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jimsumner
11-17-2019, 12:27 PM
From ACC

Atlantic Coast Conference football game times and networks for the weekend of Nov. 23 have been updated. On Saturday, Nov. 23, Pitt will play at Virginia Tech at 3:30 p.m. on ESPN2 and Duke will play at Wake Forest at 7:30 p.m. on ACCN.

Thursday, Nov. 21
NC State at Georgia Tech, 8 p.m., ESPN

Saturday, Nov. 23
Liberty at Virginia, Noon, RSN
Boston College at Notre Dame, 2:30 p.m., NBC
Mercer at North Carolina, 3:30 p.m., RSN
Pitt at Virginia Tech, 3:30 p.m., ESPN2 (updated)
Syracuse at Louisville, 4 p.m., ACCN
Miami at FIU, 7 p.m., CBSSN
Duke at Wake Forest, 7:30 p.m., ACCN (updated)

Open Dates: Clemson, Florida State

hallcity
11-17-2019, 12:57 PM
Two teams on the slide playing on a probably cold November night. Increasingly ACC football is a made (only) for TV event.

budwom
11-17-2019, 01:00 PM
Two teams on the slide playing on a probably cold November night. Increasingly ACC football is a made (only) for TV event.

Well, I guess it depends upon your definition of "slide." This Wake team is likely to end the regular season with nine wins (they have seven already, a win vs. Duke is a given, and they should probably beat Syracuse).
At this point, I'd love a slide like Wake's...

Acymetric
11-17-2019, 01:04 PM
Well, I guess it depends upon your definition of "slide." This Wake team is likely to end the regular season with nine wins (they have seven already, a win vs. Duke is a given, and they should probably beat Syracuse).
At this point, I'd love a slide like Wake's...

They lost to a Virginia Tech team that appears to have righted the ship since earlier this year, and Clemson who is probably one of the best 2 or 3 teams in the country. I agree "slide" is a strange choice of words there.

Reilly
11-17-2019, 01:33 PM
Per espn FPI, WFU is #53 in the country, and Duke is #67. Duke with a 32% chance of beating WFU, and a 10% chance of winning out and getting 6 wins: http://www.espn.com/college-football/team/fpi?id=150&year=2019

Reilly
11-17-2019, 01:35 PM
Per SRS, WFU is #40 in the country and Duke #73, and WFU about 5 points better on a neutral field -- so, 8 points at home: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/years/2019-ratings.html

HereBeforeCoachK
11-17-2019, 01:38 PM
Per SRS, WFU is #40 in the country and Duke #73, and WFU about 5 points better on a neutral field -- so, 8 points at home: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/years/2019-ratings.html

And 52 points better at Duke.

Acymetric
11-17-2019, 01:39 PM
Per SRS, WFU is #40 in the country and Duke #73, and WFU about 5 points better on a neutral field -- so, 8 points at home: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/years/2019-ratings.html

Kind of crazy that the difference between #40 and #73 is 5 points. Thanks for the stats!

Reilly
11-17-2019, 01:41 PM
Duke leads all-time 58-39-2 ... Cut at Duke is 5-6 against WFU (5-2 since 2012).

Wake Forest (58-39-2)
1889 N L 0-32
1889 A W 8-4
1893 N W 12-6
1921 N W 17-0
1922 N W 3-0
1923 A L 6-16
1924 H L 0-32
1925 H L 3-21
1926 N L 0-21
1927 A W 32-6
1928 H W 38-0
1929 H W 20-0
1930 A T 13-13
1931 H W 28-0
1932 H W 9-0
1933 H W 22-0
1934 H W 28-7
1935 N W 26-7
1936 A W 20-0
1937 H W 67-0
1938 N W 7-0
1939 H W 6-0
1940 A W 23-0
1941 H W 43-14
1942 A L 7-20
1944 H W 34-0
1945 A W 26-19
1946 H W 13-0
1947 A W 13-6
1948 H L 20-27
1949 H L 7-27
1950 H L 7-13
1951 H L 13-19
1952 A W 14-7
1953 H W 19-0
1954 A W 28-21
1955 H W 14-0
1956 A W 26-0
1957 H W 34-7
1958 A W 29-0
1959 H W 27-15
1960 A W 34-7
1961 H W 23-3
1962 A W 50-0
1963 H W 39-7
1964 A L 7-20
1965 H W 40-7
1967 N W 31-13
1968 H W 18-3
1969 A W 27-20
1970 H L 14-28
1971 A L 7-23
1972 H L 7-9
1973 A T 7-7
1974 H W 23-7
1975 A W 42-14
1976 H L 17-38
1977 A W 38-14
1978 H W 3-0
1979 A L 14-17
1980 H L 24-27
1981 A W 31-10
1982 H W 46-26
1983 A W 31-21
1984 H L 16-20
1985 A L 7-27
1986 H W 38-36
1987 A L 27-30
1988 H L 16-35
1989 A W 52-35
1990 H W 57-20
1991 A L 14-31
1992 H L 14-28
1993 A W 21-13
1994 A W 51-26
1995 H W 42-26
1996 A L 16-17
1997 H L 24-38
1998 A W 19-16
1999 H W 48-35
2000 A L 26-28
2001 H L 35-42
2002 A L 10-36
2003 H L 13-42
2004 A L 22-24
2005 H L 6-44
2006 A L 13-14
2007 H L 36-41
2008 OT A L 30-33
2009 H L 34-45
2010 A L 48-54
2011 H L 23-24
2012 A W 34-27
2013 A W 28-21
2014 H W 41-21
2015 A W 27-21
2016 H L 14-24
2017 A W 31-23
2018 H L 7-59

HereBeforeCoachK
11-17-2019, 01:43 PM
Kind of crazy that the difference between #40 and #73 is 5 points. Thanks for the stats!

Something I'm pretty sure Saturday's game will validate.....the "crazy" part that is. I wouldn't take Duke +24.

Reilly
11-17-2019, 02:01 PM
In 2017, Duke was 4-6 and beat GT and WFU at the end of the year. GT ended the year as the #39 best team; WFU #22. Duke finished #37 (w/ an O (0.46) that paled in comparison to its D (6.77)). https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/years/2017-ratings.html

In 2019, Duke is 4-6 and needs to beat WFU and Mia at the end of the year. WFU is #40 best team now; Mia #35. Duke is #73 (w/ an O (-1.83) that pales in comparison to its D (1.99)). https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/years/2019-ratings.html

Let's go beat WFU at night, get payback for last year, and make T'giving weekend interesting.

Reilly
11-17-2019, 02:21 PM
The following P5 teams are rated below Duke in both the SRS and the ESPN PRI:


Arkansas 2-8
Ariz 4-6
Colo 4-6
GT 2-8
Kansas 3-7
MD 3-7
NCSU 4-6
Northwestern 2-8
Rutgers 2-8
Vandy 2-8
WVU 4-6

devildeac
11-17-2019, 02:26 PM
Well, now that the Duke-WFU KO is 730 PM, perhaps if our team showed up about noon, we *might* be able to put a couple FG on the scoreboard before the Deacs arrived...

HereBeforeCoachK
11-17-2019, 02:58 PM
The following P5 teams are rated below Duke in both the SRS and the ESPN PRI:


Arkansas 2-8
Ariz 4-6
Colo 4-6
GT 2-8
Kansas 3-7
MD 3-7
NCSU 4-6
Northwestern 2-8
Rutgers 2-8
Vandy 2-8
WVU 4-6

I'm not sure those teams are worse than Duke right now. Duke is 1-5 in its last six, and the one win was Georgia Tech, on that list. We're looking down the barrel at 4-8.

budwom
11-17-2019, 03:17 PM
Per espn FPI, WFU is #53 in the country, and Duke is #67. Duke with a 32% chance of beating WFU, and a 10% chance of winning out and getting 6 wins: http://www.espn.com/college-football/team/fpi?id=150&year=2019

I very much enjoy your posts, Reilly, but I'm amazed you're sticking with this methodology. Do you really think we have a 32% chance of beating Wake? Hope I'm wrong, but I think that's utterly crazy...the point spreads the past two weeks kind of make the point....we're in a free fall, and stats based on the entire season seem to have little relevance. You had us with a 73% chance of beating Syracuse which sounded absurd, and obviously was
(or is this tongue in cheek)?

OldPhiKap
11-17-2019, 03:39 PM
Two teams on the slide playing on a probably cold November night. Increasingly ACC football is a made (only) for TV event.


Well, I guess it depends upon your definition of "slide."

Depends on what you mean by “TV.”

We don’t get ACCN. So I’m missing like volleyball and stuff as best I can tell.

Acymetric
11-17-2019, 04:46 PM
I very much enjoy your posts, Reilly, but I'm amazed you're sticking with this methodology. Do you really think we have a 32% chance of beating Wake? Hope I'm wrong, but I think that's utterly crazy...the point spreads the past two weeks kind of make the point...we're in a free fall, and stats based on the entire season seem to have little relevance. You had us with a 73% chance of beating Syracuse which sounded absurd, and obviously was
(or is this tongue in cheek)?

He's just providing the stats per the ESPN FPI, I don't believe it necessarily represents his opinion.

Reilly
11-17-2019, 04:55 PM
I very much enjoy your posts, Reilly ...

I stopped reading here.

