far appears to be something that should improve, given what he was able to do as recently as last season. He was a good rotation player last year. I'm not holding out a ton of hope, but the stats suggest he can, and should, do much better going forward.

He came within 1 make of breaking the record, he did in fact tie it.
I agree with the rest of what you say. The only thing he hasn't improved upon so far is shooting the ball, and foul rate (but i don't have stats on that to verify). Otherwise, his value is about the same as it was for most of last year. It's disappointing that improvement hasn't been obvious, and the collapse of his FG% reduces his overall value somewhat, but as a backup C/PF he is still a decent option. However, since Carey is really our only other post presence option, this team needs Javin to be a little bit more than simply a serviceable back-up that fouls a lot. If he could be a +serviceable back-up without an insane foul rate, i think we might be talking about the C/PF position being a strength overall for Duke. This is something Javin ought to be able to achieve, and in fact has achieved it periodically in his career at Duke. Achieving it consistently from here on out is the challenge.

jv001
12-02-2019, 11:11 AM
Javin DeLaurier has never struck me as entitled in any way, shape or form. Just a bizarre thought, IMO.

Sometimes he needs to slow down and let the game come to him. He can get in a loop in which the harder he tries, the more mistakes he makes, which makes him try harder, which leads to more mistakes and it can easily spiral out of control. But I trust he'll figure it out.

As I said in an earlier post, Javin has been putting too much pressure on himself. From what I read coming into this season, Javin was having great workouts with Coach James and I believe he expected to begin the season doing many things well. However, it's different come game time. The game speeds up and adrenaline does as well. As Jim put it, the harder he tries, the more mistakes he makes and it spirals out of control. Javin has certain things he can do well when he's under control. He can be a good rebounder, he can block shots, he can run the floor and he knows the Duke man to man defense. It's mostly on the offensive side of the ball that he has troubles. He doesn't have good hands, he has a hard time finishing through contact, he's not a good low post option and he's a very poor shooter. I know the young man wants to do those things better but he's not going to get there anytime soon. The team needs him to do the things which he does well consistently. Vernon is going to need some rest and Javin is the logical choice as his replacement. He needs to come in with the mind set that he's going to play well in short spurts and not get ahead of himself. I think he can do that if he'll just stop playing like a runaway train. I don't think he plays entitled. That's not Javin's problem.

GoDuke!

English
12-03-2019, 02:30 PM
He came within 1 make of breaking the record, he did in fact tie it.
I agree with the rest of what you say. The only thing he hasn't improved upon so far is shooting the ball, and foul rate (but i don't have stats on that to verify). Otherwise, his value is about the same as it was for most of last year. It's disappointing that improvement hasn't been obvious, and the collapse of his FG% reduces his overall value somewhat, but as a backup C/PF he is still a decent option. However, since Carey is really our only other post presence option, this team needs Javin to be a little bit more than simply a serviceable back-up that fouls a lot. If he could be a +serviceable back-up without an insane foul rate, i think we might be talking about the C/PF position being a strength overall for Duke. This is something Javin ought to be able to achieve, and in fact has achieved it periodically in his career at Duke. Achieving it consistently from here on out is the challenge.

I don't want to pile on, but this statement has me scratching my head. The only things Javin hasn't improved upon from last year to this year are shooting the ball and foul rate? So, that means he's improved on everything else? I'm confused. I wouldn't suggest he's regressed across the board because I simply haven't done the analysis to reach that conclusion, but I can't imagine there are many things he's improved upon this season. He was a solid rotation player last season who provided plus minutes, and this season he's a major liability on both ends.

Of course, last season showed us that he's capable of being a nice piece, so there's hope he can improve from what the team's getting now.

Kedsy
12-03-2019, 04:22 PM
I don't want to pile on, but this statement has me scratching my head. The only things Javin hasn't improved upon from last year to this year are shooting the ball and foul rate? So, that means he's improved on everything else? I'm confused. I wouldn't suggest he's regressed across the board because I simply haven't done the analysis to reach that conclusion, but I can't imagine there are many things he's improved upon this season. He was a solid rotation player last season who provided plus minutes, and this season he's a major liability on both ends.

Of course, last season showed us that he's capable of being a nice piece, so there's hope he can improve from what the team's getting now.

