MBB: Duke 81, Georgetown 73 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Gutty win. I liked it. We did what we needed to. Moore was fantastic.

[KandG]

Fun game to watch the young guys (especially Moore) grow, I guess, but that 2 hour 18 minute monstrosity had:

51 combined fouls
43 combined turnovers.

I was actually begging for stall ball with nine minutes to go in the second half, that's how much this game was making my eyes bleed.

Good win, nonetheless. No doubt plenty of future practice time will be devoted to attacking the press and cleaning up defensive mistakes.

[SavDukeGrad]

I revoke every nice thing I said about Dakich after the game last night.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Moore was awesome. Yurtseven the best player on the court. I don't think he missed but one shot in second half.

[kAzE]

Yikes, this was an ugly game to watch. One of the most frustrating wins I've watched in awhile.

I'm glad we were able to pull out the win, but we have a looooooot of room for improvement. I think Georgetown is really good. We were fortunate.

Moore was good, but he's still a turnover machine. 7 turnovers in this one. Gotta do better than that.

[fisheyes]

This is a really fun team to watch.
The defense in incredible, especially for early in the season.
K had a ton of options. I suspect that this year he will really show his coaching prowess in picking the right combination on a given night at a given moment. Last year was, heck, let 'em play, who needs to coach.
These kids are so young and are playing with tremendous poise.

[scottdude8]

Not pretty. But good teams win when it’s not pretty. We did that today.

Don’t overlook that, just like against Kansas, Tre made clutch FTs in the final minute again.

Wendell took a HUGE step today. Man we can be deep.

Jack White makes winning plays that don’t show up in the box score, and that’s alright. I’m trying to find the final plus/minus, but I have to think he was at least +10 despite only having a handful of points. What a glue guy and what a luxury for a young team to have him when we need him.

[Devilwin]

Fun game to watch the young guys (especially Moore) grow, I guess, but that 2 hour 28 minute monstrosity had:

51 combined fouls
43 combined turnovers.

I was actually begging for stall ball with nine minutes to go in the second half, that's how much this game was making my eyes bleed.

Good win, nonetheless. No doubt plenty of future practice time will be devoted to attacking the press and cleaning up defensive mistakes.

Especially happy to see the continued emergence of Moore and Stanley and Carey. Hurt is going to have a great break out game soon I feel. Tre was way off his game to say it kindly. They forced us into way too many turnovers. But the kids are very tough and resilient.

[Adaephon]

Great win. We definitely have a tough team this year. Some quick thoughts:

-We struggled with the press more than I expected. It seemed we figured it out the last few possessions, though, and Moore was able to get some good runs at the basket from quite a distance.

-Hurt has really disappeared. He hasn't been effective due to the physicality of the college game right now. He has too much skill to sit on the bench all season, but we need to figure out where he is most effective on offense.

-Wendell Moore has grown so much in just a few games. He has been playing great. We really need his secondary ball-handling on the floor and his ability to create offense. Cassius has been great getting some buckets off cuts, putbacks, and spot-up threes, but he seems to lose the ball in traffic when he drives, so Moore's ability to get in the lane and create is really important right now.

-O'Connell has regressed, unfortunately. He came out firing, but he had a couple jumpers that just weren't close tonight and doesn't seem as effective defensively as he did against Kansas.

-Javin is good at fouling I guess...

-Carey is a stud. His stroke from the line looked so good yesterday. He missed a lot tonight there, but he is just a load inside and has played solid defense.

-The refs made this game a real chore to watch. What an ugly game with so many whistles.

I'll take the win. Stephen F. Austin usually has a good team, so I am looking forward to the next one. Michigan State should be a great test. Looking for us to start a little better. We have really struggled to score at the start of games until we get in a bit of a groove. It's early, so we may just need to find the right chemistry.

-

[proelitedota]

Hurt needs about 15-20 lbs of weight. I'll gladly give some of mine to him.

[BlueDevil16]

Hurt didn’t see the court in the second half did he?

[Bob Green]

Tre was way off his game to say it kindly.

First half yes, 2nd half not so much.

[SouthernDukie]

I revoke every nice thing I said about Dakich after the game last night.

Beat me to it.

[scottdude8]

Free sporks for anyone who can get me a box score with +/-. Thought it was supposed to be on the official ones but doesn’t look like it. Would love to see what Jack’s was tonight.

[dukelifer]

Team grew up tonight. Came back after a horrible start and the young guys made plays. Really liked what Stanley did tonight. He is so active and a capable shooter when open. Moore’s best game by a mile. Carey again had an excellent night. And a shout out to Baker for making a couple very needed buckets when nothing was falling. K really tightened his lineup but he needed his best athletes out there. Team is getting better.

[duke4ever19]

I revoke every nice thing I said about Dakich after the game last night.

Dakich reminds me of this guy who used to be a "greeter" at my church. He'd post up by the entrance, slap on a big cheese grin, and force every person to shake his hand, while saying something just obnoxious enough to make you roll your eyes. He'd always make sure to use a bone-crusher handshake for every male, while never calling attention to it, but hoping you would say, "Ow." so he could say, "You can't shake a man's hand, son? Hahaha They don't make 'em like they used to. Good to see you!"

[Native]

I’m exhausted.

[FerryFor50]

Really looked like the Ewing strategy was to be as physical as possible with Duke and hope they were too soft to handle it.

At the start of the game, it looked like the right strategy. Duke was getting pushed around and couldn't get any offensive flow. Hurt and AOC especially couldn't handle the physicality and sat pretty much the entire second half.

So K went with his bulldogs - White, Jones, Moore, Carey, Stanley, Delaurier were about all you saw play in the 2nd half. I think Baker got some spot minutes, too.

They all toughed it out with some physical play of their own and managed to hold on against the Hoya press at the end, though I was getting nervous with the combination of physical play and some sloppy passing.

Another gritty win, but the defense wasn't as good as it had been in previous games. Part of that was Georgetown's athleticism and part of it was Yurtseven going off.

Just happy they pulled out the win after that awful start.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Was trying to understand how we were in the game after playing so poorly in the first half. Then they showed a stat that we led in offensive rebounds 10-1.

Not insignificant.

[Mak P]

If things not looking good for Hurt in the NBA, come back next year better

[Saratoga2]

It was a good win in which both Stanley and Moore stepped up their game against an athletic, physical and determined opponent in Georgetown, Yurtseven had a very good half and was virtually unstoppable with Delaurier no factor and Carey with foul trouble. We had trouble with the Georgetown press when they applied it but we also applied defensive pressure of our own.

Some questions about where the scoring for Duke will come from are beginning to take shape. Clearly Carey is a key option but also Moore is raw and will turn the ball over but can get to the basket and has the strength to play and score through contact. Stanley is very athletic and get get his going inside and also is capable of hitting from outside enough to keep the defenses honest. Tre didn't have his best offensive game but is so important to making the team run and on defense, he still contributes on his off night offensively. Looking for a shooter still with Baker showing more touch so far than either Alex of Matthew.

Winning the tournament was big for the team and the experience gained in this competition will propel some of our guys to bigger and better results going forward. This is a very likeable team.

The in the cylinder call against Carey left me questioning how that call is made. Carey came up to play Yurtseven closely. Yurtseven leaned into Carey and then rotated his elbows making contact with Careys jaw. I thought the leaninf in to a defender changes the call to a foul on Yurtseven. How did others see that?

[DrChainsaw]

Awesome,old-fashioned ACC vs. Big East game. I love them like that, even though they make the hair I have left turn gray.

And I'll go out on a limb to say I actually enjoy listening to Dakich. Could be a lot worse.

Go I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.!

[kAzE]

Tre was way off his game to say it kindly. They forced us into way too many turnovers.

I'm not going to put this one on Tre, he was being harassed by two or more Hoyas all night long. Georgetown had a good defensive game plan against us. They figured out that we don't really have a reliable second ball handler, and were trapping Tre full court. Moore and Stanley are shaky with the ball and have coughed it up when pressured, so I have a feeling we are going to start seeing more full court press, until we prove we can beat it.

It's like the direct opposite of last year, when every single guy on the floor could grab a rebound and take the ball from coast to coast by himself.

[Music man55]

Good Lord! The most offensive fouls I've seen in one game maybe ever. Wendell Moore is going to be an absolute stud before it's over. White made some great toughness plays and Tre and Vernon played tough, along with Cassius Stanley. G town is going to be a dangerous team come March. I guess coach K decided not to play M. Hurt after first few minutes. A great test for our team so far. Proud of the way they hung in there when they could have let the game slip away. Way to go guys, a great win!

[WVDUKEFAN]

Big Vern had a great game, but I absolutely love Cassius Stanley.

[FerryFor50]

The in the cylinder call against Carey left me questioning how that call is made. Carey came up to play Yurtseven closely. Yurtseven leaned into Carey and then rotated his elbows making contact with Careys jaw. I thought the leaninf in to a defender changes the call to a foul on Yurtseven. How did others see that?

I thought the same. I felt that Carey was in a good position and Yurtseven moved into him. Thought it was close enough where they shouldn't have overturned it.

Also thought Moore got shafted on a blocking call late in the game that had been a charge all night. I guess the refs were sick of calling charges.

[robed deity]

I thought the same. I felt that Carey was in a good position and Yurtseven moved into him. Thought it was close enough where they shouldn't have overturned it.

Also thought Moore got shafted on a blocking call late in the game that had been a charge all night. I guess the refs were sick of calling charges.

That was the charge-iest of all of them.

[ncexnyc]

Those last 4 minutes or so were tough to watch. I kept saying to myself a basket puts this one away, but we just couldn't score and the Hoyas kept chipping away.

Tre was definitely clutch with those free throws.

I think last year's group of freshman spoiled me as they were so ready for prime time action. This year's group definitely has talent, but they're more of a work in progress. It should be fun watching them get better and better as the season goes on.

[SkyBrickey]

When I saw Stanley in shoot around before the Co St game earlier this year, I could tell he had a great stroke. Really showed it off tonight. 3-3 from 3. 6-7 from the line.

Very happy to see Moore playing so well. This is what I expected based on his reputation coming in.

Jack White is a winner.

We can all worry about Hurt now, but I'm sure he'll bounce back better than ever. This was a game where we really needed Jack's physicality for defense and rebounding.

Georgetown impressed me. They were athletic and played hard. That's one of the better defenses we'll play this year. Not UVA good but very good. Great early season win for us.

[rocketeli]

Well, that was fun. Not being sarcastic, just nice to see Duke come out on top in such an intense, gritty contest. I don't think the team was quite ready at the start of the game, but they took the punch and clawed their way back (to write like a sportswriter.) Jones's steal on the in-bounds to start the second half set the tone for the next ten minutes and Georgetown couldn't quite get over it.
Good things: Defense.Rebounding. Carey is good, Moore really showed a lot of improvement and his strength helped, Stanley used his athleticism well and hit some good outside shots, Tre was clutch, and I want to give a shout out to DeLaurier. People are going to look at the stat sheet and think he had a terrible game, but actually he did what he needed to do-wear down the Georgetown bigs and give Carey rest.
Bad: Ball-handling can still be an adventure, especially in traffic.
Okay, we have a team with an inside focus, great rebounders, not much outside shooting, depth and not many top ten freshmen. Am I accidentally watching UNC?

[FerryFor50]

Those last 4 minutes or so were tough to watch. I kept saying to myself a basket puts this one away, but we just couldn't score and the Hoyas kept chipping away.

Tre was definitely clutch with those free throws.

I think last year's group of freshman spoiled me as they were so ready for prime time action. This year's group definitely has talent, but they're more of a work in progress. It should be fun watching them get better and better as the season goes on.

They couldn't score because they took the air out of the ball. Stall ball won the game, but it also killed the offensive flow IMO. They were passing up open shots in some cases to run more time off the clock.

[WiJoe]

Free sporks for anyone who can get me a box score with +/-. Thought it was supposed to be on the official ones but doesn’t look like it. Would love to see what Jack’s was tonight.

http://stats.statbroadcast.com/statmonitr/?id=288219

[WiJoe]

remember the old whine line ... "Duke gets all the calls."

do I need to type it's all b.s.?

[scottdude8]

http://stats.statbroadcast.com/statmonitr/?id=288219

Had to go to desktop mode but found it.