These are not my projections ... these are the computer projections, given all the givens. I do not know (or care, really) whether the computers figure the recency stuff -- maybe some do, to some degree.

There are times when I'm positive that a point spread or computer projection is out of whack -- I really wish I lived in a state w/ legalized sports gambling and knew that ND was only a 7-point favorite over Navy -- I knew ND would destroy them given what I saw at the Duke game.

I did not know Syracuse would destroy Duke. We are struggling, to be sure. That said, if the first FG goes through for Duke; if there's not a contested pick 6; what have you ...

WFU has gotten more love this year than it has deserved, in my opinion. We have shown real toughness and fortitude and even efficiency (granted, it feels so long ago). We are capable, believe it or not. For so many years, we were not capable -- no way, no how. That's not this team -- we actually are (or, were). Whether we will or won't this weekend is a different matter (and you believe we won't -- and we might not -- I agree we may just throw in the towell). But given that we've proven we are somewhat capable during this very season, and WFU is no world beater, and football is a funny sport, and it's not like WFU has stockpiled talent like a ND or Bama, well then, a 30% chance at victory is not that outlandish, is it?

Reilly
11-17-2019, 05:02 PM
Wake favored by 6.5 points: https://www.vegasinsider.com/college-football/teams/team-page.cfm/team/duke

*no disrespect intended by the lowecase u -- apparently post subjects w/ typos cannot be edited by the poster

devildeac
11-17-2019, 05:58 PM
Wake favored by 6.5 points: https://www.vegasinsider.com/college-football/teams/team-page.cfm/team/duke

*no disrespect intended by the lowecase u -- apparently post subjects w/ typos cannot be edited by the poster

Hmmm, let's see if RJ199 re-opens his pie bet...

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-17-2019, 06:02 PM
The following P5 teams are rated below Duke in both the SRS and the ESPN PRI:


Arkansas 2-8
Ariz 4-6
Colo 4-6
GT 2-8
Kansas 3-7
MD 3-7
NCSU 4-6
Northwestern 2-8
Rutgers 2-8
Vandy 2-8
WVU 4-6

Haha, State. (Sorry PackPride)

Devilwin
11-17-2019, 06:05 PM
What's "Slim To None" come out percentage wise?

HereBeforeCoachK
11-17-2019, 06:14 PM
Wake favored by 6.5 points: https://www.vegasinsider.com/college-football/teams/team-page.cfm/team/duke

*no disrespect intended by the lowecase u -- apparently post subjects w/ typos cannot be edited by the poster


Actually it was a lower case FU......maybe prophetic?

devilirium
11-17-2019, 06:26 PM
I stopped reading here.

These are not my projections ... these are the computer projections, given all the givens. I do not know (or care, really) whether the computers figure the recency stuff -- maybe some do, to some degree.

There are times when I'm positive that a point spread or computer projection is out of whack -- I really wish I lived in a state w/ legalized sports gambling and knew that ND was only a 7-point favorite over Navy -- I knew ND would destroy them given what I saw at the Duke game.

I did not know Syracuse would destroy Duke. We are struggling, to be sure. That said, if the first FG goes through for Duke; if there's not a contested pick 6; what have you ...

WFU has gotten more love this year than it has deserved, in my opinion. We have shown real toughness and fortitude and even efficiency (granted, it feels so long ago). We are capable, believe it or not. For so many years, we were not capable -- no way, no how. That's not this team -- we actually are (or, were). Whether we will or won't this weekend is a different matter (and you believe we won't -- and we might not -- I agree we may just throw in the towell). But given that we've proven we are somewhat capable during this very season, and WFU is no world beater, and football is a funny sport, and it's not like WFU has stockpiled talent like a ND or Bama, well then, a 30% chance at victory is not that outlandish, is it?

It IS outlandlish this year. They may not have stockpiled talent, but said talent is better coached. Moreover, we have not scored over 17 pts in 5 weeks. That doesn't bear well against a team that could put up that much in less than a quarter against Duke. Not to mention we have a QB that seemingly loves to throw it to the other team in bunches. QH has regressed considerably--morphed into Chris Dapolito or Adam Smith. It would be quite something if Duke would even lose by 10 or so to Wake.

DU82
11-17-2019, 06:38 PM
What's "Slim To None" come out percentage wise?

“slim left town.”

Reilly
11-17-2019, 07:04 PM
WFU

+42 Elon
+34 NCSU
+20 @Rice
+06 uNC
+03 Utah St
+03 @BC
+02 FSU
----------------------
-03 Lville
-19 @VT
-49 @Clemson

WFU is 3-1 in games decided by 0-3 points ... and consequently is 7-3 rather than 4-6.

DUKE

+35 @VT
+32 NCAT
+23 @MTSU
+18 GT
------------------------
-03 Pitt
-03 @UNC
-31 ND
-34 @UVa
-39 (N) Alabama
-43 Syr

Duke is 0-2 in games decided by 0-3 points ... and consequently is 4-6 rather than 6-4.

If this game were 6-4 Duke against 4-6 WFU, how confident would you be?

That scenario is not *that* much different than what we have (4-6 Duke v. 7-3 WFU).

Acymetric
11-17-2019, 07:09 PM
WFU

+42 Elon
+34 NCSU
+20 @Rice
+06 uNC
+03 Utah St
+03 @BC
+02 FSU
----------------------
-03 Lville
-19 @VT
-49 @Clemson

WFU is 3-1 in games decided by 0-3 points ... and consequently is 7-3 rather than 4-6.

DUKE

+35 @VT
+32 NCAT
+23 @MTSU
+18 GT
------------------------
-03 Pitt
-03 @UNC
-31 ND
-34 @UVa
-39 (N) Alabama
-43 Syr

Duke is 0-2 in games decided by 0-3 points ... and consequently is 4-6 rather than 6-4.

If this game were 6-4 Duke against 4-6 WFU, how confident would you be?

That scenario is not *that* much different than what we have (4-6 Duke v. 7-3 WFU).

Assuming that in this scenario we still lost to Syracuse 49-6 the week before...not very confident. A little more than I am in our actual timeline, but not enough to predict a good chance at a win.

That said, some saying about ifs and buts...I think Bill Parcells has something to say on the matter.

HereBeforeCoachK
11-17-2019, 07:14 PM
WFU is 3-1 in games decided by 0-3 points ... and consequently is 7-3 rather than 4-6.

Duke is 0-2 in games decided by 0-3 points ... and consequently is 4-6 rather than 6-4.

If this game were 6-4 Duke against 4-6 WFU, how confident would you be?

That scenario is not *that* much different than what we have (4-6 Duke v. 7-3 WFU).

Put away your numbers and watch the teams play. Duke is a terrible team right now. They are depressed. Perhaps the coaches have lost the room, I don't know. Four losses of 30+ is astonishing....two in a row.

Reilly
11-17-2019, 09:44 PM
The last two years, the worse overall team (per final SRS) won the game.

2011: #98 duke lost to #69 wake by 1

2012: #68 duke BEAT #90 wake by 7

2013: #31 duke BEAT #68 wake by 7

2014: #40 duke BEAT #100 wake by 20

2015: #57 duke BEAT #89 wake by 6

2016: #77 duke lost to #68 wake by 10

2017: #37 duke BEAT #22 wake by 8

2018: #41 duke lost to #60 wake by 52

2019: #73 duke ___ #40 wake by ____

# = final SRS rank

richardjackson199
11-17-2019, 10:22 PM
Hmmm, let's see if RJ199 re-opens his pie bet...

Nope. I'm heeding the advice of my unofficial financial advisor. No pies. Go Duke! :cool:

devildeac
11-17-2019, 10:36 PM
Nope. I'm heeding the advice of my unofficial financial advisor. No pies. Go Duke! :cool:

I guess that really ought to be your pie-nancial advisor :rolleyes::o.

Reilly
11-17-2019, 10:47 PM
... your pie-nancial advisor ...

Hopefully a moderator will shepherd this discussion back to the ballgame ...

budwom
11-18-2019, 08:01 AM
I stopped reading here.

These are not my projections ... these are the computer projections, given all the givens. I do not know (or care, really) whether the computers figure the recency stuff -- maybe some do, to some degree.

There are times when I'm positive that a point spread or computer projection is out of whack -- I really wish I lived in a state w/ legalized sports gambling and knew that ND was only a 7-point favorite over Navy -- I knew ND would destroy them given what I saw at the Duke game.

I did not know Syracuse would destroy Duke. We are struggling, to be sure. That said, if the first FG goes through for Duke; if there's not a contested pick 6; what have you ...

WFU has gotten more love this year than it has deserved, in my opinion. We have shown real toughness and fortitude and even efficiency (granted, it feels so long ago). We are capable, believe it or not. For so many years, we were not capable -- no way, no how. That's not this team -- we actually are (or, were). Whether we will or won't this weekend is a different matter (and you believe we won't -- and we might not -- I agree we may just throw in the towell). But given that we've proven we are somewhat capable during this very season, and WFU is no world beater, and football is a funny sport, and it's not like WFU has stockpiled talent like a ND or Bama, well then, a 30% chance at victory is not that outlandish, is it?

Of course I understand they are not your projections, that's quite clear. I'll just say that I admire your fortitude in continuing to offer them up in the face of overwhelming evidence of their irrelevance....then again, maybe I'll be proven to be pitifully wrong and Duke will compete this weekend.