You are wrong. DiB is right. Here are Javin's stats from last season and this, taking away shooting percentages and foul rate:

PER 40 MINUTES


Year Pts rebs assts stls blks
2019 9.4 10.7 1.1 2.1 3.2
2020 10.9 13.2 1.5 2.3 1.5


ADVANCED STATS


Year OR% DR% AST% STL% BLK% TO% USG%
2019 11.6 16.3 4.1 2.9 7.9 23.7 10.1
2020 13.8 22.1 5.8 3.0 3.5 18.2 18.2


So, his block rate is worse. But every other non-shooting-related, non-fouling-related stat is better. Some are significantly better.

flyingdutchdevil
12-03-2019, 04:51 PM
You are wrong. DiB is right. Here are Javin's stats from last season and this, taking away shooting percentages and foul rate:

PER 40 MINUTES


Year Pts rebs assts stls blks
2019 9.4 10.7 1.1 2.1 3.2
2020 10.9 13.2 1.5 2.3 1.5


ADVANCED STATS


Year OR% DR% AST% STL% BLK% TO% USG%
2019 11.6 16.3 4.1 2.9 7.9 23.7 10.1
2020 13.8 22.1 5.8 3.0 3.5 18.2 18.2


So, his block rate is worse. But every other non-shooting-related, non-fouling-related stat is better. Some are significantly better.

If his shooting is worse, are we happy that his USG% is significantly up?

I like Javin. I really do. I think he's an asset to the team in a non-starter setting. But I don't see much of a "Zoubekian" impact coming from him this year.

BLPOG
12-04-2019, 10:39 AM
I got lots of obscene views abouth Carolina fans, but the worst offenders have never set foot on the UNC campus. Do we call them "Walmart fans," or is that an insult to the retailer? IMHO (where the H got filched in the Daily Tar Heel office), many UNC fans are decent people.

I say it's fine to refer to the Walmart fans as such. It's not a denigration of Walmart or the people that shop there, but rather a reference to the fact that the extent of their connections to the school and team are the shirts purchased at Walmart.

Kedsy
12-04-2019, 12:13 PM
If his shooting is worse, are we happy that his USG% is significantly up?

I like Javin. I really do. I think he's an asset to the team in a non-starter setting. But I don't see much of a "Zoubekian" impact coming from him this year.

At this point in 2009-10, people didn't see a "Zoubekian" impact coming from Zoubek, either.

I have to say, in Z's senior year, I found myself having very similar arguments on his behalf that I'm having for Javin now. People thought the Plumlees should play instead of Z and Lance Thomas. They thought Zoubek had bad hands and couldn't score and fouled too much. He was a senior and they didn't think he had any room to improve. I argued that he played very good positional defense, and that his per minute stats from 2008-09 and early 2009-10 were really good. Especially his offensive rebounding, which was elite. All he had to do, I said, was cut down on fouls and play more minutes.

That said, if Duke had lost to Baylor or Purdue, Brian Zoubek wouldn't be held up as such a shining light around here, either. I'm not saying Javin will bring a championship. But he's a good player who can contribute, as last night's game showed. Can Javin build on the Michigan State game moving forward? Can he stop fouling and play with confidence? Who knows? But it's certainly possible.

moonpie23
12-04-2019, 12:15 PM
here's hoping Jav can capitalize on this performance and gain confidence....

gep
12-05-2019, 11:22 PM
If his shooting is worse, are we happy that his USG% is significantly up?

I like Javin. I really do. I think he's an asset to the team in a non-starter setting. But I don't see much of a "Zoubekian" impact coming from him this year.


At this point in 2009-10, people didn't see a "Zoubekian" impact coming from Zoubek, either.

I have to say, in Z's senior year, I found myself having very similar arguments on his behalf that I'm having for Javin now. People thought the Plumlees should play instead of Z and Lance Thomas. They thought Zoubek had bad hands and couldn't score and fouled too much. He was a senior and they didn't think he had any room to improve. I argued that he played very good positional defense, and that his per minute stats from 2008-09 and early 2009-10 were really good. Especially his offensive rebounding, which was elite. All he had to do, I said, was cut down on fouls and play more minutes.

That said, if Duke had lost to Baylor or Purdue, Brian Zoubek wouldn't be held up as such a shining light around here, either. I'm not saying Javin will bring a championship. But he's a good player who can contribute, as last night's game showed. Can Javin build on the Michigan State game moving forward? Can he stop fouling and play with confidence? Who knows? But it's certainly possible.

This is exactly what I was thinking. I really don't think anyone here thought there would be a Zoubekian moment... ever.


here's hoping Jav can capitalize on this performance and gain confidence...

My first thought after the MState game. Could this be Jav's Zoubekian moment? I REALLY hope so.