Jack White was PLUS TWENTY despite only scoring five points. That’s pretty darn insane. When he’s on the floor, everyone else can do their jobs better.

[FerryFor50]

Had to go to desktop mode but found it.

Jack White was PLUS TWENTY despite only scoring five points. That’s pretty darn insane. When he’s on the floor, everyone else can do their jobs better.

Delaurier had a +/- of zero, which is the same amount of layups he made.

[scottdude8]

Delaurier had a +/- of zero, which is the same amount of layups he made.

Yeah, if I had to pick my primary disappointment so far this year it’d be him. I was hoping he’d take a big step forward after testing the NBA waters. But so far he seems like the exact same player. Now, that player has value and serves an important role on this team... but right now they role is only to give Carey 10-15 minutes of rest a game.

Javin has stepped up when needed throughout his career and I have no doubt he will at points this year. I was hoping for more consistency as a senior.

[mph]

Delaurier had a +/- of zero, which is the same amount of layups he made.

But 5 less than the fouls he committed.

[jv001]

Had to go to desktop mode but found it.

Jack White was PLUS TWENTY despite only scoring five points. That’s pretty darn insane. When he’s on the floor, everyone else can do their jobs better.

I guess the +/- stat is like the launch angle in baseball. Not to be taken seriously. Stanley -11, Javin 0, O'Connell +3 and Baker +8. No one will ever convince me that Javin was more valuable than Cassius in this game than any of the other 3 players tonight. GoDuke!

[duke4ever19]

Those last 4 minutes or so were tough to watch. I kept saying to myself a basket puts this one away, but we just couldn't score and the Hoyas kept chipping away.

Tre was definitely clutch with those free throws.

I think last year's group of freshman spoiled me as they were so ready for prime time action. This year's group definitely has talent, but they're more of a work in progress. It should be fun watching them get better and better as the season goes on.

I took a look at the game-flow chart and you were right on the money. You can see us flatline at around the 5:00 minute mark.
9974

[Billy Dat]

Great win, a solid accomplishment for this young squad who, despite being ranked #1, still has a lot to earn. This first “title” adds another punch to our card.

Now Wendell joins the list of guys who seem ready to consistently contribute. I was surprised that K started him yesterday but he had an excellent 2 games, especially tonight. It really feels like K realizes that if Tre has to leave a game, Jordan probably isn’t a sustainable answer. We need other ballhandlers and I think he sees Wendell in that role. He played with a confidence he has not yet shown.

Cassius was huge in the second half, and has been consistently good.

So it seems like we leave NY with Tre, Vernon (MVP in NYC), Cassisus, Wendell and Jack as the stalwarts with Javin as the back-up big. Baker gave us some good offensive minutes in the first half but he, Hurt and AOC are still inconsistent and not known quantities.

I am interested in Kedsy’s stats because our defense did not seem nearly as good as it has been.

We are still undefeated, we are still #1, our 3 point shooting is showing signs of life, we have a pair of increasingly studly freshman wings and a beast of a freshman center to go with our star PG and some seniors who know who they are and what they can do. Now we need someone, or two, from the Hurt/AOC/Baker troika to join the party.

[scottdude8]

I guess the +/- stat is like the launch angle in baseball. Not to be taken seriously. Stanley -11, Javin 0, O'Connell +3 and Baker +8. No one will ever convince me that Javin was more valuable than Cassius in this game than any of the other 3 players tonight. GoDuke!

I’m agree that the stat alone can be misleading, but it’s extremely useful in context. For instance, Javin’s is very skewed by his limited minutes. Cassius’ is skewed by him starting, and thus being out there during the slow start.

But I think it does help encapsulate some of the impact a guy like Jack has that don’t show up in the box score otherwise. Jack played 33 minutes and was +20. Think about the inverse... in the seven minutes he was on the bench we were down by 13. That said something about how he impacts the game.

[jimmymax]

Dayum. First "real" game and we have 7 man rotation! I don't understand the +/- fascination, it tends to be way + when a team wins so maybe adjust for that.

I think the Tre=NPOY based on one offensive outburst was a little premature. (As are most predictions this time of year, but talking heads gotta talk.)

Another *slow* start. That's going to be a problem if it continues. It's always good to be able to count on defense but there were some lapses tonight.

Here's hoping the freshmen continue to trend in the right direction. I wish Jack and Javin would lead with more conviction -- I'm not really feeling it.

[UrinalCake]

Breaking the press was a struggle the whole second half, something I’m sure we’ll work on in practice. Several times it felt like we had the press broken by passing ahead, but then instead of continuing towards the basket we would pass the ball backwards the wrong way in order to get it to Tre. The other wings need to have more confidence in their ability to dribble the ball, and the bigs need to make themselves available too.

Hurt and Alex were disappointing, but we’re seeing a lot of development from Moore, Stanley and of course Carey. Plenty of bad calls both ways all game, but nice to see our guys gut it out and get the win. The team looked exhausted by the end, which is understandable given the physicality and playing on a second conductive day.

[Hartford Dukie]

Was at MSG, but what did Dakich say? Maybe I shouldn’t ask.

[oldbailey]

Delaurier had a +/- of zero, which is the same amount of layups he made.

Javin hit .747 from the field last year and is at .292. I’d sure like to see the confidence around the bucket that he had when he was threatening the ACC consecutive field goal record last year.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I was at the game. Not pretty to watch with all the fouls, and lots of angry Georgetown fans (led by their coach). They were unable to adapt to the refs calling the game close.

Wendell was up and down at the start but really stepped up. Carey had a great two days. This was a good win, especially for a young team, fighting through adversity and playing against a quick, physical team on short rest in a big venue. I hope Hurt and O'Connell can bounce back and return to being key contributors. We really need Hurt and his size.

[CDu]

Well, a doozy of a game. Not always pretty, but hopefully this turns out to be a nice resume win by season’s end, as Georgetown looked good. Ewing seems like he might be building something, which would be fun to see.

Interestingly, Coach K scrapped the depth tonight, playing just 7 guys more than 5 minutes and just 5 more than 13 minutes. The approach worked, as the five guys who got major minutes got the job done.

Carey continues to solidify his place in the team hierarchy. It is Jones’ team, but Carey is the fulcrum for the offense. Man has he looked good the past two nights.

Jones made a bunch of big plays. It wasn’t a good shooting night for him, but he still got 13 and 7, with 2 steals. And he was a menace on D as always. It is fun to watch him play. He just has such a great feel for the game.

Moore has really stepped up. He made a bunch of great drives. Yes, he still had 7 turnovers, though some were dicey officiating. But regardless, his play is night and day better now than it was against Kansas. The dude can play. His emergence will be key as we are short on offensive weapons.

Speaking of which, welcome back Cassius Stanley! What a monster second half he had. Finished with 21 and 8(!) rebounds. He and Moore are such a fun duo of wings. Stanley’s shot was falling, too, which would be huge.

White continued to do Jack White things. He can’t shoot or dribble, but he still manages to provide value. Decent chance he starts over Hurt next game.

Speaking of, Hurt has looked rough. Aside from a woefully overmatched UCA, he is averaging 6.6 points and 3.4 rebounds shooting just 13-37 (35%) from the field. He looks overmatched physicality. He can shoot if open, but I wonder how he is going to translate that offensive proficiency against bigger, stronger, and more athletic guys. Of the freshmen, he seems like the one facing the steepest learning/growth curve moving forward.

Baker continued to do his one-trick pony routine. 10 minutes, 5 points, 1 foul, no other stats. The kid can indeed shoot though.

DeLaurier... he gives plenty of effort. But man is he raw on the skills side. Still, it is nice to have a backup C with that experience. He is in there as basically Carey’s sub. And that has value.

Goldwire is a “ditto”, but for Jones.

It was a rough first half, but at least the defense held its own. We held the to 73 points on certain 81 possessions. Basically, both teams slogged through the first half, then we won a shootout in the second.

Huge relief we pulled it out. Hopefully this helps build confidence!

[ShaneRyan]

Positive thoughts:

1. Wendell starting to look like the Wendell we expected is HUGE. Yes, he had seven turnovers and needs to kinda relax in certain situations, but I thought he played terrific defense and delivered some huge buckets, and we needed a guy like him to emerge.

2. Other than the FTs, another superlative performance from Vernon. I think he might be our purest scorer as a true center since...Boozer? I think by the time this year is over that won't even seem like a hot take.

3. Love Joey Baker slowly gaining the trust of Coach K and getting good minutes. Love that he hit the big three tonight, love that he got more than 10 minutes in a close-ish game.

4. Tre may not have had his prettiest performance, but I think the most important bucket of the whole was his steal to start the second half, just a gutting play for Georgetown after surviving the onslaught at the end of the first half to stay tied.

5. Absolutely no panic when going down. Not even a trace of it, and it's awesome to feel that as a fan.

6. Our defense wears teams down and eventually springs our offense. Saw it in both MSG games after slow starts, teams just get worn down from how much sheer effort they have to expend trying to score, and their own D suffers and suddenly we're getting open looks galore, even in the halfcourt set.

7. Cassius is still *chef kissing fingers* As far as I was concerned, his two threes ended the game.

Neutral thoughts:

1. Tonight just emphasized how much Coach K leans toward defense when there's a close call between players. AOC and Hurt were just nowhere to be found, while DeLaurier got his minutes and Jack White barely left the floor despite not having much of a role on offense.

2. This team is only 10 deep when it doesn't matter, surprise surprise. The first time adversity hits, it's essentially a seven-man rotation.

Negative thoughts:

1. I hate seeing what's happening to Hurt, slowly but surely—Coach K losing faith, and despite starting he ended up with five minutes. I think he's a great talent, but I don't think K (or Hurt himself) have solved the riddle of how to make him a productive offensive player when he's not posting up, which he rarely will with Vernon down low. I start to wonder if we're going the way of him eventually becoming a backup center, almost...I'd hate to see him reduced to that, but his D must not be impressive enough to K to warrant PT when the pressure's on.

2. Not shocked but disappointed that I think we're getting the same old AOC, who (sounding like a broken record) just isn't really trusted in big moments.

3. NCAA refereeing is just abysmal. The charge rule needs a total overhaul, because even outside tonight's poor game, there's absolutely no consistency in how it's called, to the point that I wonder if refs are even seeing whether the guy is set or not in most cases and are just judging from the collision onward. I thought the way they lost the game tonight, even outside of the charge calls, really jammed up Duke's momentum and was almost singularly responsible for the ugly end. It's a shame because before the game became overloaded with whistles, it was trending toward beatdown territory.

Overall thought:

1. This was a great defense of the no. 1 ranking. I love this team more and more, and I didn't necessarily expect to this year. Already dreaming of a repeat of the 2009-2010 cycle, where a dominant team who disappoints in the tournament is followed by a team nobody sees coming and who wins the title.

[dukeinla]

If dakich called his partner Boone one more time I was going to turn off the sound. I haven't done that since Dickie V.

[killerleft]

If there are still any of you who doubt how important Wendell Moore will be to this team, just ask Dan Dakich. Or me. He's already the best driver. He's the second best ball-handler. He may turn out to be the best defender.

Give him some time. He'll learn from his mistakes.

I'm patenting a nickname for him now. It is "The Hammerhead Shark". One reason is obvious. The others will become apparent later.

[ShaneRyan]

I revoke every nice thing I said about Dakich after the game last night.

My honest take on Dakich is that even ignoring the inevitable Duke snipes, he just doesn't shut up. I think he actually makes some really good basketball points during the course of a game, but the endless jabber gets so annoying. It felt like in the second half he was swinging on the pendulum of "great refereeing, terrible refereeing!" and it was just nonstop. He needs to be better at giving the game some breathing room, because at a certain point whether he's making sense or not all you can think is, "please stop talking."

[Duke76]

love the confidence these young guys are getting, stanley moore and carey all have great strokes....to me really active feet and nice repeatable strokes on shots...even Hurt's shot has good form although he appears maybe one dimensional.....stanley, moore and carey all have different moves to the basket that seem dynamic to me .....love Coach K's plays out of time outs tonight and plays in general he called tonight....like last year we seem to play a lot better with purposeful sets and not just individual plays where you try to take your man on the dribble...I think with young guys the percentages are with you on set plays vs individual matchups...unless your name is Zion or Kyrie

[COYS]

For anyone who is interested, you can see Bart Torvik’s adjusted efficiency stats for free. Click on the score of any game Duke has played and you can see the GBPM (game box plus minus) which is adjusted to better reflect actual impact on the court and not just the raw score. Anyone who follows the same stat in the NBA will recognize it immediately.