Reilly
11-18-2019, 12:00 PM
... in the face of overwhelming evidence of their irrelevance ...

On one hand, they are always irrelevant, because they are always wrong if judged by outcomes -- b/c they give each side a chance at winning, when in fact there is just one winner in the end. I find them interesting as I like the patterns and find them generally in the ballpark as they are based on collective experience. I agree that they can be totally out of whack given certain factors (maybe a key injury to a player on a team; or a team that has just fallen off a cliff for some reason w/ no chance of rallying).

The projections do capture the woefulness of our current slide -- when we were 4-2 (and coulda been 5-1) we were in the mid-30s in the SRS, about as high as any Duke team ever under Cut. We are now #73 in the SRS, which is really low. And we'd be an 8-point underdog at WFU per the SRS. interesting that the human-set betting line actually gives Duke a better shot than the SRS computer would (w/ the caveat that the human-set line may be set as it is to induce certain behaviors and so may not be an accurate reflection of what the line-setter actually thinks is the real separation between the two teams -- interesting post I think here on DBR or maybe TDD many years ago re: how the lines are not set simply to split the betting money as is oft reapeated, but sometimes set to induce a lot of action on one side or the other -- in effect, it is the house betting against the majority of the money to reap a bigger payday for itself, but I digress).

We're #73 in the country and 8-point dogs at #40 WFU per the SRS and have only a 30% shot at victory per espn -- that, to me, captures the woe of the recent Duke FB experience and is not overly optimistic or sunny. Rather, it reflects the recent unpleasantness and how far we've fallen. The WFU game should on paper be a pick 'em/50-50 affair most years ... including this year as of a month ago ... but no more. I'm glad we'll be on the road -- I hope there's a bit more energy in the stands that the team can feed off of (even if that energy is in support of WFU). I will speak of the computer projections no more this week and direct energies to tracking down the ACC Network.

Reilly
11-18-2019, 12:28 PM
Losing streaks of 4+ games, Duke football, 2012-present

2012: Duke lost 5 in a row to finish the season -- by 41, 36, 18, 7, and 14 points (including the painful Cincy bowl loss). Streak ended next year w/ Central (and then I-A win @ Memphis with Connette coming in and throwing).

2015: Duke lost 4 in a row, starting with the Halloween horribleness w/ the U -- by 3, 35 (Carolina), 18, and 8. Streak ended when Duke beat Wake.

2017: Duke lost 6 in a row, w/ close ones -- by 25, 7, 7, 7, 21, and 5 (@Army). Streak ended when Duke beat GT.

2019: Duke has lost 4 in a row (and counting), by 34, 3, 31, and 43. Killer 3-point loss to Carolina.

AGDukesky
11-18-2019, 12:35 PM
Put away your numbers and watch the teams play. Duke is a terrible team right now. They are depressed. Perhaps the coaches have lost the room, I don't know. Four losses of 30+ is astonishing...two in a row.

Additionally, Duke just made Syracuse look better than Alabama against us. Think about that...

chrishoke
11-19-2019, 02:18 PM
Wow.




Chronicle Sports

@chroniclesports


Head coach David Cutcliffe said that offensive lineman Casey Holman practiced today (no-contact) and “looks good.” He was listed atop the team’s depth chart at left tackle
12:50 PM · Nov 19, 2019·Twitter for iPhone

devildeac
11-19-2019, 02:33 PM
Wow.




Chronicle Sports

@chroniclesports


Head coach David Cutcliffe said that offensive lineman Casey Holman practiced today (no-contact) and “looks good.” He was listed atop the team’s depth chart at left tackle
12:50 PM · Nov 19, 2019·Twitter for iPhone

That's great news/amazing. Nice find.

Scorp4me
11-19-2019, 11:35 PM
Well I was going to watch the game, but thanks to this thread I don't have to waste my time. It's obvious from reading that Duke has absolutely positively no chance of winning. Not 30% per ESPN, not if Duke had won their two 3 point games and came in 6-4, not based on previous situations in the past. Nope, no way they can win and therefore why bother watching it. So glad I checked here first. Smh.

OldPhiKap
11-20-2019, 03:59 AM
Well I was going to watch the game, but thanks to this thread I don't have to waste my time. It's obvious from reading that Duke has absolutely positively no chance of winning. Not 30% per ESPN, not if Duke had won their two 3 point games and came in 6-4, not based on previous situations in the past. Nope, no way they can win and therefore why bother watching it. So glad I checked here first. Smh.

Since it’s on ACCN, the choice of watching or not was made for me and those in my area.

HereBeforeCoachK
11-20-2019, 06:25 AM
Well I was going to watch the game, but thanks to this thread I don't have to waste my time. It's obvious from reading that Duke has absolutely positively no chance of winning. Not 30% per ESPN, not if Duke had won their two 3 point games and came in 6-4, not based on previous situations in the past. Nope, no way they can win and therefore why bother watching it. So glad I checked here first. Smh.

If I didn't know better, I'd almost think there was a smidgeon of virtue signaling here.....

Bob Green
11-20-2019, 08:00 AM
Jim Sumner Tuesday article:

https://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2019/11/19/20972187/a-fork-in-the-road-for-duke-football-david-cutcliffe-blue-devils-acc-coastal

Devilwin
11-20-2019, 08:56 AM
Nice read, but a bit too optimistic. I want to see them win like everybody else. Just don't see it happening this go round..Unless they can figure out a way to open the dam on this stagnant offense, and teach blocking techniques. Blocking has beeen a big issue. We have some nice, speedy backs, but they cannot run through walls.:mad:

killerleft
11-20-2019, 09:59 AM
Nice read, but a bit too optimistic. I want to see them win like everybody else. Just don't see it happening this go round..Unless they can figure out a way to open the dam on this stagnant offense, and teach blocking techniques. Blocking has beeen a big issue. We have some nice, speedy backs, but they cannot run through walls.:mad:

This is true. Especially when the offensive coordinator is unwilling to dial up anything more unusual than a throw ten yards downfield (which is pretty darned unusual at Duke, I guess). We're tricksy, we are.

75Crazie
11-20-2019, 12:10 PM
You've got to be able to block the pass rushers long enough to give the quarterback enough time to comfortably wait on his downfield receivers to get open and allow him to deliver an accurate throw in order to be successful on a downfield pass. Duke has not come close to satisfying at least two of these prerequisites in these last six games.

HereBeforeCoachK
11-20-2019, 12:58 PM
You've got to be able to block the pass rushers long enough to give the quarterback enough time to comfortably wait on his downfield receivers to get open and allow him to deliver an accurate throw in order to be successful on a downfield pass. Duke has not come close to satisfying at least two of these prerequisites in these last six games.

There are longish passes that can be done with less than 2 seconds.....straight go patterns, ball can be lofted on 3 step drop...ends up being 35-40 yards downfield where the ball lands. Do some of those early, loosen up the defense, and everything gets easier...even if you can't complete one. Something to think about.

Duke had success with that a few times...but they don't use it often and NEVER early. It's a play you need to show early on. Scored at TD versus UVa on it, but it was not enough obviously.

budwom
11-20-2019, 01:01 PM
I understand the pass blocking issues, but I'm still amazed how often we throw four yard passes on downs like third and eight...about a .0000001% chance of success there, if perhaps the cornerback falls down or is stung by a bee.

sagegrouse
11-20-2019, 01:03 PM
I understand the pass blocking issues, but I'm still amazed how often we throw four yard passes on downs like third and eight...about a .0000001% chance of success there, if perhaps the cornerback falls down or is stung by a bee.

Surely someone poetic among us can write an "Ode to the Bubble Screen."

HereBeforeCoachK
11-20-2019, 01:07 PM
I understand the pass blocking issues, but I'm still amazed how often we throw four yard passes on downs like third and eight...about a .0000001% chance of success there, if perhaps the cornerback falls down or is stung by a bee.

That is the biggest heartburn thing...absolutely no reason to throw behind the chains on third down.....not to a tight end who is NOT going to break a tackle and gain extra yards. Done it for many years...Scottie M's offense was TERRIBLE about that.

CameronBornAndBred
11-20-2019, 01:30 PM
I understand the pass blocking issues, but I'm still amazed how often we throw four yard passes on downs like third and eight...about a .0000001% chance of success there, if perhaps the cornerback falls down or is stung by a bee.

And the wisdom of turning 4th and short into 4th and long by executing the play out of the shotgun.

killerleft
11-20-2019, 02:04 PM
There are longish passes that can be done with less than 2 seconds....straight go patterns, ball can be lofted on 3 step drop...ends up being 35-40 yards downfield where the ball lands. Do some of those early, loosen up the defense, and everything gets easier...even if you can't complete one. Something to think about.

Duke had success with that a few times...but they don't use it often and NEVER early. It's a play you need to show early on. Scored at TD versus UVa on it, but it was not enough obviously.

A big complaint of mine, also. The defensive coordinators look at our play calling and probably laugh. If I know what's coming, the defensive coordinator does, too. Heck, I called the fake punt before it happened Saturday. Even the trick plays are predictable, like the jump pass (usually done by a QB, but still).

Sometimes you have to get out of character. Mix things up. If the offensive coordinator has no imagination, get rid of his sorry butt. There's more to coaching than looking at a spread sheet. The best coordinators seem to know what the defense is thinking. Ours seldom seems to get to that point.

Inspired coaching. We need to get us some.

SamHouston
11-20-2019, 09:09 PM
In 2017, Duke was 4-6 and beat GT and WFU at the end of the year. GT ended the year as the #39 best team; WFU #22. Duke finished #37 (w/ an O (0.46) that paled in comparison to its D (6.77)). https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/years/2017-ratings.html

In 2019, Duke is 4-6 and needs to beat WFU and Mia at the end of the year. WFU is #40 best team now; Mia #35. Duke is #73 (w/ an O (-1.83) that pales in comparison to its D (1.99)). https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/years/2019-ratings.html

Let's go beat WFU at night, get payback for last year, and make T'giving weekend interesting.

I have been reading the board's analysis of the Duke v Wake Forest game from last year. Here is my take from that bad, bad game.....Think back to when you were playing sports, acting in a school play, demonstrating a science fair experiment. Think how you would have felt and responded playing in that game last year. Its the last home game, there is nobody in the stands, its super rainy and cold, you just played your most difficult game at Clemson, you have worked like crazy in FB and in school and nobody cared enough to show up! It's just like nobody showing up for the school play! Deep down, you are hurt and tired. Period.

HereBeforeCoachK
11-20-2019, 09:15 PM
I have been reading the board's analysis of the Duke v Wake Forest game from last year. Here is my take from that bad, bad game...Think back to when you were playing sports, acting in a school play, demonstrating a science fair experiment. Think how you would have felt and responded playing in that game last year. Its the last home game, there is nobody in the stands, its super rainy and cold, you just played your most difficult game at Clemson, you have worked like crazy in FB and in school and nobody cared enough to show up! It's just like nobody showing up for the school play! Deep down, you are hurt and tired. Period.

Not only do I think you are right about that...in bold...but I think that speaks to the poor home performance over all. There's almost always a lot of empty seats. I think the Duke players would rather play in a hostile road environment than an empty or half empty WW. I know I would.

(That said, it doesn't fully explain 59-7.....)

OldPhiKap
11-20-2019, 09:20 PM
Surely someone poetic among us can write an "Ode to the Bubble Screen."

Oh bubble pass, bubble pass,
Your beauty doth shine!
Turn our first and ten
Into second and nine.

Why throw the ball downfield
When lateral will do?
Or maybe a swing pass;
Third and long is due.

If only we ran strong
Or stretched out the field
By tossing the long ball
With vigor and zeal

But bubble again, boys
That’s just like a bunt!
So fourth and five cometh
I guess we should punt.

devildeac
11-20-2019, 10:52 PM
Oh bubble pass, bubble pass,
Your beauty doth shine!
Turn our first and ten
Into second and nine.

Why throw the ball downfield
When lateral will do?
Or maybe a swing pass;
Third and long is due.

If only we ran strong
Or stretched out the field
By tossing the long ball
With vigor and zeal

But bubble again, boys
That’s just like a bunt!
So fourth and five cometh
I guess we should punt.

Good golly, Miss Molly, you might have a second career. Put that with some music and find yourself a publisher.

Amazing what you can accomplish when you're not watching volleyball on the new, but not yet improved, ACCN/X. :rolleyes:;)

Reilly
11-20-2019, 10:54 PM
Cut's press conference: https://goduke.com/news/2019/11/19/football-david-cutcliffe-press-conference-quotes-wake-forest.aspx

gep
11-20-2019, 11:11 PM
Not only do I think you are right about that...in bold...but I think that speaks to the poor home performance over all. There's almost always a lot of empty seats. I think the Duke players would rather play in a hostile road environment than an empty or half empty WW. I know I would.

(That said, it doesn't fully explain 59-7...)

Recently, with better results from road games, I also started to think that this is part of it. Loud, passionate fans, even if against you, is better than to play in front of than numerous empty seats...

As far as 59-7... s#!t happens.

Reilly
11-20-2019, 11:15 PM
Duke notes: https://goduke.com/documents/2019/11/19//Game_Notes_Wake_Forest.pdf?id=20048

Wake notes: https://goduke.com/documents/2019/11/19//11_23_Duke.pdf?id=20049

chrishoke
11-21-2019, 10:23 AM
Saturday's uniform - blue helmet, Duke in script, White otherwise.

https://www.facebook.com/DukeFOOTBALL/videos/557034194865811/

CameronBornAndBred
11-21-2019, 10:27 AM
Chilly and wet is the forecast.

sagegrouse
11-21-2019, 10:30 AM
Oh bubble pass, bubble pass,
Your beauty doth shine!
Turn our first and ten
Into second and nine.

Why throw the ball downfield
When lateral will do?
Or maybe a swing pass;
Third and long is due.

If only we ran strong
Or stretched out the field
By tossing the long ball
With vigor and zeal

But bubble again, boys
That’s just like a bunt!
So fourth and five cometh
I guess we should punt.

Will someone spork Poet Phi Kap for me?

chrishoke
11-21-2019, 10:35 AM
Will someone spork Poet Phi Kap for me?

Got you covered.

Reilly
11-21-2019, 10:56 AM
Chilly and wet is the forecast.

Right -- for the beers in the locale with the ACC Network, but what about the weather for the players?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-21-2019, 11:02 AM
Wait, they're still playing football?

CameronBornAndBred
11-21-2019, 11:04 AM
Right -- for the beers in the locale with the ACC Network, but what about the weather for the players?

Chillier and wetter.

killerleft
11-21-2019, 11:11 AM
Chillier and wetter.

Well, they DO have those jet-engine heat blowers down there at the bench area.:) I may show up if the wetter part of the forecast goes away.

duke2x
11-21-2019, 11:55 AM
Cold rain is not a problem at Groves Stadium.

Bob Green
11-22-2019, 05:06 PM
In the useless statistics department, we have a three game winning streak in Winston-Salem. The last Wake victory was in 2011 (24-23).

Tomorrow’s game isn’t about the opponent it is all about Duke. Can we eliminate the turnovers? Clean up the penalties? Stay ahead of the chains and score touchdowns?

If the answer to all three is yes, we have a chance. If not, we don’t.

CameronBlue
11-22-2019, 05:12 PM
In the useless statistics department, we have a three game winning streak in Winston-Salem. The last Wake victory was in 2011 (24-23).

Tomorrow’s game isn’t about the opponent it is all about Duke. Can we eliminate the turnovers? Clean up the penalties? Stay ahead of the chains and score touchdowns?

If the answer to all three is yes, we have a chance. If not, we don’t.

You're either fer us or agin us, get busy livin or get busy dyin...I could be confusing my movie references...in any event, a win would really breathe life into the season and pretty much everyone associated with Duke football.

Let's go fellas, I'm beggin' ya.!! Beat the possessed clergy from Baptist holler.

duke2x
11-22-2019, 06:46 PM
In the useless statistics department, we have a three game winning streak in Winston-Salem. The last Wake victory was in 2011 (24-23).

That game was actually in Durham, and we missed yet another golden opportunity to beat Grobe. We have a 4 game win streak in Groves (2012, 2013, 2015, 2017) thanks to expansion. The last Wake win was the 54-48 shootout in 2010 on 9/11/10.

Bob Green
11-22-2019, 07:00 PM
That game was actually in Durham, and we missed yet another golden opportunity to beat Grobe. We have a 4 game win streak in Groves (2012, 2013, 2015, 2017) thanks to expansion. The last Wake win was the 54-48 shootout in 2010 on 9/11/10.

Thanks for the correction.

Reilly
11-23-2019, 01:37 AM
We've got 2 games here in these next 8 days, including today. Then, possibly, no games for 9 months. Hope Duke plays with a crazy intensity. WFU favored by 6.5 w/ o/u 49.5, so 28-21-ish WFU victory expected. Even though Duke got crushed by ND, I was impressed by how hard we hit that game; not so in the Syracuse game. Bring the intensity. Either you do or you don't. Win tonight, get some payback for last year, and make this next week very interesting and meaningful, football-wise.

Bob Green
11-23-2019, 06:39 AM
Let's Go Duke!

Winston-Salem newspaper on Duke:

https://www.journalnow.com/sports/college/wfu/things-to-know-about-wake-forest-s-opponent-duke/collection_42d8e217-8634-5bbc-8f9d-677b5a308a02.html#1

The article makes it clear in a couple different spots that turnovers have been the difference for Duke in wins and losses.

rtnorthrup
11-23-2019, 09:00 AM
This will be the first time in years that I won't make any effort to watch this game. I cut my cable cord about 7 years ago so I have to go somewhere to watch games. Just dont have it in me tonight.

arnie
11-23-2019, 09:08 AM
This will be the first time in years that I won't make any effort to watch this game. I cut my cable cord about 7 years ago so I have to go somewhere to watch games. Just dont have it in me tonight.

I’ll start watching, but if the team looks lost/lethargic early, I’ll hang it up too.

chrishoke
11-23-2019, 09:54 AM
I will go down with the ship if that's the way it goes.

killerleft
11-23-2019, 10:30 AM
I will go down with the ship if that's the way it goes.

Sigh. Me too.

Bob Green
11-23-2019, 10:52 AM
I will go down with the ship if that's the way it goes.