By GBPM, Cassius Stanley fares MUCH better than his raw plus minus numbers would suggest. In fact, Cassius led the team in GBPM. Javin was our best defensive player per DGBPM . . . And our worst offensive player. He almost perfectly canceled out his defense with his offense. Also, Joey’s 9 minutes were huge for the team. We really needed Cassius and Joey’s accuracy from three, tonight.

http://barttorvik.com/box.php?muid=GeorgetownDuke11-22&year=2020

[ShaneRyan]

For anyone who is interested, you can see Bart Torvik’s adjusted efficiency stats for free. Click on the score of any game Duke has played and you can see the GBPM (game box plus minus) which is adjusted to better reflect actual impact on the court and not just the raw score. Anyone who follows the same stat in the NBA will recognize it immediately.

By GBPM, Cassius Stanley fares MUCH better than his raw plus minus numbers would suggest. In fact, Cassius led the team in GBPM. Javin was our best defensive player per DGBPM . . . And our worst offensive player. He almost perfectly canceled out his defense with his offense. Also, Joey’s 9 minutes were huge for the team. We really needed Cassius and Joey’s accuracy from three, tonight.

http://barttorvik.com/box.php?muid=GeorgetownDuke11-22&year=2020

Is there an explanation for how GBPM is calculated? Is it meant to be a comprehensive metric of the impact someone had on the game, a sort of "player value" stat? I know pure +/- can be misleading and not a great way to judge someone's performance by itself.

[Kedsy]

A win is a win is a win.

OFFENSE

Possessions: 80.7 (fastest game we've played this season)
oRtg: 1.00 (meh)
eFG%: 46.2% (not good)
3pt%: 46.2% (super good, for this Duke team)
2pt%: 40.4% (4th game out of six we've been under 45% from two; that's a bit concerning)
%threes: 20.0% (very low, but I guess we only took the wide open ones and hit them, so...)
FT rate: 44.6% (third straight strong performance getting to the line)
OR%: 46.3% (three straight extremely strong OR performances)
TO%: 26.0% (really bad, worst TO performance of the season; third 20+ TO% of the season)
a/to: 0.71:1 (not good)
%assisted: 55.6% (fine)
fast break pts: 15 (18.5% of points; good not great)

DEFENSE

dRtg: 0.91 (worst ppp of the season, but if this is your worst, you're pretty good)
eFG%: 56.4% (yuck)
3pt%: 37.5% (not great)
2pt%: 56.4% (poor; by far our worst opposing 2% of the season)
%threes: 29.0% (five out of six our opponents have taken fewer than 30% of their shots from three; it's beginning to look like a feature)
FT rate: 32.7% (not bad, considering coming into this game Georgetown's season free throw rate was 47%)
DR%: 77.4% (extraordinary; five out of six games we've gathered 77% or more of available defensive rebounds)
TO%: 29.8% (our 2nd best TO performance of the season; basically this was the reason we won the game)
a/to: 0.67:1 (our opponents have been under 0.72:1 in all six games this season)
%assisted: 57.0% (eh)
stl%: 9.9% (third straight so-so steals performance)
blk%: 7.3% (10.3% of 2pt shots) (okay)
fast break pts: 14 (19.2% of points; meh)


Kind of like the Kansas game, except we rebounded a lot better in this one. On offense, way too many turnovers. Also, our two-point shooting has been surprisingly, consistently not very good. On the flip side, if our defensive rebounding keeps up, this will be by far and away the best Duke defensive rebounding team ever (or at least since they started keeping the stat). Finally, it's interesting to me how well we've run our opponents off the three-point line so far this season. Hopefully, that continues.

[heyman25]

Great win, a solid accomplishment for this young squad who, despite being ranked #1, still has a lot to earn. This first “title” adds another punch to our card.

Now Wendell joins the list of guys who seem ready to consistently contribute. I was surprised that K started him yesterday but he had an excellent 2 games, especially tonight. It really feels like K realizes that if Tre has to leave a game, Jordan probably isn’t a sustainable answer. We need other ballhandlers and I think he sees Wendell in that role. He played with a confidence he has not yet shown.

Cassius was huge in the second half, and has been consistently good.

So it seems like we leave NY with Tre, Vernon (MVP in NYC), Cassisus, Wendell and Jack as the stalwarts with Javin as the back-up big. Baker gave us some good offensive minutes in the first half but he, Hurt and AOC are still inconsistent and not known quantities.

I am interested in Kedsy’s stats because our defense did not seem nearly as good as it has been.

We are still undefeated, we are still #1, our 3 point shooting is showing signs of life, we have a pair of increasingly studly freshman wings and a beast of a freshman center to go with our star PG and some seniors who know who they are and what they can do. Now we need someone, or two, from the Hurt/AOC/Baker troika to join the party.
Well said Billy. Hurt and O'Connell need to start making shots. White would rather pass than shoot.
Cassius Stanley had an excellent second half and Wendell Moore had his best game.
DeLaurier still fouls too much,but glad he stayed for Carey relief.
Will Avery was at both games behind the bench. Is he interning or doing something with Duke basketball?

[Edouble]

2. Other than the FTs, another superlative performance from Vernon. I think he might be our purest scorer as a true center since...Boozer? I think by the time this year is over that won't even seem like a hot take.



Um, ACC POY, 1st Team All American, National Champion, classic post-up, back-to-the-basket "true center" Jahlil Okafor ring any bells?

[ShaneRyan]

Um, ACC POY, 1st Team All American, National Champion, classic post-up, back-to-the-basket "true center" Jahlil Okafor ring any bells?

Oh, he rings a bell. The point I'm making is I think by the end of the year we'll mostly agree that Vern is a better scorer. And will have a much better NBA career too. Long way to go, but I think he's going to be one of our greatest centers ever. Not my original argument, but he's already a way better defender than Jah.

[Edouble]

Oh, he rings a bell. The point I'm making is I think by the end of the year we'll mostly agree that Vern is a better scorer. And will have a much better NBA career too. Long way to go, but I think he's going to be one of our greatest centers ever. Not my original argument, but he's already a way better defender than Jah.

But we are not comparing Vernon to Jahlil.

We are comparing Boozer to Jahlil.

You said Vernon was our purest scorer as a true center since Boozer and I am saying there is a "more" pure scorer as a true center since Boozer... Jahlil Okafor. That guy had every post move in the book. Much more of a pure scorer than Carlos, with the hardware to prove it.

[mr. synellinden]

Oh, he rings a bell. The point I'm making is I think by the end of the year we'll mostly agree that Vern is a better scorer. And will have a much better NBA career too. Long way to go, but I think he's going to be one of our greatest centers ever. Not my original argument, but he's already a way better defender than Jah.

Let’s not lose sight of the fact that after 6 games Big Vern is threatening to tie Plumlee III for the all-time Duke record for three point shooting percentage.

[ShaneRyan]

But we are not comparing Vernon to Jahlil.

We are comparing Boozer to Jahlil.

You said Vernon was our purest scorer as a true center since Boozer and I am saying there is a "more" pure scorer as a true center since Boozer... Jahlil Okafor. That guy had every post move in the book. Much more of a pure scorer than Carlos, with the hardware to prove it.

Got it. I think looking at per 40 stats, Boozer's final season was better than Okafor's only season, but it's very close (efg, for instance, .665 to .664 for Boozer, total scoring .690 to .641 for Boozer, and Boozer has him on points despite fewer FG attempts partly because of superior FT shooting) and I still take your point. But if we're going for single best year, I put Boozer as no. 1 at least since 2000.

[Saratoga2]

Cassius is improving by leaps and bounds.
Wendell is strong to the basket.
Vernon is already there and who can argue with that?
We just want Jack to be nimble
Tre is the orchestra leader.

Now Joey, Matthew and/or Alex have to pick up the beat.

[arnie]

Breaking the press was a struggle the whole second half, something I’m sure we’ll work on in practice. Several times it felt like we had the press broken by passing ahead, but then instead of continuing towards the basket we would pass the ball backwards the wrong way in order to get it to Tre. The other wings need to have more confidence in their ability to dribble the ball, and the bigs need to make themselves available too.

Hurt and Alex were disappointing, but we’re seeing a lot of development from Moore, Stanley and of course Carey. Plenty of bad calls both ways all game, but nice to see our guys gut it out and get the win. The team looked exhausted by the end, which is understandable given the physicality and playing on a second conductive day.

Think your 1st paragraph is key. When teams press us like that, we have to make them pay and with Moore/Stanley/Carey as finishers that should work. One of the problems, Jack isn’t a particularly good ball handler and certainly Javin is definitely a liability, so when they’re in the game others can be doubled. I’m sure K will tinker with this, but not sure we have that 2nd or 3rd handler that can force the flow. Maybe if Hurt plays that improves?

[dukelifer]

Cassius is improving by leaps and bounds.
Wendell is strong to the basket.
Vernon is already there and who can argue with that?
We just want Jack to be nimble
Tre is the orchestra leader.

Now Joey, Matthew and/or Alex have to pick up the beat.

I think Joey made some big steps toward getting more PT. The kid can be a sniper for 10 minutes.

[dukelifer]

If there are still any of you who doubt how important Wendell Moore will be to this team, just ask Dan Dakich. Or me. He's already the best driver. He's the second best ball-handler. He may turn out to be the best defender.

Give him some time. He'll learn from his mistakes.

I'm patenting a nickname for him now. It is "The Hammerhead Shark". One reason is obvious. The others will become apparent later.

I am feeling better about Moore of late. He is using his strengths more and not looking to shoot from deep. He knows he needs that shot to make the NBA but it is not reliable. Stanley is a better shooter at this stage. Moore also is being a tad more careful with the ball but has some issues there as do others. This is a balanced team and in some games Hurt will be very valuable. If Javin can finish better and Jack can shoot better- this group could be mighty formidable for 40 min.

[Troublemaker]

Some analysis later.

For now, I just wanted to say that my blood still rushes and my gooses still bump when our boys slap the floor! Awesome "comeback" win -- is that an appropriate label?

Starting to get giddy about this team.

[slower]

If there are still any of you who doubt how important Wendell Moore will be to this team, just ask Dan Dakich. Or me. He's already the best driver. He's the second best ball-handler. He may turn out to be the best defender.

Give him some time. He'll learn from his mistakes.

I'm patenting a nickname for him now. It is "The Hammerhead Shark". One reason is obvious. The others will become apparent later.

I've been harder on Moore than just about anybody, because of his (at times) shaky handle, poor decision-making (at times) on passes, and the almost 100% inevitability of him putting his head down and going to the rim when he gets the ball (which always gives me PTSD flashbacks to DeMarcus Nelson's infuriating drives into traffic).

After Dakich tagged him MOTM last night, he made 4 turnovers/ bad plays to end the game. He may have scored in there (I forget), but it was not a great end to the game for him. Also, can somebody arrange to introduce him to Joey Baker (who was WIDE open several times when Moore decided to storm the lane)?

Now, of course, he's a net positive, and OF COURSE he will learn from his mistakes. And he appears to be fearless, which will hopefully be a net positive. So, on the one hand, it's good that he has the same mentality as Nelson/Rivers/Allen/Tatum/Barrett, and is convinced that he can get buckets around the rim. And I'm warming to the idea that he WILL get those buckets a majority of the time. But there will also be lots of swatted/rejected shots and facepalms in the DBR community.

But I'm coming around. ;)

[Bob Green]

Jones's steal on the in-bounds to start the second half set the tone for the next ten minutes and Georgetown couldn't quite get over it.

Absolutely perfect timing by Jones on the steal. He breaks a split second sooner and the in bounds passer sees him and holds the ball, a split second later and the ball is by him.

Impressive!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Any thoughts about Tre's end of first half collision at half court with the Hoya kid? In real time I thought it was a good call. On replay, it looked much more iffy. Maybe I watched too much football, but it looked like the ball carrier (Jones, sort of) initiated contact leading with the shoulder. But possession of the ball by anyone was questionable at best.

Regardless, the call went our way and was one of several plays at the end of the half that really helped us climb back into the game.