Yep, I will watch to the end.

peteandpete
11-23-2019, 10:54 AM
Just some ideas: motion, shifting, misdirection, run wide some, variety from the playbook, force the defense to defend the whole field, better clock management and more judicious use of timeouts.....and for God's sake, if you're going to use one, do something other than run between the guards after the timeout, use another qb if necessary, and improve the focus so that we eliminate false starts, etc. Play angry because the team you beat 45-10 may end up winning the division and you owe WF a beat down.

LET'S GO DUKE!!!

rtnorthrup
11-23-2019, 10:57 AM
Just some ideas: motion, shifting, misdirection, run wide some, variety from the playbook, force the defense to defend the whole field, better clock management and more judicious use of timeouts....and for God's sake, if you're going to use one, do something other than run between the guards after the timeout, use another qb if necessary, and improve the focus so that we eliminate false starts, etc. Play angry because the team you beat 45-10 may end up winning the division and you owe WF a beat down.

LET'S GO DUKE!!!

This sums up everything I think about our offense.

Bob Green
11-23-2019, 10:57 AM
Brett Friedlander’s “Five questions to ponder” article:

http://nsjonline.com/article/2019/11/five-questions-to-ponder-before-kickoff-34/

Bob Green
11-23-2019, 11:19 AM
It would be extremely helpful if Josh Blackwell is able to play. His absence hurt last week.

Scott Bracey is another one whose status is unknown. I don’t expect Holman or Kraeling to play so we are thin at OT.

If Coach Cutcliffe and Roper breakout something new with the offense, I wouldn’t mind seeing some Wildcat. Replace Harris with an extra offensive lineman or tight end and direct snap the ball to Jalon Calhoun or Scott Bracey. Both were high school quarterbacks.

I can’t remember Duke using Wildcat since Shaun Wilson against Indiana in Pinstripe Bowl.

chrishoke
11-23-2019, 12:10 PM
Already rainy and cold here in Raleigh. Conditions tonight at the game will be miserable.

richardjackson199
11-23-2019, 12:15 PM
Already rainy and cold here in Raleigh. Conditions tonight at the game will be miserable.

Yep we could have gotten tickets with great seats for $15 but decided not to go. I guess I'm a fair-weather fan, but that weather just doesn't look fun. I hope we find a way to win.

SavDukeGrad
11-23-2019, 01:06 PM
Yep we could have gotten tickets with great seats for $15 but decided not to go. I guess I'm a fair-weather fan, but that weather just doesn't look fun. I hope we find a way to win.

I will watch the entire game, win or lose. But I’m embarrassed to say, I couldn’t bring myself to make the 11 hour (round trip) drive, given the weather forecast and the performance of the team the last few games. So I gave away my 50 yard line tickets. Sigh.

Sure hope I’m wrong about the team’s performance.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-23-2019, 03:58 PM
I’m here in WS along with the players’ parents and other fans and former players. The weather today has been miserable... quite cold and wet. A trip to a nearby Walmart allowed me to get a few more provisions for dealing with the rain.

When the TV camera gives me the opportunity, I’ll wave to the those of you at home! 🏈💙🏈💙

Reilly
11-23-2019, 04:02 PM
This will be the first time in years that I won't make any effort to watch this game. I cut my cable cord about 7 years ago so I have to go somewhere to watch games. Just dont have it in me tonight.


I’m here in WS along with the players’ parents and other fans and former players. The weather today has been miserable... quite cold and wet. A trip to a nearby Walmart allowed me to get a few more provisions for dealing with the rain.

When the TV camera gives me the opportunity, I’ll wave to the those of you at home! 🏈💙🏈💙

Two of my favorite Duke FB posters on DBR ... two different attitudes as this Jekyll-and-Hyde season winds down ... rtnorthrup, to quote the annoying Gretchen Rubin, what choice will give you the bigger life? Find a warm place with cold beer and cheer on the blue & white.

Devilwin
11-23-2019, 04:10 PM
Rain has been sporadic here in High Point since around eleven. 47 degrees now. Not raining at the moment..

Reilly
11-23-2019, 04:10 PM
... I can’t remember Duke using Wildcat since Shaun Wilson against Indiana in Pinstripe Bowl.

I've always loved that when the VT Gobblers use the wildcat they refer to it as the Wild Turkey ...

killerleft
11-23-2019, 04:16 PM
Raining hard as we drive toward W-S from Greensboro. Gonna eat at Little Richard's bbq, a side trip to Stella Brew nearby, then back home to watch on TV.

Go Duke!

devildeac
11-23-2019, 04:27 PM
Raining hard as we drive toward W-S from Greensboro. Gonna eat at Little Richard's bbq, a side trip to Stella Brew nearby, then back home to watch on TV.

Go Duke!

"whop bop b-luma b-lop bam bom"

Bob Green
11-23-2019, 04:30 PM
When the TV camera gives me the opportunity, I’ll wave to the those of you at home! 🏈💙🏈💙

We will wave back!

killerleft
11-23-2019, 05:23 PM
"whop bop b-luma b-lop bam bom"

Wrong Richard. Maybe a Bubba song of some sort.:)

OldPhiKap
11-23-2019, 05:31 PM
I will go down with the ship if that's the way it goes.


https://youtu.be/j-fWDrZSiZs

AustinDevil
11-23-2019, 06:28 PM
We will wave back!

+1! From Dallas. Beat Wake!

AustinDevil
11-23-2019, 06:30 PM
That game was actually in Durham, and we missed yet another golden opportunity to beat Grobe. We have a 4 game win streak in Groves (2012, 2013, 2015, 2017) thanks to expansion. The last Wake win was the 54-48 shootout in 2010 on 9/11/10.

To continue a theme in this thread. It is downright poetic—given a particular recruiting shenanigan—to talk about confusion between the locales!

-jk
11-23-2019, 07:01 PM
DBR Chat (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/misc.php?do=cchatbox) is open!

If it gets a bit slow, refresh the page. If you're on a mobile device, you'll need to select "Blue" at the bottom.

If it's running too fast for you, you can always check out the chat archive (https://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/misc.php?do=ccarc) to catch up.

As always - please follow the DBR Posting Guidelines.

Let's Go Duke!

-jk

Acymetric
11-23-2019, 07:43 PM
Wake is going to be too bummed out to play good football because their stands are so empty, right? I am skeptical.

SavDukeGrad
11-23-2019, 07:46 PM
Wake is going to be too bummed out to play good football because their stands are so empty, right? I am skeptical.

Fingers crossed!

That was a good defensive stand by Duke. Now, if only we could move the ball...

Oh god, not Noah Gray. Does anyone know who’s out for the game? Wondering about Blackwell, Kraeling, etc.

75Crazie
11-23-2019, 07:50 PM
What can you do but laugh?

Acymetric
11-23-2019, 07:51 PM
Fingers crossed!

That was a good defensive stand by Duke. Now, if only we could move the ball...

Oh god, not Noah Gray. Does anyone know who’s out for the game? Wondering about Blackwell, Kraeling, etc.

Just to be clear, I was being extremely sarcastic. Probably should have used the rolly eyes, that's on me ;)

Bob Green
11-23-2019, 08:11 PM
Perhaps that big TD run will jump start our offense!

killerleft
11-23-2019, 08:15 PM
Perhaps that big TD run will jump start our offense!

Quarter one is ours!

arnie
11-23-2019, 08:20 PM
Perhaps that big TD run will jump start our offense!

That’s not gonna happen. But with field conditions, maybe our D shuts them down.

Sixthman
11-23-2019, 08:20 PM
Fumble feels like a three and out, something defense is used to.

killerleft
11-23-2019, 08:26 PM
AJ Reed for three!

arnie
11-23-2019, 08:27 PM
AJ Reed for three!

We’ve had a KO return for TD and long punt return. Been awhile since we’ve done that.

Bob Green
11-23-2019, 08:32 PM
We’ve had a KO return for TD and long punt return. Been awhile since we’ve done that.

Good omens!

kcduke75
11-23-2019, 08:47 PM
While we look for a new OC, could we get a defensive back coach that teaches them to look back for the pass?

Seems like several times per game there are passes that could be intercepted but our defensive backs . . . .

Never mind

PDDuke85
11-23-2019, 08:48 PM
Best part of our DB’s not looking back for the ball is they’re generally right there to make the post catch tackle.

Acymetric
11-23-2019, 08:49 PM
While we look for a new OC, could we get a defensive back coach that teaches them to look back for the pass?

Seems like several times per game there are passes that could be intercepted but our defensive backs . . . .

Never mind

Our DBs are coached not to turn around. Derek Jones has said this explicitly, and explained that not turning around is proper technique and the preferred technique in the NFL.

arnie
11-23-2019, 08:56 PM
We have exactly one 1st down as the half is coming to an end. Total incompetence and we’re in the game (for now) only due to kicking game.

75Crazie
11-23-2019, 08:57 PM
Our DBs are coached not to turn around. Derek Jones has said this explicitly, and explained that not turning around is proper technique and the preferred technique in the NFL.
I'd like a deeper explanation of that. Seems to me, if you do not attempt to turn back, any attempt to defend the pass will result in a face-guarding penalty … and no attempt to defend the pass will result in a catch if the throw is on target.

heyman25
11-23-2019, 08:58 PM
Been watching and I just don't think our offense can score. Quentin Harris keeps making poor decisions and the play calling is lousy.