At halftime I was completely befuddled by how we were able to stay close despite shooting so poorly at the outset. Then, early in the second half, I saw a stat that we were leading Georgetown in offensive rebounds 10-1. That certainly makes a difference when you are struggling to put the ball in the cylinder.

Great gutty win. Glad to see the fellas rise instead of wilt.

[Bob Green]

Any thoughts about Tre's end of first half collision at half court with the Hoya kid? In real time I thought it was a good call. On replay, it looked much more iffy. Maybe I watched too much football, but it looked like the ball carrier (Jones, sort of) initiated contact leading with the shoulder. But possession of the ball by anyone was questionable at best.

I agree with Dakich, it should have been a no call. Jones possession of the ball is iffy but I am sure that is the factor which influenced the refs’ decision.

[Furniture]

I really didn’t think Vernon would be this good. He is the real deal.
Re Moore. Since K had been starting and playing him a lot I had been thinking that he must be playing well in practice. Last night he showed his potential. He reminds me so much on Winslow. With the Georgetown press he was Tre’s go to player to get out of it and he did great! I think Hurt will get better. K wanted to win it last night and he saw Georgetown we’re playing tough so he needed some Jack W. Hurt is starting so he also must be playing well in practice.
Before the beginning of the the season I didn’t think these kids would be this good and I had been thinking where on earth is K going to put all of these guys with all of the great recruits that will come in next year. Now it’s easy to see that Cassius, Moore and Vernon will definitely be gone. I am sure Hurt will show it soon too.

[plimnko]

Any thoughts about Tre's end of first half collision at half court with the Hoya kid? In real time I thought it was a good call. On replay, it looked much more iffy. Maybe I watched too much football, but it looked like the ball carrier (Jones, sort of) initiated contact leading with the shoulder. But possession of the ball by anyone was questionable at best.

Regardless, the call went our way and was one of several plays at the end of the half that really helped us climb back into the game.

At halftime I was completely befuddled by how we were able to stay close despite shooting so poorly at the outset. Then, early in the second half, I saw a stat that we were leading Georgetown in offensive rebounds 10-1. That certainly makes a difference when you are struggling to put the ball in the cylinder.

Great gutty win. Glad to see the fellas rise instead of wilt.



I agree...the call looked iffy. There were several iffy calls both ways, in my opinion. I'm sure it all balanced out. It was a good win. I thought Wendell Moore played his best game. Seems this team is getting better every game.

[MChambers]

I agree...the call looked iffy. There were several iffy calls both ways, in my opinion. I'm sure it all balanced out. It was a good win. I thought Wendell Moore played his best game. Seems this team is getting better every game.

Both my son and I thought it was a good call. Tre had his hands on the ball and McClung crashed into him. McClung was out of control and didn't seem to make a play on the ball.

[Devilwin]

It was a good win in which both Stanley and Moore stepped up their game against an athletic, physical and determined opponent in Georgetown, Yurtseven had a very good half and was virtually unstoppable with Delaurier no factor and Carey with foul trouble. We had trouble with the Georgetown press when they applied it but we also applied defensive pressure of our own.

Some questions about where the scoring for Duke will come from are beginning to take shape. Clearly Carey is a key option but also Moore is raw and will turn the ball over but can get to the basket and has the strength to play and score through contact. Stanley is very athletic and get get his going inside and also is capable of hitting from outside enough to keep the defenses honest. Tre didn't have his best offensive game but is so important to making the team run and on defense, he still contributes on his off night offensively. Looking for a shooter still with Baker showing more touch so far than either Alex of Matthew.

Winning the tournament was big for the team and the experience gained in this competition will propel some of our guys to bigger and better results going forward. This is a very likeable team.

The in the cylinder call against Carey left me questioning how that call is made. Carey came up to play Yurtseven closely. Yurtseven leaned into Carey and then rotated his elbows making contact with Careys jaw. I thought the leaninf in to a defender changes the call to a foul on Yurtseven. How did others see that?
He leaned into Carey.. Bad call. One of many.

[COYS]

Is there an explanation for how GBPM is calculated? Is it meant to be a comprehensive metric of the impact someone had on the game, a sort of "player value" stat? I know pure +/- can be misleading and not a great way to judge someone's performance by itself.

I couldn’t find an explainer on how (or if) Torvik’s GBPM is any different than BPM, but here’s Basketball Reference’s explainer: https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html

In short, it uses box score stats then rates them per 100 minutes. It’s not a perfect stat, but it’s much better than raw +/-.

It is going to prefer players who rack up defensive stats (which is why it LOVED Zion last year) and undervalue the defense of anyone who is playing well positionally but isn’t accumulating steals.

On the other hand, it is (accurately, in my opinion) unkind to high turnover totals on offense. So Wendell’s overall performance is tempered by those seven TOs.

[Furniture]

He leaned into Carey.. Bad call. One of many.

I thought this was a make up call for a 50/50 call that went Dukes way a few mins earlier when their coach lost it. It was a Duke doesn’t get all the calls move by the refs....

[tbyers11]

Both my son and I thought it was a good call. Tre had his hands on the ball and McClung crashed into him. McClung was out of control and didn't seem to make a play on the ball.

I agree that it was good call on McClung. Tre had the ball in hands and McClung did not. I have never seen a call with that much contact go as a no call in basketball.

My biggest announcer idiocy was the Ajinko inbound foul call on Stanley that got Ewing T’d up. In real time I thought it was fairly obvious that Ajinko grabbed Stanley which impeded his jump and ability to grab the ball. Now the first couple of replay angles did not capture this well. Dakich and friend began their awful call tirade. Then the third angle showed clearly that Ajinko grabbed Stanley’s wrist. The announcers paused and I thought they were about to say “well that angle shows it was a good call” instead they said well maybe there was a little grab but it was still an awful call. It was like my 7 year old insisting he is correct in the face of definitive evidence that he is not. I wish they would pay my son to announce. He definitely less of a blowhard than Dakich.

[robed deity]

I agree that it was good call on McClung. Tre had the ball in hands and McClung did not. I have never seen a call with that much contact go as a no call in basketball.

My biggest announcer idiocy was the Ajinko inbound foul call on Stanley that got Ewing T’d up. In real time I thought it was fairly obvious that Ajinko grabbed Stanley which impeded his jump and ability to grab the ball. Now the first couple of replay angles did not capture this well. Dakich and friend began their awful call tirade. Then the third angle showed clearly that Ajinko grabbed Stanley’s wrist. The announcers paused and I thought they were about to say “well that angle shows it was a good call” instead they said well maybe there was a little grab but it was still an awful call. It was like my 7 year old insisting he is correct in the face of definitive evidence that he is not. I wish they would pay my son to announce. He definitely less of a blowhard than Dakich.

I also learned that Jon Sciambi's nickname is "Boog." And boy did I ever learn it.

[sagegrouse]

Think your 1st paragraph is key. When teams press us like that, we have to make them pay and with Moore/Stanley/Carey as finishers that should work. One of the problems, Jack isn’t a particularly good ball handler and certainly Javin is definitely a liability, so when they’re in the game others can be doubled. I’m sure K will tinker with this, but not sure we have that 2nd or 3rd handler that can force the flow. Maybe if Hurt plays that improves?

I thought our better offense against Georgetown's press have included Goldwire and maybe O'Connell. I wondered if K was letting Moore and Stanley get some experience on the big stage in a game in which we had a ten-point lead.

[AtlDuke72]

My honest take on Dakich is that even ignoring the inevitable Duke snipes, he just doesn't shut up. I think he actually makes some really good basketball points during the course of a game, but the endless jabber gets so annoying. It felt like in the second half he was swinging on the pendulum of "great refereeing, terrible refereeing!" and it was just nonstop. He needs to be better at giving the game some breathing room, because at a certain point whether he's making sense or not all you can think is, "please stop talking."

Only Corey Alexander talks more. Both are insufferable.

I saw Carey play in a televised game last year. Mostly he drifted around the perimeter and did not seem to play hard. Wow - was i wrong ! Now he looks totally engaged and is a beast inside.

[SavDukeGrad]

Only Corey Alexander talks more. Both are insufferable.

I saw Carey play in a televised game last year. Mostly he drifted around the perimeter and did not seem to play hard. Wow - was i wrong ! Now he looks totally engaged and is a beast inside.

Well Coach K said after his performance at CTC, Vernon had never played inside before. So he was just learning how to do it. I would say he has learned a lot thus far! And the staff has done a great job developing his inside game.

Iirc, one of the knocks on him during recruiting was also his motor. Looks like good coaching has solved that issue too. Well that and getting in better shape.

[SkyBrickey]

Javin hit .747 from the field last year and is at .292. I’d sure like to see the confidence around the bucket that he had when he was threatening the ACC consecutive field goal record last year.

I was about to make this same point. We need that Javin back!

I think the big 3 last year were drawing so much extra attention that it led to a lot of easy ones by Javin. But I also think he will probably shoot much better moving forward, at least 0.500 from the field.

[ShaneRyan]

Let’s not lose sight of the fact that after 6 games Big Vern is threatening to tie Plumlee III for the all-time Duke record for three point shooting percentage.

I don't know why I thought this, but I thought for sure Vern took and missed a three-pointer last night, and it broke my heart that he lost the 100% rate. Now I see from the box score that it didn't happen...was it a long two or was I looking at the completely wrong guy? Either way, the perfect season is ON! But he's going to have to slow his rate immediately. I want a sneaky 7-for-7 season with the last coming as the game winner in the title game.

[Billy Dat]

I also learned that Jon Sciambi's nickname is "Boog." And boy did I ever learn it.

I kept hearing it as "Boo", the slang term for "significant other" which was making me crack up.

[Saratoga2]

I think Joey made some big steps toward getting more PT. The kid can be a sniper for 10 minutes.

I think Tre has to trust him as he was open but Tre went another and more difficult way. Maybe trust wll be earned in follow on games.

I sorry that Alex with his athleticism and experience seems stuck in a rut.

[SkyBrickey]

I disagree with the idea that Stanley and Moore are definitely gone. They may be but perhaps Moore returns to start at PG for us next year.

Hurt was a total non factor last night but I don’t think this is the new normal. He did start after all. He’s a very skilled scorer and I expect he will play big minutes and put up some big numbers in certain games. We went to the Tre Vernon pick and roll over and over again last night. I expect the Hurt Vernon high low game to improve a lot as the season goes on.

[roywhite]

Well Coach K said after his performance at CTC, Vernon had never played inside before. So he was just learning how to do it. I would say he has learned a lot thus far! And the staff has done a great job developing his inside game.

Iirc, one of the knocks on him during recruiting was also his motor. Looks like good coaching has solved that issue too. Well that and getting in better shape.

Yeah, note Coach K's postgame comments about Carey and the team in general:

"We felt starting practice that we could be good defensively with Tre (Jones) there and depth. We've really devoted
most of our practice time to defense. As a result, I think we've gotten tougher. We've also spent a lot of time in
rebounding. The differential in rebounding tonight was significant to the win. We're finding ourselves offensively. I'm
still learning about Vernon (Carey Jr.). I knew he'd be good, but he's really good. And so, our perimeter has not scored.
Tonight, Wendell (Moore Jr.) and Cassius (Stanley) had 38 points. So here, concentrating on defense and giving Wendell
and Cassius a little more confidence, that leads to better offense. We're going to continue to try to find out about
ourselves, and you find out when you play games like this."


https://goduke.com/documents/2019/11/22//Duke_Georgetown_Coach_K_Quotes.pdf

[Hartford Dukie]

Good read on game

https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2019/11/22/cassius-stanley-wendell-moore-spark-come-from-behind-win-for-no-1-duke-over-georgetown/

Nate getting plaudits for his work with Carey. Seen that elsewhere as well.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I disagree with the idea that Stanley and Moore are definitely gone. They may be but perhaps Moore returns to start at PG for us next year.


Are we really discussing this six games in? This leaves precious little (as in, none) time to enjoy them.

[roywhite]

I think it's been mentioned before, but Wendell Moore seems similar to Justise Winslow, really strong, versatile mid-size player. Gets tough rebounds, defends well, transitions well from defense to offense, and has some offense of his own. Just the kind of chess piece that Coach K loves.

[bluedev_92]

I kept hearing it as "Boo", the slang term for "significant other" which was making me crack up.

I heard it as “Boo” as well. Also used in Cajun country in Louisiana as a term of affection for a child... Every time he said it (a lot) I would listen intently for the next one to see if I was hearing it correctly!

[robed deity]

I kept hearing it as "Boo", the slang term for "significant other" which was making me crack up.

Same! It took a trip to Wikipedia to confirm "Boog" because of his resemblance to Boog Powell.

[devilsadvocate85]

I heard it as “Boo” as well. Also used in Cajun country in Louisiana as a term of affection for a child... Every time he said it (a lot) I would listen intently for the next one to see if I was hearing it correctly!

John Sciambi’s nickname is “Boog” in reference to Boog Powell for obvious reasons

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Sciambi

I can’t get the hyperlink to work from my phone.

[dukejim1]

I think it's been mentioned before, but Wendell Moore seems similar to Justise Winslow, really strong, versatile mid-size player. Gets tough rebounds, defends well, transitions well from defense to offense, and has some offense of his own. Just the kind of chess piece that Coach K loves.

I like the Dakich’ Carrawell comparison. The upperclassmen Carrawell was as complete a player as you need in a strong lineup. We just need to see if Moore can guard Tim Duncan.

[dm9e24]

Are we really discussing this six games in? This leaves precious little (as in, none) time to enjoy them.

Agree. Let's not push these kids out the door to make room for the next "great" class of freshmen. I'd rather have the mindset of how great a team we could have if Moore and Hurt were sophomores and defending national champs.

[killerleft]

I've been harder on Moore than just about anybody, because of his (at times) shaky handle, poor decision-making (at times) on passes, and the almost 100% inevitability of him putting his head down and going to the rim when he gets the ball (which always gives me PTSD flashbacks to DeMarcus Nelson's infuriating drives into traffic).

After Dakich tagged him MOTM last night, he made 4 turnovers/ bad plays to end the game. He may have scored in there (I forget), but it was not a great end to the game for him. Also, can somebody arrange to introduce him to Joey Baker (who was WIDE open several times when Moore decided to storm the lane)?

Now, of course, he's a net positive, and OF COURSE he will learn from his mistakes. And he appears to be fearless, which will hopefully be a net positive. So, on the one hand, it's good that he has the same mentality as Nelson/Rivers/Allen/Tatum/Barrett, and is convinced that he can get buckets around the rim. And I'm warming to the idea that he WILL get those buckets a majority of the time. But there will also be lots of swatted/rejected shots and facepalms in the DBR community.

But I'm coming around. ;)

It's a shame, but we seldom have the luxury of watching talented youngsters mature during multi-year college careers. Were I forced to bet today, I'd have to put my money on three and perhaps four Blue Devils going pro after this season. That magic word "potential" certainly covers Carey, Stanley, and Moore.

Maybe I'm high on him because we NEED for him to do certain things to alleviate our lack of shooting prowess. Moore and Stanley on the drive can really wreak some havoc on opposing defenses.

What an inriguing year for Duke Basketball. In some previous years, I've been more afraid of what we might NOT do. This year, I'm looking forward to what we MIGHT do!

[unclsam1]

The real key to the victory was Duke ditching the grey unis and allowing a team that should be wearing those colors to wear them.

[Indoor66]

Are we really discussing this six games in? This leaves precious little (as in, none) time to enjoy them.

This is DBR. It is almost time for a '20-'21 minutes thread

[Kfanarmy]

If things not looking good for Hurt in the NBA, come back next year better

Maybe we should try to enjoy what we have really early into this season. Save worrying about next season until, say at least January?

[Dukehky]

It's a shame, but we seldom have the luxury of watching talented youngsters mature during multi-year college careers. Were I forced to bet today, I'd have to put my money on three and perhaps four Blue Devils going pro after this season. That magic word "potential" certainly covers Carey, Stanley, and Moore.

Maybe I'm high on him because we NEED for him to do certain things to alleviate our lack of shooting prowess. Moore and Stanley on the drive can really wreak some havoc on opposing defenses.

What an inriguing year for Duke Basketball. In some previous years, I've been more afraid of what we might NOT do. This year, I'm looking forward to what we MIGHT do!

The expectation is for all of them to go. Hopefully a couple stay.


Also, did you guys know that Duke gets all the calls?

As bad as Dakich is, I hate Dana O'Neil far more.

[Steven43]

I think it's been mentioned before, but Wendell Moore seems similar to Justise Winslow, really strong, versatile mid-size player. Gets tough rebounds, defends well, transitions well from defense to offense, and has some offense of his own. Just the kind of chess piece that Coach K loves.

And just like Justise, I think Moore could end up playing PG in the NBA.

[ndkjr70]

One thing to watch out for — Joey Baker is going to get T’d up and/or thrown out of a game some time this season if he doesn’t chill the hell out. Every call against him he’s openly defiant / mocking towards the ref. When he’s on the bench he throws his hands out and swears at the refs after any perceived call or missed call. My friend was at the game and said the referees had to talk to Baker three or four times during the game.

[Kedsy]

Let’s not lose sight of the fact that after 6 games Big Vern is threatening to tie Plumlee III for the all-time Duke record for three point shooting percentage.

It must be pointed out that Marshall Plumlee only tied the career 3pt% record, originally held by his brother Miles (who also shot 100% for his career from the three-o-sphere).


Moore also is being a tad more careful with the ball but has some issues there as do others.

More careful than whom? Wendell Moore currently has the worst turnover% and highest TO per 40 on the team (not counting Mike Buckmire). By a lot.

[Steven43]

One thing to watch out for — Joey Baker is going to get T’d up and/or thrown out of a game some time this season if he doesn’t chill the hell out. Every call against him he’s openly defiant / mocking towards the ref. When he’s on the bench he throws his hands out and swears at the refs after any perceived call or missed call. My friend was at the game and said the referees had to talk to Baker three or four times during the game.

Are you serious? I hadn’t noticed this. One of the things I’m so very proud of about Duke Basketball is how our players almost always conduct themselves with class, dignity, respect, and good sportsmanship. I really hope this stuff about Baker is an exaggeration.

[BandAlum83]

I agree that it was good call on McClung. Tre had the ball in hands and McClung did not. I have never seen a call with that much contact go as a no call in basketball.

My biggest announcer idiocy was the Ajinko inbound foul call on Stanley that got Ewing T’d up. In real time I thought it was fairly obvious that Ajinko grabbed Stanley which impeded his jump and ability to grab the ball. Now the first couple of replay angles did not capture this well. Dakich and friend began their awful call tirade. Then the third angle showed clearly that Ajinko grabbed Stanley’s wrist. The announcers paused and I thought they were about to say “well that angle shows it was a good call” instead they said well maybe there was a little grab but it was still an awful call. It was like my 7 year old insisting he is correct in the face of definitive evidence that he is not. I wish they would pay my son to announce. He definitely less of a blowhard than Dakich.

I thought one angle clearly showed that in addition, the Georgetown player also made a move with leg and hip to undercut Stanley once he went in the air.

[BandAlum83]

I don't know why I thought this, but I thought for sure Vern took and missed a three-pointer last night, and it broke my heart that he lost the 100% rate. Now I see from the box score that it didn't happen...was it a long two or was I looking at the completely wrong guy? Either way, the perfect season is ON! But he's going to have to slow his rate immediately. I want a sneaky 7-for-7 season with the last coming as the game winner in the title game.

God no! I want a blowout in the title game. I don’t think I could take it if we need a step out three from our dominating center to win. My head hurts and my heart races thinking of it.

[BandAlum83]

I disagree with the idea that Stanley and Moore are definitely gone. They may be but perhaps Moore returns to start at PG for us next year.

Hurt was a total non factor last night but I don’t think this is the new normal. He did start after all. He’s a very skilled scorer and I expect he will play big minutes and put up some big numbers in certain games. We went to the Tre Vernon pick and roll over and over again last night. I expect the Hurt Vernon high low game to improve a lot as the season goes on.

I’m delusionally thinking Tre is a 4 year, 3-peat, number in the rafters, Duke legend kind of guy.

[Dukehky]

Are you serious? I hadn’t noticed this. One of the things I’m so very proud of about Duke Basketball is how our players almost always conduct themselves with class, dignity, respect, and good sportsmanship. I really hope this stuff about Baker is an exaggeration.

So you don't like it when K swears at refs either?

[Steven43]

So you don't like it when K swears at refs either?
Did I say that?

[Green Wave Dukie]

So you don't like it when K swears at refs either?

Not that you were asking me, Dukehky, but 'No', I don't like it at all. But everyone's mileage may vary on this one, I get it.

[SkyBrickey]

K doesn’t swear. Marty doesn’t foul.

[golfinesquire]

Are you serious? I hadn’t noticed this. One of the things I’m so very proud of about Duke Basketball is how our players almost always conduct themselves with class, dignity, respect, and good sportsmanship. I really hope this stuff about Baker is an exaggeration.

I agree with Steven43. I was at the game too and I did not see any of the things you are describing. I did see Wendell doing a little bit of trash talking but nothing concerning. Baker is high energy for sure, but his energy is directed towards his teammates, who feed off it.

[OldPhiKap]

John Sciambi’s nickname is “Boog” in reference to Boog Powell for obvious reasons


It’s clear once you see it:


https://youtu.be/Z8c6Ir2okLY

[dukelifer]

It must be pointed out that Marshall Plumlee only tied the career 3pt% record, originally held by his brother Miles (who also shot 100% for his career from the three-o-sphere).



More careful than whom? Wendell Moore currently has the worst turnover% and highest TO per 40 on the team (not counting Mike Buckmire). By a lot.

Yes - he seemed to be a tad ( a little, a wee bit) more careful of late than Moore is typically. He has issues there for sure.

[ndkjr70]

Are you serious? I hadn’t noticed this. One of the things I’m so very proud of about Duke Basketball is how our players almost always conduct themselves with class, dignity, respect, and good sportsmanship. I really hope this stuff about Baker is an exaggeration.

It’s just my observation corroborated by a friends’, but I just finished rewatching the Georgetown game and I came away feeling more confident in that opinion.

[Jeffrey]

White continued to do Jack White things. He can’t shoot or dribble, but he still manages to provide value. Decent chance he starts over Hurt next game.

Speaking of, Hurt has looked rough. Aside from a woefully overmatched UCA, he is averaging 6.6 points and 3.4 rebounds shooting just 13-37 (35%) from the field. He looks overmatched physicality. He can shoot if open, but I wonder how he is going to translate that offensive proficiency against bigger, stronger, and more athletic guys. Of the freshmen, he seems like the one facing the steepest learning/growth curve moving forward.


I think Hurt has much more potential, than White, to be very good come March. Hurt has strong offensive skills (shooting and rebounding) and I really hope K gives Hurt more PT, than White, between now and March. Unfortunately, it will be comfortable for K to depend on a known commodity (White) before March.

[MChambers]

I think Hurt has much more potential, than White, to be very good come March. Hurt has strong offensive skills (shooting and rebounding) and I really hope K gives Hurt more PT, than White, between now and March. Unfortunately, it will be comfortable for K to depend on a known commodity (White) before March.

Oh, I have this suspicion that Coach K knows exactly how good Hurt can be and will do everything he can do let Hurt show his talent.

Just a feeling.

[CDu]

More careful than whom? Wendell Moore currently has the worst turnover% and highest TO per 40 on the team (not counting Mike Buckmire). By a lot.

I read that as Moore is being a tad more careful than he himself was earlier in the season.

[Jeffrey]

Oh, I have this suspicion that Coach K knows exactly how good Hurt can be and will do everything he can do let Hurt show his talent.

Just a feeling.

I think K will do everything possible to win every game and, currently, ending games with White is probably our best option. I’d rather increase the probability of early losses and end games with Hurt for his March development. There will be a March game when we will need another scorer at the end of a game. This team can play great D, even with Hurt, if Carey stays out of foul trouble.

[Neals384]

Was at MSG, but what did Dakich say? Maybe I shouldn’t ask.

Did what ignorant fans do: spent so much energy second-guessing the refs that he missed much of the game. See comment from tbyers below.


If dakich called his partner Boone one more time I was going to turn off the sound. I haven't done that since Dickie V.

I did turn it off!


Think your 1st paragraph is key. When teams press us like that, we have to make them pay and with Moore/Stanley/Carey as finishers that should work.

This.