Dr. Rosenrosen
11-23-2019, 08:59 PM
Why would we not begin to get Katrenick some playing time? He really couldn’t do worse.

anonj
11-23-2019, 08:59 PM
Coming up on 8 quarters of football without a single offensive TD. It’s not like we’ve been facing stellar defenses either...

Acymetric
11-23-2019, 08:59 PM
I'd like a deeper explanation of that. Seems to me, if you do not attempt to turn back, any attempt to defend the pass will result in a face-guarding penalty … and no attempt to defend the pass will result in a catch if the throw is on target.

I have no idea where I saw the quote. It was certainly shocking to me when I read it (after years of complaining about our DBs not turning around).

DU82
11-23-2019, 09:03 PM
I have no idea where I saw the quote. It was certainly shocking to me when I read it (after years of complaining about our DBs not turning around).

At the Alabama game, their fans made the same comment about their DBs. So it appears to be a common technique.

Bob Green
11-23-2019, 09:06 PM
Three first downs and 115 yards total offense in the 1st half with two of the first downs coming in the last 30 seconds of the half.

Special teams play is keeping us in the game.

Offense remains impotent.

chrishoke
11-23-2019, 09:07 PM
I have no idea where I saw the quote. It was certainly shocking to me when I read it (after years of complaining about our DBs not turning around).

He has said they are taught to react to the hands of the receiver as they initially move to catch the ball.

YmoBeThere
11-23-2019, 09:07 PM
None of our DBs will be playing in the NFL.

TheDevilMadeMeDoIt
11-23-2019, 09:19 PM
I don’t understand why the kick returner called for a fair catch. It appeared to me he could have run for several yards. I think I saw Cut applauding the fair catch. It seems we gamble in all the wrong situations, like going for it on fourth earlier in the game deep in our own territory. Then we fail to take advantage of making an effort to field a kickoff. I certainly profess no great expertise about football but I do not believe we play the percentages correctly.

While I’m gripping, my feed on the stupid ACC network is at least 5 minutes behind real time. What the hell is that about?

Devilwin
11-23-2019, 09:20 PM
I'd like a deeper explanation of that. Seems to me, if you do not attempt to turn back, any attempt to defend the pass will result in a face-guarding penalty … and no attempt to defend the pass will result in a catch if the throw is on target.

Right. Whoever said they are not supposed to look back is full of it.:confused:

chrishoke
11-23-2019, 09:21 PM
None of our DBs will be playing in the NFL.

Ross Cockrell says hi. (I know you said will)

arnie
11-23-2019, 09:26 PM
Cut just said we’ve played well intermittently on offense so far. What’s he smoking. And as I’m typing our DB burned. At least he never saw the ball.

Acymetric
11-23-2019, 09:28 PM
Cut just said we’ve played well intermittently on offense so far. What’s he smoking. And as I’m typing our DB burned. At least he never saw the ball.

"I can't wait to see what will happen"

I could definitely have waited for that.

paris95
11-23-2019, 09:34 PM
Cut just said we’ve played well intermittently on offense so far. What’s he smoking. And as I’m typing our DB burned. At least he never saw the ball.

And let the second half rout begin. I hope I’m wrong but this has the makings of our signature second half blowout.

PDDuke85
11-23-2019, 09:40 PM
I couldn’t be any happier than I am for A. J. Reed

killerleft
11-23-2019, 09:40 PM
AJ Reed! MVP this year??:o

paris95
11-23-2019, 09:44 PM
I couldn’t be any happier than I am for A. J. Reed

No doubt. He battled back and has become one of the best kickers in the ACC. Well done AJ.

loran16
11-23-2019, 09:52 PM
I know Cut feels loyalty, and Maybe Katrenick is no good, but Harris is just not an ACC-level quarterback, I'm sorry. It's just sad to watch at this point.

heyman25
11-23-2019, 09:56 PM
Harris has had a really bad season wide performance. He makes too many bad decisions. Our plays are displaying the impotence of our offense. If Cutcliffe does not bring new coaches next season, Duke football will not get any better.:mad:

Acymetric
11-23-2019, 09:58 PM
Defense has already been on the field just shy of 30 minutes already. Offense has to give those guys a break. 196 yards to 397.

75Crazie
11-23-2019, 10:01 PM
Two downfield passes in a row? Who is this team?

Bob Green
11-23-2019, 10:04 PM
We need a touchdown desperately. The outcome of this game is still up in the air but we must score now.

Acymetric
11-23-2019, 10:05 PM
We need a touchdown desperately. The outcome of this game is still up in the air but we must score now.

Nice timing!

75Crazie
11-23-2019, 10:05 PM
Ask, and ye receive!

Bob Green
11-23-2019, 10:05 PM
There it is - TOUCHDOWN!

arnie
11-23-2019, 10:05 PM
Nice timing!

Say it again

arnie
11-23-2019, 10:07 PM
There it is - TOUCHDOWN!

An offensive drive for a TD- didn’t see that coming

billy
11-23-2019, 10:07 PM
WTF happened on that last series with the play calls - did Cut take over the reins? Very different than the last several games imho

heyman25
11-23-2019, 10:10 PM
Just as I post a negative on Harris he finally makes a very good play. Touchdown Gray!

killerleft
11-23-2019, 10:12 PM
Is the defense too tired? We sure need a stop.

YmoBeThere
11-23-2019, 10:13 PM
WTF happened on that last series with the play calls - did Cut take over the reins? Very different than the last several games imho

Exactly what I was thinking...

75Crazie
11-23-2019, 10:13 PM
Unfortunately, the defense has suddenly forgotten how to tackle.

Acymetric
11-23-2019, 10:18 PM
Is the defense too tired? We sure need a stop.


Unfortunately, the defense has suddenly forgotten how to tackle.

Defense has been on the field for like 35 minutes already with a quarter yet to go. They are worn out because we are losing the TOP badly because our offense can't sustain a drive.

killerleft
11-23-2019, 10:19 PM
Please be a fumble.

Stray Gator
11-23-2019, 10:22 PM
Unfortunately, the defense has suddenly forgotten how to tackle.

There's nothing "sudden" about it. Wake ball carriers have been breaking tackles and routinely dragging Duke would-be tacklers for an extra 2-4 yards after first contact all night. It appears that one of the more dramatic differences between these two teams is the effectiveness of the respective strength and conditioning programs.

killerleft
11-23-2019, 10:23 PM
Good defense! I didn't think we'd get the ball with a chance to take the lead. So let's go get it!

75Crazie
11-23-2019, 10:23 PM
Defense has been on the field for like 35 minutes already with a quarter yet to go. They are worn out because we are losing the TOP badly because our offense can't sustain a drive.
I realized immediately after I posted that that I was being unfairly snide there … your response is right on.

paris95
11-23-2019, 10:24 PM
Unfortunately, the defense has suddenly forgotten how to tackle.

That, and our safeties, particularly Singleton, are very aggressive in supporting the run. It leads to tackles for loss, but also leaves them out of position to make a big play saving tackles sometimes.

CameronBlue
11-23-2019, 10:24 PM
Ohhhh HELL Yeah!!!!!!!!!!

killerleft
11-23-2019, 10:24 PM
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

arnie
11-23-2019, 10:24 PM
That, and our safeties, particularly Singleton, are very aggressive in supporting the run. It leads to tackles for loss, but also leaves them out of position to make a big play saving tackles sometimes.

Unbelievable!

loran16
11-23-2019, 10:24 PM
What a kickoff return day!?!?!??!!?

Bob Green
11-23-2019, 10:25 PM
DYNAMITE!

Philyaw-Johnson with another kick-off return for TD.

arnie
11-23-2019, 10:26 PM
No one touched him on either return?

SavDukeGrad
11-23-2019, 10:27 PM
Unbelievable!

buddy
11-23-2019, 10:27 PM
Great, except D got no rest.

paris95
11-23-2019, 10:27 PM
How ‘bout them special teams??!? That’s one way to put points on the board. More reliable than the offense! Nicely done KO return team!

loran16
11-23-2019, 10:28 PM
So uhhhhhh any chance Wake kicks to Philyaw-Johnson again?

75Crazie
11-23-2019, 10:29 PM
Great, except D got no rest.
I think their tank is on E.

killerleft
11-23-2019, 10:29 PM
We're getting real good at killing momentum.

paris95
11-23-2019, 10:30 PM
I think their tank is on E.

Yeah hot knife through warm butter there. Terrible tackling and not moving our feet to get in front. Both signs of being tired.

ChrisP
11-23-2019, 10:30 PM
Ugh...was that 2 or 3 plays to go the length of the field?

75Crazie
11-23-2019, 10:32 PM
Why was that a late hit?

Sixthman
11-23-2019, 10:36 PM
Why was that a late hit?

Difficult to figure. He would have arrived to make the play had the ball not been deflected.

paris95
11-23-2019, 10:37 PM
Man I hate this offense. Two special teams TDs covering up another terrible offensive performance. Now we have to put the tired defense back out there.

Anyone see that Louisville lit up that same Syracuse defense that we couldn’t muster a TD against?

devildeac
11-23-2019, 10:44 PM
AJ Reed! MVP this year??:o

Austin Parker or now, Philyaw-Johnson.

devildeac
11-23-2019, 10:47 PM
ToP now 38:25 to 18:08

Offense 613 yds to 267

Cut needs to make some major coaching changes.