I've been harder on Moore than just about anybody, because of his (at times) shaky handle, poor decision-making (at times) on passes, and the almost 100% inevitability of him putting his head down and going to the rim when he gets the ball (which always gives me PTSD flashbacks to DeMarcus Nelson's infuriating drives into traffic).
[snip]
But I'm coming around. ;)

Me, too. I think he will be a valuable contributor. Learning points: 1) not every drive has to end at the rim - practice floater 2) you have teammates - keep head up to spot open guys 3) ball security.


He leaned into Carey.. Bad call. One of many.

When the refs went to replay, I thought they were checking to see whether it should be a flagrant 1 for swinging elbows. Shocked to see that called on Vernon.


My biggest announcer idiocy was the Ajinko inbound foul call on Stanley that got Ewing T’d up. In real time I thought it was fairly obvious that Ajinko grabbed Stanley which impeded his jump and ability to grab the ball. Now the first couple of replay angles did not capture this well. Dakich and friend began their awful call tirade. Then the third angle showed clearly that Ajinko grabbed Stanley’s wrist. The announcers paused and I thought they were about to say “well that angle shows it was a good call” instead they said well maybe there was a little grab but it was still an awful call. It was like my 7 year old insisting he is correct in the face of definitive evidence that he is not. I wish they would pay my son to announce. He definitely less of a blowhard than Dakich.

LOL

[Kedsy]

I read that as Moore is being a tad more careful than he himself was earlier in the season.

OK. When I posted earlier, it didn't occur to me that he meant that, considering Wendell had as many turnovers in the Georgetown game (7) as he had in the previous four games combined.

[dukelifer]

I think K will do everything possible to win every game and, currently, ending games with White is probably our best option. I’d rather increase the probability of early losses and end games with Hurt for his March development. There will be a March game when we will need another scorer at the end of a game. This team can play great D, even with Hurt, if Carey stays out of foul trouble.

Hurt will figure it out- he has had a few nice games. But winning is also important and Jack has earned his playing time. Hurt was overmatched physically and that is really the issue. He needs to get stronger.

[Jeffrey]

Hurt was overmatched physically and that is really the issue. He needs to get stronger.

Duke was overmatched physically when Carey was out. Our senior/captain DeLaurier was so overmatched physically that he had to foul, or wait for White’s double, whenever Georgetown feed the post. When DeLaurier was on the court, White had to play.

[CDu]

OK. When I posted earlier, it didn't occur to me that he meant that, considering Wendell had as many turnovers in the Georgetown game (7) as he had in the previous four games combined.

To be fair, he also played 36 minutes on Friday, compared with 36 minutes the prior two games combined. And Georgetown was way better than CSU/GSU/Cal, and much more aggressive defensively than either CSU or Cal. The officials also called a ton of ticky-tack offensive fouls (two of his TOs were offensive fouls). And he played a much bigger role on offense than in most of his previous games, meaning more chances for turnovers.

So while raw turnover count was higher, in terms of turnovers relative to opportunity I would say his Georgetown game was a tad better ball control than his previous 3 games. And by any rate-based measure it was better ball control than his first two games (7 turnovers in 27 minutes) and the GSU game (2 turnovers in just 11 minutes).

So I do think the “a tad better” comment stands as reasonable. Especially so if looking beyond just the one game. His turnover rate is down relative to the first two games of the season, even ignoring aggressiveness of opposing D (GSU and Georgetown played the most aggressive D we have faced) and offensive role.

[rocketeli]

This game might give a good indication of the rotation going forward. Carey, Stanley, Moore and Jones are going to start, and if Stanley and Moore can generate enough offense, then K will prefer to play White for his defense, rebounding and general grittiness. We will see DeLaurier back up Carey and Goldwire in spot defensive situations or emergency point guard duties. The one remaining question is, if the offense needs a boost, who will step into the, ahem, White spot? Hurt is talented, but not physically able to play a power forward/inside game in college at this time. Baker can shoot, but it's unclear how much else he can do. AOC is physically gifted, but seems not to have the confidence of the coaching staff. (Honestly, it might have been the best thing for HIM to have transferred, but maybe he's been in the doghouse so long that he's got it decorated, put up pictures...) Of course things like injuries and so on happen so all this could change, but it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[SkyBrickey]

This game might give a good indication of the rotation going forward. Carey, Stanley, Moore and Jones are going to start, and if Stanley and Moore can generate enough offense, then K will prefer to play White for his defense, rebounding and general grittiness. We will see DeLaurier back up Carey and Goldwire in spot defensive situations or emergency point guard duties. The one remaining question is, if the offense needs a boost, who will step into the, ahem, White spot? Hurt is talented, but not physically able to play a power forward/inside game in college at this time. Baker can shoot, but it's unclear how much else he can do. AOC is physically gifted, but seems not to have the confidence of the coaching staff. (Honestly, it might have been the best thing for HIM to have transferred, but maybe he's been in the doghouse so long that he's got it decorated, put up pictures...) Of course things like injuries and so on happen so all this could change, but it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I suspect you are way undervaluing Hurt. Just a couple of weeks ago, everyone was convinced he was going to lead us in scoring this season. He wasn't ready for the physicality of Georgetown, but I expect he'll be back for us in a big way. Either he'll be in the starting line-up or a solid scoring 6th man off the bench getting starter's minutes...

[Saratoga2]

I suspect you are way undervaluing Hurt. Just a couple of weeks ago, everyone was convinced he was going to lead us in scoring this season. He wasn't ready for the physicality of Georgetown, but I expect he'll be back for us in a big way. Either he'll be in the starting line-up or a solid scoring 6th man off the bench getting starter's minutes....
I tend to agree with Rocketeli, in that Hurt has found the physicality of the college game as a hinderance to some of what worked at the high school level. Jack is a better choice with his experience, court awareness and physical strenght. Hurt was seen by the recruiters as having a very solid offensive game and decent defense as well. He willl have to make adaptatiions but his offensive moves and scoring ability can help this team going foward. The next two games at Cameron should allow him some time to find his way into more minutes with a demonstration of what he is capable of.

[Kedsy]

.
I tend to agree with Rocketeli, in that Hurt has found the physicality of the college game as a hinderance to some of what worked at the high school level. Jack is a better choice with his experience, court awareness and physical strenght. Hurt was seen by the recruiters as having a very solid offensive game and decent defense as well. He willl have to make adaptatiions but his offensive moves and scoring ability can help this team going foward.

Too many hot takes on this board. A couple games ago, people here were saying Wendell Moore was surely a four-year player who might not even be in the 7-man rotation this season. Now, after two decent games people are saying he's probably OAD.

More to the current point, before the Georgetown game Matthew Hurt had played more than 20 minutes in each of the five games. He scored 10+ ppg in those games with a 55% eFG% (including 40% from three). His rebounding has been weak for a "power forward," but other than that he didn't seemed overmatched by the "physicality of the college game." Sure, he has to gain strength and get used to that physicality, but writing him off after one 5 minute game is a bit premature.

[MChambers]

Too many hot takes on this board. A couple games ago, people here were saying Wendell Moore was surely a four-year player who might not even be in the 7-man rotation this season. Now, after two decent games people are saying he's probably OAD.

More to the current point, before the Georgetown game Matthew Hurt had played more than 20 minutes in each of the five games. He scored 10+ ppg in those games with a 55% eFG% (including 40% from three). His rebounding has been weak for a "power forward," but other than that he didn't seemed overmatched by the "physicality of the college game." Sure, he has to gain strength and get used to that physicality, but writing him off after one 5 minute game is a bit premature.

And Carey didn't look at that great his first few games and now he looks like a blend of Wendell Carter and Elton Brand.

People do have a big recency bias.

Hurt will be fine and will get lots of minutes.

[azzefkram]

Went to the game. It was a pro Duke crowd but not as much as I expected. There were a boatload of Georgetown fans there. I thought the officiating was fairly dreadful but seemed to benefit Duke overall. I thought Carey had a great game on both sides of the ball (Yurtseven did most of his damage after Big Vern picked up his fourth foul). Cassius and Wendell both stepped up big. Tre played well but not great (I think guarding Akinjo was a load). Jack "the Bumblebee" White did so many Jack White things. Georgetown seemed too physical for Alex, Matthew and Joey. I am a bit surprised that Jordan didn't see more time. I know he doesn't bring much offensively but I thought he could give Tre a break from guarding Akinjo. I don't think I've ever seen a 6'10" dude get stuffed at the rim as much as Javin does. He was so good last year at cleaning up around the rim.

While it was in no way pretty, it was still a win. Georgetown was a bit better than I expected.

[rocketeli]

Got some Hurt fans on this board, which is great. Just want to say that my opinion of him isn't a "hot take" if by that one means based on the last game played. I said he was gifted but would have trouble with the physicality of the college game after Duke's first game, IIRC, on these very boards. He can hopefully get stronger and/or learn some new ways to play.

[Troublemaker]

-Hurt has really disappeared. He hasn't been effective due to the physicality of the college game right now. He has too much skill to sit on the bench all season, but we need to figure out where he is most effective on offense.
-


1. I hate seeing what's happening to Hurt, slowly but surely—Coach K losing faith, and despite starting he ended up with five minutes. I think he's a great talent, but I don't think K (or Hurt himself) have solved the riddle of how to make him a productive offensive player when he's not posting up, which he rarely will with Vernon down low.

It's pretty simple. One example is to play pick-and-pop with Tre. Against standard defenses, he'll pop open some of the time. Against switches, he can then take the point guard down to the post. I'm not worried about a versatile offensive player like Hurt that can post small players but can also jab-step bigs and shoot threes (like he did against Kansas). We've been focused on defense and post play / establishing Vernon, and it has paid off handsomely. But Coach K's going to continue adding to the toolkit, and Matthew's time is coming. Once we focus more on creating scoring opportunities for Matthew, I have no doubt that we'll find some plays that work.



I start to wonder if we're going the way of him eventually becoming a backup center, almost...I'd hate to see him reduced to that,

Far more likely Matthew either solidifies the starting 4 spot or becomes the starting SF than the backup center. Like everyone else, I am concerned about Matthew's physicality but I think he moves his feet well enough to play the 3, allowing the physical Jack White to play the 4, if that is preferable.



1. This was a great defense of the no. 1 ranking. I love this team more and more, and I didn't necessarily expect to this year. Already dreaming of a repeat of the 2009-2010 cycle, where a dominant team who disappoints in the tournament is followed by a team nobody sees coming and who wins the title.

The 2009 team was not dominant, and the 2010 team was considered to be better even before winning the title.

I'm not sure what you're thinking of. My wild guess is that you're thinking of the 1999-2000-2001 sequence. The dominant '99 failed to win the title, the '00 team surprised everyone and won ACC titles and earned a 1 seed before falling in the Sweet 16, and then the bulk of that team returned to win the 2001 title. Essentially, your brain amalgamated the surprise '00 team with the '01 champs and then time-traveled them nine years into the future.

[Troublemaker]

When I saw Stanley in shoot around before the Co St game earlier this year, I could tell he had a great stroke. Really showed it off tonight. 3-3 from 3. 6-7 from the line.

Very happy to see Moore playing so well. This is what I expected based on his reputation coming in.

Jack White is a winner.

We can all worry about Hurt now, but I'm sure he'll bounce back better than ever. This was a game where we really needed Jack's physicality for defense and rebounding.

Georgetown impressed me. They were athletic and played hard. That's one of the better defenses we'll play this year. Not UVA good but very good. Great early season win for us.

Mad props to you, sir, if Stanley proves to be a good shooter this season. Generally speaking, I'm still going to use prior stats to predict future performance instead of relying on the eye test, but I'm a fan of the eye test and root for the eye test. I'm rooting hard for Stanley to be a good shooter, not just because Duke is a much better team if he can shoot, but because I want "form looks good in shootaround" to have an upset victory over "prior shooting stats."

[UrinalCake]

So here’s a question that came to mind - if Carey had actually fouled out (he played the last few minutes with four) with Javin having already fouled out (not a big surprise), who would we have used to guard Yurtseven? My guess is Jack, we already did use him on a few possessions to try to protect Carey. But he’s undersized to be defending a seven footer in the post. Our tallest guy among the other regulars is Hurt, but he’s not strong enough. Do we go with Robinson?

Yurtseven isn’t the type of player we’ll face very often, but we really had no answer for him defensively. We were fortunate that he picked up two fouls and sat for most of the first half (or perhaps this was great game planning and execution). Carey has been way better as a positional and help defender than I expected, but when matchup up against dominant post guys we are still really lacking in depth.