Son of Jarhead
11-23-2019, 10:48 PM
Can we get a freakin' flag for holding on Wake? They have been holding all night in the interior.

killerleft
11-23-2019, 10:48 PM
Ha! They think they've got us beat.

PDDuke85
11-23-2019, 10:52 PM
ToP now 38:25 to 18:08

Offense 613 yds to 267

Cut needs to make some major coaching changes.

Offensive Coordinator
Offensive Line
Strength and Conditioning
Defensive Secondary

Anything else?

Bob Green
11-23-2019, 10:54 PM
We lost but the team competed hard so perhaps we can build off this performance.

heyman25
11-23-2019, 10:55 PM
Can't even get off a pass. Harris tried, but once again can't make a play.

devildeac
11-23-2019, 10:58 PM
618 yds to 290

39:33 ToP to 20:27

3 TO

Inept.

knicknut
11-23-2019, 10:59 PM
What really got me was seeing the Duke players laughing joyfully with the Wake players after the game ended.

I understand a lot of these guys know each other from HS football, camps, etc. But if they're so willing to be gleeful seconds after losing a winnable game, perhaps I care too much about their shortcomings from my couch?

WakeDevil
11-23-2019, 11:00 PM
FIU 30 Miami 24

HereBeforeCoachK
11-23-2019, 11:02 PM
What really got me was seeing the Duke players laughing joyfully with the Wake players after the game ended.

I understand a lot of these guys know each other from HS football, camps, etc. But if they're so willing to be gleeful seconds after losing a winnable game, perhaps I care too much about their shortcomings from my couch?

I must admit, I felt the same way seeing that.

Bob Green
11-23-2019, 11:02 PM
Coach Cutcliffe needs to fire multiple assistant coaches but I am confident he will not. Next year will be very similar to this year unless we catch lightning in a bottle with the freshman QB.

HereBeforeCoachK
11-23-2019, 11:03 PM
Cut doesn't like Clawson apparently.....

Devilwin
11-23-2019, 11:11 PM
I believe in sportsmanship with anybody in the league but Wake. Their fans are the worst bunch of sports fans anywhere. (even worse than you know who) Booing injured players is just too much for me. I would have probably gotten locked up there tonight..:mad:
Oh, and more of the same from the team..

duke09hms
11-23-2019, 11:42 PM
Cut doesn't like Clawson apparently....

He apparently is fine with being owned by Clawson

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-23-2019, 11:54 PM
I believe in sportsmanship with anybody in the league but Wake. Their fans are the worst bunch of sports fans anywhere. (even worse than you know who) Booing injured players is just too much for me. I would have probably gotten locked up there tonight..:mad:
Oh, and more of the same from the team..
The Wake fans thought our guys weren’t really hurt... that they were pretending to be hurt to delay Wake’s hurry up offense. Their fans booed our guys repeatedly. Some were spitting beer over the wall while trying to pick fights in the stands.

Weather conditions made the surface slicker even with cleats for that type of surface.

richardjackson199
11-23-2019, 11:59 PM
I believe in sportsmanship with anybody in the league but Wake. Their fans are the worst bunch of sports fans anywhere. (even worse than you know who) Booing injured players is just too much for me. I would have probably gotten locked up there tonight..:mad:
Oh, and more of the same from the team..

Trust me Devilwin. You have no idea how right you are.

At halftime the weather got much better in Winston-Salem where I live, so we drove out to the game. I walked up, but they wouldn't let me in since I didn't have a ticket and the ticket office had closed. Some fans leaving the game wearing all Duke gear gave us their tickets, so we went to the seated section printed on the ticket. It was evidently on the Wake Forest side.

I'm a pretty loud fan normally, but I was being quiet because I didn't have much to cheer about. When Duke scored the touchdown to take the lead, I raised my hands and yelled loudly to cheer for Duke. I didn't say anything bad about Wake. A Wake Fan literally got up in my face and tried to start a fight with me. I just stood there, and his buddies pulled him away and calmed him down.

A little later in 4th quarter, a Duke player went down for injury and a different Wake Fan started yelling at me that "Typical Duke you are faking injuries to stall! I told him I'm just standing here watching the game. He continued to berate me the rest of the game that it was an obvious pattern that Duke was faking injuries and cheating." I just said nothing because after the first guy tried to literally fight me, I was uncomfortable and my wife was scared.

After they stopped us at the end, and the game was clearly over, we just started to walk up the bleachers to leave. A 3rd Wake fan shoved me and yelled "Get out of here! Y'all have a great team this year!"

We're never going to another game at Wake. And I have a graduate degree from Wake. My wife works there. I've never been around a more hostile, and I mean hostile group of fans. Wow.

Devilwin
11-24-2019, 07:14 AM
Trust me Devilwin. You have no idea how right you are.

At halftime the weather got much better in Winston-Salem where I live, so we drove out to the game. I walked up, but they wouldn't let me in since I didn't have a ticket and the ticket office had closed. Some fans leaving the game wearing all Duke gear gave us their tickets, so we went to the seated section printed on the ticket. It was evidently on the Wake Forest side.

I'm a pretty loud fan normally, but I was being quiet because I didn't have much to cheer about. When Duke scored the touchdown to take the lead, I raised my hands and yelled loudly to cheer for Duke. I didn't say anything bad about Wake. A Wake Fan literally got up in my face and tried to start a fight with me. I just stood there, and his buddies pulled him away and calmed him down.

A little later in 4th quarter, a Duke player went down for injury and a different Wake Fan started yelling at me that "Typical Duke you are faking injuries to stall! I told him I'm just standing here watching the game. He continued to berate me the rest of the game that it was an obvious pattern that Duke was faking injuries and cheating." I just said nothing because after the first guy tried to literally fight me, I was uncomfortable and my wife was scared.

After they stopped us at the end, and the game was clearly over, we just started to walk up the bleachers to leave. A 3rd Wake fan shoved me and yelled "Get out of here! Y'all have a great team this year!"

We're never going to another game at Wake. And I have a graduate degree from Wake. My wife works there. I've never been around a more hostile, and I mean hostile group of fans. Wow.

Man. That's incredible. My son and I almost went. Probably good we didn't. Knowing us we certainly would've "given you a hand", so to speak. Wake is the little bratty brother of the Big 4. Rarely winning any titles in anything has jaded them. I feel bad you guys went out in the mess and were treated like that. Tell you what. Next time give us a call. We haven't been arrested in years..

HereBeforeCoachK
11-24-2019, 07:23 AM
We're never going to another game at Wake. And I have a graduate degree from Wake. My wife works there. I've never been around a more hostile, and I mean hostile group of fans. Wow.

All I can say is wow. There must be a real angry insecure thing running through Wake fans. Screw em. Glad they had a Wade stadium size crowd experience yesterday. Enjoy Danny Manning's huge buy out.

arnie
11-24-2019, 07:29 AM
All I can say is wow. There must be a real angry insecure thing running through Wake fans. Screw em. Glad they had a Wade stadium size crowd experience yesterday. Enjoy Danny Manning's huge buy out.

I suspect a lot of WF hatred is directed at Coach K’s 40 year success. If I wear any Duke stuff in the Triangle, I get snide comments. Restaurant waiters are the worst and guess they don’t understand how tips work.

Anyway, the best approach is to pity them.

HereBeforeCoachK
11-24-2019, 07:37 AM
I suspect a lot of WF hatred is directed at Coach K’s 40 year success. If I wear any Duke stuff in the Triangle, I get snide comments. Restaurant waiters are the worst and guess they don’t understand how tips work.

Anyway, the best approach is to pity them.

I think you have a point with the envy/hatred of K and Duke's 40 years of hoops success. Wake FB will never equal Duke BB, and Wake doesn't even dominate golf any more, and their basketball program is a dumpster fire with no financial way out for years to come. Suddenly, I'm happy with all that. SCREWEM.

Sixthman
11-24-2019, 07:54 AM
Coach Cutcliffe needs to fire multiple assistant coaches but I am confident he will not. Next year will be very similar to this year unless we catch lightning in a bottle with the freshman QB.

It was shocking how much stronger Wake players appeared to be. Until tonight, I had not included strength and conditioning on the list of needed coaching changes.

Bob Green
11-24-2019, 08:09 AM
It was shocking how much stronger Wake players appeared to be. Until tonight, I had not included strength and conditioning on the list of needed coaching changes.

S & C Coach Noel Durfey has a great reputation. I would not include him on a list of needed coaching changes.

Sixthman
11-24-2019, 09:50 AM
S & C Coach Noel Durfey has a great reputation. I would not include him on a list of needed coaching changes.


So presuming that he's doing a great job, why did Wake run through so many tackles last night? Technique? Desire? Better cleats? The Wake game is a particularly good context in which to ask this, because they've got a lot of 3 stars out there on the field.

szstark
11-24-2019, 09:52 AM
Trust me Devilwin. You have no idea how right you are.

At halftime the weather got much better in Winston-Salem where I live, so we drove out to the game. I walked up, but they wouldn't let me in since I didn't have a ticket and the ticket office had closed. Some fans leaving the game wearing all Duke gear gave us their tickets, so we went to the seated section printed on the ticket. It was evidently on the Wake Forest side.