[Steven43]

Mad props to you, sir, if Stanley proves to be a good shooter this season. Generally speaking, I'm still going to use prior stats to predict future performance instead of relying on the eye test, but I'm a fan of the eye test and root for the eye test. I'm rooting hard for Stanley to be a good shooter, not just because Duke is a much better team if he can shoot, but because I want "form looks good in shootaround" to have an upset victory over "prior shooting stats."

I like this post. And I’m with you. Stats only provide a portion of the overall story. An example of what I’m trying to say is how some people look at Russell Westbrook’s triple-double stats and think that makes him perhaps the best player in the game, when in reality he’s not even in the top 10. He has shown in the playoffs the past two seasons just how valuable he really is (or is not).

Perhaps the failure comes in properly assessing his stats and what they actually mean to his team’s success rather than in the stats themselves.

As to Stanley, the infamous eye test tells me that he has a smooth stroke with solid, consistent form. I think he has the potential to be a good three-point shooter, regardless of what his past stats say.

[Troublemaker]

So here’s a question that came to mind - if Carey had actually fouled out (he played the last few minutes with four) with Javin having already fouled out (not a big surprise), who would we have used to guard Yurtseven? My guess is Jack, we already did use him on a few possessions to try to protect Carey. But he’s undersized to be defending a seven footer in the post. Our tallest guy among the other regulars is Hurt, but he’s not strong enough. Do we go with Robinson?

Yurtseven isn’t the type of player we’ll face very often, but we really had no answer for him defensively. We were fortunate that he picked up two fouls and sat for most of the first half (or perhaps this was great game planning and execution). Carey has been way better as a positional and help defender than I expected, but when matchup up against dominant post guys we are still really lacking in depth.

This already was answered in the Kansas game. Jack guarded Azubuike at times.

[Troublemaker]

I like this post. And I’m with you. Stats only provide a portion of the overall story. An example of what I’m trying to say is how some people look at Russell Westbrook’s triple-double stats and think that makes him perhaps the best player in the game, when in reality he’s not even in the top 10. He has shown in the playoffs the past two seasons just how valuable he really is (or is not).

Perhaps the failure comes in properly assessing his stats and what they actually mean to his team’s success rather than in the stats themselves.

As to Stanley, the infamous eye test tells me that he has a smooth stroke with solid, consistent form. I think he has the potential to be a good three-point shooter, regardless of what his past stats say.

I mean, it really could just simply be that Cassius has improved his shooting since the summer of 2018. Perhaps with the help of Duke's coaches. I know we've done a terrific job with Vernon, getting him into great shape and developing his post play to complement his previous faceup game. Maybe we're doing good work with Cassius and getting him to shoot with good form consistently.

Or perhaps all of that is wrong as Cassius' shooting numbers will dip back to previous norms as the sample size grows. We'll see.

[SkyBrickey]

Mad props to you, sir, if Stanley proves to be a good shooter this season. Generally speaking, I'm still going to use prior stats to predict future performance instead of relying on the eye test, but I'm a fan of the eye test and root for the eye test. I'm rooting hard for Stanley to be a good shooter, not just because Duke is a much better team if he can shoot, but because I want "form looks good in shootaround" to have an upset victory over "prior shooting stats."

It’s possible he worked really hard on his shot in the off season and just got a lot better. Maybe it was a tweak to his form. Maybe it was repetition. 1000 jumpers a day or something. I agree that would be very unusual but not unprecedented.

I also know that’s not the stroke of a 20% 3 point shooter and 60% foul shooter. With his athleticism he could be both a a superstar and a poor shooter in high school. Shooting was optional. Time will tell whether it holds. It’s a big surprise asset for this team if it does.

[SkyBrickey]

I mean, it really could just simply be that Cassius has improved his shooting since the summer of 2018. Perhaps with the help of Duke's coaches. I know we've done a terrific job with Vernon, getting him into great shape and developing his post play to complement his previous faceup game. Maybe we're doing good work with Cassius and getting him to shoot with good form consistently.

Or perhaps all of that is wrong as Cassius' shooting numbers will dip back to previous norms as the sample size grows. We'll see.

Ha. Ok. I didn’t read this before my post. We share the same theory and agree time will tell. Let’s go Cassius. Keep knocking them down! Love too that he is taking only good shots. No forces.

[COYS]

It’s possible he worked really hard on his shot in the off season and just got a lot better. Maybe it was a tweak to his form. Maybe it was repetition. 1000 jumpers a day or something. I agree that would be very unusual but not unprecedented.

I also know that’s not the stroke of a 20% 3 point shooter and 60% foul shooter. With his athleticism he could be both a a superstar and a poor shooter in high school. Shooting was optional. Time will tell whether it holds. It’s a big surprise asset for this team if it does.

It’s also worth pointing out Cassius’ three point shots all came from the shorter distance near the corner. That is just smart basketball and I hope he continues to take the majority of his three point shots from there. If indeed he is improving his shooting consistency, putting him in the best place to succeed can only help.

And if some of the main starters can begin to hit three point shots consistently, the ceiling for this team rises quite a bit.

[budwom]

Seems pretty clear that we have a core of seven guys with the toughness to compete in brawls as K requires (Vernon, Stanley, Jones, Moore, White, Goldwire (gotta have an alternate guard) and Javin (for size).
Which leaves the three slender lads (Joey Donuts, AOC and Hurt) competing to see who merits more time vs quality opponents. All have attributes and potential, all need to toughen up a bit. Should be interesting

[Troublemaker]

Seems pretty clear that we have a core of seven guys with the toughness to compete in brawls as K requires (Vernon, Stanley, Jones, Moore, White, Goldwire (gotta have an alternate guard) and Javin (for size).
Which leaves the three slender lads (Joey Donuts, AOC and Hurt) competing to see who merits more time vs quality opponents. All have attributes and potential, all need to toughen up a bit. Should be interesting

It's been mostly folly to try predict who's in and out of a "core" six or seven so far this season. Many a DBR poster has focused on the last thing they saw and made a wrong prediction. Personally, I would be absolutely flabbergasted if Hurt isn't top-6 in minutes by the end of the season.

[budwom]

It's been mostly folly to try predict who's in and out of a "core" six or seven so far this season. Many a DBR poster has focused on the last thing they saw and made a wrong prediction. Personally, I would be absolutely flabbergasted if Hurt isn't top-6 in minutes by the end of the season.

true...but I think it's pretty clear that the seven guys I mention are pretty much assured of a lot of future play, while the other three have something yet to prove...agree that Hurt's shooting and skills give him a major leg up, but he's got to get tougher.

[Edouble]

Seems pretty clear that we have a core of seven guys with the toughness to compete in brawls as K requires (Vernon, Stanley, Jones, Moore, White, Goldwire (gotta have an alternate guard) and Javin (for size).
Which leaves the three slender lads (Joey Donuts, AOC and Hurt) competing to see who merits more time vs quality opponents. All have attributes and potential, all need to toughen up a bit. Should be interesting

From https://goduke.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster

Alex - 6'6" 190
Cassius - 6'6" 193
Joey - 6'7" 208

Joey and AOC do not appear to be any more slender than Cassius, FYI. They weren't the dogs Coach K wanted in the Georgetown fight, but I don't think it's all for their physical size.

[Troublemaker]

true...but I think it's pretty clear that the seven guys I mention are pretty much assured of a lot of future play, while the other three have something yet to prove...agree that Hurt's shooting and skills give him a major leg up, but he's got to get tougher.

Depends on what you mean by "a lot." I'd set the over/under on JGold's minutes per game for the rest of the season at 5 mpg. I'd set Javin's mpg the rest of the way at 10 because I think we're going to try to play Vernon as much as possible. Matthew's going to be ahead of those guys for sure. Despite what happened with his playing time in the Gtown game, I wouldn't group him with AOC and Joey.

[jipops]

Depends on what you mean by "a lot." I'd set the over/under on JGold's minutes per game for the rest of the season at 5 mpg. I'd set Javin's mpg the rest of the way at 10 because I think we're going to try to play Vernon as much as possible. Matthew's going to be ahead of those guys for sure. Despite what happened with his playing time in the Gtown game, I wouldn't group him with AOC and Joey.

I agree. Hurt and AOC are not going to be left out of the rotation based on their poor outings this past weekend. These two guys, Hurt especially, are guys that can provide offense and this team is still going to need it. I wouldn't count on Goldwire getting a spike in minutes either down the road. And Javin's case of Casey Sanders hands isn't going to keep him on the floor for very long either. Hurt really has to be out there if Javin is in for Carey.

Also, I don't think it's as much as a strength issue for Hurt, it is somewhat, as much as adjusting to the game speed. Hurt has obvious skills so I think he's going to get more comfortable as the season goes on. It's not like he has actual skills he has to add in order to already be effective. There is a breakout game for him coming.

[Kedsy]

Seems pretty clear that we have a core of seven guys with the toughness to compete in brawls as K requires (Vernon, Stanley, Jones, Moore, White, Goldwire (gotta have an alternate guard) and Javin (for size).
Which leaves the three slender lads (Joey Donuts, AOC and Hurt) competing to see who merits more time vs quality opponents. All have attributes and potential, all need to toughen up a bit. Should be interesting


It's been mostly folly to try predict who's in and out of a "core" six or seven so far this season. Many a DBR poster has focused on the last thing they saw and made a wrong prediction. Personally, I would be absolutely flabbergasted if Hurt isn't top-6 in minutes by the end of the season.

I agree with Troublemaker. Actually, I'll go out on a limb and predict that all three of your "slender lads" end up with more minutes this season than Jordan Goldwire.

[slower]

And Javin's case of Casey Sanders hands

Is that similar to "Bette Davis Eyes"? :p

[jv001]

Agree with Troublemaker on Jordan and Javin(JJs). I think their minutes will go down in ACC play. One thing they both have in common is poor shooting but Jordan can be used in press situations and is strong enough to compete with other guards. Javin on the other hand seems to have regressed. The plays that are called for him to post up for entry passes will be a turnover waiting to happen in ACC play. His best attribute on offense is cleaning up missed shots and on those I'd rather see a kick back out for an open 3. As for Jordan spelling Tre at the point, I think Moore will be the primary ball handler when and if Tre get's a rest. Moore has the size to defend bigger guards and the quickness to go along with that size. We are really blessed to have Cassius and Wendell at the wing positions. If Wendell can hit the 3, he will be hard to contain because he can drive the ball. I would however like to see him clean up his handle in traffic. Maybe for some passes to open 3 point shooters or to Vernon in the inside. Like Kedsy posted, it's too early to make rash statements(hot-takes) about our freshmen. Not too early to make those statements regarding our upper classmen. We have some history with them.

GoDuke!

[budwom]

I agree with Troublemaker. Actually, I'll go out on a limb and predict that all three of your "slender lads" end up with more minutes this season than Jordan Goldwire.

Yeah, I could see that happening. They all havel the potential, but each has something to prove, IMO.

As far as the weight discussion goes, you Duke roster height and weight can be what you want them to be. Regardless of Hurt's weight, he needs to adjust to the physicality of NCAA ball, and I suspect that he will.
As for AOC and Baker, both are well capable of being in the big game rotation, but I wouldn't at all be surprised to see one of them not make it. We'll see...(or, "is this the year we play nine or ten guys). :)

(if all three of AOC, Hurt and Joey Donuts make the big game rotation, that's nine guys, or 10 if you add in Goldwire)...historically this is pushing things. I'd love to see it but am skeptical that I will see it.

[budwom]

I agree with Troublemaker. Actually, I'll go out on a limb and predict that all three of your "slender lads" end up with more minutes this season than Jordan Goldwire.

I think this will be interesting. I did go checkout last year's ACC Tournament and NCAA Tournament minutes, and Goldwire averaged 17 minutes/game in the former, and 10/game in the latter.

As such, I pretty much see Carey, Jones, Moore and Stanley as locks for 10+ mpg in games that matter.
I see White and DeLaurier as strong candidates as well....despite possible shooting woes, White is tough and defends; I think we need DeLaurier's size.

I agree that Hurt will almost certainly join this group; but I'd also argue (nah, that's too strong a word for this kind of discussion, let's say "opine") that K likes Goldwire and he'll get minutes.

That's eight right there, bumping up against our historical average ( we know can be as low as 6.5)...

So if AOC and Joey Donuts play up to capabilities, (and they may very well) that's ten guys, and we all know what we say about K playing ten guys. More parity this year, perhaps, in our talent, maybe things change?

(thus far this season we have ten guys averaging > 10mpg, fwiw, will the rotation tighten?)

[SkyBrickey]

I believe Hurt will play rotation minutes. Top 15 recruit. Supposedly our best scorer entering into the season. He's been a little up and down, and Coach did pull him for Georgetown, but Wendell and Vernon have also had games where they were basically asked to take a seat. I wouldn't read too much into his Georgetown minutes.

I think Goldwire (defense, energy) and Baker (shooting, zone buster) both have special skills that will earn them minutes - some games more than others depending on the match-ups.

I think AOC may be at risk of dropping to 10th man minutes. It's a little bit Wendell's emergence and a little bit that he's just not making shots. We need AOC to bring offense - 35%+ from 3 and aggressive drives to the rim. I hope he figures it out, fights back, and earns playing time. I'm a big fan and think he has always had tons of potential, but as strong as Cassius and Moore look, and with Goldwire and Baker doing their thing, he could end up on the outside looking in as the rotation tightens.

[sagegrouse]

I believe Hurt will play rotation minutes. Top 15 recruit. Supposedly our best scorer entering into the season. He's been a little up and down, and Coach did pull him for Georgetown, but Wendell and Vernon have also had games where they were basically asked to take a seat. I wouldn't read too much into his Georgetown minutes.

I think Goldwire (defense, energy) and Baker (shooting, zone buster) both have special skills that will earn them minutes - some games more than others depending on the match-ups.

I think AOC may be at risk of dropping to 10th man minutes. It's a little bit Wendell's emergence and a little bit that he's just not making shots. We need AOC to bring offense - 35%+ from 3 and aggressive drives to the rim. I hope he figures it out, fights back, and earns playing time. I'm a big fan and think he has always had tons of potential, but as strong as Cassius and Moore look, and with Goldwire and Baker doing their thing, he could end up on the outside looking in as the rotation tightens.

I tend to be data-driven on minutes. Here are the 2019 minutes per game for the returning players (based on 38 games):
DeLaurier 16.3
Goldwire 7.9
Jones 32.4
O'Connell 13.3
White 18.8

The freshman are not as good as the freshman who played last year. Moreover, Bolden left as well. Therefore, I expect each of these players to play more minutes in 2020 than last year. So, when K says he's gonna play ten players, I believe him. The returning players will play -- the freshmen will play for sure -- and Joey Baker will play if he can shoot his way onto the court.

Starting this year, I was really pulling for Joey Baker (God, it is really hard not to type "Joey Beard") because he'd been dealt a bad hand. But I think he will be fine.

Now I'm really pulling for Javin DeLaurier. He can be much better in all phases of the game than what he's shown so far.

Jordan Goldwire played less than the other returning players, but didn't you think K really called on him in critical games at the end of the season?

Anyway, "ten players," I say, or, nine at the least.

[Billy Dat]

I think AOC may be at risk of dropping to 10th man minutes. It's a little bit Wendell's emergence and a little bit that he's just not making shots. We need AOC to bring offense - 35%+ from 3 and aggressive drives to the rim. I hope he figures it out, fights back, and earns playing time. I'm a big fan and think he has always had tons of potential, but as strong as Cassius and Moore look, and with Goldwire and Baker doing their thing, he could end up on the outside looking in as the rotation tightens.

I think AOC lacks the elusive but oh-so-valuable "feel" for the game.

Despite his obvious physical talents and athleticism, he never seems to get himself in optimal position to score. How often do you see him catch a pass on the wing only to immediately hot potato it back to the original passer, without making the defense stretch or even think? How often do you see him redirect to a better place on the perimeter while the ball moves around to get himself into a great position for an open look? How often does he make a great read on defense?

These things do happen, but they don't happen nearly often enough. When they do happen, it almost seems like a lucky accident.

Think about the difference in athleticism between he and Ty Jerome yet which one was a starter on a title team and All Conference player? "Feel" is huge.

It's also huge to not be up inside your own head thinking too much which he clearly is.

[budwom]

I think AOC lacks the elusive but oh-so-valuable "feel" for the game.

Despite his obvious physical talents and athleticism, he never seems to get himself in optimal position to score. How often do you see him catch a pass on the wing only to immediately hot potato it back to the original passer, without making the defense stretch or even think? How often do you see him redirect to a better place on the perimeter while the ball moves around to get himself into a great position for an open look? How often does he make a great read on defense?

These things do happen, but they don't happen nearly often enough. When they do happen, it almost seems like a lucky accident.

Think about the difference in athleticism between he and Ty Jerome yet which one was a starter on a title team and All Conference player? "Feel" is huge.

It's also huge to not be up inside your own head thinking too much which he clearly is.

yup, sometimes it all suddenly clicks for a guy, sometimes it never does. He's got the physical attributes necessary it would seem...

[elvis14]

I think AOC lacks the elusive but oh-so-valuable "feel" for the game.

Despite his obvious physical talents and athleticism, he never seems to get himself in optimal position to score. How often do you see him catch a pass on the wing only to immediately hot potato it back to the original passer, without making the defense stretch or even think? How often do you see him redirect to a better place on the perimeter while the ball moves around to get himself into a great position for an open look? How often does he make a great read on defense?

These things do happen, but they don't happen nearly often enough. When they do happen, it almost seems like a lucky accident.

Think about the difference in athleticism between he and Ty Jerome yet which one was a starter on a title team and All Conference player? "Feel" is huge.

It's also huge to not be up inside your own head thinking too much which he clearly is.

Great post. I think you're spot on. Hopefully, as budworm, mentions it 'clicks' for him because he has the skill, size and athleticism to be a really good basketball player. He just isn't. I think we would all love for that to change.

[Neals384]

I think AOC lacks the elusive but oh-so-valuable "feel" for the game.

Despite his obvious physical talents and athleticism, he never seems to get himself in optimal position to score. How often do you see him catch a pass on the wing only to immediately hot potato it back to the original passer, without making the defense stretch or even think? How often do you see him redirect to a better place on the perimeter while the ball moves around to get himself into a great position for an open look? How often does he make a great read on defense?

These things do happen, but they don't happen nearly often enough. When they do happen, it almost seems like a lucky accident.

Think about the difference in athleticism between he and Ty Jerome yet which one was a starter on a title team and All Conference player? "Feel" is huge.

It's also huge to not be up inside your own head thinking too much which he clearly is.

Agree, this is a good take on his game. It does seem like he has no plan of what to do before the ball gets to him. “Ok, here I am on the 3 pt line; my man is way off me. If I get the ball I’m shooting”. Or, “if I get the the ball I’ll fake a shot and drive” or, “look at the great position Vernon has I’ll make an immediate entry pass “. Instead there often seems to be a pause for thought or indecision.

[Saratoga2]

Agree with Troublemaker on Jordan and Javin(JJs). I think their minutes will go down in ACC play. One thing they both have in common is poor shooting but Jordan can be used in press situations and is strong enough to compete with other guards. Javin on the other hand seems to have regressed. The plays that are called for him to post up for entry passes will be a turnover waiting to happen in ACC play. His best attribute on offense is cleaning up missed shots and on those I'd rather see a kick back out for an open 3. As for Jordan spelling Tre at the point, I think Moore will be the primary ball handler when and if Tre get's a rest. Moore has the size to defend bigger guards and the quickness to go along with that size. We are really blessed to have Cassius and Wendell at the wing positions. If Wendell can hit the 3, he will be hard to contain because he can drive the ball. I would however like to see him clean up his handle in traffic. Maybe for some passes to open 3 point shooters or to Vernon in the inside. Like Kedsy posted, it's too early to make rash statements(hot-takes) about our freshmen. Not too early to make those statements regarding our upper classmen. We have some history with them.

GoDuke!

I wonder if Moore can handle the ball against an aggressive press.

[Saratoga2]

I think AOC lacks the elusive but oh-so-valuable "feel" for the game.

Despite his obvious physical talents and athleticism, he never seems to get himself in optimal position to score. How often do you see him catch a pass on the wing only to immediately hot potato it back to the original passer, without making the defense stretch or even think? How often do you see him redirect to a better place on the perimeter while the ball moves around to get himself into a great position for an open look? How often does he make a great read on defense?

These things do happen, but they don't happen nearly often enough. When they do happen, it almost seems like a lucky accident.

Think about the difference in athleticism between he and Ty Jerome yet which one was a starter on a title team and All Conference player? "Feel" is huge.

It's also huge to not be up inside your own head thinking too much which he clearly is.

sadly, I think you are correct. I thought he was deferential in the past but maybe it is just feel for the game.

[kAzE]

I think AOC lacks the elusive but oh-so-valuable "feel" for the game.

Despite his obvious physical talents and athleticism, he never seems to get himself in optimal position to score. How often do you see him catch a pass on the wing only to immediately hot potato it back to the original passer, without making the defense stretch or even think? How often do you see him redirect to a better place on the perimeter while the ball moves around to get himself into a great position for an open look? How often does he make a great read on defense?

These things do happen, but they don't happen nearly often enough. When they do happen, it almost seems like a lucky accident.

Think about the difference in athleticism between he and Ty Jerome yet which one was a starter on a title team and All Conference player? "Feel" is huge.

It's also huge to not be up inside your own head thinking too much which he clearly is.


I'm trying really hard not to give a hot take here with only 6 real games of data, but I think I'm just about done with Alex O'Connell for good. I was hopeful after he appeared to have leveled up in a few of our earlier games, but he's just never consistent, never reliable. He clearly has the skills and the athleticism to contribute, but he always manages to be invisible in the big games.

I agree with you, it just seems like he has no feel for the game. He often passes up wide open shots, which drives me crazy. You're in the game to space the floor!!

I'm sure he will put up some more good stats against our easier opponents, but I expect his minutes to be around 5 minutes or less in the tough games. If we need a spot up shooter off the bench, I prefer Joey Baker. At least Baker is confident in his shot and is always ready to shoot it when he gets his chance.

On Wendell:

I do think he's getting better and better, but he's still kind of a ball stopper, and seems to predetermine what he's going to do, instead of reading and reacting to the defense. I think he'll keep improving, but he's gotta make quicker decisions with the ball in order to limit his turnovers. This team is short on ball handlers, so if he can develop into a reliable secondary guy who can make plays, that would be massive for this team. I have no issues with his defense, though.

[Billy Dat]

I'm trying really hard not to give a hot take here with only 6 real games of data, but I think I'm just about done with Alex O'Connell for good. I was hopeful after he appeared to have leveled up in a few of our earlier games, but he's just never consistent, never reliable. He clearly has the skills and the athleticism to contribute, but he always manages to be invisible in the big games.

Well, it's clear now that we are throwing dirt on him, he'll undoubtedly go on a tear! If only it were that easy.

He definitely seems like the kind of kid who needs minutes and to not fear the hook. But, we've got too many players on this squad for that kind of luxury. He also doesn't seem like the classic K type player in that I have seen or read about K questioning his seriousness - I distinctly remember him saying that he and Goldwire were too "giddy" as freshmen. So, it could be a bad match between coach and player. Theories abound. I keep thinking about Marty Pocius, a guy who was really athletic and offense-focused who never got off the bench (he did have some serious injuries) and then went on to be a really good pro and national team player after Duke.

[azzefkram]

Well, it's clear now that we are throwing dirt on him, he'll undoubtedly go on a tear! If only it were that easy.

He definitely seems like the kind of kid who needs minutes and to not fear the hook. But, we've got too many players on this squad for that kind of luxury. He also doesn't seem like the classic K type player in that I have seen or read about K questioning his seriousness - I distinctly remember him saying that he and Goldwire were too "giddy" as freshmen. So, it could be a bad match between coach and player. Theories abound. I keep thinking about Marty Pocius, a guy who was really athletic and offense-focused who never got off the bench (he did have some serious injuries) and then went on to be a really good pro and national team player after Duke.

I'm hoping this is just a slump. Alex seemed much better on both sides of the ball early on but his D the past few games has been very reminiscent of Soph Alex. The Pocius comp is looking more and more apropos though I'm not sure Alex has the same calves.