I'm a pretty loud fan normally, but I was being quiet because I didn't have much to cheer about. When Duke scored the touchdown to take the lead, I raised my hands and yelled loudly to cheer for Duke. I didn't say anything bad about Wake. A Wake Fan literally got up in my face and tried to start a fight with me. I just stood there, and his buddies pulled him away and calmed him down.

A little later in 4th quarter, a Duke player went down for injury and a different Wake Fan started yelling at me that "Typical Duke you are faking injuries to stall! I told him I'm just standing here watching the game. He continued to berate me the rest of the game that it was an obvious pattern that Duke was faking injuries and cheating." I just said nothing because after the first guy tried to literally fight me, I was uncomfortable and my wife was scared.

After they stopped us at the end, and the game was clearly over, we just started to walk up the bleachers to leave. A 3rd Wake fan shoved me and yelled "Get out of here! Y'all have a great team this year!"

We're never going to another game at Wake. And I have a graduate degree from Wake. My wife works there. I've never been around a more hostile, and I mean hostile group of fans. Wow.
Apparently none of you ever attended a Maryland game.

Reilly
11-24-2019, 09:57 AM
... So presuming that he's doing a great job, why did Wake run through so many tackles last night? ...

I'm wondering how much WFU's unusual O had to do with it -- it's like the plays would 'stop' momentarily, then get going again. Granted, we should've just kept coming and been the aggressor throughout the duration of the play, but it seemed like we'd get stood up as the play paused, then Wake was running downhill at us as we were upright/moving backwards.

TheDevilMadeMeDoIt
11-24-2019, 09:58 AM
Does anyone else think the horrible call at the end of the UNC games sunk the season? It seems to me we never recovered emotionally. Harris wasn’t great, but he made some plays up to that point, including what should have been a game winning drive. Since then the offense has done nothing!

TheDevilMadeMeDoIt
11-24-2019, 09:59 AM
Maybe we need a good sports psychologist for the team.

Bob Green
11-24-2019, 10:36 AM
Not sure why I feel compelled to continue venting but I do so I will. Once again, we struggled to throw the ball to our wide receivers. A look at completed passes reveals:

Tight End/Running Backs: 9 receptions for 91 yards and 1 TD

Wide Receivers: 5 receptions for 72 yards

75Crazie
11-24-2019, 10:41 AM
I'm wondering how much WFU's unusual O had to do with it -- it's like the plays would 'stop' momentarily, then get going again. Granted, we should've just kept coming and been the aggressor throughout the duration of the play, but it seemed like we'd get stood up as the play paused, then Wake was running downhill at us as we were upright/moving backwards.
I noticed that as well. I don't think I've ever seen anything like it before … almost as if the plays went into slow motion for a bit and then back to normal.

cspan37421
11-24-2019, 11:11 AM
Maybe we need a good sports psychologist for the team.

We must begin by asking … ”What is losing?” Losing is a disease … as contagious as polio.

rtnorthrup
11-24-2019, 12:15 PM
Coach Cutcliffe needs to fire multiple assistant coaches but I am confident he will not. Next year will be very similar to this year unless we catch lightning in a bottle with the freshman QB.

Not disagreeing with you,but if Cut doesn't change first, replacing assistant coaches won't change much. We have had 2 must win, kitchen sink games, and we played as conservatively as possible. That comes from the top. I think it's time to shake up the staff, but Cut really needs to look at how he has managed the last 2.5 years and make some top down corrections.

Bob Green
11-24-2019, 12:26 PM
Not disagreeing with you,but if Cut doesn't change first, replacing assistant coaches won't change much. We have had 2 must win, kitchen sink games, and we played as conservatively as possible. That comes from the top. I think it's time to shake up the staff, but Cut really needs to look at how he has managed the last 2.5 years and make some top down corrections.

Shaking up the staff results in fresh faces with fresh ideas but you are correct that Coach Cutcliffe has to be open to implementing those fresh ideas. If not, change will not occur.

Acymetric
11-24-2019, 01:03 PM
An article from the Wake perspective that echos some of my concerns about the direction of the program.

https://www.greensboro.com/sports/ed-hardin-wake-defeats-duke-on-a-dark-and-stormy/article_6a663c7e-0e70-11ea-8761-7b3376b7c622.html

CameronBornAndBred
11-24-2019, 01:17 PM
An article from the Wake perspective that echos some of my concerns about the direction of the program.

https://www.greensboro.com/sports/ed-hardin-wake-defeats-duke-on-a-dark-and-stormy/article_6a663c7e-0e70-11ea-8761-7b3376b7c622.html

That is an honest look. Crossing fingers that Cut & Co find a way to turn the tide.

paris95
11-24-2019, 02:36 PM
Not disagreeing with you,but if Cut doesn't change first, replacing assistant coaches won't change much. We have had 2 must win, kitchen sink games, and we played as conservatively as possible. That comes from the top. I think it's time to shake up the staff, but Cut really needs to look at how he has managed the last 2.5 years and make some top down corrections.

This is a really good point. While I certainly agree with others that it’s time, actually a bit past time, to make some change to the offensive staff, if Cut doesn’t make some philosophical changes as well, it won’t have the same impact as coaching changes alone. To be clear, I think we need changes in both the who and the how/what when it comes to offensive coaching. The desired pressure on Cut that many have spoken of is due to our collective, and historically proven, fear that Cut will just chalk this year up to execution and ride with the same team and strategy into next year rather than looking the other strategic issues as well.

HereBeforeCoachK
11-24-2019, 02:36 PM
That is an honest look. Crossing fingers that Cut & Co find a way to turn the tide.

Very honest look. This thing is indeed on the verge of slipping away from Cutcliffe for good. As the writer said, it's much harder to turn it around the second time than it is the first time. When you're 65, I'd say it's even harder.

paris95
11-24-2019, 02:40 PM
That is an honest look. Crossing fingers that Cut & Co find a way to turn the tide.

Ominous closing, but very true if we don’t get the ship turned in the right direction. The pieces are here to turn it rather quickly (better players overall, no dominant teams in the division, etc) but some changes need to be made soon before those factors change. Thanks for sharing the article.

dm9e24
11-24-2019, 04:23 PM
An article from the Wake perspective that echos some of my concerns about the direction of the program.

https://www.greensboro.com/sports/ed-hardin-wake-defeats-duke-on-a-dark-and-stormy/article_6a663c7e-0e70-11ea-8761-7b3376b7c622.html

Ed Hardin writes columns covering primarily the big 4 but also all of the ACC, so I don't see this article as being from the Wake perspective. I see it has an honest assessment of two programs he has been watching for at least 30 years and how, right now, they are heading in opposite directions.

I thought it interesting his comment about Cut needing players. That also echos the concerns on recruiting reflected in post on this board.

I, too, am 65 and have seen 9 or 10 winning seasons at Duke since I was 15. Or, maybe more accurately, far more losing than winning. Maybe it is time to face reality and set expectations as low as Duke has provided in the last 50 years.

Thank goodness for basketball, with Bubas and Krzyzewski, lacrosse recently and the great possibility that Pollard is building a K like program in baseball. While we are at it, women's golf, although it is not the spectators sport that the other 3 are until the NCAA's.

And the fact that my alma mater, App State has been consistently good in football for the better part of 19 years in a row now. Hard to beat the game atmosphere in Boone. While i have had season tickets since the Red Wilson years, trips to Boone have trumped going to Wallace Wade more and more the last 6 years if there is a conflict.

Ed's take on the difficulties of sustaining success at small private schools are pretty sobering.

devildeac
11-24-2019, 10:51 PM
Ominous closing, but very true if we don’t get the ship turned in the right direction. The pieces are here to turn it rather quickly (better players overall, no dominant teams in the division, etc) but some changes need to be made soon before those factors change. Thanks for sharing the article.

Ominous indeed:

"A few years in this series is a blink of an eye. But right now, Wake looks like Duke did just a few years ago. And Duke looks to be on the brink of disaster."

Bob Green
11-25-2019, 04:21 PM
No surprise that Damond Philyaw-Johnson has been named ACC Specialist of the Week. :cool:

arnie
11-25-2019, 05:27 PM
No surprise that Damond Philyaw-Johnson has been named ACC Specialist of the Week. :cool:

Yep, special teams have been terrific this year, a pleasant surprise. What a difference this level of Sp. Teams would have made a few years ago when we had an offense.

Son of Jarhead
11-25-2019, 11:27 PM
I'm wondering how much WFU's unusual O had to do with it -- it's like the plays would 'stop' momentarily, then get going again. Granted, we should've just kept coming and been the aggressor throughout the duration of the play, but it seemed like we'd get stood up as the play paused, then Wake was running downhill at us as we were upright/moving backwards.


I noticed that as well. I don't think I've ever seen anything like it before … almost as if the plays went into slow motion for a bit and then back to normal.

There offense seems predicated on that pause allowing their lineman, all bunched up tight, to grasp defenders, then when the running back finally does pick a hole or bounce to the outside, they can get away with holding briefly until the runner is past. Was driving me crazy all game, had me yelling at my TV... "%#@$&^ refs!! Call a %#@$ hold would ya'!!

On another part of this whole discussion, I don't think we can overlook how it effected our offense when our starting center Jack Wohlabaugh went down. That, and other nagging o-line injuries (plus the loss of Brittian Brown at RB), really set our offense back greatly.

Devilwin
11-26-2019, 07:02 AM
Glad to see I wasn't the only one seeing all those uncalled holding calls..